While I agree that there are men and churches out there that overstep the authority of the Bible, I do think that it is easy to over think things. We need to be careful to make sure that everything we do follows Biblical authority and not an opinion. We shouldn't make a law that God didn't establish, no break laws that He did make.
You make an excellent point. Romans 14 and 15, and 14:13 in particular, have been the problem. When does our freedom in Christ become sin because we have put a stumblingblock in front of somebody else? Where the Book speaks is a good guide, it is the silent parts that often lead us to trouble.
And where the New Testament is silent, we should respect that silence and not second-guess the NT by implementing that which the NT does not authorize, as far as worship and the Gospel are concerned. It is a mistake to assume that "Whatever the New Testament does not forbid by name is fair game." This is NOT what "freedom in Christ" means. The "freedom" means release from the shackles of the Law of Moses, as explained in Gal. 5:1-6. We do NOT have the freedom to go out on a limb and implement what the NT does not authorize.
Then many would argue, "What about hymnals and air conditioning systems and PA systems and chalk boards and bathrooms and other 'modern' conveniences in church? The NT does not specifically 'authorize' them, so shouldn't we do away with them as well?" "Modern" conveniences do not alter the basic plan of spiritual worship and preaching the Gospel as outlined in the NT. Structuring worship such that it appeals to the world and makes the Church more like the world alters the NT plan. For example, bringing in worldly rock bands and glitzy performers to make "services" more appealing to unbelievers alters the NT plan and makes the Church more like the world. Churches then take on the look and feel of worldly rock concerts, worldly theatres, and worldly performing arts centers. The Church MUST NOT imitate the practices of world. See Romans 12:2, James 4:4, 1 John 2:15-17.
Even "not normal" people must learn to follow the NT to the letter. This is simply obedience. Yet those lusting after their "freedom" and who do not wish to follow the NT completely will see this as "legalism."
You really need to get off that "not normal" hobby horse.
Did I not say, "it is the silent parts that often lead us to trouble?"
Have you read any post where I have advocated a certain style or method of worship? Any place where I have said "disobey the New testament?"
Our freedom in Christ extends only to the point that we have become slaves to righteousness. It is like Bob Dylan said, "You gotta serve somebody." As new creatures in Christ, we have simply chosen who our master is. When we were unforgiven sinners, we had no choice.
BTW: In my experience it has always been the legalists who have caused more damage to the Body of Christ than the liberals. By the time the liberals have gained control, there's usually not much left. They are more like vultures looking for carion than predators looking for the kill.
Since my “Silence Parts” post did not address Rick directly, neither did it even mention Rick, it was aimed at the general audience. I try to keep my posts in the third person, so that folks, whether or not they are “not normal” (my groom is bringing around the hobby horse) won’t get paranoid and take things too personally, nor jump to the conclusion that I am specifically focusing on them to jump down their throat. But apparently there are exceptions.
Now to mount that royal “not normal” hobby horse and gallop off (Hi-yo, Silver! Away!) Recall that Rick first taught us that no one, not since the Garden of Eden, has ever been “normal,” because everyone apparently has some kind of psychological quirk, no matter how subtle. Apparently, a person only becomes “abnormal” when those quirks dominate a person’s life, or worse. But if everyone is “not normal,” by strict definition, they ALL must be “abnormal,” which is the antonym or opposite of “normal.” Let’s not try to change the dictionary and say that “not normal” does not mean “abnormal.” “Not normal” is synonymous with “abnormal.” On the other hand, if literally everyone since the Garden of Eden has been/is “not normal” (let’s cut to the chase and say “abnormal”) as Rick teaches, then it is the “norm” or “normal” to be “not normal/abnormal” by virtue of having a few psychological quirks. It follows that if it is “normal” for everyone to have a few subtle, psychological quirks, then it is completely false to say that everyone is “not normal/abnormal” (Hope Tonto’s hobby horse is as fast as mine, because we’re really soarin’ here, folks! )
Now if literally everyone since the Garden of Eden has been/is “abnormal” (remember, we’ve already cut to the chase), according to the confines of Rick’s teaching, then we must conclude that biblical figures such as Moses, Sampson, Jesus, and Paul (and many others, of course) all had their own psychological quirks, making them ALL “abnormal” (OK, we’ll say “not normal” to keep Rick happy). Moses had the “quirk” of hearing a disembodied Voice speaking to him from Mt. Sinai (folks have been committed for “hearing voices”); Sampson had the “quirk” of believing that his long hair would make him strong; Jesus had the “quirk” of believing Himself to be the Son of God; and Paul had a similar “quirk” to that of Moses: he heard a disembodied Voice but did see a brilliant light on the Damascus road (the latter some would say was just a first-century UFO).
