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Kenneth Sublett
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Re: Excuse Me!

June 28 2003, 5:14 PM 

I believe that history shows that Jesus instituted the Lord's Supper in the midst of the Passover. However, the Passover had to do with slaying the Lamb. It seems that bread and wine--very intoxicating--was added in Babylon. This is important because if you assume that you know nothing you discover many of the seemingly FACTUAL acts of Jesus were acted parables and they all repudiated rituals added during the captivity.

The traditional record of the Jews is that they poured FOUR cups of intoxicating (Babylon influence) wine so that everyone was to repeat Esther's event of getting the enemy drunk. However, they POURED but no one drank the fifth, unfermented cup. This cup was called the Cup of Elijah because it was to anticipate John the Baptist as the herald of redemption. For that reason he drank no intoxicants.

----"One may pour a fifth cup and recite the Great Hallel over it, i.e., from "Praise God, for He is good,"until "By the waters of Babylon." They poured the unfermented wine, recited Psalm 137 (we hung up our harps) and then poured the wine back.

When Jesus initiated the Lord's Supper this fulfilled the long-held belief about the fifth cup. The word SOP used only at this time was a sign to Judas who was prophesied to TRIUMPH OVER Jesus. The Judas Bag was for carrying the mouthpieces of wind instruments. Therefore, the SOP related to MELODY which is related to grinding the enemy into a fine powder sent Judas out.

While Jesus is our Passover, Paul's discussion of it in Corinth includes examining ourselves. In the Passover the candles were lit and they searched their houses for any hint of leaven. The Lord's Supper is to show forth or preach the DEATH of Christ. Therefore, there are certainly similarities but one should never remember the Passover Lambs in Egypt but the Spiritual Lamb which has fulfilled the type. The CUP singular is the fifth cup and not the four cups which caused everyone--even children to get drunk.

I have reviewed an e-mail which suggests that the bread and wine Passover was not commanded, the Jews observed the Passover and therefore we have LIBERTY to add things like instrumental music. In the following link I have tried to show some of the evidence that the Jew's form of the Passover was not commanded, was picked up in Babylon and Jesus repudiated the 4 cups to get drunk during Passover and used the fifth cup to institute the Lord's Supper.

As a fulfilled type the Lord's Supper is a more of spiritual anti-type. It seems to me that by rejecting the Babylon-induced Passover Jesus returned to the original where He as the true Lamb of God shed His Blood for out sins. We are therefore to remember His DEATH and deny any rational to sing and clap while showing forth or preaching His Death.

--"And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground. Luke 22:44

--Agonia (g74) ag-o-nee'-ah; from 73; a struggle (prop. the state), i.e. (fig.) anguish: - agony.

When Jesus comes to the church it is a MARK when we make it look like the drunken Passover in Babylon where Esther refused to drink.

---Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise (hymn) unto thee. Heb 2:12

Declare in Greek is:

--Apagello (g518) ap-ang-el'-lo; from 575 and the base of 32; to announce: - bring word (again), declare, report, shew (again), tell.

----Aggelos (g32) ang'-el-os; from aggello, [prob. der. from 71; comp. 34] (to bring tidings); a messenger; esp. an "angel"; by impl. a pastor: - angel, messenger

Sing is not MUSIC.

----Apalgeo (g524) ap-alg-eh'-o; from 575 and algeo (to smart); to grieve out, i.e. become apathetic: - be past feeling

Because Paul spoke of GIVING HEED to the Word as the fundamental meaning of "worship," he also put the focus on observing the Lord's Supper. Teaching and Admonishing one another means that if we IDENTIFY WITH Jesus and appreciate His death we can answer "Yes" when He asks: "Could you not tarry with me for one hour?"

The Jews in Egypt were covered by the Blood and it is doubtful if they sang, clapped, whistled or moved around while the Death Angel was in the land.

As the observer of the Passover examined his/her house, the Lord's Supper demands that we examine ourselves which is the "house" or dwelling place of God in the spirit.

--1 Cor 11:28 But let a man examine HIMSELF, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.

-----1 Cor 11:29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh DAMNATION to himself, not discerning the Lords body.

Unworthily means IRREVERENTLY. Discerning means to "withdraw or separate thoroughly." What shall we do with those who want to MAKE MUSIC during this time? The claim is that a well performed Lord's Supper will make people want to LOOK LIKE US.

--Heb 12:28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with REVERENCE and godly fear:

----Heb 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.

I think that we should separate ourselves into our own "tabernacles" and not join in the musical games. People competent to become disciples simply do not do their musical games when a loved one is dying.

If we do not observe the communion with Christ's DEATH as our focus we should know that GRACE has not changed: God from being A CONSUMING FIRE.

Ken Sublett

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(no login)

Don't be so stupid

February 3 2003, 8:13 AM 

OK so if you even read your bible then you do know it doesn't say we can't and as you pointed out it does tell us what to do. So show me the part about having a full time paid minister, a youth minister, a songleader (that's just one person), or dare I even say it a building. So unless you are worshiping in a home church or renting out a facility, everyone takes a turn starting the singing, and there is no paid minister at your church and never has been spare us the hipocracy.

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Kenneth Sublett
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Directon of West End

January 3 2003, 3:16 PM 

Go back and read your comments and you will discover that whether standing or sitting the PRAISE TEAM is consuming an awful (awesome) amount of the GIVING HEED.

Remember that not in the entire Bible is the MUSIC word used of worship. The Qahal or assembly in Hebrew is translated as Ekklesia in the Greek version. The Qahal was the synagogue or "church in the wilderness."

God authorized TWO (2) Silver Trumpets to be used to signal tribal movements or to give battle movements. The word TRIUMPH or ALARM includes either blowing instruments and "making a joyful noise before the Lord." This was NOT worship but boasting to try to panic the enemy into cowardice.

God through Moses said that they could BLOW the trumpets when assembling the Qahal or synagogue which NEVER met except for instructing all of the tribes or their elder- leaders. This would be like a church bell.

Numbers 10:7 specificially says that they COULD NOT make these noises when the assembly was called.

The Israelite people NEVER worshiped with singing and music. Only the king, clergy and officials participated in the temple animal sacrifices. The loud "music" or sound during the BURNING PHASE was typical of the slaughter of Lord Jesus Christ in the New Testament.

NO singer and NO musician was ever allowed into the Holy Place as a carnal type of the church. The SINGERS roaming around the temple were PROSTITUTES and the MUSICIANS were SODOMITES.

The ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION in the Intertestament period was the worship of Zeus and or Dionysus with music. This is why the Jewish clergy PIPED trying to force Jesus to sing and dance the perverted temple ritual. A homosexual atmosphere dominated.

