MUSIC IN NEW TESTAMENT WORSHIP



INTRODUCTION

1. The example of Nadab and Abihu serves as a very important example for us today in regards to rendering worship to God - Leviticus 10:1-3
a. When they offered in worship something the Lord had not commanded, it was taken by the Lord as a sign of disrespect for His Holiness
b. Such examples were written for our learning - 1 Corinthians 10:11


2. As children of God ...
a. We are to be holy before the Holy One who called us - 1 Peter 1:14-16
b. Therefore it is equally important that we treat God as holy!
c. This we can do in our worship by doing exactly as He instructs in His Word!




3. To be sure that we do this in regards to our MUSIC in worship, I would like for us to consider what the New Testament has to say about:
a. The nature of worship in general
b. And especially about the music in New Testament worship


I. TYPES OF WORSHIP IN THE NEW TESTAMENT

A. "TRUE" WORSHIP...
1. Referred to by Jesus in John 4:23-24
2. This is the type of worship expected by God today ("an hour is coming,
and NOW IS")

B. "VAIN" WORSHIP...
1. Referred to by Jesus in Matthew 15:7-9
2. This worship is the result of:
a. Following traditions of men and ignoring the commands of God on a particular subject
b. Also, when worship is not done "from the heart"





C. "IGNORANT" WORSHIP...
1. Referred to by Paul in Acts 17:22-23
2. This is worship offered in the absence of a knowledge of God's will
concerning who He is and how He is to be worshipped


D. "WILL" (SELF-IMPOSED) WORSHIP...
1. Referred to by Paul in Colossians 2:20-23 (KJV)
2. This worship, closely aligned with VAIN worship:
a. Is the result of doing what WE like and WE think is good
b. But not taught by God in His Word (cf. Nadab & Abihu)

It should be evident, then, that not just ANY worship is acceptable to God! There are different kinds that can be offered, but only ONE is acceptable. Since God will only accept "TRUE" WORSHIP, we had better understand what is involved ...


II. THE MEANING OF "TRUE" WORSHIP

A. IN SPIRIT AND TRUTH - John 4:23-24

1. What does it mean to worship God “in spirit?”
1 Corinthians 2:11; Psalm 51:10, 17; Ecclesiastes 12:7;
Matthew 10:28
2. What does it mean to worship God “in truth?”
John 1:14, 17; John 17:17; Ephesians 1:13;
1 Thessalonians 2:13; 3 John 4


B. GOD IS SEEKING “TRUE WORSHIPPERS!”

C. THIS IS TRUE IN OUR MUSIC AS WELL AS IN THE REST OF OUR
WORSHIP













III. THE MUSIC IN "TRUE" WORSHIP

A. THE ONLY MUSIC COMMANDED IN THE N EW TESTAMENT WAS
"VOCAL"...
1. The example of Jesus and His disciples - Matthew 26:30; Mark 14:26
(they "sung a hymn")
2. The example of Paul and Silas - Acts 16:25 ("singing hymns")
3. Other references
a. Romans 15:9 - "sing to Your name"
b. 1 Corinthians 14:15 - "I will sing with the spirit, and I will
also sing with the understanding"
c. Ephesians 5:19 - "singing and making melody in your heart"
d. Colossians 3:16 - "singing with grace in your hearts to the
Lord"
e. Hebrews 2:12 - "I will sing praise to You"
f. James 5:13 - "Let him sing psalms"

B. THE MUSIC IN THE NEW TESTAMENT EMPHASIZED THE
"SPIRITUAL"...
1. Ephesians 5:19 - "singing and making melody in your heart to the
Lord"
a. "making melody" (PSALLONTES) - In the Old Testament this
had reference to the playing of musical instruments
b. But notice that now (in the New Testament) the "making
melody" is to be done "in the heart", not with mechanical
instruments!
c. Since this music is to be offered "to the Lord", we had better
regard Him as holy and offer exactly what He specified
(remember Nadab & Abihu)!
2. Colossians 3:16 - "singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord"
a. This passage is parallel to Ephesians 5:19
b. Notice again that the emphasis is SPIRITUAL: "in your hearts
to the Lord"

C. REVIEW THE CONTRAST BETWEEN OLD TESTAMENT MUSIC AND
NEW TESTAMENT MUSIC...
1. Old Testament music
a. Performed by a professional choir
b. Accompanied with various mechanical instruments
2. New Testament music
a. Sung by all in the congregation ("speaking to one another in
psalms...")
b. The melody to be made in the HEART, not on the HARP
c. The emphasis is not on how we sound, but that we are making
true melody in our hearts to the Lord!

IV. REFERENCES ON MUSIC IN THE NEW TESTAMENT CHURCH

A. THE VOICE OF HISTORY...
1. "All our sources deal amply with vocal music of the church, but they
are chary with mention of any other manifestations of musical art... The
development of Western music was decisively influenced by the
exclusion of musical instruments from the early Christian Church." –
Paul Henry Lang, MUSIC IN WESTERN CIVILIZATION, pp. 53,54
2. "Only singing, however, and no playing of instruments, was permitted
in the early Christian Church." –
Hugo Leichtentritt, MUSIC, HISTORY AND IDEAS, p. 34
3. "There can be no doubt that originally the music of the divine service
was everywhere entirely of a vocal nature." –
Emil Nauman, THE HISTORY OF MUSIC, Vol. 1, p. 177
4. "We have no real knowledge of the exact character of the music which
formed a part of the religious devotion of the first Christian
congregations. It was, however, purely vocal." –
Dr. Frederick Louis Ritter, HISTORY OF MUSIC FROM THE
CHRISTIAN ERA TO THE PRESENT TIME, p. 28
5. "Both the Jews in their temple service, and the Greeks in their idol
worship, were accustomed to sing with the accompaniment of
instrumental music. The converts to Christianity accordingly must have
been familiar with this mode of singing...But it is generally admitted,
that the primitive Christians employed no instrumental music in their
worship." –
Lyman Coleman (Presbyterian), THE APOSTOLIC AND PRIMITIVE
CHURCH, pp. 368-369

It may seem odd that music was entirely vocal in the early church, when instrumental music was quite common in the worship of the Jews and Gentiles. But not when you recall that the worship in the New Testament was to be spiritual in it’s emphasis.

B. THE VOICE OF VARIOUS RELIGIOUS SOURCES...
1. CATHOLIC -
"... the first Christians were of too spiritual a fibre to substitute lifeless
instruments for or to use them to accompany the human voice." –
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA
2. GREEK ORTHODOX -
"The execution of Byzantine church music by instruments, or even the
accompaniment of sacred chanting by instruments was ruled out by the
Eastern Fathers as being incompatible with the pure, solemn, spiritual
character of the religion of Christ." –
Constantine Cavarnos, BYZANTINE SACRED MUSIC



3. PRESBYTERIAN -
"Musical instruments in celebrating the praises of God would be no
more suitable than the burning of incense, the lighting up of lamps, the
restoration of the other shadows of the law. The Papists, therefore, have
foolishly borrowed this, as well as many other things, from the Jews.
Men who are fond of outward pomp may delight in that noise; but the
simplicity which God recommends to us by the apostle is far more
pleasing to Him." –
JOHN CALVIN, Commentary on the Book of Psalms, Vol. I, p. 539
4. METHODIST -
"I have no objection to instruments of music, in our chapels, provided
they are neither heard nor seen." – JOHN WESLEY (founder)
5. METHODIST -
"Music as a science, I esteem and admire: but instruments of music in
the house of God I abominate and abhor. This is the abuse of music; and
here I register my protest against all such corruptions in the worship of
the Author of Christianity." – ADAM CLARKE (commentator)
6. LUTHERAN –
"Martin Luther called the organ an 'ensign of Baal'." –
MCCLINTOCK & STRONG'S ENCYCLOPEDIA
7. BAPTIST –
"I would as soon attempt to pray to God with machinery as to sing to
Him with machinery." –
CHARLES H. SPURGEON

Why did these men object so strongly to instrumental music in the worship of the church? Because they properly realized:
1. That such was a carry-over from the Jewish worship
2. That as such it was out of harmony with the SPIRITUAL nature of NT worship
3. That it rightfully belonged to the Old Law with its "shadows" and not the
TRUE worship of the New Testament


V. JUSTIFICATION OFFERED FOR THE USE OF INSTRUMENTS

A. "IT HAS ALWAYS BEEN A TRADITION IN OUR CHURCH"
1. Not really, as history reveals the use of instruments to be an innovation
introduced hundreds of years after the New Testament Church began
2. In most cases, it has been used only during the last two centuries
3. Even so, as "traditions of men" it qualifies as VAIN worship -
Matthew 15:9





B. "I DON'T SEE ANYTHING WRONG WITH IT"
1. Then your worship is IGNORANT worship - Acts 17:22-23
2. For you are not aware of the kind of worship God commands of you

C. "I LIKE IT IN MY WORSHIP TO GOD"
1. Then it becomes WILL worship - Colossians 2:20-23
2. And you begin worshipping like Nadab & Abihu
a. Offering that which YOU like
b. But offering that which is profane, for God did not command it

D. "IT IS FOUND IN THE OLD TESTAMENT"
1. So are a lot of other acts of worship which were "imposed until a time
of reformation" - Hebrews 9:9-10
2. That time has come and God expects His people to worship differently -
John 4:23-24
3. The fact that God may have commanded it in the past does not mean
that He approves its use now (especially when He has revealed what He
DOES want)
4. Consider the sin of Moses
a. God first told him to STRIKE the rock for water -
Exodus 17:5-6
b. Later, God at another time told him to SPEAK to the rock -
Numbers 20:7-8
c. But Moses struck the rock as before, and in so doing sinned and
lost his right to enter the promised land - Numbers 20:9-12
5. His sin? He did not treat God holy by doing ONLY what God had
commanded at the PRESENT time!
a. God may have commanded INSTRUMENTAL music in the past
(Old Testament)
b. But He now commands VOCAL music (New Testament)


CONCLUSION

1. Let's not make the same mistakes as did Nadab and Abihu, Moses and Aaron,
forfeiting our inheritance in the Promised Land offered to Christians (Heaven)

2. As we approach God in worship, let us treat Him as Holy by worshipping as He has
commanded: "in spirit and in truth"

3. In regards to our music ...
a. Let it be singing with melody in our hearts to the Lord
b. And not with melody made with mechanical instruments

In doing so, we KNOW we are on safe ground, and that our worship is well pleasing to Him!

To make things simple about music in worship, Christians should observe the following:

1. DO trust, follow, and obey what is WRITTEN in the New Testament about singing and making melody in our hearts to the Lord (Eph. 5:19 and Col. 3:16).

2. DON'T agonize over, speculate about, or second-guess what is ABSENT from the New Testament regarding instruments.

Which church are you talking about the Jewish Christian Church or the Gentile Christian Chruch. You can trace their history (both of them) and get your argument to twist any way you want. For or against.

One had instruments the other did not. We (church of Christ) just happen to argue the Greek orthodox view.

Regarding music, like I said, my post was aimed at ALL PEOPLE (be they Holy Rollers, Catholics, Greek Orthodox, you name it, or even those you segregate into "Jewish Christian" or "Gentile Christian" groups). My post admonished ALL PEOPLE to follow what the New Testament has written about singing and not focus on what is absent from the NT about instruments. You can't get twisted around and you can't go wrong if you just trust the NT and follow what is written therein; that is, if you believe that the NT is the inspired Word of God. You risk error when you implement in worship instruments that are absent from the NT, especially when the NT gives specific written instructions about vocal music. BTW, that principle applies to any other subject covered in the NT besides music.

Not the JEWS: they were ISRAELITES. The CHURCH in the wilderness for the MASSES was the Qahal or Greek Ekklesia. Numbers 10 defines the instruments and SIGNALS. Blowing a trumpet called the EKKLESIA or QAHAL into assembly which was NEVER for anything but the Holy Convocation of READING Or REHEARSING the Word which any literate elder could do from memory because he was APT TO TEACH and not APT TO CHASE A COON.

The ALARM was "blowing instruments and making a joyful noise before the Lord." This was OUTLAWED for the synagogue and the Israelites and later Jews NEVER violated that direct command until the SAME liberal Jews discorded a German Synagogue in the year A.D. 1815 and the FIRST RM sectarian believed in German theology and REJECTED inspiration.

You will note, because you known Psalm 41 by heart from attending the TRUE EKKLESIA, that it was prophesied that JUDAS would attempt to TRIUMPH OVER or ALARM Jesus with music. Now, if you want to pretend that you are still MOCKING Jesus like the sacrificers mocked the innocent lambs and later Jesus, and you want to PANIC the congregation to keep them FROM memorizing a Psalm next Sunday then GO AHEAD, MAKE GOD'S DAY.

The TEMPLE STATE "congregation" consisted of the King, commanders of the ARMY, the Musical WARRIOR Levites, priests and tribal representatives (12) called STATIONARY MEN. This was a pagan, like the nations NATIONAL animal sacrifice just like down the road at Tyre with a Tyre built temple. The "populace" was defined as STRANGERS and could NOT go into the holy places. Indeed, neither could any singer, preacher or musician enter into this CIVIL holy place without getting run through with a sword--EVEN TO CLEAN OUT THE GARBAGE.

The synagogue NEVER had a praise service and Paul defined it as the assembly in Romans 15 which OUTLAWED the pleasuring from arousal singing, demanded that they use ONE MIND and ONE MOUTH to speak THAT WHICH IS WRITTEN or SCRIPTURE as the only way to edify or educate, glorify God and KEEP THE UNITY.

The ODE also defines PSALMUS AS "Hebrew cantillation" which was NOT musical but used the normal inflections of the human voice. Indeed the word SPEAK which Paul commanded and is defined as SPEAK as in the word SPEAK is defined in the literature as to "whisper or use conversational tone." Paul DIDN'T preach as in PREACH: he dialoged or communed. Elijah at Mount Sinai has God DEFINE AWAY any LOUD activity: He "speaks in the whispered voice of a silent breeze."

Both Jewish and Catholic Liturgy literature defines AWAY instrumental music because it was NEVER used by any but pagans in a religious sense. Psalm 150 does not define a WORSHIP SERVICE because it is ALLEGORICAL allowing only those things with BREATH to praise God. Furthermore, some of these instruments were not allowed even for the animal sacrifices which as a NATIONAL activity was EXORCISM. Further, furthermore, many of them carry the idea of pollution or prostitution. Only the HAREM OF THE GODS sang or played in pagan idolatry. And then, not in the VILEST pagan temple could singers and instrument players, prostitutes and clowns, Jesters and Buffoons enter into the Holy Precincts representing the "presence" of their gods without getting killed.

I hope none of you read that passage DIRECTLY COMMANDING the building of an ARK???

Ken, I know everything that has breath also has a meaning in the root of evil or lucifer name which conversely (or inversely, depending what mode Ken's random word generator is set on today) means Pan, but you can't go and twist everything around to fit you when it's clearly and plainly in the text as "Praise Him with..." and then various stringed and wind instruments. We're not just supposed to praise Him with some of the things that we are able to do, we are supposed to praise Him in everything we do. If I can play a guitar (and I can) then why shouldn't I use that tallent to praise God and lead others in doing so (which I have). I know that this my by me a one way ticket to hell (signed by Ken, of course) but God gives us tallents and we are to use them and not just let them sit idle as we go on with some legalistic view point that allows us to condemn the world. That last statement wasn't directed at anyone in particular, just thought I'd add it.

Sethy,

Of course we are to use the talents that God gave us. If that talent is the ability to play a musical instrument, you can't use that talent during worship. However, anything outside of worship is acceptable.

Haha! I think you must have missed something when reading the Bible Anon. When is our life not about worshiping God? I'm pretty sure that we are in worship even when we aren't in a church building. Our lives define who we are, we are not just Sunday Christians (or at least we aren't supposed to be) so how can you say that we only can't use instruments during a "worship service" but we can at any other given time?

I hate to bring this up again, but nobody ever responded to me. I'm pretty sure that in the new testament it is said "all Scripture is God breathed" and when that was written the "new testament" wasn't cannonized yet so that means that "old testament" is God breathed. So when in psalms it says to praise God with all of the stuff listed in Psalm 150 then it must mean it or something. The Bible wasn't meant to be some big puzzle that only the intellectual elect could decipher, it's made so that one common man could share it with another without having to wonder what the heck he is saying.

In one thread, Rick mentioned beating a dead horse over the music issue. He's right. Your side and our side have more than whipped ole Dobbin to death about music in worship. Yet Sethy decided that the poor beast need a few more lashes before burying. Sort of wanted the last word about it all?

As I said in one thread, we can hash and rehash the music issue ad infinitum, and NOBODY's mind is gonna change that hasn't already been made up. So I'll offer a summation:

The pro-instrument side:

1. Cites the Old Law, such as the Chronicles, which commanded instruments in worship. Also coming under the auspices of the Old Law were the Psalms (they certainly weren't written in the New Testament Gospel age), Psalm 150 being a favorite to quote.

2. Cites the example of Jesus worshiping in the Temple with instruments under the Old Law.

3. Understands "Psallo" to mean plucking a physical stringed instrument.

The pro-a cappella side:

1. Quotes New Testament passages like Eph. 5:19 and Col. 3:16, which command the use of vocal music only.

2. Rejects instuments because there is no command in the NT to use them; adding them would be an arrogant presumption to second-guess God.

3. Understands through the apostle Paul in Colossians, Ephesians, and Romans, and also through the writer of Hebrews, that Jesus removed the Old Law and everything about it on the cross. Since Christians are no longer to follow the Old Law, it follows that we are not keep its command to use instruments.

4. Understands the "Psallo" of the verses above to be a metaphorical plucking of the strings of the heart.

5. Follows what is written in the NT about vocal music; leaves alone what is absent from the NT about instruments.

You know, when you get down to it, the music issue really isn't "rocket surgery"; that is, if you're willing to follow what is WRITTEN in the New Testament and not second-guess it. Oops! By this post, I think I added a few more lashes to ole Dobbin! But, hey, our nameless or semi-nameless friends like "Rick," "Sethy," "Amazed," "Concerned Christian," and probably others will keep on adding more lashes anyway; you can BANK on that!

BTW, the correct expression is, "This isn't rocket SCIENCE." Surgery is a form of medicine performed on people and animals, not on rockets.

