The appointment of this minister in 1999 seems to show where the West End Elders planned to go long before they asks their members.

Look at this minister's past Church associations, to see clearly where Westend wants to go.

http://www.westendcoc.org/ken_dye.html

I was surprised to read Ken Dye's resume on the West End Church of Christ Website. I have lived in Hendersonville for 17 years and at no time has the Hendersonville Community Church ever been called a church of Christ. Why in the world would they state that on their website?

I was a member at the Stillwater church of Christ for a few years in the mid 90's and he wasn't there then. At the time, I thought the church was very 'liberal', but now it seems conservative by comparison.

Hendersonville Comm. Church was the Hendersonville Community Church of Christ for a few years after the split. They drop the name Church of Christ after the event a few years ago that cause such a turmoil.
One Sunday they drought in group of singers and their muscial instruments, this caused a preacher to be fired from David Lipscomb and an asist preacher to quit, and the congergation changed it's name.

If you read closely, you will see they are talking about two different Churches. "The Hendersonvile Church of Christ" and the "Community Church of Christ" which is also in Hendersonville.

If you have lived in Hendersonville for that long you must be totally stupid or ignorant because up until 2000 the church that split from Hendersonville Church of Christ was called Hendersonville Community Church of Christ. It changed when Lipscomb responded to jerks who got their panties in an uproar and asked for Doug Varnado's resignation.

In the Bible and history you don't appoint a LOCATED OUTREACH MINISTER: you SEND them out or SEND THEM AWAY according to early church history.

You don't appoint a MISSIONARY IN RESIDENCE unless you are ungodly. The AGENTS claim that the Bible has been SIFTED by the Bible writer's personal agenda and philosophy. That means that ALL THE rest is apparntly UNGODLY TRASH. Calling clear Bible quotations UNGODLY TRASH is the exact meaning of the insanity of the POST MODERN MIND which wants a different Jesus who apparently didn't teach DOCTRINE (teachings). Let me show you that the Bible and Greek Scholarship identified PHARISEES and SCRIBES but it also identified another PROFESSIONAL GROOP: the HYPOCRITES. Greek scholarship identifes them as rhetoricians, sophists (sOPHISts - ophis or the SERPENT in Revelation), singers, actors and instrument players as HYPOCRITES. Furthermore, the word HYPOCRITE or GUITAR PLAYER or trained "super-apoostles" as PARASITES.

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E-Mail Question: Why accept Greek baptizo- yet refuse to accept Greek psallo??

Greek psallo - to sing accompanied with instruments - English sing- to produce musical sounds with the voice (Greek- sing - a voice, oracle).

The church is neither consistent, nor honest, when they say the word "sing" (minus the instruments) is biblical for Eph. 5:19 "melody", I Cor.14:15, "sing", etc. Also, "Not honest" is when they fake ignorance of the real meaning of "psallo".

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The word PSALMOS is the same as SONG. A song by definition is written in meter so that it can be read silently, read aloud, chanted, sung or sung with an instrument. When we SINGIG A SONG everyone knows that it is metrical. Throughout Scripture when the idea of MAKE MELODY is used it is always SING (Psalmos) but that is never enough: the instrument is ALWAYS defined if it is intended. One might say "sing and MAKE MELODY on a harp." But, Paul said "sing and MAKE MELODY in the heart." Now, you can make melody ON the harp but you cannot sing and make melody ON a harp and IN the heart.

I can prove it to you and have ALL of the older scholars confess it: that ALL of the musical terms and names of instruments in the Old Testament relate to Satan, to animal sacrifices, to prostitutes. The except is the normal innocent playing of children and women.

The Word Psallo was not a MUSICAL word but in the Greek it was used of the Yanking, pulling, snapping or otherwise using the FINGERS to yank or pluck out a hair or to send an arrow into the literal Heart. Then it was used of a harp but ONLY in the sense of PULLING a string and suddenly let it go.

Finally, it was used of singing the Psalms by early Christians. However, like ALL musical terms, the word has BITTER ROOTS. So, we ask, would Paul use a WARRIOR'S TERM to send panic into the heart of the enemy often with twanging bow strings (like harps) to define TEACHING one another in a spiritual assembly? He used the word to define what goes on in the human heart when we SING with Jesus. This was to REPUDIATE the "getting drunk with wine" which is PAUL'S message condemning instruments especially the flute because "getting drunk with wine and playing the flute" meant about the same thing to the Greeks.

Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, An Intermediate Greek-English Lexicon

Psallô [psaô]

--I. to touch sharply, to pluck, pull, twitch, Aesch.; toxou neuran ps.

--to TWANG the bow-string, Eur.; belos ek keraos ps.

--to send a shaft twanging from the bow, Anth.; so, schoinos miltophurês psallomenê a

----carpenter's red line, which is twitched and then suddenly let go, so as to leave a mark, id=Anth.

Only in a secondary sense does the word mean to PLUCK with the FINGERS. The defined act is PLUCKING and not the resulting MUSIC. You cannot strike and you cannot blow using psallo.
--
II. to play a stringed instrument with the fingers, NOT with the plectron, Hdt., Ar., Plat.

And only LATER to sing to a harp:

--2. later, to sing to a harp,

--And in the New Testament SING:sing, New Testament

This can have no application to wind instruments or percussion instruments.

A Similar Latin word

--REVELLO, velli, vulsum or volsum, 3, v. a., to pluck or pull away, to pull or TEAR OUT, to TEAR OFF or away

----I. Lit. be torn away, remove,

----II. Trop., to tear away, send away injurias honorificis verbis,

------Signum: A sign, signal; a watchword, password, given by a wind-instrument.


P. Vergilius Maro, Aeneid


She said, and from her QUIVER chose with speed
The WINGED SHAFT, predestin'd for the deed;
Then to the stubborn yew her strength applied,
Till the far distant horns approach'd on either side.
The bowstring touch'd her breast, so strong she drew;
WHIZZING in air the FATAL arrow flew.
--At once the TWANGING bow and SOUNDING dart
--The traitor heard, and felt the point within his HEART.
--Him, BEATING with his HEELS in pangs of death,
--His flying friends to foreign fields bequeath.
----The conqu'ring damsel, with expanded wings,
----The welcome message to her mistress brings

These notes show that the BOW as one of the earliest "musical instruments" always carried the idea of confilct:

Fragment 10, Aristotle, de mundo 5, 396b20

--Things taken together are wholes and not wholes, something is being brought together and brought apart, which is in tune and out of tune; out of all things there comes a unity, and out of a unity all things.

----The BOW is called STRIFE, but its WORK is DEATH


Fragment 209, Hippolytus Ref Ix, 9, I

They do not apprehend how being at variance it agrees with itself: there is a palintonos (counter-stretched) harmony, as in the BOW and the LYRE.(4)


Fragment 54, Hippolytus Ref IX, 9,5

An unapparent harmony is stronger than an apparent one.


Heraclitus: "All things come into being by CONFLICT of opposites, and the sum of things flows like a stream. This order, the same for all things, no one of gods or men has made, but it always was, and is, and ever shall be, an ever-living fire, kindling according to fixed measure, and EXTINGUISHED according to fixed measure. Justice meant a balance of opposites, and strife.

Heraclitus cited as an example the tension between the string and the frame in a bow or a musical instrument. 'Harmony lies in the bending back, as for instance of the bow or of the lyre... Opposition unites. From what draws apart results the most beautiful harmony. All things take place by strife'."(Parkes, Henry Bamford, Gods and Men The Origins of Western Culture, p. 188, Knopf)

Music is always PERFORMANCE and it is an artistic rendering of truth. The early rhetoricians or sophists who were trained to DRESS UP speech were identified as the sorcerers in the book of Revelation. Scripture authorizes only men who will faithfully deliver the word in the belief that God knew what He was saying. Those who did it as a PERFORMANCE were understood to be parasites. Any form of instrumental music intends to dress up God's words. Therefore, ALL instrument players were identified in the Greek world as parasites. Why would the Spirit permit a guitar player (the instrument of choice and apostate churches these days):

--kithara the Lat. cithara (whence guitar), a kind of lyre or lute, Hhymn., Hdt., attic: --it was of triangular shape, with seven strings, Eur. Cf. ki^tha^rizô


----Latin with similar definitions


----parasi-tor . a-ri, v. dep. [id.] , to play the parasite, to sponge: parasitarier, Plaut. Stich. 4, 2, 54 : parasitando pascere ventres suos, id. Pers. 1, 2, 3


That is why if you insist on REAL INSTRUMENTS you rest your faith on a word which could mean PULLING the strings of a harp or the HAIRS out of the head of the enemy or TWANGING him to death with a SINGING arrow.


Paul spoke of the singing (ado) word only in the context of a teaching practice. If you use performance music you can have no intention of teaching and admonishing but of entertaining people. Singing is not the legalisti ACT but singing was the common way to teaching God's Word.


My best resource says that it was not until the year 1878 that ANYONE attempted to justify instrumental music by the word Psallo. The Greek language has other words for MUSIC and Paul did not use one of them. Furthermore the CLANGING word Paul used was the instrument of warfare or the sorcerers:


> blituri , to, TWANG of a harp-string: hence of a MEANINGLESS SOUND, S.E.M.8.133, D.L.7.57, Artem.4.2, Gal.8.662. Perseus

> klang-ê , hê, metapl. dat. klangi Ibyc.56 : ( [klazô] ):--any sharp sound, e.g. twang of the bow, Il.1.49; scream of birds, esp. cranes,


----to which are compared CONFUSED cries of a throng,
----grunting of SWINE,
----howling of WOLVES and LIONS, h.Hom.14.4, cf. 27.8;
----hissing of SERPENTS, Pi.Dith.2.18 (pl.), A.Th.381 (pl.);
----baying of DOGS, X.Cyn.4.5, etc.;
----also, of MUSICAL INSTRUMENTS, Telest.4, Mnesim.4.57 (anap.); of song, S.Tr.208 (lyr.); k. aêdoneios (leg. -onios) Nicom. Trag.1; k. dusphatos, of Cassandra's prophecies, A.Ag.1152 (lyr.);
----of the scream of the HARPIES, A.R.2.269. Perseus

> klangê (klazô): scream, properly of BIRDS, Od. 11.605; of animals,
----as the squealing of PIGS, Od. 14.412;
----and of the loud cry of WARRIORS, Il. 2.100;
----the sharp TWANG of a BOWSTRING, Il. 1.49. Perseus

MUSICAL TERMS and instruments were associated with the male and female prostituted who SERVED at the pagan religious festivals. They were called PARASITES because they provided none of the useful services of preaching or singing the Words of Christ.

I can go on and on but you cannot find a historical reference which sees MUSIC in the Bible: the Catholic Encyclopedia which should know confesses that music was common to ALL PAGAN CULTS and was therefore adopted to attract the pagans.

You must understand that the CHANGE AGENTS have been CHANGED by their efforts so that they CANNOT hear the Spirit again. The postmodern view or B.M. (Before Me) holds that ALL TRUTH has been declared to be UNGODLY TRASH and you must trust ME (for an ungodly price) to fix the problems which I CREATED (for an UNGODLY WAGE). When you diminish the Word you diminish Christ (full deity) because you believe that HE is sitting on the chair while the hallucinated Holy Spirit Person can "be heard audibly speaking to you guiding you into all the truth." Believe such lies and you are already damned beyond redemption.

Ke

Arnobius BLISTERS the professional artisans who pretend to have DIVINE SKILLS:

http://www.piney.com/FathArnobHeresII.html

38. For, to begin with what is important, what advantage is it to the world that the mightiest kings are here? What, that there are tyrants , lords, and other innumerable and very illustrious powers ? What, that there are generals of the greatest experience in war, skilled in taking cities; soldiers steady and utterly invincible in battles of cavalry, or in fighting hand to hand on foot?
....What, that there are ORATORS , grammarians, POETS, writers, logicians, MUSICIANS , ballet-dancers, mimics , ACTORS, SINGERS , trumpeters , FLUTE and reed players?
What, that there are runners , boxers, charioteers, vaulters, walkers on stilts, rope-dancers , jugglers ?
....What, that there are dealers in salt fish, salters, fishmongers, perfumers, goldsmiths , bird-catchers, weavers of winnowing fans and baskets of rushes?
What, that there are fullers, workers in wool, embroiderers, cooks, confectioners, dealers in mules, pimps , butchers, harlots ?
....What , that there are other kinds of dealers?

Did He send SOULS hither for this reason, that they which had been but now sincere and of blameless virtue should learn as men to FEIGN, to DISSEMBLE , to lie, to CHEAT, to DECEIVE , to ENTRAP with a FLATTERER'S abjectness ;
....to conceal one thing in the heart,
....express another in the countenance;
....to ensnare, to BEGUILE the IGNORANT with CRAFTY devices , to seek out POISONS by means of numberless arts suggested by bad feelings, and to be fashioned with deceitful CHANGEABLENESS to suit circumstances?

....Was it for this He sent souls, that, living till then in CALM and undisturbed TRANQUILITY, they might find in their bodies causes by which to become fierce and savage, cherish hatred and enmity, MAKE WAR upon each other , subdue and OVERTHROW states; load themselves with, and give themselves up to the yoke of slavery; and finally, be PUT THE ONE in the other's power, having changed the condition in which they were born?

The poisoners in the book of Revelation were the SORCERERS. Circe who IMPOSED her name on the CHURCH used real poisons administered with MAGICAL SONGS and INSTRUMENTAL MUSIC. The CRAFTSMEN were the TECHNE wo were the HERMENEUTS, RHETORICIANS, SOPHISTS, SINGERS, MUSICIANS, FLUTE-GIRS OR PROSTITUTES and all of the CRAFT YOU ARE "laying by in store" to support. That is why they belonged to the SECT of the Hypocrites and were known as SPONGERS OR parasites. They all show up in the DEMISE of the holy whore in Revelation 18. MOST organized CHURCHES who honor CIRCE the whore will go back into hell with her, here MUSES (locusts), craftsmen, instrumentalists and GRINDERS (concubines-prostitutes). The MUSES of the END-TIME PROSTITUTE CHURCH are:

Mousa 1 [*maô]
....I. the MUSES, in pl. the MUSES, goddesses of SONG, music, poetry, dancing, the DRAMA, and all fine ARTS, Hom.: the names of the nine were Clio, Euterpe, Thalia, Melpomene, Terpsichore, Erato, Polymnia or Polyhymnia, Urania, and Calliope, Hes.,
....II. mousa, as appellat., music, song, Pind., Trag.:--also ELOQUENCE, Eur.:--in pl. ARTS, accomplishments, Ar., Plat.

