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West End Church of Christ, Nashville,Tn.

September 23 2002 at 9:43 PM
ConcernedMembers  (Premier Login madisonchurchofchrist)
Owner
from IP address 65.80.181.80

How do you get a congregation to accept a "praise team" when over half
said they where happy with the current church worship services?

Trick or Treat: Church Surveys


Warning! Don' take The Church Survey...... It's A Trick!


 
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AuthorReply
ConcernedMembers
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65.80.189.128

Appointment Of Outreach Minister

October 28 2002, 6:42 PM 

The appointment of this minister in 1999 seems to show where the West End Elders planned to go long before they asks their members.

Look at this minister's past Church associations, to see clearly where Westend wants to go.

http://www.westendcoc.org/ken_dye.html


    
This message has been edited by ConcernedMembers from IP address 65.80.189.128 on Oct 28, 2002 7:47 PM


 
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B. Bowman
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68.52.16.50

Ken Dye's Resume

November 23 2002, 9:34 AM 

I was surprised to read Ken Dye's resume on the West End Church of Christ Website. I have lived in Hendersonville for 17 years and at no time has the Hendersonville Community Church ever been called a church of Christ. Why in the world would they state that on their website?

 
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Trae
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66.143.4.143

when was he in Stillwater?

November 23 2002, 5:01 PM 

I was a member at the Stillwater church of Christ for a few years in the mid 90's and he wasn't there then. At the time, I thought the church was very 'liberal', but now it seems conservative by comparison.

 
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Joe McKnight
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65.57.48.20

It was at the begining

November 24 2002, 7:38 AM 

Hendersonville Comm. Church was the Hendersonville Community Church of Christ for a few years after the split. They drop the name Church of Christ after the event a few years ago that cause such a turmoil.
One Sunday they drought in group of singers and their muscial instruments, this caused a preacher to be fired from David Lipscomb and an asist preacher to quit, and the congergation changed it's name.

 
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ConcernedMembers
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ConcernedMembersChurchList
65.80.190.123

They didn't

November 25 2002, 10:19 AM 

If you read closely, you will see they are talking about two different Churches. "The Hendersonvile Church of Christ" and the "Community Church of Christ" which is also in Hendersonville.

 
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GOD
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68.52.227.102

Ignorance

February 3 2003, 8:05 AM 

If you have lived in Hendersonville for that long you must be totally stupid or ignorant because up until 2000 the church that split from Hendersonville Church of Christ was called Hendersonville Community Church of Christ. It changed when Lipscomb responded to jerks who got their panties in an uproar and asked for Doug Varnado's resignation.

 
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Kenneth Sublett
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63.84.81.52

Outreach Minister

July 23 2003, 9:41 AM 

In the Bible and history you don't appoint a LOCATED OUTREACH MINISTER: you SEND them out or SEND THEM AWAY according to early church history.

You don't appoint a MISSIONARY IN RESIDENCE unless you are ungodly. The AGENTS claim that the Bible has been SIFTED by the Bible writer's personal agenda and philosophy. That means that ALL THE rest is apparntly UNGODLY TRASH. Calling clear Bible quotations UNGODLY TRASH is the exact meaning of the insanity of the POST MODERN MIND which wants a different Jesus who apparently didn't teach DOCTRINE (teachings). Let me show you that the Bible and Greek Scholarship identified PHARISEES and SCRIBES but it also identified another PROFESSIONAL GROOP: the HYPOCRITES. Greek scholarship identifes them as rhetoricians, sophists (sOPHISts - ophis or the SERPENT in Revelation), singers, actors and instrument players as HYPOCRITES. Furthermore, the word HYPOCRITE or GUITAR PLAYER or trained "super-apoostles" as PARASITES.

=====================================================

E-Mail Question: Why accept Greek baptizo- yet refuse to accept Greek psallo??

Greek psallo - to sing accompanied with instruments - English sing- to produce musical sounds with the voice (Greek- sing - a voice, oracle).

The church is neither consistent, nor honest, when they say the word "sing" (minus the instruments) is biblical for Eph. 5:19 "melody", I Cor.14:15, "sing", etc. Also, "Not honest" is when they fake ignorance of the real meaning of "psallo".

==================================================

The word PSALMOS is the same as SONG. A song by definition is written in meter so that it can be read silently, read aloud, chanted, sung or sung with an instrument. When we SINGIG A SONG everyone knows that it is metrical. Throughout Scripture when the idea of MAKE MELODY is used it is always SING (Psalmos) but that is never enough: the instrument is ALWAYS defined if it is intended. One might say "sing and MAKE MELODY on a harp." But, Paul said "sing and MAKE MELODY in the heart." Now, you can make melody ON the harp but you cannot sing and make melody ON a harp and IN the heart.

I can prove it to you and have ALL of the older scholars confess it: that ALL of the musical terms and names of instruments in the Old Testament relate to Satan, to animal sacrifices, to prostitutes. The except is the normal innocent playing of children and women.

The Word Psallo was not a MUSICAL word but in the Greek it was used of the Yanking, pulling, snapping or otherwise using the FINGERS to yank or pluck out a hair or to send an arrow into the literal Heart. Then it was used of a harp but ONLY in the sense of PULLING a string and suddenly let it go.