The word MUSIC is the Greek SUMPHONIA and it is used ONLY of secular occasions which included drinking and dancing. A similar word MUSICIANS is used of the Babylon Harlot worship in Revelation 18. "Music" is derived from the 9 MUSES used by Apollo (or Abaddon or Apollyon) to seduce people into his commercial Seeker- Center at Delphi. He/she is Satan or Lucifer or ZOE MARKED by singing, music and dancing.

The Bible NEVER even commands "singing" which was a seculular often perverted activity or "external melody" which speaks of grinding the enemy into panic much like the TRIUMPH OVER outlawed by God. Paul commanded that the PREACHING or TEACHING be a "one another" activity, the RESOURCE to be "that which is written, the spirit, or the Word of Christ." The singing and melody would be meditating just as David did with his psalms.

When the MUSICAL role takes the place of the TEACHING emphasis you will have noticed that they VIOLATE the direct command of Paul that the RESOURCE is ALL the inspired metrical (singable) Biblical text.

This means that you are GIVING HEED to the LEGALISTIC WORKS effort of the TEAM and you CANNOT at the same time GIVE HEED to Christ through His Word. This means that NO WORSHIP can take place. And indeed since the HIRED HANDS violate the entire Bible and church History you are PAYING for the "doctors of the Law" which Jesus said "take away the key to knowledge." Jesus fired them and so should you. Since you have not elders APT to do the preaching-teaching role Peter gave YOU the authority to TAKE THE OVERSIGHT and begin teaching the FAILED institution or help lead them to safety.

Music has always been (like the wineskin creed) the MARK of male or female prostitutes EVEN in the Bible. Don't do it! The only authority of the elders is TEACHING authority and your OBEDIENCE is to follow his instructions and "watch the outcome of his life." Therefore, whether standing or sitting the male and female "youngers" ARE usurping the authority of the elders. Sometimes the elders are not ignorant: they may just be cowards under subjection to the rulership of "women and children" or women and the "effeminate."

Ken Sublett

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(no login)

Re: Directon of West End

January 7 2003, 11:35 AM 

Well, I guess the church has been wrong for 1900 - 2000 years, and God has finally raised up a new prophet to enlighten us poor idiots who have been singing. Thank you so much for being able to interpret the scripture like no other person ever has. Come to think of it, even Jesus might have been in violation of the lack of a command regarding singing (as you obviously take Eph. 5:19 and Col. 3:16 to mean "meditating like David did") when he and the apostles sung a hymn and went out to the Mount of Olives (Matthew 26:30).

Kenneth, you give conservative members of the church of Christ a bad name. To those liberals on here let me say that this is one conservative person who flatly doesn't agree with all the change that's taking place and the division that has come over it. As I have said in other posts, I worship in a very conservative church. We have one songleader and preacher (of course Sublett apparently thinks that's not scriptural either). We have three elders and 5 deacons (no women deacons). We will never have a praise team or any other type of innovation. But, I don't know anyone in our congregation that would agree with this. When the Bible says sing, it means sing, unaccompanied, period, end of sentence. Sing does not mean meditate. And to think that singers are equal to prostitutes and homosexuals! How completely rediculous. Everyone, including Mr. Sublett, needs to study their Bibles. And you don't have to know Greek or Hebrew, or Latin, to know God's word. It's really quite simple. But Mr. Sublett, you are WRONG about singing, DEAD WRONG. And your attitude with some of the liberals on this site is rather disgusting. Start reading your Bible and quit reading so much on what others have said about the Bible, and for goodness' sake, leave the sex stuff alone. At the very least you sound like a broken record, and to some you sound like a sex-starved dirty old man. AS I've said in other posts (and I don't know whether this post will clear the moderator or not), I'm not mad at you, but you need to study, study, study the B-I-B-L-E, and leave yours and other men's think-so's out of it.



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Kenneth Sublett
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Re: Dirty Old Man

January 7 2003, 2:04 PM 

No way you can disconnect SEXUALITY and MUSIC because that is the UNIVERSAL connection. Lucifer brought both with HER after seducing the very angels.

It may offend you but neither of us can BREAK the record of the Bible and History. I won't quit until you wake up and recognize the Holy Whore prophesied almost at the end of God's Message to us. That is why they ALWAYS USED women in pagan religion: to fill up the collection plates. Unfortunately, my sword hits organic instruments (organum) as honestly as it hits mechanical instruments. Neither flapping WING has the slightest interest in having an EDUCATED body.

Thank you for your keen observation. You know, people come in two classes. First, is the priest sent to slaughter animals. To that they added singing and loud instruments (not music). The Levites are the MUSICAL MOCKERS fulfilled in the murder of Jesus with music treating him as BELIAR.

Next, the PROPHETS universally, 100% of the time repudiate the RELIGION of the temple because God had TURNED THEM OVER TO WORSHIP THE STARRY HOST. The temple and king were LIKE THE NATIONS to repudiate God and lead the people into captivity and death.

The PROPHETS were always cursed and thrown into deep mud holes up to their neck. Nevertheless, they NEVER CEASED associating Jewish singing and instruments with telling God: "We will not listen to your Word."

No, the church was not wrong for 2,000 years. The word sing or ODE was to chant because SINGING did not exist as YOU know it. Probably Alexander Campbell introduced "religious hymns" into the Restoration Movement because he had a song book to peddle. Musicologists recognize church "hymnology" as a product of the lost and ignorant frontier adopting VOODOO from the blacks also trying to find their way back to paganism. The same "music" left Africa and went to Babylon.

The Britannica notes that:

"Melody as 'tunefulness' belongs to the 19th century and depends on symmetries of harmony and rhythm which seldom occurs in music written before the 16th century...

That is why YOUR SING is NOT Paul's SING nor the SING of early church practices.

Matthew 26:29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Fathers kingdom.

Matthew 26:30 And when they had {sung} an HYMN, they went out into the mount of Olives.

A "hymn" is one of the forms of the Psalms. The Septuagint (LXX) clearly identifies which PSALMS are HYMNS.

The first "non-music" DIRECT COMMAND by Paul was:

For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our LEARNING, that we through patience and comfort of the SCRIPTURES might have hope. Romans 15:4

Now the God of patience and consolation grant you to be likeminded one toward another according to Christ Jesus: Romans 15:5

That ye may with ONE MIND and ONE MOUTH glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. Romans 15:6

In Ephesians 5 the commanded RESOURCES were Biblical or "that which was written" or the Spirit of Christ which is His Word (John 6:63), or The Word of Christ" in Col 3:16

That EXCLUDES self-composed "scripture" to be used in the assembly or "school of the Bible." Church councils were held to prohibit it before instruments became a problem.

Now, if I can say THUS SAITH THE LORD then I am prophesying to you. To keep from tiring the masses you can click here to grasp what no preacher I ever knew (outside of primitive Baptists and many presbyterians) knows a tittle about the Satanic role of music in the bible.