The MUSES were turned into LOCUSTS to be resurrected by APOLLO who is Abaddon or Apollyon: the father of musical harmony, twanging bows to send 'singing' arrows, liars and THIEVES. The Muses in legend failed to honor the MOTHER GODDESS and were turned into locusts or "musical performers." When resurrected their goal to to focus worship on a form of SATAN and to worship of THE MOTHER OF THE GODS. The performers are:

mousôidos , on, ( [ôidê] ) SINGING, making MUSIC, Man.5.143.

Peter OUTLAWED private interpretation or FURTHER EXPOUNDERS because it DENIED that Christ could speak for God, and IF you permit them you DELIBERATELY open yourself up to the MAJORITY who are FALSE PROPHETS. This is why you PAY blind guides to lead you and you will DESERVE just what you get. Paul told the Corinthians that FOOLS LOVE TO BEE FOOLED. That is the REAL REASON for the PURCHASE of a MUSICAL WORSHIP LEADER.

....And the voice of HARPERS, and musicians (MUSES), and of PIPERS, and TRUMPETERS, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no CRAFTSMEN (Rhetoricians, sophists, hypocrites, PARASITES), of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a MILSTONE shall be heard no more at all in thee; REV 18:22

hupobol-eus , eôs, ho, ( [hupoballô] ) SUGGESTER, reminder (v. hupobolê 1.3 ), Ph.1.591; in a THEATER, prompter, Plu.2.813f.
....2. INTERPRETER, Eust.106.12.
....I. = hupagôgeus 11, Theo Sm.p.71 H.

huperlian , Adv. beyond measure, exceedingly, sophos Eust.1396.42; to hu. Id.1184.18 ; hoi hu. apostoloi the SUPER-APOSTLES , 2 Ep.Cor. 11.5, 12.11.

Paul set the PATTERNISM that "if he will not work neither shall he eat." He was speaking of the MANY ARTISANS trying to EXTORT the living of the POOR in "tithes and offerings." Paul set HIMSELF as the SPIRITUAL pattern without which the Gospel is brought into REPROACH. Therefore to DISQUALIFY the "many" in Corinth, he used his GOING OUT AND SUFFERING as the PATTERNISM for a TRUE evangelists: If he DOESN'T GO he is a fraud." To further disqualify the CHRISTIAN religious work he identified himself as a ROBBER for having taken voluntary help even from his friends--but NEVER from a church "Poor Box.." The SOPHISTS blackened the name of ALL teachers by taking pay from the TAUGHT. Rather, they all, like ALL PRIESTS, had their own VOCATION and taught for FREE when he could. Otherwise, NO CRAFTSMAN OR "STAFF INFECTION" HAS ANY CREDIBILITY and that is why the church CEASED growing.

sophos

.....I. properly, skilled in any HANDICRAFT or art, cunning in his craft, Theogn., etc; of a charioteer, Pind.; of POETS and MUSICIANS, id=Pind.; of a SOOTHSAYER, Soph., etc.

.....2. clever in matters of common life, wise, prudent, SHREWD, s. andres Thessaloi shrewd fellows, the Thessalians! Hdt.; polla sophos Aesch.; meizô sophian sophos Plat., etc.; tôn sophôn kreissô better than all CRAFT, Soph.; sophon [esti] c. inf., Eur.

ophis-teia, sophistry, mantikê, of BALAAM, mantikê means divination, SOOTHSAYER (The SERPENT in the garden was the MUSICAL ENCHANTER)

....Playto, Cratylus says "the part of appropriative, COERCIVE, hunting art which hunts animals, land animals, tame animals, MAN, privately, FOR PAY is paid in cash, claims to give education, and is a HUNT after rich and promising YOUTHS, must--so our present argument concludes--be called sophistry. Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon

Nimrod was a hunter AGAINST God. He had his own Musical Worship Team to help him. The WOMEN PROPHESIERS or prophetis "singers" in Ezekiel HUNTED SOULS. And to make them POLLUTED in the eyes of God THEY CHARGED FOR IT.

Rhetoricians or Sophists are the OPHIS or fascinating SERPENTS in the book of Revelation. They are speakers and you CANNOT remove your eyes from their ANTICS and BUFFOONERY. But they SPIT poison in youre EYES to blind you to the FREE WORD. The connection with BAALIM and the OPHIS means that those whom you SUPPORT as they replace the POOR and DESTITUTE are the END-TIME enemies of you, the Word and of God.

Buddy bonding DRIVES AWAY the spiritual church owners and SEEKS or hunts YOUNG MEN and others and therefore HUNT SOULS with the INTENT of putting them unter the SOOTHSAYER'S bondage. This is the SECT of the HYPOCRITES defined by Jesus and PAUL confirmed the GREEK meanins when he defines them as ROBBERS or PARASITES.

Ken Sublett

The GREEK world as well as the Jewish understood "rhetoricians, sophists (sOPHISts or serpents), singers, musicians and craftsmen as of the SECT of the HYPOCRITES along with the Pharisee SECT and the Scribe SECT. The are the SORCERERS of the Book of Revelation and they WERE ALL known as PARASITES. Parasites were the priests helpers in sheding life, blood, guts, dung and burning flesh in temples. They are DOUBLY HYPOCRITES after Jesus Christ was likewise MUSICALLY MOCKED at His trial and death. Flute-girls and singers were prostitutes and were regulated by the same officials who regulated the DUNG HEEP. Musicians and performance preachers were PROSTITUTES because they "saw Godliness as a means of financial gain."

THERE IS NO EXCEPTION in the church Fathers or scholars and founders of denominations: performing preachers and musicians were REPUDIATED because you cannot SELL the Word without being a LEGALIST.

Clement of Alexandria born AD 150, , Athens died , between 211 and 215;

http://www.piney.com/FathClStromataI.html

But the husbandry is twofold,-the one unwritten, and the other written. And in whatever way the Lord's labourer SOW the good wheat, and grow and REAP the ears, he shall appear a truly divine husbandman.

...."Labour," says the Lord, "NOT for the meat which perisheth, but for that which endureth to everlasting life." [John vi. 27.] And nutriment is received both by bread and by words.

And truly "blessed are the PEACE-makers," [Matt. v. 9.] who instructing those who are at war in their life and errors here, lead them back to the PEACE which is in the WORD, and nourish for the life which is according to God, by the distribution of the bread, those "that hunger after righteousness."
....For each soul has its own proper nutriment; some growing by knowledge and science, and others feeding on the Hellenic philosophy, the whole of which, like nuts, is not eatable.

"And he that planteth and he that watereth," "being ministers" of Him "that gives the increase, are one" in the ministry. "But every one shall receive his own reward, according to his own work.
....For we are God's husbandmen, God's husbandry. Ye are God's building," [1 Cor. iii. 8, 9] according to the apostle.

..Wherefore the hearers are not permitted to apply the test of comparison.
....Nor is the word, given for investigation, to be committed to those who have been reared in the ARTS of all kinds of WORDS, (rhetoricians, sophists, singers, musicians known as sorcerers and there fore PARASITES.)
....and in the power of INFLATED attempts at proof; whose minds are already PRE-occupied, and have not been previously EMPTIED.

..But whoever chooses to banquet on faith, is stedfast for the reception of the divine words, having acquired already FAITH as a POWER of judging, according to reason. Hence ensues to him persuasion in abundance.
....And this was the meaning of that saying of prophecy, "If ye believe not, neither shall ye understand." [ Isa. vii. 9.]

.."As, then, we have opportunity, let us do good to all, especially to the household of faith." [Gal. vi. 10.]
....And let EACH of these, according to the blessed David, sing, giving thanks. "Thou shalt sprinkle me with hyssop, and I shall be cleansed. Thou shalt wash me, and I shall be whiter than the snow. Thou shalt make me to hear gladness and joy, and the bones which have been humbled shall rejoice.
......Turn Thy face from my sins. Blot out mine iniquities. Create in me a CLEAN HEART, O God,
........and renew a RIGHT spirit in my inward parts. Cast me not away from Thy face,
........and take not Thy Holy Spirit from me. Restore to me the joy of Thy salvation, and establish me with Thy PRINCELY spirit." [Ps. li. 7-12.]

....Then I will teach transgressors your ways, and sinners will turn back to you. Psa 51:13

"He who addresses those who are present before him, both tests them by time, and judges by his judgment, and from the others distinguishes him who can hear; watching the words, the manners, the habits, the life, the motions, the attitudes, the look, the voice; the road, the rock, the beaten path, the fruitful land, the wooded region, the fertile and fair and cultivated spot, that is able to multiply the seed.
..But he that speaks through books, consecrates himself before God, CRYING in writing thus:
....Not for GAIN, not for VAINGLORY, not to be vanquished by partiality, nor enslaved by fear nor ELATED by PLEASURE;
....but only to reap the SALVATION of those who READ,
........which he does not at present participate in, but awaiting in expectation the recompense which will certainly be rendered by Him, who has promised to bestow on the labourers the reward that is meet.

..But he who is ENROLLED in the number of men [Ps. li. 7-12.] OUGHT NOT to desire RECOMPENSE.
....For he that VAUNTS his good services, receives GLORY as his REWARD.
....And he who does any duty for the sake of RECOMPENSE, is he not HELD FAST in the custom of the WORLD,
........either as one who has done well, hastening to receive a REWARD, or as an evil-doer AVOIDING retribution?

..We must, as far as we can, IMITATE the Lord. I And he will do so, who complies with the will of God,
....receiving FREELY, giving freely, and receiving as a worthy reward the citizenship itself.
........"The hire of an harlot shall not come into the SANCTUARY," it is said: accordingly it was forbidden to bring to the altar the price of a dog. (male prostitute)

Of the king of Tyre as a type of Lucifer who "came equiped" with musical instruments and was in the garden wholly seducing Eve,
..And it shall come to pass in that day, that Tyre shall be forgotten seventy years, according to the days of one king: after the end of seventy years shall Tyre sing as an harlot. Is.23:15
...."Take an harp, go about the city, thou harlot that hast been forgotten; make sweet melody, sing many songs, that thou mayest be remembered. Isa 23:16

..And it shall come to pass after the end of seventy years, that the Lord will visit Tyre,
....and she shall turn to her hire,
....and shall commit fornication with all the KINGDOMS of the WORLD upon the face of the earth. Isa 23:17

Ken Sublett

I have been a member at West End my entire life. I have seen a lot of changes and a lot of turmoil. My comment is until you know clearly what is going on don't criticize us.
I will admit West End has had its problems over the past several years. Actually our turmoil and problems started when Jim Bill retired over 15 years ago. Since then, it seems to have gone in waves or cycles. We will have periods of conflict and then periods where everything settles down. I will admit I don't agree with everything that has been decided by our elders or ministers. There have been times that I have been close to leaving (my parents left three years ago). I just can't go yet, because there are many good works and people who are working toward the Truth and serving God. We have had many faithful Christians and strong workers for the Lord leave over the past few years. It is interesting however, that these people have become members at both very progressive congregations and very conservative congregations in Nashville. West End has been riding a fence and trying to decide what to do, which has been killing it. Our new pulpit and youth ministers have brought positive changes and a renewed energy at West End. Definitely answers to many prayers.
Our biggest problem is not praise teams or small groups or entertainment. Those are only symptoms. Our biggest problem is a divided eldership, that masquerades itself as being unanimous and is not forth coming, honest, or open with its members. How can congregation grow and bless others when its leadership can't see eye to eye and its membership has no idea what is going on. They say we have no right to know and to some degree they are right. They accuse us of gossiping if we try to figure it out. But we are just looking for answers and the truth. Otherwise we feel lied to and don't trust our elders. It is a battle we have long been fighting but things are getting better.

As for the praise team, I admit I'm not a fan and wish we didn't have one. But there is nothing unscriptual about it. I can not pull out my Bible and find one scripture saying Thou shall not have a praise team or anything akin to it. I do think they hurt worship instead of help it, but that is a preference not scripture. Praise teams are not a salvation issue. They are merely a worship preference. Our praise is not upfront on the stage in an entertaining manner. They sit admist the audience with microphones. The women are not usurping anyone's authority. I will say that West End's praise team is not anything new. We have been trying to have one for the past five or six years. It is interesting however, the amount of problems that they have had with it, from sound equipment failure to a lack of finding anyone to consistently be on it or lead it. It has only really taken off in the last six months, but the leader has recently moved to Florida. I don't know if we will have the singers to keep it around.

For all its problems, I think West End is heading in a positive direction. God has not abandoned West End and the prayers of the faithful. We still have many problems to overcome and battles to fight, but we will not give up.

No, it doesn't say "do NOT have a praise team" and it doesn't say "do not have coke and chips for the Lord's Supper" but it does say what we SHOULD do.

OK, so we don't have coke and chips for the Communion. Then, LIKE THE ORIGINAL, lets have a full passover meal for communion. The original "Lord's Supper" WAS a passover meal. The Bible mentions the 3rd cup which was the cup of redemption it does not mention the other 4 cups, BUT they partook of them on that night. Also, the bread that they partook of was probably the 3rd piece of bread. You see it was broken into 3 pieces at the beginning of the meal (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) and the Son is the middle piece, which they ate. Pretty Cool, huh?

Anyway, if we cannot have praise teams because the Bible does not mention it and we can only DO STUFF the Bible does mention, then lets go the whole way and ONLY DO STUFF the way the Bible SPECIFICALLY says to. YOU CANNOT HAVE IT BOTH WAYS AND DO THINGS YOU CHOOSE TO DO THE WAY YOU WANT TO AND TELL OTHERS "NO,YOU CANNOT DO IT THAT WAY".

So, Let's all meet in the synagogue of your choosing or in someones home, lets live communally sharing our earnings and all our possessions and giving MOST of that away from the very beginning. Let's not pay any preachers or have ANY church buildings. Let's gather together MORE than we do and remember communion EACH AND EVERY time we get together, not just on Sundays. Let's LOVE EACH OTHER UNCONDITIONALLY!

Can we do all that??? Yes, we can, but WOULD we? You cannot have it both ways. If you choose to live BY THE LETTER OF THE LAW the way the pharasees did, then more power to you (reference the above) OR you can depend on God's Grace... I choose the latter.

Been sipping out of that new WINESKIN, huh?

While doing Fish and Chips you made a slip.

Jesus spoke UNDER THE LAW and contrary to the very meaning of the JUBILEE as a repudiation of the finished work of Lord Jesus Christ (full Deity), He also fulfilled the Passover. If you observe the "passover" you deliberately put yourself on the side of Egypt as the model of SIN and musical idolatry. You put yourself on the FAR side of the waters of baptism and the gift of the Spirit.

1Co.5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

We remember Christ as the SPIRITUAL PASSOVER, the Lamb of God and not the blood used to redeem the Israelites when God's better judgment decided that they should remain in their sin.

Paul took this BEFORE HIS DEATH beginning of the Lord's Supper to its completeness. They met EVERY FIRST day of the week and the fact that the Corinthians DID NOT meet for the Lord's Supper (not Passover) proves that they SHOULD Have met for that purpose.

