I have recently discovered this site and have spent quite a bit of time reading through the many pages of posts on various topics. Although there are many things on this site that humor me and cause me to wonder whether or not people have anything else to do besides critically disect everything "different" from what they have done for the past hundred or so years in a particular building, I will ask only one question at the present time and await you responses. My question is "do you honestly have scriptural issues with someone raising hands during worship to God?"
The ekklesia is a synagogue is a SCHOOL OF THE BIBLE. Paul outlawed the personal PLEASURING which points specificially to arousal singing or doing anything you would NOT do if you attended a Bible class and Jesus did the teaching. He can, if the elders "teach that which has been taught."
No one should be allowed to go away believing that they have attended a ritual by which you ascend up to God or bring God down. You should not let anyone believe that their hands are an antenna by which they can REACH UP to Jesus Christ Who promised to be with us when we obey "come and learn of ME."
The concept of LIFTING hands can be seen if you watch any Jewish person praying at the Wailing Wall: David lifted up his hands to God's WORD. That is the meaning: you raise your hands as if you are reading the Word of God.
Among the Jews only the High Priest raised his hands among his shoulders: others lifted up their PALMS at about the place you would hold a book.
A stand up comedian said that he had to be careful not to wave his hands above his shoulders or he would be considered queer. A woman who lifts up and waves here hands is attracting attention and DISTRACTING everyone else around her. I think it is quite common for literate women to lift their PALMS up which is not the same as lifting HOLY ARMS: see the difference?
In the ancient world a female who sang, clapped, danced and played an instrument was a prostitute: Flute-player is a synonym for prostitute in the male homosexual symposium. History notes that if a male did that he would certainly be drunk or a homosexual.
The concept of silence includes sedentary and non-invading. I would say that the wide spread practice would assuredly mark a group as "worship centered" which is a pagan concept as opposed to a WORD-centered concept of the ekklesia or synagogue or school of the Bible.
I usually play down your comments and try to, as commanded in I Tim, "respect the older man," but your logic is amazingly corrupt by any definition. You serve a twisted view of history and of the biblical languages.
In this post, you have failed to look at the actual text in I Timothy that people incorrectly use to "Lift Holy Hands."
To your assertion that our meetings should be centered around a "school of the Bible," I thought God desired our worship and our growth and obedience through a richer knowledge of His word. To say that there can be no emotion in the public worship is just plain false.
The fact is, in I Timothy 2:8, Paul writes, "I want men everywhere to lift up holy hands in prayer, without anger or disputing." (NIV) or, "Therefore I want the men in every place to pray, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and dissension. " (NAS)
I would point out a few things.
1. The direction is given for "Holy Hands" to be lifted during prayer.
2. The direction is given to Men. This is evident by the following verses that ask women to adorn themselves in good works, not fancy clothing.
3. To get the full context of this verse you have to go back to I Timothy 1:3-6
"As I urged you upon my departure for Macedonia, remain on at Ephesus so that you may instruct certain men not to teach strange doctrines, nor to pay attention to myths and endless genealogies, which give rise to mere speculation rather than furthering the administration of God which is by faith.
But the goal of our instruction is love from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith.
For some men, straying from these things, have turned aside to fruitless discussion,..."
The context is that there were men that were wasting time with meaningless disputes (hmm...) instead of spending time praying for our nation's leaders so that we can live a peaceful life.
So, by the I Timothy example, it would not be wrong, indeed it would be proper for MEN to lift thier hands during PRAYER.
MY OPINION
The following is my opinion.
I am not bothered by the lifting of hands or any physical gesturing that comes from a sincere heart that is worshiping God. You can have an emotional response to the knowledge of right worship of God.
However, I think many times that young christians feel that they NEED to lift thier hands to show that they are holy. It is like calling someone "Brother Jones or Sister Smith," where the "Brother" or "Sister" has become nothing more than a title. Instead we aught to treat each other like brothers and sister. The language reflects the heart, not vise-versa. The same is true for outward gestures. The gesture reflects the heart, the gesture does not define the heart.
Again, that is my OPINION, and as I have heard time and time again, "Opinions are like armpits, everyone has them and most of them stink!"
Afraid that most of the body worshipers are not interested in context and pagan background which Paul POINTS TO. If youare not interested in understanding what the culture meant by these words you should not presume to teach.
Paul identified many pagan practices which when PERFORMANCE related were often women or homosexual or drunk males. They are all interrelated and Paul puts the downbeat on HOLY and not on singy, clappy, wavey hands. The myths were presented musically or in babbling "prophecy" which had to be "interpreted" and put into verse and PRESENTED. All such presenting roles are identified by Jesus as the SECTARIAN HYPOCRITES.
1 Tim 1:4 Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.
G3454 muthos moo'-thos e as G3453 (through the idea of tuition); a tale, that is, fiction ("myth"): able.
G3453 mueo moo-eh'-o From the base of G3466 ; to initiate, that is, (by implication) to teach:—instruct.
For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue (babbling) speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit (in his/her mind) he speaketh mysteries. 1 Corinthians 14:2
"the condition is that of Ecstasy, the utterances are words or sounds of prayer or praise but are not clear in meaning, and give the impression to the hearer of being mysteries or insane expressions."... This phenomenon seems to include sighs, groanings, shoutings, cries, and utterances either of disconnected words (such as Abba, hosanna, hallelujah, maranatha) or connected speech of a jubilating sort which impresses the observer as ecstatic prayer or psalmodic praise." (Schaff-Herzog, Speaking in Tongues, p. 36)
The worship in Corinth, Ephesus and Colosse before they became Christians was concerned with Dionysus or Bacchus. When Paul said: "don't get drunk with wine" but "sing" Biblical truth in the heart as you "speak" it to one another, he was warning of Bacchus worship which still appealed to certain members of the new body of Christ.