“Stuff and nonsense!!” you (the general reader) may say. Remember, all this nonsense derives from Rick saying that not one of us is normal, or that all of us are not normal. Good grief! Sounds like something from the Twilight Zone! My conclusion is that Rick has spent far too much time observing those whom he thinks are universally “not normal,” when in fact most of us are just plain ordinary NORMAL folks trying to make it in life. In a previous post, Rick confessed that he could be “all wet.” Well, I really can't disagree with that.
BTW, like Kent’s famous “Flying Leap” line, I‘ll try to immortalize Rick’s “Not Normal” line in my future stories and parables.
Theologically, Rick seems to be on the right track, except it's better to quote Scripture directly than folks like Bob Dylan or other celebrities. Following the philosophies of celebrities and others in the limelight is what can make the Church like the world. Once, I heard a Baptist pastor quote St. Augustine. No need for that. Aren't the tenets of the NT much superior to those of mortal theologians, many of whom don't half believe the NT anyway?
Now psychologically, that's another story, the path of which has already been well trodden into muck.
All truth is God's truth, no matter who says it. Romans 6:18 tells us about being slaves to righteousness. Romans 6 in general informs us that "you gotta serve somebody." The fact is, Dylan was scripturally correct when he wrote that song.
Re: not normal
It is obvious that some people either don't get what I wrote, or continue to be intentionally obtuse. I would be careful about drawing conclusions, however, when it comes to biblical figures, but they all did have their quirks. Moses' quirk was not hearing God's voice, but rather willful disobedience that kept him out of the promised land. Samson's quirk was pillowtalk. Jesus had no faults or quirks, I think we all know that. There was only one who was perfect from beginning to end. You can argue that all you want, I don't care.
If we can't quote and learn from others, why even have a dialogue?
If Rick hasn't figured it out yet (or won't admit it), here's some "truth" for him: The entire "Hobby Horse" post was created as a gigantic spoof against Rick's wild idea that, psychologically, no one is normal, and that this abnormality even goes all the way back to the Garden of Eden. Incredible! It's only ideas like that which are in "truth" NOT NORMAL. Talk about obtuse? Rick clings with all his might to his preposterous, negative belief that no one is normal about as hard as I hold to the postive belief that most folks are quite well, happy, healthy, with NO psychological problems, and are thus NORMAL. When one spends his time among those presumed to be not normal, he develops a warped or skewed idea about the entire world. Thus, Rick may need a very long vacation, an extended sabbatical, or just a lotta time off.
Whatever happens, though, Rick's "Not Normal" line will live on, and that's a spoof for sure!
We've now ridden this Hobby Horse to death and flogged the corpse several times over. Time to bury the carcass and "ease on down, ease on down the road."
"Dialogue" consists of mixing and stirring assorted opinions and beliefs from folks who may or may not know the TRUTH of Scripture. There is no "I think the NT means this or that." It's what the NT SAYS that is TRUTH. But to the psychologist or other "trained observer," following exactly what the NT says is probably being "obtuse."
And a Spirit visited Rick one night in a dream as he tossed and turned over planning yet another rebuttal to Dr. Crump.
"Riiiick! Riiick!"
"Wha...? Who are ya? Whatcha want?"
"I am the Ghost of Obtuseness. You cling to your 'not normal' tenet as much as Dr. Crump clings to his idea that most folks are 'normal.' You're just as obtuse as he is, maybe worse. Did you know that, Rick?"
"Get out of here! You're a gastronomic hallucination--nothing but a bit of spoiled beef or undercooked potato! Maybe some Pepto Bismol will chase you out! If not, maybe Zyprexa will!"
"What are you planning, Rick?"
"I gotta cure Crump of his 'normal' ideas and convince him that he's just as 'not normal' as the rest of the entire world, from the Garden on. After all, I am a trained observer and see that no one is 'normal.' Except maybe Kent, who has this overwhelming fetish for cursing and swearing to no end. Now that's 'normal.' Blessing out your opponents is 'normal.'"
"Rick?"
"Yeah?"
"The Pepto didn't work. I'm still here. And you don't need Zyprexa - yet. Before you jump on your computer and punch out that really big 'rebuttal' you've been agonizing about all night, consider that you need to relax and take a break, before you need Lisinopril or Prilosec OTC, if you aren't already taking them. You take yourself MUCH TOO SERIOUSLY. When you realize that most folks are quite normal, your 'not normal' neurosis will vanish."
Rick hurled a typewriter at the Ghost, but it passed through him, smashing the mirror on the wall behind.