Finally, it was used of singing the Psalms by early Christians. However, like ALL musical terms, the word has BITTER ROOTS. So, we ask, would Paul use a WARRIOR'S TERM to send panic into the heart of the enemy often with twanging bow strings (like harps) to define TEACHING one another in a spiritual assembly? He used the word to define what goes on in the human heart when we SING with Jesus. This was to REPUDIATE the "getting drunk with wine" which is PAUL'S message condemning instruments especially the flute because "getting drunk with wine and playing the flute" meant about the same thing to the Greeks.

Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, An Intermediate Greek-English Lexicon

Psallô [psaô]

--I. to touch sharply, to pluck, pull, twitch, Aesch.; toxou neuran ps.

--to TWANG the bow-string, Eur.; belos ek keraos ps.

--to send a shaft twanging from the bow, Anth.; so, schoinos miltophurês psallomenê a

----carpenter's red line, which is twitched and then suddenly let go, so as to leave a mark, id=Anth.

Only in a secondary sense does the word mean to PLUCK with the FINGERS. The defined act is PLUCKING and not the resulting MUSIC. You cannot strike and you cannot blow using psallo.
--
II. to play a stringed instrument with the fingers, NOT with the plectron, Hdt., Ar., Plat.

And only LATER to sing to a harp:

--2. later, to sing to a harp,

--And in the New Testament SING:sing, New Testament

This can have no application to wind instruments or percussion instruments.

A Similar Latin word

--REVELLO, velli, vulsum or volsum, 3, v. a., to pluck or pull away, to pull or TEAR OUT, to TEAR OFF or away

----I. Lit. be torn away, remove,

----II. Trop., to tear away, send away injurias honorificis verbis,

------Signum: A sign, signal; a watchword, password, given by a wind-instrument.


P. Vergilius Maro, Aeneid


She said, and from her QUIVER chose with speed
The WINGED SHAFT, predestin'd for the deed;
Then to the stubborn yew her strength applied,
Till the far distant horns approach'd on either side.
The bowstring touch'd her breast, so strong she drew;
WHIZZING in air the FATAL arrow flew.
--At once the TWANGING bow and SOUNDING dart
--The traitor heard, and felt the point within his HEART.
--Him, BEATING with his HEELS in pangs of death,
--His flying friends to foreign fields bequeath.
----The conqu'ring damsel, with expanded wings,
----The welcome message to her mistress brings

These notes show that the BOW as one of the earliest "musical instruments" always carried the idea of confilct:

Fragment 10, Aristotle, de mundo 5, 396b20

--Things taken together are wholes and not wholes, something is being brought together and brought apart, which is in tune and out of tune; out of all things there comes a unity, and out of a unity all things.

----The BOW is called STRIFE, but its WORK is DEATH


Fragment 209, Hippolytus Ref Ix, 9, I

They do not apprehend how being at variance it agrees with itself: there is a palintonos (counter-stretched) harmony, as in the BOW and the LYRE.(4)


Fragment 54, Hippolytus Ref IX, 9,5

An unapparent harmony is stronger than an apparent one.


Heraclitus: "All things come into being by CONFLICT of opposites, and the sum of things flows like a stream. This order, the same for all things, no one of gods or men has made, but it always was, and is, and ever shall be, an ever-living fire, kindling according to fixed measure, and EXTINGUISHED according to fixed measure. Justice meant a balance of opposites, and strife.

Heraclitus cited as an example the tension between the string and the frame in a bow or a musical instrument. 'Harmony lies in the bending back, as for instance of the bow or of the lyre... Opposition unites. From what draws apart results the most beautiful harmony. All things take place by strife'."(Parkes, Henry Bamford, Gods and Men The Origins of Western Culture, p. 188, Knopf)

Music is always PERFORMANCE and it is an artistic rendering of truth. The early rhetoricians or sophists who were trained to DRESS UP speech were identified as the sorcerers in the book of Revelation. Scripture authorizes only men who will faithfully deliver the word in the belief that God knew what He was saying. Those who did it as a PERFORMANCE were understood to be parasites. Any form of instrumental music intends to dress up God's words. Therefore, ALL instrument players were identified in the Greek world as parasites. Why would the Spirit permit a guitar player (the instrument of choice and apostate churches these days):

--kithara the Lat. cithara (whence guitar), a kind of lyre or lute, Hhymn., Hdt., attic: --it was of triangular shape, with seven strings, Eur. Cf. ki^tha^rizô


----Latin with similar definitions


----parasi-tor . a-ri, v. dep. [id.] , to play the parasite, to sponge: parasitarier, Plaut. Stich. 4, 2, 54 : parasitando pascere ventres suos, id. Pers. 1, 2, 3


That is why if you insist on REAL INSTRUMENTS you rest your faith on a word which could mean PULLING the strings of a harp or the HAIRS out of the head of the enemy or TWANGING him to death with a SINGING arrow.


Paul spoke of the singing (ado) word only in the context of a teaching practice. If you use performance music you can have no intention of teaching and admonishing but of entertaining people. Singing is not the legalisti ACT but singing was the common way to teaching God's Word.