Hymns "was that part of the Hallel consisting of Psalms 113-118; where the verb itself is rendered 'to sing praises' or 'praise' Acts 16:25; Heb 2:12. The Psalms are called, in general, 'hymns,' by Philo; Josephus calls them 'songs and hymns.'" Vine on Humneo

----That is why SUNG was an added, redundant word. So there is no Sing or Sang or Sung in the passage.

"Philo uses humnos regularly for the OT Psalms." MusPsallo1.html

There WAS NO SINGING as you grasp it and I don't need to be a prophet to tell you what the PROFITS hide from you:

"in music, intoned liturgical recitation of scriptural texts, guided by signs originally devised as textual accents, punctuations, and indications of emphasis.. Although first intended to clarify the reading of the texts." Jewish Liturgical Music. Singing in the Greek was the "natural intonation of the language.

---"Ritual music was at first only cantillation, i.e., recitative chanting, of the prose books of the Bible

---"Later the prayers and biblical poetry were CHANTED, presumably in a modal system similar to the ragas of Hindu music or the maqamat of Arab music, i.e., melodies with improvisations. Jewish Liturgical Music


In Islamic Worship:

--"Cantillation is also used in Islamic religious services in the recitation of the Qur'an and in the muezzin's call to prayer, or adhan.

---"Neither it nor the cantillation of the Qur'an are considered to be music, however, and music as such is forbidden in religious services.

I will direct you to the "infiltration and diverting" by the prostitutes and Sodomites around the temple in a smaller dose. The Levitical Panic Creators were not called MUSICIANS because music as such was the realm of innocent children or prostitutes or warriors. The Levitical "singers and players" performed the same NATIONAL exorcism while they were slaughtering tens of thousands of TYPES of Lord Jesus Christ also MOCKED with music by the same SINGERS AND MUSICIANS "Under the King and Commanders of the Army."

Everyone listened to the "prophesiers" which means to say "lord, lord" or "sing and play musical instruments." No one ever listened to the writing prophets. I don't expect most to listen and God has not given me the "god like" burden to be troubled by it. The gospel will not be preached for conversion but for a WITNESS.

The connection between singing and music beginning in the garden of Eden was Lucifer, the harp playing prostitute who sang beautiful songs. The Ancient Near Eastern Text identify the musical perversion against which Moses Warned. Singing and music is identified in the Bible with people treating God like a prostitute. All of the classical writings draw an identity between musicians and prostitutes. The church fathers agree. It is your task to prove that this is not the case and not to USE YOUR PENKNIFE on what I can prove. The fact that you should trust me is that I spend about 120 dollars a month to teach and do not see "godliness as a means of financial gain." Nothing Christian is for sale and nothing for sale is Christian: The Bible tells me so.

History is full of singing AND melody IN THE HEART or Spirit which is the only PLACE God looks for our worship. A Catholic expert notes:

"According to what has been said, it can be seen that the doctrine of the 'spiritual sacrifice' not only repudiated bloody sacrifices but also REJECTED MUSIC, particularly instrumental music, as a means of worshipping God. Although the 'spiritual sacrifice' was originally explained in terms of hymns of praise to God's goodness and majesty, its logical development eventually considered singing UNSUITABLE for divine worship." p. 54-55

Your SING is not Paul's SING and YOU don't write the inspired SCRIPTURE commanded to be EXCLUSIVELY in chanting or reciting the metrical BIBLE.

Sing praises to the LORD (singular), enthroned in Zion;
-----proclaim among the nations what he has done. Psalm 9:11
I remembered God, and was troubled: I complained, and my spirit was overwhelmed. Selah. Ps.77:3
-----I call (Mention, burn incense) to remembrance my song (h5058) in the night:
-----I commune with MY own HEART: and my SPIRIT made diligent search. Psalm 77:6
Sing UNTO HIM, sing psalms unto HIM:
----TALK ye of all his wondrous works. Ps.105:2

Whether your church knows it or not that is exactly what Paul said:

We SPEAK or PREACH or TEACH one another.
We sing (secular) AND make melody (compare SOP)
-----IN OUR HEART. IN THE HEART means IN THE HEART which means IN THE HEART and David agreed several times.

External HARMONY (not related to melody) is a frontal attack on the human SPIRIT. Jesus died to remove the burden laded by the clergy which is SPIRITUAL ANXIETY CREATED BY RELIGIOUS RITUAL.

Musical HARMONY creates a DRUG HIGH and you CANNOT give heed to Christ while giving heed to the MUSIC AND MUSICIANS. GIVE HEED is almost the UNIQUE "worship" word used by Paul. Diverting the mind from God's Word has always meant SPIRITUAL ADULTERY.

Please, never again, call me a CONSERVATIVE: I am a Christian which does not mean WORSHIPER but a DISCIPLE and both EXTREMES are just obverse sides of the same coin keeping up the sham battle to keey YOU from recognizing that "THE PEA IS UNDER NEITHER SHELL."

If you have more authority than my quoted scholars some of whom could have known John and SERMONIZED before Christ about music; or if a FREE document posted at a large human cost offends you while one slick willie sermonic exercise costing you a thousand bucks is honored then XCUZE ME I need to be busy with three people seeking an AUDIENCE with their pastor persons about SINGING or watching THE LION KING (Horus worship) while PRETENDING to remember the DEATH of Christ during the "Lord's Supper."

Ken Sublett

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Stan Cook
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"Sexual" Singing

February 27 2003, 3:44 PM 

God's Word condemns calling that which is sacred, sinful. Singing is a holy, sacred and a very important part of our worship. My concern is not with whether we have "praise teams", but with those like Kenneth, who seem to have impure thoughts. Only one with impure thoughts would take the singing we do in worship and associate it with something sexual. Only one with impure thoughts would make frequent references to the phallus. If a "praise team" or just one "song leader" happens to be up front directing the singing, it makes one wonder just exactly where it is that Mr. Sublett's mind and eyes are focused. Are they on a holy, pure, righteous God? Or are they trying to figure out if the microphones used by the "praise team" are phallic symbols, or if such is apparant anywhere else.

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Joe McKnight
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Time to Run

January 5 2003, 6:52 AM 

After reading your post and living through a church take over, I suggest it is time for you to run. Your defence for the praise team shows that you are starting to buy off on their lies, and once you start it is easy to slip into the pit with them. This is just a suggestion based on my experience, but if you stay put in place strong check and balances to know when it is time to leave.

To God be the Glory
Joe McKnight

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The "SURVEY" in action

May 5 2003, 8:15 PM 

The so called "survey" was crafted and distributed by the youth minister at the Red Bank Church in Chattanooga, TN. Approx. 2-4 months later worship "format", "style" began to change as a response to the survey. When asked privately and publicly for the survey results the Elders refused to release the results...except in general terms... with no firm numbers or responses... The Elders said these unsigned (because that is they way they instructed us to complete them) surveys were not ever going to be made available to anyone ... (except the select few... my words) They just did what they wanted to do anyway and used the secret results of this "survey" as justification.

