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seekingtopleaseGodonly
(Login seekingtopleaseGodonly)
69.151.240.70

The getting to the "Root" of this unholy problem

April 15 2005, 10:02 AM 

Yes, it's all(sadly)true. I started attending Bammel Road Church of Christ last year because I was trying to find a congregation closer to my home that I could attend on a regular basis. But I could not continue to worship in this unGODly place. There are "NIV" PERversions of the Bible behind every pew in this place. This is how Satan and his change artists can get away with perverting the Church of Christ by substituting his counterfeit (so-called "MODERN" versions for the TRUE Word of God. You will rarely find the tried and tested King James translation being used by these change artist because the true Word of God would put a monkey wrench in their overall corrupted plans.

They have no concern for what God would have them to do. They don't care if the "NIV" has serious errors, additions, and subtractions which are strictly prohibited by the Lord (Rev. 22:18,19 KJ Trans. {don't look it up in the "NIV" because the Book of Life has been changed to the "tree" of life}). They are only concerned about making more money and unifying all faiths.

This is what happens where ever you take the true Word of God out of the equation and Satan knows it. That is why they will not use or even promote the use of the King James Translation. Beware of any Church that is using
these corupted "modern" versions and know that these versions are a "subtil" tool of Satan (Gen. 3:1) He changed the word of God in the beginning to cause us to sin and he knows that some of us are are still naive enough to fall for the "oldest trick in the Book" (literally).



 
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ShowMeDontTellMe
(Login seekingtopleaseGodonly)
69.151.240.70

Amen

April 15 2005, 12:36 PM 

I have read over your response to the person who calls himself "B". I myself always look for book bible and verse and you sir/mam, have provided that unlike "B". After careful review of your response all I could say was AMEN.

 
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seekingtopleaseGodonly
(Login seekingtopleaseGodonly)
69.151.240.70

Re: Sharphagion, anonymous, and B.

April 15 2005, 12:24 PM 

I will simply say to you what Jesus said once in Matthew 16:23 in the King James Translation and not Satan's corrupted modern versions such as the "NIV".

M't:16:23: But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

I notice you guys don't give many bible references, you only give your opinion, which means absolutely nothing to some one who only seeks to please God and not man or brothers in Christ or preacher's or elders. We should only value God's opinion and back it up we book, chapter and vs.. according to I Thess. 5:21-28.

1Th:5:21: Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
1Th:5:22: Abstain from all appearance of evil.
1Th:5:23: And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
1Th:5:24: Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.
1Th:5:25: Brethren, pray for us.
1Th:5:26: Greet all the brethren with an holy kiss.
1Th:5:27: I charge you by the Lord that this epistle be read unto all the holy brethren.
1Th:5:28: The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.


***If I were you "Anonymous", I would not be going around calling Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, {quote from you},

" The evil one loves our efforts to divide His church."

(or maybe you mean by "His church" - Satan's church" ??? Becuase in Matt 10:34-39. Jesus states,

M't:10:34: Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
M't:10:35: For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
M't:10:36: And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
M't:10:37: He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
M't:10:38: And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
M't:10:39: He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

We need to follow Jesus and stop helping Satan send people in mass quantities to Hell.

If I seem to be passionate about this subject, so was Jesus. I follow him, and so should you.




 
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B
(no login)
66.136.229.18

Jesus did not walk the earth in 1611

April 15 2005, 4:13 PM 

"I have read over your response to the person who calls himself "B". I myself always look for book bible and verse and you sir/mam, have provided that unlike "B". After careful review of your response all I could say was AMEN."



There weren't scriptures in my response because the complaints from his posts weren't SCRIPTURAL issues. That was the entire point. Where were the scriptures in the first post that I was responding to? I guess you would throw that one out, too.

And to the other poster, Jesus didn't say anything in the King James Bible. Jesus' words were written down in Greek by the writers of the New Testament. Each translation has its own strengths and weaknesses. Generally, the NASB is closer to the Greek than either the KJV or the NIV. Of course, my only statement about the NIV was that the Hitler comparison is ludicrous. Luckily, you were able to jump to about 17 conclusions based on that.

 
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David Rhoades
(no login)
68.154.166.116

Not So Fast

April 15 2005, 6:19 PM 

B..... You talk like you know what your talking about. Unfortunately, it's obvious to me you don't.

The NASB is just simply an early version of the NIV.

Understanding what has happend to the modern versions of the Bible is not an easy task.

If you depend on publishers like Zondervan to educate you, then it's a hopless task.

First... It's hard to get through to folks that there are TWO different versions of New Testament Greek text.

It's not a matter of translating it properly. Let me say it again, there are TWO versions!

Not only that, there are two or more versions of the Old Testament Text!

If you are studying from a Bible published since around 1900, chances are the the New Testament follows Westcot & Hort's corrupted version of the New Testament Greek text.

AND!!!

The Old Testament is Rudolph Kittel's 1937 corruption, Biblia Hebraica.

In case you are wondering, Kittel had a reason to corrupt the Old Testament. And yes he worked for Hitler.

