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Kenneth Sublett
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Blessings Accepted and needed.

June 18 2003, 8:22 PM 

You have posed many questions and this will take some time. You should remember that the SYNAGOGUE was for the non-Levite people who were not on duty. There was never "any praise service in the synagogue" which was a SCHOOL OF THE BIBLE. David was not a worship minister and never led worship services. He was king and the Levitical Warrior musicians were not under the priests but the KING and the COMMANDERS OF THE ARMY. Even so, the sacrificial musicians could never enter into the Holy Place whose symbols are fulfilled ONLY by a synagogue where a musician would be executed. The Most Holy place is symbolic of MY SPIRIT where I come boldly before the Throne of Grace. The priests went in one at a time in silence and darkness. This is the human SPIRIT mediated by the "incense altar" or Christ as we worship God Who IS holy or pure Spirit and cannot be worshiped by the works of human hands or anything man has to offer but personal praise and prayer.

Jesus said "I will build MY synagogue (ekklesia) while He declared that worship is not in physical places but the PLACE of the spirit or human heart as it gives heed to TRUTH. Paul said that the converted Jews now "worship God IN THE SPIRIT" which is opposed to IN THE FLESH or place.

I have lots of Calvin who utterly repudiated music in the asssembly and only inspired songs were sung as Paul commanded.

Let Calvin Speak to show that the POWER of music can instil false doctrine powerfully. Therefore, use God's Praise songs:
Now in treating music I recognize two parts, to wit, the word, that is the subject and text, and the song, or melody.

It is true, as St. Paul says, that all evil words will pervert good morals.

But when melody goes with them, they will pierce the heart much more strongly and enter within. Just as wine is funneled into a barrel, so are venom and corruption distilled to the very depths of the heart by melody.

So what are we to do? We should have songs that are not only upright but holy, that will spur us to pray to God and praise Him, to meditate on His works so as to love Him, to fear Him, to honor Him, and glorify Him.
For what St. Augustine said is true, that one can sing nothing worthy of God save what one HAS RECEIVED from Him.

Wherefore though we look far and wide we will find no better songs nor songs more suitable to that purpose than the Psalms of David, which the Holy Spirit made and imparted to him. (The Spirit of Christ 1 Pet 1:11)

Thus, singing them we may be sure that our words come from God just as if He were to sing in us for His own exaltation. Wherefore Chrysostom exhorts men, women, and children alike to get used to singing them, so as through this act of meditation to become as one with the choir of angels.

Then, too, we must keep in mind what St. Paul says, that devotional songs can be sung well ONLY by the HEART. Now the heart implies intelligence, which, says St. Augustine, is the difference between the singing of men and that of birds. For though a linnet, a nightingale, or a parrot sing ever so well, it will be without understanding. Now it is man's gift to be able to sing and to know what it is he is singing.

[Paul did not prescribe external melody which one does with a twanging arror, a yanked hair or like the SOP which Jesus rubbed off for Judas whose bag was for "carrying mouthpieces of wind instruments. The MUSICAL word is never used in the Bible favorably]

Calvin again: AFTER INTELLIGENCE, the heart and the emotions must follow, and this can happen only if we have the hymn engraved in our memory so that it will never cease.

And therefore the present book needs little recommendation from me, seeing that in and of itself it possesses its own value and sings its own praise. Only let the world have the good sense henceforth to leave off singing those songs-in part vain and frivolous, in part stupid and dull, in part foul and vile and in consequence evil and destructive-which it has availed itself of up to now,

----and to use these divine and heavenly canticles with good King David. As for the melody, it has seemed best to moderate it in the way we have done, so as to lend it the gravity and majesty that befits its subject, and as might even be suitable for singing in church, according to what has been said.

Many religions continue this practice which we undoubtedly abandoned when Alexander Campbell had his OWN song book. Standard Publishing then published one with musical notes and decreed it the ONLY AUTHORIZED song book. We sing this voodoo influence stuff because the PUBLISHERS tell us so.