You say people are not going to change their mind...I have changed my mind. It is not a Salvation Issue for me anymore. It is talk like this that has assisted me in changing it. I am hoping that you will eventually change yours. I am not going to lie to you, after hearing for 20+ years how sinful and wrong that instruments are that it wasn't scary for me to let go of that tradition. My FEAR and Trembling that God would strike me down for listening to and worshiping with "mechanical instruments" is gone but it does not make or break my relationship with Jesus, it was just a stepping point to release all kinds of FEAR and become a Christian. I was dunked in water when I was a child, but I truly became a Christian when I released my FEAR and began to be Free in Christ.

Once again you are upset because people have an opinion instead of “Amening” everything. You say that people have to “get the last word about this," but instead of "rebuking" "Anonymous" (February 6 2006 at 10:32 AM) about his "new" posting on instruments you gleefully jump in and support it some 7 hours later (February 6 2006, 5:39 PM.) Yet Sethy asked a question, and it is an immediate beat down on him.

What will you do when Amazed, Sethy, Rick or myself stop posting here? Oh yeah, there will be others that will come along and talk and be "Amazed" and you will get upset because they don’t “Amen” everything you say and then they will move on. Amazing! I thought this was a site to debate and discuss...not agree on everything.

Sethy,

Sure, every bit of Scripture is God-breathed. However, we do not live under the Old Testament anymore (when instruments were used during worship). Now, we are to abide by everything under the New Testament.

Anonymous,

Clever name.

So, Jesus, when he died on the cross and nailed the written code there also, wanted to replace the cold, impersonal law with another cold impersonal set of codes and rules? I would remind you of Colossians 2:14,
"Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;"

The thing about laws and rules is that they allow you to judge without thinking. The problem with your answer is that "abiding by everything in the Nedw Testament" is not something that any church does. With all of Mr. Sublett's combined verbiage, nobody can come up with a "Thus saith the Lord" injunction against instrumental music. If it is as important as so many think it is, why did we not get a commandment that is plain and clear? The New Testament is very clear about important doctrines, such as salvation, the deity of Christ, the virgin birth, the resurrection, etc.

So we have to build a doctrine out of "hidden" meanings and elaborate exegetical constructs. I believe if this subject was supposed to be so important, there would be clear and direct commandments. The "hidden meaning of parables argument" doesn't wash because the Bible is so clear in all the other important areas.

Rick

Rick,

There's OT examples (since it WAS written for our understanding) in the outline I posted where people thought that the "clear, direct commands" that God gave them wasn't enough and as a result of their actions, paid a consequence for it.

I note in your post of "NOT worshipping with the instrument," you have brought John Calvin (Presbyterian/Baptist), John Wesley (Methodist/Nazarene/Charasmatics), and the Catholic Church to your defense.

Evidently, the Holy Spirit has never gotten throught to this group of "believers" on the "truth" written in Acts 2:38; 20:7 and Mark 16:16 Gal.3:27, etc.

You are saying: "Believer's who have NOT been baptized for the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirt, but DO speak one to another in psalms and hymes and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in their heart to the Lord are character witnesses for the Apostolic mode of worship to the Lord"....lol

Just what is it about "Justification," that you do not understand?
Jack Mann

Mann, Jack!

You have busted them, once again.

Hoist by their own petard!

Rick

+++++++++++++++++++++++++

Well, Rick, looks like you're learning Kent's style of posting ... somewhat. You know that I'm interested in your own viewpoints.

Donnie

Donnie,

Thank you. It is good to know that you are interested in my viewpoints, Sort of gladdens my heart.

I was just encouraging Jack on what I thought was an outstanding post.

The Bible says "And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:" (Hebrews 10:25) KJV

It appears as if most of us excel at provoking one another. It's comforting to know we are following Scripture.

Rick

Jack,

The reason why quotes from Calvin, Spurgeon, and other denominational founders was included in the outline is to show that even the founders of denominations, though erred in their teachings on salvation, didn't agree with instrumental music in worship to God. Instrumental music was later introduced by members of the denominations into their worship services.

Did you also notice the quotes from music history books that said that the early church (meaning the NT church found in the Bible) practiced non-instrumental worship?

Dear Mr. Anonymous, we are no longer under law of the OT, but that doesn't make everything in it null and void. If it is God breathed then it should be paid attention to, not just thrown away so that you can support your ideas without being challenged. And Mr. Crump, I know very well that it's rocket science. I was making a joke (this isn't rocket science/brain surgery...two popular sayings rolled into one), you know a little light hearted commedy amidst the chaos and confusion of everything posted here from two sides of an issue. And one more thing, you are the one provoking these extra lashes to the dead horse. You made a thread and then told us all to bring the arguement to it, and that's exactly what I'm doing. Have a nice day.

Sethy,

You didn't read my outline in it's entirety did you?

Mr. Anon (you mind if I write "Anon?" It's much shorter than "Anonymous.")I read over the points and if you are referring to the parts near the end about music being commanded in the old testament then let me tell you that you took the verses in John and Hebrews completely out of context and assumed something into them which wasn't there, especially in the Hebrews text. There was nothi8ng mentioned there about any form of musical worship. The John text was talking about the Jews worshiping in a physical place (the tabernacle) as opposesd to the spiritual type of worship the Christians would have. The Hebrews text is taken way out of context. It's even summed up at the end and I'm not sure how you missed it. Hebrews 9:10 reads "They are only a matter of food and drink and various ceremonial washings--external regulations applying until the time of the new order." That's pretty self-explanatory, nothing about music, just restrictions.

Sethy claims that we are not under the Old Law, then says that not all of it is null and void. That's a complete contradiction. The Old Law was "God-breathed," but God put that "breathed" Law to rest with the cross and "breathed" a new Law, the Law of Christ. After all that's been said, after all the scriptural texts that we have shown IN CONTEXT, Sethy is STILL trying desperately to justify instruments in worship using the Old Law. Sethy is so determined to have instruments at all costs that he either CAN'T or WON'T grasp Gal. 5:1-6, which says that if Christians follow ANY part of the Old Law, they are bound to follow ALL of it (Paul used mandatory circumcision as an EXAMPLE, but only an EXAMPLE, of following the Old Law). And if we follow the Old Law, we make Christ of NO EFFECT, again according to Galatians. Sethy continues with his weak argument for instruments based on the OLd Law, when Christians are no longer to follow the Old Law.

So let Sethy go his way and follow both the Old Law and the New Testament, thus making Christ of NO EFFECT for him. Let Sethy worship with instruments, which were commanded under the Old Law, but which must now be put away in the Christian age, because the New Testament says for us not to follow the Old Law. I'm certainly not going to condemn him, for I have neither the authority nor the desire to do so. We've done our part to admonish both Sethy and our general readers about what the NT has written and authorized about vocal music. If we want to follow Christ, obey Him, and please Him, WE WILL DO WHAT THE NT SAYS AND NOT TRY TO SKIRT AROUND IT.

BTW, I had requested earlier that further music discussions be placed in the Boswell-Hardiman debate thread, since I started that thread. Instead, someone else started this new thread, so we've just been going around and around again in circles. It's called the "Fruity Loop."

Dr. Crump: BTW, I had requested earlier that further music discussions be placed in the Boswell-Hardiman debate thread, since I started that thread.

At least you can recognize that your head is swelling that big.

Ok, now let me tell you something Dr. Crump, just calling my arguement weak won't exactly make it so. We aren't under the old testament code anymore, I've stated and restated it as have many other people, including yourself. Now the part I don't understand is where you can't comprehend where I use small words to explain something as simple as 1,2,3. Here goes, I'll try once more to make it simple all though I'm sure Dr. Crump or Kenny or our new friend Anon will try to molest my statements and twist them into something that makes their arguements "seem" right until common sense breaks through. Tell me (actually I'll tell you) what kind of a book is Deuteronomy? It's a law book, we don't have to follow any of that anymore, it's the old LAW. Tell me this, what kind of a book is Psalms? A law book? No, no it isn't. It's not a law book, stuff in Psalms is not law. We don't stop using old praises, we stopped using the old law. It's not difficult, it's not brain surgery (for you Mr. Crump) it's common sense. Stop twisting what I say, and take a look to see the difference between "law" and "not law." I don't have a problem with the a cappella church, you can go ahead and sing like that and I don't believe you will go to hell for it. I'll continue singing to the piano and guitar and even a drum (complete with "resounding cymbals" and I don't believe that it will condemn me hell either.

Same old weak arguments, same old broken record, same old blind, desperate attempt to "justify" instruments by the Old Testament, the Mosaic Law, same old taunts and jeers: "At least [Dr. Crump] can recognize that [his] head is swelling that big." Sethy adds nothing new and wastes Internet space. Same old Fruity Loop. Same old, same old...

that what was just said in the post above is hypocrisy.

Sorry "No Name,"... I do not get your point. You bring into the discusion the "Holy Spirit regenerated," denominatioal scholar's, to support you idea of first century worship, and you want me to believe on their authority, and your concept that a New Testament church such as the one at Corinth, with their moral and spiritual state; a New Testament church rebuked by Paul for their party spirit partaking of the Lord's Supper and then eat the meat offered to idols; irregularites in public worship, mistaken views of the resurrection, a man sleeping with his father's wife, yet called "Brother's" by the Apostle Paul and YOU would "judge" those "In Christ," in the instrumental churches of Christ! Do you have any idea of what Paul meant when he wrote: "There is therefore NOW NO condemnation to them which are IN CHRIST.?"

It is "No Names" that have divided the church of Christ; it is No Names that have dropped her flag in battle against the "deadly" doctrine of Augustine, Luther, the Papacy, Judiasm, Calvin, Knox, Wesley, Mohammad, Joseph Smith, Billy Sunday, Oral Roberts, Jerry Falwell, Benny Hein, Billy Graham, and a hoste of lessor lights who have or had, no more idea of the biblical doctrine of "Justification" than most on this forum!

It is the "No Names" that look down their Pharisee noses and bring to the Lord's Table the subjective discusion of M.C. Kurfees' "doctrinal law" of "Psallo." Men like Kurfees are as Jesus said, "blind guides which strain out the gnat, and swallow a camel."
Jack Mann

Jacky, if we had someone selling BOOKS telling you that they have received a VISION and others HEARING AUDIBLE VOICES telling you that Human Excrement TASTES and SMELLS good you might begin thusly:

First, you might look up stuff about EATING THE SACRIFICES made to Baal Peor. You discover that one worshiper deficated and smeared it on the NOSE of the idol because the gods just louvvveee-uh the smell of blood, dung and burning flesh--especially infants. The next one in line ATE that sacrifice which had been EMPOWERED maybe by a Worse-ship minister. And you heard God condemn that.

Next, you might look at all of the literature which associated DUNG and the Flute-Girls: the official in Athens and other cities had control over the flute-girls who were PROSTITUTES, the cemetary and the DUNG heap. You might see how Jesus CAST OUT the musical ministrels "more or less violently like one EJECTS dung" because all of the MUSICAL HELPERS in the pagan-like temple were intimately associated with all of these smells.

You might search the literature and see whether anyone had improved morals by USING the flute-girls (literal or virtual) who often PERFORMED in the stock yards or dung heaps.

You might look at ALL of the historical testimony and determine whether there was much evidence that dung smelled and tasted good (remember cabs of dove dung?)

The same is true with MUSIC: you don't TRUST the traffickers who CLAIM that there is NO testimony against instruments to TEST the spirits. That is why you look at ALL of the evidence and disover that rather than ALL in your favor you have NONE. So, it is ok to check out MUSIC without authorizing their other views. If you wanted to know why the Restorers rejected the trinity of a Family of Gods after which The Family of God gets its name for a commune, you would look at ALL of the history and find out that this HERESY was invented in Nashville, Tn, a city set on seven hills with its own temple to Athene and OUTED in the year 1942.

Nothing wrong with looking at ALL known writings--as tis writer has done--on the MUSIC-DEVIL connection to see if there is ONE JOT or TITTLE which gives the DISCORDERS any authority for DELIBERATELY discording and stealing the church houses of widows to put the worthless to work on a new W.P.A.

I can not believe that the moderators of this site allowed Sublett's previous post to be put on here. Besides not being true, it's really inappropriate to compare music to excrement. Seriously. I know all of you guys who in charge of this site are in favor of acapella worship only, but stuff like that does not give validity to your argument.

Jack Mann, thank you for a well-stated post. You make a lot of sense, and based on the previous post, no one can find an argument with any substance to it without getting vulgar. The church in Corinth was no model you would want to base your church on. Paul didn't set up a website calling them false teachers, change agents, apostates, and other lovely names many of us have been called here. He loved them, showed them the truth, and called them brother. Novel idea.

Good job finally unraveling all the confusion on instruments. Here's the REAL dividing line:

On one side are those that see the Bible authentically for what it is, and what it is not.

On the other are those that do not realize the OLD LAW is not the OLD TESTAMENT, and the NEW LAW is not the NEW TESTAMENT.

PPB

You made some pretty bold statements about me in another thread that is locked for some reason, so I will try to address some of them here. Thed commands of Paul to greet one another with a holy kiss are just that, commands. My understanding of Greek tells me that Paul wrote thses as simple direct commands to his readers, not requests. You say that you have verifiable grammatical evidence to the contrary. Let's see it.

I did not twist the Psalm thing, I merely stated that the inspired OT Psalms could be considered psalms in the general sense, also. I did not defend the man who wrote the original post.

Just for the record, the congregation I am a part of is over 130 years old.

Also, for the record, I have not made a "personal attack" in several days.

I'm not angry with you, please do not be angry with me.

By the way, you never did deal with 1 John 4:18.

Rick

Moderator,

Is there a reason the the Boswewll-Hrademann thread is locked?

Just curious.

Rick

================================
If allowed to grow it gets to big to load. It could have been done for preservation.

I assume Dr. Crump wanted it preserved. He had done such a wonderful job on it, I see no problem in meeting that request if it were made.

Since I did not lock it, I actually should not be answering this request.

moderator,

Thank you for your prompt answer.

Rick

The Boswell-Hardeman thread was locked, because the postings beyond the debate summary had become nothing but a continual rehash and repetition of the same arguments originally presented in the debate. With nothing new being discussed, and since perpetuating the Fruity Loop avails nothing, the thread did not need to remain open. Its content should remain on this site for future readers to study, however.

The B-H thread was originally created to make readers aware of a classic debate about instruments and that a transcript of the debate was available. The thread summarized the salient points of each side, then encouraged readers to get a copy of the whole debate and study it, for it covered all possible arguments for and against the use of instruments in worship.

Now I see that a new thread, "Instrumental Music," has popped up on the Madison forum which would again rehash the same old arguments. There is nothing new under the sun. Those wishing to perpetuate the Fruity Loop may post there.

Dr. Crump,

I understand the reasons for locking the thread and agree with you, but in all honesty, there are some people who will not let the arguments die. If we try to have a discussion, or debate about other topics on other threads, they always bring it back it instrumental music.

That puts people on the other side in the position of having to deal with the topic.

What we need (myself included) is more discipline to "stay on topic." I fear it is a vain wish.

Rick

Why was the the other thread locked up? it's funny to me, mr. ppb, that you (as Rick stated) have not a single word of backup for anything you say except for your own word (just so you know, your word does not = God's Word, and without God's Word you've got nothing but empty comments)you have made accusations and allegations about our arguements not carrying any weight while all the time your arguement is starving to death because you haven't said anything worth listening to because you don't back it up. We've all (both sides) brought in Scripture referrences and (some) have been able to verify them as relevent to our arguements, but you have only given us the word of ppb....worthless.

Rick: "Just for the record, the congregation I am a part of is over 130 years old."

Dr. Crump: Just wondering if belonging to a congregation that's over 130 years old is supposed to lend more credibility to Rick's position.

Instead of appearing to brag about the age of one's church, why not honestly be able to say something about one's church like, "The congregation I am a part of truly strives to follow the Word of God, the New Testament, because we fully trust what is written therein; we add nothing to NT doctrine; we remove nothing from NT doctrine; we don't alter the NT doctrine in any way by implementing alien or man-contrived schemes; we leave NT doctrine exactly like it is; we don't second-guess the NT doctrine; we don't incorporate worldly fads and pop culture to draw crowds, for worship is holy, not a time for circus entertainment; we believe that the Gospel commands love for God/Christ, love for and helpful service to mankind, and complete and absolute obedience to the Word of God in all things whatsoever He has commanded us."

It's just a suggestion, but it's much more complete and much more comprehensive.

Pardner!

Dr. Crump.

Why are you always jumping to conclusions?

You said, "Just wondering if belonging to a congregation that's over 130 years old is supposed to lend more credibility to Rick's position.

Instead of appearing to brag about the age of one's church, why not honestly be able to say something about one's church like, "The congregation I am a part of truly strives to follow the Word of God, the New Testament..."

I mentioned the age of the congregation in response to what PPB said in a now locked thread, "In fact, this issue really brings further concerns of how sad our "loving" and "enlightened" new churches are becoming."

I just wanted her to know we weren't a "new" church.

I really wasn't bragging.

I don't want to fight with you. Why do you pick at everything I say?

Rick

I was admonished for posting this question on the wrong trend. I guess I should have read the whole message board to find the correct trend to post to.

Here is my question:
Growing up in the church of Christ, I never really questioned anything. But as an adult, I found that I have a mind to think and can voice my opinion.

It seems to me that the argument against instrumental music mainly comes from the doctrine referred as "the Law of Silence" Where the bible is silent, we also should be silent. However, what I have seen is that people of this belief regarding instrumental music are far but silent on the subject.

Please use the law of silence to tell me what is wrong with this conclusion:


First off, I am sure no one on this board will dispute that instruments were use in the Old Testament. The Psalms are full of accounts where David (God's favorite) talks of the use of instruments.

In Revelations, there are accounts from John of instruments in Heaven..

Revelations 5:8 the 24 elders had harps

Revelations 14:2 The sound I heard was like that of harpists playing their harps

Revelations 15 2-3 They held harps given them by God and sang the song of Moses the servant of God and the song of the Lamb.

Now lets go to

Malachi 3:6 "I the LORD do not change.

