It appears as though this website has very little action occuring on it. I pray that this means we have decided to concentrate of loving each other and spreading the good news of Jesus Christ. I wonder how many people we could have reached in the time that we spent bashing and dividing churches over mostly trivial and preferance issues?

Yes, Brian, it is good news. It is great news.

If "it appears as though this website has very little action occurring on it," it may be an indication that the efforts of change agents operating in the brotherhood have diminished or weakened. The owners of this website would like to attribute the great news to its capacity to inform and warn other congregations of the many dangers and divisive issues facing the church in this 21st century.

Please know that this is a discussion forum that deals with various doctrinal issues and other religious matters. It has never been the intention to bash and divide churches. Instead, we're here to identify issues that divide the church unnecessarily and needlessly. The scheme of change agents to restructure the church, e.g., is a major issue. The church that Christ established does not need restructuring nor God's directives for His church need changing.

As part of our discussion, would you like to initiate a thread titled, "Loving Each Other and Spreading the Good News of Jesus Christ" or something similar?

Donnie,

From everything I have read on this site, it is the intention to point out anything that the site creators feel is a threat to they way things used to be.

If you feel that you need to follow the unwritten rule of not having instrumental music in services, then you need to reread all the books of the law in the old tedtament and start following them too. If you constrain yourself or anyone else to anything other than grace for salvation, you need to be ready for judgement.

Reread Galatians and think about your attitudes towards other Christians. Are you more worried about doctrine not being followed or about the salvation of someone you could have reached if your heart had not been hardened?

Donnie
You are a find ensample of God's grace. How you continue to try and teach these brainless want'a-bes has got to be God's grace.
The fall of 2010 is just around the corner and they still are coming out of the woodwork to jab it you, and you still try to help them, that is God's grace.

To God be the Glory
Joe McKnight

Hey Joe,
Can you update all the brainless fools that don't agree with everything that Donnie has to espouse, just what we have to look forward to in the fall of 2010?

I did not call anybody a Fool, yet the fact remains that some here are Brainless.

Fall 2010: There is good mathmatical evidence that the
"Two Witnesses" will come on the scene. We will see. If we miss them we will know for sure the Spring of 2013. When their bodies are to lay in the street for three 1/2 days while the Brainless party over their death. Get it hahaha, brainless? hahaha


To God be the Glory
Joe

I don't think you are being very Christ-like by calling people names (brainless, wannabe christians, etc.). I know you have very strong opinions, but no one will take them seriously if you are acting like a child. I am very hurt by all of the things I am reading on this site. There is so much hate here. I think if Jesus were reading this he would be very disappointed. I probably shouldn't be here either. I would be ashamed if people who were not christians got on here and saw this. Would they want to become a christian after reading these hateful things? Why don't you all shut down your computers and go do a service for someone? Why don't you take off your self righteous tone and say some loving things to someone who needs it? Please stop fighting on here.

Hello brothers,

When did God give His people a law concerning not using music during His worship? As we know, the apostle Paul said that love fulfills the Law. We are not under law but under grace, right?

I personally see nothing wrong with musical instruments being played before God in worship. King David sang and played on the harp in his worship to God, and as you know, his worship was accepted.

What about Psalms 150?:

"Praise ye Jehovah. Praise God in his sanctuary: Praise him in the firmament of his power. Praise him for his mighty acts: Praise him according to his excellent greatness.

Praise him with trumpet sound: Praise him with psaltery and harp. Praise him with timbrel and dance: "

Anchor007> Notice the "praise Him with timbrel and DANCE" above?

"Praise him with stringed instruments and pipe. Praise him with loud cymbals: Praise him with high sounding cymbals. Let everything that hath breath praise Jehovah. Praise ye Jehovah."


"And David and all the house of Israel played before Jehovah with all manner of instruments made of fir-wood, and with harps, and with psalteries, and with timbrels, and with castanets, and with cymbals." 2 Samuel 6:5

"And David and all Israel played before God with all their might, even with songs, and with harps, and with psalteries, and with timbrels, and with cymbals, and with trumpets." 1 Chronicles 13:8

Anchor007 > Notice the "played before God WITH ALL THEIR MIGHT"?

"And David spake to the chief of the Levites to appoint their brethren the singers, with instruments of music, psalteries and harps and cymbals, sounding aloud and lifting up the voice with joy." 1 Chronicles 15:16

"Thus all Israel brought up the ark of the covenant of Jehovah with shouting, and with sound of the cornet, and with trumpets, and with cymbals, sounding aloud with psalteries and harps." 1 Chronicles 15:28

"Moreover David and the captains of the host set apart for the service certain of the sons of Asaph, and of Heman, and of Jeduthun, who should prophesy with harps, with psalteries, and with cymbals: and the number of them that did the work according to their service was:" 1 Chronicles 25:1

"also the Levites who were the singers, all of them, even Asaph, Heman, Jeduthun, and their sons and their brethren, arrayed in fine linen, with cymbals and psalteries and harps, stood at the east end of the altar, and with them a hundred and twenty priests sounding with trumpets;)" 2 Chronicles 5:12

"And David and all the house of Israel played before Jehovah with all manner of instruments made of fir-wood, and with harps, and with psalteries, and with timbrels, and with castanets, and with cymbals." 2 Samuel 6:5


Now I have attended the Church of Christ a number of times and see that some have an aversion to music with their worship, but I don't see where it is supported in Scripture. Nor do I see that playing instruments during worship in an enthusiastic manner is wrong either. (See the above Scripture at 1 Chron. 13:8

I also see that those who don't use music are judgmental of those who do, and who want to use music. Why should such a small thing as using musical instruments cause a division between the body of Christ? It shouldn't, should it? Is it straining the knat?

Please don't take offense when I post the following Scripture. I am not referring you brothers as "hypocrites" but the reason I am showing the following Scripture is as a reminder to not create commandments of men nor to forget about the weightier matters of JUSTICE, *MERCY*, and FAITH. Not to mention LOVE.

If someone desires to play a musical instruments in worship, what's wrong with it? What harm is there in that?

God's throne is King Davids and Christ's, since David was a representative of Christ,(and his son) and God loved and accepted his worship with harp music and other instruments. God's earlier people played all sorts of musical instruments before God in worship .....AND GOD ALSO ACCEPTED it, then why take away the joy of music in worship before God?

Matthew 23:23
"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye tithe mint and anise and cummin, and have left undone the weightier matters of the law, justice, and mercy, and faith: but these ye ought to have done, and not to have left the other undone."