More later. Ken

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Kenneth Sublett
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June 19 2003, 9:23 AM 

Jonathan: 2 - For those readers, and undoubtedly you as well (read real good), I think there is substantial evidence in the New Testament that, if following the tradition of "Sola Scriptura", promotes and advances the practice of singing as a viable and pleasing form of worship.

I don't think that Scripture anywhere promotes singing as a GOD pleasing form of assembled worship. While the local body is synagogue or school of the Bible it also is the time to remember and show forth (preach) the death of Jesus Christ. Nothing in the Bible about music is related to the WORSHIP word except as condemned. You simply do not MAKE MUSIC in the class room of Christ. None of the quoted passages have anything to do with the assembly.

THEIR singing was not OUR singing. When you read a Greek text, you spoke to someone. When you read or recited a POETIC peace you sang. A team is not remotely connected to the idea of "singing" as "speaking the word." It is an "organic organ" singing organum as a performance. You worship whatever you GIVE HEED TO. You cannot give heed to Christ as the One Master Teacher and at the same time give heed to the "body worship."

You cannot obey the direct command to TEACH or PREACH the inspired text in the form of SINGING with the melody (grinding to a fine powder) in your mouth. There is a fairly clear directive as to WHERE the grace or melody rests. Jesus said that the worship component is in the human heart or spirit (John 4) and the Samaritan woman at the well grasped that Messiah did not come to be worshipped ritualistically but "HE WILL TEACH US ALL THINGS."

The Britannica notes that MELODY AS TUNEFULNESS belongs to the 19th century. Therefore, I know that it was not MUSIC.

Luther on Sola Scriptura said: "I can soon judge and say whether their doctrine is of God or of man; for I am doing the will of God, who sent Christ. I have given ear to NONE but God's Word, and say:

----'Dear Lord Christ, I want to be thy PUPIL, and I believe thy Word. I will close my eyes and surrender to thy Word.' [You see, sola scripture says that GOD does the speaking and singing.]

"Thus He makes me a free nobleman, yes, a fine doctor and teacher, who is CAPTIVE to the Word of God, and is able to judge the errors and the faith of the pope, Turks, Jews and Sacramentarians. They must fall, and I tread them underfoot. I have become a doctor and a judge who judges correctly." (LW. 23.230; Q. in Wood, 121) For Luther, therefore,

---"SCRIPTURE became the cornerstone of all KNOWLEDGE of God.

"The Word provided the sole foundation for both individuals and institutionalized Church.

Think about it: do you thank the boss for his leadership, or do you organize a MUSICAL PRAISE TEAM?

On Romans 15 which excludes efforts to stimulate EXCITEMENT Calvin wrote:

"That with one accord ye may with ONE MOUTH glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ."

"52. All the good we can do to God is to praise and to thank him. This is the only true service we can render him, according to his words in Psalm 50, 23:

"Whoso offereth the sacrifice of thanksgiving glorifieth me; and to him that ordereth his way aright will I show the salvation of God."

"We receive all blessings from him, in return for which we should make the offering of praise. If anything else purporting to be service to God is presented for your consideration rest assured it is erroneous and delusive.

"For instance, the DISTRACTED world attempts to serve God by setting apart houses, churches, cloisters; vestures, gold-trimmed, silk and every other kind;

----"silver vessels and images; bells and organs, candles and lamps;

----"the money for which expense should have been appropriated to the poor if the object was to make an offering to God.

"Further, it keeps up a muttering and wailing in the churches day and night.

"But true praise and honor of God, a service that CANNOT be confined to PLACE or PERSON, is quietly ignored the world over.

"The pretenses of priests and monks about their system of exercises being service to the Lord, are false and delusive.

53. Service to God is praise of him. It must be free and voluntary, at table, in the chamber, cellar, garret, in house or field, in all places, with all persons, at all times.