Paul does not speak in terms of the Passover because that would repudiate the fact that the Lord's Supper was to remember Jesus Christ and not physical lambs. Furthermore, Paul said that we SHOW FORTH or preach the death of Christ.

I don't believe there is ANY GRACE to those who repudiate the direct commands of the Bible.

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

Titus 2:12 TEACHING us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

How is GRACE going to cover your sins which GRACE taught you not to do??

The Pharisees deliberately ignored the Written Words of Christ the Spirit (1 peter 1:11) SO THAT they could folow their own COMMANDMENTS OF MEN. Jesus said that following the traditions of men made WORSHIP VAIN. So, the Pharisees belittle the inspired Word of Christ.

Musical worship teams makes VAIN WORSHIP because it ignores the clear teaching of Scripture which Jesus connected to the perverted MOUTH religion of the Jews.

Jesus quotes the statement in both Isaiah and Ezekiel 33 where God defined the Jews as looking for a beautiful voice and well played musical instruments: they were treating both God and Ezekiel as homosexual, musical performers. Jesus used this PATTERN to describe the Pharisees.

No one including Jesus ever CONDEMNED anyone for obeying the Revealed Word. Pharisees could care less as long as their long prayer performance gave them the chance to "steal the homes of widows."

THERE IS NO GRACE for anyone RESTING on Grace to forgive deliberate sins. Grace is NOT UNLIMITED FORGIVEMENT FOR UNLIMITED SINS. Grace is the POWER (Charisma) of God which ENABLES you to conform to His image and His Words. Dismiss the Word then kiss GRACE goodby: Jesus is not a performance preacher or a "musical praiser's" playmate of the week.

If you are part of a "praise team" then by returning to the olden days your "team members" will be prostitutes and sodomites: Yep, right there piping trying to get Jesus into the groove. The GYMNASIUM and the musical, homosexual worship of Zeus-Dionysus the homosexual god of the NEW WINE IN NEW WINESKINS was the Abomination of Desolation standing in the Holy Places claiming to be GOD by claiming to musically "lead you into God's presence."

The end time Abomination of Desolation will be the same musicians or MUSES or a 9 member team under Apollo, Abaddon or Apollyon. He is also Saturn worshiped and condemned by Amos 5 and 6. His/her Chaldee number is 666. I just have to believe that Apollo has turned his LOCUSTS loose. They are Apollo's musical performers:

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Of musical heresy Clement notes what John may have warned against:

"The Locrian breaks a string. The grasshopper sprang on the neck of the instrument, and sang on it as on a branch; and the MINSTREL, adapting his strain to the grasshopper's song, made up for the want of the missing string. The grasshopper then was attracted by the song of Eunomos, as the fable represents, according to which also a brazen statue of Eunomos with his lyre, and the Locrian's ally in the contest, was erected at Pytho.

But of its own accord it flew to the LYRE, and of its own accord SANG, and was regarded by the Greeks as a musical PERFORMER.

But the dramas and the raving poets, now quite intoxicated, let us crown with ivy; and distracted outright as they are, in Bacchic fashion, with the SATYRS, and the frenzied RABBLE, and the rest of the DEMON crew, let us confine to Cithaeron and Helicon, now antiquated.
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The locusts or grasshoppers DON'T EAT GRASS: they SEPARATE those MARKED by music from those MARKED by the word or Spirit of Christ. If you sing and clap along you are, in the Hebrew, "driving a tent peg" into the head of Jesus Christ. That is the STING OF DEATH.

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Here is where it all began with a ZOE character:

Inanna bragged after stealing the gifts from EA or Satan type:

He gave me the art of lovemaking.
He gave me the art of kissing the phallus.
He gave me the art of prostitution.
He gave me the resounding musical instrument.
He gave me the art of song.
He gave me the art of the elder.
He gave me the kindling of strife

http://www.piney.com/BabEaGifts.htm

She is the end-time musical harlot of Revelation 18. She is EVE which Paul warned the women about. Eve is ZOE in the Greek translation. Eve was wholly seduced (sexually) by the serpent whose name identifies him/her as Lucifer, the harp-playing prostitute: the Musical Enchanter. Eve or ZOE then easily led Adam into the same seduction. Better be quiet Christian women because of we Adams you CANNOT be visible and "performance" audible without exercising SEXUAL AUTHORITY over us. Woe to the women who are USED by men to SEDUCE people to help pay the bills!

COMMERCE as well as musical performers is one of the MARKS of the end time Prostitute worship.

That is what PAUL knew that YOU don't know when he OUTLAWED both "music" and women exercising "authority" which is the Greek authentia which is "both erotic and murderous." Check the content of the EROTIC praise songs trying to make love to a Holy God. There is NO GRACE to cover you for deliberate sin and recommending it to others.

Gag! Gag!

Peter told Ananias and Sapphira that the property BELONGED TO THEM and there was no mandatory "communal living." Wrong fish shop.

Kenneth Sublett

Ken,

First of all let me just say that what ever drugs you were on when you wrote your treatise on this site, don't do that any more. Second of all let me say that you are misquoting scripture and using the books of first and second oppinions for your arguments. Last I will just say you really need to learn how to read the bible for yourself and get away from these neo-nazi's who feed you this crap.

First of all, Jesus did not institute the Passover and did not command observance of it. He did command, "this do in remembrance of me", when He offered the unleavened bread and the fruit of the vine. This activity and subsequent command did take place during the 3rd cup, of four, of the Passover meal; however, Jesus did NOT command observance of the Passover.

Secondly, where does our authority come from? Does Biblical silence authorize any activity? Did God have to specifically exclude the other 11 tribes when He commanded that the priests be Levites? Look up Hebrews 7:14, where it says that Moses said NOTHING concerning the tribe of Jesus being priests. Why did God kill Nadab and Abihu, during the act of worship, when they offered "strange fire" - that which the Lord did not command. Look at Leviticus 10:1, this was not a violation of a "thou shalt not" - it was an addition to an existing command. Paul wrote to the Corinthians in his first letter, "...that in us you may learn not to exceed what is written, in order that no one of you might become arrogant...", Chapter 4:6. If Biblical silence is permissive, there is no end as to what can be taught and practiced. Would this be consistent with the Scriptures? I think not.

Finally, who is trying to have it both ways? Whose authority are we going to follow? For it to be God's, it must be provided to us: "and whatever you do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus". We can sincerely look up to heaven and say, "I'm doing this for you, Lord"; however, that is not how we can assume authority. Jesus said, "not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven; but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven." Who is exhibiting the attitude of the Pharisee, here? The Pharisees were arrogant because they substituted their wisdom for God's, practiced showy piousness for self glorification, and bound traditions of men as commandments of God. My friend, God's grace comes with the responsibility, on our part, to live obediently to His rules - not ours. Christ's resurrection is the power through which we have received God's grace; however, it is conditional upon our obedience.

Mark Waggoner

Dear Brother Mark
Your comment about the Lord's supper being a Passover meal needs to be restudied. The timing was not right for it to be their Passover meal. I admit it is a small thing but it seem that litte lies grow into mustard plants. Email me if I can be of asistance.

To God be the Glory
Joe McKnight

Joe

I did NOT state and do NOT advocate that the Lord's Supper WAS a Passover meal; however, the Lord did institute it during the Passover meal that He observed with His disciples prior to His arrest.

As for the timing thing, yes we can get into quite a discussion here. Without going into a huge amount of detail, my opinion is that Christ observed the Passover earlier than the priests declared. There was much disagreement between the Jews as to when it needed to be observed. I believe that this meal occurred on our "Wednesday" and that Christ was crucified on Thursday, not Friday as tradition holds. The Jews would not enter the Praetorium when Jesus was before Pilate because they would be defiled and would not be able to eat the Passover (had not yet occurred), according to John 18:28. The Friday was the Passover, the "High Day" recorded by John 19:31, and was the day after the crucifixion. This would also provide the "three days and three nights" that Christ spent in the tomb (Matthew 12:40). Sabbath means "Holy Day", not necessarily "Saturday" as we sometimes assume. Every "Saturday" was a Sabbath; however, not every Sabbath was a "Saturday". The ancient Hebrew calendar has two years between AD 30 and AD 34 where the Passover did occur on a Friday, I'm sorry I can't remember which two years those were.

I apologize if my prior statements caused any confusion because there is a definite separation between the Passover and the Lord's Supper - even though the Lord's Supper was instituted during the Passover. I was merely attempting to refute an earlier comment relating to the authority, or lack thereof, of "praise teams" and keeping the Passover today. The 3rd cup of the Passover had nothing to do with unleavened bread as that was when the lamb was eaten. This cup, taken at the end of the meal, was also referred to as the "Cup of Blessing" - a phrase used by Paul to describe the Lord's Supper in I Corinthians 10:16.

Mark Waggoner

Joe,

your statement is only half correct. Fact is that Matthew and Luke do say that the Last Supper was the passover meal, but John has it a couple of days before the passover. So do you exclude the books of Matthew and Luke to make John the only correct gospel, and if you do that does that mean that we can't really trust anything the bible has to say?

Perhaps the authors wrote the way they did to make a point. John has the Last supper before the passover because Jesus is going to die on the day of preparation. This is the day that the lambs were slaughtered for passover. At the beginning of the book John has John the Baptist call out "Behold the Lamb of God" in refering to Jesus. In Chapter 6 Jesus gets into a discourse about eating his flesh and drinking his blood and if you pay attention to that section you see that this was about passover time. The point is that John wants us to see Jesus as the passover lamb.

Matthew and Luke had different objectives though and so they have Jesus eating the passover with his disciples before his death.

It is also possible that Matthew and Luke see Jesus eating the passover with them because of the Galilean calendar had passover a couple of days earlier than the Judean calendar or vis-a-versa.

I guess the fact that the Gospels place the meal in the context of the Passover is inconsequential!!

I believe that history shows that Jesus instituted the Lord's Supper in the midst of the Passover. However, the Passover had to do with slaying the Lamb. It seems that bread and wine--very intoxicating--was added in Babylon. This is important because if you assume that you know nothing you discover many of the seemingly FACTUAL acts of Jesus were acted parables and they all repudiated rituals added during the captivity.

The traditional record of the Jews is that they poured FOUR cups of intoxicating (Babylon influence) wine so that everyone was to repeat Esther's event of getting the enemy drunk. However, they POURED but no one drank the fifth, unfermented cup. This cup was called the Cup of Elijah because it was to anticipate John the Baptist as the herald of redemption. For that reason he drank no intoxicants.

----"One may pour a fifth cup and recite the Great Hallel over it, i.e., from "Praise God, for He is good,"until "By the waters of Babylon." They poured the unfermented wine, recited Psalm 137 (we hung up our harps) and then poured the wine back.

When Jesus initiated the Lord's Supper this fulfilled the long-held belief about the fifth cup. The word SOP used only at this time was a sign to Judas who was prophesied to TRIUMPH OVER Jesus. The Judas Bag was for carrying the mouthpieces of wind instruments. Therefore, the SOP related to MELODY which is related to grinding the enemy into a fine powder sent Judas out.

While Jesus is our Passover, Paul's discussion of it in Corinth includes examining ourselves. In the Passover the candles were lit and they searched their houses for any hint of leaven. The Lord's Supper is to show forth or preach the DEATH of Christ. Therefore, there are certainly similarities but one should never remember the Passover Lambs in Egypt but the Spiritual Lamb which has fulfilled the type. The CUP singular is the fifth cup and not the four cups which caused everyone--even children to get drunk.

I have reviewed an e-mail which suggests that the bread and wine Passover was not commanded, the Jews observed the Passover and therefore we have LIBERTY to add things like instrumental music. In the following link I have tried to show some of the evidence that the Jew's form of the Passover was not commanded, was picked up in Babylon and Jesus repudiated the 4 cups to get drunk during Passover and used the fifth cup to institute the Lord's Supper.

http://www.piney.com/Maxey-Silence-Passover.html

As a fulfilled type the Lord's Supper is a more of spiritual anti-type. It seems to me that by rejecting the Babylon-induced Passover Jesus returned to the original where He as the true Lamb of God shed His Blood for out sins. We are therefore to remember His DEATH and deny any rational to sing and clap while showing forth or preaching His Death.

--"And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground. Luke 22:44

--Agonia (g74) ag-o-nee'-ah; from 73; a struggle (prop. the state), i.e. (fig.) anguish: - agony.

When Jesus comes to the church it is a MARK when we make it look like the drunken Passover in Babylon where Esther refused to drink.

---Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise (hymn) unto thee. Heb 2:12

Declare in Greek is:

--Apagello (g518) ap-ang-el'-lo; from 575 and the base of 32; to announce: - bring word (again), declare, report, shew (again), tell.

----Aggelos (g32) ang'-el-os; from aggello, [prob. der. from 71; comp. 34] (to bring tidings); a messenger; esp. an "angel"; by impl. a pastor: - angel, messenger

Sing is not MUSIC.

----Apalgeo (g524) ap-alg-eh'-o; from 575 and algeo (to smart); to grieve out, i.e. become apathetic: - be past feeling

Because Paul spoke of GIVING HEED to the Word as the fundamental meaning of "worship," he also put the focus on observing the Lord's Supper. Teaching and Admonishing one another means that if we IDENTIFY WITH Jesus and appreciate His death we can answer "Yes" when He asks: "Could you not tarry with me for one hour?"

The Jews in Egypt were covered by the Blood and it is doubtful if they sang, clapped, whistled or moved around while the Death Angel was in the land.

As the observer of the Passover examined his/her house, the Lord's Supper demands that we examine ourselves which is the "house" or dwelling place of God in the spirit.

--1 Cor 11:28 But let a man examine HIMSELF, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.

-----1 Cor 11:29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh DAMNATION to himself, not discerning the Lords body.

Unworthily means IRREVERENTLY. Discerning means to "withdraw or separate thoroughly." What shall we do with those who want to MAKE MUSIC during this time? The claim is that a well performed Lord's Supper will make people want to LOOK LIKE US.

--Heb 12:28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with REVERENCE and godly fear:

----Heb 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.

I think that we should separate ourselves into our own "tabernacles" and not join in the musical games. People competent to become disciples simply do not do their musical games when a loved one is dying.

If we do not observe the communion with Christ's DEATH as our focus we should know that GRACE has not changed: God from being A CONSUMING FIRE.

Ken Sublett

OK so if you even read your bible then you do know it doesn't say we can't and as you pointed out it does tell us what to do. So show me the part about having a full time paid minister, a youth minister, a songleader (that's just one person), or dare I even say it a building. So unless you are worshiping in a home church or renting out a facility, everyone takes a turn starting the singing, and there is no paid minister at your church and never has been spare us the hipocracy.