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Doesn't Matter
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June 11 2003, 3:38 AM 


I am not going to be very eliquant here because I have a temper. Let me just say that this website is HOG WASH! There is nothing close to an accurate assesment about the majority of the statements made regaurding the West End Church of Christ. Let me bare in mind to the webmaster that allowing items to be published that are not based in fact can result in legal action. Just remember what happend to Jason Blair and fellow employees at the New York Times. As for the point of this website I guess your not just protecting the masses from the lies your helping to spread them too.

Ten points addressing fictional facts

1. There has never been a "survey" from the eldership concerning the worship practices at the West End Church.

2. The Youth minister was not from Chattanoga and he is not secretly trying to change our worship style. For those that are interested here is a snipt from his bio. >>>Wes, a native of Tennessee, was one of the youth ministers at the Madison church, and also interned as youth minister with the Northlake church in Atlanta. <<< I suppose Northlake church is bad too??? We already know your opion on the Madison Church of Christ.

3. The ranting about sexual music?!?!?! Whatever! West End does not have any sexual singing. I don't know what kind of drug induced looser started that thread but they do not even know what they are talking about.

4. Yes, West End did have a play but it was not "holy entertainment" it was not part of regular worship and yes that was "entertainment" but in the same "entertainment" spirit as a school play. But seeing as how we have a bunch of drug induced loosers making false statements I suppose one might not understand the difference. I guess your going to chastize us for hosting the Nashville Workcamp and allowing them to have a concert that involved a MUSICAL INSTRUMENTS! OH my! I already feel the flames after all in 1950 that was un heard of why should it be any differnt now!

5. The tangent on communion was taken outta context from the original post written by the "life time member" If you don't understand don't worry your most likely ignoring me by now anyway.

6. Ken Dye is just a person like everyone else he is not a conspiritor trying to pull some secret Hitler type takeover. Yes, he has attended the community church and he is open minded to worship ideas that are not rooted in the 1950's, but he does not have 666 tattoed on any of his body parts. And quite frankly those people that started the thread on him should consider the facts and re read Matthew 7. Look out for those planks!

7. Those that believe this is some type of destructive transition currently being experienced in the Church of Christ. Be warned it is not likely to go back to the archaic worship style enjoyed in the 1950's! As Dylan said "the times they are a changing" Like in business the church has transitional periods during which they remarket themselves. The worship patterns of the 1950's are no longer accepted and current to modern times. We now have a new world with new technology, and some of the best options to get the message out then we have had in years. I say toss out the overheads, song books, and suits and ties, and turn on the powerpoint, head to the hills and bring your sandals and shorts. If you don't understand that this is just transitional then your proably scared because your older and don't understand the new world economy,technology,and practices. Or perhaps it is just the same issues of control experienced by those who didn't want to let the gentiles be part of the church in biblical times. I suppose if you were part of the church of christ in the 1800's you might have said that those churches with the new song books were part of an evil transitional secret society too. OH and don't forget those evil people with four part voccal harmony we can have change this is the church of Christ.

9. West End does not 4have a "praise team!" The reality is they have a married couple plus one more person sometimes two that sit on the front row and sing like they normally would during a regular service. Most of the time you can't hear them over the others in the audience because the sound people have made the choice to "bury" them in the sound systems over all mix, so I doubt its going to be much more then another failed attempt. I think a praise team by definition would have to atleast get togther once and awhile to rehearse. These people do not practice unless you count fliping through the songs five minutes before service as a rehearsal.

10. If you are going to waste bandwith making up things about a church you have never attended. Then I beg of you at least listen to some of the sermons online or the weekly radio program so you can at least make a better attempt at pretending you know whats going on. I bet if we looked into it non of you attended madison church of christ either. One might even note that the whole website is a shameful example of why the church of christ may not last against the other worship options.

Ok now that I have made everyone mad and I am sure that this will start a thread about my poor gramer, my lack of facts, my lack of scripture, and a bunch of other things. Let me just leave you with this one last bit of advice. Read the book of James carefully then follow that with Matthew chpt 7. Then ask yourself if what your doing with this website and chat group really matters at the end of the day. I once remember a great minister that used and example at West End church involving a long piece of string and tape. For all of you who claim you know whats going on and most likely were not there I'll tell you that example. This minister placed the piece of tape on the string and then had one of the members take the other end so as the string was stretched accros the isle. He then asked the question "If the tape was your life and the string eternity would the things that matter most to you now have any relevance when your on the other side of the string?" If you made it this far then thank you for your time!

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(Login ConcernedMembers)


June 11 2003, 12:35 PM 

You say;

Ten points addressing fictional facts

1. There has never been a "survey" from the eldership concerning the worship practices at the West End Church.
Message from the moderator;

Sorry, the church's own web page tells about the survey.

"You have spoken through the recent vision survey response"

If your number 1 point is wrong, we must assume all of your points are.

Have a Nice Day!

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Kenneth Sublett
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Got a life

June 13 2003, 9:42 AM 

This is NOT a survey: it is a heavy handed NEW CONSTITUTION suggesting the abandonment of the OLD church of Christ which does not work past Y2K.

These are all of the HEGEL or Anderson code words to tell the church that we are a moving.

Furthermore, there is the usual assignment of the church as the product of the 1950s. Well, STAFF INFECTION was an earlier TRADITION which stuck: now the infection is spreading. It is TRADITIONAL to lie that the view of NOT USING instruments was invented by the OLD church of Christ. But that is a lie.

It is TRADITIONAL to lie about the Bible as authority making fun of the commands, examples and inferences of Scripture. But that denies that this is a Biblical DIRECT command to follow commands and was the view of all historical scholars.

This view changed with the Shelly CORE GOSPEL and the POSTMODERN view spewing out of "once" Christian colleges that the Bible lost its authority for faith and practice when the clock to Y2K clicked over. They even pronounce this is the end of the CHRISTENDOM ERA.

No. The survey would not pass the test of minimal ethics. It is telling people where to go and warning others that we are JUST ABOUT THERE.

You just watch and see. Why could an elder look himself in the face if he asks the survey to tell them which way to go. The elders have lost their grip and it is the ministers who are masters. Shelly tells you that the ministers are best equipped to lead and the SHEPHERDS shepherd the ministers. That is they have become the denominational BOARD OF DIRECTORS and the dominant Finto like leader has taken over. I remember meeting one of the "ministers" when he first came to Nashville: he was speaking about those old mean elders for firing him if I rememeber. That seems to be the PATTERNISM.