----Whosoever teaches otherwise is no less guilty of falsehood than the Pope and the devil himself.


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Kenneth Sublett
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June 21 2003, 4:14 PM 

Jonathan you mentioned the singing in Romans 15:9.

I have submitted a quick (unchecked) look at Psalm 22 to try to understand this statement. When Jesus ask why God had forsaken Him He was using a common device often used by Paul. That is, by quoting the first part of Psalm 22 you are supposed to go there for the rest of the story.

In the end Jesus would triumph over the enemies. And the enemies were prophesied in several psalms to attack Jesus with the Levitical Warrior musicians. I have posted my quick study here.

The strong deluders are still left without a shred of Biblical or parallel document evidence that God wants to be "worshipped" with music which intends to and does "take away the key to knowledge." What we are seeing out of a small band of men seems like the wonder working deceiving prophesied for the end times. I don't mean to be nasty (it's congenital) but I cannot find these men writing without making themselves seem like BUFFOONS. That is the meaning of God pouring out His wrath: making them stand up commedians.

That's the way I READ it: gotta happen some time. The message is IF THEY RAISE THEIR VOICES they are wearing a sheep skin and Jesus is comming to peel them off.


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Kenneth Sublett
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Singing to the Gentiles

June 22 2003, 12:32 PM 

I have connected Psalm 22 to the SINGING TO THE GENTILES. Psalm 22 makes it clear that the SINGING as MOCKING Jesus was not SPIRITUAL WORSHIP. Furthermore, as Jesus groaned out a hymn, Paul said that we should observe the Lord's Supper to SHOW FORTH His death. That is, the ACT is not to ritualistically CELEBRATE His resurrrection but to not lose sight of HIS SUFFERING at the hands of the Mocking musicians:

----"Saying, I will DECLARE thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise (hymn) unto thee. Heb 2:12

DECLARE in Greek is:

--Apagello (g518) ap-ang-el'-lo; from 575 and the base of 32; to announce: - bring word (again), declare, report, shew (again), tell.

----Aggelos (g32) ang'-el-os; from aggello, [prob. der. from 71; comp. 34] (to bring tidings); a messenger; esp. an "angel"; by impl. a pastor: - angel, messenger
This does not mean to entertain but to do the work of an EVANGELIST: Speak or Preach to one another:

----Euaggelizo (g2097) yoo-ang-ghel-id'-zo; from 2095 and 32; to announce good news ("evangelize") espec. the gospel: - declare, bring (declare, show) glad (good) tidings, PREACH (the gospel).

An angel is a messenger. The GOOD news when WROUGHT became the ev-angel. A messenger who rushed across rivers and mountains to bring news of victory was an evangelist. Jesus Christ, the Angel of the Old Testament endured great agony in order to "sing to the Gentiles."

Sing is not MUSIC.

----Apalgeo (g524) ap-alg-eh'-o; from 575 and algeo (to SMART); to GRIEVE out, i.e. become APATHETIC: - be past feeling

The AFFLICTION prophesied for Jesus was responsive singing. It is related to the same idea in Hebrew:

---Anah (h578) aw-naw'; a prim. root; to GROAN: - lament, mourn.

When the "team" sings, claps and sings THAT WHICH the performers have written you are once again AFFLICTING Jesus Christ rather than DEMONSTRATING and SHARING with His GRIEVEING OUT which He still does for all but a TINY REMNANT.

Paul told the Corinthians they DID NOT assembley to eat the Lord's Supper but to sing and pray out of their OWN spirit. Their ritual would be seen as MADNESS or insanity. From this it is clear that they SHOULD HAVE MET primarily for teaching and for the Lord's Supper.

----"For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lords death till he come. 1 Cor 11:26

Declare or SHOW FORTH is what Jesus would do in the assembly as He groans out of suffering and not celebration:

--Kataggello (g2605) kat-ang-gel'-lo; from 2596 and the base of 32; to proclaim, promulgate: - declare, preach, shew, speak of, teach.

