Fourth Ave Church of Christ, Franklin, TNMarch 12 2003 at 1:20 PM
|Anonymous (no login)|
from IP address 184.108.40.206
To date, we've heard the now infamous "Get Over It" speech and the Elders are now looking to hire a professional "Worship Minister." I had not heard of the Community Church movement up until very recently, but having lived in Nashville all my life I have been aware of the happenings at Madison Church of Christ, West End Church of Christ and the split in Hendersonville. I am not 100% that this movement is what is happening within our Eldership, but it sure smells like it. The general feeling is that several of the Elders are the fuel behind this and the rest have been influenced to varying degrees. Most of our Elders have been in place for years, so this has been very upsetting and confusing for many. Any thoughts?
Re: Fourth Ave Church of Christ, Franklin, TN
|March 12 2003, 7:55 PM |
Two Sundays ago the Elders informed the congregation that they were seeking to employ a "Worship Minister" in order to reach the un-churched of our city and to give God our very best. Of course the majority of the congregation was left wondering what a Worship Minister was, as this topic had never been discussed by the congregation at-large. (First Alarm went off).
I was recently directed to this website and up until now was not aware of the Community Church movement. I'm not 100% that this is what is happening at our congregation, but these events have left a large number of our congregation wondering what is going on and articles and information from this site are now floating around concerned members. The one item that made my blood run cold was the mention of a "Get Over It" speech - we've gotten that forceful message from the Elders recently (Second Alarm going off). Not to mention the secrecy of the plan to hire a Worship Leader -which includes extra lighting, sound and video components as well as praise teams. With secrecy being a large component of this equation, trust has become a big issue, leaving many in a "holding pattern," unwilling to give fully of their time, resources and heart.
Additionally, stewardship has become a hot topic among concerned members, who are frankly dumbfounded by this type of spending. It seems we have been worshipping in "spirit and in truth" for centuries without lighting and sound technicians. I'd love to have seen the apostles following Jesus around with a trailer full of props and assistants. It seems to me He did more than just fine without any such aid. This type of decision-making is completely foreign to my lifelong experience in the Church, as I think it should. The Elders have stated that they want to transform us from a "traditional" Church of Christ to a "liberal" Church of Christ. It's just amazing - I don't remember the congregation deciding that! All said, my family is planning a quick exit as it's high time we finally act on what our "gut" has been telling us for some time. The congregation has amazing potential, which has made our decision even more heart-wrenching.
|March 13 2003, 7:11 AM |
What do you want to hear, that your church is about to experience a new rebirth? Well get ready. And what you need to do is to rally the like minded brothers and you need to not put up with the false changes and stand your ground. If you do not the place will be lost. Read that: the property will be lost to these liberal people. And if the property is taken, please tell them to have the decency to take the pictures of famous preachers that are on the walls of the library and to send the library of restoration literature that you have to some place that respects it. Those that will stay will not respect it.
Rally Under Way
|March 13 2003, 8:40 AM |
We currently have a petition called a "Declaration of Concern" we will be presenting to the Elders. We have at least 100 signatures now. The problem is that the way the change is occurring - slowly and secretly. Most think it is an honest attempt to enhance the worship service. For those who are aware of the true level of change that will come (including past Elders and current deacons, etc.), there is a great deal of concern and urgency, but most just don't know. There are many who are prepared to leave if these changes happen, so maybe the lack of $ will wake some people up.
|March 15 2003, 6:01 PM |
First of all, let me say by posting here, that I do not necessarily agree with everything said or posted here by the site administrators, and would that I would also highly encourage them to be more discerning in the teachers that they advertise in their weekly emails - one article in the past which was advertised supported an article by Paul Proctor which was premillenial through and through.
Despite this, the aim of "warning the brethren" day and night in the spirit of Acts 20:30,31 is something which is an ugly necessity in the times in which we live.
I hope and pray that your elders still have an honest enough heart to listen to the members of the congregation. If that is the case, then they will realize at the very least that they are on the verge of causing a split in your congregation and stop what they are doing. However, I want to share with you some of my experience in the business world and alert you to the mode of thought people generally fall into when they are going to implement a change.