James 1:17 Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows

and finally the Lord's prayer:

Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
Thy kingdom come,
Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven

If instruments were used in the Old Testament and in Heaven, and God does not change. And Jesus said, thy will be done on earth as it is in Heaven. If the angels had harps, given to them by God, wouldn't this be his will?

You don't see the CLEAR argument that instruments are wrong in NT times? Neither do I. We must be the "Fruity Loopers" as some of these fellow Christians call us.

This argument about instruments being wrong just gets funnier as we go along. As I grew up in the church of Christ I use to fight to the bitter end and argue "our" argument to my friends. I thought I was being that "peculiar" person (Titus 2:14) and began to realize I was indeed peculiar...a "Fruity Looper" as these Christians like to call us.

Donnie has asked me why I have not left the church of Christ...the reason why I have not left is because the "Fruity Loopers", "Change Agents" etc. are displaying a relationship with Jesus rather than just knowing about Him. The changes that are occurring are going to continue and the fight is over for the "Contenders for the Faith." Most of these "Contenders" will continue to have their traditional c of C to go to until they pass away and go to Heaven. (notice I did not condemn you to hell Moderators) But the Pattern of the c of C will continue to fade away and Change.

Once again the Church of Christ did not arrive in the 1950's and have all the answers. The "Foy Wallace’s" were hot in the 1950's and scared the dog out of people. That Fear relationship "theological view" is no longer something people embrace and it frustrates the Moderators of this site.

Oh yeah and they will tell us to "Behold the Pattern"
I say no thanks.

I love the "Freedom in Christ" that I and many other people are experiencing.
http://www.freedomsring.org/fic/

Once again, some people make getting to Heaven harder than others.

Let the Moderators begin to call me and other names.....

I think Dr. Crump's name was mistakenly applied to my post above.

Rick

Yes, Rick is the author of the response titled "Whoa There." The tone, writing style, and attitude therein are clearly his, not mine.

Rick asked why I "pick on" him all the time. People who are admonished for straying from the straight and narrow path often interpret such friendly admonition as being "picked on." I'm just keeping a light rein on Rick. After all, he does have a tendency to "pick on" people himself, especially those whose postings he can't begin to fathom. I believe the name Ken Sublett is familiar to Rick.

And "for the record," Rick's reference to the age of his church surely did sound like bragging. If bragging was not intended, then the statement was superfluous. Beliefs and behavior of a congregation are important; its age is not, unless the congregants have decided to emulate the prideful mindset of certain elite families, who exult in the fact that their ancestors "came over on the Mayflower." What matters is if a congregation, old or new, follows Christ in all things, as my statement of "suggestion" emphasized.

Come now, how about at least a token attempt at accuracy?

I never said you "picked on" me. Being picked on carries with it the idea that you could hurt me by taunting. I asked why you felt it necessary to "pick at" everything I say. Pick at, like a cantankerous child who needs a nap and becomes disagreeable. He constantly says "NO!" to everything and everybody.

Case in point: Your comment "And 'for the record,' Rick's reference to the age of his church surely did sound like bragging. If bragging was not intended, then the statement was superfluous."

As I previously stated, I was only responding to a comment aimed at me by PPB about "new and young churches" behaving a certain way. I wanted to reassure her that we did not fit the preconceived mold she had cast us in. As such, it was not superfluous. I didn't just make a random comment, I was addressing a topic.

Personally, I agree that the age of the congregation bears little meaning if the current generation of believers is not striving to please God.

The only times I have been hurt have been when I have been misrepresented or lied about. That goes to a person's character, and when all is said and done that's all we have.

I would rather have civil discourse. I have not said anything negative about Mr. Sublett in a long time. As you know, I can play hardball, but in the end, nobody wins.

How about a truce?

Rick

Smith: "I was admonished for posting this question on the wrong trend. I guess I should have read the whole message board to find the correct trend to post to."

Dr. Crump: Actually, it's not necessary to read the "whole message board" to find the appropriate thread in which to post a message. But prior to posting, it does help if one briefly scans the forums [or fora] and the different threads therein to avoid creating repetitious threads.

Smith's query again brings up the "Law of Silence" and instrumental music. Believe it or not, this subject has already been covered in the Boswell-Hardeman debate thread in this present Sunday School in Exile forum. Rather than launch into another long, repetitious dialogue, I encourage Smith first to study the summaries of the debate arguments and then to study a copy of the entire debate transcript itself (name of the publisher is provided in the introduction to the B-H thread). As I said before, the B-H debate covers all possible arguments pro and con about instrumental music in the Church.

Smith: “Revelations 5:8...Revelations 14:2...Revelations 15:2-3...”

Dr. Crump: I believe that it is “Revelation” each time, not “Revelations.”

...the fact that there is an ENTIRE THREAD devoted to the "Law of Silence," also known as the "Law of Exclusion." So Luey Smith can plunge into that thread and read to his heart's content. Don't worry, the detractors who insist that the LOS or LOE doesn't exist have put in their two cents' worth in that thread as well.

The thread is called "Is the Law of Exclusion Scriptural?" and is found on page 2 of the Sunday School in Exile forum.

I did not intentionally post as “Anonymous”. I didn’t know I had to add my name, I thought that since I was logged on, that it would automatically show my name.

I am sorry for the typographical errors. But there again, I am admonished for not using my spell check.

I have read the trend on Boswell-Hardeman Discussion on Instrumental Music in the Worship and the discussion start with the debate of the word “psallo”. Then goes to the law of silence debate. I did not find where my questions were answered there.

My question is whether the Bible is even silent on this subject. Like I said before, Malachi and James both say that God does not change. That sounds like a pretty strong statement. If he doesn’t change, then he doesn’t change.

And the passages in Revelation show that there are instruments used in Heaven. And Jesus said in the Lord’s prayer “thy will be done, on earth as it is in Heaven” If it is God’s will in Heaven, then it should be God’s will on earth.

I feel that if anyone wants to say that they prefer A cappella music or that it is a church tradition it is fine. But to say that it is forbidden or not authorized by God is kind of putting words in God’s mouth.

The B-H debate covers much more than just psallo and the Law of Silence in more than 200 pages of transcript. If Smith can't find the answers to his questions from the brief summary in the B-H thread, then by all means he should get the entire debate transcript and READ IT. That means spending a few bucks to get a whole lot of information. Besides, it's good to have the whole debate in one's library as a reference. And if Smith's questions aren't covered there exactly word for word (it would be idealistic and naive to think that they would be), I believe that the principles presented therein will more than equip him with enough knowledge to work out the answers--from a biblical standpoint.

BTW: Smith mentioned the spell check. He shouldn't rely on it to bail him out concerning "Revelations" three times over. A general spell check will see "Revelations" and "Revelation" as correct spellings of two words, but a spell check cannot read one's mind and discern correct usage in this regard. Correct usage depends on a person KNOWING that the last book in the Bible is titled "Revelation," not "Revelations."

...and a correct understanding of the Book of "Revelation" will also lead one to a correct understanding that Revelation 22:19 does not include the entire Canon...right Dr. Crump?

It is good to know that we will have a quiz in Heaven on spelling and spitting out Bible verses as well as splitting hairs over opinions.

By the way...When were you consulted on that?

Thanks for sharing!

Dr Crump,

Why are you so mean?

My first sentence in my first post was “Growing up in the church of Christ, I never really questioned anything” This is why I never questioned anything of fear of being treated like you have treated me. You have a Dr. before your name, and I have just a high school diploma. Your tone, which is very belittling, makes me wonder if you really wanted to write after each posting, “that idiot”.

Hardly anything I have asked has been addressed. Mr. Cruz did address my question about God does not change. He said “the Lord does not change, therefore what”?

I may not be as smart as you gentlemen are, but I love God with all my heart and I know he loves me just as he loves you. Even if I am not as intelligent as you.

Since we all agree that I am not as intelligent as you. Maybe I should ask my question in a simple Yes or No format so that you don’t have to give me answers I might not understand.

Were instruments used in the Old Testament to worship God? Yes or No?

Did John say there are Instruments in Revelation?
Rev 5:8, Rev14-2 and Rev 15:2-3? Yes or No?

Does the Bible say that God does not change? Yes or No?

Did Jesus say in the Lord’s Prayer
Thy will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven? Yes or No?

Wouldn’t it be concluded that since God doesn’t change, and there are instruments in the Old Testament and in Heaven. And Jesus said thy will be done in earth as it is in Heaven and even with all the arguments out there including the Boswell-Hardeman debate, that we shouldn’t be telling other people that they are going against God’s will if they use instruments?

This seems pretty simple to me. When we bring a non believer to church and they question why we have a cappella music. I don’t think I can hand them the 200 page transcripts from the Boswell-Hardeman debate and say read it for yourself.

Luey,

You seem lilke a decent, intelligent person. That means wou will probably get very frustrated here. You might as well stop asking for answers to questions that are continually ignored. It has been my experience that the really tough questions that cannot be honestly answered without admitting error are treated that way.

I was "reproved" a few times for not using Scripture or referencing reasearch data. When I pointed out the times I did do that and told the person admonishing me about it his answer was something to the effect of, "There were no comments because we probably agreed with you."

I about died laughing.

The fact is, the detractors will nit-pick and annoy. They will point out the small slip-ups you make from time to time, but they will stay away from engaging you on the big issues.

Don't let this deter you. You are on the right track.

I hang around because I enjoy the company. Even the people who can sometimes seem mean. They really aren't mean, just zealously passionate about their cause. They are quite harmless.

Looking forward to more of your posts.

Rick

I'm sorry Smith feels that he is being mistreated. Rick feels the same way, so Smith and Rick can cry crocodile tears together on each other's shoulder. Folks very often try to pull something over on us, and we can be very abrupt, just as Christ could be when people tried to make a fool out of Him, but we don't intend to be "mean." We also don't have much patience with people's foolishness.

I haven't spent any time previously trying to answer Smith's "questions," because my impression is that he's still trying to justify musical instruments with worn-out arguments. That subject has been hashed and rehashed ad infinitum on this web site. I tried to give Smith a reference to really good reading material (the complete Boswell-Hardeman debate), but all Smith wants to do is wail about his questions. BTW, the B-H debate is not difficult reading. He should read it and tell his friends all about it.

Smith poses "yes or no" questions. To the question about instruments in the OT, if I said yes, he would come back with, "Then the Bible authorizes instruments." That would be a nice trick, but it would not be the complete truth! Why doesn't Smith ask, "Are instruments authorzied or even mentioned in Christian worship in the NT? Yes or no." Why doesn't Smith ask, "Does the NT authorize and specifically mention ONLY vocal music? Yes or no."

To the question about God changing, if I said no, he would come back with, "God didn't change instruments from the OT." Why doesn't Smith ask, "Did Christ take the Old Law to the cross when He died? Yes or no." "Were instruments commanded under the Old Law? Yes or no." (Be careful--the correct answer is YES--already covered in detail elsewhere!) "If instruments were commanded under the Old Law, were they also nailed to the cross when Christ died? Yes or no."

Why doesn't Smith also ask, "When Christ died on the cross, did He institute a NEW covenant? Yes or no." "If He instituted a NEW covenant, did He retain the Old Law and everything in it? Yes or no."

See what I mean? Trying to justify instruments by the Old Law won't wash. Accept that. Next, Smith tries to justify instruments by coupling the Revelation account of angels playing harps in heaven with the phrase from the Lord's Prayer "Thy will be done on earth as (it is) in heaven," taken out of context. That is, we're supposed to do what the angels do in heaven. But Revelation also says that the angels have wings and fly. Man has no wings and cannot fly. Sorry, but an argument about flying in airplanes would be absurd. The phrase "thy will be done..." is a prayer that the will of man on earth conform to the will of God in heaven and has nothing to do with physical instruments; that is, this part of the prayer concerns spiritual matters. Please don't abuse Scripture to justify a carnal desire for instruments!

If people want instruments, then let them have them and be done with the matter, for they will bend and twist Scripture to suit their preferences accordingly. I gather that no amount of Scripture we could present would convince them otherwise.

Last week, at lunch, I was talking to a fellow worker about church and God. I mentioned going to the church of Christ and he asked me about the a cappella music only “rule”. I tried to tell him about the Law of Silence answer that I have been told before and he brought up the questions of Instruments in the Old Testament, God does not change, harps in Heaven and the Lord’s Prayer.

Since my law of Silence answer didn’t work, I looked for answers on the Internet and found this website. I posted the question here, hoping to find just the right answer to give my friend. I am still shocked at some of the responses I received. The insults were not what I expected from Christ followers.

Mr. Cruz, thank you for the link guiding me to the church of Christ in Michigan thread. The postings by someone, just identified as J, gave a lot of validity to the questions presented to me from my co-worker. If I would have read that thread first, I would have saved myself a lot of mocking and ridicule.

Dr. Crump, I thought that the New Covenant replacing the Old Law was about replacing the old tedious laws, rules and commandments, with God’s love, Grace, Jesus dying on the cross for our sins, forgiveness and faith.

I don’t believe that the Lord’s Prayer was taken out of contents. Your remark about angels flying around was just silly. Revelation 5:8 says the elders had harps, and Revelation 15:2-3 does not say angels, it says those who were victorious over the beast. If they were angels, they wouldn’t be standing on the sea of glass, they would be flying over it, Right?

Dr Crump, I have had crocodile tears. Tears for you. It breaks my heart to see a man of God filled with such nastiness. I pray that God will soften your heart, and you will be filled with love and kindness. God Bless you

I once heard a sermon talk about a person sitting on a plane next to a famous theologist and preacher. They asked him what was the most important thing he had learned in all his years of studying the Bible and preaching. The preacher’s response was “Jesus loves me, this I know, for the Bible tells me so”. All this debating isn’t for me. The name calling and slander isn’t how I want to spend my time. I think I will just stick to sharing with non believers that Jesus loves them.

My question is whether the Bible is even silent on this subject. Like I said before, Malachi and James both say that God does not change. That sounds like a pretty strong statement. If he doesn't change, then he doesn't change.

It is a fact that God does not change. The SABBATH does not mean SATURDAY but REST. It means that you must also let your servants REST or PAUSE. The Qahal or synagogue or "church in the wilderness" was ordained AFTER Israel fell into musical idolatry and were turned over to worship the Starry Hosts (Exodus, Acts 7, etc.,) The Levites were to bear the burdens and their instruments were to SIGNAL events such as marches, panicking the enemy into warfare, send troup signals or to blow DEFEAT.

Numbers 10:7 allows the trumpets to BLOW to call the "civilian" people into assembly but NOT the alarm which includes instruments and making a joyful noise. Some First days and all Sabbath days (1 out of each 7) was to REST and hold a holy convocation. This meant to READ or REHERSE the Word of God which any APT elder would carry around in written form or in his head. The Jews NEVER violated that command for the synagogue WHICH HAD NO PRAISE SERVICE. Indeed, how tough is it to tell the children to sit down and shut up when God is teaching through His Word.

Jesus died to found the EKKLESIA which is an even more RESTRICTIVE term than synagogue which regulates things OUTSIDE of the school. Paul EXCLUDED these private diversites from the DIALOG of the church in Romans 14. In Romans 15 he defines the synagogue of EXCLUDING personal PLEASURE which points to forms of singing, commands that they speak WITH ONE MIND and ONE MOUTH using THAT WHICH IS WRITTEN or SCRIPTURE. This was the only way to edify or EDUCATE, Glorify God by speaking HIS words and keep the unity.

Other than the priests, king and officials of the MONARCHY, the people were not part of the SACRIFICIAL SYSTEM. This used LOUD NOISE to SERVE the priests meaning in HARD BONDAGE. If you are not a male Levite, helping slaughter Jesus Christ all over again after the cross, if you are not in Canaan, not in Jerusalem and not OUTSIDE of the temple then YOU are not included in the CIVIL GOVERNMENT'S rituals. You are to SYNAGOGUE which is school of the Bible. That has always been the DIRECT COMMAND and God HAS NOT CHANGED. The First day is the day of REST and not worship in the ritual sense--God doesn't need his private parts tickled and He will hurt you if you try. We assemble as SCHOOL OF THE BIBLE and even the Lord's Supper is to preach the Death of Christ. The FIRST day is seen from the beginning of creation when God begins on the First day and continues on the Eighth day. The SEVENTH DAY was quarantined because of the Babylonian influence where the WORSHIPERS on the Sabbath did bad things to support the PRIEST. God gave HIS people the REST which outlaws "ministers travelling." The First day is important because SUN WORSHIP was prominent and Jesus QUARANTINED HIS "flock" from the noise and called them BESIDE STILL WATERS to COME LEARN OF ME.

As sure as you believe that instruments are sending Christians to Hell, we are just as sure it is not what will get us to Heaven.

We do however believe in Romans 10:13...that this is the way to Heaven.

Please begin your hateful response at this time:

Mr. Crump, have you missed it? Isn't it obvious? I've stated it a few times and you still don't catch on. I've posed the question "what kind of a book is deuteronomy?" and gave the answer "it's a law book." I've asked "is psalms a law book?" and answered "it isn't a law book. not by a long shot." Why don't you understand that you can't use this whole "old law was taken to the cross with Jesus" bit trying to keep instruments out of your hard-headed worship? The old law was taken to the cross with Jesus, that's why we don't sacrifice animals anymore, that's why we don't use priests anymore to intercede on our account with God. I've stated before (and i'll do it again) this ISN'T ROCKET SURGERY! If a non-law book was God breathed and it says "praise Him" and lists a bunch of instruments afterward then it's only natural to conclude that this means to praise Him with that bunch of instruments. Simple as pie, or 1,2,3, or a,b,c, or any other analogy you want to use.

Nobody's holding a gun to Sethy's head, forcing him to sing a cappella. As I said earlier, if he wants instruments, he doesn't need my approval to use them. Go ahead and use them to his heart's content. If he's convinced himself that the Psalms are a limbo book that somehow conveniently falls neither under the Old Law nor the Law of Christ, then nobody's going to change his mind with a ton of Scripture.

Move on, Sethy. You're sounding like a badly worn out broken record.

Once Dr. Crump comes back with name calling. (How Christian Like is that?) This website is a "broken record" and you are losing the battle. Remember the "perfect church" as you think did not arrive in 1950. It has continued to change all the away up to the 1950's even unto today and the Fear Religion it has produced is gone. Sure the Fear you talk about is alive and well in your rural churches, but the larger "more" educated churches that have people that are in love with God rather than being right all the time is moving on and growing in Spirit rather than information and aged old "Tracks."