Go back and read your comments and you will discover that whether standing or sitting the PRAISE TEAM is consuming an awful (awesome) amount of the GIVING HEED.

Remember that not in the entire Bible is the MUSIC word used of worship. The Qahal or assembly in Hebrew is translated as Ekklesia in the Greek version. The Qahal was the synagogue or "church in the wilderness."

God authorized TWO (2) Silver Trumpets to be used to signal tribal movements or to give battle movements. The word TRIUMPH or ALARM includes either blowing instruments and "making a joyful noise before the Lord." This was NOT worship but boasting to try to panic the enemy into cowardice.

God through Moses said that they could BLOW the trumpets when assembling the Qahal or synagogue which NEVER met except for instructing all of the tribes or their elder- leaders. This would be like a church bell.

Numbers 10:7 specificially says that they COULD NOT make these noises when the assembly was called.

The Israelite people NEVER worshiped with singing and music. Only the king, clergy and officials participated in the temple animal sacrifices. The loud "music" or sound during the BURNING PHASE was typical of the slaughter of Lord Jesus Christ in the New Testament.

NO singer and NO musician was ever allowed into the Holy Place as a carnal type of the church. The SINGERS roaming around the temple were PROSTITUTES and the MUSICIANS were SODOMITES.

The ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION in the Intertestament period was the worship of Zeus and or Dionysus with music. This is why the Jewish clergy PIPED trying to force Jesus to sing and dance the perverted temple ritual. A homosexual atmosphere dominated.

The word MUSIC is the Greek SUMPHONIA and it is used ONLY of secular occasions which included drinking and dancing. A similar word MUSICIANS is used of the Babylon Harlot worship in Revelation 18. "Music" is derived from the 9 MUSES used by Apollo (or Abaddon or Apollyon) to seduce people into his commercial Seeker- Center at Delphi. He/she is Satan or Lucifer or ZOE MARKED by singing, music and dancing.

The Bible NEVER even commands "singing" which was a seculular often perverted activity or "external melody" which speaks of grinding the enemy into panic much like the TRIUMPH OVER outlawed by God. Paul commanded that the PREACHING or TEACHING be a "one another" activity, the RESOURCE to be "that which is written, the spirit, or the Word of Christ." The singing and melody would be meditating just as David did with his psalms.

When the MUSICAL role takes the place of the TEACHING emphasis you will have noticed that they VIOLATE the direct command of Paul that the RESOURCE is ALL the inspired metrical (singable) Biblical text.

This means that you are GIVING HEED to the LEGALISTIC WORKS effort of the TEAM and you CANNOT at the same time GIVE HEED to Christ through His Word. This means that NO WORSHIP can take place. And indeed since the HIRED HANDS violate the entire Bible and church History you are PAYING for the "doctors of the Law" which Jesus said "take away the key to knowledge." Jesus fired them and so should you. Since you have not elders APT to do the preaching-teaching role Peter gave YOU the authority to TAKE THE OVERSIGHT and begin teaching the FAILED institution or help lead them to safety.

Music has always been (like the wineskin creed) the MARK of male or female prostitutes EVEN in the Bible. Don't do it! The only authority of the elders is TEACHING authority and your OBEDIENCE is to follow his instructions and "watch the outcome of his life." Therefore, whether standing or sitting the male and female "youngers" ARE usurping the authority of the elders. Sometimes the elders are not ignorant: they may just be cowards under subjection to the rulership of "women and children" or women and the "effeminate."

Ken Sublett

Well, I guess the church has been wrong for 1900 - 2000 years, and God has finally raised up a new prophet to enlighten us poor idiots who have been singing. Thank you so much for being able to interpret the scripture like no other person ever has. Come to think of it, even Jesus might have been in violation of the lack of a command regarding singing (as you obviously take Eph. 5:19 and Col. 3:16 to mean "meditating like David did") when he and the apostles sung a hymn and went out to the Mount of Olives (Matthew 26:30).

Kenneth, you give conservative members of the church of Christ a bad name. To those liberals on here let me say that this is one conservative person who flatly doesn't agree with all the change that's taking place and the division that has come over it. As I have said in other posts, I worship in a very conservative church. We have one songleader and preacher (of course Sublett apparently thinks that's not scriptural either). We have three elders and 5 deacons (no women deacons). We will never have a praise team or any other type of innovation. But, I don't know anyone in our congregation that would agree with this. When the Bible says sing, it means sing, unaccompanied, period, end of sentence. Sing does not mean meditate. And to think that singers are equal to prostitutes and homosexuals! How completely rediculous. Everyone, including Mr. Sublett, needs to study their Bibles. And you don't have to know Greek or Hebrew, or Latin, to know God's word. It's really quite simple. But Mr. Sublett, you are WRONG about singing, DEAD WRONG. And your attitude with some of the liberals on this site is rather disgusting. Start reading your Bible and quit reading so much on what others have said about the Bible, and for goodness' sake, leave the sex stuff alone. At the very least you sound like a broken record, and to some you sound like a sex-starved dirty old man. AS I've said in other posts (and I don't know whether this post will clear the moderator or not), I'm not mad at you, but you need to study, study, study the B-I-B-L-E, and leave yours and other men's think-so's out of it.

Thanks,

Jim

No way you can disconnect SEXUALITY and MUSIC because that is the UNIVERSAL connection. Lucifer brought both with HER after seducing the very angels.

It may offend you but neither of us can BREAK the record of the Bible and History. I won't quit until you wake up and recognize the Holy Whore prophesied almost at the end of God's Message to us. That is why they ALWAYS USED women in pagan religion: to fill up the collection plates. Unfortunately, my sword hits organic instruments (organum) as honestly as it hits mechanical instruments. Neither flapping WING has the slightest interest in having an EDUCATED body.

Thank you for your keen observation. You know, people come in two classes. First, is the priest sent to slaughter animals. To that they added singing and loud instruments (not music). The Levites are the MUSICAL MOCKERS fulfilled in the murder of Jesus with music treating him as BELIAR.

Next, the PROPHETS universally, 100% of the time repudiate the RELIGION of the temple because God had TURNED THEM OVER TO WORSHIP THE STARRY HOST. The temple and king were LIKE THE NATIONS to repudiate God and lead the people into captivity and death.

The PROPHETS were always cursed and thrown into deep mud holes up to their neck. Nevertheless, they NEVER CEASED associating Jewish singing and instruments with telling God: "We will not listen to your Word."

No, the church was not wrong for 2,000 years. The word sing or ODE was to chant because SINGING did not exist as YOU know it. Probably Alexander Campbell introduced "religious hymns" into the Restoration Movement because he had a song book to peddle. Musicologists recognize church "hymnology" as a product of the lost and ignorant frontier adopting VOODOO from the blacks also trying to find their way back to paganism. The same "music" left Africa and went to Babylon.

The Britannica notes that:

"Melody as 'tunefulness' belongs to the 19th century and depends on symmetries of harmony and rhythm which seldom occurs in music written before the 16th century...

That is why YOUR SING is NOT Paul's SING nor the SING of early church practices.

Matthew 26:29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Fathers kingdom.

Matthew 26:30 And when they had {sung} an HYMN, they went out into the mount of Olives.

A "hymn" is one of the forms of the Psalms. The Septuagint (LXX) clearly identifies which PSALMS are HYMNS.

The first "non-music" DIRECT COMMAND by Paul was:

For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our LEARNING, that we through patience and comfort of the SCRIPTURES might have hope. Romans 15:4

Now the God of patience and consolation grant you to be likeminded one toward another according to Christ Jesus: Romans 15:5

That ye may with ONE MIND and ONE MOUTH glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. Romans 15:6

In Ephesians 5 the commanded RESOURCES were Biblical or "that which was written" or the Spirit of Christ which is His Word (John 6:63), or The Word of Christ" in Col 3:16

That EXCLUDES self-composed "scripture" to be used in the assembly or "school of the Bible." Church councils were held to prohibit it before instruments became a problem.

Now, if I can say THUS SAITH THE LORD then I am prophesying to you. To keep from tiring the masses you can click here to grasp what no preacher I ever knew (outside of primitive Baptists and many presbyterians) knows a tittle about the Satanic role of music in the bible.

http://www.piney.com/Psalms-Hymns-Spiritual-Son.html

Hymns "was that part of the Hallel consisting of Psalms 113-118; where the verb itself is rendered 'to sing praises' or 'praise' Acts 16:25; Heb 2:12. The Psalms are called, in general, 'hymns,' by Philo; Josephus calls them 'songs and hymns.'" Vine on Humneo

----That is why SUNG was an added, redundant word. So there is no Sing or Sang or Sung in the passage.

"Philo uses humnos regularly for the OT Psalms."

http://www.piney.com/ MusPsallo1.html

There WAS NO SINGING as you grasp it and I don't need to be a prophet to tell you what the PROFITS hide from you:

"in music, intoned liturgical recitation of scriptural texts, guided by signs originally devised as textual accents, punctuations, and indications of emphasis.. Although first intended to clarify the reading of the texts." Jewish Liturgical Music. Singing in the Greek was the "natural intonation of the language.

---"Ritual music was at first only cantillation, i.e., recitative chanting, of the prose books of the Bible

---"Later the prayers and biblical poetry were CHANTED, presumably in a modal system similar to the ragas of Hindu music or the maqamat of Arab music, i.e., melodies with improvisations. Jewish Liturgical Music

THERE WAS NO PRAISE SERVICE IN THE SYNAGOGUE: INDEED IT WAS OUTLAWED IN THE QAHAL or CHURCH IN THE WILDERNESS and never occurred in the structured Synagogue.

In Islamic Worship:

--"Cantillation is also used in Islamic religious services in the recitation of the Qur'an and in the muezzin's call to prayer, or adhan.

---"Neither it nor the cantillation of the Qur'an are considered to be music, however, and music as such is forbidden in religious services.

I will direct you to the "infiltration and diverting" by the prostitutes and Sodomites around the temple in a smaller dose. The Levitical Panic Creators were not called MUSICIANS because music as such was the realm of innocent children or prostitutes or warriors. The Levitical "singers and players" performed the same NATIONAL exorcism while they were slaughtering tens of thousands of TYPES of Lord Jesus Christ also MOCKED with music by the same SINGERS AND MUSICIANS "Under the King and Commanders of the Army."

Everyone listened to the "prophesiers" which means to say "lord, lord" or "sing and play musical instruments." No one ever listened to the writing prophets. I don't expect most to listen and God has not given me the "god like" burden to be troubled by it. The gospel will not be preached for conversion but for a WITNESS.

The connection between singing and music beginning in the garden of Eden was Lucifer, the harp playing prostitute who sang beautiful songs. The Ancient Near Eastern Text identify the musical perversion against which Moses Warned. Singing and music is identified in the Bible with people treating God like a prostitute. All of the classical writings draw an identity between musicians and prostitutes. The church fathers agree. It is your task to prove that this is not the case and not to USE YOUR PENKNIFE on what I can prove. The fact that you should trust me is that I spend about 120 dollars a month to teach and do not see "godliness as a means of financial gain." Nothing Christian is for sale and nothing for sale is Christian: The Bible tells me so.

History is full of singing AND melody IN THE HEART or Spirit which is the only PLACE God looks for our worship. A Catholic expert notes:

"According to what has been said, it can be seen that the doctrine of the 'spiritual sacrifice' not only repudiated bloody sacrifices but also REJECTED MUSIC, particularly instrumental music, as a means of worshipping God. Although the 'spiritual sacrifice' was originally explained in terms of hymns of praise to God's goodness and majesty, its logical development eventually considered singing UNSUITABLE for divine worship." p. 54-55

Your SING is not Paul's SING and YOU don't write the inspired SCRIPTURE commanded to be EXCLUSIVELY in chanting or reciting the metrical BIBLE.

Sing praises to the LORD (singular), enthroned in Zion;
-----proclaim among the nations what he has done. Psalm 9:11
I remembered God, and was troubled: I complained, and my spirit was overwhelmed. Selah. Ps.77:3
-----I call (Mention, burn incense) to remembrance my song (h5058) in the night:
-----I commune with MY own HEART: and my SPIRIT made diligent search. Psalm 77:6
Sing UNTO HIM, sing psalms unto HIM:
----TALK ye of all his wondrous works. Ps.105:2

Whether your church knows it or not that is exactly what Paul said:

We SPEAK or PREACH or TEACH one another.
We sing (secular) AND make melody (compare SOP)
-----IN OUR HEART. IN THE HEART means IN THE HEART which means IN THE HEART and David agreed several times.

External HARMONY (not related to melody) is a frontal attack on the human SPIRIT. Jesus died to remove the burden laded by the clergy which is SPIRITUAL ANXIETY CREATED BY RELIGIOUS RITUAL.

Musical HARMONY creates a DRUG HIGH and you CANNOT give heed to Christ while giving heed to the MUSIC AND MUSICIANS. GIVE HEED is almost the UNIQUE "worship" word used by Paul. Diverting the mind from God's Word has always meant SPIRITUAL ADULTERY.

Please, never again, call me a CONSERVATIVE: I am a Christian which does not mean WORSHIPER but a DISCIPLE and both EXTREMES are just obverse sides of the same coin keeping up the sham battle to keey YOU from recognizing that "THE PEA IS UNDER NEITHER SHELL."

If you have more authority than my quoted scholars some of whom could have known John and SERMONIZED before Christ about music; or if a FREE document posted at a large human cost offends you while one slick willie sermonic exercise costing you a thousand bucks is honored then XCUZE ME I need to be busy with three people seeking an AUDIENCE with their pastor persons about SINGING or watching THE LION KING (Horus worship) while PRETENDING to remember the DEATH of Christ during the "Lord's Supper."

Ken Sublett

God's Word condemns calling that which is sacred, sinful. Singing is a holy, sacred and a very important part of our worship. My concern is not with whether we have "praise teams", but with those like Kenneth, who seem to have impure thoughts. Only one with impure thoughts would take the singing we do in worship and associate it with something sexual. Only one with impure thoughts would make frequent references to the phallus. If a "praise team" or just one "song leader" happens to be up front directing the singing, it makes one wonder just exactly where it is that Mr. Sublett's mind and eyes are focused. Are they on a holy, pure, righteous God? Or are they trying to figure out if the microphones used by the "praise team" are phallic symbols, or if such is apparant anywhere else.

After reading your post and living through a church take over, I suggest it is time for you to run. Your defence for the praise team shows that you are starting to buy off on their lies, and once you start it is easy to slip into the pit with them. This is just a suggestion based on my experience, but if you stay put in place strong check and balances to know when it is time to leave.