Those DIVERSITIES in Romans 14 which were not permitted for dialog in the assembly included the Orphic and the Pythagoreans who were the only "vegetarians" or bean eaters likely to be in Rome. All of the practices Paul identified speak of SECTARIAN groups devoted to "body worship"
"Now Iamblichus (De Mysteriis, III.ix) goes into the matter of the so-called Corybantic and Bacchic 'frenzies' produced by musical instruments in the Mysteries of Ceres and Bacchus; and in his Life of Pythagoras (xxv) he, further, tells us that:
The whole Pythagoric school went through a course of musical training, both in harmony and touch, whereby, by means of appropriate chants,
they beneficially converted the dispositions of the soul to contrary emotions.
Nimrod is reported to have led about a Musical Worship team of women. They claimed to REGENERATE MORALS THROUGH EXTERNAL MEANS. Too bad that the WARLOCKS (only one to 10,000 women) have fooled the fools about church being synagogue or school of the Bible which Thomas Campbell fully believed.
In the modern sense, speaking of those INITIATES or ADEPTS trained to INDUCE things like "bumping and grinding" and hand waving, we are speaking of Neo Paganism or WITCHCRAFT:
Donandar (duh-NAN-dahr) God of Music and Dance
"Donandar is the god of music and dance. His present-day worshippers include wayfaring minstrels, jugglers, musicians, actors, carnivals, dancers, and circuses.
"Candidates for priesthood in Donandar's cult must be master level with at least two entertainment skills, among other requirements. They have access to divine magic involving illusions and dance.
You should grasp that the word SING in Hebrew is a sound alike word for the traveling, stranger prostitute. And remember that Jesus CAST OUT the Musical Minsters use a word meaning LIKE DUNG because they were performing musical sorcery.
Rubel Shelly sought to procure one of the first Worship Ministers who could help "Lead you into the presence of God." That means REPLACE JESUS CHRIST and stand in the Holy Place (of church architecture and the temple as TYPES). People whose pleasure centers are induced by arousal singing which is always attached to SORCERY (Rev 17-18) are truly lead into PANIC which happens when you through hypnotic suggestion force people to believe that they are TRULY going to LIFT UP to God or "provide a platform upon which God can land." Sure, a Helioport just like the top of the Towers of Babbling.
Position Responsibilities: This person will work with volunteer leaders, ministers and staff to coordinate the planning and presentation of worship activities. Sunday worship activities will reflect the diversity of background and worship styles unique to the Woodmont Hills membership. In addition, "seeker" style assemblies will be planned and presented at other times of the week using contemporary music, drama and teaching formats more familiar to the unchurched segment of our community.
Minimum of Bachelor's degree or equivalent experience in performing arts (music, drama, directing, theatrical programming).
Jesus taught, Paul commanded, John practiced on Patmos and the early church was Bible literate. They knew that IN THE SPIRIT is the place where worship takes place. You cannot PRESENT worship unless you THINK that you are JESUS or are, in fact, a WARLOCK or SORCERERS: a task the performers were happy to acknowledge but those not FAT HEADS AND SIMPLETONS called them PARASITES.
Jesus condemned the SECTARIAN HYPOCRITES and pointed to Isaiah and Ezekiel where SINGERS and INSTRUMENT PLAYERS are the MARK of those SELLING their talent and the audience SEEKING to be entertained.
The definiton of a DEMAGOGUE includes "making use of the POPULAR ARTS" to LIFT PEOPLE up (the meaning of heresy) which in the Greek definitions is intimatelly connected to KLEPTOMANIA.
Lots of evidence proves that singers were PROUD to serve as "the harem of the gods." They were USED by the false teachers to INDUCE the feeling of actually reaching a sexual-like climax with the spirit (Carol Wimber, Vineyard, aka New Wineskins). Of course the LAST act of worship is GIVING OF RESOURCES. Lucian of Samosata had "Alexander" speaking of "blowing the flute and spinning a top to fleece fat heads and simpletons."
So, Simple Simon, why do YOU want to get the CLAP disease?
You may think that you are not under the influence. However, the tingle in the chest, the blood coursing through your veins and even hair standing up on the back of your neck or the child chill is proof that instrumental or vocal music has put you into the frenzies. You will feel worse when the drug high wears off.
The verse specifically says "men" and "holy hands."
What about the women who literally lift up their hands? In fact [when my eyes are open and watching the handlifting event], I notice that most of the lifters are women. Of course, I notice, too, that after several seconds or minutes, their arms get very tired ... and their handlifting is INTERRUPTED.
And speaking of "holy" hands, isn't there an outward appearance or admission to the public that that the handlifter is HOLY? Disgusting to me. I just now thought of something ... some of the European women who do not shave their armpits and wearing short sleeves during the handlifting event!
Gentlemen, I appreciate each of you taking the time to respond to my original post regarding the "lifting of holy hands" during singing... I will do my best to briefly address each response to acknowledge that I have read what you have written..
My first observations have to do with a couple of comments offered by Donnie Cruz. In his post he stated,
"What about the women who literally lift up their hands? In fact [when my eyes are open and watching the handlifting event], I notice that most of the lifters are women. Of course, I notice, too, that after several seconds or minutes, their arms get very tired ... and their handlifting is INTERRUPTED."
I don't mean to sound critical here of your worship to God, Donnie, but to me it sounds like if you focused on your offering more than on the gender or hands/arms position of others you wouldn't find your worship interrupted..
And, you also stated, "And speaking of "holy" hands, isn't there an outward appearance or admission to the public that that the handlifter is HOLY?" Again, forgive me if this sounds critical, but aren't we admonished to be holy as God is holy.. If His saints aren't holy though the blood of Christ are they even worthy to offer spiritual sacrifices to God?? On our own we are not holy.. Apart from the blood of Christ we are unholy.. But, in Christ, we are a holy nation according to Peter.. If I were you I wouldn't worry about someone putting forth the image that they are holy by lifting their hands toward God and start worrying about how we look when we bicker about the raising of holy hands..
Second, I think the post by David Rhoades clearly defines the issue here.. He stated, "No, Not At All! I think it's just fine, as long as it's your worship service. For me it would be a distraction. You see that is where the problem is. You are not content to do it at your service. You want to be able to do it at my worship service, and you want me to be happy with it."