Wow, I'm honestly amazed at what I'm reading. Nobody's forcing me, it's a choice as is your singing a cappella. Thanks for pointing out yet again Mr. Cruz what I have been saying for a long time now by posting your example from BOOKS OF LAW (Numbers and Deuteronomy, not Psalms. I do respect your side, but putting yourself above any rebuking is just unbiblical. I weigh very carefully what you have to say (if it really means something) and see if I believe it's in line with what the Bible has to say. I have to keep repeating myself (perpetuating the fruity loop as Mr. Crump would put it) because you all don't seem to get it. Psalms aren't law, not everything in the OT is law, if you think that then you are ignorant in your thinking. Mr. Crump, don't be such a hypocrite and tell me about repeating myself again and again, I think all you do is tell me that I'm perpetuating the fruity loop. It's ironic that that's the only thing you say to me anymore (you know, instead of posting a relevant remark that means somthing to someone) and we used to have such good conversations. If you don't have any real post to put instead of "music is evil....fruity loop....polly wants a cracker" then to you Cap'n Crump I bid Cheereo.

Here is a quote from Mr. Cruz:
"Unless you have been affiliated all along with the “Christian Church” congregation that insists on using the name “Church of Christ,” anyway, just remember that there are only a few (a handful) of the thousands of churches of Christ (NT) that have succumbed to your wish.

I've never heard of the "Church of Christ (NT)." I've heard of the Church of Christ which is autonomous and mostly without musical instruments, the Christian Churches/Churches of Christ which are independent and autonomous and teach the exact same plan of salvation as the Church of Christ, but use musical instruments, and the Christian Church (Disciples of Christ) which believes everything and nothing and has become so anemic that you might as well stick a fork in them. They are not independent, but have devolved into a hierarchical denominational structure.

Of these 3 movements, one of them proudly calls themselves "The People of the Parenthesis." I am referring to the Disciples, of course. Do we really want to start adding a parenthesis to the Church of Christ? That really is literally, adding to.

Interestingly, the Disciples have also adopted the name "Church of Christ" for their international identity. In England, Australia and other places they go by that name. Their international convention is also called the "World Convention of the Churches of Christ."

Too bad that name wasn't copyrighted.

I also think you are fooling yourself if you think only a "handful of churches have succombed." The numbers are growing and growing. Sticking your head in the sand won't help.

Praise the Lord.
Rick

Donnie,

I’m not going to spend much more time on instruments and Psalm 150, except to say that there is a related theme in the Psalms which should be mentioned. In his haste to imply that the Psalms fall outside the principles of the Mosaic Law because they are “poetry,” Sethy has either conveniently forgotten or doesn’t realize that the Psalms mention praising God with sacrifices (burnt offerings, clearly an act of worship commanded under the Mosaic Law) as well as with musical instruments:

“And now mine head be lifted up above mine enemies round about me: therefore will I offer in his tabernacle sacrifices of joy; I will sing, yea, I will sing praises unto the Lord” (Psalm 27:6 KJV).

“Oh Lord, truly I (am) thy servant; I (am) thy servant, (and) the son of thy handmaid: thou hast loosed my bonds. I will offer to thee the sacrifice of thanksgiving, and will call upon the name of the Lord” (Psalm 116:16-17 KJV). BTW, the sacrifice for thanksgiving is outlined in Leviticus 7:11ff.

I’m sure that Sethy and other Christians of like mind would also want to follow the other examples of worship which the Psalms provide. After all, this book falls outside the principles of the Mosaic Law because it is “poetry,” correct? It would be “selective doctrine” to follow only the musical example and not follow everything else therein, correct? If Sethy uses instruments according to the Psalms, then he likewise slaughters animals and makes sacrifices to God. He cannot do one without the other, if he follows the Psalms. So according to Sethy, the Psalms, which mention sacrifices to God, fall outside the principles of the Mosaic Law because they are “poetry,” whereas Leviticus, which also mentions sacrifices to God, is within the Mosaic Law, because it is not “poetry”? We have the same principles in both books. Is there not a double standard here, if not a contradiction?

Ladies and gentlemen, this kind of thinking is completely bogus, and Sethy knows that, or he should. The Psalms fall under the principles of the Mosaic Law as much as do Leviticus, Numbers, Isaiah, and Malachi, for example, and Sethy knows that as well. He just wishes to be argumentative in a desperate attempt to justify instruments.

The Psalms belong outside the principles of the Mosaic Law only to those who are so bent on using instruments and satisfying their own selfish desires that they will desperately twist and alter Scripture abominably to justify themselves. They not only pick and choose which acts of worship they will follow, but they also cast the Psalms into the realm of a “no man’s land” because it is “poetry” in order to make it fit their musical agenda.

So we’ll leave Sethy, our hard-headed friend, out in the field screaming and yelling, “The Psalms are poetry! Worship with instruments! Forget sacrifices! Pick what you want from the Bible! It’s just a grab-bag anyway! Viva la Change Movement!”

I've asked "is psalms a law book?" and answered "it isn't a law book. not by a long shot." Why don't you understand that you can't use this whole "old law was taken to the cross with Jesus" bit trying to keep instruments out of your hard-headed worship? The old law was taken to the cross with Jesus, that's why we don't sacrifice animals anymore, that's why we don't use priests anymore to intercede on our account with God. I've stated before (and i'll do it again) this ISN'T ROCKET SURGERY! If a non-law book was God breathed and it says "praise Him" and lists a bunch of instruments afterward then it's only natural to conclude that this means to praise Him with that bunch of instruments. Simple as pie, or 1,2,3, or a,b,c, or any other analogy you want to use.

Deuteronomy means SECOND LAW. The FIRST Book of the Covenant was the basic covenant made to Abraham and which was sidtracked. Galatians 3 leapfrogs the SECOND LAW and restores the Abrahamic Covenant entered into ONLY by baptism.

The fatal sin at Mount Sinai was the Musical Idolatry of the Egptian Trinity. Rising up to play was what happens in the TEAM LED and instrument led so-called worship assemblies.

The SECOND LAW was added because of transgression and we know what that transgression was.

Deut 29:1 THESE are the words of the covenant, which the Lord commanded Moses to make with the children of Israel in the land of Moab, beside the covenant which he made with them in Horeb.

Deut 29:2 And Moses called unto all Israel, and said unto them, Ye have seen all that the Lord did before your eyes in the land of Egypt unto Pharaoh, and unto all his servants, and unto all his land;

Deut 29:3 The great temptations which thine eyes have seen, the signs, and those great miracles:

Deut 29:4 Yet the Lord hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.

If you fast forward to 2 Cor 3 you will hear Paul tell the same Jews that they were BLINDED at Mount Sinai and that blindness continued until Jesus Christ came to give light. Those who TURN or are baptized can even see that The Lord IS THAT SPIRIT. You became a STRANGER and you would never be permitted in the Tabernacle court yard because a Levite would stick you with a sword. Not even then was INSTRUMENTS used during the BURNING phase because the conditional captivity and death sentence was not carried out until the elders FIRED GOD and demanded a human king so they could WORSHIP like the nations. God granted their "prayer" and promised that the KINGS would enslave and destroy them. Why are people so anxious to RESTORE a make-up trip to be led into Assyrian and Babylon with "fish hooks in the nose?"

Those who lived by the COVENANT OF GRACE were justified in the eyes of God BY FAITH. The sacrificial system to which the MUSIC was attached or SHIFTED from WARFARE to the KING'S SHRINE which was not related to the people's congregation or church in the wilderness at which instruments and loud rejoicing were OUTLAWED.

Lesson number Two: the Psalms are divided into FIVE BOOKS to match the FIVE BOOKS OF MOSES. ALL of the instrumental psalms are WARRIOR'S CHANTS intended to PANIC the enemy. Only Levitical warrior's were permitted to SING and or MAKE a loud noise never called MUSIC. Only male warriors. Only in Canaan, in or around Jerusalem and only OUTSIDE of the temple where they slaughterd, deblooded, de dunged and BURNED the animals. The LOUD NOISE began the BURNING CYCLE and sounded the END. This was called the HOLOCAUST and worship consisted of falling on your face IF you were a governmental official. CIVILIANS would be CHASED outside the GATES by the beginning blasts on the trumpets. Many of the Psalms tell about the FATAL SIN at Mount Sinai where Stephen says GOD TURNED THEM OVER TO WORSHIP THE STARRY HOST. Why are you so anxious to worship the STARS?

YOU could not sing, play or even be remotely CLOSE when this happened. You were never required to be close but if you were close you would worship with DIRT in your teeth. If they saw you turning into a girl by singing, clapping or dancing they would do GENETIC ENGINEERING and remove your DNA from the pool.

The Levitical Warrior Singers were NEVER in the Holy Place which was a type of the body or church of Christ. If a singer or player ventured into this symbolic TYPE of the church a BRETHREN would make YOU into a sacrifice. You, Sethy, would never be permitted into the "church" even to clean out the garbage--to wit Hezekiah's Reform.

The PRAISE in Psalms 150 means to MAKE SELF VILE which meant that the trumpet blowers, bow string TWANGERS, harpists and loud shouting was to make you into something like an AIDS infected band charging at you waving bloody hands. The OBJECT as they always knew was to induce FRIGHT which was to make you defecate your pants and run like cowards. Medical science knows that CHURCHY music is calculated to induce FRIGHT, FLIGHT and SEXUAL feelings. MUSICATORS in pseudo-churches do it in order to INTIMIDATE you by claiming to be MEDIATORS after they have CONDITIONED you--poor Western man--to hear screeching and screaming as SPIRITUAL.

You can be a modern system of RELIGION defined by THRESKIA meaning the corrupted worship invented by Orpheus and the Lesbian women who CORRUPTED Homer's poems by adding music and performing with instruments.

You simply cannot be an EKKLESIA of Christ or a Synagogue of Christ as Paul called the assemblies and DO MUSIC. If you add a drop of acid to a gallon of milk it is DILUTE ACID and not milk.

You cannot deliberately SOW DISCORD and invent a MUSICAL SECTARIAN denomination after two thousand years of objection without putting your souls in danger. So, forget it, the twain will never meet. Those who PRETEND to represent churches of Christ at the unity meetings this year will be waving a pirate's flag PRETENDING to be members of churches of Christ to GET PAID to infiltrate and subvert.

Died C. 110 Ignatius to the Ephesians

And if those that corrupt mere human families are condemned to death, how much more shall those suffer everlasting punishment who endeavour to CORRUPT the Church of Christ, for which the Lord Jesus, the only-begotten Son of God, endured the cross, and submitted to death! Whosoever, "being waxen fat," and "become gross," sets at nought His doctrine, shall go into hell.

In like manner, every one that has received from God the power of distinguishing, and yet follows an unskilful shepherd, and receives a false opinion for the truth, shall be punished.

"What communion hath light with darkness? or Christ with Belial? Or what portion hath he that believeth with an infidel? or the temple of God with idols? " And in like manner say I, what communion hath truth with falsehood? or righteousness with unrighteousness? or true doctrine with that which is false?

When you hear a church at a LOCATION you will always find it connected to CHRIST. When you hear the term THE CHURCH OF GOD everyone knows that it is THE CHURCH OF CHRIST.

Ignatius would call INSTRUMENTS corrupting as indeed one Hebrew word equates instrumental music, prostituting and POLLUTING.

Ignatius wrote to the EPHESIANS and confirms that SPEAK means SPEAK and not MUSICATE:

Wherefore it is fitting that ye should run together in accordance with the will of your bishop, which thing also ye do. For your justly renowned presbytery, worthy of God, is fitted as exactly to the bishop as the strings are to the harp.

Therefore in your concord and harmonious love, Jesus Christ is sung.
And do ye, man by man, become a choir, that being harmonious in love,and taking up the song of God in unison,ye may with one voice sing to the Father through Jesus Christ,so that He may both hear you, and perceive by your works that ye are indeed the members of His Son. It is profitable, therefore, that you should live in an unblameable unity, that thus ye may always enjoy communion with God.

Wherefore it is fitting that ye also should run together in accordance with the will of the bishop who by God's appointment rules over you. Which thing ye indeed of yourselves do, being instructed by the Spirit. For your justly-renowned presbytery, being worthy of God, is fitted as exactly to the bishop as the strings are to the harp.

Thus, being joined together in concord and harmonious love, of which Jesus Christ is the Captain and Guardian, do ye, man by man, become but one choir; so that,
agreeing together in concord, and obtaining a perfect unity with God,
ye may indeed be one in harmonious feeling with God the Father, and His beloved Son Jesus Christ our Lord.

For, says He, "Grant unto them, Holy Father, that as I and Thou are one, they also may be one in us." It is therefore profitable that you, being joined together with God in an unblameable unity, should be the followers of the example of Christ, of whom also ye are members.

ALL musical terms and names of instruments speak of Satan, CORRUPTING, prostitutes or Sodomites. If you want to slaughter Jesus all over again you will still have to make the crashing noise OUTSIDE in the parking lot or you will have to EXORCISE your building before people who know the facts would AFFIRM.

I have this to say about music and the Change Movement, then it's time I moved on to other issues as well, for nothing else is being accomplished in this thread.

The proponents of the Change Movement are so persistent and adamant on having instruments in worship that they find every possible way to “justify” them. Here are some of their more convenient “justifications”:

• 1. The Old Testament commanded instruments; therefore we will have them in our Christian worship.
  
  
• 2. Jesus worshiped in the Temple with instruments; therefore we will have them.
  
  
• 3. The Bible says all Scripture is “God-breathed”; therefore, since God breathed instruments in the Old Testament, our worship will use them.
  
  
• 4. “Revelations” says that angels play harps in heaven. The Lord’s prayer says “thy will be done on earth as (it is) in heaven.” Therefore, it is the Lord’s will in heaven that we play harps (meaning musical instruments) on earth in our Christian worship.
  
  
• 5. The Psalms do not fall under the auspices of the Old Covenant, because they are not one of the Books of Law (first five books of the Old Testament), and because they are poetry. Since Christians do not follow the Old Covenant, and since the Psalms have instruments, our worship will use them.
  
  
• 6. Instruments are mentioned in Psalm 150; therefore, our worship will use them.
  
  
• 7. The New Testament neither authorizes nor condemns instruments as such; therefore, our worship will use them.
  
  
• 8. Using instruments will not keep us from heaven. Rejecting instruments will not get us to heaven.

The list could go on, but it illustrates the mindset of the Change Movement. Now here’s what this Movement conveniently forgets or ignores. I’ll take each item above in order:

• 1. Christ laid the Old Testament or Old Covenant and everything in it to rest and instituted the New Testament or New Covenant with His death, burial, and resurrection.
  
  
• 2. Jesus was also bound to follow the Old Testament while he lived in the flesh, until he laid it to rest with His death, burial, and resurrection.
  
  
• 3. God also breathed the New Covenant, which supplanted the Old Covenant, and everything in it.
  
  
• 4. To take a phrase from the Lord’s prayer and by a circuitous route apply it to angels playing harps and thence to us is to take Scripture out of context. It’s also an abuse of Scripture. The context of “thy will be done on earth as (it is) in heaven” is a spiritual plea that the will of each person on earth conform exactly to the will of the Father in heaven.
  
  
• 5 and 6. Although the Psalms are not among the first five books of the Old Testament or Books of the Law, they nevertheless espouse principles found within the Mosaic Law; hence, the Psalms fall under the auspices of the Mosaic Law or Old Covenant. Psalms 27 and 116 both cite examples of making animal sacrifices to God, acts of worship and praise which are commanded in the Mosaic Law. Psalm 150 cites praising God with instruments. Since the Psalms espouse principles of the Mosaic Law, those who justify instruments with the Psalms must not neglect sacrificing to God with burnt offerings, lest they be guilty of neglecting the entire Mosaic Law. After all, Gal. 5:1-6 states that those who are justified by the Mosaic Law are debtors to the whole Mosaic Law. But those who keep any part of the Mosaic Law make Christ of no effect.
  
  
• 7. The New Testament specifies that vocal music is to be used in worship. We have no authority to add anything to or remove anything from the NT’s specifications for worship. And singing and making melody in the heart to the Lord IS worship, whether it’s done alone or in the company of other Christians. If the NT does not specify instruments, then who are we to second-guess the NT and add them?
  
  
• 8. To say that adding instruments will not keep us from heaven or that rejecting them will not get us to heaven is abominable arrogance and a good example of “selective doctrine.” It is man-contrived. How do we know one way or the other? Do we have the authority to place importance on those commands that please us and slight those which do not? Christ said for us to observe all things whatsoever He commanded us (Matt. 28:20 KJV), which includes the Gospels and His words through the apostolic writers. Our role is to trust God’s New Testament enough to do what it says and not speculate about what is not written there concerning matters of worship.

So, Are you saying that instrumental music may indeed have something to do with one's salvation? An interesting soteriological question.

If it is that important (important enough to possibly endanger our eternal souls) then why isn't it part of the 5 point plan, or would that be a 6th point?

Such absurdity!

Rick

Moderator:

If you are not going to post most of my submissions, at least send them to the Vipers' Den. I know that they will be appreciated by a few sane people there.

Thank you.

Rick

==============================
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Rick;

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However I would like to remind you that your post have no inherant right to be posted.

The only post that usually find the trash are those that have no meaningfull information, and are only inflamatory.

If your post remain of this nature then, you will be required to register with your full name and email address, or possibly be banned altogether.

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Thank You

Ya know, if this weren't a message board dealing with issues relating to God, it would be comical. All the dancing on a dime, trying to parse every word as though there is some secret, hidden meaning is just plain goofy. And the really bizarre, telling thing is that so many of you don't even know how silly you look.

As a life-long coCer, I was taught the lines you are espousing, and used to quote them hook, line, and sinker. I used to look every bit as silly as you did. Then, I grew a brain cell.

We tell people we have no doctrines or creeds. That we use the Bible only and speak where it speaks and are silent where it is silent. That's such a bunch of bunk.

For instance...

Hear, believe, repent, confess, be baptized.