----"Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Col.1:28
Warning is;

---Noutheteo (g2560) noo-thet-eh'-o; from the same as 3559; to put in mind, i.e. (by impl.) to CAUTION or REPROVE gently: - admonish, warn.

Thus, this SPEAKING the Words of Christ is not PENTECOSTAL PROFESSIONAL MUSIC but it is to "psallo" or abrade or cut up the heart in a graceful way to warn or GRIEVE OUT.

This is the meaning of Pauls EXTERNAL speaking or preaching with the SINGING in the heart:

----"Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord. Col.3:16

This speaking the WORDS of Christ intends to GENTLY ADMONISH and cause us to grieve out the hymn rather than to MUSICALLY PERFORM it pretending that we are superior to Christ and His Words.

----"Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers. Ep.4:29

You and all of the churches I am aware of or have heard about in the last few years are UNDER HEAVY BONDAGE by men who HAVE NO LAWFUL role to play as PROFESSIONAL fathers of YOUR family because the have not faith in the WORDS of the Living Word and have no TEARS to shed for the lost world: 'They play on the harp but are not GRIEVED over the lost.'

Your PUNISHMENT for having allowed yourself to be SADDLED up like a pack animal by DOCTORS OF THE LAW is that God has SENT YOU STRONG DELUDERS to produce STRONG DELUSIONS. There is NOTHING related to the Assembly of Christ and there is EVERYTHING proving that you are under SPIRITUAL BONDAGE. Why can't you see it? Why do all victims of CULTS subjected to psychological BRAIN WASHING burn themselves down? But Paul did say of the Corinthians in so many words: "Fools love to be fooled."

Check it again:

You can just about poke a pin in the Bible and find the NEW STYLE WORSHIP as a show of deliberate lack of REVERENCE and GODLY FEAR and Paul said that it is still a fact that OUR GOD IS A CONSUMING FIRE.


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Joshua Douglas
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Quit Hiding

June 25 2003, 10:44 PM 

I have an idea. How about everyone who actually goes to West End put their real names by their posts. You should not be afraid to speak your mind. Also, if you do not go to West End, why are you here. Do you not have anything better to do with your day than quote scripture to proove your arguments? How about you come to West End and meet some of the wonderful servants of God that attend. About the survey, we did take a survey and it did have questions about worship on it, but who cares. If we all stop worrying about the politics in the church and start loving one another and serving our God, all of the 'Problems' will work themselves out. Don't get me wrong, I disagree with a few things that go on at West End, but I try not to let them get in the way of my focus. I love my brothers and sisters at West End and my focus is God.
Love in the Lord

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Is this a joke?

July 19 2003, 12:13 AM 

Is this web site a joke or hoax? I stumbled upon a site that lead me to this series of messages.

I'm not a member of the Church of Christ denomination, but I can assure you, I won't be looking for one now. If you people are serious, this is the most rediculous thing I've ever seen in the name of Christ.

I won't be back here, but I thought I leave my sentiments. I hope that your faith grows deeper in the things that Christ and the apostles spoke of such as love, changing lives, grace, peace, fruit of the spirit, etc. I'm not seeing much of that here. Sure, those thinngs may not be part of the topic of this thread, but what you are talking about sounds like Jehovah's Witnesses, 7th day Adventists or some other works/law oriented thing. I understand that some people may not want their church to change, but it doesn't appear that people are allowed to have differing opinions without condemnation.

18 years ago, Christ freed me from 7 years of daily drug use (as well as heavy alcohol). Two of my closest friends were never freed from them. One has been in and out of prison and and the other died of overdose. People like that need Christ. On the other hand, the Pharisees needed Jesus too, but most were dictating their man made rules too much to listen to him and think (hearing but never understanding).

Now that I've written all this, I'm wondering why I even kept reading after I saw how silly this site is. I'm going to try to put my mind back on things above.