" And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and the voice which I heard was as the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
and they sing as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four living creatures and the elders: and no man could learn the song save the hundred and forty and four thousand, even they that had been purchased out of the earth." Revelation14:2-3

We are no longer under Law. God has not put Christians under any law other than what Christ and the apostles gave, and it looks to me that not using musical instruments during worship services to God is not one of them.

Anchor

Anchor,

Help me out here. What was the name of David's congregation? Was it King Hezekiah Christian Church? Wait! Christ had not established His church yet. Let's see. Maybe, the following passage will help explain what occurred in David's congregation:

II Chronicles 29:

[20] Then Hezekiah the king rose early, and gathered the rulers of the city, and went up to the house of the LORD.
[21] And they brought seven bullocks, and seven rams, and seven lambs, and seven he goats, for a sin offering for the kingdom, and for the sanctuary, and for Judah. And he commanded the priests the sons of Aaron to offer them on the altar of the LORD.
[22] So they killed the bullocks, and the priests received the blood, and sprinkled it on the altar: likewise, when they had killed the rams, they sprinkled the blood upon the altar: they killed also the lambs, and they sprinkled the blood upon the altar.
[23] And they brought forth the he goats for the sin offering before the king and the congregation; and they laid their hands upon them:
[24] And the priests killed them, and they made reconciliation with their blood upon the altar, to make an atonement for all Israel: for the king commanded that the burnt offering and the sin offering should be made for all Israel.
[25] And he set the Levites in the house of the LORD with cymbals, with psalteries, and with harps, according to the commandment of David, and of Gad the king's seer, and Nathan the prophet: for so was the commandment of the LORD by his prophets.
[26] And the Levites stood with the instruments of David, and the priests with the trumpets.
[27] And Hezekiah commanded to offer the burnt offering upon the altar. And when the burnt offering began, the song of the LORD began also with the trumpets, and with the instruments ordained by David king of Israel.
[28] And all the congregation worshipped, and the singers sang, and the trumpeters sounded: and all this continued until the burnt offering was finished.
[29] And when they had made an end of offering, the king and all that were present with him bowed themselves, and worshipped.
[30] Moreover Hezekiah the king and the princes commanded the Levites to sing praise unto the LORD with the words of David, and of Asaph the seer. And they sang praises with gladness, and they bowed their heads and worshipped.
[31] Then Hezekiah answered and said, Now ye have consecrated yourselves unto the LORD, come near and bring sacrifices and thank offerings into the house of the LORD. And the congregation brought in sacrifices and thank offerings; and as many as were of a free heart burnt offerings.
[32] And the number of the burnt offerings, which the congregation brought, was threescore and ten bullocks, an hundred rams, and two hundred lambs: all these were for a burnt offering to the LORD.
[33] And the consecrated things were six hundred oxen and three thousand sheep.
[34] But the priests were too few, so that they could not flay all the burnt offerings: wherefore their brethren the Levites did help them, till the work was ended, and until the other priests had sanctified themselves: for the Levites were more upright in heart to sanctify themselves than the priests.
[35] And also the burnt offerings were in abundance,with the fat of the peace offerings, and the drink offerings for every burnt offering. So the service of the house of the LORD was set in order.
[36] And Hezekiah rejoiced, and all the people, that God had prepared the people: for the thing was done suddenly.

Wouldn't it make sense -- to go all the way and do it all instead of doing one and rejecting everything else?

Hmmm! What about the priests [as in sons of Aaron]; the seven bullocks, and seven rams, and seven lambs, and seven he goats for a sin offering; the sprinkling of the blood on the altar; threescore and ten bullocks, an hundred rams, and two hundred lambs: all these were for a burnt offering to the LORD; the consecrated things were six hundred oxen and three thousand sheep; the fat of the peace offerings; the drink offerings for every burnt offering?

"And he set the Levites in the house of the LORD with cymbals, with psalteries, and with harps, according to the commandment of David began also with the trumpets, and with the instruments ordained by David king of Israel."

Anchor, do you use cymbals, psalteries, harps, trumpets in your assembly?

Again, what was David's church's name?

Anchor, it seems that you have collected the most important "proof texts" used by the false teachers.
I hate to be nasty: mom used to say it was congenital. However, nasty is about the only thing I can pass when I hear all of these events gleaned from a Lexicon without having EVER read the story line.

If I wanted to be really nasty when people post those lists I just have to say that they are totally Biblically illiterate.

How do you suppose one can listen to false sermons and silly songs long enough to grow up enough to type on a keyboard and be so absolutely deprived of Bible 101aaa, card class, slow ones of the slow group.

I clearly understand: you have never met a preacher who either knows or cares.

My BIG summery is listed here in a review of Lynn Anderson who flunked out of the slow group.

http://www.piney.com/Lynn.Review.html

I also just did a summary of the BASICS for those who believe that GOD COMMANDED INSTRUMENTAL MUSIC for the church by what DAVID COMMANDED for a plague-stopping animal slaughter.

http://www.piney.com/2.Chronicles.29Summary.html

Since Donnie and Joe know so much more regarding the doctrine of Christ than anyone else, I was just wondering if they could tell exactly what verses that Jesus spoke in regards to not having instrumental music.

Please be specific. I want to be able to open a KJV, that this site promotes as the only reliable translation, and read where Jesus says, "Do not use instrumental music in your worship service." I would also like to read where he says, "You are to have a song, a prayer, three more songs, communion, another song, the sermon, and and invitation song."

This site is just so knowledgable, I know you can find it.

Until then.....

You will remember that Jesus spoke to the false Jews in parables by which truth had been hidden from the foundation of the world. The easiest way to hide the truth in plain sight is to "translate" the Bible "using different words for a pleasing variety" even says the KJV people. This makes it easy to further pervert or corrupt the word meaning "selling learning at retail" by defining words and context to make it POWERFUL in trying to manipulate people's minds: this is called witchcraft or sorcery by John speaking of speakers, singers and instrument players who refuse to "sing that which is written" with one mind and one mouth and to "teach that which has been taught." It is a plot by God who needs no wimpy burgers.

John refused to baptize the dominant clergy class and called them a generation or RACE of vipers. During the curse of the sacrificial system the "instruments" of the warrior classes bearing Canaanite guild names were sounded (not music) during the burning of the GOATS which were sacrificed to prevent sacrificing TO THE GOATS defined in Greek as the CAPELLA from which we get the sad tragedy songs by the a capellas.

Peter told the people to SAVE YOURSELVES from this CROOKED RACE. Crooked is opposite to the orthodox: MYTHS always written by poets and musicians who could never write truth.