Some years ago, I worked for a massive retail/direct sales computer company that was the largest of its kind in America. We brought in billions in revenue every year, however, we were not profitable whatsoever. The higher ups in the company got together and decided to drastically change the way that we do business - and centralize our operations in one location and remove many of our face-to-face reps. One of the things that any business does when they are implementing such a change is to consider the possible impact on the current customer base. Everyone figured that some customers would not appreciate losing their face-to-face reps, and so the company had to figure out how many customers we could lose with this new system and still be more profitable than we were before. This is what is known as "acceptable attrition"
You might be shocked to learn that it was decided that we could lose over 60 per cent of our current customer base and still be more profitable. I want to tell you that working for this company during this time was one of the more unpleasant experiences of my life. However, we were told and trained that no matter how many people called and threatened to cancel their contracts and were unhappy, that we were to let them. This was the new way of doing business and if they wanted to do business with us this was how it was going to be. In fact, the company actually designated certain contracts were "money-losers" and actually set out trying to default them so that we would not have to have those customers any more. This kind of approach was disastrous - our attrition was actually closer to 80 per cent, and today that company is barely even viable as a direct sales entity.
My point is this: it's naive in these situations to believe that the eldership there has not considered the possible (or certain) loss of membership. Especially in the situation you are describing which is so well organized - I would guess that they even have a specific number in mind that they expect to leave initially, and you would probably be shocked at how large that number is. The point is - they don't care. If they don't show immediate signs of listening - that is, DOING the things you are asking about - but rather continue on in the same vein while trying to sound sympathetic, realize that they consider you to be a part of "acceptable attrition".
What you do about that situation will be up to you.
|March 13 2003, 10:10 AM |
First, you should understand that when the Elders INFORMED the congregation instead of asked the congregation you have the first MARK of a religious CULT. The role of the elder is to "teach that which has been taught" and to "refute those who oppose it." Buildings and grounds and EXTRA BIBLICAL heresy is not part of their authority. Your "obedience" ends when he does not teach that which has been taught and when he turns out to be a WOLF loving to feast on lambs and fleecing the flocks.
"TRADITIONAL" is one of the secret code words of the Shellyites and their ilk. Removing TRADITIONS is a good idea. First, we can begin with self selected or peer selected elders more "apt to chase a coon than apt to teach the Bible." Paul asked that elders be POINTED OUT (not ordained) who were "already laboring to the point of exhaustion in preaching and teaching."
Next, traditionalism is getting a HIRED HAND whom they can dominate to "pull the chestnuts out of the fire" so the little monkeys don't get burned. That was traditionalism condemned by Paul, most of church history and the Restoration Movement leaders.
Now, the NEW tradition is of the preacher hired to hate the flock by becoming a dominant pastor with the elders serving under him as his board. Look to the preacher for the source of the lies which give authority to the elders who are Biblically illiterate because of the TRADITIONALISM of "workbooks" rather than the Bible.
The traditionalism has made "church" into a WORSHIP CENTER rather than a Synagogue of Christ where neither synagogue or church has ANY PRAISE SERVICE. The synagogue (Qahal) was begun by Moses and God outlawed the TRIUMPH which included "making a joyful noise before the Lord" which was all nation's WARRIOR CHANT.
Traditionalism is singing secular songs (blue, red, gold etc) rather than that which Paul specified as "that which is written, the Spirit or the Word of Christ."
Hiring a WORSHIP MINISTER has only the most ancient and superstitious paganism for its authority: it began at the towers of Babylon. This "worship" was STAFF INFECTED by "priests, prophets, soothsayers, singers, instrumentalists and male and female PROSTITUTES" so widely condemned by the Bible as the Qadesh, Qedeshim or qedeshot--the holy whores.
Even now PROFESSIONAL MUSICIANS have a reputation which began with Lucifer (ZOE) who came equipped in the garden of Eden with Wind, String and Percussion instruments. As the king/queen of Tyre she/he is called THE HARP- PLAYING PROSTITUTE. In the Bible SINGERS are associated with the ACT and the names of instruments with the temple-clustering PROSTITUTES. The instrumentalist who will arrive in your churches after the TEAM were always associated with the SODOMITES.
The not-elders are converting your church into A THEATER FOR HOLY ENTERTAINMENT and that according to all of the history including the end-time church in Revelation 18 will make your church into THE HOLY WHORE.