You'll have to study to find the answer though.

http://www.concernedmembers.com/spiritualdeception.htm#3

 
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Ken Sublett
(no login)
63.84.81.40

NIV

April 15 2005, 10:27 PM 

While I once enjoyed reading the NIV I found that there are two places where it becomes a commentary, often translating a word ONCE to teach that at Baptism we PLEDGE, in the words of Max Lucado, to be good boys. Their view that baptism is BECAUSE we are already saved. The old word ANSWER to a good conscience (1 Pe 3:21) still works because God CALLS us and we ANSWER or call on God to wash away our sins at baptism. However, this less-common "answer" is ALWAYS to REQUEST something. That is, at baptism we REQUEST a good conscience which is A holy spirit. In the other 9 uses of the word they ALWAYS translate it ASK or something similar.

They botch most of the MUSICAL passages.

Eph 5:19 Speak to one another with psalms, hymns and spiritual songs. Sing and make MUSIC in your heart to the Lord,

In Colossians 3:16 the message is to sing WITH GRACE in the heart. Both melody and grace are Greek qualities of prose or poetry. There is no MUSIC connection. Melody is a "series of single notes" and this was "the normal inflection of the voice." That is why Paul commanded SPEAK which is antithetical to MAKE MUSIC. The evidence is clear in the ancient literature but the Britannica sums it up: "Melody as TUNEFULNESS belongs to the 19th century." TOO late to be the meaning of Paul.

This is also the FEMINIST Bible used by Willow Creek because it "comments" more than translates the role of women. At Willow Creek, even old, founding elders have to take the course from a woman and "Gladly covenant to be under the rule of female elders." That is something like FEMALE HUSBANDS.

And COME TO THINK OF IT, these are THE issues people have used to deliberately SOW DISCORD.

Ken

 
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SeekingtopleaseGodonly
(Login seekingtopleaseGodonly)
69.151.240.70

Re: Not So Fast

April 15 2005, 10:52 PM 

Well said David,

Thank God that there is someone else here that is a lover of the truth.

*****************************************************
Re: B. [ " Jesus did not walk the earth in 1611 " ]


Do you even think about the things that you are writing? It doesn't even make sense.

Does Jesus Christ have to be "physically" present during the time of a translation in order for it to be accurate???

Was Jesus Christ physically 'walking the earth' at the time that the New Testament was being written??? How about during the writing of the Old Testament???

*****************************************************
Re: B. [And to the other poster, Jesus didn't say anything in the King James Bible. Jesus' words were written down in Greek by the writers of the New Testament. Each translation has its own strengths and weaknesses. Generally, the NASB is closer to the Greek than either the KJV or the NIV. Of course, my only statement about the NIV was that the Hitler comparison is ludicrous. Luckily, you were able to jump to about 17 conclusions based on that.]

*****************************************************

Question: Why are the "NASB" and "NIV" published by the same company that publishes the Satanic bible???

*****************************************************
(from a site on the web)

From their (Zondervan) own web site:

Zondervan was founded in 1931 in Grandville, Michigan, a suburb of Grand Rapids, by brothers P.J. (Pat) and Bernie Zondervan.

Zondervan first published the NIV New Testament in partnership with the International Bible Society in 1973 and the complete NIV Bible in 1978.

In 1988, Zondervan became a division of HarperCollinsPublishers, one of the largest publishers in the world.

ZONDERVAN IS OWNED BY HARPERCOLLINS!


The NIV Bible and the Satanic Bible are printed by the same parent company, Harpercollins!


So are you going to listen to the devil and his little helpers about the NIV?

**************************************************************
**************************************************************

***Let's see how "accurate" your beloved "nasb" version is:
(from another site on the web)



Perversions in the NIV & NASB

Can God Lie?


Mark 1:1-3


NIV


The beginning of the gospel about Jesus Christ, the Son of God.
It is written in Isaiah the prophet: "I will send my messenger ahead of you, who will prepare your way"
"a voice of one calling in the desert, `Prepare the way for the Lord, make straight paths for him.'"



NASB


The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God.
As it is written in Isaiah the prophet: ""BEHOLD, I SEND MY MESSENGER AHEAD OF YOU, WHO WILL PREPARE YOUR WAY;
THE VOICE OF ONE CRYING IN THE WILDERNESS, "MAKE READY THE WAY OF THE LORD, MAKE HIS PATHS STRAIGHT.'''



But wait!
"Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me"
is not found in Isaiah! It is found in Malachi 3:1!!


"The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord..." is found in Isaiah 40:3
Even the NIV and NASB footnotes admit this! Click here to see.


But what does the KJV say?


"As it is written in the prophets..." (Mark 1:2)


Isaiah + Malachi does not equal "Isaiah the prophet."


Isaiah + Malachi equals "the prophets."


Apparently the modern scholsrs can't tell the differnece between "Isaiah" and "the prophets."
If they didn't they wouldn't have made this contradiction in their translations.