Skolios A. curved, bent (opposite to orthos, euthus) muthos
III. skolion, to, intestine, splanchana kai nephron kai skolion

Muthos used with tragoidia, mimesis, poetes etc. Latin fabula II. In partic. (freq. and class.), a fictitious narrative, a tale, story; 1. Most freq., a dramatic poem, drama, play; tragôidia, mimęsis, poiętęs, ; muthoisin skoliois Hes.Op.194
2. fiction (opposite logos, historic truth), Pi.O.1.29 (pl.), N.7.23 (pl.), Pl.Phd.61b, Prt.320c, 324d, etc.

Don't miss the point that the VIPER GENERATION from Cain (meaning a musical note) murdered Seth:

Matt 23:31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
Matt 23:32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
Matt 23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
Matt 23:34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you
........prophets, and wise men, and scribes:
........and some of them ye shall kill and crucify;
........and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues,
........and persecute them from city to city:
Matt 23:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth,
........from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias,
........whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

Because Jesus warned about parables from the foundation of the world, don't miss the point that the Bible is the history of the Hebrew people and that they existed at the time of Cain: cain is said to be OF that wicked one and Eve was wholly seduced in a sexual sense enabled by music. More later.

Rev. 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

they claim they are Jews #2453 Ioudas - Judas; in Hebrew 3063 - Yehudah - a descendant of Judah. The paid their way into the Herodian ruling class. The Saducean priesthood during the first century were not of Aaron but consisted of four families: Boethus, Hanan, Kimchit, and Phiabi. They intermarried with the Herodians, the Royal Rulers of the State of Israel, who were, themselves Edomites (Idumeans) from the Petra region (or Edom) and descendants of Esau (or Seir, which means "shaggy, he-goat, devil"), thus the "synagogue of Satan" leaders claimed to be Jews but were Edomites appointed by the Herodian rulers under Rome; Herod Antipas, for instance, and Pontius Pilate held the same governmental position for Rome, the reason for much rivalry between them); since Esau was "red and hairy" his nickname was Edom, and he lived in Seir where Ham's descendants settled.

As such they "wore the hat of Hermes" from which the musical discorders get the new hermeneutic. You might want to see how this was music and sex as the abomination of desolation" in the Jerusalem temple: some were still active and tried to seduce Jesus shown when He called the MEN of that generation like CHILDREN which identified the "youth ministers" or chorus leaders used and abused: He consigned the pipers, singers and dancers to the marketplace where all pagan and perverted worship took place.

http://www.piney.com/2Macc.html

So we might circle back to the beginning in Genesis where the meaning of SERPENT is "a musical enchanter(ess)." The king/queen of Tyre used music to steal property and the "souls of men" and is called the "singing and harp playing prostitute." Now, only a legalist would look for a LAW OF SILENCE (invented by the musical group) which says "thou shalt not play the musical prostitute." Stinkty or slithering animals are symbols of the enemies of the Words of God.

The serpent is related to brass and the flute which is lumped with pollute and prostitute as the meaning of when "men began to CALL upon the name of the Lord."

Gen. 4:25 And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth:
........For God, said she, hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel, whom Cain slew.
Gen. 4:26 And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos:
........then began men to call upon the name of the LORD.

582. enowsh, en-oshe´; from 605; properly, a mortal (and thus differing from the more dignified 120); hence, a man in general (singly or collectively):--another, x (blood-)thirsty, certain, chap(-man); divers, fellow, x in the flower of their age, husband, (certain, mortal) man, people, person, servant, some (x of them), + stranger, those, + their trade. It is often unexpressed in the English versions, especially when used in apposition with another word . Compare 376.

605. Anash, aw-nash´; a primitive root; to be frail, feeble, or (figuratively) melancholy:--desperate(-ly wicked), incurable, sick, woeful.

It was in this "generation" that false worship began. We know that Jubal "handled" musical instruments meaning "without authority.." When men FALL from grace it is always caused or MARKED by the use of music. What better supernatural sign of false prophets? The meaning of "began to call upon the name of the Lord" was how the Israelites--given The Book of The covenant of grace, ROSE up to play in musical idolatry. This was PROFANING the sabbath which was REST FROM the pagan seventh day worship rituals marked by music to ENCHANT or TRANQUALIZE the common fodder. This word is h2490 identical to David's "praise" word which means to MAKE SELF VILE which is the root word for LUCIFER the singing and harp playing prostitute in the garden of Eden.
"

This word is used of "Lucifer being cast as profane out of Heaven" and the equivalent word when Jesus CAST OUT the musical minstrels LIKE DUNG.

This word is used interchangeably as a "melody" word and normally marked women or male prostitute who prowled around all pagan-like temples of which that in Jerusalem was identified when God "turned them over to worship the starry host."

5059. nagan, naw-gan´; a primitive root; properly, to thrum, i.e. beat a tune with the fingers; expec. to play on a stringed instrument; hence (generally), to make music:--player on instruments, sing to the stringed instruments, melody, ministrel, play(-er, -ing).

Which points to the TOUCH word used by Eve when she was seduced or enchanted by the "serpent" as the name of the Assyrian Enchanter called "the tallest tree in Eden" of which she was seduced but Adam "ate" from the midst willingly.

5060. naga, naw-gah´; a primitive root; properly, to touch, i.e. lay the hand upon (for any purpose; euphem., to lie with a woman); by implication, to reach (figuratively, to arrive, acquire); violently, to strike (punish, defeat, destroy, etc.):--beat, (x be able to) bring (down), cast, come (nigh), draw near (nigh), get up, happen, join, near, plague, reach (up), smite, strike, touch.

Adam Clark:
Verse 26. Then began men to call upon the name of the Lord.] The marginal reading is, Then began men to call themselves by the name of the Lord; which words are supposed to signify that in the time of Enos the true followers of God began to distinguish themselves, and to be distinguished by others, by the appellation of sons of God; those of the other branch of Adam's family, among whom the Divine worship was not observed, being distinguished by the name, children of men. It must not be dissembled that many eminent men have contended that ljwh huchal, which we translate began, should be rendered began profanely, or then profanation began, and from this time they date the origin of idolatry. Most of the Jewish doctors were of this opinion, and Maimonides has discussed it at some length in his Treatise on Idolatry; as this piece is curious, and gives the most probable account of the origin and progress of idolatry, I shall insert it here.

You will remember the false conclusions: Because God created musical Instruments (Bible says Satan did) it is right and proper for us to use ANYTHING that God created in our worship to him. The problem is that you worship the CREATURE and not the CREATOR. Now, see how the earliest recorded commentary uses the same imagination even when "the imagination of the human hear is only evil continually."