For one thing, I do not understand the "my worship service" mentality.. As a child of God, a member of the Lord's church, I am not limited to offering worship in one location.. If I travel from my home congregation and visit another congregation am I to refrain from lifting my hands to God in worship just because you don't and are uncomfortable with it?? And, what are you doing watching me worship anyways?? What are you thinking about while you are watching me -- your worship or my actions?? Is the real issue my arms/hands position or your focus during worship?? Besides, how much noise does my raising my hands make that it distracts you from offering your worship?? How does that distract you?? Also, why do you have to be happy about my raising my hands?? (Note: I do not lift my hands during singing, never have. I am only speaking in the first person to make my point)..
Honestly gentlemen, do you not see why I am questioning you on this?? Can you not see the "silly sounds" of your arguments??
Third, Ken, I honestly don't know what to say about your posts.. I have never encountered anyone quite like you.. I am sure that if I could decipher the "DaKen Code" I would learn some very interesting things from you.. However, you remind me of the joke I heard about one preacher who constantly preached on baptism. After the eldership requested that he preach from the book of Genesis, thinking that he wouldn't be able to speak about baptism, he began his sermon -- "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth, and the earth was without form and void and darkness was upon the face of the deep and the spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters..." and this leads us to our topic for today - the subject of baptism..
For some reason, it seems that no matter what the discussion you end up tracing a line through singing, dancing, clapping, prostitutes and pagan worship.. When I listen to you I get totally confused.. You almost have me believing that since pagan worship involved sexual activities that it would be wrong for me and my wife to engage in sex.. Even if pagan worship involved the raising of hands, clapping and such, the question is, does that mean that God's children can't raise their arms or hands in worship to Him?? Afterall, didn't God create man with arms and hands?? Surely it wouldn't be wrong to raise them while worshipping Him..
Fourth, having said all of the above, I believe Mark offered the best advice in this whole discussion when he stated, " The following is my opinion. I am not bothered by the lifting of hands or any physical gesturing that comes from a sincere heart that is worshiping God. You can have an emotional response to the knowledge of right worship of God. However, I think many times that young christians feel that they NEED to lift thier hands to show that they are holy. It is like calling someone "Brother Jones or Sister Smith," where the "Brother" or "Sister" has become nothing more than a title. Instead we aught to treat each other like brothers and sister. The language reflects the heart, not vise-versa. The same is true for outward gestures. The gesture reflects the heart, the gesture does not define the heart. Again, that is my OPINION, and as I have heard time and time again, "Opinions are like armpits, everyone has them and most of them stink!"
Finally, I believe this issue falls in the realm of opinion.. If someone wants to lift his hands while singing to God, who am I to judge his heart or the position of his hands?? If it makes me uncomfortable and disturbs my worship, perhaps I need to FOCUS on my worship and not my fellow worshippers hand and arm position..
Should I stand, kneel or sit when I pray?? Should I leave my eyes open or close them?? Does it matter?? Should I stand, kneel or sit when I sing?? Should I leave my hand down, in my pockets, to my side or raise them to God?? Does it honestly matter??
God forgive us for making mountains out of pieces of sand...
Paul said, "Everything is lawful, but not everything is profitable" (Paraphrase mine). He also said not to do things if it causes problems for the less mature.
Funny thing about maturity, some of the most mature in age are the least mature spiritually.
But that's our jobs as christians! Paul writes to Timothy and tells him to stand up against wrong teaching and then turns around and tells him to treat the older man with the respect that you would give your dad and the younger man like he is your brother. While I disagree with many of the "laws" touted as correct here on this site, I agree with Mr. Cruz's assertion that things that cause division aught not be implemented.
But off that soapbox....
MY POINT
You stated, "If it makes me uncomfortable and disturbs my worship, perhaps I need to FOCUS on my worship and not my fellow worshippers hand and arm position.." While I agree that I always should strive for deeper worship, what goes on around me affects my worship. God would not have called us to come together and worship if there were not a relationship between self, others, and God in the worship experience. We need God, but we also need one another.
Example... The Lord's Supper
We have tried to make the Lord's Supper such a personnal experience that we have often missed out on the comming togetherness that occurs. Yes, the Lord's Supper is a memorial to Christ's Death and Ressurection, but it is also a shared meal, a celebration where christians come together for this memorial.
Don't get me wrong, the corporate worship is not some social club. That is what Paul gripes about when he says, "Don't you have home's to eat in?" That congregation had turned what was supposed to be worship into a social event.
We draw closer to one another when we draw closer to God. Break any one of those lines and the whole equation falls apart.
BETTER QUIT PROOF TEXTING: First, the Lord's Supper was NOT a common meal. Paul said that if you are HUNGRY then EAT AT HOME. Is that too hard? Nextly, don't make Paul into a liar by failing to care about CONTEXT.
All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not. 1 Cor. 10:23?
The church is SCHOOL OF THE BIBLE: the word EDIFY means to EDUCATE. God does NOT NEED to be praised IN ORDER to prevent Him from hurting you. That is one of the oldest, most ignorant, superstitious, paganistic, patternististic PROFESSION known to mankind. The OLDEST profession.
IN 1 COR 10: Paul uses as the CAUSE of being an apostate the FALL from grace because of the MUSICAL IDOLATRY at Mount Sinai. Yes,even those who had faith, were baptized and received the gift of the Holy Spirit (Christ) to lead them FELL. Their musical "worship" was their prayer and God TURNED THEM OVER to worship the Starry Host:
IN ORDER THAT YOU NOT BE IGNORANT AND PERVERT GOD'S HOLY WORD:
Marky, everyone including Stephen in Acts 7 shows what the BECAUSE OF TRANSGRESSION was. For that sin God ABANDONED them to worship the starry host (coming to a church in your neighborhood).
Moses knew idolatry when he HEARD it: it is SINGING that I hear. When people sing in an arousal sense they fall into mortal sins. I can understand why you don't want NON-CHARISMATICS to be pleased by NOT being "turned into another man."
MOREOVER, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 1 Cor. 10:1
And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 1 Cor. 10:2
They participated in the Gift of the Spirit of Christ:
And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 1 Cor. 10:3
And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. 1 Cor. 10:4
But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness. 1 Cor. 10:5
Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted. 1 Cor. 10:6
All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not. 1 Cor. 10:23?