My best resource says that it was not until the year 1878 that ANYONE attempted to justify instrumental music by the word Psallo. The Greek language has other words for MUSIC and Paul did not use one of them. Furthermore the CLANGING word Paul used was the instrument of warfare or the sorcerers:


> blituri , to, TWANG of a harp-string: hence of a MEANINGLESS SOUND, S.E.M.8.133, D.L.7.57, Artem.4.2, Gal.8.662. Perseus

> klang-ê , hê, metapl. dat. klangi Ibyc.56 : ( [klazô] ):--any sharp sound, e.g. twang of the bow, Il.1.49; scream of birds, esp. cranes,


----to which are compared CONFUSED cries of a throng,
----grunting of SWINE,
----howling of WOLVES and LIONS, h.Hom.14.4, cf. 27.8;
----hissing of SERPENTS, Pi.Dith.2.18 (pl.), A.Th.381 (pl.);
----baying of DOGS, X.Cyn.4.5, etc.;
----also, of MUSICAL INSTRUMENTS, Telest.4, Mnesim.4.57 (anap.); of song, S.Tr.208 (lyr.); k. aêdoneios (leg. -onios) Nicom. Trag.1; k. dusphatos, of Cassandra's prophecies, A.Ag.1152 (lyr.);
----of the scream of the HARPIES, A.R.2.269. Perseus

> klangê (klazô): scream, properly of BIRDS, Od. 11.605; of animals,
----as the squealing of PIGS, Od. 14.412;
----and of the loud cry of WARRIORS, Il. 2.100;
----the sharp TWANG of a BOWSTRING, Il. 1.49. Perseus

MUSICAL TERMS and instruments were associated with the male and female prostituted who SERVED at the pagan religious festivals. They were called PARASITES because they provided none of the useful services of preaching or singing the Words of Christ.

I can go on and on but you cannot find a historical reference which sees MUSIC in the Bible: the Catholic Encyclopedia which should know confesses that music was common to ALL PAGAN CULTS and was therefore adopted to attract the pagans.

You must understand that the CHANGE AGENTS have been CHANGED by their efforts so that they CANNOT hear the Spirit again. The postmodern view or B.M. (Before Me) holds that ALL TRUTH has been declared to be UNGODLY TRASH and you must trust ME (for an ungodly price) to fix the problems which I CREATED (for an UNGODLY WAGE). When you diminish the Word you diminish Christ (full deity) because you believe that HE is sitting on the chair while the hallucinated Holy Spirit Person can "be heard audibly speaking to you guiding you into all the truth." Believe such lies and you are already damned beyond redemption.

Ke

 
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Kenneth Sublett
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63.84.81.62

Outreach minister

August 7 2003, 12:51 PM 

Arnobius BLISTERS the professional artisans who pretend to have DIVINE SKILLS:

http://www.piney.com/FathArnobHeresII.html

38. For, to begin with what is important, what advantage is it to the world that the mightiest kings are here? What, that there are tyrants , lords, and other innumerable and very illustrious powers ? What, that there are generals of the greatest experience in war, skilled in taking cities; soldiers steady and utterly invincible in battles of cavalry, or in fighting hand to hand on foot?
....What, that there are ORATORS , grammarians, POETS, writers, logicians, MUSICIANS , ballet-dancers, mimics , ACTORS, SINGERS , trumpeters , FLUTE and reed players?
What, that there are runners , boxers, charioteers, vaulters, walkers on stilts, rope-dancers , jugglers ?
....What, that there are dealers in salt fish, salters, fishmongers, perfumers, goldsmiths , bird-catchers, weavers of winnowing fans and baskets of rushes?
What, that there are fullers, workers in wool, embroiderers, cooks, confectioners, dealers in mules, pimps , butchers, harlots ?
....What , that there are other kinds of dealers?

Did He send SOULS hither for this reason, that they which had been but now sincere and of blameless virtue should learn as men to FEIGN, to DISSEMBLE , to lie, to CHEAT, to DECEIVE , to ENTRAP with a FLATTERER'S abjectness ;
....to conceal one thing in the heart,
....express another in the countenance;
....to ensnare, to BEGUILE the IGNORANT with CRAFTY devices , to seek out POISONS by means of numberless arts suggested by bad feelings, and to be fashioned with deceitful CHANGEABLENESS to suit circumstances?

....Was it for this He sent souls, that, living till then in CALM and undisturbed TRANQUILITY, they might find in their bodies causes by which to become fierce and savage, cherish hatred and enmity, MAKE WAR upon each other , subdue and OVERTHROW states; load themselves with, and give themselves up to the yoke of slavery; and finally, be PUT THE ONE in the other's power, having changed the condition in which they were born?

The poisoners in the book of Revelation were the SORCERERS. Circe who IMPOSED her name on the CHURCH used real poisons administered with MAGICAL SONGS and INSTRUMENTAL MUSIC. The CRAFTSMEN were the TECHNE wo were the HERMENEUTS, RHETORICIANS, SOPHISTS, SINGERS, MUSICIANS, FLUTE-GIRS OR PROSTITUTES and all of the CRAFT YOU ARE "laying by in store" to support. That is why they belonged to the SECT of the Hypocrites and were known as SPONGERS OR parasites. They all show up in the DEMISE of the holy whore in Revelation 18. MOST organized CHURCHES who honor CIRCE the whore will go back into hell with her, here MUSES (locusts), craftsmen, instrumentalists and GRINDERS (concubines-prostitutes). The MUSES of the END-TIME PROSTITUTE CHURCH are:

Mousa 1 [*maô]
....I. the MUSES, in pl. the MUSES, goddesses of SONG, music, poetry, dancing, the DRAMA, and all fine ARTS, Hom.: the names of the nine were Clio, Euterpe, Thalia, Melpomene, Terpsichore, Erato, Polymnia or Polyhymnia, Urania, and Calliope, Hes.,
....II. mousa, as appellat., music, song, Pind., Trag.:--also ELOQUENCE, Eur.:--in pl. ARTS, accomplishments, Ar., Plat.