But, what if the manuscripts they used are in error?
What if they really do say "Isaiah the prophet?"
Can these manuscripts be trusted?


Can God lie?


"Thy word is TRUE" Psalm 119:160 "...God, that CANNOT LIE..." Titus 1:2



Another lie in the NASB:


John 7:6-11


6 So Jesus said to them, " My time is not yet here, but your time is always opportune.
7 " The world cannot hate you, but it hates Me because I testify of it, that its deeds are evil.
8 "Go up to the feast yourselves; I do not go up to this feast because My time has not yet fully come.''
9 Having said these things to them, He stayed in Galilee.
10 But when His brothers had gone up to the feast, then He Himself also went up, not publicly, but as if, in secret.
11 So the Jews were seeking Him at the feast and were saying, "Where is He?''


In verse 8, Jesus is saying that He is not going to the feast, but in verse 10, He went anyway.
This makes it appear that Jesus lied.


The King James says:


6 Then Jesus said unto them, My time is not yet come: But your time is alway ready.
7 The world cannot hate you; but me it hateth, because I testify of it, that the works thereof are evil.
8 Go ye up unto this feast:
I go not up yet unto this feast: for my time is not yet full come.
9 When he had said these words unto them, he abode still in Galilee.
10 But when his brethren were gone up, then went he also up unto the feast, not openly, but as it were in secret.
11 Then the Jews sought him at the feast, and said, Where is he?


It is only a one-word difference, but in the KJV, the Lord Jesus is NOT made a liar.


If debating this minor change seems unimportant to you,
one new Christian almost lost his faith over it.
See http://www.balaams-ass.com/journal/resource/lie-dice.htm


Is Jesus in Danger of Judgment?
Matthew 5:22


"But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment..." KJV


"But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment..." NIV


"But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court..." NASB


The newer versions omit "without a cause."
Another "minor" change, right?
Read Mark 3:5


He [Jesus] looked around at them in anger and, deeply distressed at their stubborn hearts..." NIV
After looking around at them with anger, grieved at their hardness of heart, He said to the man..." NASB


In this verse, Jesus was angry, but he had a reason, "the hardness of their hearts."
In the NIV and NASB, anyone who is angry is in danger of judgment, period.
This would make our Lord Jesus in danger of judgment!!!


Blasphemy in the new Bible versions:


NIV calls Satan "Jesus!!!"


Lucifer is another name for Satan. It is found once in the Bible:
Isaiah 14:12:
How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!
how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! KJV


But the NIV and the NASB (and others) leave it out:
How you have fallen from heaven, O morning star, son of the dawn!
You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations! NIV


How you have fallen from heaven, O star of the morning, son of the dawn!
You have been cut down to the earth, You who have weakened the nations! NASB


But wait? Who is the "morning star?"
The NIV reveals that the morning star is none other than Jesus Christ:

"I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star." Revelation 22:16,
But wait! Didn't the NIV say that the morning star is an evil creature that is fallen from heaven?
Didn't the NIV replace "Lucifer" with "morning star?"
Jesus and Satan are one in the NIV!


But wait, you say. The Isaiah 12:14 "morning star" is not capitalized, but the Revelation 22:16 one is.
They have to be different then, because of this.
Wrong. The NIV also calls Jesus, "morning star" with all lower case letters:



And we have the word of the prophets made more certain, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. 2 Peter 1:19,
I will also give him the morning star. Revelation 2:28--


What about the NASB?
The NASB changes "Lucifer" to "star of the morning" which is means the exact same thing as "morning star." They are gramatical equivalants. The NASB, in effect, makes Satan Jesus. too! This is much more subtle than the NIV, but it is still there.
Another thing about this confusion over the identity of "morning star" the Bible says that God is not the author of confusion (1 Corintians 14:33). If God is not the author of confusion, then who is behind these new "Bible" versions? Who would want us to believe that Jesus and Satan are one?
*********************************************************

Now, do you still think that the "NASB" version is more accurate than the King James translation?





 
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B
(no login)
208.191.255.212

Re: Not So Fast

April 16 2005, 3:24 PM 

Yes, I do.

If I had an anti-KJV agenda, I have no doubt I could waste your time with a similar list. One example that comes to mind is the Romans 6:2, which in the KJV begins "God forbid." Neither of those words appear in the Greek. I guess that's O.K., because King James authorized it, not some committee? Was King James a member of the C.O.C.? Surely, you expect to see this great man in heaven, right?

The NIV translators took more liberties than I would have, but I still find value in it. The NASB is a strong translation in my opinion. I think it's naive to assume that any single translation is "authorized" simply because someone decided to write the word "authorized" on the cover nearly 400 years ago (and 1600 years after Jesus walked the earth. Contrary to popular belief, GOD HIMSELF DID NOT PUT THE WORD AUTHORIZED ON THE COVER OF YOUR KJV.

And on the Harper Collins/Zondervan thing...that buyout took place long after these translations were completed. I don't deny the power of Satan in our world, but I think you're stretching a little on that one.