"In the days of Enos the sons of Adam erred with great error, and the counsel of the wise men of that age became brutish, and Enos himself was (one) of them that erred; and their error was this:
........they said, Forasmuch as God hath created these stars and spheres
........to govern the world, and set them on high, and imparted honour unto them,
........and they are ministers that minister before him;
........it is meet that men should laud, and glorify, and give them honour.
For this is the will of God, that we magnify and honour whomsoever he magnifieth and honouret; even as a king would have them honoured that stand before him, and this is the honour of the king himself. When this thing was come up into their hearts they began to build temples unto the stars, and to offer sacrifice unto them, and to laud and glorify them with words, and to worship before them, that they might in their evil opinion obtain favour of the Creator; and this was the root of idolatry, &c.

And in process of time there stood up false prophets among the sons of Adam, which said that God had commanded and said unto them, Worship such a star, or all the stars, and do sacrifice unto them thus and thus; and build a temple for it, and make an image of it, that all the people, women, and children may worship it.
........And the false prophet showed them the image
........which he had feigned out of his own heart,
........and said it was the image of such a star,
........which was made known unto him by prophecy.
And they began after this manner to make images in temples, and under trees, and on tops of mountains and hills, and assembled together and worshipped them, &c. And this thing was spread through all the world, to serve images with services different one from another, and to sacrifice unto and worship them.
........So, in process of time, the glorious and fearful name (of God)
........was forgotten out of the mouth of all living,
........and out of their knowledge, and they acknowledged him not.
And there was found no people on the earth that knew aught, save images of wood and stone, and temples of stone, which they had been trained up from their childhood to worship and serve, and to swear by their names. And the wise men that were among them, as the priests and such like, thought there was no God save the stars and spheres, for whose sake and in whose likeness they had made these images; but as for the Rock everlasting,
there was no man that acknowledged him or knew him save a few persons in the world, as Enoch, Methuselah, Noah, Sham, and Heber. And in this way did the world walk and converse till that pillar of the world, Abraham our father, was born." Maim. in Mishn, and Ainsworth in loco.

Moses was writing an inverted version of the Babylon legends used as worship where God had sentenced Israel because of musical idolatry. In the end time worship (now) the same enchanters are used by the Babylon mother of harlot: they are the same lusted after "fruits" spoken of by Amos and as speakers, singers and instrument players they are called SORCERERS. The sound of the millstone was always the way to find the GRINDERS who spread their legs and the "piping sounds" made by the grinding advertised their second occupation.

I will follow up quickly.

For the rare DISCIPLE (Christians are students not ceremonial legalists) I have posted some quick links to see how the word CRAFTSMAN or TECHNE is used most often to speak of vile pagan rituals where MUSIC and other performing arts were used to CONTROL the "audience" and take them captive to the pastor person.

http://www.piney.com/Revelation.18.Craftsmen.html

Ray's only response.Revalation 18:

22 And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee;

........IF you read Revelation 17 you will see that these are "ministers" of the Babylon Mother of Harlots. Why should we need to prove that SHE uses all of the arts and crafts to perform SORCERY.

23And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.

Ken would have us believe music is condemned by John in Revalation because of these verses. If this is true, then John has also condemned craftsmen, grinding on grain, lighting a candle, marriage, and being a merchant.

My Grandfather had a 22 foot grist mill: he was miller, blacksmith, store operator, truck farmer and auto mechanic: I never thought that anyone would associate SORCERY with regular occupations. ALL musical terms and names of instruments are on the other hand AIMED at enchantment or SORCERY.

Bible students who learned about the serpent, the musical enchanter/ess or the singing and harp playing prostitute in the garden of Eden will have no trouble finding many PARALLELS to Revelation in the prophets inspired by the Spirit of Christ and ALL radically repudiating the Civil-Military-Clergy thread imposed as a curse. They would understand that we don't want musical craftsmen, GRINDERS whose millstone is defined a flute because it identified the prostitutes, lighting candles are the seven spirits of Christ which have been REMOVED as the candlestick, marrying where "giving in marriage" is a perverted musical term.

We have noted that Revelation 17 identifies the Babylon mother of harlots which is is the end-time taking captive of the church by the CRAFTSMEN or techne.

Revelation 18 warns that the lusted after fruits will be removed when the harlot church comes to an end and peace returnes in Revelation 19. The fruits are connected to the musical practices in Amos and they are the catamites or male prostitutes. I know of no history of pagan religious music which does not include women such as flute-players always prostitutes and perverted males.

Revelation 18 spells out the ARTS AND CRAFTS which were always used (needs no proving) to take the attention away from Christ and His Word. John calls them sorcerers WHO HAD deceived the whole world. Of course the dogs (fruits) and sorcerers and liars are those for whom hell was prepared.

The Craftsmen word (techne) includes any learned or professional skill but there is no reason that a carpenter or a soldier would likely try to attack the church with the performing arts. That is why most of the uses had to do with pagan and perverted operatives in the pagan religions. When used by the civil authorities the rituals were still civil and intended to force the people to "goose step" and "goose step" to the NOMOS (legalism) of the state which were the opposite of NATURAL LAWS which private persons might be tempted to follow.

Techn-ę , hę, ( [tektôn] ) art, skill, cunning of hand, of a soothsayer, A.Ag.249 (pl., lyr.), Eu.17, S.OT389, etc.; technai heterôn heterai Pi.N.1.25 ; ôpase t. Pasan Id.O.7.50 .

........Pasan Id.O.7.50 . Pindar, Olympian 7. [10] for those men who were victors [nike] at Olympia and at Pytho. That man is prosperous, who is encompassed by good reports. Grace, which causes life to flourish, looks with favor now on one man, now on another,
........ with both the sweet-singing lyre and the full-voiced notes of flutes.
[13] And now, with the music of flute and lyre alike I have come to land with Diagoras, singing the sea-child of Aphrodite [ZOE>and bride of Helios, Rhodes Truly, a cloud of forgetfulness sometimes descends unexpectedly, and draws the straight path of action away from the mind. For they climbed the hill without bringing the seed of burning flame; and they established the sacred precinct on the acropolis with fireless sacrifices. Zeus brought to them a yellow cloud [50] and rained on them abundant gold.
........And the gray-eyed goddess herself bestowed on them [51] every art,
........so that they surpassed all mortal men as the best workers with their hands;

Techn-ę 2. craft, cunning, in bad sense, dolię t. Od.4.455, Hes.Th.160: pl., arts, wiles, Od.8.327.332, Hes.Th.496,929; doliais technaisi chręsamenos Pi.N.4.58 ; technais tinos by his arts (or simply by his agency), Id.O.9.52, P.3.11; technęn kakęn echei he has a bad trick, Hes.Th.770, cf. Pi.I.4(3).35(53), S Ph.88, etc.