To God be the Glory
Joe McKnight

The so called "survey" was crafted and distributed by the youth minister at the Red Bank Church in Chattanooga, TN. Approx. 2-4 months later worship "format", "style" began to change as a response to the survey. When asked privately and publicly for the survey results the Elders refused to release the results...except in general terms... with no firm numbers or responses... The Elders said these unsigned (because that is they way they instructed us to complete them) surveys were not ever going to be made available to anyone ... (except the select few... my words) They just did what they wanted to do anyway and used the secret results of this "survey" as justification.

Ok,

I am not going to be very eliquant here because I have a temper. Let me just say that this website is HOG WASH! There is nothing close to an accurate assesment about the majority of the statements made regaurding the West End Church of Christ. Let me bare in mind to the webmaster that allowing items to be published that are not based in fact can result in legal action. Just remember what happend to Jason Blair and fellow employees at the New York Times. As for the point of this website I guess your not just protecting the masses from the lies your helping to spread them too.

Ten points addressing fictional facts

1. There has never been a "survey" from the eldership concerning the worship practices at the West End Church.

2. The Youth minister was not from Chattanoga and he is not secretly trying to change our worship style. For those that are interested here is a snipt from his bio. >>>Wes, a native of Tennessee, was one of the youth ministers at the Madison church, and also interned as youth minister with the Northlake church in Atlanta. <<< I suppose Northlake church is bad too??? We already know your opion on the Madison Church of Christ.

3. The ranting about sexual music?!?!?! Whatever! West End does not have any sexual singing. I don't know what kind of drug induced looser started that thread but they do not even know what they are talking about.

4. Yes, West End did have a play but it was not "holy entertainment" it was not part of regular worship and yes that was "entertainment" but in the same "entertainment" spirit as a school play. But seeing as how we have a bunch of drug induced loosers making false statements I suppose one might not understand the difference. I guess your going to chastize us for hosting the Nashville Workcamp and allowing them to have a concert that involved a MUSICAL INSTRUMENTS! OH my! I already feel the flames after all in 1950 that was un heard of why should it be any differnt now!

5. The tangent on communion was taken outta context from the original post written by the "life time member" If you don't understand don't worry your most likely ignoring me by now anyway.

6. Ken Dye is just a person like everyone else he is not a conspiritor trying to pull some secret Hitler type takeover. Yes, he has attended the community church and he is open minded to worship ideas that are not rooted in the 1950's, but he does not have 666 tattoed on any of his body parts. And quite frankly those people that started the thread on him should consider the facts and re read Matthew 7. Look out for those planks!

7. Those that believe this is some type of destructive transition currently being experienced in the Church of Christ. Be warned it is not likely to go back to the archaic worship style enjoyed in the 1950's! As Dylan said "the times they are a changing" Like in business the church has transitional periods during which they remarket themselves. The worship patterns of the 1950's are no longer accepted and current to modern times. We now have a new world with new technology, and some of the best options to get the message out then we have had in years. I say toss out the overheads, song books, and suits and ties, and turn on the powerpoint, head to the hills and bring your sandals and shorts. If you don't understand that this is just transitional then your proably scared because your older and don't understand the new world economy,technology,and practices. Or perhaps it is just the same issues of control experienced by those who didn't want to let the gentiles be part of the church in biblical times. I suppose if you were part of the church of christ in the 1800's you might have said that those churches with the new song books were part of an evil transitional secret society too. OH and don't forget those evil people with four part voccal harmony we can have change this is the church of Christ.

9. West End does not 4have a "praise team!" The reality is they have a married couple plus one more person sometimes two that sit on the front row and sing like they normally would during a regular service. Most of the time you can't hear them over the others in the audience because the sound people have made the choice to "bury" them in the sound systems over all mix, so I doubt its going to be much more then another failed attempt. I think a praise team by definition would have to atleast get togther once and awhile to rehearse. These people do not practice unless you count fliping through the songs five minutes before service as a rehearsal.

10. If you are going to waste bandwith making up things about a church you have never attended. Then I beg of you at least listen to some of the sermons online or the weekly radio program so you can at least make a better attempt at pretending you know whats going on. I bet if we looked into it non of you attended madison church of christ either. One might even note that the whole website is a shameful example of why the church of christ may not last against the other worship options.



Ok now that I have made everyone mad and I am sure that this will start a thread about my poor gramer, my lack of facts, my lack of scripture, and a bunch of other things. Let me just leave you with this one last bit of advice. Read the book of James carefully then follow that with Matthew chpt 7. Then ask yourself if what your doing with this website and chat group really matters at the end of the day. I once remember a great minister that used and example at West End church involving a long piece of string and tape. For all of you who claim you know whats going on and most likely were not there I'll tell you that example. This minister placed the piece of tape on the string and then had one of the members take the other end so as the string was stretched accros the isle. He then asked the question "If the tape was your life and the string eternity would the things that matter most to you now have any relevance when your on the other side of the string?" If you made it this far then thank you for your time!

You say;

Ten points addressing fictional facts

1. There has never been a "survey" from the eldership concerning the worship practices at the West End Church.
========================
Message from the moderator;

Sorry, the church's own web page tells about the survey.

"You have spoken through the recent vision survey response"
http://www.westendcoc.org/sodir.html

If your number 1 point is wrong, we must assume all of your points are.

Thanks
Have a Nice Day!

This is NOT a survey: it is a heavy handed NEW CONSTITUTION suggesting the abandonment of the OLD church of Christ which does not work past Y2K.

These are all of the HEGEL or Anderson code words to tell the church that we are a moving.

Furthermore, there is the usual assignment of the church as the product of the 1950s. Well, STAFF INFECTION was an earlier TRADITION which stuck: now the infection is spreading. It is TRADITIONAL to lie that the view of NOT USING instruments was invented by the OLD church of Christ. But that is a lie.

It is TRADITIONAL to lie about the Bible as authority making fun of the commands, examples and inferences of Scripture. But that denies that this is a Biblical DIRECT command to follow commands and was the view of all historical scholars.

This view changed with the Shelly CORE GOSPEL and the POSTMODERN view spewing out of "once" Christian colleges that the Bible lost its authority for faith and practice when the clock to Y2K clicked over. They even pronounce this is the end of the CHRISTENDOM ERA.

No. The survey would not pass the test of minimal ethics. It is telling people where to go and warning others that we are JUST ABOUT THERE.

You just watch and see. Why could an elder look himself in the face if he asks the survey to tell them which way to go. The elders have lost their grip and it is the ministers who are masters. Shelly tells you that the ministers are best equipped to lead and the SHEPHERDS shepherd the ministers. That is they have become the denominational BOARD OF DIRECTORS and the dominant Finto like leader has taken over. I remember meeting one of the "ministers" when he first came to Nashville: he was speaking about those old mean elders for firing him if I rememeber. That seems to be the PATTERNISM.

Ken

Of Ezekiel 13 Matthew Henry said of male and female "prophets" or preachers for pay:

----They PROFANED the name of God by pretending to have received those lies from him (v. 19):
"You POLLUTE my name among my people, and make use of that for the patronising of your lies
----and the gaining of credit to them.'' Note, Those greatly POLLUTE God's holy name that make use of it to give countenance to falsehood and wickedness.
----Yet this they did for handfuls of barley and pieces of bread.

They did it for GAIN; they cared not what dishonour they did to God's name by their lying,
----so they could but make a hand of it for themselves.

There is nothing so sacred which men of MERCENARY spirits,
----in whom the love of this WORLD reigns,
----will not PROFANE and PROSTITUTE,
----if they can but get MONEY by the bargain.

The Hebrew CHALAL or HALAL gives rise to the word translated LUCIFER. It is translated as "to play the flute, to POLLUTE or to PROSTITUTE." It also has the meaning to TAKE YOUR INHERITANCE by PRUNING YOUR VINE. This is the meaning of the ZAMAR or MELODY. The PRUNING HOOK then and IN THE END TIME is the name of a MUSICAL INSTRUMENT.

Preaching for Pay without conviction is RELIGIOUS PROSTITUTION. If you do not believe the Bible and take pay it is like MALE PROSTITUTION: there is no FRUIT from the religious-musical rituals which applies only to superstitious paganism historically involving the MINISTRY of male and female prostitutes.

THE ELDERS AND DEACONS ARE THE PASTOR- TEACHERS as the ONLY ones who exercises any authority in a local congregation. If you hire someone to do what so many are doing to faithful churches you will have NOT returned to the New Testament. You have not become a MODERN church for the modern society. You have gone all the way back to BABYLON where the towers or temples were manned daily by priests (preachers), Soothsayers (singer- musicians), Prophets (liars) and PROSTITUTES, male and female. A prostitute or SPIRITUAL ADULTERER defined the Hebrews who SERVED in a religious sense and DEMANDS or GIVES PAY. Most of the Jewish clergy prostituted their teaching roles most of the time.

The Bible and History repudiate a WAGE for those who cluster around the temple and spread STAFF INFECTION. The scheme is a Works Project Apostasy (WPA) for lazy or incompetent men who have no CALL to "teach the Word as it has been taught."

Whatever church is being CONFISCATED we will prove that ONLY YOU have the authority of God on your side. No, the elders have no TAXING power to do that which the Bible does not demand as necessary.

And YOU are the only ones with the REAL POWER which Scripture gives to YOU and YOU only: your income which when TAXED deprives you, your children of the means for educating them. THERE IS NO LAW OF GIVING. THERE IS NO LAW OF TITHING. ANYONE WHO MAKES GIVING MANDATORY OR PREACHES THE TITHE HAS SINNED BEYOND REDEMPTION.

COME OUT OF HER, MY FRIENDS, IF JESUS CHRIST EVER CAME TO the "new style" CHURCHES IT WAS PROBABLY ONLY LONG ENOUGH TO REMOVE HIS CANDLESTICK. WHY DO YOU WANT TO JOIN THE MASSES WHEN ALL OF THE BIBLE PROVES THAT GOD'S CALLED OUT REMNANT are, IN THE MIND OF ISAIAH, "ONE DROP OF GOOD JUICE OUT OF ONE ROTTEN GRAPE OFF ONE BARE CLUSTER OFF ONE DEAD VINE IN ONE GOD-BUILT VINEYARD WHOSE WALLS HE HAS BROKEN DOWN SO THE "BEAST PEOPLE" CAN COME IN AND PRUNE YOUR VINES USING MUSICAL INSTRUMENTS (PRUNING HOOK) TO TAKE AWAY YOUR SPIRITUAL INHERITANCE.

God took away their inheritance "to the beat of musical instruments" because they were devoted to WINE, WOMEN AND MUSIC and allowed the flock to hunger and thirst and die for lack of the WATER OF THE WORD.

CALL YOUR FRIENDS IF YOU WANT TO GET THE "BURDEN LADERS" RIDING YOU LIKE PACK ANIMALS OFF YOUR BACK AND BEGIN TO ENJOY THE FUNDAMENTAL MEANING OF THE GOSPEL: GOOD NEWS, JESUS CHRIST AS GOD INCARNATE DIED PHYSICALLY TO PURCHASE YOUR "REST" from the "spiritual anxiety created by religious rituals." They will INCREASE the anxiety and drive you into schizophrenia (Postmodern objective) in order to strip you of any will and then they will USE you and ABUSE your for their own joy and profit.

Anyone from any of the churches who has an honest question can e-mail me and I will gladly give you more evidence on the new PROFESSIONAL MINISTRY trained in communications, philosphy, psychology or heaven help us: THEATER or MUSIC. There is nothing in the Bible, in history or or arena of common decency which gives people the right to manipulate your minds with music and a growing financial TAXATION.

If you take the new surveys you will RESPOND as the survey informs you to respond or you will probably be MARKED as a trouble maker and forever excluded from the INNER CIRCLES of the Saddleback hostile takeover.

Ken Sublett

We have noted and noted and noted that Jesus didn't promise to build a church but an ekklesia or SYNAGOGUE. Church is seen as a "worship center" but that is wholly and unholy paganism. The synagogue was and should be a SCHOOL OF THE BIBLE. Or, as the Restoration Movement in Thomas Campbell's mind should be A SCHOOL OF CHRIST. The primary "worshi" was to read and dialog or teach the Word "as it had been taught."

Alexander Campbell on Regenerating the Church notes:

http://www.piney.com/AcCsRegeneration.html

"And, first of all, be it observed, that in some churches there appears to be wanting a proper method of handling the Scriptures to the edification of the brethren. It is admitted by all the holy brethren that the Scriptures of truth, called the living oracles, are the great instrument of God for all his purposes in the saints on earth. Through them they are CONVERTED to God, COMFORTED, CONSECRATED, made meet for an inheritance among the sanctified, and QUALIFIED for every good word and work.
----Every thing, then, depends upon the proper understanding of these VOLUMES of INSPIRATION. They can only operate as far as they are understood.

Campbell stated that:

"The system of SERMONIZING on a text is now almost universally ABANDONED by all who INTEND that their hearers should understand the TESTIMONY of GOD.

"ORATORS and exhorters may select a word, a phrase, or a verse; but all who feed the flock of God with knowledge and understanding know that this method is WHOLLY ABSURD.

ABOUT PAYING SOMEONE TO PREACH AS CLERGY CAMPBELL SAID:

"Give money to make poor pious youths learned clergy, or vain pretenders to erudition; and they pray that they may preach to you; yes, and pay them too.

"Was there ever such a craft as priestcraft? No, it is the craftiest of all crafts. It is so crafty that it obtains by its craft the means to make craftsmen, and then it makes the deluded support them!" (Campbell, Alexander, Christian Baptist, Dec. 1, 1823, Vol. 1, p. 91).

"MONEY is of vital consequence in the kingdom of the CLERGY. Without it a clergyman could not be made, nor a congregation supplied with a 'faithful pastor.' O Mammon, thou wonder-working god!" (Ibid., p. 124).

"'Will you,' said an honest inquirer, 'allow the clergy no salary at all? Will you not allow the poorer class of the clergy a decent little competence?' I replied I have NO allowances to make. Let them have what the Lord has allowed them. 'How much is that?' said he, JUST NOTHING at all, said I. A church constituted upon New Testament principles, having its own bishop or bishops, or, as sometimes called, elders, will not, and OUGHT NOT to suffer them to be in want of any thing necessary, provided they labor in word and doctrine, and provided also, they are ensamples to the flock in industry, disinterestedness, humility, hospitality, and charity to the poor. Such bishops will now be esteemed very highly in love for their words sake;
-------but especially those who, by THEIR OWN HANDS, minister not only to their own wants, but also to the wants of their brethren." (Ibid, p. 140).

"That any man is to be paid at all for preaching, i.e. making sermons and pronouncing them; or that any man is to be hired for a stipulated sum to preach and pray, and expound scripture, by the day, month, or year, I believe to be a relic of popery." (Ibid., Vol. 3, p. 185).