The MUSES were turned into LOCUSTS to be resurrected by APOLLO who is Abaddon or Apollyon: the father of musical harmony, twanging bows to send 'singing' arrows, liars and THIEVES. The Muses in legend failed to honor the MOTHER GODDESS and were turned into locusts or "musical performers." When resurrected their goal to to focus worship on a form of SATAN and to worship of THE MOTHER OF THE GODS. The performers are:

mousôidos , on, ( [ôidê] ) SINGING, making MUSIC, Man.5.143.

Peter OUTLAWED private interpretation or FURTHER EXPOUNDERS because it DENIED that Christ could speak for God, and IF you permit them you DELIBERATELY open yourself up to the MAJORITY who are FALSE PROPHETS. This is why you PAY blind guides to lead you and you will DESERVE just what you get. Paul told the Corinthians that FOOLS LOVE TO BEE FOOLED. That is the REAL REASON for the PURCHASE of a MUSICAL WORSHIP LEADER.

....And the voice of HARPERS, and musicians (MUSES), and of PIPERS, and TRUMPETERS, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no CRAFTSMEN (Rhetoricians, sophists, hypocrites, PARASITES), of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a MILSTONE shall be heard no more at all in thee; REV 18:22

hupobol-eus , eôs, ho, ( [hupoballô] ) SUGGESTER, reminder (v. hupobolê 1.3 ), Ph.1.591; in a THEATER, prompter, Plu.2.813f.
....2. INTERPRETER, Eust.106.12.
....I. = hupagôgeus 11, Theo Sm.p.71 H.

huperlian , Adv. beyond measure, exceedingly, sophos Eust.1396.42; to hu. Id.1184.18 ; hoi hu. apostoloi the SUPER-APOSTLES , 2 Ep.Cor. 11.5, 12.11.

Paul set the PATTERNISM that "if he will not work neither shall he eat." He was speaking of the MANY ARTISANS trying to EXTORT the living of the POOR in "tithes and offerings." Paul set HIMSELF as the SPIRITUAL pattern without which the Gospel is brought into REPROACH. Therefore to DISQUALIFY the "many" in Corinth, he used his GOING OUT AND SUFFERING as the PATTERNISM for a TRUE evangelists: If he DOESN'T GO he is a fraud." To further disqualify the CHRISTIAN religious work he identified himself as a ROBBER for having taken voluntary help even from his friends--but NEVER from a church "Poor Box.." The SOPHISTS blackened the name of ALL teachers by taking pay from the TAUGHT. Rather, they all, like ALL PRIESTS, had their own VOCATION and taught for FREE when he could. Otherwise, NO CRAFTSMAN OR "STAFF INFECTION" HAS ANY CREDIBILITY and that is why the church CEASED growing.

sophos

.....I. properly, skilled in any HANDICRAFT or art, cunning in his craft, Theogn., etc; of a charioteer, Pind.; of POETS and MUSICIANS, id=Pind.; of a SOOTHSAYER, Soph., etc.

.....2. clever in matters of common life, wise, prudent, SHREWD, s. andres Thessaloi shrewd fellows, the Thessalians! Hdt.; polla sophos Aesch.; meizô sophian sophos Plat., etc.; tôn sophôn kreissô better than all CRAFT, Soph.; sophon [esti] c. inf., Eur.

ophis-teia, sophistry, mantikê, of BALAAM, mantikê means divination, SOOTHSAYER (The SERPENT in the garden was the MUSICAL ENCHANTER)

....Playto, Cratylus says "the part of appropriative, COERCIVE, hunting art which hunts animals, land animals, tame animals, MAN, privately, FOR PAY is paid in cash, claims to give education, and is a HUNT after rich and promising YOUTHS, must--so our present argument concludes--be called sophistry. Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon

Nimrod was a hunter AGAINST God. He had his own Musical Worship Team to help him. The WOMEN PROPHESIERS or prophetis "singers" in Ezekiel HUNTED SOULS. And to make them POLLUTED in the eyes of God THEY CHARGED FOR IT.

Rhetoricians or Sophists are the OPHIS or fascinating SERPENTS in the book of Revelation. They are speakers and you CANNOT remove your eyes from their ANTICS and BUFFOONERY. But they SPIT poison in youre EYES to blind you to the FREE WORD. The connection with BAALIM and the OPHIS means that those whom you SUPPORT as they replace the POOR and DESTITUTE are the END-TIME enemies of you, the Word and of God.

Buddy bonding DRIVES AWAY the spiritual church owners and SEEKS or hunts YOUNG MEN and others and therefore HUNT SOULS with the INTENT of putting them unter the SOOTHSAYER'S bondage. This is the SECT of the HYPOCRITES defined by Jesus and PAUL confirmed the GREEK meanins when he defines them as ROBBERS or PARASITES.