I don't mind the KJV. It's the first version I read from, and I still consult it (and other versions). However, I don't believe it is the only version of value.

Every translation has it's strenghts and weaknesses.

 
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CBM
(no login)
63.146.226.98

Re: Not So Fast

May 11 2005, 12:21 PM 

I keep reading on this site that the NIV is Satan's Bible because it is published by Zondervan. That is not a very good argument because Zondervan also publishes a King James Bible.

Also, if the King James is the only correct translation, then why was the apocrapha included the the 1611 version of the King James and later taken out?????

 
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SeekingtopleaseGodonly
(Login seekingtopleaseGodonly)
69.151.247.65

Re: "B." [Not So Fast]

April 17 2005, 3:07 PM 

Re: “B.” [Re: Not So Fast]


You really do need Jesus!



You need to stop believing everything that you hear or read and start praying or seeking the help of the Lord to guide you in a truth seeking mission. You like so many others are spiritually blind and don’t even know it.

Seek God’s wisdom and not man’s wisdom:


1Co:2:4: And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:

1Co:2:5: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

1Co:2:11: For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

1Co:2:12: Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

1Co:2:13: Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

1Co:2:14: But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

1Co:2:16: For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.>>>>>>>>>>>>



Give God credit for being able to provide people who speak languages/tongues other than Greek with an accurate translation of His Word. Have faith in God’s abilities. Know that He is able. Will God hold us accountable to obey him if he does not provide us with his pure Word. English is the universal language of world. Do you think that God would fail to supply his word in a pure English translation?

God has and will continue to provide!!!

*****************************************************************************
Now in reference to:

[If I had an anti-KJV agenda, I have no doubt I could waste your time with a similar list.]

I want you to “waste” my time with your list!

Re:

[One example that comes to mind is the Romans 6:2, which in the KJV begins "God forbid." Neither of those words appear in the Greek. I guess that's O.K., because King James authorized it, not some committee? Was King James a member of the C.O.C.? Surely, you expect to see this great man in heaven, right?]


Prove it!!! Unlike you, I don’t believe every thing I hear or read!

I have faith in God!

Are you trying to imply that God should forbid sin? the Bible says:


Eph:5:6: Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
Eph:5:7: Be not ye therefore partakers with them.
Eph:5:8: For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:
Eph:5:9: (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth;)
Eph:5:10: Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord.
Eph:5:11: And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.
Eph:5:12: For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret.
Eph:5:13: But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light.
Eph:5:14: Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.
Eph:5:15: See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise,
Eph:5:16: Redeeming the time, because the days are evil.
Eph:5:17: Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is.>>>>>>>>>>>
*****************************************************************************

Re:

[I think it's naive to assume that any single translation is "authorized" simply because someone decided to write the word "authorized" on the cover nearly 400 years ago (and 1600 years after Jesus walked the earth. Contrary to popular belief, GOD HIMSELF DID NOT PUT THE WORD AUTHORIZED ON THE COVER OF YOUR KJV.]



It does not matter, let me say it again, IT DOES NOT MATTER what you “think”. Use God’s wisdom and not your own:



Jer:8:9: The wise men are ashamed, they are dismayed and taken: lo, they have rejected the word of the LORD; and what wisdom is in them?

1Co:1:20: Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?

1Co:2:5: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

1Co:2:6: Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

1Co:2:7: But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

1Co:2:13: Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

1Co:3:19: For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.>>>>>>>>>

*****************************************************************************

I see that you still “think” (by your wisdom) that God or Jesus Christ have to be “Physically” present in order for the translation of the Bible to be guided by the “Spirit of God”. The Word of God states:

Joh:14:17: Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

1Co:2:11: For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

1Co:2:12: Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

1Co:2:14: But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.>>>>>>>>>>>




I don’t know if the translator’s of 1611 were members of the Church of Christ. But I do know that the fruit of their labor is the pure Word of God and hat it has been instrumental in bring English speaking souls to Jesus for the last 400 years myself included.


Re:

[And on the Harper Collins/Zondervan thing...that buyout took place long after these translations were completed. I don't deny the power of Satan in our world, but I think you're stretching a little on that one]


Why would a Company (Harper Collins/Zondervan ) that promotes Satan’s “Satanic bible” be interested in promoting sometime that would aid God in saving souls (ie. NIV, NASB, ect.).

Satan would only be interested in promoting a bible that would be of help to himself.

A bible (NIV, NASB, “modern versions”) that would “subtly” (and unknowingly) lead people to Hell!

That’s what Satan does!

People don’t give Satan enough credit.

He has a lot of experience at what he does.

He has no desire to bring souls to Christ by providing us a pure Word of God and he will never spread God’s True Word.

He will never OWN God's true Word!

*****************************************************************************

Re:



[I don't mind the KJV. It's the first version I read from, and I still consult it (and other versions). However, I don't believe it is the only version of value.]


Well you wrote this earlier in your other message:



Quote:

[Generally, the NASB is closer to the Greek than either the KJV or the NIV.]