"Foolish man! Ghosts are incorporeal! Now you've brought yourself seven years of bad luck to add to your 'not normal' neurosis."
"Neurosis neurosis neurosis neurosis!" shouted Rick, who suddenly awoke from his nightmare. Was he a changed man, cured of his 'not normal' neurosis? That will depend on the reply that he'll obviously make to this post. The readers can judge for themselves. I, on the other hand, seeing that nothing more can be accomplished here, will have "eased on down the road" to deal with more pressing matters.
I owe you yet another apology. I thought you were devoid of all humor. It turns out you've got quite a comedic streak in you.
We could argue all day over what the meaning of obtuse is, but I'm afraid the readers would not be able to tell who was spoofing whom.
I will not continue to excoriate the expired equine beyond this one last flog: I challenge you to find one person who fits the definition of normal in all categories. Of course most people are "normal" in that they don't let their delusions and other eccentricities run away with them. I was merely making the point that nobody fits the "normal" template completely. It is the subtle differences and quirks that makes life so enjoyable. If everybody were the same life would be dull indeed.
It is also obvious from your reply that you are quite a "Wiz" when it comes to pop culture. I am a little shocked that you would even stoop to quote from such a profane and celebrated work of modern musical entertainment. Then to choose to parody a Dickens classic was even more of a surprise. There may be hope for you, yet.
The two works you chose to fuse together resulted in a slightly unbalanced presentation, but that's just the theater critic in me coming out.
As far as using the not-normal line: Hey, it's still a semi-free country, use it all you want. I was only concerned that continued use of that line, even as a spoof, would result in clumsy and awkward postings. That's probably just the college English professor in me coming out, though.
As to your quote:
"Dialogue" consists of mixing and stirring assorted opinions and beliefs from folks who may or may not know the TRUTH of Scripture. There is no "I think the NT means this or that." It's what the NT SAYS that is TRUTH.
You're faced with a couple of challenges: (1) remembering even just the "gist" [not necessarily the exact words] of what you posted here and (2) being fair in your addressing ALL the individuals you named ... properly.
You still have a chance of getting your original "message" re-posted.
Donnie
This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address 72.150.119.44 on Jan 7, 2006 4:46 PM
Would have loved to have read your post, but the powers that be have deemed it unworthy. Like I said, It's still a half-free country. At least they could have sent it to the Vipers Den.
Epilogue? Now, you've thrown out another word which has to be chased down on the OUTER-Net. I have always known that "DOC" had a sense of humor: his is like that of Jesus or Paul where you see him holding up your SKIN and you didn't even know that he had a scruple to cut with.
My "pet name" is PINEY: Over on Ibelieve.NOT or FaithSlight.con an old pastor lady dubbed me Piney.Sol and everyone laughed including Kenny. Is that a sign that I am improving? Do you think God has a juvenile court?
This web site is not part of or approved by any Church!
...........................THE BOOK
What Happened At the Madison Church of Christ?
There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.
This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison
Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource
references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least
you will recognize the signs early on.
Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't
know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.
Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was
one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.
It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of
it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word
of Jesus Christ.
At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority
of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly
realm.
They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and
to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.
The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan.
Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books,
seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change
so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....
At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to
be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched
through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the
"Community Church Movement"
Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready,
or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the
plans very nature, it had to be secret.
The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was
never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last
15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.
The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the
elders went along unwittingly.
This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell
something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill
in some of the timeline.
To even start to understand whats happening here, you must read the
background materials in the first of the book.
This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be
printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our
web site; http://www.concernedmembers.com/madison
Here is the list of players;
5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten
commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)
Recall that Rick first taught us that no one, not since the Garden of Eden, has ever been “normal,” because everyone apparently has some kind of psychological quirk, no matter how subtle. Apparently, a person only becomes “abnormal” when those quirks dominate a person’s life, or worse. But if everyone is “not normal,” by strict definition, they ALL must be “abnormal,” which is the antonym or opposite of “normal.” Let’s not try to change the dictionary and say that “not normal” does not mean “abnormal.” “Not normal” is synonymous with “abnormal.” On the other hand, if literally everyone since the Garden of Eden has been/is “not normal” (let’s cut to the chase and say “abnormal”) as Rick teaches, then it is the “norm” or “normal” to be “not normal/abnormal” by virtue of having a few psychological quirks. It follows that if it is “normal” for everyone to have a few subtle, psychological quirks, then it is completely false to say that everyone is “not normal/abnormal” (Hope Tonto’s hobby horse is as fast as mine, because we’re really soarin’ here, folks!