Stewardship: you are to blame. How? By being the ENABLERS of those who brag about INFILTRATING AND DIVERTING. Why is that? You began by believing the worst lie of church history called THE LAW OF GIVING. The Word of God is FREE, Jesus paid the temple tax and Paul said of the effort to save those destitute and starving "THIS IS NOT A COMMAND." All of history saw GIVING not as proportional giving but those WHO HAVE PROSPERED were urged to voluntarily help THOSE WHO WERE DESTITUTE. Not even able bodied evangelists were allowed to dally more than two or three days without getting a job or getting out.
There is nothing in the Bible and the Bible repudiates it that STEWARDSHIP must be directed from my hand into the hands of a SECULAR ORGANIZATION.
Next, the PATTERNISM is to lie to you about TITHING. As they say at Madison if you don't TITHE God will curse you. They used Kregg Hood's (Sweet VP) book on tithing. Kregg speaks in tongues, heals and looks forward to raising the dead in America.
"Liberal" means lying about the Bible and repudiating it as inspired. Liberal means that we accept the Lucado Shelly THREE GOD polytheism. Liberal means that WE have the power of inspiration and that is why YOU must not, as I was told by a Madisoners, "Question God's celestial beings."
"Traditional" is the Shellyite code word which relates almost totally to the church of Christ view AGAINST the "musical" concept and for "teaching" through singing. They lie and stink worse than my wet Chow spread over the kitchen floor just having dined on a deer carcase.
The ANTI-musical theme began in the garden of Eden when Satan WHOLLY SEDUCED Eve and Adam BOWED WILLINGLY. ALL of the musical concepts in the entire Bible speak of Satanic influence which causes people to tell God: "We will not listen to your Word."
In every "musical" event it is a MARK that the people had fallen beyond redemption. The Levites made a great crashing noise to mask the horrors of slaughtering thousands of animals, blood pouring like rivers, dung spread over the place, and the noises of animals dying as a TYPE of Christ. Jesus CAST out the musical worship team trying to influence the "gods" during the healing of the girl "LIKE DUNG.
The Levite "noise makers" were NEVER in the holy place as a type of the church or body of Christ. If even a singer went into the type of CHURCH they would have been slaughtered like one of the animals.
The Bible and history is 100% in treating musical performers in the presence of a holy God wanting to TEACH us through His Words as the work of PROSTITUTES and SODOMITES.
You are asking for a dose of SPIRITUAL AIDS from which the church will never recover. The "logic" for introducing singers and/or musicians is EXACTLY the same authority which would authorize the beyond-redemption non-elders to add PROSTITUTES and SODOMITES which I can assure you will suck in more of the same type which professional singers suck in.
Apollo (Abaddon or Apollyon) is the pattern for the SEEKER CENTER in John's revelation and the MUSES were both his singers and GODDESSES. John prophesied of Apollyon digging up the dead muses as LOCUSTS or "musical performers."
The BIG lie is that churches of Christ INTRODUCED the non-instrumental view and became the non-instrumental SECTARIANS. The TRUTH is that the church of Christ has existed under that name in every period of history and all groups repudiated the MUSICAL concept as polluting to a Spiritual discipline.
Those who tamper with the MUSIC ISSUE are following the Lynn Anderson "Prayerful brinkmanship" game which DEMANDS the deliberate SOWING OF DISCORD which will make your "synagogue of Christ" into a "synagogue of Satan."
The same authority which allows evil men to USURP AUTHORITY gives you and the congregation the authority to FIRE THEM and cast them out as evil "stealers of church houses of widows." They are like one who would enter your house and give himself the authority to be the surrogate HUSBAND and FATHER. Jesus in advising one's readiness in case a thief enters into the house gives you the AUTHORITY to put him out. If they did the same thing to a business, like Enron, they would do hard time on the Rock Pile of hell.
You need to perform YOUR MINISTRY and help EXORCISE the "Giving Demon" without wasting any time: the plan is to get the old faithfuls to pay the bills and then CHASE THEM AWAY to fill the ranks with children already brain dead through music. You do know that the TYPE they want to introduce includes ROCK and that is from VOODOO and is one of those "F" words. Why tolerate people who are clearly beyond the bounds of minimal human consideration? You need a plan to INFORM all present and past members.