These are your words.


Why isn’t the “NASB” the first “version” you use???



I also believe that the “modern versions (NIV, NASB, NKJV, and others are very valuable!!

But unfortunately they are only of great value to Satan and his purpose!

That’s why he owns them!

They are his!

They do their job, and they are very effective!

You have proven this point………



Re:


[Every translation has it’s strenghts and weaknesses.]


God’s Word is not weak. Man is weak without God’s true word:

Heb:4:12: For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Lu:2:35: (Yea, a sword shall pierce through thy own soul also,) that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.>>>>>>>>>



In Jesus name.

 
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B
(no login)
65.70.28.56

Re: "B." [Not So Fast]

April 18 2005, 12:25 PM 

I'll respond to one item you misunderstood. "It's the first version I read from." Read is supposed to be past tense. (They're spelled the same.) My first Bible was a KJV. I do currently consult that version (among other versions), but it is not the one I take with me on Sundays.


I think if you read through your post, you will find that all the scriptures referring to God's word don't mention a particular version. Although your opinion (one of your favorite phrases) is that those apply to the KJV, it is mine that it applies to God's written word in general. If we were in Mexico, it would apply to the Spanish Bible (which pre-dates the KJV). It certainly didn't apply to the KJV to the people who first wrote the words you quoted, since the KJV was not available until 15 centuries after those people were all dead.

I do not believe that a translation had to be made when Jesus was on the earth for it to be O.K. I never said that, although you have inferred more than once that I did. It would be difficult for a translation to be made while he was on the earth, SINCE THE ORIGINAL HAD NOT EVEN BEEN WRITTEN YET. I do, however, think that it's incredibly naive to think that the KJV is the only version of value or somehow above investigation of the Greek text.


Open your eyes.


"ALL Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thouroughly equipped for every good work." -- II Timothy 3:16-17 (and before you even say it, the word "perfect" in the KJV in verse 17--nowhere to be found in the Greek; and all of the "for"s missing from the NIV--in the Greek text; I'm open minded enough to be bothered by both of those.)

 
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Anonymous
(no login)
63.89.83.220

Shocked!

April 18 2005, 1:41 PM 

I am shocked and appalled at the statement I just read. I do not belong to this church but everything I read sounds like this church is doing a great deal of good.

Will any of these points you have hit upon keep us from getting to Heaven? NO! Shame on you!

Maybe you are the one that needs to re-read the Bible. You are too hung up on tradition rather that gospel.

The Church of Christ is dying because of people like you. I suppose you think your type of Church of Christ are the only people that will make it in to Heaven!


 
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seekingtopleaseGodonly
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re: "B." - Not So Fast

April 21 2005, 12:15 AM 

The Anvil-1611-God's Word

Last eve I passed beside a blacksmith's door,
And heard the anvil ring the vesper chime;
Then, looking in, I saw upon the floor
Old hammers, worn with beating years of time.

"How many anvils have you had," said I,
"To wear and batter all these hammers so?"
"Just one," said he, and then, with twinkling eye,
"The anvil wears the hammers out you know."

And so, thought I, the anvil of God's Word,
For ages skeptic blows have beat upon;
Yet, though the noise of falling blows was heard,
The anvil is unharmed-the hammers gone.

Author unknown
******************************************************************************
In Reference to: “B.” last response:


[I'll respond to one item you misunderstood. "It's the first version I read from." Read is supposed to be past tense. (They're spelled the same.) My first Bible was a KJV. I do currently consult that version (among other versions), but it is not the one I take with me on Sundays.]


[I do, however, think that it's incredibly naive to think that the KJV is the only version of value or somehow above investigation of the Greek text.]



***You and many, many others hold this view on the use of these “modern versions” but just because a large number of people have a particular view on a subject (especially God’s Word) it doesn’t mean that particular view is correct:


M't:7:13: Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
M't:7:14: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
M't:7:15: Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.>>>>>>>>>>>


***I suggest you do some research on this subject and pray that God will direct your path in order to find the truth about the history of the Bible.

This site has a link to one of the best sources for the history of Bible translations.

http://www.concernedmembers.com/spiritualdeception.htm#3


It is very detailed and very informative. We should all study as stated in God’s Word:


2Tm:2:14: Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.
2Tm:2:15: Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
2Tm:2:16: But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.>>>>>>>>>>

*******************************************************************

In reference to an early response by “B.”:


[And to the other poster, Jesus didn't say anything in the King James Bible. Jesus' words were written down in Greek by the writers of the New Testament.]