I THINK NOT
Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play. 1 Cor. 10:7
"The triumphal hymn of Moses had unquestionably a religious character about it; but the employment of music in religious services, though idolatrous, is more distinctly marked in the festivities which attended the erection of the golden calf." (Smith's Bible Dictionary, Music, p. 589).
That needs no proving: performing musicians say WATCH JESUS but they know and all fools know that they are saying WATCH ME perform my idolatry of talent.
"We know that all of the Israelites brought Egyptian gods and practices with them and it is not far-fetched to think that Miriam, who had not yet been exposed to the Covenant, was part of the consciousness-altering rhythms and which was part of a priestly myth-play brought to destructive consummation at Mount Sinai as the golden calf was called back into action.
This "rising up to play" involved eating, drinking, nakedness and musical worship. The goddess, Hathor, is the best candidate for the Mother Goddess of the Mount Sinai idolatry. Here priestessess or prophetesses were highly trained with musical instruments, cultic songs and be able to join in the religious dance.
"Music and drugs were co-consiprators in religious ecstasy. They may have used some product of the sycamore fig which both intoxicated and induced an altered state of consciousness. The ergo of barley was well known. Anton Marks
All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not. 1 Cor. 10:23?
I THINK NOT
Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand. 1 Cor. 10:8
I THINK NOT
Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents. 1 Cor. 10:9
I THINK NOT
Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer. 1 Cor 10:10
I THINK THIS IS THE FACT
Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. 1 Cor. 10:11
Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall. 1 Cor 10:12
PAUL WARNED SPECIFICIALLY ABOUT MUSICAL IDOLATRY AT MOUNT SINAI AND WARED THAT IT WAS A SALVATION ISSUE FOR MOST OF A WHOLE NATION.
I COR 11 Paul warns against the women in UNCOVERED PROPHESYING which was music to induce a form of MADNESS such as chapter 14 where Paul RIDICULES their practices and OUTLAWS anything which does not EDIFY which means ot EDUCATE.
That was OUTSIDE of the assembly: for the assembly Paul wrote:
Now in this that I declare unto you I praise you not, that ye come together not for the better, but for the worse. 1 Cor 11:17
In the following directives I have no praise for you, for your meetings do more harm than good. 1 Cor 11:17NIV
All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not. 1 Cor. 10:23?
I THINK NOT
In Romans 14 Paul showed that eating meats or many other DIVERSE opinions DID NOT INVOLVES THEMSELVES WITH THE KINGDOM OF GOD. Therefore, they WERE NOT subjects of discourse or disputing in the EKKLESIA or SYNAGOGUE.
In Romans 15 without dipping his pen, Paul said that SELF PLEASING was EXCLUDED from the assembly. The assembly then CONSISTED ONLY of speaking that which is written with ONE MIND and ONE MOUTH to EDUCATE (what you do with disciples), comfort one another, glorify God and KEEP THE UNITY. To that the Lord's Supper was added.
EVERYTHING which sows discord are ADDED to SOW discord .
I understand the point you are making about Christian maturity and agree that I can't exercise all things that are lawful to me because doing such could cause a weaker brother to stumble... God forbid that any of us become guilty of such a thing...
Yet, Mark, in all honesty I am totally blown away by the thought process of some people who are participating in this discussion... In my opinion, it speaks volumes regarding the maturity level of the church in general... We are waging an inward battle, all in the name of defending the faith, over items such as the position of a person's hands and arms while singing songs of praise to God... And, please forgive me, but I am still waiting on someone to supply the verses that tell us what position we are to be in while singing songs of praise to God... Standing erect with hands stiff at our side??? Knees slightly bent, one hand on the song book (or both)??? This battle honestly makes no sense to me... But, then again, I fear that most people call this sinful because they only do it in "liberal" churches... And, if a "liberal" church does something, we can't do it in the conservative churches -- even if the action is only different -- not sinful...
I do have one question regarding your comments about not exercising all things that are lawful to me... Does that apply to those who feel they are defending the faith regarding this issue... They are certainly free to do so, but, if their doing so causes one to stumble and fall should they cease their defensive attack??? Should they simply realize that there is nothing wrong with lifing hands and just continue worshipping God without stressing out because someone lifted a hand in their service??? Food for thought...
Thanks for your comments, I look forward to your response...
I was being facetious when I mentioned something about watching other folks while they’re doing their rah-rah-rah singy-clappy praise music … and also about women’s underarms. Those who do not raise their armpits cannot help but observe and notice those that do. Sorry, but that’s human nature. Man is naturally either a performer or a spectator.
I believe the real issue here has more to do with “charismatic imitation.” Non-charismatic churches, including conservative Baptist Churches, etc., historically speaking, have/had not been into this “lifting hands” phenomenon until the Charismatic Movement became a force in the religious world. Just because of their impact on TV and in public gatherings doing their rituals very sincerely, it doesn’t mean that whatever they’re doing is correct or to be emulated.
I don’t recall any emphasis being made of [light or heavy] arm-lifting being sinful. Nor, should you be focused on finding scriptures to support it or negate it. There are many things in the assembly we do not do without relying on the scripture to say “not to.”
Actually, praising or worshiping is an individual matter. One Christian cannot praise or worship for another Christian. This is what David Rhoades is trying to say about “your worship” and “my worship.” If one has so much urge to lift hands to praise God, why not do it in the closet or in the privacy of his home, instead of making it a public spectacle? So, one issue here is what one causes another to wonder or notice.
So, Chris, tell us if you yourself have urges to lift your hands and, if so, why don’t you do it? That question can be broken down into several mini-questions and question-combinations. If you cover as much as you can about your own experiences regarding this matter, that would help a lot in discussing the issue you yourself brought up. We really aren’t interested in what you have already said about not criticizing others … about not questioning their sincerity, etc., because that’s common knowledge.
I know that one of Donnie's main points is that even non-heaven/hell issues that cause division are wrong to pursue. Let me give you an example. We attended a small church in the Northwest that had recently moved from being rather "anti" to a more moderate stance on many issues. They had begun having fellowship meals in the building but there was no formal kitchen.