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Ignorant Ungodly Trash

July 22 2003, 6:22 PM 


I am a member of the church of Christ. Most of the stuff this site quotes as scripture and history is based on other legalists in the church of Christ and eisogesis, not true historical is someone's opinion. There are other opinions out there based on fact that you have to factor into the discussion for you to find out the truth. The supposed "change agents" are actually pretty learned people who have studied too much for their intelectual studies to be thrown out as "oh, but those guys are change agents."

I suggest you list this site in your churches that are going to hell...after that shut this place down.

NO ONE is coming to Christ because of this site!

This site DOES NOT glorify God.

Jesus must be crying right now because of this site (and don't say he's probably crying because of what happened at Madison or anywhere else, because that is not what I am addressing right now...that is a different subject).

When you say that we should all follow a certain set of doctrines, you are making yourself a FULL-ON DENOMINATION because they have people who tell each church what to believe. The CORE doctrine which is the GREATEST COMMAND is to love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind...and the second is like it: love your neighbor as yourself.

This is why we are having such a hard time winning souls to Christ, because people bring up ignorant arguments about secondary principles PERIOD.

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What is love?

July 27 2003, 7:59 PM 

Please note that the beginning of this web site states that anyone can worhip thw way they want....but the purpose of this site is to enlighten us about the takeovers being done, covertly, and I might add, because so many members no longer study the bible, rightly dividing the wordl of truth. I was a member where this very thing happened.
When I read about the other churches listed here, I was shocked to see the pattern. For instance, where we are, a few people came in and wanted a praise team...When people raised objection, that ALL are to praise God in song, etc. they were told, "Oh, they are just going to sit on the front row..You won't see them."
We were told by other churches of Christ that had been hit by the change agents, watch out, they will be up front within a year. We said, no way, our elders have assured us not. Well, within 6 months, they were standing up, doing solos, clapping and rocking in the aisles. When members objected, they were told.."What's the difference? You allowed them to sit down ...what's the difference now that they are standing up?"

I should interject here, that it was able to be done so quickly because we had a new preacher that the 2 elders who led everything picked...then THEY (for the first time in the history of the congregation, HAND-PICKED 6 new elders and told us who they were...
These were men that we all knew would go along with whatever they decided...6 very weak men, unversed in the bible. The members had no say in the selection of the elders. We should have realized at that point that the church here was doomed.

I guarantee you those who are getting praise teams, it won't stop there...instumental music and women being deacons, and serving communion will be next....changing the name to community church...or leaving off "church of christ" in the name
..."because that is offensive to some people". (WHAT???!!) That is what happened where we were worshipping....within 2 years!
We had 800 members. now there are 250 and most of them that are left are angry at the divisive takeover but refuse to leave. The church is totally dead and dying weekly...There are no outreach programs anymore....the only money collected has to go to the salaries. That is why we decided to finally leave.
If the majority had wanted all the above, fine, they can have it...but when a VERY small group comes in and changes the whole basis of the church and splits the church, that IS NOT LOVING!
We have had families torn apart. ...very loving families .... It cannot be right when it is so divisive. I admire you men who speak up and try to warn people what is happening. It is not LOVE to sit by and say, "h let's just love each other and all get along." Did Christ say that to the moneychangers in the temple? Christ took a very hard- nosed approach to truth and He taught us that the most loving thing we can do is help our brother not fall into a pit.
It is not loving to let us have women as deacons and to serve communion, pray in the assemblies and "give testimony" when the bible is so clear against women speaking up in the church and having authroity over men.
There are some things that are not necesarily wrong sometimes, in and of themselves, but where is the christian love for our say, you know, I don't see anything wrong with lifting up my hands into the air when I sing, but if it is offensive to 1/2 the people in the audience with me, then perhaps, the loving thing is for me to go to a chuirch where it is widely accepted or not do it, if it will offend my brother and cause him to leave.
Sadly, I would have taken the position of some of you about 2 years ago...oh, it's just a praise team, what't the deal...but it does not stop there, and the majority do not want all this rocky, rolly clapping and women taking over, etc. Please, those that want it, do the loving thing and leave and start your own congregation...Don't take over a long-standing, traditional church of Christ and split it apart! tearing up families and friends. THAT is the real UNLOVING GROUP, not those who are trying to alert you and preventing these destructive takeovers. Are these men "therefore now your enenmy because they tell you the truth?" Gal. 4:16