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Kenneth Sublett
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Re: get a life

June 13 2003, 10:03 PM 

Of Ezekiel 13 Matthew Henry said of male and female "prophets" or preachers for pay:

----They PROFANED the name of God by pretending to have received those lies from him (v. 19):
"You POLLUTE my name among my people, and make use of that for the patronising of your lies
----and the gaining of credit to them.'' Note, Those greatly POLLUTE God's holy name that make use of it to give countenance to falsehood and wickedness.
----Yet this they did for handfuls of barley and pieces of bread.

They did it for GAIN; they cared not what dishonour they did to God's name by their lying,
----so they could but make a hand of it for themselves.

There is nothing so sacred which men of MERCENARY spirits,
----in whom the love of this WORLD reigns,
----will not PROFANE and PROSTITUTE,
----if they can but get MONEY by the bargain.

The Hebrew CHALAL or HALAL gives rise to the word translated LUCIFER. It is translated as "to play the flute, to POLLUTE or to PROSTITUTE." It also has the meaning to TAKE YOUR INHERITANCE by PRUNING YOUR VINE. This is the meaning of the ZAMAR or MELODY. The PRUNING HOOK then and IN THE END TIME is the name of a MUSICAL INSTRUMENT.

Preaching for Pay without conviction is RELIGIOUS PROSTITUTION. If you do not believe the Bible and take pay it is like MALE PROSTITUTION: there is no FRUIT from the religious-musical rituals which applies only to superstitious paganism historically involving the MINISTRY of male and female prostitutes.

THE ELDERS AND DEACONS ARE THE PASTOR- TEACHERS as the ONLY ones who exercises any authority in a local congregation. If you hire someone to do what so many are doing to faithful churches you will have NOT returned to the New Testament. You have not become a MODERN church for the modern society. You have gone all the way back to BABYLON where the towers or temples were manned daily by priests (preachers), Soothsayers (singer- musicians), Prophets (liars) and PROSTITUTES, male and female. A prostitute or SPIRITUAL ADULTERER defined the Hebrews who SERVED in a religious sense and DEMANDS or GIVES PAY. Most of the Jewish clergy prostituted their teaching roles most of the time.

The Bible and History repudiate a WAGE for those who cluster around the temple and spread STAFF INFECTION. The scheme is a Works Project Apostasy (WPA) for lazy or incompetent men who have no CALL to "teach the Word as it has been taught."

Whatever church is being CONFISCATED we will prove that ONLY YOU have the authority of God on your side. No, the elders have no TAXING power to do that which the Bible does not demand as necessary.

And YOU are the only ones with the REAL POWER which Scripture gives to YOU and YOU only: your income which when TAXED deprives you, your children of the means for educating them. THERE IS NO LAW OF GIVING. THERE IS NO LAW OF TITHING. ANYONE WHO MAKES GIVING MANDATORY OR PREACHES THE TITHE HAS SINNED BEYOND REDEMPTION.


God took away their inheritance "to the beat of musical instruments" because they were devoted to WINE, WOMEN AND MUSIC and allowed the flock to hunger and thirst and die for lack of the WATER OF THE WORD.

CALL YOUR FRIENDS IF YOU WANT TO GET THE "BURDEN LADERS" RIDING YOU LIKE PACK ANIMALS OFF YOUR BACK AND BEGIN TO ENJOY THE FUNDAMENTAL MEANING OF THE GOSPEL: GOOD NEWS, JESUS CHRIST AS GOD INCARNATE DIED PHYSICALLY TO PURCHASE YOUR "REST" from the "spiritual anxiety created by religious rituals." They will INCREASE the anxiety and drive you into schizophrenia (Postmodern objective) in order to strip you of any will and then they will USE you and ABUSE your for their own joy and profit.

Anyone from any of the churches who has an honest question can e-mail me and I will gladly give you more evidence on the new PROFESSIONAL MINISTRY trained in communications, philosphy, psychology or heaven help us: THEATER or MUSIC. There is nothing in the Bible, in history or or arena of common decency which gives people the right to manipulate your minds with music and a growing financial TAXATION.

If you take the new surveys you will RESPOND as the survey informs you to respond or you will probably be MARKED as a trouble maker and forever excluded from the INNER CIRCLES of the Saddleback hostile takeover.

Ken Sublett

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Kenneth Sublett
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Re: get a life

June 14 2003, 12:37 PM 

We have noted and noted and noted that Jesus didn't promise to build a church but an ekklesia or SYNAGOGUE. Church is seen as a "worship center" but that is wholly and unholy paganism. The synagogue was and should be a SCHOOL OF THE BIBLE. Or, as the Restoration Movement in Thomas Campbell's mind should be A SCHOOL OF CHRIST. The primary "worshi" was to read and dialog or teach the Word "as it had been taught."

Alexander Campbell on Regenerating the Church notes:

"And, first of all, be it observed, that in some churches there appears to be wanting a proper method of handling the Scriptures to the edification of the brethren. It is admitted by all the holy brethren that the Scriptures of truth, called the living oracles, are the great instrument of God for all his purposes in the saints on earth. Through them they are CONVERTED to God, COMFORTED, CONSECRATED, made meet for an inheritance among the sanctified, and QUALIFIED for every good word and work.
----Every thing, then, depends upon the proper understanding of these VOLUMES of INSPIRATION. They can only operate as far as they are understood.

Campbell stated that:

"The system of SERMONIZING on a text is now almost universally ABANDONED by all who INTEND that their hearers should understand the TESTIMONY of GOD.

"ORATORS and exhorters may select a word, a phrase, or a verse; but all who feed the flock of God with knowledge and understanding know that this method is WHOLLY ABSURD.


"Give money to make poor pious youths learned clergy, or vain pretenders to erudition; and they pray that they may preach to you; yes, and pay them too.

"Was there ever such a craft as priestcraft? No, it is the craftiest of all crafts. It is so crafty that it obtains by its craft the means to make craftsmen, and then it makes the deluded support them!" (Campbell, Alexander, Christian Baptist, Dec. 1, 1823, Vol. 1, p. 91).

"MONEY is of vital consequence in the kingdom of the CLERGY. Without it a clergyman could not be made, nor a congregation supplied with a 'faithful pastor.' O Mammon, thou wonder-working god!" (Ibid., p. 124).

"'Will you,' said an honest inquirer, 'allow the clergy no salary at all? Will you not allow the poorer class of the clergy a decent little competence?' I replied I have NO allowances to make. Let them have what the Lord has allowed them. 'How much is that?' said he, JUST NOTHING at all, said I. A church constituted upon New Testament principles, having its own bishop or bishops, or, as sometimes called, elders, will not, and OUGHT NOT to suffer them to be in want of any thing necessary, provided they labor in word and doctrine, and provided also, they are ensamples to the flock in industry, disinterestedness, humility, hospitality, and charity to the poor. Such bishops will now be esteemed very highly in love for their words sake;
-------but especially those who, by THEIR OWN HANDS, minister not only to their own wants, but also to the wants of their brethren." (Ibid, p. 140).