"Our Elder labors with his own hands, that he may live honestly..." (Vol. 5, p. 163).
-----"... our elders labor... for their support, and are not burdensome to the church; but in case of need..." (Vol, 5, p. 95).

Unfortunately "Big wolves have crept in on little sheeps toes wearing tutus" and have used unholy psychology to convinced the rarely-prepared elders that they need a KEEPER to move them into the NEW CENTURY.

"Those who LORD it over the people will soon begin to DESTROY Them. The word Balaam means 'the destroyer of the people.' If we turn back to the history of this strange figure as recorded in the book of Numbers we find that which clarifies three passages in the New Testament where 'the error of Balaam' (Jude 11), 'the way of Balaam' (II Pet. 2:15) and 'the doctrine of Balaam' are discussed." (Barnhouse, D.G., Revelation, Zondervan, p. 54

Ken Sublett

What a read! I'll admit I got a little lost wading through that dense undergrowth of prose there, Ken. And all of the others, too. May I suggest that you boys and girls try and play nice for a change. Christianity...well i guess that one's a failed project...let's call it Christi-Anarchy (x-ref Dave Andrews' book) doesn't have to be such a head trip. I'm only 23 and I've driven myself nuts trying to get my head around it. In the process I've alienated others and my relationship with God, (or if that kind of talk gets to you I'll say "the way I feel about God and His teachings"), has dwindled. May I suggest that we all go back and re-read the Sermon on the Mount. I find Jesus to be the most amazing person who ever lived. It's difficult to divorce the churchy presuppositions that are a component of my fairly traditional (even that word is now under attack) upbringing from the way I respond to Jesus now. But I have tried, as I know is common for the Campbellite Tradition, to approach the story of Jesus without any preconceived notions. Like it or not, the story of Jesus is one full of compassion, concern, love, civil disobedience (bet you didn't see that one coming), service, forgiveness, and yes grace and mercy and the other ecclesiological words that I would rather ignore. Jesus was one radical dude. For those who are shocked and awed by such language reminiscent of the 1960's, you can breathe now. I mean radical in two forms. First he stands against most of what makes sense in this world -- again, read matthew's account. You people are smart; I don't have to spell them out for you. Second, he is at the root of how God approaches his people. That is, the fruit of the spirit. Not fruits, that isn't the concept. Just look at how he deals with people. Now, like any good syllogism (man I hate 'em) apply the common understanding that Christians, er I mean, followers of Jesus, are to image Christ, and then with that in mind, look over the posts on these boards and others. Then ask yourself, should I be involved in such things as writing, reading, responding, even pondering the notions mentioned? I only say this because I nearly drove myself insane arguing about these things, trying to prove and disprove, before I really looked at the truth about ministry, the way to live, and indeed life itself, abundantly. Hey life doesn't have to be so ugly all the time. How about turning up your head and smiling at the good gifts God has given us, like life. Like each other. Fellowship. Like the written word. The Parakletos. And for all of us reading this, communication. Food. The list continues. And I tire.
Yeshua Shalom.

And BTW, before you make a mad dash for that "Respond!" button, just get up from your desk, walk a round for a bit outside or in, wherever comfortable, and try not to think about anything. Just sit. And smile. maybe laugh a little too...it's okay, I know you wanna.

I quoted the UNIVERSAL teaching of the HOLY SPIRIT and if you don't believe or cannot understand simplle Bible Text or historical quotations maybe you need remedial reading. I clearly understand the HISSING whenever the "olden outdated" Bible is quoted.

There is NOT A SHRED OF SPIRIT- INSTRUCTED EVIDENCE that a church NEEDS or can TOLERATE a professional staff.

There is not a SHRED of historical documentation which does not utterly REPUDIATE people riding on the backs of widows and the poor working people who need the REST or help Jesus died to give and MINISTERS to support. The BURDEN is clergy- produced "spiritual anxiety by religious ritual." History says SEND THEM OUT or SEND THEM AWAY or GET THEM AN HONEST JOB. They will still have the same time Paul had when he worked when the people worked and SYNAGOGUED while they had time.

Paul established this as PATTERNISM: if they will not work neither shall they eat: he was speaking about the MANY false preachers.

Letting people ride on your back specificially to SOW DISCORD because of utter ignorance of either Christ or His word defines you as Paul defined the Corinthians (in my paraphrase): FOOLS LOVE TO BE FOOLED. When God pours out His wrath He "sends buffoons."

Tired, Retired and Jesus commissioned me to PUSH BUTTONS to refute the TERMINAL IGNORANCE OR (AS I BELIEVE) TERMINAL EVIL SPEWING OUT OF THE DOCTORS OF THE LAW "SENT OUT BY ACU TO CREATE APOSTASY."

Try John Waddey's QUOTES of another "scholar" who just makes a fool of himself.

Look at MADISON "to change?" No!

Ken stating that this THREAD of tring to bring the church of Christ into PAGANISM (music) WILL NOT WORK so you guys need to repent.

I have been a member of the church all my life. After coming across this website, I cannot believe the things that are happening in the church today. You have all gotten so caught up in contemporary vs. traditional that you have all forgotten the true purpose for worshipping and that is to praise God. Is it any wonder we have problems converting people and bringing them to the church with all this bickering going on. When you tell people you attend church of Christ what is their first reaction? For me, it's "oh I don't want to be a part of that church. They are all a bunch of hypocrites." I am ashamed that grown christian people cannot settle their differences without throwing "pot shots" at one another. I don't know who this Ken Sublett is, but I think he needs to stop condemming everyone who had a different opinion than his and start being more accepting of others. God put us on this earth to love each other, not sit on a website and debate doctrinal opinions. When all is said and done that is really what this debate is about;DOCTRINE. I pray that each of you will study the scriptures and ask God to give you wisdom and compassion for your fellow brothers and sisters in Christ. Just think about this: When we get to heaven do you think it will be divided into contemporary and traditional sections or will we all be there together loving each other and praising our wonderful savior. God is more concerned with what is in our hearts than he is with the style we worship him in. Let's stop all this pety arguing, and start putting our efforts into bringing more people to Christ. If you devoted the same abount of time to bringing people to God as you do on this web page, all the churches would be filled to capacity. May God have mercy on all your souls.

Lisa if you watch the other threads you will notice that I have connected RITUAL PRAISE SINGING as one of the oldst, most ignorant and most superstitious practice known to religious history. Praise singing is the belief that you can manipulate the LISTENING AUDIENCE or more likely appease God and encourage him so that he does fail you again and send rains or a large crop of lambs.

"To see to all of this the god had priests trained as cooks, bakers, waiters, and bathers, or as encomiasts (singers of praise) and musicians.

----"to make the god's meals festive, or as elegists to soothe him in times of stress and grief. Diversions from the daily routine were the great monthly festivals and also a number of special occasions.

http://www.piney.com/MuEncomiast.html

The Britannica notes:

"Of Ceremonial objects: On occasion, objects have been used to compel the sacred (or divine) realm to act or react in a way that is favourable to the participants of the ceremonies or to the persons or activities with which such rituals are concerned,

---or to prevent the transcendent realm from harming or endangering them.

"These objects thus can be mediatory devices to contact the divine world,as, for example, the drums of shamans (religious personages with healing and psychic- transformation powers).

"Conversely, they can be mediatory devices used by a god or other supernatural being to relate to man in the profane realm.

"They may also be used to ensure that a CHIEF (preacher, elders) or sovereign of a tribe or nation is RECOGNIZED as having DIVINITY in cultic or community ceremonies. Of such a nature may be PHALLIC cults.

You know, like steeples and pillars and a huge temple: the biggest in the city.

Paul uses ONE EXCLUSIVE word for worship. When the people assemble they constitute the SYNAGOGUE. The church is A SCHOOL OF THE BIBLE. The synagogue began as the Qahal or "church in the wilderness" and in Num 10:7 God outlawed the TRIUMPH or ALARM. That means "playing instrments and/or "making a joyful noise before the Lord." That was the WARRIORS chant to MELT THE HEART of enemies such as Jesus Christ when they "praised him to death" as Beliar or Beel-zebub. The David PRAISE word was to make yourself vile.
==============================

Jesus exampled and Paul commanded us NOT to engage in praise singing which creates spiritual anxiety.
WE then that are strong ought to bear the infirmities of the weak, and not to PLEASE ourselves. Rom 15:1

PLEASE IS: Aresko (g700) ar-es'-ko; prob. from 142 (through the idea of exciting emotions)

AIRO (g142) ah'ee-ro; a prim. verb; to LIFT; by impl. to take up or AWAY; fig. to RAISE THE VOICE, KEEP IN SUSPENSE the MIND

Jesus came to give REST which is the opposite of what we too often see as worship but it rarely gives us real satisfaction. The laded burden which fits Paul's idea and which Jesus died to remove is the Greek:

Phortizo (g5412) for-tid'-zo; from 5414; to LOAD up.. figurative to OVERBURDEN with CEREMONIAL or SPIRITUAL ANXIETY.

Paul then commanded that the only way to GLORIFY GOD WITH ONE VOICE is to teach one another "WITH THAT WHICH IS WRITTEN." That is by the Spirit of Christ in the Apostles. Anyone who cannot grasp that is, according to Matthew 13, NOT SUPPOSED to grasp it.

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Consistent with the direct command of God "there was no praise service in the synagogue." That EXCLUSIVE worship word was to GIVE HEED TO THE WORD or to "GIVE ATTENDANCE TO THE PUBLIC READING OF THE WORD, TO EXHORTATION (TO FOLLOW THE TEXT) AND TO DOCTRINE.

Paul never got close to prescribing a RITUAL called PRAISE SINGING. We praise Jesus by giving heed to Him through the Word. Your praise singing is lustfully giving attention to the PRAISE LEADER who in the Holy Place as a type of the church of Christ would be sacrificed and portered out with the DUNG just the way JESUS did the Musical mourning and praise team while HE was doing his work. Just like one "ejects dung." The classics have something to say about that.

Like me or lump me but YOU guys are performing what was universally associated with religious prostitution. I wish I could give you some relief from that terminal sin but there is not ONE JOT OR TITTLE in the Bible or history which does not agree with what I am telling you. Repentance and confession is the only thing which will cause Jesus to open your EYES and EARS. He did PLUG the eyes and ears of the performing Jewish clergy by speaking in parables and enraging them.

Ken

Dearest Ken, have you considered that a congregation of believers, or indeed one by her/himself, singing praises to God is not for the purpose or intention of, as you put it, "prevent(ing) the transcendent realm from harming or endangering them"? Or the possibility that they (parishioners engaged in singing) are not looking to "ensure that a CHIEF (preacher, elders) or sovereign of a tribe or nation is RECOGNIZED as having DIVINITY in cultic or community ceremonies"? In fact this most often isn’t the case. While not universally applicable, I believe many engage in this rich tradition as a means of showing love to God. Unconditional, Unequivocal, Logical, Emotional, Deserved but not commanded, love. This is accomplished on two different fronts, as I see it.

1 - Singing admittedly does invoke an emotional response. If not I would argue its irrelevance, much like bad, uninspired poetry or an “airplane novel” or elevator music. This emotional response is part of the reason that contemporary love songs, particularly in the last thirty years, have been so popular. They were in fact popular in the days of the Psalmist, as well as Solomon's Proverbs, and most obviously, the Song of Solomon. (Incidentally, the psalmist, David, danced and sang praises to God with a harp. Now I suppose some might say, "Ahh but David slept with Bathsheba so he obviously didn't understand the will of God" -- I've heard that argument before and frankly don't buy it based on the context of the greater canon of scripture.) These are professions of love, often spoken aloud in monotone (what we would call “music” didn’t really begin to evolve until after Constantine, and even then didn’t sound anything like the traditional four-part harmony we have become too accustomed to. It was, however, the ancient practice most closely related to contemporary singing. In fact I think the idea of singing a "love song" if you will to the creator and sustainer of mankind, the author and perfector of our faith, could arguably be a very powerful and meaningful method of worship. And I am using the most popular translation of that English word which is, "to attribute worth." In John Ortberg's book, The Life You've Always Wanted, he speaks of, "True Worship coming when there exists a transformation of the heart and a propelling towards obedience." I think this is what Jesus hopes for in his body. Obedience to God isn't, "Don't fly Kites; If so, you can go to hell." Instead he wants us to live in joyful exuberance of life, driven to serve him and just as importantly to serve others. I think this is Paul is talking about, which brings me to my next point.

2 - For those readers, and undoubtedly you as well, I think there is substantial evidence in the New Testament that, if following the tradition of "Sola Scriptura", promotes and advances the practice of singing as a viable and pleasing form of worship. X-ref these verses: Matthew 26:30; Acts 16:25; Romans 15:9; I Corinthians 14:15; Ephesians 5:19; Colossians 3:16; Hebrews 2:12; Hebrews 13:15; James 5:13. Hey for those of you like me who enjoy reading more than just the Second Testament, check out Job 38: 1a, 4a, and 7, Psalm 67, 70, 149, and 150. (Hey these passages are cool, too. Check out 1st Chronicles 9, 15, 23, and 29; also Psalm 118 and 136.) I really prefer not to use the prooftext blitzkreig made popular by the likes of Leroy Brownlow, J.E. Choate, and others before them, but I understand that while typically cold, it strikes a chord with those who rely so strongly on oversimplifying the written Word.

3 - That said, the departure from music as a part of worship services that I take you to promote was mostly a blip, if that, on the radar of mainline Christianity until it was more concretely developed in the American Enlightenment. (John Calvin even thought it (music) as more powerful than the spoken word). The Enlightenment response was primarily due to an assumption that the “essence of music could not be rationally approached…and created subjective feelings.” It was, incidentally, at this time in history that the Holy Spirit again came under attack by the intelligensia who believed it couldn’t be easily quantified or calculated, defined and categorized. This traditional approach to science is very dangerously applied to theology, (x-ref Francis Bacon, Renee Descartes, and other modernist scholars and clergy.) Admittedly, many songs of the era were not edifying God but took a more humanistic approach, in which case a point could be made by proponents of music limitation.

Ken, I think you have some really interesting ideas, and I think many could learn from what is undoubtedly a vast intellect, and more importantly, an earnest desire to minister to others and to follow God's commands to the fullest. Your study of the Babylonian creation myth and of Mesopotamian religious history are admirable. I wonder, though, if you have started with a historical presumption that is not well founded in biblical fact, or in epistemological church history. But I do not wish to discourage you from your zeal, nor do I wish to imply that I have the answers to this topic debated throughout all denominations (even the most denominational of "non-denominations") and all centuries of Christian history. What I do believe is that all of us -- those posting on these boards, those simply reading the responses, and those who choose not to spend their time indulging a voyeuristic cat-n-mouse fantasy -- are eager to live in accordance with the gospel of Jesus Christ, the “good news” as laid out in the New Testament; and to see it in light of God as revealed in the Old Testament; and to be a part of the work that the Holy Spirit continues to do upon the earth.