Techn-ę3. way, manner, or means whereby a thing is gained, without any definite sense of art or craft, mędemięi t. in no wise, apostęsomai . . oute t. oute męchanęi oudemiai IG12.39.22 ; pasęi t. kai męchanęi X.An.4.5.16 ; męte t. męte męchanęi mędemiai Lys.13.95 .

........Męchan-ę engine of war, 3. theatrical machine by which gods, etc., were made to appear in the air,

........ Organum , Of musical instruments, a pipe, used With: machina , ae, f. = mechane, I. a machine, i. e. any artificial contrivance for performing work, II.Trop., a device, plan, contrivance; esp. a trick, artifice, stratagem

........ClasPlaCratylus.html

........Cratylus: Soc. And mine, too, Hermogenes. But do not be too much of a precisian, or "you will unnerve me of my strength." When you have allowed me to add mechane (contrivance) to techne (art) I shall be at the top of my bent, for I conceive mechane to be a sign of great accomplishment- anein; for mekos the meaning of greatness, and these two, mekos and anein, make up the word mechane.

Click for more Cratylus. Who? Ask your preacher. He will know or resign.

http://www.piney.com/ClasPlaCratylus.html

You assuredly learned nothing at church today and Simple Simon knows that church is ekklesia or a SCHOOL OF THE BIBLE ONLY: singing as an ACT was not imposed until 373 and that divided the east from the west churches. Why is it that you want to promote music and SILENCE the Word?

These are very good answers to a question I have not asked. Where does JESUS specifically say not to use instruments.

It seem to me that Ken is a little too hung up on prostitutes and not the idea of Salvation through Grace.

If you remember Exodus 32 from Card Class

Exod 32:1 AND when the people saw that Moses delayed to come down out of the mount,
........the people gathered themselves together unto Aaron,
........and said unto him, Up, make us gods, which shall go before us;
........for as for this Moses, the man that brought us up out of the land of Egypt,
........we wot not what is become of him.

Exod 32:2 And Aaron said unto them, Break off the golden earrings, which are in the ears of your wives, of your sons, and of your daughters, and bring them unto me.

Exod 32:3 And all the people brake off the golden earrings which were in their ears, and brought them unto Aaron.
Exod 32:4 And he received them at their hand, and fashioned it with a graving tool,
........after he had made it a molten calf: and they said,
........These be thy gods, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.
Exod 32:5 And when Aaron saw it, he built an altar before it; and Aaron made proclamation,
........and said, To morrow is a feast to the Lord.

The LORD they worshiped woud be the Egyptian trinity under Apis the golden calf.

Exod 32:6 And they rose up early on the morrow, and offered burnt offerings,
........and brought peace offerings; and the people sat down to eat and to drink,
........and rose up to play.

This was singing, clapping, playing instruments when then and always arouse sexual thoughts.

"For nonliterate peoples, music often serves purposes other than entertainment or aesthetic enjoyment. Certain wind instruments are closely associated with the supernatural, and their sounds connote powerful magic. Australian Aborigines, for instance, identify the sound of a bull-roarer with the voices of supernatural beings; for the Plains Indians, the same sound signifies an awesome natural phenomenon, such as thunder. Wind instruments are often among a group's most important ritual objects, and in some cultures they are specially venerated. The Kamairua Indians of the Amazon rain forest keep their giant flutes (three to four feet long), wherein spirits are believed to dwell, in a special shrine where they are worshiped. The flutes and drums of New Guinea are similarly housed and worshiped.

"Wind instruments in primitive cultures also serve nonreligious functions. In New Guinea, bamboo trumpets were once played

........to frighten an enemy during battle and
........ to alert a village that the victorious warriors were coming home with the corpses of the foes.

"Conch-shell trumpets are used for signaling in the Pacific coastal regions of Columbia and in the Ecuadoran highlands.

........Trumpets also may be associated with the office of king or chief,
........as in West Africa, where their use is strictly controlled by tribal law. "wind instrument" Encyclopćdia Britannica Online.

The word PLAY in Hebrew means "musical idolatry" just as in Egypt. The Latin is ludere which--for the readers--is outlawed in 2 Peter.

Ludo A.To sport, play with any thing, to practise as a pastime, amuse one's self with any thing: Esp., to play on an instrument of music, to make or compose music or song: B.To sport, dally, wanton (cf. "amorous play.

It was an invitation for God to REMOVE GRACE: He did not say, "thou shalt not PLAY like dogs or male prostitutes" so go ahead.

Exod 32:7 And the Lord said unto Moses, Go, get thee down; for thy people, which thou broughtest out of the land of Egypt, have corrupted themselves:

Because of that terminal sin God "turned them over to worship the starry host" (Acts 7 etal). The Book of The Covenant of Grace was destroyed and they were given the Law of Moses to legislate for the lawless.

The Same Spirit of Christ ordained the Qahal, synagogue or church in the wilderness. The command was to hold a holy convocation INCLUDING Resting, Reading and Discussing the Word of God.



It was EXCLUSIVE of vocal or instrumental rejoicing. Therefore, the DIRECT COMMAND for the church in the wilderness was identical to the synagogue Jesus endorsed, the ekklesia and the assemblies Paul defined by using the "synagogue" words. There NEVER WAS any "praise service in the synagogue" by DIRECT COMMAND, by historic uniformity and by COMMON DECENCY. Simple Simon does NOT make MUSIC when we are listening to Jesus the Christ (Lord and Spirit) as we TEACH that which has been taught (a direct command) and if you assume that the rhythmic reading was "singing" then we "Sing that which is written" using one MIND and one MOUTH (Rev 15). Self pleasure is OUTLAWED and this defines ALL of the hypocritic performing arts.

HERE IS THE ONLY INSTRUMENTS THE SPIRIT OF CHRIST COMMANDED:

Num. 10:1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
Num. 10:2 Make thee two trumpets of silver; of a whole piece shalt thou make them:
........that thou mayest use them
........for the calling of the assembly,
........and for the journeying of the camps.

There is NO use of the instruments which were not for SENDING SIGNALS.

Num. 10:3 And when they shall blow with them,
........all the assembly shall assemble themselves to thee
........at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.