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David K.
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Biblical Authority

August 9 2003, 6:18 PM 

It is clear the C of C is at a crossroads at this time.
I attended a CofC up to a couple of years ago at the age of 39 I left for a true non-denomination church where the entire Bible is preached.

Today some C of C's are starting to preach the whole Bible, and the rest are in an uproar.

The problem at most C of C's is they speak where the Bible speaks and are silent where it is silent,

but they also speak where the Bible is silent and silent where the Bible speaks.

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Re: Biblical Authority

August 10 2003, 10:02 PM 

And don't forget: "They SING where the Bible is Silent and PLAY where the Bible is silent."

But, the Word of God IS NOT SILENT about either singing secular praise tunes or playing instrument or doing anything to AROUSE THE PLEASURE ZONES (Rom 15).

They are SUPPOSED to do SYNAGOGUE and not church. That means that the PURPOSE is to "glorify God," the METHOD is with "one mind and one voice" and the RESOURCE is "that which is written.

In Ephesians and Colossians the MODE was SPEAKING or PREACHING, the RESOURCE was the SPIRIT (the Words of Christ Jn 6:63) and the singing AND melody was IN THE HEART. That makes sense because Jesus said that God only SEEKS those who can worship in the PLACE of their human spirit as it GIVES HEED (that unique worship word for Paul) to the TRUTH. That is why he said that those of the CIRCUMCISION no longer worship in TIME and PLACE but IN THE SPIRIT continually. John was IN THE SPIRIT on the Lord's Day and that is the PLACE he MUST be in to hear from God.

That was important in both the Greek world which was then the Hebrew world where "rhetoricians, sophists, singers, musicians and craftsmen" belonged to the SECT of the Hypocrites. They define the SORCERY in the book of revelation and will go back into hell with the holy whore (Circe or church in John's islands). All and especially singers and instrument players (the ISTS as in flutISTS) who were identified as PARASITES.

Romans 15 defines a synagogue setting which would imitate what Jesus Christ would do: they would do nothing to ARUSE feelings of pleasure, they would be considerate of others, they would GLORIFY GOD using ONE MIND and ONE VOICE. Their only RESURCE was "that which is written."

So, it IS possible for us to ALL SPEAK THE SAME THINGS if our SPEAKING is like the synagogue: "that which is written, the Spirit (Words of Christ Jn 6:63, Eph 5) or the WORDS of Christ (Col 3.) "Sing" in the Greek world was limited to a few "notes" and in the "lower register" which is suited to the SPEAKING voice and Paul demanded that of us. "Singing" was melodic or vocal and NEVER harmonic where "tunefulness in melody relates to the 19the century."

Any of the higher registers or MODES including singing and playing instruments was INTENDED to induce a form of MADNESS called ecstasy in Paul's mind. This drove you OVER THE EDGE and the madness was interpreted as the GODS inside of you. This was something like David's PLAYING (as at Mount Sinai) in moving the Ark to the Jebusite High Place. The singing, playing and circular dance also induced dizziness where PUKING was proof of God's presence. The word HALAL for his praise most often means to MAKE YOURSELF VILE. And that is what Michal saw.

So the first fatal step was the NEW STYLE SONG books outsourced from the Wimbers of Vineyard INTENDED to induce a SEXUAL CLIMACTIC EXPERIEND: just before the final ACT of "giving of means." Most churches of Christ have bought into the CHURCH IS FOR WORSHIP Insanity and the more CLIMACTIC they make people feel the more they will return to be further brain damaged and fleeced.