(The following passage was taken from the web site – “Can a Translation be Inspired?” www.psalm118.org/158_29.asp)

Which language did the Lord Jesus Christ speak while He was here on earth, Hebrew, Greek, Aramaic or a combination of the three? No one knows for sure, but we do know that He spoke to Paul in the Hebrew tongue yet His words were translated into Greek. "And when we were all fallen to the ground, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul. why persecutest thou me? It is hard for thee to kick against the pricks." There then follows another four long verses all spoken in the Hebrew tongue by our Lord, yet none of it is recorded in Hebrew but is translated into another language.
" And that from a child thou hast known the HOLY SCRIPTURES, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. ALL SCRIPTURE IS GIVEN BY INSPIRATION OF GOD, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness." 2 Timothy 3:15,16.
It should be noted that Timothy did not have "the originals" yet what he had in his home is referred to as inspired scripture. In fact, in no case of all the references in the New Testament to the Scriptures that people read and believed, is it ever referring to "the originals only".
So when you hear someone tell you with firm conviction: "No translation can be inspired. Only the originals were inspired" you should know that he didn't get this teaching out of the Bible or from God. If a professing Christian chooses not to believe in the possibility of an inspired translation, he does so contrary to many God given examples in the Bible itself.
(THIS IS ONLY A PORTION. Go to this site to get the full passage.)
**************************************************************************
In reference to:


[Open your eyes.]


["ALL Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thouroughly equipped for every good work." -- II Timothy 3:16-17 (and before you even say it, the word "perfect" in the KJV in verse 17--nowhere to be found in the Greek; and all of the "for"s missing from the NIV--in the Greek text; I'm open minded enough to be bothered by both of those.)]



***It’s kind of odd hearing someone who is “spiritual blind” tell someone else to;

l‘ Open your eyes’ .]

***I can see why you and others who use these “modern versions” don’t include scriptures in their writings when I take a closer look at the verses from the “NIV” that you have just given. It is just a bunch of confusion!!!

For instance, what does [“God-breathed”] really mean???

Does it mean that all scripture is spoken by God???

Surely it does mean that!!!

Hey, wait a minute, the word “breathe” is defined as “1. unvoiced phonetics pronounced without vibrating the vocal cords” or 2. breathing with a particular type of breathing. {Encartha Dictionary: English (North America)}

So what does this verse mean??? Who Knows???

The “NIV” verses are very confusing!!!

Surely God could not be the author of this confusion right!!! Let’s see what the Bible says about confusion:


1Co:14:33: For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>


***The verses from the King James Translation are not confusing.

The verses are very clear and accurate:


2Tm:3:15: And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.


2Tm:3:16: All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Tm:3:17: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.>>>>>>>>>>>>>

*** KJ translation states “given by inspiration of God”, now that actually makes sense!!! Thank God!!!

*******************************************************************
*******************************************************************

(From a site on the web - C:\Documents and Settings\Owner\Desktop\kjv2textus.htm)
If the Bible is indeed preserved and not locked up in the originals, then where is it? If God intended for His people to actually be able to use His Word and proudly proclaim "the law of the LORD is perfect" (Psalm 19:7) then which version is correct? Or are they all correct?
Is there even a difference between the KJV and other versions? The answer is yes. No great study would be needed to come to the conclusion that the KJV is very different from other Bibles (there are literally thousands of differences). There are many instances where words, verses, and even entire portions of Scripture are omitted. Why are these parts of Scripture omitted? Because the translators use a different source. Every version since the KJV has used this different source.
The King James Bible was translated from a group of manuscripts called the Texus Receptus ("TR"). The TR has other names by which it is referred, but the matter at hand is not its name, rather its accuracy. Every other version has been translated from a group of manuscripts called the Minority Text which comes mainly from two old books (called codices). The names of these are the Codex Sinaiticus and the Codex Vaticanus. The Minority Text also has other names, but that's not important for our purposes (some say that the New King James Version comes from the TR - mostly from the people who publish it - but the New King James Version has over 100,000 different words than the KJV and in almost every case they match exactly with the other versions of the Bible).
Where did the translators get this Minority Text? The Codex Vaticanus was found on a shelf in the library of the pope. The Sinaiticus was found in a monastery at the foot of mount Sinai in the garbage can with other papers waiting to be burned. Both were found in the mid-1800s.
So here is the question, did God preserve His Word like He promised in the hands of His people (the KJV) or did His Word rest on the pope's shelf and in a garbage can? If the latter is to be believed, then you must admit that God made His Word disappear for 1500 years! If this were the case, then faith would have disappeared as well.
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. 1
For the Bible says that "faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." If the Word of God was absent, then so was faith. Any student of religious history knows that this was not the case. Faith flourished in the hearts of men despite the Dark Ages and the attacks of Satan. Without the Bible present, there is no faith, without faith God is not pleased.
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. 2
So would God deprive man of the only thing that lets man please Him?
One might make the argument that the King James was the Word of God for the English speaking people until the newer versions appeared and put the Bible into a more modern form. The only problem with that theory is the fact that, as stated before, the text from which the KJV is translated is different than the text the other versions use. So it's not a matter of translation, but from what the Bible was translated. }
************************************************************************

***If you want to rely on Greek or Hebrew references that should have been left ‘in the trash can’ or one that was found left on the ‘shelf of the pope’ (see about passage) than go right ahead. God gives us the freedom to do foolish things. But remember, God will also hold us accountable for the foolish things that we do unless we repent:
Re:2:15: So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate.
Re:2:16: Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.
Re:2:17: He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches;>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

***By using (AND/OR PROMOTING THE USE OF ) all these different “MODERN versions” you are in essence serving two ‘Masters’ and this is what the Bible says about doing that:

M't:6:24: No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
************************************************************************
***Be very careful how you handle God’s business!