That is our doctrinal creed. While I don't think it's not the plan of salvation, the way we've organized it, can quote it better than we quote the Bible verses that "prove" those steps, etc., and the many, many aspects of salvation that we conveniently left out because they weren't as catchy in the tract rack just scream "denomination" to me. If you visit with someone from another denomination and take note of their buzzwords, you'll find that what they have done is analyzed scripture to the best of their ability, arrived at some "summary" that they believe is the most relevant assessment of what God wants from mankind, and then "packaged" it as a simple way to get their general picture of Christ's message across.

From the "Sinners Prayer" to the Nycean (sp?) Creed and on down the line, each of those non-direct summations of something they've highlighted from the Bible and held up as "Prime Doctrine relevant to salvation" has become their defining phrasology.

And we have it, too: Hear, Believe, Repent, Confess, Be Baptized.

How arrogant are we to presume that we have this superior ability to discern? In the end, that's really what it is that we do. I've got a tremendous number of friends who are devoted to the Lord who attend group worship events (READ: CHURCH) elsewhere that I daresay are intellectually superior to me, who have sincerely studied scripture, and have come to different conclusions. To throw derogatory comments their way minimizes their faith that God is God and simply makes me look ridiculous as I assert I "know" more than them. Many of them can quote scripture around me.... and yet for some reason I'm supposed to walk around all puffed up because I "know" more? Please.

This is true where instruments are concerned, as well. We have presumed that you cannot sing with your heart while a hammer is hitting against a taughtly-pulled wire. Those two events are mutually exclusive. Of course, if Frankie Valley is singing a love song to the accompaniment of an instrument, we'd not accuse him of not singing from his heart. That would be impractical, illogical, and stupid. Anyone singing secular music who is desirous of using their talents and abilities to make it sound fabulously pleasing is very likely to pull out a violin, a banjo, a piano, a harp, an electric guitar... whatever they have the ability to play... and spend time arranging it and considering the beauty of the various ways their song might be presented. It's done as an act of wanting their craft, their gift, that which they have to offer, to be as perfectly pleasing to the hearers as it can be. Their hearts - the part of them that loves passionately and is committed and is overwhelmed with loyalty - want nothing but their best work to be "put out there" for their audience....

And yet, despite the fact that we know God was enamored with David's offering up of his heart via his various methods of music, we somehow claim that there is some mysterious moment where God has temporarily flipped off his "instrument appreciation switch" and created some huge law that cannot be quoted verbatum that has a salvation quotient attached.

Please.

If God found it pleasing, and appears to be going to find it pleasing again when Judgement rolls around, were do we get off attributing this switch-flip to Him when he made no such announcement?

Consider that the early day Christians were rarely of the upper crust... and the lower crust rarely had instruments at their disposal and did not often know how to play them at all. Consider that there were no pianos. Consider that all the "preachers" of the day were traveling men, walking or riding their donkeys, and certainly didn't have a U-Haul to cart any harp from city to city.

It would be entirely illogical for God to command that they use instruments given that they'd not always be available to a group who wanted to worship together in song.

It is also illogical to state that he forbids it when there is no such indication, anywhere. All we do know is that we are to sing in praise. The exact words we use, the peripheral events going on (such as whether or not a harp is being plucked) are simply not mandated. What is mandated is that our spirits be engaged, and that the words of our mouths and the meditations of our heart be pleasing to Him. That they be truthful, and that we be singing with a truthful adoration.

I prefer to sing a capella. I think it sounds better. It's less distracting to me. It's the culture within which I was raised and it's hard for me to concentrate when a big pipe organ is blaring.

A friend of mine who attends elsewhere tells me that she is entirely distracted by our lack of instruments. She appreciates that her off-key intonations are not as apt to distract the people in front of her and that they can sing along with music eminating from some instrument in the back, and not be focusing on some guy waving his hand to the beat up front (where'd we get that, anyway? The "crutch" of shaped notes and a guy waving his hand in that triangular 4/4 time pattern that we seem to get "off" without is much akin to her "crutch" of a piano.)

The bottom line is that while we each have our own preferred scenarios within which we sing vocally, the ears of God hear only the music of our hearts. If our hearts swell at the beauty created when an acoustic guitar and a human voice create a tear-inducing ballad of loyalty to the Lord, God hears that swelling heart. The setting within which we worship, married to the thoughts running through our minds and the convictions that lie within our souls, come together to create the spirit with which we offer our gifts of praise. And ultimately, it is that we sing as a gift of praise that is mandated. Not the externals that get us to that place of worship.

While we pick apart the details that have nothing to do with faith that God Is the I Am, Rome and all the other sinners who do not know of God's existence, his mercy, and his love are burning.

Is this really the legacy of a life we want to offer up as praise?

Carol, you were ABSENT when our learning center did that OLD TESTAMENT THINGY?

To bad, too sad, but as a "church" we have missed CHAPTER ONE and preachers and teachers don't have a clue about the history of Israel.

Q. Why did God remove Israel from Egypt
Q. What happened about "faith only" at the Red SEA.
Q. What is the Book of the Covenant.
Q. Why did the leaders refuse to HEAR it?
Q. What happened when Moses went back on Mount Sinai.
Q. What does PLAY mean?
Q. Why was the Book of the Law added.
Q. Why did the Levites replace the First born son.
Q. Why was the "church in the wilderness" given to the "people."
Q. What did God OUTLAW for the assembly.
Q. What is the meaning of a Holy Convocation.
Q. Why did God grant Israel a king.
Q. What did God promise the kings would to to them.
Q. What does LIKE THE NATIONS mean.
Q. Why did God grant the kings and why did he remove them.
Q. Why did God give David a pagan Jebusite high place.
Q. Why was it called Egypt and Sodom.
Q. What existing pattern did Jesus use for the Church.
Q. What was the nature of the gatherings.
Q. What name does Paul give to the ASSEMBLY.
Q. What did he directly OUTLAW from discussion.
Q. What was te commanded pattern for the ACTS.
Q. What is Paul's UNIQUE "worship" word.
Q. How did the church practice that for hundreds of years.

Etc., etc.,

I didn't miss the lesson, Ken.

Many here strike me as people who could watch a movie and tell you the color of the shirt the guy was wearing in scene 62, but who couldn't tell you thing one about the plotline.

And then there are those in opposition to this site who would take it upon themselves to revise the movie plot by throwing out scene 62 without permission from the Author, because the scene did not appeal to them.

Carol,
And then there are people like Bill Crump who never even watch the movie, but pass judgment on all those who have and try to decide what it is about.

...there are the "Lee Gullisms" and "Carols" of this web site who not only hide behind cowardly aliases or partial identities and are utterly petrified to reveal their true/complete names, but who also make abominable assumptions that those who regularly post here have not seen the "movie."

Lest we venture too far off course, what is the "movie"? It is the very Word of God, the New Testament--the commands and stipulations of which apparently offend the "Lee Gullisms" and "Carols" of the world who prefer their "freedom" instead of obedience. Otherwise, why else would they rebel so rabidly against the NT and want to change the Church to suit a godless society?

There may be a parable in here somewhere. I'll have to start working on it .

FWIW... Carol is my name, and I don't care to give any more of it, not because I am ashamed of my views, but because I have no desire to invite the venom that happens here into my real life. None of the churches noted on the lovely list from the concernedmembers site is within 500 miles of me, and even if I gave my full name, you wouldn't know me. I gather there are many here who would immediately be tracking down my home congregation, figuring out who my elders are, seeing if my husband serves in any capacity so you could warn my elders so they could dethrone him, etc... and seriously, that's just not something I want to invite into my life based on the opinions of a handful of people on the internet whose views I don't even trust, anyway. Why on earth would I put myself at your mercy when I don't even find you to be speaking on behalf of the Lord? That makes no logical sense. It'd be like walking into a lion's den and asking them, "Is there any blood you'd like to draw today? I'm kinda busy with life and all, but hey - if you're thirsty, go ahead. I think I owe it to you simply because you exist." Riiiight.

Please tell me, directly, where anything regarding the use or dis-use of instruments is stipulated or commanded. You simply will not find it.

And perhaps I am showing my ignorance here, but in the context of David in the OT, did God ever command him to play his harp? He commanded a lot of things, but as far as I can tell, the Bible is silent in terms of David getting some direct instruction to play as an act of worshipful praise.

And yet, David did it. And he was was Dad's favorite, before and after.

Go figure.

What fascinates me the most about all of this, I guess, is to see that I was once one of you, and now am not. I realize how silly I looked and am somewhat embarassed about my past at this juncture.

Consider the zeal with which the NT writers announce the sinfulness of adultry, greed, thievery, lying, not loving one's neighbor.... Those things were on their radar and they warned us against them vehemently. Regardless of whether or not anyone was lying, stealing, or committing adultry, they brought them up as Topics Necessary to Know if One Wants to Be in Good with God.

But the instrumental thing... it wasn't even mentioned. Don't you think that if it rose to the level of those things that it would've been made extremely plain? That we wouldn't need to try to interpret our way into a doctrine regarding musical praise based upon the silence of scripture premise?

Do none of you see the folly of your arguments? Do none of you see that the sinful things that defile men's souls are so... so... so wrong? So sinful? Sexual immorality, murder, pride, covetousness... all these things are sins against God and against ones own soul. They are impure and are never born of a desire to PRAISE GOD. And yet when those who use instruments are, at the very minimum, people who have God on their radar and are seeking to offer worship to him, do you have evidence that God clicks his Mute button?

And are people using instruments always doing so in sincerity? I doubt it. Just as I doubt that every one of us here has sung every word in spirit and truth as we've sung a capella. I know I'm often guilty of a wandering mind, which takes me OUT of the "spirit" column. Who is more wrong? Me singing with no piano but with my head elsewhere, or someone whose heart is fully engaged as they sing "Holy is your name" at the same time that an instrument is being plucked across the room? Seriously, would you rather meet your maker having had your WORKS in order regardless of faith, or your FAITH in order? I'll pick faith any day.

And don't try to tell me that you always have both in order, because I know that's not true. Your mind wanders and your spirit is not always engaged with every word. It's just not. So if anyone is guilty of no sin in the area of music, well, step right up and take a pebble to toss at everyone else.

What about the sound of an instrument itself makes you believe that God shuts his ears and screams in anger and pain when someone sings worshipful lyrics to an orchestra? Given that there is so much other evidence pointing to the fact that he found the sound of instruments pleasing and that he is scheduled to enjoy the blasts of trumpets according to Revelations?

What about the methodology of music in the Old Testament is indicitave of covenant? The Covenant was a promise to Abram/Abraham that his family would be huge and that they would be God's special people... and that it was through their lineage a savior would be born to all the world. That was the COVENANT. In order to further that covenant/promise, God gave commands to his people regarding their behavior, sometimes to protect them from harm and sometimes to ensure that they remembered that God was God. Rarely were his edicts arbitrary and without explainable merit. Commanding feasts? Done so that they might remember significant events. Commanding purification rituals? So that both physically and spiritually, his people would not contaminate one another with physical or spiritual impurity. That they march seven times around Jericho? Seven, as the perfect number, symbolized something significant to those Hebrew soldiers that God wanted them to keep at the fore of their minds.

And nowhere in the midst of all the edicts and laws and commands he issued so that the covenant with Abraham might be carried to fruition do we hear God laying down the law, in spirit or in word, that he has a distaste for instruments when used worshipfully. It's just not there. It appears to me that it is in the nature of God to find such worship, when the heart is pure and true (as David's was) pleasing.

If you cannot see this, my heart truly breaks for you, and I pray that in the end, the Lord overlooks your pride that cannot help but judge those who seek but to serve the Lord with a scrutiny born of the Pharisees.

The bottom line: The New Testament in Eph. 5:19 and Col. 3:16 authorizes vocal music--singing--in worship. Nothing is mentioned about instruments. What too many people can't understand is that Christians have no authority to add anything to or delete anything from that which is written in the New Testament. Christ never gave us that "freedom." As far as the pattern for worship is concerned, what the NT does not authorize is best left alone. Our personal preferences have no bearings here (and we've already been through the bit about whether the NT "authorizes" church buildings, rest rooms, air conditioners, etc. etc.--spare us those weak and useless arguments).

It is useless to pitch the same old arguments over and over again for instruments, using the Old Testament, David, etc. They've ALL been hashed and rehashed, and they've ALL been proven to be baseless, given the pattern laid down by Christ in the NT. Such arguments perpetuate the Fruity Loop. I don't know what congregation Carol attends (c of C or not), but her "theology" smacks of denominationalism or has a denominational slant (as many churches of Christ are adopting). Therefore, I strongly recommend that she cast off this man-contrived doctrine she embraces, that she start following the NT in what is written, and that she neither advocate nor implement what is not written in the NT in matters pertaining to worship. Peace to her.

Carol, you are so Biblically illiterate that there simply is no place to begin to bring you up to speed. You quote the same old mantra without haveing a clue to the meaning of the kings "set over us" the Like the Nation's Monarchy and the Temple planned by God at a Pagan high place to be IDENTICAL to the ones regularly built by Hiram the Mason architect. If you ASK for pagan system then God GIVES you one but sends "leanness in your heart" and kings to inflict punishment and lead you into captivity and death.

Better to let people think you are a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.

You are just into hate and Paul outlawed women from the DIALOG because they will always musicate instead of educate: so says Karen Armstrong, a great scholar.

This is comical. Or rather, it would be if the idea of following God were not such an important one.

My literacy is quite fine, thank you for asking. Simply, there is a forest for the trees issue going on here. The arguments you call weak - those about church buildings and song books and the like - are only weak because you grew up with buildings and books and so they seem normal to you, and therefore, they could not possibly be wrong... so they must be defended.

I have a friend who argues against church buildings. Oh, he attends in our building, but given the opportunity to expound, he will tell you why he believes that God would prefer that we not have them. He is not prepared to elevate the issue to salvation status, but does believe that we are perilously headed towards extinction because we are adding something to the operational activities of the Church proper that God never authorized.

Specifically, he will tell you that the arrangement of pews all facing the front has diminished the powerful nature of partaking of the Lord's Supper in a manner similar to that of the apostles the night it was instituted: around a table. He will tell you that we have no authority to use the money given to the church - given by command from God - for something like a building, when we do have the authorization to take care of the widows, etc., with church funds. He can give a very well thought-out list, based completely in scripture, and at the same time back up and tell you that which he believes has been diminished in a spiritual sense when hospitality and community and other things that were fostered when we worshiped in homes was prevelent. In his hard of hearts, he believes that we have no authority to "go there" with our buildings, but because he is commanded also to meet with other Christians and not forsake the assembly, and does not see it prohibited specifically, his conscience is in a quandry and attending in our building is the best option.

But given his druthers... he'll convince us all to house church one day. He's a MENSA-type, and I'd hardly call his arguments weak.

Ken, Ken. God made me just as he made you. Not that it matters, but I graduated Suma Cume Laude from a Christian University (that hasn't appeared on the lists of errant schools on this forum) and I had to laugh when I saw you cite World Net Daily on another forum (at least I believe it was you.) I'm published there, and was published on the day that I believe may've had their highest readership ever, appearing right beside Bill O'Reilly in the sidebar. You may've even been a fan of mine and didn't know it. Wouldn't that be a kick?

Am I the smartest kid in town? Hardly. But your assessment of my smarts is certainly not a guage I think I'll be using. Thanks for sharing, though.

You can be summa, cumma ludicrousa and still be as ignorant as your professors who cannot remotely tell you what transpired in the Garden of Eden and its "parable" message about Babylonianism. You cannot tell me about the Covenant made with Abrham because WE know that there was no ritualistic sacrificial system for which EXORCISM MUSIC had no rationale and which would have been a return to the Babylonian religionism.

You cannot tell me HOW the Abrahamic Book of the Covenant was offered, rejected and replaced with THE LAW because of transgression. You cannot tell me what that SIN was. You cannot define the word PLAY and neither can OReilly--the world's richest store of arrogance.

You cannot tell me WHY the Law was added. Nor can you tell me where instruments were commanded and for WHICH roles it served. You cannot tell me where to find the church in the wilderness FROM WHICH loud instruments and "making a joyful noise" was outlawed. You cannot tell me the meaning of a Holy Convocation. You didn't even know that "melody as tunefulness belongs to the 19th century" so to claim that the DID music is as smart as to say they WATCHED TV.

You cannot find any ONE of the FIVE very explicit passages which use INSTRUMENTS as a MARK of people engaged in fertility rituals and telling God to SHUT UP. You cannot tell us what was going on in Amos 5-8 and Isaiah 5 where music is one of the causes of God TEARING DOWN THE WALLS and letting the "beast people" in so that the children starved to death because of ignorance. You cannot find or explain the clear prophecy of the rise of Abaddon or Apollyon who unleashes his LOCUSTS which in John's message were the Muses or musical performers. You cannot tell us why all of these skills sold themselves as SORCERERS and why the literate knew that they were PARASITES.

You cannot tell me how the PEOPLE worshipped while the GOVERNMENT and CLERGY did animal sacrifices LIKE THE NATIONS. You cannot tell me WHAT purpose God promised for the kings when the FIRED him and demanded a "dominant pastor." You cannot tell me where David was a priest or ever served as MUSIC WORSHIP LEADER. You cannot tell me where to find 'congregational singing with instrumental accompaniment." You cannot tell me why you cannot and any kid could tell you why "THERE WAS NO PRAISE SERVICE IN THE SYNAGOGUE." You think the synagogue began in Babylon?

You cannot tell me where the Bible and all ancient scholarship says that wind, string and percussion instruments were introduced and by whom and for what. You cannot tell me where God told someone that people flocked to hear him HOPING that they could USE him as a lover as they tried to USE God. You cannot tell me what one prophet used to define NOTHING or people who were mercinary or who WOULD not listen to the Word of God.

You cannot show me any remote hint that even the vilest pagans USED music in the holy precincts typical of the Church of Christ and Heaven. You cannot tell me what would happen to a singer or musician who accidentially strayed into the Holy Place as a type of the Body or Church of Christ. You cannot tell me why they could not enter the COVERED PLACES even to clean out garbage. You cannot tell me where God and Josephus attributes the fall of Israel to the Levites and why they were SAT DOWN in the idealized temple.

You cannot explain to us why SPEAK means MAKE MUSIC and IN THE HEART means WITH A HARP. You cannot explain why Paul outlawed the PLEASURING for the Christian synagogue. You cannot tell us where Paul gave an EXPLICIT patternism for the assembly. You cannot even tell us what the assembly meant. You cannot tell us the true meaning of PSALLO or pluck or why your friends fail to tell you that PLUCKING the harp string in all of their proof texts applies to males PLUCKING a harp string to groom a young boy as "worship minister" so he could PLUCK the young boy in pederasty.