Ken Sublett

 
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Kenneth Sublett
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63.84.81.14

Outreach Minister

August 11 2003, 11:26 AM 

The GREEK world as well as the Jewish understood "rhetoricians, sophists (sOPHISts or serpents), singers, musicians and craftsmen as of the SECT of the HYPOCRITES along with the Pharisee SECT and the Scribe SECT. The are the SORCERERS of the Book of Revelation and they WERE ALL known as PARASITES. Parasites were the priests helpers in sheding life, blood, guts, dung and burning flesh in temples. They are DOUBLY HYPOCRITES after Jesus Christ was likewise MUSICALLY MOCKED at His trial and death. Flute-girls and singers were prostitutes and were regulated by the same officials who regulated the DUNG HEEP. Musicians and performance preachers were PROSTITUTES because they "saw Godliness as a means of financial gain."

THERE IS NO EXCEPTION in the church Fathers or scholars and founders of denominations: performing preachers and musicians were REPUDIATED because you cannot SELL the Word without being a LEGALIST.

Clement of Alexandria born AD 150, , Athens died , between 211 and 215;

http://www.piney.com/FathClStromataI.html

But the husbandry is twofold,-the one unwritten, and the other written. And in whatever way the Lord's labourer SOW the good wheat, and grow and REAP the ears, he shall appear a truly divine husbandman.

...."Labour," says the Lord, "NOT for the meat which perisheth, but for that which endureth to everlasting life." [John vi. 27.] And nutriment is received both by bread and by words.

And truly "blessed are the PEACE-makers," [Matt. v. 9.] who instructing those who are at war in their life and errors here, lead them back to the PEACE which is in the WORD, and nourish for the life which is according to God, by the distribution of the bread, those "that hunger after righteousness."
....For each soul has its own proper nutriment; some growing by knowledge and science, and others feeding on the Hellenic philosophy, the whole of which, like nuts, is not eatable.

"And he that planteth and he that watereth," "being ministers" of Him "that gives the increase, are one" in the ministry. "But every one shall receive his own reward, according to his own work.
....For we are God's husbandmen, God's husbandry. Ye are God's building," [1 Cor. iii. 8, 9] according to the apostle.

..Wherefore the hearers are not permitted to apply the test of comparison.
....Nor is the word, given for investigation, to be committed to those who have been reared in the ARTS of all kinds of WORDS, (rhetoricians, sophists, singers, musicians known as sorcerers and there fore PARASITES.)
....and in the power of INFLATED attempts at proof; whose minds are already PRE-occupied, and have not been previously EMPTIED.

..But whoever chooses to banquet on faith, is stedfast for the reception of the divine words, having acquired already FAITH as a POWER of judging, according to reason. Hence ensues to him persuasion in abundance.
....And this was the meaning of that saying of prophecy, "If ye believe not, neither shall ye understand." [ Isa. vii. 9.]

.."As, then, we have opportunity, let us do good to all, especially to the household of faith." [Gal. vi. 10.]
....And let EACH of these, according to the blessed David, sing, giving thanks. "Thou shalt sprinkle me with hyssop, and I shall be cleansed. Thou shalt wash me, and I shall be whiter than the snow. Thou shalt make me to hear gladness and joy, and the bones which have been humbled shall rejoice.
......Turn Thy face from my sins. Blot out mine iniquities. Create in me a CLEAN HEART, O God,
........and renew a RIGHT spirit in my inward parts. Cast me not away from Thy face,
........and take not Thy Holy Spirit from me. Restore to me the joy of Thy salvation, and establish me with Thy PRINCELY spirit." [Ps. li. 7-12.]

....Then I will teach transgressors your ways, and sinners will turn back to you. Psa 51:13

"He who addresses those who are present before him, both tests them by time, and judges by his judgment, and from the others distinguishes him who can hear; watching the words, the manners, the habits, the life, the motions, the attitudes, the look, the voice; the road, the rock, the beaten path, the fruitful land, the wooded region, the fertile and fair and cultivated spot, that is able to multiply the seed.
..But he that speaks through books, consecrates himself before God, CRYING in writing thus:
....Not for GAIN, not for VAINGLORY, not to be vanquished by partiality, nor enslaved by fear nor ELATED by PLEASURE;
....but only to reap the SALVATION of those who READ,
........which he does not at present participate in, but awaiting in expectation the recompense which will certainly be rendered by Him, who has promised to bestow on the labourers the reward that is meet.

..But he who is ENROLLED in the number of men [Ps. li. 7-12.] OUGHT NOT to desire RECOMPENSE.
....For he that VAUNTS his good services, receives GLORY as his REWARD.
....And he who does any duty for the sake of RECOMPENSE, is he not HELD FAST in the custom of the WORLD,
........either as one who has done well, hastening to receive a REWARD, or as an evil-doer AVOIDING retribution?

..We must, as far as we can, IMITATE the Lord. I And he will do so, who complies with the will of God,
....receiving FREELY, giving freely, and receiving as a worthy reward the citizenship itself.
........"The hire of an harlot shall not come into the SANCTUARY," it is said: accordingly it was forbidden to bring to the altar the price of a dog. (male prostitute)

Of the king of Tyre as a type of Lucifer who "came equiped" with musical instruments and was in the garden wholly seducing Eve,
..And it shall come to pass in that day, that Tyre shall be forgotten seventy years, according to the days of one king: after the end of seventy years shall Tyre sing as an harlot. Is.23:15
...."Take an harp, go about the city, thou harlot that hast been forgotten; make sweet melody, sing many songs, that thou mayest be remembered. Isa 23:16

..And it shall come to pass after the end of seventy years, that the Lord will visit Tyre,
....and she shall turn to her hire,
....and shall commit fornication with all the KINGDOMS of the WORLD upon the face of the earth. Isa 23:17