In Jesus’ name.


 
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seekingtopleaseGodonly
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69.151.250.207

Re: Shocked!

April 21 2005, 12:20 PM 

Re: Shocked!
[I am shocked and appalled at the statement I just read. I do not belong to this church but everything I read sounds like this church is doing a great deal of good.]


***Just because a Church does some good are even a whole lot of good, it still must obey the Word of God. (The Red Cross “does a lot of good’) Unfortunately ‘doing a lot of good’ want get you into Heaven:


M't:7:13: Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
M't:7:14: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
M't:7:15: Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
M't:7:16: Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
M't:7:17: Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
M't:7:18: A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
M't:7:19: Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
M't:7:20: Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
M't:7:21: Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
M't:7:22: Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
M't:7:23: And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

***I am glad that you were shocked. It is better to be shocked now while there is still warm blood running thru your veins, than to be shocked while standing before the throne of God in the Day of Judgment.
**************************************************************************
Re:
[Will any of these points you have hit upon keep us from getting to Heaven? NO! Shame on you!]


*** I don’t know which points you are referring to that are not important to salvation, so I’ll just let Jesus Christ speak from God’s Word when he was tempted of the Devil:


Lu:4:4: And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.>>>>>>>>>>>>>
**************************************************************************
Re: [Maybe you are the one that needs to re-read the Bible. You are too hung up on tradition rather that gospel.]

***I took your suggestion and begin to re-read the bible (again) and came across this:

2Th:3:6: Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.
2Th:3:7: For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you;
2Th:3:8: Neither did we eat any man's bread for nought; but wrought with labour and travail night and day, that we might not be chargeable to any of you:
2Th:3:9: Not because we have not power, but to make ourselves an ensample unto you to follow us.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

***Great suggestion, I recommend it to everyone, including you.

You see you were right; I am hung up on a tradition; The Tradition that was set by the early Christians who were lead by the Holy Spirit; a Tradition that needs no modifications or ‘modern’ day improvements.
**************************************************************************
Re:
[The Church of Christ is dying because of people like you. I suppose you think your type of Church of Christ are the only people that will make it in to Heaven!]


***I do not decide who will make it to Heaven. I can only do my part to spread God’s Word. Jesus Christ will decide who enters into Heaven.
If the Church of Christ is having problems (it is not dying) it is not because some Christians are speaking out about a congregation’s wrong doings, it is because of the counterfeit bibles that Satan has flooded it with that cause us to lose faith in the Word of God and follow the traditions of men or create new traditions that are not approved or commanded or instructed by the Word of God:

1Tm:4:1: Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
1Tm:4:2: Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
Heb:11:6: But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
Ro:10:17: So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
1Tm:4:7: But refuse profane and old wives' fables, and exercise thyself rather unto godliness.
1Tm:4:8: For bodily exercise profiteth little: but godliness is profitable unto all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come.
1Tm:4:9: This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation.
1Tm:4:10: For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
1Tm:4:11: These things command and teach. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

In Jesus’ name.





 
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seekingtopleaseGodonly
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In the flesh - The Ultimate Bible Test

April 24 2005, 12:00 AM 

In The Flesh – The Ultimate Bible Test

2Jo 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

Test your “modern bible” (i.e. NIV, NKJV, RSV, LB, NASB…) to see if it was written by the inspiration God (2 Tim. 3:16) or by the inspiration of “a deceiver and an antichrist”; If we desire to please God we must have the pure Word of God. May the Holy Spirit guide you in all truth. If the words of the “modern bible” that you use were written by the inspiration of “a deceiver and an antichrist”, then it will not be able to state that “Jesus Christ is come in the flesh” (present tense). Always look for subtle additions and subtractions, and errors that lead to contractions and confusions. Remember 1Co 14:33, For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints and 1Jo:4:1: Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

Instructions (Pray for guidance, read the following rules, begin the test strictly applying these rules)

The following 7 Bible verses are found in the King James Translation. Check your “modern bible” for these scriptures and see if the version that you are using can past the test. The part of the verse that states that “Jesus Christ is come in the flesh” is underlined. Check to see if the scripture in your “modern bible” correctly states that “Jesus Christ is come in the flesh.”(It must show PRESENT tense – it cannot read as PAST tense – it must state “IN THE FLESH” [It can not state in his body; ‘body” and “flesh” do not have the same meaning]); if it does not state it correctly, it fails the test and cannot be considered (in any way) the pure WORD OF GOD according to 1 Jo 4:3.

1. Ro 8:3 -- For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

2. 1Ti 3:16 -- And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

3. 1Pe 3:18 -- For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

4. 1Pe 4:1 -- Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;

5. 1Jo 4:2 -- Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

6. 1Jo 4:3 -- And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

7. 2Jo 1:7 -- For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

Does your Bible translation(s) past the test?