You cannot tell me what very late date any synagogue dared add secular singing and an organ. You cannot tell us THAT and at what Date SINGING AS AN ACT OF WORSHIP WAS ADDED. You cannot find one scholar who does not teach what ALL churches of Christ have practiced down through the ages. You cannot tell us where even the Catholic church ever engaged in "congregational singing with instrumental accompaniment."

You cannot tell me why JESUS CAST OUT the musical minstrels. You cannot tell me the meaning of the "marketplace" religion or about PIPING trying to make Him lament and dance. You cannot tell me why Dionysus was the anticipated god and Messiah of the Jews who had PROCURED the religious institutions.

You cannot tell me why all of the instrumental Psalms were PARADE or WARRIOR'S BOAST SONG. Well, I could go on and on but anyone should know that Paul spoke of the restored Abrahamic covenant, how people get into relationship with that covenant, why there is no WORSHIP RITUALS for the same reason there is in ANIMAL SACRIFICES or the MOCKING music which had rationale ONLY in and around Jerusalem, OUTSIDE of the temple and ONLY in connection with the CIVIL RULERS and the "like the nations' sacrificial system." Nor why, Paul defined the Holy Convocation just the way God commanded it for the "civilians" in the wilderness to QUARANTINE them from the curse of the Goyim or sacrificial system.

That is why you should have the common decency AT LEAST not to trash people who have not been confused by TAs reading a silly lecture which can be refuted by any good Electronics Engineer. I would demand a REFUND.

I haven't posted in a while, but I have lurked around reading what has been written. I have another question..

What about the parable of the Prodigal son? When the older brother came near his father's house, he heard music and dancing. What does his father's house symbolize here? The church? Heaven? So, when someone "goes forward" and confessed sin and rededicates his life, shouldn't we celebrate with music and dancing?

Another thing I have thought about is this:

If God would have specifically commanded instruments, how far would the gospel have gone in days of persecution? Jesus told his disciples in Matthew 10 that there will be persecution, and when that happens flee to another city. If he would have commanded music with worship, it would have been like saying HEY LOOK AT ME, I AM OVER HERE, COME AND GET ME. Jesus said they would be like Sheep among Wolves. Teaching the gospel was very dangerous during those times. He wanted them to be Shrewd as Snakes. It wouldn't have been very practical to want them to worship loudly with instruments. Maybe this is why God never commanded it in the New Testament. Because he wanted his disciples to get the message to as many people as possible even during times of persecution. They couldn't do this if they were dead. Maybe he doesn't forbid it, maybe God is just practical.

Carol,
I do not need to know your last name, but
you certainly are a breath of fresh air on this forum. It has not been so refreshing since Dr. Bill Crump played the organ at the Flatlander's Baptist Church. Dr. Bill, given the gift of music, has now seen the "light," read Calvin's "Institutes of the Christian Religion" and has chosen to ship those who worship with the instrument that Ken has so profoundly stated: "all musical terms and names of instruments speak of Satan" into outer darkness.
Yep,the "Flatlander's loss is the Acappell's gain.

Yes Carol, Ken has called you "illiterate." Hey, Ken calls everyone illiterate that has not read Igor and the Dancing Flute's. Yet, when I have ask the musical expert to exegesis John 20:21-23 and correlate this passage with Acts 1:2 and Acts 2:12ff, you will the hear the proverbially, "plunk" of silence. I have asked Mr. Waddley with his pious credentials to explain the "standard of judgment" by the King in Matthew 25:31-46 and I get "silence" from the so called "Ace" Lector of Ephesians 5:19 and Colossians 3:16.

So,Carol, whenever you bring up anything that does not pertain to Agents or Instuments, you too, will soon be censored and catalogued as a "Change Agent" and will be shunned by the pious four, who have in their own minds, been authorized to "touch" the Ark of the Covenant.
Jack Mann

Thanks, Jack.

And Ken, I must be stupid after all, because I can't make sense of word one in your post. It's rather like you're speaking in tongues, rather than decently and in order, and... well, you know what the say about that.

Are you this angry in real life, or just on the internet?

I was just throwing out some card class 101aaa, slow ones in the slow group to prove that your summa cumma lately does not let you know the key events of FALLS in the Bible. If you don't know that the Monarchy and Kings were "given in God's anger and taken away in His anger" and that EVERYONE knew that the kings were selected to CARRY OUT the captivity and death sentence conditionally given at Mount Sinai BECAUSE of the transgression of MUSICAL IDOLATRY of the TRIAD, and you then appeal to the sacrificial system or David as PROOF TEXTS for spiritual worship (even under the Law) then I cannot understand why you PRESUME to be a teacher of the Law when you don't know the WIDE SPREAD and almost universally known among early scholars facts connecting INSTRUMENTS to telling God to SHUT YOUR MOUTH.

Or, maybe I CAN understand why MOST "doctors of the Law" presume because Jesus said THEY TAKE AWAY THE KEY TO KNOWLEDGE. You need a PhDuh to be the best truth stealer Satan can train as "Prophet, Chaneller and Facilitor." Sheep skin stlll BLEEDING from those who FLEECE TO THE BONE.

Just thought I would see if I could write a long sentence. I am not angry: as I have posted on another thread I still feel a bit of guilt REJOICING and happy as a lamb while watching God POUR OUT HIS WRATH on those who triffle with the Word of God. The bystanders at the musical idolatry at Mount Sinai saw the antics as a LAUGHINGSTOCK and nothing is funnier than watching God turn unbelievers into buffoons, jesters and false preachers and musicators--just in time for Revelation 18.

Carol, you are so spot on in your past few posts. It is obvious you make a compelling post, when the only response back you get are personal attacks with no basis: "fruity loop", "you are illiterate", "fool", etc...

I, like you, was once on the other side of this issue, and I can understand what drives their passion...and it makes me sad for them. You have made solid points and delivered them well. Now I would recommend you to leave it at that and just keep them and others in your prayers...Not that they will use instrumental music (if that is their preference - as it is mine - then fine), but that God will help them lower their walls of pride and soften their hearts.

Once the Lord did that to me, my faith and relationship with Him went to a whole new level. I went from having religion to having a true faith filled much more with the fruits of the Holy Spirit...just call me a Fruity Loop.

Blessings

Undoubtedly, anything added to this discussion won’t be something that hasn’t been said repeatedly before. However, I am compelled to respond to some of the arguments that have been made and hopefully present it in a manner that will encourage further study.

One thing that must be understood is [pride] should not be the reason we “contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all handed down” – a command given to us in Jude 3-4. Arrogance and pride are the result of exceeding beyond the written word of God (I Cor. 4:6). Note that this is the primary reason why Paul tells us to stay within the bounds of scripture. If we go beyond (progress), we end up with what we have today in the religious world – disunity – the direct opposite of what Jesus wants. People end up doing what is right in their own minds, everything becomes a matter of opinion, and there is no accountability (because no one is wrong).

Using instrumental music during worship, like many other issues, is one based on authority and citing David’s activities, useful as they are in many areas, does not define what is or what is not authorized with regard to the Lord’s church. [And yet, David did it. And he was Dad’s favorite, before and after. Go figure.] Figure this – David also committed adultery and murder. Do these actions by “Dad’s favorite” authorize us to commit these sins today? It is [folly] to substitute our wants and wishes for God’s will. When God is silent in His word on any religious matter, is that silence permissive or prohibitive? From a previous post, we have the following statements/partial comments regarding this and instrumental music:
[Please tell me, directly, where anything regarding the use or dis-use of instruments is stipulated or commanded. You simply will not find it.]
[He commanded a lot of things, but as far as I can tell, the Bible is silent in terms of David getting some direct instruction to play as an act of worshipful praise.]
[But the instrumental thing… it wasn’t even mentioned.]
[It’s just not there.]

For scriptural silence to either be permissive or prohibitive we must determine God’s intent. For example, when God decreed that the priests would come from the tribe of Levi did He have to explicitly exclude the other eleven? In looking at Hebrews 7:14 we see that God, through Moses, “spoke nothing” concerning priests coming from the tribe of Judah (the tribe Christ is descended from and His is our High Priest). Similarly, in Leviticus 10:1-2 we have the all too familiar example of Nadab and Abihu whom God killed during the very act of worship by offering “strange fire”. Carefully note the wording here, “which He had not commanded them”. They didn’t violate a “thou shalt not” but progressed beyond what they were told to do. Moses struck the rock instead of speaking to it as God had instructed and, as a result, was forbidden to enter the promised land (Num. 20:8, 11-12). Saul deviated from God’s instructions to “utterly destroy Amalek” but he chose another course of action (I Sam. 15:3, 17-24). God told him that “to obey is better than sacrifice”. In another example of David’s actions, he ordered that the Ark of the Covenant to be moved using an ox cart instead of the ordained method of carrying it. When the ox stumbled and Uzzah touched the Ark in order to steady it, he was immediately struck dead (II Sam.6:3-7). Do we think he was sincere in trying to protect the Ark and does that even matter? Had Noah built the ark out of Teak instead of Gopher Wood, would it have floated? Had the Israelites marched around Jericho six times, would the walls have fallen? Had Naaman washed in the Jordan River less than or more than seven times, would his leprosy have been cleansed? We have countless examples of God giving specific instructions and the consequences of either following or not following them.

With specific regard to music in worship, what kind of music is authorized; vocal, instrumental, both, or neither? Regurgitating the “psallo” argument is useless. The definition of the word is to pluck without regard to what is plucked. The scriptures define what is to be plucked and that is the heart (Eph. 5:19). By the way, if psallo did mean to play a musical instrument this verse would command its use by everyone present. Protestant reformers (founders of the various denominations) clearly understood this even though their churches no longer adhere to it.

• John Wesley (Methodist) – “the whole spirit, soul, and genius of the Christian religion are against this.”
• Wesley – “I have no objection to instruments of music in our chapels, provided they are neither heard nor seen.”
• Adam Clarke (Methodist) – “I believe that David was not authorized by the Lord to introduce that multitude of musical instruments into the Divine worship of which we read.” – commentary on Amos 6:5
• Charles Spurgeon (Baptist) – “I would as soon pray with machinery as to sing with machinery.”
• Martin Luther (Lutheran) – “The instrument in worship is an ensign of Baal.”
• John Calvin (Presbyterian) – “It is no more suitable than the burning of incense, the lighting of tapers, or revival of the other shadows of the law. The Roman Catholics borrowed it from the Jews.”

Vocal music is what was authorized and that is clearly what the early church practiced because musical instruments did not appear in Christian worship until centuries after the Apostolic period (approximately 670 years after Christ). The purpose of singing is to teach and encourage, something a mechanical contraption cannot do regardless of how it makes one feel.

Authority must be delegated by one who possesses authority. I can’t use your charge-card unless you authorize me to do so (check the back of your card(s) and see if my name is specifically omitted). I cannot join AARP because membership is restricted to those 50 years of age and older, even though it doesn’t explicitly prohibit every other age less than that. Jesus was given “all authority” by The Father (Matt. 28:18) and we are to do everything in His name or by His authority (Col. 3:17). For us to be authorized to teach or practice any matter with regard to God’s will, it must be authorized either explicitly or generally, such as the command to “Go” (Matt. 28:19) without specifying how to “Go”. As has been previously documented, the New Testament is silent regarding the use of instrumental music in Christian worship. How can we not see that playing music instruments during worship is an addition to the type of music that is specifically authorized in the New Testament? In light of the examples we have regarding progressing beyond the scriptures, can we not also see that attempting to add instrumental music to our worship using generic authority changes what we are specifically instructed to do? The “arguments” against microphones, song books, pitch pipes, etc. fail to measure up because they neither violate nor add to the command regarding music because they are not forms of music.

We are severely in need of balance, not to be confused with any desire to be a “moderate” or to find some elusive mid-point between two man-made extremes. When I speak of balance I mean wholeness or completeness. Faith and works are inseparable when one is balanced (James 2:14-26). We also need balance in worship. “God is spirit and those that worship Him must worship in spirit and truth” (John 4:24). Like faith and works, spirit and truth must co-exist in order to be pleasing to God. These and similar qualities can only be in harmony when we take the proper action with the proper attitude.

Mark Waggoner

Mark's discourse on music and the authority of the New Testament is one of the best I've ever seen. Thanks for your insight.

Smith raises more questions about instrumental music. The first pertains to the "music and dancing" performed at the prodigal son's return. The implication is that since music was mentioned in that parable, then we should incorporate it when people come forward to "join the Church." This argument is akin to that which says that since Christ worshiped in the Temple with instruments, then we should have them in our worship.

Now I don't expect people who advocate instruments in worship to believe or accept my arguments, because they will use instruments despite anything we and the New Testament say to the contrary. Nevertheless, the "Christian age" had not gone into effect when Christ physically walked the earth, because He had not yet died and risen. Christ was obligated to fulfill the commands of the Mosaic Law, which included worship with instruments in the Temple. The music in the parable of the prodigal son can be likened to musical celebrations under the Mosaic Law, for as the Chronicles relate, instrumental music accompanied burnt offerings--a religious celebration if you will. But Christ laid the Mosaic Law to rest with His death, burial, and resurrection, as we've said many times over and have previously given New Testament references which state the same. Thus, there is no basis for using instruments in Christian worship based on principles of the Mosaic Law.

Smith's second argument speculates that early Christians using instruments would have been at higher risk for persecution, supposedly because the instruments would have identified them as Christians. Thus, God allegedly did not command instruments in the early days to spare the first Christians but doesn't forbid them today because He is "practical"(?). That's wishful thinking and indeed highly speculative. It also doesn't make much sense.

Actually, one means by which the early Christians could have avoided persecution was to use instruments, for their worship would have paralleled that of Jewish Temple worship or even that of the pagans who used instruments in their worship. To the casual, non-Christian observer, such worship with instruments would not have appeared "Christian" or "unusual." No, it was the message of Christianity, the Gospel, and not a matter of instruments, which subjected early Christians to persecution. If early Christians had wanted to escape persecution, all they had to do was to keep quiet about the Gospel, not refrain from playing instruments.

So instead of worrying and speculating about what God's motives about instruments might have been in the early Church vs. what they are today, why not trust that God's motives are the same today as they were 2,000 years ago regarding music in Christian worship, as outlined in Eph. 5:19 and Col 3:16? These passages specify vocal music. If the NT doesn't authorize instrumental music in Christian worship, leave it alone, don't assume anything to the contrary, and don't presume to meddle by adding that which is not specified in worship. And please, we've already covered the bit about air conditioners, rest rooms, etc., and whether or not they conflict with NT doctrine. Have faith in what is written in the New Testament.

I'm in a rush and have very little time, but wanted to respond specifically to one point:

____________________-
[And yet, David did it. And he was Dad’s favorite, before and after. Go figure.] Figure this – David also committed adultery and murder. Do these actions by “Dad’s favorite” authorize us to commit these sins today? It is [folly] to substitute our wants and wishes for God’s will.
________________________

This is correct. However, there are specific commands from God prohibiting adultry, and then, specifically, David is chastised and punished for it(thru the death of the son he had with Bathsheba).

Conversely, when David used his talent to play his harp, something God neither instructed nor prohibited via command, we do know that God found it pleasing.

Surely you see the difference.

Additionally, citing the opinions of religious fellows is interesting, however, not compelling in deciding what the Lord wants from us. Isn't that why we poo-poo the apocryphya? If you were to cite famous coC ministers from 1920, they'd surely be railing against women wearing pants to a Sunday night or Wednesday night service... and that's based in culture and tradition, not an issue of sin. Wesley and the others quoted also lived within culture and tradition and no doubt had opinions formed by their time, despite their penchant for thinking outside the box of the religious norms of their day.

Fascinating, btw, that Methodists and Baptists are quoted, almost as though you think they might go to heaven or something...

FWIW... I don't attend an instrumental coC and really don't care to. I'm happy where I am. But the Chris Rice CD in the player in my kitchen will surely keep me out of heaven, 'eh?

So is the presumption that the definition of "truth" is "according to the rules?"

Whenever I hear the words "spirit and truth" explained, it always sounds to me like "truth" means something different than I picture when I hear the world truth.

Is truth not akin to "sincere?" Without wax?

If so... is that equal in definition to "without violating stated rules?"

I guess I am not getting that connection. If so, I would think the proper translation should've been "in spirit and correctly."

When I consider the "pattern" supposedly laid out in the NT as it is portrayed by some here, it seems the "pattern" is said to describe the joint activities designed to worship God that take place when Christians get together in the same place at the same time. Rarely is the Christian walk, the need for prayer and daily study, the need to refrain from idolatry and evil talk on the list of things that are supposedly "patterned."

This is odd to me. God gave us 27 written documents through which he communicated that which he wants from us. In all those documents, there is not a single outline of a "service." Of an "assembly." All we really know is what they did when they got together by virtue of incidental statements, and presume that therefore we are commanded to do those all of those things every single time we're together in order to get our church card punched for the day.

It just seems to me if God was so adamently concerned he'd not have arranged things so that we needed to piece together a puzzle via many different examples of what we had to do. With the things he proclaims sinful via his inspired writers, there is no mistake to easily make. "It has been said that you should not kill your neighbor, but I say..."... "An elder should be the husband of one..."... I could go on and on about the many specifics we're given. And yet this concern over the specifics of what is going on in the room while we sing, well... God had so many opportunities to forbid it. He forbade SO many things, emphatically.

Why do you think he didn't come right out and say a "Thou shalt not use instruments when thou doest sing praises to the Lord, other than thy voice, which is a living tribute to the heavens?"

Why did he omit such a direct, undeniable command if it's as important a thing to him as you have assigned it to be?

Carol: "Why do you think he [God] didn't come right out and say a 'Thou shalt not use instruments when thou doest sing praises to the Lord, other than thy voice, which is a living tribute to the heavens?' Why did he [God] omit such a direct, undeniable command if it's as important a thing to him as you have assigned it to be?"