ASSEMBLY HERE IS: 3259. ya{ad, yaw-ad´; a primitive root; to fix upon (by agreement or appointment); by implication, to meet (at a stated time), to summon (to trial), to direct (in a certain quarter or position),

Num. 10:4 And if they blow but with one trumpet,
........then the princes, which are heads of the thousands of Israel,
........shall gather themselves unto thee.

Woops! better not let little horn blower do a praise service when you are doing SERIOUS THINGS!

Num. 10:5 When ye blow an alarm,
........then the camps that lie on the east parts shall go forward.
Num. 10:6 When ye blow an alarm the second time,
........then the camps that lie on the south side shall take their journey:
........they shall blow an alarm for their journeys.

"Despite the differences between the Mosaic and the Egyptian cults, it can hardly be denied that Egyptian influence on Jewish musical practices were quite significant. They would stand to reason because of the high quality of egyptian cultic music.

The tambourine or timbrel, a hoop of bells over which a white skin was stretched, came from Egypt. Miriam used this instrument to accompany the singing and dancing on the shores of the Red Sea (Ex. 15).

The trumpet blown for decampment, at the gathering of the people and on different cultic occasions, especially during sacrifices (2 Chron. 30:21; 35:15; Num 10:2), was the signaling instrument of the Egyptian army.

The sistrum, according to 2 Sam 6:5, was used by the Israelites and bore the name mena'aneim. It was the same as the Egyptian kemkem which was employed in the cult of Isis.

The solemnity celebrated on the occasion of the transferring of the Ark to Sion, as well as the dances of the daughters of Israel at the annual feast of the Lord of Shiloh (Judg 21:21), were similar in thier musical embellishments to Egyptian customs in the liturgy and at parades. As Herodotus reports,

women sang the praises of Osiris while likenesses of the gods were born about and, during the festival of Diana at Bubastis,
choirs of men and women sang and danced to the beating of drums and the playing of flutes." (Quasten, Johannes, Music and Worship in Pagan and Christian Antiquity, p. 65)

It is SIMILAR because THAT was the musical idolatry and THAT is what God ABANDONED them to.
[6] When you blow an alarm the second time, the camps that lie on the south side shall take their journey: they shall blow an alarm for their journeys.

HOWEVER, THIS IS OUTLAWED FOR FOR THE SYNAGOGUE OR CHURCH IN THE WILDERNESS.

[7] But when the assembly [congregation] is to be gathered together,
you shall blow,
but you shall not sound an alarm.

This is the TRIUMPH OVER which Judas would perform when trying to turn Jesus coward: well documented in Psalm 41.

THE SYNAGOGUE is:

6951. kaw-hawl´; from 6950; assemblage (usually concretely):assembly, company, congregation, multitude

IN THE LATIN THE "SCHOOL OF THE BIBLE" IS CALLED THE ACADAMY

[7] quando autem congregandus est populus simplex tubarum clangor erit et non concise ululabunt

Con-grgo Congrego

Philosophia Academica.. The philosophy of the Acadamy, A. For The philosophy of the Academy: instaret academia, quae quidquid dixisses,

Academia congregation. where plato taught, scholars are called Academici,
and his doctrine. distinction from Stoica, Cynica The DOGS, Wolves and BEASTS in Revelation
........The school of Christ and worship was in the PLACE of the Spirit says Paul
........because OUTSIDE were the DOGS or male prostitutes or the CYNICS
........identified by the MARK of their old style praise singing: sounded like the falsetto of CCM.

That is why Jesus COMMANDED that worship is in the PLACE of the human spirit devoted to the TRUTH of God: it is NOT in all of your pleasure centers.

Knikos , ę, on, ( [kuôn] ) dog-like. kai thęriôdes [BEASTS in Revelation] . currish, churlish, Vulgate 1 Sa 25.3 (?). Adv. -kôs, spômenoi Heliod. ap. Orib.48.38 tit.; in dog language, opp. boďkôs, etc., Porph.Abst.3.3.

Vulgate 1 Samuel 15: [3] Now the name of the man was Nabal; and the name of his wife Abigail; and the woman was of good understanding, and of a beautiful face: but the man was churlish and evil in his doings; and he was of the house of Caleb. [4]

II. Kunikos, ho, Cynic, as the followers of the philosopher Antisthenes were called, from the gymnasium ( [Kunosarges] ) where he taught, D.L.6.13; or from their resemblance to dogs in several respects, Diog.Cyn. ap. eund.6.60, Metrod.16, Polystr.p.20 W., Elias in Cat.111.2, etc.; Kratęti tôi k. Men.117 ; k. hairesis, askęsis, philosophia, Ph.1.352, J.AJ6.13.6, Jul.Or.6.187a; parręsia k. Plu.2.69c ; to k. tęs parręsias Id.Brut. 34 . Adv. Comp. -ôteron Id.2.601e.

Paresia outspoken, frankness, freedom of speech, 4. liberality, lavishnes. this would MARK the rhetorician or one who speaks with great style and polish and makes himself the center of attraction. Jesus called them hypocrites and history identifies them as dogs. Peter warned that he left a MEMORY as a way to MARKK the false teacher.

Again:
[7] But when the assembly [congregation] is to be gathered together,
you shall blow,
but you shall not sound an alarm.

When you BLOW has the same meaning as a CHURCH BELL which tells you when to assemble. The BLOW is
Simplex I. In gen., simple, plain, uncompounded, unmixed, II. In partic., simple in a moral sense, without dissimulation, open, frank, straightforward, direct, guileless, artless, honest, sincere,

Without claging the tuba.

Tuba Apart from military purposes, it was used on various occasions, as at religious festivals, games, funerals,
........b. Sonorous, elevated epic poetry,
........c. A lofty style of speaking,
........II. Trop.: tuba belli civilis, i. e. exciter, author, instigato

Clango
I.perf., re, 3, v. n. [kindred with crocio, glocio; cf. clamo and klazô] , to clang, to sound, resound(rare; only in ante-class. and post-Aug. poets): crepitu clangente, Att. ap. Non. p. 463, 16: horrida clangunt signa tubae, Stat. Th. 4, 342 ; cf.: luctificum clangente tub, Val. Fl. 3, 349 : clangunt aquilae, Auct. Carm. Phil. 28.

This OUTLAWS the PRAISE singing which David used to MAKE WAR or a camp follower

Ululo Ullo I. Neutr., to howl, yell, shriek, utter a mournful cry. B.Transf., of places, to ring, resound, re-echo with howling, Feminise ululant, resonae ripa of the GALLIS or castrates.

feminise II.Transf., with an accessory notion of contempt, womanish, effeminate, unmanly: David's playing was MAKING HIMSELF VILE.

magicus , a, um, adj., = magikos, of or belonging to magic B. To say urgently or continually (late Lat.): vernacula principi, Amm. 17, 11, 1 .