Ken Sublett

 
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A Life Time Member Of West End
(no login)
66.199.9.14

Direction of West End

December 30 2002, 9:31 AM 

I have been a member at West End my entire life. I have seen a lot of changes and a lot of turmoil. My comment is until you know clearly what is going on don't criticize us.
I will admit West End has had its problems over the past several years. Actually our turmoil and problems started when Jim Bill retired over 15 years ago. Since then, it seems to have gone in waves or cycles. We will have periods of conflict and then periods where everything settles down. I will admit I don't agree with everything that has been decided by our elders or ministers. There have been times that I have been close to leaving (my parents left three years ago). I just can't go yet, because there are many good works and people who are working toward the Truth and serving God. We have had many faithful Christians and strong workers for the Lord leave over the past few years. It is interesting however, that these people have become members at both very progressive congregations and very conservative congregations in Nashville. West End has been riding a fence and trying to decide what to do, which has been killing it. Our new pulpit and youth ministers have brought positive changes and a renewed energy at West End. Definitely answers to many prayers.
Our biggest problem is not praise teams or small groups or entertainment. Those are only symptoms. Our biggest problem is a divided eldership, that masquerades itself as being unanimous and is not forth coming, honest, or open with its members. How can congregation grow and bless others when its leadership can't see eye to eye and its membership has no idea what is going on. They say we have no right to know and to some degree they are right. They accuse us of gossiping if we try to figure it out. But we are just looking for answers and the truth. Otherwise we feel lied to and don't trust our elders. It is a battle we have long been fighting but things are getting better.

As for the praise team, I admit I'm not a fan and wish we didn't have one. But there is nothing unscriptual about it. I can not pull out my Bible and find one scripture saying Thou shall not have a praise team or anything akin to it. I do think they hurt worship instead of help it, but that is a preference not scripture. Praise teams are not a salvation issue. They are merely a worship preference. Our praise is not upfront on the stage in an entertaining manner. They sit admist the audience with microphones. The women are not usurping anyone's authority. I will say that West End's praise team is not anything new. We have been trying to have one for the past five or six years. It is interesting however, the amount of problems that they have had with it, from sound equipment failure to a lack of finding anyone to consistently be on it or lead it. It has only really taken off in the last six months, but the leader has recently moved to Florida. I don't know if we will have the singers to keep it around.

For all its problems, I think West End is heading in a positive direction. God has not abandoned West End and the prayers of the faithful. We still have many problems to overcome and battles to fight, but we will not give up.

 
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Barbara Hill
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209.223.254.6

Doesn't say "Do not have a praise team"

January 3 2003, 12:32 PM 

No, it doesn't say "do NOT have a praise team" and it doesn't say "do not have coke and chips for the Lord's Supper" but it does say what we SHOULD do.

 
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fish and chips
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68.15.240.172

OK, so.....

January 3 2003, 4:16 PM 

OK, so we don't have coke and chips for the Communion. Then, LIKE THE ORIGINAL, lets have a full passover meal for communion. The original "Lord's Supper" WAS a passover meal. The Bible mentions the 3rd cup which was the cup of redemption it does not mention the other 4 cups, BUT they partook of them on that night. Also, the bread that they partook of was probably the 3rd piece of bread. You see it was broken into 3 pieces at the beginning of the meal (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) and the Son is the middle piece, which they ate. Pretty Cool, huh?

Anyway, if we cannot have praise teams because the Bible does not mention it and we can only DO STUFF the Bible does mention, then lets go the whole way and ONLY DO STUFF the way the Bible SPECIFICALLY says to. YOU CANNOT HAVE IT BOTH WAYS AND DO THINGS YOU CHOOSE TO DO THE WAY YOU WANT TO AND TELL OTHERS "NO,YOU CANNOT DO IT THAT WAY".

So, Let's all meet in the synagogue of your choosing or in someones home, lets live communally sharing our earnings and all our possessions and giving MOST of that away from the very beginning. Let's not pay any preachers or have ANY church buildings. Let's gather together MORE than we do and remember communion EACH AND EVERY time we get together, not just on Sundays. Let's LOVE EACH OTHER UNCONDITIONALLY!

Can we do all that??? Yes, we can, but WOULD we? You cannot have it both ways. If you choose to live BY THE LETTER OF THE LAW the way the pharasees did, then more power to you (reference the above) OR you can depend on God's Grace... I choose the latter.


 
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Kenneth Sublett
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63.84.81.93

OK, so....

January 3 2003, 10:33 PM 

Been sipping out of that new WINESKIN, huh?

While doing Fish and Chips you made a slip.

Jesus spoke UNDER THE LAW and contrary to the very meaning of the JUBILEE as a repudiation of the finished work of Lord Jesus Christ (full Deity), He also fulfilled the Passover. If you observe the "passover" you deliberately put yourself on the side of Egypt as the model of SIN and musical idolatry. You put yourself on the FAR side of the waters of baptism and the gift of the Spirit.

1Co.5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

We remember Christ as the SPIRITUAL PASSOVER, the Lamb of God and not the blood used to redeem the Israelites when God's better judgment decided that they should remain in their sin.

Paul took this BEFORE HIS DEATH beginning of the Lord's Supper to its completeness. They met EVERY FIRST day of the week and the fact that the Corinthians DID NOT meet for the Lord's Supper (not Passover) proves that they SHOULD Have met for that purpose.