It would have been wrong for me to push for a stove and oven when there were still those that had just become comfortable with serving a meal inside the building.
If you choose to believe that those who do not agree with you on a position are "less mature" on that issue then the burden is on you to help them along, not pull them.
There is a secular book (the book name escapes me) that deals with a concept called, Theory of Constraints.
In this book, the author recounts a Boy Scout hike that he led. As they walked along, the line of kids got more and more serarated, and the walk took longer and longer. The strong kids in the front would press along at a good pace, but the kids in the back would slow down.
Finally, he realized that one kid, "Herbie," was slowing everyone down the most. Herbie had a pack full of everything but the kitchen sink. So, the author moved herbie to the front, shared the burden of the weight of the pack with other hikers and they made great time.
That's how I view the maturity issue. It benifits no one when we "more mature" (I say very tounge-in-cheek) charge forward and leave the "less mature" behind. We need to move the less mature to the front, help them with thier burdens, and go at their pace. In the end, the journey is much easier and we all reach the goal, heaven.
Yes, it can be frustrating, but think if Jesus did not give up on the apostles because of their lack of maturity and understanding, then you should not give up on "Brother Jones" because he struggles with things that you don't.
Gentlemen, again, I thank you for your recent additions to this discussion... I have enjoyed our exchanges and hope none of my comments during this discussion have offended anyone... I have not participated in a forum of this nature in some time and have found the mental stimulation quite refreshing... Now, back to the discussion at hand...
I offer the following in response to Mark's and Donnie's latest contributions.
First, Donnie, I knew you were being facetious, but, I felt your comment revealed something key to this discussion... In all honesty, you reveal it once again when you make the comment "Man is naturally either a performer or a spectator." And, I agree with that statement 100%... When we assemble as the church to offer worship to our God, as individuals we are either performers (one offering worship to God, who is the audience so to speak) or spectators (one busy watching others or not participating in worship)... It appears to me, my opinion, that your two biggest problems to raising arms/hands is that it [1] is different than what you are accustomed to seeing in worship, and [2] you feel it is rooted in the charismatic movement... Am I correct in this assessment???
Second, Donnie, in reference comments made in the third and fourth paragraphs of your latest addition to this discussion, you make statments that concern me... You seem to indicate that you realize it isn't sinful, but yet you want to push it toward a closet or someone's home... My question is, what are you afraid of??? Is it the thought of what others would think of your congregation??? Be honest and tell me what frightens you about it... I ask because I seek to understand...
Third, you wanted to know if I had urges to lift my arms/hands... And, if I did, why is it that I don't do it... To answer your questions, no, I have never had the urge to lift my arms/hands... However, I can assure you that if the urge ever does hit me, I will do so whether it be at my home worship service or yours... And, it wouldn't be intended to cause a fuss... If it did, then we could address it...
Why did I ask the question??? Because one discussion thread on this website was talking about the liberal takeover of the Bammel church of Christ... In that initial post the lady mentioned several items describing this takeover... NOW, please understand me... I don't know the Bammel congregation, for all I know they could be the most liberal group of people there is... However, most, if not all, of the items listed by that lady to show that the church had gone liberal (one of which was raising hands), I struggled to say that the items themselves were sinful... Afterall, shouldn't that be the test??? If it is sinful, then it is wrong... If it is different, it could be wrong but may not necessarily be wrong... IF something is different but not sinful (raising hands for example) shouldn't we learn to overcome this issue rather than drawing lines??? That is my point... Which leads to the next comment...
Fourth, Mark, I understand the concept of helping the weaker and appreciate the reminder... But, one question, how long do we allow the weaker to set the pace or make the rules??? Is a person, or congregation, to be bound by someone's lack of maturity???
I hope to answer or at least give some thought to your question, "Is a person, or congregation, to be bound by someone's lack of maturity???"
OBSERVATIONS ABOUT THINGS AROUND US:
In manufacturing, whether or not you acknowledge a bottleneck, the bottleneck still drives the pace of the process. Ignoring the bottleneck and making changes to the process elsewhere can cause further slow down.
If you have ever driven through down town Las Angeles, you notice that it doesn't matter how many lanes the freeway has, if there are not changes made to the intersection of highways, the traffic will still back up.
In nature, if a stream is dammed up, it does not matter what changes you make upstream or downstream of the dam, the dam still sets the flow for the stream (for the most part).
When it comes to my body, if one arm is weaker than the other, no matter how I try, I can not lift that heavy object.
Now, when you address the bottleneck and make it the priority, your process goes smoother whether that is manufacturing, traffic, nature, or the church.
CHRISTIAN LOVE
O.K. enough of the illustrations. When it comes to Christian maturity, I do think it is the job of the more mature to acknowledge the weaker. Would you drive someone away from the Lord because they have a lesser understanding of some area?
I would argue that it is a lack of maturity that leads someone to NEED to raise their hands in praise. I would also add that it is a lack of maturity on the other hand to say that raising hands is EVIL. Instead, if both sides, thinking that they are both mature, took on the attitude of putting others before self, then the anti-hand raisers would not gripe about those that raise their hands (understanding the perceived need for the hand raiser to grown in maturity) and the hand-raisers would be less inclined to raise hands, knowing that it is a troublesome matter for those anti-hand raisers.
Is that not the love that Paul writes about in I Cor 13;
1 If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing.
4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. 11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. 12 Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known. 13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.
The Greatest Is LOVE...that is the AGAPE love.
So, to put this in context of this discussion, if you have the greatest spiritual maturity in the world but don't have love, then it is worthless.
Love is patient... it does not get frustrated with other Christians who aren't as mature.
Love is kind... it does not use hateful words to attack those that have a different point of view.
It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud...
It is not rude... it doesn't turn it's intellectually superior, spiritually mature nose in the air.
It is not self-seeking... it puts the needs of others above personal needs. Hmm...
I could go on and on with this...
It goes back to the final point of this passage, "these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love." It is almost as if Paul is saying that not only the highest in order is love, but also the most effective is love.