........A. superstitio , o-nis, f. [super-sto; orig a standing still over or by a thing; hence, amazement, wonder, dread, esp. of the divine or supernatural] . II. In post-Aug. prose sometimes for religio, religious awe, sanctity; a religious rite:

........B. vanitas , a-tis, f. [vanus] . B. Esp., falsity, falsehood, deception, untruth, untrustworthiness, fickleness, etc.

........C. resono to sound or ring again, to resound, re-echo

........D. Cantus I. Neutr., to utter melodious notes, to sing, sound, play. Transf., of the instruments by which, or (poet.) of the places in which, the sounds are produced, to sound, resound: canentes tibiae,

........E. magicae resonant ubi Memnone chordae,mysterious

YOU CANNOT ESCAPE CAPTIVITY WHICH HAS BEEN CULTIFIED FOR ALL OF YOUR LIFE IF YOU ARE NOT WILLING TO READ BEYOND PRAISE DITTIES.

ISRAEL FELL INTO MUSICAL IDOLATRY AND GRACE

GOD ABANDONED THE ELITE KING, PRIESTS, MUSICIANS AND NEHEMIAH ETAL CALLED THEM ROBBERS AND PARASITES.

THE LORD OR SPIRIT OF CHRIST ORDAINED THE CHURCH IN THE WILDERNESS

HE INCLUDED RESTING FROM RELIGION, READING AND DISCUSSING THE WORD.

HE OUTLAWED CALLING ASSEMBLY WITH AND ASSUREDLY PERFORMING ANY KIND OF PRAISE OR MUSIC BECAUSE IT PREVENTED SCHOOL AND WAS LEFT AS A MARK TO IDENTIFY WHEN THE DOG INVADED.

NO ONE IN HISTORY THOUGHT OF USING ANY KIND OF MUSIC IN THE CHURCH IN THE WILDERNESS.

THEREFORE YOU WOULD NEED A DIRECT COMMAND FROM CHRIST REPUDIATING WHAT THE SPIRIT OF CHRIST COMMANDED AND NEVER RESCINDED.

I will post this under Numbers 10 for the POSSIBLE one person out there who wants to know the PERSONA of the performance preachers and musicians USING them for their own PLEASURE while you PAY them.

Ken,

While your information is quite knowledgable, it still does not give a reference to Jesus saying not to use instruments. Unless you have a copy of a Bible where Exadous has been moved from the OT to the NT, your scripture does not contain the answer I am looking for.

Let's look at this.

1. You claim that all instrumental worship is of the devil.
2. David is referred to as a man after God's own heart.
3. David wrote psalms to God to be played by musicians.
4. If musical instruments are of the devil, and David wrote psalms to the Glory of God, and they were meant to be played by musical instruments, and David was a man after God's own heart, could it be possible that you are making a bigger deal about music than God does?

You can still not show me where Jesus says that Salvation is through Grace and not using musical instruments. If this position is that important, you should be able to quote book, chapter, and verse, not draw out 3 pages of rambling supposition from "scholars." I don't want to hear what they interpret, I want to know exactly what the red letters say. Or since you are such a scholarly man, maybe you can personally translate from the original Gospels exactly what Jesus said.

Grace and Peace brother. Grace and Peace.

Ray denies that the SPIRIT OF CHRIST commanded the Qahal, synagogue or church in the wilderness. The SPIRITUAL thread speaks only of Abraham, Moses and the PROPHETS. The kings were given in God's ANGER and taken away in His anger to carry out the captivity and death sentence imposed because of musical idolatry at Mount Sinai:

Acts 7:35 This Moses whom they refused, saying, Who made thee a ruler and a judge?
......the same did God send to be a ruler and a deliverer
......by the hand of the angel which appeared to him in the bush.
Acts 7:36 He brought them out, after that he had shewed wonders and signs in the land of Egypt,
......and in the Red sea, and in the wilderness forty years.
Acts 7:37 This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel,

......A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me;
......him shall ye hear.

Acts 7:38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness
......with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina,
......and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:
Acts 7:39 To whom our fathers would not obey, but thrust him from them, and in their hearts turned back again into Egypt,

The Spirit of Christ OUTLAWED "vocal and instrumental rejoicing" when the Qahal, synagotue or church in the wilderness assembled." How many times does it take?

Number 57 is NOT a Psalm and therefore not suitable for use as a TEACHING PSALM. It is a: There are only 50 true Psalms not restricted and NONE of them include instruments. #4387 is Miktam 57:

4387. miktam, mik-tawm´; from 3799; an engraving, i.e. (techn.) a poem:Michtam.
3799. katham, kaw-tham´; a primitive root; properly, to carve or engrave, i.e. (by implication) to inscribe indelibly:mark.

1Sam. 21:13 And he changed his behaviour before them,
......and feigned himself mad in their hands,
......and scrabbled on the doors of the gate,
......and let his spittle fall down upon his beard.

This scrabble has the same meaning.8427. tavah, taw-vaw´; a primitive root; to mark out, i.e. (primitive) scratch or (definite) imprint:scrabble, set (a mark)

In many of the ancient documents from Babylon and other nations, the gods were believed to be inside of musical instruments which were made into the form of a bull (harp). The sounds of the strings was sold to be the voice of the god inside of the idols which even had "speaking tubes" so the manipulator could "discover" the needs of the worshipper and have the idol speak the answer to them (This was before radio).

Awake, my soul! Awake, harp and lyre! I will awaken the dawn. Psalm 57:8

However, Habakkuk pronounced:

Woe unto him that saith to the wood, Awake; to the dumb stone, Arise, it shall teach Behold, it is laid over with gold and silver, and there is no breath at all in the midst of it. Habakkuk 2:19

But the Lord is in his holy temple: let all the earth keep silence before him. Habakkuk 2:20

DAVID'S AROUSERS: don't get upset: God turned Israel over to worship the starry host.

"In an inscription from Cyprus, in one from Rhodes and in several from around the district of Carthage, there are references to important personages who bear the title Mqm'lm which we can translate as AROUSERS of the god.'" (de Vaux, Roland, The Bible and the Ancient Near East, Doubleday, p. 247).