"That any man is to be paid at all for preaching, i.e. making sermons and pronouncing them; or that any man is to be hired for a stipulated sum to preach and pray, and expound scripture, by the day, month, or year, I believe to be a relic of popery." (Ibid., Vol. 3, p. 185).

"Our Elder labors with his own hands, that he may live honestly..." (Vol. 5, p. 163).
-----"... our elders labor... for their support, and are not burdensome to the church; but in case of need..." (Vol, 5, p. 95).

Unfortunately "Big wolves have crept in on little sheeps toes wearing tutus" and have used unholy psychology to convinced the rarely-prepared elders that they need a KEEPER to move them into the NEW CENTURY.

"Those who LORD it over the people will soon begin to DESTROY Them. The word Balaam means 'the destroyer of the people.' If we turn back to the history of this strange figure as recorded in the book of Numbers we find that which clarifies three passages in the New Testament where 'the error of Balaam' (Jude 11), 'the way of Balaam' (II Pet. 2:15) and 'the doctrine of Balaam' are discussed." (Barnhouse, D.G., Revelation, Zondervan, p. 54

Ken Sublett

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You folks are wild.

June 15 2003, 5:13 PM 

What a read! I'll admit I got a little lost wading through that dense undergrowth of prose there, Ken. And all of the others, too. May I suggest that you boys and girls try and play nice for a change. Christianity...well i guess that one's a failed project...let's call it Christi-Anarchy (x-ref Dave Andrews' book) doesn't have to be such a head trip. I'm only 23 and I've driven myself nuts trying to get my head around it. In the process I've alienated others and my relationship with God, (or if that kind of talk gets to you I'll say "the way I feel about God and His teachings"), has dwindled. May I suggest that we all go back and re-read the Sermon on the Mount. I find Jesus to be the most amazing person who ever lived. It's difficult to divorce the churchy presuppositions that are a component of my fairly traditional (even that word is now under attack) upbringing from the way I respond to Jesus now. But I have tried, as I know is common for the Campbellite Tradition, to approach the story of Jesus without any preconceived notions. Like it or not, the story of Jesus is one full of compassion, concern, love, civil disobedience (bet you didn't see that one coming), service, forgiveness, and yes grace and mercy and the other ecclesiological words that I would rather ignore. Jesus was one radical dude. For those who are shocked and awed by such language reminiscent of the 1960's, you can breathe now. I mean radical in two forms. First he stands against most of what makes sense in this world -- again, read matthew's account. You people are smart; I don't have to spell them out for you. Second, he is at the root of how God approaches his people. That is, the fruit of the spirit. Not fruits, that isn't the concept. Just look at how he deals with people. Now, like any good syllogism (man I hate 'em) apply the common understanding that Christians, er I mean, followers of Jesus, are to image Christ, and then with that in mind, look over the posts on these boards and others. Then ask yourself, should I be involved in such things as writing, reading, responding, even pondering the notions mentioned? I only say this because I nearly drove myself insane arguing about these things, trying to prove and disprove, before I really looked at the truth about ministry, the way to live, and indeed life itself, abundantly. Hey life doesn't have to be so ugly all the time. How about turning up your head and smiling at the good gifts God has given us, like life. Like each other. Fellowship. Like the written word. The Parakletos. And for all of us reading this, communication. Food. The list continues. And I tire.
Yeshua Shalom.

And BTW, before you make a mad dash for that "Respond!" button, just get up from your desk, walk a round for a bit outside or in, wherever comfortable, and try not to think about anything. Just sit. And smile. maybe laugh a little's okay, I know you wanna.

This message has been edited by ConcernedMembers from IP address on Jun 16, 2003 8:14 AM

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Kenneth Sublett
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June 16 2003, 9:23 AM 

I quoted the UNIVERSAL teaching of the HOLY SPIRIT and if you don't believe or cannot understand simplle Bible Text or historical quotations maybe you need remedial reading. I clearly understand the HISSING whenever the "olden outdated" Bible is quoted.

There is NOT A SHRED OF SPIRIT- INSTRUCTED EVIDENCE that a church NEEDS or can TOLERATE a professional staff.

There is not a SHRED of historical documentation which does not utterly REPUDIATE people riding on the backs of widows and the poor working people who need the REST or help Jesus died to give and MINISTERS to support. The BURDEN is clergy- produced "spiritual anxiety by religious ritual." History says SEND THEM OUT or SEND THEM AWAY or GET THEM AN HONEST JOB. They will still have the same time Paul had when he worked when the people worked and SYNAGOGUED while they had time.

Paul established this as PATTERNISM: if they will not work neither shall they eat: he was speaking about the MANY false preachers.

Letting people ride on your back specificially to SOW DISCORD because of utter ignorance of either Christ or His word defines you as Paul defined the Corinthians (in my paraphrase): FOOLS LOVE TO BE FOOLED. When God pours out His wrath He "sends buffoons."


Try John Waddey's QUOTES of another "scholar" who just makes a fool of himself.

Look at MADISON "to change?" No!

Ken stating that this THREAD of tring to bring the church of Christ into PAGANISM (music) WILL NOT WORK so you guys need to repent.

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June 16 2003, 9:02 PM 

I have been a member of the church all my life. After coming across this website, I cannot believe the things that are happening in the church today. You have all gotten so caught up in contemporary vs. traditional that you have all forgotten the true purpose for worshipping and that is to praise God. Is it any wonder we have problems converting people and bringing them to the church with all this bickering going on. When you tell people you attend church of Christ what is their first reaction? For me, it's "oh I don't want to be a part of that church. They are all a bunch of hypocrites." I am ashamed that grown christian people cannot settle their differences without throwing "pot shots" at one another. I don't know who this Ken Sublett is, but I think he needs to stop condemming everyone who had a different opinion than his and start being more accepting of others. God put us on this earth to love each other, not sit on a website and debate doctrinal opinions. When all is said and done that is really what this debate is about;DOCTRINE. I pray that each of you will study the scriptures and ask God to give you wisdom and compassion for your fellow brothers and sisters in Christ. Just think about this: When we get to heaven do you think it will be divided into contemporary and traditional sections or will we all be there together loving each other and praising our wonderful savior. God is more concerned with what is in our hearts than he is with the style we worship him in. Let's stop all this pety arguing, and start putting our efforts into bringing more people to Christ. If you devoted the same abount of time to bringing people to God as you do on this web page, all the churches would be filled to capacity. May God have mercy on all your souls.

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Kenneth Sublett
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Ashemed too!