(Written by Nason Lee Melton by the grace of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ)


 
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seekingtopleaseGodonly
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In the flesh - The Ultimate Bible Test (revised)

April 24 2005, 10:37 PM 

In The Flesh – The Ultimate Bible Test

2Jo 1:7For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
Test your “modern bible” (i.e. NIV, NKJV, RSV, LB, NASB…) to see if it was written by the inspiration God (2 Tim. 3:16) or by the inspiration of “a deceiver and an antichrist”; If we desire to please God we must have the pure Word of God. May the Holy Spirit guide you in all truth. If the words of the “modern bible” that you use were written by the inspiration of “a deceiver and an antichrist”, then it will not be able to state that “Jesus Christ is come in the flesh” (present tense). Always look for subtle additions, subtractions, and errors that lead to contradictions and confusions. Remember 1Co 14:33, For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints and 1Jo:4:1: Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

Instructions (Pray for guidance, read the following rules, begin the test strictly applying these rules)
The following 7 Bible verses are found in the King James Translation. Check your “modern bible” for these scriptures and see if the version that you are using can pass the test. The part of the verse that states that “Jesus Christ is come in the flesh” is underlined. Check to see if the scripture in your “modern bible” correctly states that “Jesus Christ is come in the flesh.”(It must show PRESENT tense – it cannot read as PAST tense – it must state “IN THE FLESH” [not in his body; “body” and “flesh” do not have the same meaning]); if it does not state it correctly, it fails the test and cannot be considered (in any way) the pure WORD OF GOD according to 1 Jo 4:3.

1. Ro 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

2. 1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

3. 1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

4. 1Pe 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;

5. 1Jo 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

6. 1Jo 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

7. 2Jo 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

Does your Bible translation(s) pass the test?


(Written by Nason Lee Melton by the grace of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ)


 
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Big Mike Lewis
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Re: In the flesh - The Ultimate Bible Test (revised)

April 29 2005, 6:46 PM 

Oh brother...your KJV is full of error and bias also...

 
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seekingtopleaseGodonly
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69.151.240.25

Re: Big Mike Lewis

April 30 2005, 11:10 PM 

Response to: “Big Mike Lewis”

First of all, it is not my KJV. I didn’t write it; I didn't translate it; and I sure don’t own it. Nobody does.


Mike, if you’re going to make a bold statement like this:




[Oh brother...your KJV is full of error and bias also...]



Then you need to PROVE that the KJ translation is "full of errors", otherwise your statement (opinion) means absolutely nothing!


1Th:5:21: Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.>>>>>>>


(By the way, are you calling God Word "bias"?...Well, I guess God has a right to be bias, You know, being God and all...)



By your response I take it that your bible translation failed the test.

If it did fail the test; then do you realize that you are using a bible version that is not inspired by God? You can choose to continue to use a bible version inspired by an Anti-Christ even after you know the truth, God gives us the freedom to make stupid decisions; but know that God also holds us accountable for the stupid decisions that we make.



Jas:4:17: Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.>>>>>>>>>


Please don’t be another one of Satan’s helpers. Believe me, he already has enough help!


In Jesus’ name.








 
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B
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65.71.152.113

Re: Big Mike Lewis

May 1 2005, 10:00 PM 

Since you keep calling the KJV "God's word" while pointing out the flaws in the NIV, you shouldn't get terribly insulted when someone does the exact same thing to you.

I did point out a flaw: the use in the KJV of the phraze "God forbid" in several locations (including Romans 6:2) where the words meaning "God" or "forbid" do not appear in the Greek. There are others, but there's not much point in creating a list for someone who will only continue to refer to the KJV as "God's word" as if the NAS, NIV, ASV, RSV, etc. are not.

 
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Anonymous
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205.188.116.204

Re: Big Mike Lewis

May 10 2005, 12:04 AM 

a brief look at the hstory of the King James Bible.


1611 King James Bible (Authorized Version)
King James I appointed 54 of the best scholars in England to revise the Bishop's Bible. It took them seven years. The authorities authorized this translation which had enormous influence on the minds of people, and on English literature. The New Testament in the King James translation was taken, with few exceptions, from the Catholic Douay Rheims translation, which was completed 29 years previously. Like all translations, the King James translation had errors in it. In the last century, Protestant Scripture scholars met to come up with a better translation because there were several thousand errors in the existing King James translation.
1881-1885 Revised Version
The King James version was revised.
1952 Revised Standard Version
King James translation again revised.
1970 New English Bible
1973 New International Version
1980 New King James Version
1986 New Revised Standard Version

If it is the only correct version of the Bible, why did it have to be revised so many times and who authorized it.


 
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...........................THE BOOK

What Happened At the Madison Church of Christ?


There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

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The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

To even start to understand whats happening here, you must read the background materials in the first of the book.

This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our web site; http://www.concernedmembers.com/madison

Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
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Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)
 

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