Why use PERFORMERS who even in the almost weekly news articles are SYMBOLS of evil and perversion to REACH the lost when the lost already are addicted to music which produces the morphine- like Endorphin which creates the impulse of FIGHT, FLIGHT or SEXUALITY?
What they are saying is that they ARE going to let the unholy whores STAND IN THE HOLY PLACE which in Jerusalem was the Zeus-Dionysus "worshipers" where sacrifice, music and literal sexuality was performed RIGHT IN the holy places as the Abomination of Desolation with which the piping Jews tried to AFFLICT AND INFLICT upon Jesus Christ to PERVERT HIM. Never BOW TO BAAL in the presence of a musical or theatrical performer.
Kenneth Sublett, Hohenwald
|July 20 2005, 11:06 AM |
you are a psycho.
I'm not sure if Ken is a psychologist or a psychoanalyst ... or about the psychology courses he studied in college.
Now, James, how would you describe yourself? Please fill in the appropriate word so we can get to know you better: you are a ___________________________.
|This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address 220.127.116.11 on Jul 20, 2005 10:43 PM|
Re: Fourth Ave
|April 4 2006, 12:55 PM |
Where is in scripture that the role of elder is to "teach that which has been taught"? We are not to "teach that which has been taught" but to teach the truth! That which has been taught may be tradition and false doctrine and not truth. Jesus warned about "teaching that which has been taught" to several religious leaders. We are forever seeking and learning new truths. Not one brother or sister has reached perfection. Nothing is more unholy then for men and wowmen to exalt themselves to the position of divine interpreters of the sacred word.
Teach the Word.
|April 4 2006, 10:53 PM |
Titus 1:8 But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate;
Titus 1:9 Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.
Titus 1:10 For there are MANY unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision:
Mataiologia (g3150) mat-ah-yol-og-ee'-ah; from 3151; random talk, i.e. babble: - vain jangling.
1 Tim 1:6 From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;
Titus 1:11 Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucres sake.
The Bible is filled with the MANDATE that the role of the EKKLESIA or SYNAGOGUE is a "school of the Bible." Paul defines that in Romans 15 and specificially OUTLAWS the kind of PLEASING which creates MENTAL EXCITEMENT. That word points directly to the charismatic (always perverted) singers and musicians in pagan religionism.
Then, Paull commanded that we use ONE MIND and ONE MOUTH to edify or educate with "that which is written" or 'Scripture' where Psalms, hymns and spiritual songs are the INSPIRED TEXT. That outlaws self composed sermons not expository and clearly ASSAULTS anyone who would bring music into the SCHOOL ROOM when Jesus Christ is the teacher ONLY when the leaders teach that which has been taught always defined as the WORD.
That is the ONLY way to glorify God and not the musicators and to KEEP THE PEACE. Any usurper who brings any form of PRAISE SINGING into the assembly is engaged in the most ancient, paganistic, superstitious, legalistic, patternistic practices known to those who wrote on caves. The musical PROPHESER (the Lord, Lord sayers Jesus will not KNOW) were the OLDEST PROFESSIONALS.
No one can pontificate and musicate and be ignorant of that: therefore, many peaceable churches of Christ have been invaded by "the idolatry of talent" which is pagan idolatry.
error by Tom Wacaster
|October 3 2007, 1:43 PM |
The Need to Answer Error
by Tom Wacaster
Every child of God has the sacred obligation to "be ready always to give answer to every man that asketh you a reason concerning the hope that is in you, yet with meekness and fear" (1 Pet. 3:15). We are to "contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered unto the saints" (Jude 3). Our Lord told us to "beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravening wolves" (Matt. 7:15). Our responsibility is no less than those Christians of the first century who were told, "believe not every spirit, but prove the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets are gone out into the world" (1 Jno. 4:1). The past twenty years have seen an ever increasing defection of once-faithful, stalwart soldiers of the cross. Men who once stood in the gap and wielded the sword of the Spirit with skill and effectiveness have gone over to the enemy.
A once faithful brother wrote: "It is not possible to overemphasize the damage done by perverse preceptors. They not only cause division (a thing God hates), but the ultimate outcome of their treachery, whether that treachery be witting or unwitting, is eternal loss to all who are led astray by their influence." With regard to our Lord's admonition, "beware" is a forceful word. It is a warning. It says to us, "Look out, danger, peril, jeopardy, risk, hazard." It screams at us, "Pay attention. Be on guard."