June 17 2003, 12:37 PM 

Lisa if you watch the other threads you will notice that I have connected RITUAL PRAISE SINGING as one of the oldst, most ignorant and most superstitious practice known to religious history. Praise singing is the belief that you can manipulate the LISTENING AUDIENCE or more likely appease God and encourage him so that he does fail you again and send rains or a large crop of lambs.

"To see to all of this the god had priests trained as cooks, bakers, waiters, and bathers, or as encomiasts (singers of praise) and musicians.

----"to make the god's meals festive, or as elegists to soothe him in times of stress and grief. Diversions from the daily routine were the great monthly festivals and also a number of special occasions.

The Britannica notes:

"Of Ceremonial objects: On occasion, objects have been used to compel the sacred (or divine) realm to act or react in a way that is favourable to the participants of the ceremonies or to the persons or activities with which such rituals are concerned,

---or to prevent the transcendent realm from harming or endangering them.

"These objects thus can be mediatory devices to contact the divine world,as, for example, the drums of shamans (religious personages with healing and psychic- transformation powers).

"Conversely, they can be mediatory devices used by a god or other supernatural being to relate to man in the profane realm.

"They may also be used to ensure that a CHIEF (preacher, elders) or sovereign of a tribe or nation is RECOGNIZED as having DIVINITY in cultic or community ceremonies. Of such a nature may be PHALLIC cults.

You know, like steeples and pillars and a huge temple: the biggest in the city.

Paul uses ONE EXCLUSIVE word for worship. When the people assemble they constitute the SYNAGOGUE. The church is A SCHOOL OF THE BIBLE. The synagogue began as the Qahal or "church in the wilderness" and in Num 10:7 God outlawed the TRIUMPH or ALARM. That means "playing instrments and/or "making a joyful noise before the Lord." That was the WARRIORS chant to MELT THE HEART of enemies such as Jesus Christ when they "praised him to death" as Beliar or Beel-zebub. The David PRAISE word was to make yourself vile.

Jesus exampled and Paul commanded us NOT to engage in praise singing which creates spiritual anxiety.
WE then that are strong ought to bear the infirmities of the weak, and not to PLEASE ourselves. Rom 15:1

PLEASE IS: Aresko (g700) ar-es'-ko; prob. from 142 (through the idea of exciting emotions)

AIRO (g142) ah'ee-ro; a prim. verb; to LIFT; by impl. to take up or AWAY; fig. to RAISE THE VOICE, KEEP IN SUSPENSE the MIND

Jesus came to give REST which is the opposite of what we too often see as worship but it rarely gives us real satisfaction. The laded burden which fits Paul's idea and which Jesus died to remove is the Greek:

Phortizo (g5412) for-tid'-zo; from 5414; to LOAD up.. figurative to OVERBURDEN with CEREMONIAL or SPIRITUAL ANXIETY.

Paul then commanded that the only way to GLORIFY GOD WITH ONE VOICE is to teach one another "WITH THAT WHICH IS WRITTEN." That is by the Spirit of Christ in the Apostles. Anyone who cannot grasp that is, according to Matthew 13, NOT SUPPOSED to grasp it.

Consistent with the direct command of God "there was no praise service in the synagogue." That EXCLUSIVE worship word was to GIVE HEED TO THE WORD or to "GIVE ATTENDANCE TO THE PUBLIC READING OF THE WORD, TO EXHORTATION (TO FOLLOW THE TEXT) AND TO DOCTRINE.

Paul never got close to prescribing a RITUAL called PRAISE SINGING. We praise Jesus by giving heed to Him through the Word. Your praise singing is lustfully giving attention to the PRAISE LEADER who in the Holy Place as a type of the church of Christ would be sacrificed and portered out with the DUNG just the way JESUS did the Musical mourning and praise team while HE was doing his work. Just like one "ejects dung." The classics have something to say about that.

Like me or lump me but YOU guys are performing what was universally associated with religious prostitution. I wish I could give you some relief from that terminal sin but there is not ONE JOT OR TITTLE in the Bible or history which does not agree with what I am telling you. Repentance and confession is the only thing which will cause Jesus to open your EYES and EARS. He did PLUG the eyes and ears of the performing Jewish clergy by speaking in parables and enraging them.


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Blessings to you, Lisa. And to Ken...

June 17 2003, 11:41 PM 

Dearest Ken, have you considered that a congregation of believers, or indeed one by her/himself, singing praises to God is not for the purpose or intention of, as you put it, "prevent(ing) the transcendent realm from harming or endangering them"? Or the possibility that they (parishioners engaged in singing) are not looking to "ensure that a CHIEF (preacher, elders) or sovereign of a tribe or nation is RECOGNIZED as having DIVINITY in cultic or community ceremonies"? In fact this most often isn’t the case. While not universally applicable, I believe many engage in this rich tradition as a means of showing love to God. Unconditional, Unequivocal, Logical, Emotional, Deserved but not commanded, love. This is accomplished on two different fronts, as I see it.

1 - Singing admittedly does invoke an emotional response. If not I would argue its irrelevance, much like bad, uninspired poetry or an “airplane novel” or elevator music. This emotional response is part of the reason that contemporary love songs, particularly in the last thirty years, have been so popular. They were in fact popular in the days of the Psalmist, as well as Solomon's Proverbs, and most obviously, the Song of Solomon. (Incidentally, the psalmist, David, danced and sang praises to God with a harp. Now I suppose some might say, "Ahh but David slept with Bathsheba so he obviously didn't understand the will of God" -- I've heard that argument before and frankly don't buy it based on the context of the greater canon of scripture.) These are professions of love, often spoken aloud in monotone (what we would call “music” didn’t really begin to evolve until after Constantine, and even then didn’t sound anything like the traditional four-part harmony we have become too accustomed to. It was, however, the ancient practice most closely related to contemporary singing. In fact I think the idea of singing a "love song" if you will to the creator and sustainer of mankind, the author and perfector of our faith, could arguably be a very powerful and meaningful method of worship. And I am using the most popular translation of that English word which is, "to attribute worth." In John Ortberg's book, The Life You've Always Wanted, he speaks of, "True Worship coming when there exists a transformation of the heart and a propelling towards obedience." I think this is what Jesus hopes for in his body. Obedience to God isn't, "Don't fly Kites; If so, you can go to hell." Instead he wants us to live in joyful exuberance of life, driven to serve him and just as importantly to serve others. I think this is Paul is talking about, which brings me to my next point.