THE POINT OF ALL THIS
Wow, I feel like a evangelist, yammering on forever only to make one little point...
I am not saying that you should allow the "less mature" to run things. Remember, we are the body with our various functions. If you, one arm, just sit there and say, "how long can I wait for the other arm to get strong enough?" and do nothing to help the other arm, then we will never be able to achieve all that we can achieve as a body. Instead, one arm should help the other arm grow stronger by challenging it with heavier weights.
If we follow the example of love and the example of bearing one another's burdens, then we elevate the less mature and help them grow with us rather than discarding them or making them try to keep up with us. If we place them as more important than us, then we will both grow in spiritual maturity.
I only need to make one comment and ask one question about your latest addition to our discussion.
My comment is "AMEN"!!!
My question (perhaps the result of my stubborn nature) pertains to your comment -- "I would argue that it is a lack of maturity that leads someone to NEED to raise their hands in praise." I am curious as to why you would say that... Remember, I don't raise my hands; therefore I am not trying to defend my actions... BUT, aren't we simply talking about the position of a person's arms/hands??? I honestly don't understand the what all the fuss is about... I can remember the first time I encountered someone raising hands during worship... I remember the uneasy feeling it caused in my stomach... Afterall, I had never seen that before... It made think, search the scriptures and deal with everything I had ever heard regarding worship... And, in the end, the position of a person's hands while singing songs of praise and worship to God isn't addressed in scripture... I guess I am too simple minded -- but I just don't see the issue people have with raising hands...
I have read with angst the articles preceeding mine. Good grief! Have we nothing better to do that argue over the postion of one's arms during worship?
Paul says, "I want men to lift holy hands in prayer..." Why isn't that the end of the discussion? If the Bible is God's word, and I believe it is, and if Paul was inspired, and I believe he was, then he is directing men to lift holy hands. Seems to me we disobey the command of scripture if we fail to do so...
One comment alluded to the fact that it was the immature Christian that feels the need to lift hands. Well, isn't Paul more concerned with the weaker, immature Christian than he is the "mature" Christian's preferences? "I will never eat meat again rather than offend a weaker brother." If this is true, then the "mature" Christians should be lifting holy hands in prayer so as not to offend the "weaker" ones. Hmmm. I wonder if any of you who are so "anti-hand lifting" ever thought of that?
I agree that arguing about the POSITION of the arms is rather silly. But who are the people arguing about the POSITION of the arms?
One of a number of questions remains, though—i.e., where it says “men lifting up holy hands. What about women lifting hands? Or, one might add—what qualifies hands to be holy? Or, what about when singing and not praying?
Now, Bobby, if you read Romans 14 you will discover that people have many DIVERSITIES of opinions. Paul pointed directly to the functions of the human body--eating and drinking--as NOT related to the Kingdom of god. Jesus said the kingdom of God is WITHIN your own human spirit or mind. Therefore, what goes INTO the mind and OUT of the Mind or Spirit are the arena of the kingdom where we worship in the PLACE of the human spirit. This is the only Place God intends to seek our worship and that is why baptism is a REQUEST for Him to give us A holy spirit or A good conscience so that the WORD which is SPIRIT will stick in the mind.
The major SECTARIANS Paul had to confront in Rome were Orphics who were the only vegetarians or bean eaters who were ADDICTED to singing and twanging instruments in order to bring on the MADNESS which they peddled as the "gods" or "demons" indwelling. Their WORSHIP had been highly regulated in Rome before the time of Christ and they were limited to small assemblies and NEVER IN THE DARKNESS. They thought that they could REVEL in the night and not get hurt. The MUSIC--as they tried by PIPING hoping that Jesus woudl SING and DANCE the Dionysus perverted "bowing to Baal" was intended to HIDE the horrors of the person being INITIATED.
"Having descended to the Underworld, Orpheus accompanied his words with the music of the lyre, and it is told that not only the spirits wept but that also the ERINYES were wet with tears. He also entranced Persephone by his songs, and persuaded her to help him in his desire to bring back to life his dead wife. And so even Hades himself was persuaded to let her go.
Pythagoras [similar to Orphics] was trained in Egypt, where he received instructions in the universal mysteries. Math, geometry, and astronomy are important, but an indepth study of music, harmonics, and intervals, as they relate to states of consciousness, is an indispensable component
The Dionysics were the WINE DRINKERS and MEAT EATERS.
Paul said that ANY personal diversity or religious practice including diet were NOT subject to doubtful disputations. That means that because of the WEAKNESS of many people, God provided a PLACE as school of the BIBLE where the PRIVATE LIVES of people is NOT subject to regulation by a CLERGY system. It also means WE WILL NOT DEBATE private diversities becaus SCHOOL OF THE BIBLE does not GO THERE except as the READ text brings it up.
Then, without dipping his pen, Paul launched into defining a SYNAGOGUE (he uses synagogue in words like gathering and assembly). He OUTLAWED personal pleasuring which is means "creation of mental excitement." You remember that Jesus died to give us REST from the Burden Laders who "created spiritual anxiety through religious rituals." Hand clapping CREATES that and even FEAR from the startle reflex. You will notice that when babies are startled they often giggle. However, it is NOT a good idea to mentally aggitate your children.
Paul connects that SPIRITUAL EXCITEMENT to the REPROACHES Jesus was prophesied to undergo. This was musical mocking and MAKING NAKED and exposing Jesus was part of the "musical TRIUMPH OVER" or Alarm of Psalm 41. The evidence of contemporaneous writers was that this meant SODOMIZING Jesus.
Then, Paul defined the Christian Synagogue like the Jewish Synagogue or the "church in the wilderness" which HAD NO PRAISE SERVICE. Do you need a LAW to prevent the infantile clapping and music when Jesus agrees to MEET with us as TEACHER?
Then, Paul define the ASSEMBLY as EXAMPLED by Jesus as to use ONE MIND and ONE MOUTH to speak THAT WHICH IS WRITTEN or SCRIPTURE. The result would be edificaton or EDUCATION, Glorifying God who wrote the PSALMS by the Spirit of Christ, Comfort one another and KEEP THE UNITY. Paul went on to say that YOU ARE COMPETENT TO TEACH ONE ANOTHER. That was a DOOR to shut out anyone who wanted to INVADE and traffic some song or philosophical sermone.