We are locked in a battle with error. Truth will prevail, of that we are certain. But we must do our part to uphold that truth, moving neither to the left nor to the right. There is always the danger that a little compromise will eventually lead to wholesale apostasy. Hence the need to answer false doctrines forcefully, faithfully, and forthrightly. Time is of the essence; souls are at stake; the cause of Christ must not suffer! Unfortunately the ranks of those who will address the issues continue to diminish. But if we are to pass the torch to the next generation we dare not waver in our sacred duty to uphold the truth at all costs. The late F.B. Srygley was right on target:
"Fighting for the Truth is almost a lost art. Men who are enjoying the benefits of the Gospel unmixed with human error, are enjoying these benefits because our fathers fought for the Truth. Every inch of ground from that mysterious way of being saved, which was better felt than told, to the plain conditions of pardon as taught in the New Testament, was fought out for us by our fathers. If someone before us had not fought for the Truth, most of us might yet be in the fog of denominational teaching. This is not the time to temporize or make friends with error (F.B. Syrgley (Madisonville, KY: In Word and Doctrine, Oct-Dec, 1992), page 19; originally appeared in the Gospel Advocate, 1928)
False teachers have been tolerated, ignored, and in some instances embraced by unfaithful elders, preachers and members. Far too little has been done in answer to the false teachers presently assailing the walls of Zion. We only pray that it is not too late to take our stand and defend the truth.
Re: Fourth Ave Church of Christ, Franklin, TN
|March 13 2003, 10:37 AM |
It's going to be important to educate your fellow members as soon as possible.
Send ConcernedMembers an email with your address, and how many members you have, and we will send you some postcards
|This message has been edited by ConcernedMembers from IP address 18.104.22.168 on Mar 13, 2003 1:16 PM|
|March 14 2003, 8:12 PM |
power corrups, total power corrups totally. no place in the scripture gives elders total power over the flock of God. if you had not allowed yourselves to be hoodwinked into letting a few unconverted men rule over you, you would not be in this mess. the evanglist appoints the first elder. why should he not appoint the last one? elders appointing other elders is Godless mess. that is why we are about to have a war. dictators. the elders think, and you concer, they are the only voice in the church that matters. let me come and preach one week and all of them will resign, which is not a scriptureal thing to do. you can't resign from God's work. you have made your bed hard and now you must lie in it. josh stafford
|March 15 2003, 11:04 AM |
Josh if absolute power corrupts the eldership why would not absolute power corrupt the EVANGELIST? Josh, Paul Revere was an "evangelist" or herald. There can no more be a LOCATED EVANGELIST than there can be a located travelling salesman.
Here is where the church fell into the deep well of apostasy. Don Finto got his revelation and returned to Nashville to proclaim:
"By this time I had seen that in the New Testament, elders were appointed by apostles...by Paul and Barnabas...by Titus" (Belmont p. 2).
"The books of Timothy were written so that Timothy would know how to set elders in order in the churches. God has used me to do that in other churches" (Ibid. p. 2)
Evangelists were commissioned to GO and not to stay.
Tit 1:4 To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour.
Tit 1:5 For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee.
Proving that Titus had no local authority, Paul continued to define those who were to be POINTED OUT as already laboring. Titus knew which men were working with Paul and therefore approved by him. Paul was inspired but we don't have any of those around.
First, Paul an APOSTLE appointed by Jesus Christ writes this letter telling Titus to point out elders.
Second, Paul told him the QUALIFICATION.
Third, Paul had ALREADY appointed to Titus those who should be selected: they would ALREADY be doing what an elder should do as the ONLY located pastor- teacher.
-----KATHISTEMI = to appoint a person to a position (Vine) (Titus 1:5) "Not a formal ecclesiastical ordination is in view, but the appointment, for the recognition of the churches, of those who had already been raised up and qualified by the Holy Spirit, and had been given evidence of this in their life and service."
Fourth, there were OVER 100 cities on Crete and it is evident that Titus did not see himself as the overseer of any of these many city flocks because Paul has to write a letter authorizing and admonishing him to "get on with the work" for which Paul left him on Crete.
Fifth, by pointing out those already qualified by Paul's Apostolic authority he would confirm those who were ALREADY the natural leaders ALREADY laboring in preaching and teaching. The person should be pointed out as the model for the flock to follow.