Dr. Crump: Vocal music is most important, because the New Testament, not us, has made it an undeniable command. Yet human speculations continue to wail with, "What if?" "Why not?" "Why didn't God do it another way and make it all easier for us?" Others have posed the same or similar questions on this site. It is more pertinent to ask:

• Since God authorizes vocal music in the New Testament but mentions nothing about instruments, shouldn't that be sufficient in and of itself, if you truly trust in the Lord?
  
  
• Do you trust God so little that you would have Him extend the New Testament to include a comprehensive, exhaustive list of each and every "Thou shalt and shalt not" for every conceivable issue in the Church?
  
  
• Can you not comprehend that what God wrote in the New Testament about vocal music He intended for us to obey, and what God did not write about instruments in the New Testament He intended for us to leave alone?
  
  
• Can you not comprehend that what God has written in the New Testament He has deemed as sufficient instructions which, if we follow them faithfully, will please Him, whereas deviating from them will not?

We all need to reread Mark Waggoner's recent post about music and the authority of the New Testament. We need to keep in mind Paul's admonition that we stay within the bounds of Scripture, implementing nothing which goes contrary to written NT doctrine. Unfortunately to many, this is too "narrow" a concept to follow. Nevertheless, we have the doctrine of vocal music as laid out in the NT. The use of instruments is a man-contrived augmentation to that doctrine.

If you read the Bible AFTER the musical idolatry at Mount Sinai for which Stephen etal inform us GOD TURNED THEM OVER TO WORSHIP THE STARRY HOST. Amos 5f and Isaih 5 explains it in detail.

He quarantined the "civilians" from the Tabernacle and defined the Qahal, synagogue or "church in the wilderness." Read Numbers 10 with feeling, look up the word Alarm or Triumph, follow it to see that Judas would try this on Jesus.

The synagogue never VIOLATED that rule even when it became more institutionalized after the RETURN. Only when doing the Sacrificial System, in Jerusalem, OUTSIDE the holy places could Levites ONLY make sound and not music. IF you intend to mimic the Levitical Warrior Musicias you NEED a direct command which says, "NOW, you can make a noise in church EVEN IF you are not a Levite." Because this was done only in or around Jerusalem and the temple, you need a DIRECT PERMISSION slip to do that in Nashville. Because it was only to SERVE (meaning hard bondage) the priests (not God) in the Sacrificial System, you need a permission slip that says AFTER Jesus Christ has been slain with MUSICAL MOCKERY, it is now OK for you to continue the NOISE which was clearly EXORCISM because it was "like the nations" and not Like God.

There was NO CULTURE of "worship" with instruments any more than they held History School to the beat of musical instruments: minimal common sense and a direct command.

Everyone knew that the pagans used music to seduce customers--that generation PIPED to get their targets to sing and dance. In and around ALL temples--specificially defined in Jerusalem--there were swarms of prostitutes and sodomites and they knew that FLUTE-GIRL meant PROSTITUTE and were governed by the same official in the Greek world by the Dung Heep official. Jesus refused to do that as would any decent young boy.

Why, under the circumstances, would a rational God feel the NEED to say "thou shalt not do music when thou dost thy BIBLE CLASSES."

IF instruments were going to be part of the SCHOOL OF CHRIST it would absolutely have had to have been DIRECTLY COMMANDED. That is because "there was no praise service" in the synagogue. In a sense Paul did by commanding that the singing AND melody be IN THE HEART.

If you need a LAW to keep you from MAKING MUSIC when Jesus meets to be our Teacher through the word wouldn't that make you a LEGALIST? If history proves that everytime you hit your head with a hammer it hurts, would you need a law against hitting your head? If MUSICIANS always intended to sow discord and always did, do you REALLY need a law saying "thou cannot sow discord with MUSIC?" But, Legalism and the LAW OF SILENCE and using INFERENCES would have some PhDuh saying, "Well-uh, He didn't say thou shalt not sow discord WITH INSTRUMENTS" so we gonna do it, spite of hell

"Everyone knew that the pagans used music to seduce customers--that generation PIPED to get their targets to sing and dance."

This is goofy logic. This presumes that anything that man uses for evil cannot be used for good in another venue, doesn't it?

Wine was used by people to get drunk and be drunkards, but it was also created by Christ at a wedding and served at the first Lord's Supper.

'Nuff said.

The only reason I mentioned David was that he was being used as a source of authority for using instrumental music in New Testament worship. Yes, there are specific commands that prohibit adultery; however, there are also specific commands that prohibit adding to God’s word and if, by your own admission, the New Testament is silent in authorizing this practice then those who use instrumental music in worship are violating these commands. I’m glad that you found the reformationalist’s viewpoints interesting as that was my intent. The obvious conclusion that I wanted to be drawn is that the wholesale use of musical instruments in worship is a relatively new deviation and until recent (modern) history was used by the minority.

If musical instruments are to be adopted in New Testament worship then the principles of restoring New Testament Christianity have to be given up. God was also pleased with the burning of incense in the Old Testament so, by the same token as instrumental music, it can also be practiced during New Testament worship today? We must walk by faith and that only comes from God’s word (Romans 10:17). Where there is no word there can be no faith and if we walk where there is no word, we are not walking by faith but by opinion. From the examples I gave earlier, we can clearly see that there is nothing man can do acceptably to/for the Lord unless He has ordered it.

Mark Waggoner

"we can clearly see that there is nothing man can do acceptably to/for the Lord unless He has ordered it."

Then I suggest we do away with our 4-part harmony, our songbooks, and our song leaders. One might say, "But those are all to help us sing, to help us stay together, to make it sound more full, to help us know the pitch, to let us know when to stop singing and when to start, and they don't change the fact that my voice is singing."

And those on the instrumental side of the aisle would ascribe many of those same attributes to the piano with which they sing along...

Sooooo....

Do we care at all about whether our hearts are engaged?

Just askin'.

Now, you forgot seats and lights and winders and toilet tissure and bibles and heaters and coolers and, and, and.

If everything done in churches of Christ could be proven to be sinful that would not give you one jot or tittle of authority for instruments. I think what the Christian church has often confessed: "You are sinning by singing in church so we gonna sin by adding instruments." Bad theology: sounds like Wart and the other hate mongers.

Donnie, have you noticed what your "lady creature" is trying to do again at the other place. She must need some male help real bad: she got ATTITUDES real bad. I just fall on my face and praise God that she will not be the lady returning in her red Jeep tomorrow. Isn't God guuuud?

With or without the instrument in a church building does not declare man righteous before a holy God.

Question: Does biblical justification make us righteous or does it declare us righteous when we, in fact, we are not? There are two possible ways to be just. Read Romans 10:1-3; Phil. 3:9.

By law. To be declared righteous when and because one actually is righteous. This was the righteousness of Christ. Hebrews 4:15.
By grace. To be declared righteous even though we are not and can never hope to be. Romans 4:5.

I had hoped someday on this forum, I would draw the term "Justification" into a study from Ken, Donnie, John or Bill. But,their lives are so wrapped up in "worship without the instrument" that they have missed the question: why the Cross of Christ?

The plan of God for our justification is GRACE.
The death of Christ, Romans 5:9; 3:21-26. The righteousness of Christ WAS NOT His perfectly sinless life, it culminates in His perfect obedience to the Father in the voluntary submission to the cross on OUR behalf.

Please, The announcement of this way of justification is the heart or foundation of the Gospel. Read Romans 1:16,17; 1 Cor. 1:18-25 (with or without music).
In this plan, Jesus takes our sin (on the cross) and we take His righteousness. 2 Cor. 5:21.

The righteousness of Jesus is imputed to the obedient sinner. James 2:23,24. This righteousness that has been attributed to us "in Christ" must be understood as the way GOD SEES US IN CHRIST, not as what WE ACTUALLY ARE.

Read Acts 22:16 again....This verse must be understood in the light of Old Testament ceremonial purification. When cermonial sprinkling was done, it did not miraculously change the person, only his STANDING before God and the people.

Read Romans 3:28; 4:3, for the MEANS of OUR justification.
It take professional help to miss this, with or without a musical instrument!.....Faith is the sinner's RESPONSE to the Gospel! The ACT of faith DOES NOT contribute to the righteousness that makes us ACCEPTABLE to a RIGHTEOUS GOD.
Christian.....that is Christ's alone. The reception of the FREE GIFT does not detract from its gracious character.

Grace is a state we are in (in the mind of God, not, the minds of the pious, sanctimonious men sitting in the first pew, in black suit, or, in Donnie's case, up in the balcony). If we lived the most consistent Christian life possible, God would still not owe us a thing. We are free from self-centeredness. We are moved, in principle, from the realm of "have to" to that of "get to." If that doesn't make you shout "Amen," nothing will!

Keep in mind: the degree of santification which one has achieved, can never be the test of "JUSTIFICATION."
The motive for personal righteousness is the desire to have a living faith and the desire to express gratitude for justification. God does not grant us miraculous spirituality, He preserves the principle of freedom of the will regarding our relationship with Him. We are conformed to that which dominates our mind, or the "law of association." Study 2 Cor. 3:12-18; Col. 3:16,17---Eph. 5:18-19; 26; Ro. 12:1,2; 2 Thess. 2:13 as one being "justified" in God's mind.

When one judges a "Christian" (one who is "in Christ"), by his mode of worship, you are, as Ken would say, "Biblical illiterate!"

I often see on this site, various versions of this statement: (I'll paraphrase)

"All you change agents bring up buildings, microphones, women's heads covered, holy kisses, kitchens, song books... Tese topics have been covered extensively on this site and they are an invalid argument, and all they do is cause a fruity loop."

I want to believe you, butI need some help. As a relative newcomer to this site, I haven't been able to find an explanation on how any of those items are excluded from our worship. I'm honestly not saying they aren't there, I just can't find them.

I won't throw them all out at once, but I think we can make it easy. Take one at a time. Just explain one thing to me, if you will/can. I understand forbidding instruments on the basis of being silent where the Bible is silent. I don't understand not requiring women to cover their heads if we are going to speak where the Bible speaks.

It's been a while since the last time I posted, but I was reading through Acts the other day and I came across Acts 21:21-24. It's kinda interesting. I know that we've hashed and rehashed lots in this long argument, but bear with me for a few moments. We've established that in the OT it was ordered to use instruments in praising God, but the coC (non-instrumentalist) side of this argument tells us that they aren't to be used anymore. Well if you look closely at Acts 21:21-24 you'll see that Paul (I hope Kenny and Cruz and Crump believe that what Paul taught was right) clearly shows, beyond the shadow of a doubt, that he is still "following in obedience to the law." If Paul was a fairly decent example of a good Christian, and he was "following in obedience to the law" (or "walkest orderly, and keepest the law" for you KJV only people) and the "law" says to play insturments when praising God, then I would think that we should use insturments to praise God. If you deny this and try to back it up with other Scripture, then you will be contradicting the Bible with the Bible and then it become faulty...just sayin'.

I believe that it was your buddy Ken who stated that the Psalms were a secondary and poetic law. So then, Psalm 150 should be enough to quench your thirst (I believe it's been stated enough that you know what it says). Will you answer the question now? Paul followed the Jewish customs as stated in Acts 21:21-24, answer the real question instead of raising old arguments please.

Sethy says It's been a while since the last time I posted, but I was reading through Acts the other day and I came across Acts 21:21-24. It's kinda interesting. I know that we've hashed and rehashed lots in this long argument, but bear with me for a few moments. We've established that in the OT it was ordered to use instruments in praising God, but the coC (non-instrumentalist) side of this argument tells us that they aren't to be used anymore.

I will haul out a Card Class 101aaa, slow one from the slow group to prove to you that God DID NOT COMMAND instruments to PRAISE in the Old Testament. In fact, He outlawed them for the Qahal or "church in the wilderness. Later, the elders [always the guilty ones] had fired God and he had (already at Mount Sinia because of their musical idolatry) turned them over to worship THE STARRY HOST (Acts 7 ... 101aaa).

They wanted a king and kingdom JUST LIKE THE GENTILE NATIONS so they could WORSHIP like the pagans and God often grants prayers but warned them that the kings would confiscate the young boys to make and blow "instruments of chariots" to run before His chariots just like any ungodly oriental potentate.

When David sinned so that he could never face God again at Gibeon God gave David a JEBUSITE HIGH PLACE where he could make the KINGLY-CIVIL animal sacrifices. In Hezekiah's reform God commanded the PRIESTS TRUMPETS but David commanded the instruments which were NOT part of the priestly function. This was also a Plague Stopping Sacrifice and Hezekiah went all the way back to David to find any PATTERNISM. None of the Levitical Warrior singers / instrumentalists could enter the Holy Place as a carnal TYPE of the body or church of Christ -- even to clean out the garbage. Doesn't God send special MESSAGES to those with Eyes and Ears?

With the musicators standing in the holy places CLAIMING to lead you into God's presence they CLAIM to be God and are therefore the Abomination of Desolation performed in the literal temple and now being performed in the HARLOT CHURCHES. You are in a panic trying to GET RID OF THE PLAGUE you call the "ANTI-instrumental crowd" and when God pours out His wrath the word means ORGE: turning people into singers, clappers, musicians, buffoons, jesters and--as with the musical idolatry at Mount Sinai--making you into a LAUGHINGSTOCK. The "audience" is not laughing WITH you they are laughing AT you and neither can tell you why. God is waving the hands and pulling the strings but soon they will break and all of the musicators (Re 18:22) who perform SORCERY (18:23) will grasp that God has removed the candles (23)

We will do something for the FAST ONES in the slow group and prove that Paul went to Jerusalem AFTER being warned, but he had to go to fulfil the prophecy of preaching to the JEWS and to KINGS. David SPONSORED the lads who were to make a VOW but this was not truly religious. David went ONLY to give notice and NOT to make a vow, but his actions STIRRED UP hostility as God and Paul knew that it would do and Paul got a chance to PROVE that the NEW way of CLEANSING was preached "Arise and be baptized and WASH AWAY thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord." Chapter 22 just to the right of chapter 21. So, if you read the whole story and the context Paul went there knowing that he would REPUDIATE the ceremonial washing which could NOT remove sins. Isn't providence wonderful.

Kenny, it’s good to see that you finally earned your “101aaa slow class” card, it took you a long time to reach this point and maybe someday you’ll reach 201aab, but let’s not get ahead of ourselves. Now Kenny, you should know very well that Paul wasn’t there to “repudiate” the cleansing that they went through (I also don’t know why you’re talking about David in Acts, are you reading from the KenJV again?) He did it specifically to show that Christendom wasn’t speaking out against Moses or saying that the Jewish customs were evil. Here I’ll quote it in language you understand, “Acts 21:21–And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.” (KJV) And concerning the Chapter 22 thing, yes Paul went to teach baptism, but repudiation wasn’t involved whatsoever concerning the ceremonial cleansing of the Jews. It's always a pleasure to teach you "101aaa class" card carrying types.

From Acts 21:21-24, Sethy concludes that, since the Mosaic Law commanded instrumental music, and since Paul kept the Law, then Christians should use instrumental music in worship. This is somewhat akin to the argument that, since Christ worshiped in the Temple with instrumental music, then Christians should worship with instruments as well. (Ignore Eph. 5:19 and Col. 3:16.)

It should be obvious that Paul kept Jewish ways and customs as a "foot in the door" to gain Jewish converts. Paul described himself as being “all things to all men” in 1 Cor. 9:20-22 (KJV); that is, if Paul preached unto the Jews, he followed Jewish ways, even the Mosaic Law; if he preached unto the Gentiles, he followed Gentile ways, all for purposes that he might “gain some” for Christ. Yet he made sure that he did nothing which would violate the Law of Christ (v. 21). However, at no time did Paul teach that Gentiles were obligated to adopt Jewish ways, or the Mosaic Law, in order to be saved. In fact, Paul stressed that, once anyone obeyed the Gospel of Christ, continuing to follow the Mosaic Law only made Christ of no effect (Gal. 5:1-6 KJV), for they could only be saved through Christ, not the Mosaic Law. Paul initially may have used his Jewish heritage and the Mosaic Law as an advantage to converting the Jews, but after their conversion, it was Paul’s intent that they see the superiority and authority of the Law of Christ over the Mosaic Law.

The Galatians passage above uses circumcision as one example of following the Mosaic Law. Paul notes that those who insist on following even just one aspect of that Law are debtors to follow ALL of it (all the rituals, washings, purifications, animal sacrifices, instrumental music, etc.). People cannot pick and choose what they want from that Law and discard the rest; they must follow everything as stipulated with the Mosaic Law or be in violation of it. Those who argue for instruments based on the Mosaic Law MUST make animal sacrifices, purify themselves, etc. as well, or be in violation of the Mosaic Law. We’ve been over this time and time again.

That the early Christian leaders also did not impose the Mosaic Law on new converts is further seen in Acts 15. Although some men from Judea had erroneously required that converts be circumcised and keep the Mosaic Law in order to be saved (v. 1), the brethren sent Paul, Barnabas, and others around to various churches to correct the misunderstanding. Verse 24 states:

“Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment.”

Therefore, just because Paul observed the Mosaic Law only to gain converts from Jews does not grant us license today to base elements of Christian worship on selected portions of the Mosaic Law, as Paul himself emphasized in the passage from Galatians above. With its abundant rules and regulations, the Mosaic Law is indeed “legalistic.” Thus, Christians today who justify their worship with anything connected with the Mosaic Law (such as instrumental music) are not only LEGALISTS themselves, they also shame Christ, for they make Christ of no effect.

Bill, you must be a contortionist because you made that Scripture twist over, under, around and through. Listen, it’s not my fault if you can’t read a verse correctly. If you look closely...actually no if you just briefly observe Galations 5:1-6 you can see that if you are looking for salvation in the Mosaic Law then you have made Christ no effect. If you are trying to obtain salvation through the Mosaic Law then you must follow all the Mosaic Law. You know what, I’m a Circumcised Christian. I don’t follow the Mosaic Law, nor am I required to. And something else now, if Paul was using the customs of the day to reach people, shouldn’t we do the same? If he used music to reach the culture, then why aren’t we doing that...actually why aren’t you doing that? Paul did emphasize the Galations verse, but only if you were trying to gain salvation through the Mosaic Law. I think you need to attend that 101aaa class that Kenny just earned his card for. I’m also sick of seeing all of the Scriptures twisted to the point of insanity so I’m leaving the darkside and going over to www.faithsite.com HoldenOn told me about it, he said that Kenny goes by "love bee" there, there's an irony for ya.