Paul does not speak in terms of the Passover because that would repudiate the fact that the Lord's Supper was to remember Jesus Christ and not physical lambs. Furthermore, Paul said that we SHOW FORTH or preach the death of Christ.

I don't believe there is ANY GRACE to those who repudiate the direct commands of the Bible.

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

Titus 2:12 TEACHING us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

How is GRACE going to cover your sins which GRACE taught you not to do??

The Pharisees deliberately ignored the Written Words of Christ the Spirit (1 peter 1:11) SO THAT they could folow their own COMMANDMENTS OF MEN. Jesus said that following the traditions of men made WORSHIP VAIN. So, the Pharisees belittle the inspired Word of Christ.

Musical worship teams makes VAIN WORSHIP because it ignores the clear teaching of Scripture which Jesus connected to the perverted MOUTH religion of the Jews.

Jesus quotes the statement in both Isaiah and Ezekiel 33 where God defined the Jews as looking for a beautiful voice and well played musical instruments: they were treating both God and Ezekiel as homosexual, musical performers. Jesus used this PATTERN to describe the Pharisees.

No one including Jesus ever CONDEMNED anyone for obeying the Revealed Word. Pharisees could care less as long as their long prayer performance gave them the chance to "steal the homes of widows."

THERE IS NO GRACE for anyone RESTING on Grace to forgive deliberate sins. Grace is NOT UNLIMITED FORGIVEMENT FOR UNLIMITED SINS. Grace is the POWER (Charisma) of God which ENABLES you to conform to His image and His Words. Dismiss the Word then kiss GRACE goodby: Jesus is not a performance preacher or a "musical praiser's" playmate of the week.

If you are part of a "praise team" then by returning to the olden days your "team members" will be prostitutes and sodomites: Yep, right there piping trying to get Jesus into the groove. The GYMNASIUM and the musical, homosexual worship of Zeus-Dionysus the homosexual god of the NEW WINE IN NEW WINESKINS was the Abomination of Desolation standing in the Holy Places claiming to be GOD by claiming to musically "lead you into God's presence."

The end time Abomination of Desolation will be the same musicians or MUSES or a 9 member team under Apollo, Abaddon or Apollyon. He is also Saturn worshiped and condemned by Amos 5 and 6. His/her Chaldee number is 666. I just have to believe that Apollo has turned his LOCUSTS loose. They are Apollo's musical performers:

===============================================
Of musical heresy Clement notes what John may have warned against:

"The Locrian breaks a string. The grasshopper sprang on the neck of the instrument, and sang on it as on a branch; and the MINSTREL, adapting his strain to the grasshopper's song, made up for the want of the missing string. The grasshopper then was attracted by the song of Eunomos, as the fable represents, according to which also a brazen statue of Eunomos with his lyre, and the Locrian's ally in the contest, was erected at Pytho.

But of its own accord it flew to the LYRE, and of its own accord SANG, and was regarded by the Greeks as a musical PERFORMER.

But the dramas and the raving poets, now quite intoxicated, let us crown with ivy; and distracted outright as they are, in Bacchic fashion, with the SATYRS, and the frenzied RABBLE, and the rest of the DEMON crew, let us confine to Cithaeron and Helicon, now antiquated.
==================================================

The locusts or grasshoppers DON'T EAT GRASS: they SEPARATE those MARKED by music from those MARKED by the word or Spirit of Christ. If you sing and clap along you are, in the Hebrew, "driving a tent peg" into the head of Jesus Christ. That is the STING OF DEATH.

==================================================

Here is where it all began with a ZOE character:

Inanna bragged after stealing the gifts from EA or Satan type:

He gave me the art of lovemaking.
He gave me the art of kissing the phallus.
He gave me the art of prostitution.
He gave me the resounding musical instrument.
He gave me the art of song.
He gave me the art of the elder.
He gave me the kindling of strife

http://www.piney.com/BabEaGifts.htm

She is the end-time musical harlot of Revelation 18. She is EVE which Paul warned the women about. Eve is ZOE in the Greek translation. Eve was wholly seduced (sexually) by the serpent whose name identifies him/her as Lucifer, the harp-playing prostitute: the Musical Enchanter. Eve or ZOE then easily led Adam into the same seduction. Better be quiet Christian women because of we Adams you CANNOT be visible and "performance" audible without exercising SEXUAL AUTHORITY over us. Woe to the women who are USED by men to SEDUCE people to help pay the bills!

COMMERCE as well as musical performers is one of the MARKS of the end time Prostitute worship.

That is what PAUL knew that YOU don't know when he OUTLAWED both "music" and women exercising "authority" which is the Greek authentia which is "both erotic and murderous." Check the content of the EROTIC praise songs trying to make love to a Holy God. There is NO GRACE to cover you for deliberate sin and recommending it to others.

Gag! Gag!

Peter told Ananias and Sapphira that the property BELONGED TO THEM and there was no mandatory "communal living." Wrong fish shop.

Kenneth Sublett

 
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Huh
(no login)
68.52.227.102

So what have you been smoking

February 3 2003, 8:22 AM 

Ken,

First of all let me just say that what ever drugs you were on when you wrote your treatise on this site, don't do that any more. Second of all let me say that you are misquoting scripture and using the books of first and second oppinions for your arguments. Last I will just say you really need to learn how to read the bible for yourself and get away from these neo-nazi's who feed you this crap.