2 - For those readers, and undoubtedly you as well, I think there is substantial evidence in the New Testament that, if following the tradition of "Sola Scriptura", promotes and advances the practice of singing as a viable and pleasing form of worship. X-ref these verses: Matthew 26:30; Acts 16:25; Romans 15:9; I Corinthians 14:15; Ephesians 5:19; Colossians 3:16; Hebrews 2:12; Hebrews 13:15; James 5:13. Hey for those of you like me who enjoy reading more than just the Second Testament, check out Job 38: 1a, 4a, and 7, Psalm 67, 70, 149, and 150. (Hey these passages are cool, too. Check out 1st Chronicles 9, 15, 23, and 29; also Psalm 118 and 136.) I really prefer not to use the prooftext blitzkreig made popular by the likes of Leroy Brownlow, J.E. Choate, and others before them, but I understand that while typically cold, it strikes a chord with those who rely so strongly on oversimplifying the written Word.

3 - That said, the departure from music as a part of worship services that I take you to promote was mostly a blip, if that, on the radar of mainline Christianity until it was more concretely developed in the American Enlightenment. (John Calvin even thought it (music) as more powerful than the spoken word). The Enlightenment response was primarily due to an assumption that the “essence of music could not be rationally approached…and created subjective feelings.” It was, incidentally, at this time in history that the Holy Spirit again came under attack by the intelligensia who believed it couldn’t be easily quantified or calculated, defined and categorized. This traditional approach to science is very dangerously applied to theology, (x-ref Francis Bacon, Renee Descartes, and other modernist scholars and clergy.) Admittedly, many songs of the era were not edifying God but took a more humanistic approach, in which case a point could be made by proponents of music limitation.

Ken, I think you have some really interesting ideas, and I think many could learn from what is undoubtedly a vast intellect, and more importantly, an earnest desire to minister to others and to follow God's commands to the fullest. Your study of the Babylonian creation myth and of Mesopotamian religious history are admirable. I wonder, though, if you have started with a historical presumption that is not well founded in biblical fact, or in epistemological church history. But I do not wish to discourage you from your zeal, nor do I wish to imply that I have the answers to this topic debated throughout all denominations (even the most denominational of "non-denominations") and all centuries of Christian history. What I do believe is that all of us -- those posting on these boards, those simply reading the responses, and those who choose not to spend their time indulging a voyeuristic cat-n-mouse fantasy -- are eager to live in accordance with the gospel of Jesus Christ, the “good news” as laid out in the New Testament; and to see it in light of God as revealed in the Old Testament; and to be a part of the work that the Holy Spirit continues to do upon the earth.

May God's blessings be upon us all; May he ever watch over the widow and the orphan; May he forgive us for the ungrace that we bestow upon others; May he give us the compassion to reach a dying world; and May he empower the church to fulfill his greatest commands, "to love God with all of our being and to love every living person with the same love that Jesus showed(s) to us.

Jonathan Cyr
An old West End family member and friend

"Lord, help me to love without remorse
help me to give without reward
help me to live without regret"

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What's wrong with us???

June 18 2003, 11:15 AM 

First of all...Jonathan, I'm not replying directly to your message, your's just happened to be the last post on this page.

Brothers & Sisters- WE are the problem with churches today. The members of the Church of Christ have absolutely distroyed any desire for many unsaved people to search for God because of our spiritual snobbery & our manner of damning anyone who doesn't subscribe to our brand of religion. Through the years, we have treated each other worse than any of my unsaved friends would ever think of treating anyone. I know that there are some people who have strayed very far away from the truth that is in God's word, but this is not the manner to handle it. Jesus called the Pharisees a "brood of vipers"...He could very well call us the same thing! We bad mouth anyone who has a different view of scripture than we do, but how often do we go to that person to discuss our different views?

The Bible is NOT a roadmap or instruction list! We should stop viewing it as such. The Mosaic Law was laid out with the checklists that we so often look for, but there are no such checklists within the New Law. I firmly believe that it IS open for some interpretation, in order to give us freedom in our ways of praising God. If you were to come to me to tell me that you think that there is no interpretation allowed, then I will not condemn you for it.

Do you think that God puts his fingers in his ears whenever he hears the praises from a church with a praise team? Do you think he does this when he hears a conservative church with 10 members? Do you think he does this whenever he hears a congregation with a guitar wielding worship leader? God wants our praise, but he DOES NOT give specifics! Yes, he rejected sacrifices in the Old Testament when they were not propper, but that was always because of a direct disobeyment of a direct command....there are no such direct commands regarding modern worship.

I know that I have set myself up to be labeled a "Liberal." Some of you may even doubt my salvation at this point. But, my prayer is that as many people as possible will read this, and stop these things that have pushed us further from what God wants us to be. We need to quit beating each other up & learn to lift each other up.

This message has been edited by ConcernedMembers from IP address on Jun 18, 2003 12:38 PM

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Thank you anonymous. Amen :-)

June 18 2003, 2:01 PM 

Anonymous, I have to constantly be reminded of what is at the heart of being a child of God, and you have done this today. Thank you for your understanding. Thank you for reminding us that knowing God, really knowing him, isn't about what we think we understand about the bible. That in fact it is far less about thinking at all, and more about the heart...that is how we serve each other. I am a firm believer that neither liberalism nor conservatism (whatever those vague ambiguities mean), not the world nor science, nor unbelievers and what not -- none of these is the greatest enemy of the church. Indeed I believe it is the church itself. The older I get, and I'm only just out of college, the more I see why so many turn a deaf ear to the church and its members, for they can be some of the cruelist around. I know I have come across that way. It is one of the reasons that I have tried, and I don't think this is necessarily a good thing, to separate myself from the practice of weekly church attendance to discover what God has in store for me. I found myself feeling anger and distrust towards evangelists, either in the pulpit or anywhere else. I was in effect destroying myself and certainly any compassion for God and his creation. Until I can take joy in being in community with others, I have decided to separate myself from that practice.

Thank you for seeing the church for what it is: an extension of the kingdom of God on earth. A multinational, multilingual, multiracial family not bound by socio-economic class, skin color, creed, political affiliation or other such nonsense. What a joy it is to be heirs to the kingdom, beneficiaries of the promise of life, brothers and sisters of Christ, sons and daughters of God, friends of the world, in community with all of creation giving praise and glory and honour to the creator of the universe. Wow, what an awesome life to live!

May we devote our time to making peace on this earth, starting with our own neighborhoods. It's much more fun and creative, though a lot harder than hiding behind email addresses poking and prodding at others. May we always show mercy. May we always distribute grace. May we give of our time and of our money realizing that nothing we have is ours, but God's. But each other's. May we stop striving to be an irrelevant, elite social club wrought with rules and regulations, initiation ceremonies and black-balling techniques, and instead take the gospel seriously. We gotta start loving, and I'm starting with the man in the mirror...
Yeah now I've got a Michael Jackson vibe, sheesh.

Yeshua Shalom.

Jonathan Cyr

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...........................THE BOOK

What Happened At the Madison Church of Christ?

There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

To even start to understand whats happening here, you must read the background materials in the first of the book.

This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our web site;

Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)

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