May God's blessings be upon us all; May he ever watch over the widow and the orphan; May he forgive us for the ungrace that we bestow upon others; May he give us the compassion to reach a dying world; and May he empower the church to fulfill his greatest commands, "to love God with all of our being and to love every living person with the same love that Jesus showed(s) to us.

Jonathan Cyr
An old West End family member and friend

"Lord, help me to love without remorse
help me to give without reward
help me to live without regret"

First of all...Jonathan, I'm not replying directly to your message, your's just happened to be the last post on this page.

Brothers & Sisters- WE are the problem with churches today. The members of the Church of Christ have absolutely distroyed any desire for many unsaved people to search for God because of our spiritual snobbery & our manner of damning anyone who doesn't subscribe to our brand of religion. Through the years, we have treated each other worse than any of my unsaved friends would ever think of treating anyone. I know that there are some people who have strayed very far away from the truth that is in God's word, but this is not the manner to handle it. Jesus called the Pharisees a "brood of vipers"...He could very well call us the same thing! We bad mouth anyone who has a different view of scripture than we do, but how often do we go to that person to discuss our different views?

The Bible is NOT a roadmap or instruction list! We should stop viewing it as such. The Mosaic Law was laid out with the checklists that we so often look for, but there are no such checklists within the New Law. I firmly believe that it IS open for some interpretation, in order to give us freedom in our ways of praising God. If you were to come to me to tell me that you think that there is no interpretation allowed, then I will not condemn you for it.

Do you think that God puts his fingers in his ears whenever he hears the praises from a church with a praise team? Do you think he does this when he hears a conservative church with 10 members? Do you think he does this whenever he hears a congregation with a guitar wielding worship leader? God wants our praise, but he DOES NOT give specifics! Yes, he rejected sacrifices in the Old Testament when they were not propper, but that was always because of a direct disobeyment of a direct command....there are no such direct commands regarding modern worship.

I know that I have set myself up to be labeled a "Liberal." Some of you may even doubt my salvation at this point. But, my prayer is that as many people as possible will read this, and stop these things that have pushed us further from what God wants us to be. We need to quit beating each other up & learn to lift each other up.

Anonymous, I have to constantly be reminded of what is at the heart of being a child of God, and you have done this today. Thank you for your understanding. Thank you for reminding us that knowing God, really knowing him, isn't about what we think we understand about the bible. That in fact it is far less about thinking at all, and more about the heart...that is how we serve each other. I am a firm believer that neither liberalism nor conservatism (whatever those vague ambiguities mean), not the world nor science, nor unbelievers and what not -- none of these is the greatest enemy of the church. Indeed I believe it is the church itself. The older I get, and I'm only just out of college, the more I see why so many turn a deaf ear to the church and its members, for they can be some of the cruelist around. I know I have come across that way. It is one of the reasons that I have tried, and I don't think this is necessarily a good thing, to separate myself from the practice of weekly church attendance to discover what God has in store for me. I found myself feeling anger and distrust towards evangelists, either in the pulpit or anywhere else. I was in effect destroying myself and certainly any compassion for God and his creation. Until I can take joy in being in community with others, I have decided to separate myself from that practice.

Thank you for seeing the church for what it is: an extension of the kingdom of God on earth. A multinational, multilingual, multiracial family not bound by socio-economic class, skin color, creed, political affiliation or other such nonsense. What a joy it is to be heirs to the kingdom, beneficiaries of the promise of life, brothers and sisters of Christ, sons and daughters of God, friends of the world, in community with all of creation giving praise and glory and honour to the creator of the universe. Wow, what an awesome life to live!

May we devote our time to making peace on this earth, starting with our own neighborhoods. It's much more fun and creative, though a lot harder than hiding behind email addresses poking and prodding at others. May we always show mercy. May we always distribute grace. May we give of our time and of our money realizing that nothing we have is ours, but God's. But each other's. May we stop striving to be an irrelevant, elite social club wrought with rules and regulations, initiation ceremonies and black-balling techniques, and instead take the gospel seriously. We gotta start loving, and I'm starting with the man in the mirror...
Yeah now I've got a Michael Jackson vibe, sheesh.

Yeshua Shalom.

Jonathan Cyr

You have posed many questions and this will take some time. You should remember that the SYNAGOGUE was for the non-Levite people who were not on duty. There was never "any praise service in the synagogue" which was a SCHOOL OF THE BIBLE. David was not a worship minister and never led worship services. He was king and the Levitical Warrior musicians were not under the priests but the KING and the COMMANDERS OF THE ARMY. Even so, the sacrificial musicians could never enter into the Holy Place whose symbols are fulfilled ONLY by a synagogue where a musician would be executed. The Most Holy place is symbolic of MY SPIRIT where I come boldly before the Throne of Grace. The priests went in one at a time in silence and darkness. This is the human SPIRIT mediated by the "incense altar" or Christ as we worship God Who IS holy or pure Spirit and cannot be worshiped by the works of human hands or anything man has to offer but personal praise and prayer.

Jesus said "I will build MY synagogue (ekklesia) while He declared that worship is not in physical places but the PLACE of the spirit or human heart as it gives heed to TRUTH. Paul said that the converted Jews now "worship God IN THE SPIRIT" which is opposed to IN THE FLESH or place.

I have lots of Calvin who utterly repudiated music in the asssembly and only inspired songs were sung as Paul commanded.

Let Calvin Speak to show that the POWER of music can instil false doctrine powerfully. Therefore, use God's Praise songs:
"
Now in treating music I recognize two parts, to wit, the word, that is the subject and text, and the song, or melody.

It is true, as St. Paul says, that all evil words will pervert good morals.

But when melody goes with them, they will pierce the heart much more strongly and enter within. Just as wine is funneled into a barrel, so are venom and corruption distilled to the very depths of the heart by melody.

So what are we to do? We should have songs that are not only upright but holy, that will spur us to pray to God and praise Him, to meditate on His works so as to love Him, to fear Him, to honor Him, and glorify Him.
For what St. Augustine said is true, that one can sing nothing worthy of God save what one HAS RECEIVED from Him.

Wherefore though we look far and wide we will find no better songs nor songs more suitable to that purpose than the Psalms of David, which the Holy Spirit made and imparted to him. (The Spirit of Christ 1 Pet 1:11)

Thus, singing them we may be sure that our words come from God just as if He were to sing in us for His own exaltation. Wherefore Chrysostom exhorts men, women, and children alike to get used to singing them, so as through this act of meditation to become as one with the choir of angels.

Then, too, we must keep in mind what St. Paul says, that devotional songs can be sung well ONLY by the HEART. Now the heart implies intelligence, which, says St. Augustine, is the difference between the singing of men and that of birds. For though a linnet, a nightingale, or a parrot sing ever so well, it will be without understanding. Now it is man's gift to be able to sing and to know what it is he is singing.

[Paul did not prescribe external melody which one does with a twanging arror, a yanked hair or like the SOP which Jesus rubbed off for Judas whose bag was for "carrying mouthpieces of wind instruments. The MUSICAL word is never used in the Bible favorably]

Calvin again: AFTER INTELLIGENCE, the heart and the emotions must follow, and this can happen only if we have the hymn engraved in our memory so that it will never cease.

And therefore the present book needs little recommendation from me, seeing that in and of itself it possesses its own value and sings its own praise. Only let the world have the good sense henceforth to leave off singing those songs-in part vain and frivolous, in part stupid and dull, in part foul and vile and in consequence evil and destructive-which it has availed itself of up to now,

----and to use these divine and heavenly canticles with good King David. As for the melody, it has seemed best to moderate it in the way we have done, so as to lend it the gravity and majesty that befits its subject, and as might even be suitable for singing in church, according to what has been said.

Many religions continue this practice which we undoubtedly abandoned when Alexander Campbell had his OWN song book. Standard Publishing then published one with musical notes and decreed it the ONLY AUTHORIZED song book. We sing this voodoo influence stuff because the PUBLISHERS tell us so.

More later. Ken

Jonathan: 2 - For those readers, and undoubtedly you as well (read real good), I think there is substantial evidence in the New Testament that, if following the tradition of "Sola Scriptura", promotes and advances the practice of singing as a viable and pleasing form of worship.
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I don't think that Scripture anywhere promotes singing as a GOD pleasing form of assembled worship. While the local body is synagogue or school of the Bible it also is the time to remember and show forth (preach) the death of Jesus Christ. Nothing in the Bible about music is related to the WORSHIP word except as condemned. You simply do not MAKE MUSIC in the class room of Christ. None of the quoted passages have anything to do with the assembly.

THEIR singing was not OUR singing. When you read a Greek text, you spoke to someone. When you read or recited a POETIC peace you sang. A team is not remotely connected to the idea of "singing" as "speaking the word." It is an "organic organ" singing organum as a performance. You worship whatever you GIVE HEED TO. You cannot give heed to Christ as the One Master Teacher and at the same time give heed to the "body worship."

You cannot obey the direct command to TEACH or PREACH the inspired text in the form of SINGING with the melody (grinding to a fine powder) in your mouth. There is a fairly clear directive as to WHERE the grace or melody rests. Jesus said that the worship component is in the human heart or spirit (John 4) and the Samaritan woman at the well grasped that Messiah did not come to be worshipped ritualistically but "HE WILL TEACH US ALL THINGS."

The Britannica notes that MELODY AS TUNEFULNESS belongs to the 19th century. Therefore, I know that it was not MUSIC.

Luther on Sola Scriptura said: "I can soon judge and say whether their doctrine is of God or of man; for I am doing the will of God, who sent Christ. I have given ear to NONE but God's Word, and say:

----'Dear Lord Christ, I want to be thy PUPIL, and I believe thy Word. I will close my eyes and surrender to thy Word.' [You see, sola scripture says that GOD does the speaking and singing.]

"Thus He makes me a free nobleman, yes, a fine doctor and teacher, who is CAPTIVE to the Word of God, and is able to judge the errors and the faith of the pope, Turks, Jews and Sacramentarians. They must fall, and I tread them underfoot. I have become a doctor and a judge who judges correctly." (LW. 23.230; Q. in Wood, 121) For Luther, therefore,

---"SCRIPTURE became the cornerstone of all KNOWLEDGE of God.

"The Word provided the sole foundation for both individuals and institutionalized Church.

Think about it: do you thank the boss for his leadership, or do you organize a MUSICAL PRAISE TEAM?

On Romans 15 which excludes efforts to stimulate EXCITEMENT Calvin wrote:

"That with one accord ye may with ONE MOUTH glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ."

"52. All the good we can do to God is to praise and to thank him. This is the only true service we can render him, according to his words in Psalm 50, 23:

"Whoso offereth the sacrifice of thanksgiving glorifieth me; and to him that ordereth his way aright will I show the salvation of God."

"We receive all blessings from him, in return for which we should make the offering of praise. If anything else purporting to be service to God is presented for your consideration rest assured it is erroneous and delusive.

"For instance, the DISTRACTED world attempts to serve God by setting apart houses, churches, cloisters; vestures, gold-trimmed, silk and every other kind;

----"silver vessels and images; bells and organs, candles and lamps;

----"the money for which expense should have been appropriated to the poor if the object was to make an offering to God.

"Further, it keeps up a muttering and wailing in the churches day and night.

"But true praise and honor of God, a service that CANNOT be confined to PLACE or PERSON, is quietly ignored the world over.

"The pretenses of priests and monks about their system of exercises being service to the Lord, are false and delusive.

53. Service to God is praise of him. It must be free and voluntary, at table, in the chamber, cellar, garret, in house or field, in all places, with all persons, at all times.

----Whosoever teaches otherwise is no less guilty of falsehood than the Pope and the devil himself.

Ken

Jonathan you mentioned the singing in Romans 15:9.

I have submitted a quick (unchecked) look at Psalm 22 to try to understand this statement. When Jesus ask why God had forsaken Him He was using a common device often used by Paul. That is, by quoting the first part of Psalm 22 you are supposed to go there for the rest of the story.

In the end Jesus would triumph over the enemies. And the enemies were prophesied in several psalms to attack Jesus with the Levitical Warrior musicians. I have posted my quick study here.

http://www.piney.com/Psalm-Twenty-Two.html

The strong deluders are still left without a shred of Biblical or parallel document evidence that God wants to be "worshipped" with music which intends to and does "take away the key to knowledge." What we are seeing out of a small band of men seems like the wonder working deceiving prophesied for the end times. I don't mean to be nasty (it's congenital) but I cannot find these men writing without making themselves seem like BUFFOONS. That is the meaning of God pouring out His wrath: making them stand up commedians.

That's the way I READ it: gotta happen some time. The message is IF THEY RAISE THEIR VOICES they are wearing a sheep skin and Jesus is comming to peel them off.

Ken

I have connected Psalm 22 to the SINGING TO THE GENTILES. Psalm 22 makes it clear that the SINGING as MOCKING Jesus was not SPIRITUAL WORSHIP. Furthermore, as Jesus groaned out a hymn, Paul said that we should observe the Lord's Supper to SHOW FORTH His death. That is, the ACT is not to ritualistically CELEBRATE His resurrrection but to not lose sight of HIS SUFFERING at the hands of the Mocking musicians:

----"Saying, I will DECLARE thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise (hymn) unto thee. Heb 2:12

DECLARE in Greek is:

--Apagello (g518) ap-ang-el'-lo; from 575 and the base of 32; to announce: - bring word (again), declare, report, shew (again), tell.

----Aggelos (g32) ang'-el-os; from aggello, [prob. der. from 71; comp. 34] (to bring tidings); a messenger; esp. an "angel"; by impl. a pastor: - angel, messenger
This does not mean to entertain but to do the work of an EVANGELIST: Speak or Preach to one another:

----Euaggelizo (g2097) yoo-ang-ghel-id'-zo; from 2095 and 32; to announce good news ("evangelize") espec. the gospel: - declare, bring (declare, show) glad (good) tidings, PREACH (the gospel).

An angel is a messenger. The GOOD news when WROUGHT became the ev-angel. A messenger who rushed across rivers and mountains to bring news of victory was an evangelist. Jesus Christ, the Angel of the Old Testament endured great agony in order to "sing to the Gentiles."

Sing is not MUSIC.

----Apalgeo (g524) ap-alg-eh'-o; from 575 and algeo (to SMART); to GRIEVE out, i.e. become APATHETIC: - be past feeling

The AFFLICTION prophesied for Jesus was responsive singing. It is related to the same idea in Hebrew:

---Anah (h578) aw-naw'; a prim. root; to GROAN: - lament, mourn.

When the "team" sings, claps and sings THAT WHICH the performers have written you are once again AFFLICTING Jesus Christ rather than DEMONSTRATING and SHARING with His GRIEVEING OUT which He still does for all but a TINY REMNANT.