 
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Mark Waggoner
(no login)
66.141.123.41

Re: OK, so.....

January 4 2003, 2:37 PM 

First of all, Jesus did not institute the Passover and did not command observance of it. He did command, "this do in remembrance of me", when He offered the unleavened bread and the fruit of the vine. This activity and subsequent command did take place during the 3rd cup, of four, of the Passover meal; however, Jesus did NOT command observance of the Passover.

Secondly, where does our authority come from? Does Biblical silence authorize any activity? Did God have to specifically exclude the other 11 tribes when He commanded that the priests be Levites? Look up Hebrews 7:14, where it says that Moses said NOTHING concerning the tribe of Jesus being priests. Why did God kill Nadab and Abihu, during the act of worship, when they offered "strange fire" - that which the Lord did not command. Look at Leviticus 10:1, this was not a violation of a "thou shalt not" - it was an addition to an existing command. Paul wrote to the Corinthians in his first letter, "...that in us you may learn not to exceed what is written, in order that no one of you might become arrogant...", Chapter 4:6. If Biblical silence is permissive, there is no end as to what can be taught and practiced. Would this be consistent with the Scriptures? I think not.

Finally, who is trying to have it both ways? Whose authority are we going to follow? For it to be God's, it must be provided to us: "and whatever you do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus". We can sincerely look up to heaven and say, "I'm doing this for you, Lord"; however, that is not how we can assume authority. Jesus said, "not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven; but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven." Who is exhibiting the attitude of the Pharisee, here? The Pharisees were arrogant because they substituted their wisdom for God's, practiced showy piousness for self glorification, and bound traditions of men as commandments of God. My friend, God's grace comes with the responsibility, on our part, to live obediently to His rules - not ours. Christ's resurrection is the power through which we have received God's grace; however, it is conditional upon our obedience.

Mark Waggoner

 
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Joe McKnight
(no login)
67.30.225.178

The LORD's supper

January 5 2003, 7:02 AM 

Dear Brother Mark
Your comment about the Lord's supper being a Passover meal needs to be restudied. The timing was not right for it to be their Passover meal. I admit it is a small thing but it seem that litte lies grow into mustard plants. Email me if I can be of asistance.

To God be the Glory
Joe McKnight

 
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Mark Waggoner
(no login)
66.139.129.194

Re: The LORD's supper

January 5 2003, 3:45 PM 

Joe

I did NOT state and do NOT advocate that the Lord's Supper WAS a Passover meal; however, the Lord did institute it during the Passover meal that He observed with His disciples prior to His arrest.

As for the timing thing, yes we can get into quite a discussion here. Without going into a huge amount of detail, my opinion is that Christ observed the Passover earlier than the priests declared. There was much disagreement between the Jews as to when it needed to be observed. I believe that this meal occurred on our "Wednesday" and that Christ was crucified on Thursday, not Friday as tradition holds. The Jews would not enter the Praetorium when Jesus was before Pilate because they would be defiled and would not be able to eat the Passover (had not yet occurred), according to John 18:28. The Friday was the Passover, the "High Day" recorded by John 19:31, and was the day after the crucifixion. This would also provide the "three days and three nights" that Christ spent in the tomb (Matthew 12:40). Sabbath means "Holy Day", not necessarily "Saturday" as we sometimes assume. Every "Saturday" was a Sabbath; however, not every Sabbath was a "Saturday". The ancient Hebrew calendar has two years between AD 30 and AD 34 where the Passover did occur on a Friday, I'm sorry I can't remember which two years those were.

I apologize if my prior statements caused any confusion because there is a definite separation between the Passover and the Lord's Supper - even though the Lord's Supper was instituted during the Passover. I was merely attempting to refute an earlier comment relating to the authority, or lack thereof, of "praise teams" and keeping the Passover today. The 3rd cup of the Passover had nothing to do with unleavened bread as that was when the lamb was eaten. This cup, taken at the end of the meal, was also referred to as the "Cup of Blessing" - a phrase used by Paul to describe the Lord's Supper in I Corinthians 10:16.

Mark Waggoner

 
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Ed
(no login)
68.52.227.102

Lord's supper v. passover

February 3 2003, 8:34 AM 

Joe,

your statement is only half correct. Fact is that Matthew and Luke do say that the Last Supper was the passover meal, but John has it a couple of days before the passover. So do you exclude the books of Matthew and Luke to make John the only correct gospel, and if you do that does that mean that we can't really trust anything the bible has to say?

Perhaps the authors wrote the way they did to make a point. John has the Last supper before the passover because Jesus is going to die on the day of preparation. This is the day that the lambs were slaughtered for passover. At the beginning of the book John has John the Baptist call out "Behold the Lamb of God" in refering to Jesus. In Chapter 6 Jesus gets into a discourse about eating his flesh and drinking his blood and if you pay attention to that section you see that this was about passover time. The point is that John wants us to see Jesus as the passover lamb.

Matthew and Luke had different objectives though and so they have Jesus eating the passover with his disciples before his death.

It is also possible that Matthew and Luke see Jesus eating the passover with them because of the Galilean calendar had passover a couple of days earlier than the Judean calendar or vis-a-versa.

 
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Old Testament Scholar
(no login)
65.70.16.182

Excuse Me!

June 27 2003, 9:46 PM 

I guess the fact that the Gospels place the meal in the context of the Passover is inconsequential!!

 
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There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
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Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

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This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

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Here is the list of players;

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