"We even have a mention at a later date of a similar custom in connection with the cult in Jerusalem, where certain Levites, called me'oreim, 'AROUSERS,' sang (every morning?) this verse from "Ps 44:23: "Awake, O Lord! Why do you sleep? Rouse yourself! Do not reject us forever." The Talmud tells us that John Hyrcanus suppressed the practice because it recalled too readily a pagan custom." (Roland de Vaux, p. 247).

Soothsayers: Anan (h6049) aw-nan'; a prim. root; to cover; used only as denom. from 6051, to cloud over; fig. to act covertly, i. e. practise magic: - * bring, enchanter, Meonemin, observer of times, soothsayer, sorcerer.

THE KING, KINGDOM, TEMPLE ETC WERE TURNED OVER TO WORSHIP THE STARRY HOST. THERE IS NOTHING IN THE RELIGIOUS PRCTICES OF THE ISRAELITE TEMPLE-STATE WHICH IS NOT EXACTLY LIKE THAT OF THE OTHER NATIONS SUCH AS BABLON. THAT IS WHAT THEY PRAYED FOR AND WHAT GOD GAVE THEM.

Under "Star Worship" the Jewish Encyclopedia states:

"Star Worship" is perhaps the oldest form of idolatry practiced by the ancients. The observation of the stars in the East very early led the people to regard the planets [wandering stars] and the fixed stars as gods. The religion of the ancient Egyptians is known to have consisted preeminently of Sun-worship. Moses sternly warned the Israelites against worshipping the Sun, Moon, stars, and all the hosts of heaven (Deuteronomy 4:19; 17:3). The Israelites fell into this kind of idolatry and as early as the time of Amos they had the images of Siccuth and Chium, 'the stars of their god' (Amos 5:26); the latter name is generally supposed to denote the planet Saturn. [666] That the Kingdom of Israel fell earlier than that of Judah is stated (II Kings 17:16) to have been due, among other causes, to its worshipping the host of heaven.

But the Kingdom of Judah in its later period seems to have outdone the Northern Kingdom [Israel] in star-worship." Of Manasseh it is related that he built altars to all the hosts of heaven in the two courts of the house of YHWY, and it seems it was the practice of even Kings before him to appoint priests who offered sacrifices to the Sun, the Moon, the planets, and all the hosts of heaven. Altars for star-worship were built on the roofs of the houses, and horses and chariots were dedicated to the worship of the Sun. (II Kings 21:5; 23:4-5, 11-12) Star-worship continued in Judah until the 18th year of Josiah's reign (621 B.C.) when the King took measures to abolish all kinds of idolatry. But although star-worship was then abolished as a public cult, it was practiced privately by individuals who worshipped the heavenly bodies, and poured out libations to them on the roofs of their houses (Zephaniah 1:5; Jeremiah 8:2; 19:13) Jeremiah, who prophesied in the sixth year of the captivity of Jehoiachin (591 B.C.) describes the worship of the Sun as practiced in the court of the Temple (Ezekiel 8:16) and that even after the destruction of the Temple the women insisted on continuing to worship the Queen of Heaven.
"The ancient Hebrews, being nomads like the Arabs, favored the Moon, while the Babylonians, who were an agricultural nation, preferred the Sun. But, as appears from Ezekiel 20:7-8 the Moon-worship of the Israelites, even while they were still in Egypt was combined with Sun-worship."

That means that ALL of those who have been led by the nose [in all the wrong places] by the NACC and their change agents have lied about every passage in the Bible and have been wittingly or HALF-wittingly tried to TAKE YOU CAPTIVE to the same MOTHER OF HARLOTS (Rev 17) who uses lusted after FRUITS as slick speakers, singers and instrument players whom John and all known evidence identifies as SORCERERS who HAD deceived the whole world. She/he/it began in the garden of Eden as the singing and harp playing prostitute. You had better FLEE BABYLON if it is not too late: the Bible, the Book of Enoch and common knowledges knows that once you have been forced to make the MUSIC IS WORSHIP CONNECTION you are hard wired and your PURPOSE DRIVEN life is to try to seduce everyone else to give you aid and comfort because you know your fate.

Jesus cast the musical minstrels OUT like dung and marked the MEN of that generation (race of vipers) as belonging to the marketplace with the pipers, singers and dancers where they sold radishes, sermons, young "chorus leaders" and whatever your heart lusted after. Jesus as the Alpha and Omega wrote Revelation 17-18 which probably shows that by the time you hear the MUSIC in the "holy places" your LAMPSTAND was removed by Jesus on His last visit: in the conclusion about the musical people in Amos God says "I will not pass this way again."

Ken,

I was going to write a witty reply that you undoubtedly would have again responded long windedly to. But instead, I will finish off with this.

Since you are a more learned man than I am, please answer this question as specifically as you can.

John the Baptist says in John 1:27

27 He it is, who coming after me is preferred before me, whose shoe's latchet I am not worthy to unloose.

If John the Baptist felt that he was not even worthy to loosen the shoes of Jesus, how is it you feel worthy enough to tell other sinners like your self (Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God)
that the way they choose to worship their Lord and Savior is wrong.

Jesus does not speciffically utter the words "Do not use musical instruments or you will burn in the fires of Hell."

Do you think that Jesus would be happier about the fact that the CofC kept music out of our worship assemblies and kept berating believers who do not think like we do, or about the fact that we are spreading his message and winning souls for him through any means necessary.

You do not support instrumental music as worship to the Lord, but you do support the use of the internet, which is one of Satan's many tools in the fight to steal souls away from God, to tell people that they are wrong.

Maybe you should remove the beam from your own eye before you tell me how to get the splinter out of mine.

There is very little action going on here these days, Bryan, because people are starting to wise up and see this website for what it is: a forum for backbiting, name-calling, and hatred.

The only responses you get are the same tired, worn-out mindless rambling tirades, littered with acid-tongued, mean-spirited sarcasm if you don't agree with them--the proverbial "dead horse" is beaten here on a daily basis--day after day after day after day. It doesn't stop, nor will it ever.

If I were a non-Christian and this website was my first and only exposure to the Christian faith, I would run like the wind and have nothing to do with it.

+++++++++++++++++++++

Spill:

Thanks for contributing to the "hatred."

Ah ... this is "Sunday School in Exile." What doctrinal or religious issue(s) would you like to discuss?

What would I like to discuss here? What an auspicious invitation! I have an idea... let's discuss the significance of Leviticus 19:18: "Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself," as well as the greatest command, "Thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thy heart, with all they soul, and with all thy might" (Deuteronomy 6:5). Jesus said, "Upon these commands hang all the Law and the Prophets."

I assume you're familiar with these passages?