Paul told the Corinthians they DID NOT assembley to eat the Lord's Supper but to sing and pray out of their OWN spirit. Their ritual would be seen as MADNESS or insanity. From this it is clear that they SHOULD HAVE MET primarily for teaching and for the Lord's Supper.

----"For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lords death till he come. 1 Cor 11:26

Declare or SHOW FORTH is what Jesus would do in the assembly as He groans out of suffering and not celebration:

--Kataggello (g2605) kat-ang-gel'-lo; from 2596 and the base of 32; to proclaim, promulgate: - declare, preach, shew, speak of, teach.

----"Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Col.1:28
Warning is;

---Noutheteo (g2560) noo-thet-eh'-o; from the same as 3559; to put in mind, i.e. (by impl.) to CAUTION or REPROVE gently: - admonish, warn.

Thus, this SPEAKING the Words of Christ is not PENTECOSTAL PROFESSIONAL MUSIC but it is to "psallo" or abrade or cut up the heart in a graceful way to warn or GRIEVE OUT.

This is the meaning of Pauls EXTERNAL speaking or preaching with the SINGING in the heart:

----"Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord. Col.3:16

This speaking the WORDS of Christ intends to GENTLY ADMONISH and cause us to grieve out the hymn rather than to MUSICALLY PERFORM it pretending that we are superior to Christ and His Words.

----"Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers. Ep.4:29

You and all of the churches I am aware of or have heard about in the last few years are UNDER HEAVY BONDAGE by men who HAVE NO LAWFUL role to play as PROFESSIONAL fathers of YOUR family because the have not faith in the WORDS of the Living Word and have no TEARS to shed for the lost world: 'They play on the harp but are not GRIEVED over the lost.'

Your PUNISHMENT for having allowed yourself to be SADDLED up like a pack animal by DOCTORS OF THE LAW is that God has SENT YOU STRONG DELUDERS to produce STRONG DELUSIONS. There is NOTHING related to the Assembly of Christ and there is EVERYTHING proving that you are under SPIRITUAL BONDAGE. Why can't you see it? Why do all victims of CULTS subjected to psychological BRAIN WASHING burn themselves down? But Paul did say of the Corinthians in so many words: "Fools love to be fooled."

Check it again:

http://www.piney.com/Psalm-Twenty-Two.html

You can just about poke a pin in the Bible and find the NEW STYLE WORSHIP as a show of deliberate lack of REVERENCE and GODLY FEAR and Paul said that it is still a fact that OUR GOD IS A CONSUMING FIRE.

Ken

I have an idea. How about everyone who actually goes to West End put their real names by their posts. You should not be afraid to speak your mind. Also, if you do not go to West End, why are you here. Do you not have anything better to do with your day than quote scripture to proove your arguments? How about you come to West End and meet some of the wonderful servants of God that attend. About the survey, we did take a survey and it did have questions about worship on it, but who cares. If we all stop worrying about the politics in the church and start loving one another and serving our God, all of the 'Problems' will work themselves out. Don't get me wrong, I disagree with a few things that go on at West End, but I try not to let them get in the way of my focus. I love my brothers and sisters at West End and my focus is God.
Love in the Lord
Josh

Is this web site a joke or hoax? I stumbled upon a site that lead me to this series of messages.

I'm not a member of the Church of Christ denomination, but I can assure you, I won't be looking for one now. If you people are serious, this is the most rediculous thing I've ever seen in the name of Christ.

I won't be back here, but I thought I leave my sentiments. I hope that your faith grows deeper in the things that Christ and the apostles spoke of such as love, changing lives, grace, peace, fruit of the spirit, etc. I'm not seeing much of that here. Sure, those thinngs may not be part of the topic of this thread, but what you are talking about sounds like Jehovah's Witnesses, 7th day Adventists or some other works/law oriented thing. I understand that some people may not want their church to change, but it doesn't appear that people are allowed to have differing opinions without condemnation.

18 years ago, Christ freed me from 7 years of daily drug use (as well as heavy alcohol). Two of my closest friends were never freed from them. One has been in and out of prison and and the other died of overdose. People like that need Christ. On the other hand, the Pharisees needed Jesus too, but most were dictating their man made rules too much to listen to him and think (hearing but never understanding).

Now that I've written all this, I'm wondering why I even kept reading after I saw how silly this site is. I'm going to try to put my mind back on things above.

Blessings!

Amen!

I am a member of the church of Christ. Most of the stuff this site quotes as scripture and history is based on other legalists in the church of Christ and eisogesis, not true historical study...it is someone's opinion. There are other opinions out there based on fact that you have to factor into the discussion for you to find out the truth. The supposed "change agents" are actually pretty learned people who have studied too much for their intelectual studies to be thrown out as "oh, but those guys are change agents."

I suggest you list this site in your churches that are going to hell...after that shut this place down.

NO ONE is coming to Christ because of this site!

This site DOES NOT glorify God.

Jesus must be crying right now because of this site (and don't say he's probably crying because of what happened at Madison or anywhere else, because that is not what I am addressing right now...that is a different subject).

When you say that we should all follow a certain set of doctrines, you are making yourself a FULL-ON DENOMINATION because they have people who tell each church what to believe. The CORE doctrine which is the GREATEST COMMAND is to love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind...and the second is like it: love your neighbor as yourself.

This is why we are having such a hard time winning souls to Christ, because people bring up ignorant arguments about secondary principles PERIOD.

Please note that the beginning of this web site states that anyone can worhip thw way they want....but the purpose of this site is to enlighten us about the takeovers being done, covertly, and I might add, because so many members no longer study the bible, rightly dividing the wordl of truth. I was a member where this very thing happened.
When I read about the other churches listed here, I was shocked to see the pattern. For instance, where we are, a few people came in and wanted a praise team...When people raised objection, that ALL are to praise God in song, etc. they were told, "Oh, they are just going to sit on the front row..You won't see them."
We were told by other churches of Christ that had been hit by the change agents, watch out, they will be up front within a year. We said, no way, our elders have assured us not. Well, within 6 months, they were standing up, doing solos, clapping and rocking in the aisles. When members objected, they were told.."What's the difference? You allowed them to sit down ...what's the difference now that they are standing up?"

I should interject here, that it was able to be done so quickly because we had a new preacher that the 2 elders who led everything picked...then THEY (for the first time in the history of the congregation, HAND-PICKED 6 new elders and told us who they were...
These were men that we all knew would go along with whatever they decided...6 very weak men, unversed in the bible. The members had no say in the selection of the elders. We should have realized at that point that the church here was doomed.

I guarantee you those who are getting praise teams, it won't stop there...instumental music and women being deacons, and serving communion will be next....changing the name to community church...or leaving off "church of christ" in the name
..."because that is offensive to some people". (WHAT???!!) That is what happened where we were worshipping....within 2 years!
We had 800 members. now there are 250 and most of them that are left are angry at the divisive takeover but refuse to leave. The church is totally dead and dying weekly...There are no outreach programs anymore....the only money collected has to go to the salaries. That is why we decided to finally leave.
If the majority had wanted all the above, fine, they can have it...but when a VERY small group comes in and changes the whole basis of the church and splits the church, that IS NOT LOVING!
We have had families torn apart. ...very loving families .... It cannot be right when it is so divisive. I admire you men who speak up and try to warn people what is happening. It is not LOVE to sit by and say, "h let's just love each other and all get along." Did Christ say that to the moneychangers in the temple? Christ took a very hard- nosed approach to truth and He taught us that the most loving thing we can do is help our brother not fall into a pit.
It is not loving to let us have women as deacons and to serve communion, pray in the assemblies and "give testimony" when the bible is so clear against women speaking up in the church and having authroity over men.
There are some things that are not necesarily wrong sometimes, in and of themselves, but where is the christian love for our brother....to say, you know, I don't see anything wrong with lifting up my hands into the air when I sing, but if it is offensive to 1/2 the people in the audience with me, then perhaps, the loving thing is for me to go to a chuirch where it is widely accepted or not do it, if it will offend my brother and cause him to leave.
Sadly, I would have taken the position of some of you about 2 years ago...oh, it's just a praise team, what't the deal...but it does not stop there, and the majority do not want all this rocky, rolly clapping and women taking over, etc. Please, those that want it, do the loving thing and leave and start your own congregation...Don't take over a long-standing, traditional church of Christ and split it apart! tearing up families and friends. THAT is the real UNLOVING GROUP, not those who are trying to alert you and preventing these destructive takeovers. Are these men "therefore now your enenmy because they tell you the truth?" Gal. 4:16

It is clear the C of C is at a crossroads at this time.
I attended a CofC up to a couple of years ago at the age of 39 I left for a true non-denomination church where the entire Bible is preached.

Today some C of C's are starting to preach the whole Bible, and the rest are in an uproar.

The problem at most C of C's is they speak where the Bible speaks and are silent where it is silent,

but they also speak where the Bible is silent and silent where the Bible speaks.

And don't forget: "They SING where the Bible is Silent and PLAY where the Bible is silent."

But, the Word of God IS NOT SILENT about either singing secular praise tunes or playing instrument or doing anything to AROUSE THE PLEASURE ZONES (Rom 15).

They are SUPPOSED to do SYNAGOGUE and not church. That means that the PURPOSE is to "glorify God," the METHOD is with "one mind and one voice" and the RESOURCE is "that which is written.

In Ephesians and Colossians the MODE was SPEAKING or PREACHING, the RESOURCE was the SPIRIT (the Words of Christ Jn 6:63) and the singing AND melody was IN THE HEART. That makes sense because Jesus said that God only SEEKS those who can worship in the PLACE of their human spirit as it GIVES HEED (that unique worship word for Paul) to the TRUTH. That is why he said that those of the CIRCUMCISION no longer worship in TIME and PLACE but IN THE SPIRIT continually. John was IN THE SPIRIT on the Lord's Day and that is the PLACE he MUST be in to hear from God.

That was important in both the Greek world which was then the Hebrew world where "rhetoricians, sophists, singers, musicians and craftsmen" belonged to the SECT of the Hypocrites. They define the SORCERY in the book of revelation and will go back into hell with the holy whore (Circe or church in John's islands). All and especially singers and instrument players (the ISTS as in flutISTS) who were identified as PARASITES.

Romans 15 defines a synagogue setting which would imitate what Jesus Christ would do: they would do nothing to ARUSE feelings of pleasure, they would be considerate of others, they would GLORIFY GOD using ONE MIND and ONE VOICE. Their only RESURCE was "that which is written."

So, it IS possible for us to ALL SPEAK THE SAME THINGS if our SPEAKING is like the synagogue: "that which is written, the Spirit (Words of Christ Jn 6:63, Eph 5) or the WORDS of Christ (Col 3.) "Sing" in the Greek world was limited to a few "notes" and in the "lower register" which is suited to the SPEAKING voice and Paul demanded that of us. "Singing" was melodic or vocal and NEVER harmonic where "tunefulness in melody relates to the 19the century."

Any of the higher registers or MODES including singing and playing instruments was INTENDED to induce a form of MADNESS called ecstasy in Paul's mind. This drove you OVER THE EDGE and the madness was interpreted as the GODS inside of you. This was something like David's PLAYING (as at Mount Sinai) in moving the Ark to the Jebusite High Place. The singing, playing and circular dance also induced dizziness where PUKING was proof of God's presence. The word HALAL for his praise most often means to MAKE YOURSELF VILE. And that is what Michal saw.

So the first fatal step was the NEW STYLE SONG books outsourced from the Wimbers of Vineyard INTENDED to induce a SEXUAL CLIMACTIC EXPERIEND: just before the final ACT of "giving of means." Most churches of Christ have bought into the CHURCH IS FOR WORSHIP Insanity and the more CLIMACTIC they make people feel the more they will return to be further brain damaged and fleeced.

The Bible is not SILENT about music: it holds Lucifer to having led the fallen angels. As SERPENT everyone in that area knew that it meant MUSICAL ENCHANTER. SHE is the "harp playing prostitute" as the king/queen of Tyre. We have recorded testimony that she/he used SINGING GIRLS to sell cedar to the Egyptians, get him cozy with music, steal the cedar back and conspire to murder him.

The king/queen of Babylon is a type of Lucifer: He/she would go into SHEOL with her harps and harpists to ROT on a bed of maggots. We have FOUND them.

As the end-time Babylon Whore she will again be sent back into hell with her craftsmen, musicians, instrument players and grinders (prostitutes).

So, I would say that MANY churches long ago took the fatal step of seeing SPEAKING as MUSICAL WORSHIP and the REMNANT PRINCIPLE doesn't give much hope for repentance.

Ken Sublett

Hi Ken,
Well the music wasnt what I was talking about.

I am speaking of verses such as Acts 42,44,45,46,47.
And these examples are often and numerous throughout the Bible.

I dont see believers using fighting words about selling their possesions and goods and giving to those as they had need.
I dont see many believers meeting every day or eating together in each others homes reguarly.
No we have a fairly sanitized religious regiment and dont vary much from it, not just the church of Christ but most church's for that matter.
Acts 4:34 says, There were NO needy persons amoung them. For from time to time those who owned lands or houses sold them, brough the money from the sales and put them at the apostles feet and it was distributed as anyone had need.

I simply dont see us fighting to uphold these Biblical truths.

I do completely agree with you about the tithing issue.
We arent under the law of the tithe any more. If we were the above verse Acts 4:34 would be invalidated. Because there are givers and recievers in the church.
And if we were under the tithe, the true tithe, since we give cash and not goods and services would be 12%, plus 12%, plus and additional 12% every third year.
Thats a whopping 28%. If anybody is giving 28% out there they are giving the true tithe. Its not 10%.

I was just fishing, but music goes to the point.

For instance if West End buys an OUTREACH MINISTER and the outreach minister probably calls forth a $90,000.00 "worship minister" (as God warned about what the KINGS would do) to make HIS work INREACH then we all understand why the LAW OF GIVING yields for the only Biblical "targets" about what the tele-marketers yield.

Since the DESTITUTE was the Biblical and historical target group for the giving of the PROSPEROUS (not hungry?) and they now get 5% to 10% while unlawful PYRAMIDAL MINISTRY TEAMS and temple and grounds gets MOST OF IT, there simply is no way that can be defined as a CHRISTIAN assembly.

The MUSICAL function and other PERFORMING ARTS is the VISIBLE mark of an invisible spiritual death. Most of the charity works in my experience has emerged out of women and men from the back pews and not something many leaders losing sleep over the unlawful debt can originate.

Ken

I really liked what you had to say.
Thank you.
Bl

Paul laid it down as a Law that there are no STAFF (rimes with shaft) executive ministers in the body of Christ who is executive BECAUSE He gave up His life.