Neither Romans 15 nor the other "singing" passages authorize AROUSAL SINGING which MARKED the Israelites as MUSICAL IDOLATERS even through the ears of Moses. The word SPEAK and ODE have the same meaning as PSALMOS meaning "in the form of Hebrew cantillation." That means SPEAK as in the word SPEAK and not SANG as be an idolater and a mocker of Jesus and HIS Words which He identified as SPIRIT and LIFE.
The literature DEFINES these words for SPEAK specificially for the Ekklesia (or synagogue) as "In a whisper or conversational tone." The word speak as related to the LOGOS or WORD means to "speak as OPPOSED to MUSIC."
Lifting holy hands meant lifting up the PALMS (not arms) about waist high with palms UP as if, in the words of David, "I lift up my hands to thy Word."
The shift from THE WORD to MUSIC is the MARK of people deliberately trying to HIDE the WORD of God from you. They are consious or UNconsious agents of Lucifer (Zoe) called in Eden "the singing and harp playing prostitute." PLAY music and PLAY sexually have about the same meaning.
People CLAP in order to make SYMPHONY or the only "music" word by making you "MOVE YOUR BODIES TOGETHER." That was practiced as the male symposia where the flute-girl meant prostitute and to facilitate "getting drunk on wine" or the MALE musicians who were always DRUNK or PERVERTS. Musicians and singers "were happy to be the harem of the Gods" and ALL of recorded history means that the MUSICATORS with their VOODOO clapping are SUBJECTING you to a KNOWING RELATIONSHIP with the UNholy spirits. Maybe WACKO but there is NO KNOWN EXCEPTION (beginning with the serpent meaning Musical Enchanter) where Paul said that Eve (ZOE) was wholly sexually seduced. Zoe is called the BEAST and the FEMALE INSTRUCTING PRINCIPLE.
You have to deny that there ARE (the many) of UNHOLY SPIRITS occupying the UNLAWFUL PULPITS in order to deny that the POPULAR CLUSTERS are collections of Satan or Lucifer Worship. Many were trained by ZOE which means LUCIFER.
In the end time, Apollo or Abaddon or Apollyon and his LOCUSTS (musical performers) is the NAME OF the Devil and the "musical performers" (re 18) for the Holy Whore (re 17) are defined as SORCERERS who have ALREADY removed the CANDLES or the "seven Spirits of God" meaning ALL knowledge. That is the PATTERNISM of Amos 5f, Isaiah 5 and other examples where the WINE, WOMEN AND MUSIC dried up the WATER OF THE WORD and your people die of THIRST and are taken into captivity. Even in the garden, the Musical Enchanter caused the loss of access to the TREE of Life which was Christ as the WORD.
I dare assert--and you will find no exception in the Bible or any published contemporaneous literature--that when the MUSICIANS stand in the Holy Places (of Church architecture or Pulpits) claiming to LEAD you into the presence of God they ARE claiming to be GOD. That means that you could not FABRICATE a more perfect example of SATAN having taken captive your "church" and YOU LOVE TO HAVE IT SO.
Does that mean because I sing with understanding of the words and sing from my heart and tears come to my eyes .. and sometimes run down my cheeks....that I am 'arousal singing'?
Does that mean when I sing songs of joy and praise and I smile that I am 'arousal singing'?
Does it mean when I hear certain scriptures read and they touch my heart, that I am sinning because it "arouses" emotions within me?
I am publicly showing how I feel...is that a sin?
If all of the above is true, then I am doomed.
Or does "arousal singing" mean that a person who gets emotional while singing can become sexually aroused and holding up ones hands contributes to that? If that is the case, how big a problem do you think this might be within the congregations where folks do raise their hands ?
I haven't had that experience and those with whom I have discussed it haven't either. But then, we are not "hand raisers".
Speak EXCLUDES music: Singing is Sorcery: John Told me So!
September 5 2006, 10:30 PM
"Arousal singing" is any form which has been CALCUATED to create "mental excitement" in you. They SELL that as being worship or the Spirit inside. But, doesn't it stand to reason if you were Satan you would fill ALMOST ALL pulpits and have your singers BLEEDING OFF worship to them? Jesus didn't do it, outlawed it, Paul outlawed it and the church DID NOT practice it until they had fallen into deep apostasy and some bishops were not even Christians. They inform you in the Catholic Encyclopedia that they "added music because it was COMMON to all pagan cults." And that is why YOU do it.
In the "church in the wilderness" or the Qahal or synagogue God OUTLAWED any form of instrumental or singing excitement. Why? It was because the assembly was never called except for instruction. The command was to REST then read and rehearse the Word of God. The sabbath does not mean Saturday but REST: that word outlaws "speaking your own words" or even "sending out ministers."
The synagogue Jesus endorsed had no "praise service" because it was a school of the Bible. That is what Paul commanded and the church practiced. Singing was not an act of "worship" and was added generally about the year 400.
The GOSPEL tellls us to come REST and "learn of me." The burden He lifted is defined as "spiritual anxiety created by religious rituals." The word self-pleasure in Romans 15 outlaws anything which creates "mental excitement." The word is ARESKO and points specificially to ALL that we do in church as pagan.
ALL forms of singing which can CREATE a special feeling in you beyond SPEAKING the Word of God defines charming, or enchantment and John called the singers, musicians and speakers who use "techne" or craftsmanship SORCERERS. The Bible writers knew the VOCABULARY of the Greek world and ALL of the singing in religious rituals was seen as witchcraft. Why would you PAY someone to make you cry when Jesus identified that generation as children who PIPED trying to make you DANCE for excitement or mourn. Someone is tampering with your mind and it may be "purging" but it is not Christian.