Sethy, you are not a disciple: you are a SEED PICKER. These were symbols of DEMON SPIRITS: as soon as anyone plants the seed the old RAVEN is right there to suck it up. Why? He does not have any choice: he is an alien being, a fallen angel and that is the same role as musicators trying to silence the Word of God.

But, the SEED of Christ will win in the end. Mumble, mutter, toilsome troubler: eat drink and make Mary.

Sethy's response is as I expected. He's better off at faithsite. Yes, Gal. 5:1-6 deals with those desiring salvation from the Mosaic Law. That's obvious, or it should have been from my post. Yet it remains that those who would incorporate ANY part of the Mosaic Law (like instrumental music) into worship are bound to follow the WHOLE Law, as Paul said, not I. You don't pick and choose aspects of a law to obey and throw the rest out. It's an all or none principle, also as Paul said.

Talk about twisted ideas: Sethy made the TWISTED connection that since Paul followed the Mosaic Law, which incorporated instrumental music, and since Paul was supposed to be a good Christian, then we should use instruments as well. What Sethy can't seem to understand is that Paul used the Mosaic Law ONLY as leverage to get the Jewish ear and ultimately to convert them over to the Law of Christ. Yet Sethy would take one selected element of the Old Law (instrumental music), throw the rest out, and mix that one element with the Law of Christ. Twisted indeed.

Paul and culture? Paul's "all things to all men" pertains to evangelism outside the Church, outside the worship service. Once people are converted, they are expected to leave cultural perferences behind and not pollute the Church with worldly fads and worship innovations not authorized in Scripture. In other words, the worship assembly is for the edification of the saints, those who have already been converted; the worship assembly is not a "cultural grab bag" for prospective converts.

Yes, I believe it's time that Sethy moved on to faithsite.com, where he would be more comfortable among the likes of HoldenOn (Rick).

The Gospel of Christ transcends everything. It transcends gender, it transcends all races, it transcends social classes, and it most assuredly transcends all cultures. Accepting the Gospel is dependent neither upon gender, nor race, nor social class, nor culture. As far as the Gospel is concerned, “There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus” (Gal. 3:28 KJV).

Yet two fallacious questions from Sethy’s parting diatribe of April 1 (he'll be back; most detractors can't really ever leave ) would blend the world’s culture with the Gospel: “If Paul was using the customs of the day to reach people, shouldn’t we do the same? If he used music to reach the culture, then why aren’t we doing that?” This refers to Paul’s “all things to all men” in 1 Cor. 9:20-23 KJV.

First of all, the New Testament mentions nothing about Paul specifically using music to “reach the culture.” Second, those embracing the Change Movement hold that we must become like the unsaved (adopt their ways, customs, and culture) in order to reach the unsaved for Christ. Those who teach that believers must use the world and act like the world for the sake of evangelism grossly misunderstand Paul’s purpose and method of evangelism in 1 Cor. 9, for Paul never sinned or compromised himself in order to reach sinners. Yet the Change Movement teaches that we must use the pop-rock music of the world (music long associated with sexual promiscuity, drug abuse, violence, and rebellion against authority), the off-color language of the world, and the raucous entertainment of the world in order to reach the world for Christ. This fallacious philosophy cannot possibly be supported by Scriptures such as 1 John 2:15-16 (love not the things of the world), Matt. 6:24 (no man can serve two masters, God and the world), Gal. 1:10 (pleasing God or man), or James 4:4 (the friendship of the world is enmity with God).

Matt D. Costella’s article, “‘All Things to All Men’: A Scriptural Look at Modern Evangelism Techniques in Light of First Corinthians Chapter Nine,” is well worth reading in this regard. It provides further insight into the Change Movement's gross misapplication of 1 Cor. 9. The link is:
http://www.fundamentalbiblechurch.org/Foundation/fbcallth.htm

When one reads 1 Corinthians 9, a Christian would do well to understand the standard of judgment set forth by the "King" spoken to the "righteous" in Matthew 25.

The church at Corinth knew who the "brethern" of verse 40 were. They were the ones (apostles) who the King was refering: "I was hungry and YOU gave me meat: I was thirsty and YOU gave me drink: I was a stranger, and YOU took me in: Naked, and YOU clothed me: I was sick and YOU visited me: I was in prison and YOU came to see me."

Jesus said, "Inasmuch as you have done it unto ONE of the least of these my brethern you have done it unto me." A man who teaches apostolic doctrine is worthy of his hire and the church at Corinth knew this. Paul had no need for material things. He was sustained by Christians......Oh yes, they understood Jesus' teching of Matthew 25. Jesus said, "He that receives you receives me, and he that receives me receives him that sent me." Read again the judgment of the "them on the left hand."

Could it be this is why the "non instrumental" church of Christ is dying?....Their preacher's are out selling insurance, driving school buses, and janitors at the local school or hospital to feed their family. They have no time to study the Word.....Ask one of these devout men to exegeses John 20:21-23. Have him explain Jesus' conversation with Nicodemus, explain Justification or Sanctification.
He will hang his head, and no doubt ask: "do you have enough insurance? my kids need new shoes."

While Christians are no longer bound by the tenets of the Mosaic Law in the Old Testament, we find an accurate description of God's character in Isaiah 55:8 (KJV), for we know that God does not change: "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord." Keeping in mind that God does not change, some thoughts from the aforementioned article "All Things to All Men" by Matt Costello are particularly worth emphasizing:

"It becomes evident that while man might take a pragmatic approach to evangelism, God requires fidelity to His Word whether or not man thinks God's way is effective [emphasis Dr. BC]. Compromising the message of the Gospel and the method of reaching the lost may amass great numbers of people who make professions of faith, but God judges man's results solely by whether or not he has been a good steward of the Gospel message--and this includes whether or not he has accomplished God's work according to the dictates of God's Word. The world praises 'results,' but the Lord desires obedience." [See John 14:15 KJV.]

The scripturally effective way to evangelism is simply to preach the Gospel without augmentation through pop culture, without hype, without entertainment, without additions to it, without subtractions from it. For those who desire that which is "modern," we have radio, TV, Internet, video, and printed media by which we can effectively communicate the Gospel to the masses. The masses, however, will not see this simple, scriptural method as "effective," because it transcends the cultures of the world. To the masses, the scriptural method of simple preaching without pop-culture-based entertainment is FOOLISHNESS.

"For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God" (1 Cor. 1:18 KJV). Nothing about catering to pop culture here.

"For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe" (1 Cor. 1:21 KJV). Nothing about catering to pop culture here.

Communicating the Gospel without dragging in pop culture is foolishness and ineffective to the masses, who thrive on entertainment and pleasure. But as far as God is concerned, the pure, unadulterated message of the Gospel is most effective and is all that is necessary to reach those who believe.

Truly, "my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord."

On the other forum we are showing there is not any REMOTE ROOTS or DNA between the Christian church out of the witchcraft of Cane ridge and the wild frontier and the Churches of Christ.

I am also pointing out that Jesus hated Scribes, Pharisees and Hypocrites. For those on BOTH sides I am showing you from the Scriptures Jesus quoted and ALL KNOWN LITERATURE that the Hypocrites were theatrical and MUSICAL performers. The MUSES from which we get MUSIC were UNDER APOLLO who is our Apollyon or Abaddon. They are the LOCUSTS (for we who can read Revelation) or musical performers Apollyon has UNLEASHED on the churches. Their task it to SEPARATE the musicators from those marked with the Word of God.

The take those marked with the musical note (the mark of CAIN) and hold them captive and PUNISH them until Jesus removes them from the presence of the good people. The serpent was a Musical Enchanter in the garden of Eden and is the holy whore of Revelation 18. Lucifer (the singing and harp playing prostitute) and Nimrod who had his musical worship team to "regenerate moralse with external means" and modern science knows that music creates the SPIRITUAL ANXIETY as the laded burden Jesus died to PRY OFF OUR BACKS.

So, just like those in the Book of Enoch, those who have FALLEN away from the presence of the Living Word know that they have fallen beyond redemption. Therefore, they suffer even now knowing that they is NOW WAY back into the presence of the Living or Written Word.

Read up on the Book of Enoch quoted by Jesus, Peter and Jude at least 128 times to tell you FOR WHOM he will come with ten thousand of His saints to EXECUTE JUDGMENT upon the ungodly who would DELIBERATELY SOW DISCORD just to musicate which in ALL of the proof texts Tom Burgess etal use means FORNICATE.

If God does not "change His mind" what is the meaning of the discourse between Abraham and God at Mamre in Genesis 18? Abraham: "Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?" Oh Yes, God did change His mind at Mamre!

When Jesus went to the marriage in Cana of Galilee (John 2:3-5) did He not change His mind for His mother? Oh Yes, God does change His mind!

The parable of the inportunate woman in Luke 18:1-9 is a definate "YES" that God does change His mind.
If not, than why do we need to pray ?

To teach that God does not change His mind is Calvinism at its zenith. If the God of mercy does not change His mind....why do I, as a sinner, ask forgiveness?

"Jack Mann" confuses the unchanging nature of God with God seeming to "change His mind" based on our persistent petitions through prayer and supplication. God Himself said that He does not change:

"For I am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed" (Mal. 3:6 KJV).

This statement explains that God's character, His nature, does not change; His principles do not change over time.

God and Abraham in Gen. 18: God's plan to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah prompted Abraham to bargain intensely for the lives of those in the cities, namely nephew Lot and his family. Did Abraham "change God's mind"? A close examination of the account shows that God very well knew what Abraham had in mind beforehand and desired to see Abraham's "prayer" in the form of his bargaining strategy. God had every intention of saving Lot and his family, provided that they obeyed His instructions to the letter (remember Lot's wife); He still destroyed the cities nonetheless.

Marriage at Cana: Mary asked for wine, and Jesus provided it. He simply respected His mother's wish.

The parable of Luke 18:1-9 teaches that God expects those who trust in Him to offer fervent, persistent prayer.

So why pray? Is it because God doesn't know what we want and we have to tell Him so? Make Him "change His mind"? That limits God considerably and puts little faith in Him. Christ says otherwise:

"But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him" (Matt. 6:7-8 KJV).

So why pray if God already knows what we desire and need? Prayer bonds us to God as child to Father; the child must become submissive and ask of the Father out of profound respect. It is spiritual discipline.

Calvinism or not, if God knows what we are about to ask of Him in prayer, then God surely KNOWS EVERYTHING about us and what is to transpire in the universe, because He has laid it all out from beginning to end.

By His own Word, God does not change.

Dr. Crump, you are then saying, that men can accomplish nothing except by God's sacred command....they cannot by deliberating accomplish anything except what he has already decreed with himself and determines by his secret direction?

Calvin wrote, "Whatsoever men do, they do according to the eternal will and secret purpose of God" ("Eternal Predestination," 205). Mr. Calvin wrote, "When men act perversely, they do so...by the ordaining purpose of God"
(Secret Providence," 241-242). He wrote, "Satan performs his part by God's impulsion" (ICR, I.xvii.2). He writes, "Adam fell, not only by the permission of God, but by His very secret counsel and decree" ("Secret Providence," 224).

Calvinism is deadly, He taught "Determinism," which refers to any philosophy that teaches EVERY event, including human decisions and acts, is ultimately determined or caused by an outside, all-controlling force. The FIRST crucial tentent of Calvinism as a determinism is this: God is the ultimate CAUSE of everything that happens.

My question: How is this consistent with the holiness of God, and with passages such as 1 Tim 2:4 and 1 Peter 3:9?

Dr. Crump, do you then teach that God has two wills?
His revealed, preceptive will, which shows us his hidden, secret, purposive, decretive will, by which he determins all things that will actually happen?

We must deside if two events actually have TWO causes:
the primary, ultimate cause, which is always God; and a secondary, proximate cause, e.g., human beings.
This is how Calvinism excuses God from the blame for sin.
Here, we have the teaching that every act of man "is the product of both causes." Calvin states: "God also enables and promps His rational creatures, as second causes, to function, and that not merely by endowing them with energy in a general way, but by energizing specific acts." Judas could not have made the decision to stay at the table that evening in Jerusalem? Saul of Tarsus could not do anything but go into Damascus?

When you say that "God never changes His mind," this eliminates man's "Free Will." Since God in reality is actually CAUSING every human decision by causing the motives and desire from which they spring, man may "feel" free when he is choosing, but his will is not significantly free.

I will end with this: A truly sovereign God does not need to predetermine or foreordain ALL things in order to maintain complete control over His creation. I note the changing of water into wine at Cana, in John 2. Here, we have a microcosm of God's Creation. This act by the Creator is greater than "granting his Mother's wish." John said, this miracle "manifested his glory (or character); and his disciples believed."

His sovereighty is greater than "fixed."!...A sovereign God is a God who is free to limit himself with regard to his works, a God who is free to bestow the gift of realitive independence upon his creatures. Such freedom does not diminish God's sovereighty; it magnifies it....Thus, He does change His mind.....or, man is "Totally Depraved" as the Calvinist teach....

Whether or not we believe that God has preordained everything that will ever transpire should not weaken our faith in God. God will do as He pleases, whether all is "fixed" or not. I have no trouble in accepting and trusting God as He is. If it pleased God to ordain from the beginning that some shall be saved and others lost, then what is that to those who truly trust Him? On the other hand, if it pleased God to ordain from the beginning that "free will" shall be a factor, what is that to those who truly trust Him? No one can personally "change" the nature or character of God to suit themselves, for God has already said in Malachi that He does not change. Whatever God has set in motion from the beginning of time He has ordained from the beginning of time. I shall not argue this point further, for to speculate and argue about the nature of God beyond what He has told us about Himself is an exercise in futility. Should God desire that we know more about Him and his "secret direction," He will do so according to His own "schedule," not ours.

Thank you Dr. Crump. John Calvin could not have worded your thoughts any better. Jesus said, "you do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God."

Quick!!!!Someone throw Dr. Bill a fruity loop!! He can use it as a life preserver as he is about to sink. Better to cut your losses and live to fight another day.

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How weak and sad!!! You call this an argument ... a rebuttal ... a message? Where's "the beef"?

I agree, Moe, why not JUMP IN YOURSELF: nothing like a giant sized whatever?

The PREDESTIANTEDS are the fallen angels who seduced the faithful people away from the LIVING WORD using mixed sex choirs, musical instruments, appealing dress to exercise the AUTHENTIA authority Paul outlawed and this led to homosexuality between father and son and worse. Read Paul's version in Romans 1.

Lucifer is called the "singing and harp playing prostitute" and contra Max Lucado I don't give HER much hope of being saved.

In Jude we see the POINTER to the book of Enoch endorsed by the New Testament for the REASON God will come with ten thousands of his WARRIORS to hand out judgment: these were the MUSICATORS under Satan's rule.

In Revelation 18 the holy Babylon Whore is predestinated to go back into hell with her singers, musicians etal called SORCERERS from whom God HAS NOT removed theri candles so THERE IS NO LIGHT in them.

How BIG AROUND are you MOE. On TV you looked booth looty and fruity.

I want to offer a perspective that I haven't seen discussed here.

Excuse my rough paraphrase but here goes...

When Jesus spoke on the sermon on the mount in Matthew, he said, "I don't care if you get the rule right if your heart isn't right!" He says if we get our heart right, the rest will follow.

Jesus came and stripped away the complex laws. As he told the woman at the well, "Not on the mountain, or in Jerusalem, but in spirit and truth."

Here's my point. To worship, I ONLY need a group of christians with sincere hearts. I don't HAVE TO have instruments to worship. God has made it so that my voice IS pleasing to him as long as my heart is sincere. I don't even need a song leader! (even though I am one, I know that my function is practical, not required)

God made it simple, sincere christians, together (participating), lifting thier voices to him.

Now, there are things like buildings and sound systems that make life easier, that assist us. But I don't NEED them to worship God.

Just some thoughts...

In Christ,

Mark F.

Now, Marky Mark, you need to go back to John 4 and see iffen you are as smart as the Samaritan loose woman: she understood that "when Messiah comes He will TELL US ALL THINGS." Now, if God is doing the TELLING that pretty well roots out any singers or musicians?

I am sure that SHE understood that SHE was speaking of PLACES to worship. And Jesus doing the TELLING spoke of physical PLACES where natonal worship took place.

Then He said that God ONLY SEEKS those who can worship in the PLACE of the human spirit as it is devoted to the Spirit of TRUTH: where Jesus does the TELLING.

We know that God CANNOT be worshipped in HOUSES made by human hands so there goes the sound system unless you want to use your boom box out in the parking lot.

We know that God WILL NOT be worshipped by the WORKS of human hands: that pretty well rules out the HAND WAVERS and HAND CLAPPERS and KNOB TWISTERS and banjo pluckers?

So, you CAN worship in a closed space but ANYTHING you do to DISTRACT people from Pauls UNIQUE worship word meaning to GIVE HEED to the Word (that what you do in synagogue or class room), PREVENTS all possible worship in the SPIRIT. Clear?

Now, Paul said that we converted Jews NOW worship in the SPIRIT. Then, he contrasted SPIRIT to FLESH. That pretty well rules out the Peter Pans arousing all of the other boylings and girlings to do BODY WORSHIP.

The REASON for worship in the PLACE of the SPIRIT rather than FLESH was that "outside there be concision and DOGS." Booth of these speak of the Cynics or "singer musicians" who are ALWAYS filling the other task as CATAMITE.

Jesus lumped the DOGS with SORCERERS and we know for a fact that the MUSICIANS and instrumentalists in Revelation 18 worked for the Holy Whore and John said that they performed SORCERY to deceive the world. The result was that the CANDLES were blown out and the LAMPSTAND removed and consistent with the Old Testament patternism they would go BACK into Hell with their harps and STILL LIVING harpists.

So, make the children sit down and shut up and TRY the old practice of "singing AND making melody IN THE HEART." Now, the HEART is the SPIRIT which is the place where STRAIGHT people always "made melody" ALL of the PLUCKING or PSALLO words ALWAYS point to older males PLUCKING the harp and singing to SEDUCE young boys who served as "ministers of the goddess."

why is the boom box ok, but not the sound syste? can you back it up with scripture? can you back anything you say up with scripture? you have yet to do it, but all i ask is that you try.