The Bible is not SILENT about music: it holds Lucifer to having led the fallen angels. As SERPENT everyone in that area knew that it meant MUSICAL ENCHANTER. SHE is the "harp playing prostitute" as the king/queen of Tyre. We have recorded testimony that she/he used SINGING GIRLS to sell cedar to the Egyptians, get him cozy with music, steal the cedar back and conspire to murder him.

The king/queen of Babylon is a type of Lucifer: He/she would go into SHEOL with her harps and harpists to ROT on a bed of maggots. We have FOUND them.

As the end-time Babylon Whore she will again be sent back into hell with her craftsmen, musicians, instrument players and grinders (prostitutes).

So, I would say that MANY churches long ago took the fatal step of seeing SPEAKING as MUSICAL WORSHIP and the REMNANT PRINCIPLE doesn't give much hope for repentance.

Ken Sublett

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David K.
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August 12 2003, 9:34 AM 

Hi Ken,
Well the music wasnt what I was talking about.

I am speaking of verses such as Acts 42,44,45,46,47.
And these examples are often and numerous throughout the Bible.

I dont see believers using fighting words about selling their possesions and goods and giving to those as they had need.
I dont see many believers meeting every day or eating together in each others homes reguarly.
No we have a fairly sanitized religious regiment and dont vary much from it, not just the church of Christ but most church's for that matter.
Acts 4:34 says, There were NO needy persons amoung them. For from time to time those who owned lands or houses sold them, brough the money from the sales and put them at the apostles feet and it was distributed as anyone had need.

I simply dont see us fighting to uphold these Biblical truths.

I do completely agree with you about the tithing issue.
We arent under the law of the tithe any more. If we were the above verse Acts 4:34 would be invalidated. Because there are givers and recievers in the church.
And if we were under the tithe, the true tithe, since we give cash and not goods and services would be 12%, plus 12%, plus and additional 12% every third year.
Thats a whopping 28%. If anybody is giving 28% out there they are giving the true tithe. Its not 10%.

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Kenneth Sublett
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August 12 2003, 5:32 PM 

I was just fishing, but music goes to the point.

For instance if West End buys an OUTREACH MINISTER and the outreach minister probably calls forth a $90,000.00 "worship minister" (as God warned about what the KINGS would do) to make HIS work INREACH then we all understand why the LAW OF GIVING yields for the only Biblical "targets" about what the tele-marketers yield.

Since the DESTITUTE was the Biblical and historical target group for the giving of the PROSPEROUS (not hungry?) and they now get 5% to 10% while unlawful PYRAMIDAL MINISTRY TEAMS and temple and grounds gets MOST OF IT, there simply is no way that can be defined as a CHRISTIAN assembly.

The MUSICAL function and other PERFORMING ARTS is the VISIBLE mark of an invisible spiritual death. Most of the charity works in my experience has emerged out of women and men from the back pews and not something many leaders losing sleep over the unlawful debt can originate.


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December 1 2003, 11:12 PM 

I really liked what you had to say.
Thank you.

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Update please

February 9 2006, 5:34 PM 

Paul laid it down as a Law that there are no STAFF (rimes with shaft) executive ministers in the body of Christ who is executive BECAUSE He gave up His life.

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January 1 2012, 11:54 AM 


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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)

John 13: Jesus defines the Judas:Son of Perdition return

January 3 2012, 2:45 PM 


There is no role for performance music when the church gathers as "a school of the Word of Christ in the prophets and apostles."

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This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address on Jan 3, 2012 4:15 PM

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...........................THE BOOK

What Happened At the Madison Church of Christ?

There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

To even start to understand whats happening here, you must read the background materials in the first of the book.

This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our web site;

Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)

Click Here......The Book is Available Now FREE

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