All of the Bible writers used the terms which would communicate with even simple people. Because no performance preacher or singer has a clue to that vocabulary and culture, they PICK up the pagan practices and violate the direct command to SPEAK in a calm way "that which is written." If reading the Bible makes you weep that is okay; if someone MANIPULATES your mind to cause you to weep then ALL of the Bible and literature calls them SORCERERS. I am just now doing a study of the Athenian Law and those who did that were put into prison: if they did it for MONEY they would never get out of jail until they "paid the last" mite they stole from a widow. That is where "purgatory" came from.
The word REST which the Law gave and which Jesus RESTORED is a highly-dedicated word which means STOP whatever it is you are doing to other people.
Someone will tell you that this is wacko: let them find the word REST ever used in the Bible or the literature meaning to DO WORSHIP SERVICE (service means hard bondage). No one will ever find the word to mean PLAY INSTRUMENTS or SING because the village simple simon knew that music forces your body to DO WORK.
Pauô, includes to: bring to an end, stop or silence by death, take one's rest, cease, have done, of one singing or speaking.
Pauô, includes to: stop the polemos or battle, fight, war: stop levying war against another, anaireisthai or airô egeirein, kathistanai, epagein to begin a war; p. poieisthai to make war, -- opp. to p. anapauein, kataluesthai to put an end to it, make peace, all in attic
Pauô, includes to: STOP the: melôid-ia , hê, singing, chanting,
II. chant, choral song, melôidias poiêtês, lullaby, generally, music
Pauô, includes to: Stop the pain of: aoidê [aeidô]
1. song, a singing, whether the art of song, Hom.; or the act of singing, song, Il.
2. the thing sung, a song, Hom., etc.
3. the subject of song, Od.
Why is that important? Because aoiding is related to the MUSES of Revelation 18 and John called the SORCERERS.
Pauô, includes to: Stop worshipping the MUSES
kata-pauô put an end to, stop. The MUSES are the LOCUSTS in John's secret message and they work for Apollyon or the Devil and they perform sorcery.
3. depose from power, k. tina tês archês, tês basilêïês, Hdt.4.1, 6.64; tous turannous Id.5.38 , cf. 2.144, 7.105; Mousas depose them from their honours, cease to worship them, E. HF685 (lyr.):--Pass., tês basilêïês katepausthê Hdt. 1.130 , cf. 6.71.
You should be aware that Lucifer or Zoe goes back to the garden of Eden, shows up in the Babylonian tablets and is the singing and harp playing prostitute. The GOAL of Zoe was to force the little "jehovah" worship HER. When people PERFORM in speaking or singing or whatever you DO give heed to the PERFORMERS and that is Paul's ONLY word for worship. It has been called "the idolatry of talent."
Pauô, includes to: Stop the charismatic music which is with clanging cymbals:
Klangê [klazô] any sharp sound, such as the twang of a bow, the grunting of swine, the hissing of serpents, the barking of dogs, of song, Cassandra-prophecies
Pauô, includes to: Stop the: Panos orgai panic fears (i. e. terrors sent by Pan), Eur.:--but, orgê tinos anger against a person or at a thing, hierôn orgas wrath at or because of the rites.
Pauô, includes to: Stop the Dancing they tried to force on Jesus
Orcheomai
represent by dancing or pantomime
metaph., leap, bound, shook, trembled,
orcheô , make to dance
made my heart leap
Incarno: make flesh, incarnate god
Pauô, includes to: Stop the Sorcery. The sOPHISts are the OPHIS serpents which, as in Genesis is a Musical Enchanter.
Pharmakos (on the accent v. Hdn.Gr.1.150), ho, hê, poisoner, sorcerer, magician, LXXEx.7.11 (masc.), Ma.3.5 (fem.), Apoc.21.8, 22.15.
Pharmakon is used with:
Epôidê , Ion. and poet. epa^oidê , hê, song sung to or over: hence, enchantment, spell
I. singing to or over: as Subst. an enchanter, acting as a charm for or against
2. pass. sung or said after, morphês epôidon called after this form, Eur.
II. in metre, epôidos, ho, a verse or passage returning at intervals, a chorus, burden, refrain
I hope you didn't miss the fact that in Hebrew and Greek SINGING is called a BURDEN especially when it REPEATS words or phrases: Their yeas are not yeas and their nays are not nays.
The Pauo Jesus died to give us means: To Take Thy Rest:
Klisia a place for lying down, henceI. a hut, cot, cabin, such as besiegers lived in during long sieges, Il.:--that they were not tents, but wooden huts, appears from Il. 24.448 sq.; and when an army broke up, it burnt them on the spot, Od. 8.501
Ii. a couch or easy chair, Od., Pind.
2. a bed, nuptial bed, Eur.
Iii. a company of people sitting at meals, NTest.
Iv. a reclining or lying, Plut.
Pauo stop! have done! be quiet!
Do you believe that you are being used as a MONEY COW? Of course you don't! Jesus asks: "Shall He find faith when He returns?" Yes, but VERY LITTLE and they will all be OUTSIDE the Polis or groups where Paul said we would have to GO to find Him sitting quietly ready to teach ONLY in one or two rare groups where they are still faithful.
The word SPEAK in the "ekklesia" specificially EXCLUDES the word MUSIC.
You guys humor me. In fact this entire site humors me. I think Satan loves this site. As people are lost and trapped by Satan all around us. We (the church) are arguing about hand raising, clapping, singing during the Lord's Supper, etc. I hope Satan does not keep you guys so busy on this board that you don't have time to share God's love with the lost!
This web site is not part of or approved by any Church!
...........................THE BOOK
What Happened At the Madison Church of Christ?
There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.
This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison
Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource
references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least
you will recognize the signs early on.
Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't
know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.
Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was
one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.
It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of
it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word
of Jesus Christ.
At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority
of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly
realm.
They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and
to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.
The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan.
Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books,
seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change
so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....
At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to
be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched
through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the
"Community Church Movement"
Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready,
or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the
plans very nature, it had to be secret.
The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was
never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last
15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.
The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the
elders went along unwittingly.
This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell
something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill
in some of the timeline.
To even start to understand whats happening here, you must read the
background materials in the first of the book.
This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be
printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our
web site; http://www.concernedmembers.com/madison
Here is the list of players;
5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten
commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)