Sixth, Timothy a more notable evangelist than Titus had been ordained and instructed by both Paul and the ELDERS.
1 Tim 4:13 Till I come, give attendance to READING, to exhortation, to doctrine.
1 Tim 4:14 Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery.
There is no OFFICE of "PREACHER." Evangelists would naturally detect those who WOULD and COULD perform as a PASTOR- TEACHER. However, the only way to DETECT a leader is to see whether people are ALREADY following him because of his faithfulness to the word and they watched "the outcome of his life."
He is POINTED OUT by having his OWN personal holy spirit or mental disposition.
|March 16 2003, 9:17 AM |
Step away from this site
|March 22 2003, 9:49 AM |
With all due respect to the people who maintain this site, if you are posting or reading messages on this website, I ask you for the scriptural basis for the venting of these things in this venue. Are you not supposed to be sitting down in love and prayer with your brothers and sisters with whom you have a difference? If you are a member at Fourth Avenue, stop believing the lies and misinformation that is being spewed forth from this site. There is no community church ulterior motive. There is no wish for anyone to leave.
How would people who do not even attend Fourth Avenue even know the congregation? If you are a member of the congregation, then how is the airing of differences on this site bringing unsaved people to the strong knowledge and saving grace of God?
There is a stong desire to use tools that we have been given to spread the news of Jesus Christ. I plead with you to stop ego and selfishness and pride from standing in the way of our being able to sit down and talk. This is not the forum. This is not the place. I have very little hope that this message will get through to you, because it will probably be edited or erased. I have signed my name to this posting so you will know who I am. I will not hide and try to be anonymous. I will stand up for Truth. Please get away from this site. Its mission has nothing to do with the spreading of the good news of Jesus Christ. It has everything to do with people sitting in judgement of others.
|March 24 2003, 10:11 AM |
The commission of Jesus is to teach and also to admonish and warn.
You state: "There is a stong desire to use tools that we have been given to spread the news of Jesus Christ."
Does that mean that YOU believe that God has give you the TOOLS of the musical worship heresy to SPREAD the news of Jesus Christ?
Jesus THOUGHT that He gave us ALL of the tools which is the WORDS OF CHRIST, the SPIRIT or THAT WHICH IS WRITTEN so that we can WITH ONE MOUTH AND VOICE glorify God. If you believe that your SOWING OF DISCORD move into the BABYLON HARLOT form of "musical religion" is going to be FORCED on others then YOU must believe that you are MORE inspired than Jesus or Paul. Indeed, the 13th apostles DO so teach that the Bible has been "sifted through philosophy and the personal agenda of the Bible writers so that ALL we have left is the CORE GOSPEL of seven FACTS ABOUT Jesus Christ." (Shellyism which is Sillyism).
If you believe that this end-time Babylon form of MUSICAL PERFORMANCE trumps the WORDS OF GOD then you may not want to OUT yourself so completely.
The ORIGIN of musical "worship" is from SATAN and all scholarship knows that "THERE IS NO OTHER TRADITION." You guys DID NOT FABRICATE the "LOOK AT ME" form of music: it began with Lucifer (ZOE) who as the king/ queen of Tyre was the HARP PLAYING PROSTITUTE in the garden of Eden. She/he went into SHEOL with his/her harps and harpists. See the HARPS and HARPISTS here:
You state: "There is a stong desire to use tools that we have been given to spread the news of Jesus Christ."
Did you know that Jesus cast out the MUSICAL WORSHIP TEAM (funeral, weddings, religious festivals, coming into the presence of the gods) MORE OR LESS VIOLENTLY "LIKE DUNG" IS SCATTERED.
If you follow through with SOWING DISCORD it will have ZERO Biblical authority and 100% of historical authority which makes it a TOOL of Satan. All of the "pagan" gods were homosexual. In the Bible and secular literature SINGERS spoke of prostitutes and MUSICIANS spoke of Sodomites which, for much of the time, had a role in the perverted Temple in Jerusalem.
HERE IS THE FACT WHICH ELEMINATES YOUR "IDOLATRY OF TALENT" IN THE ASSEMBLY OR SCHOOL OF THE BIBLE:
1Pe.4:11 If any man SPEAK,
------let him speak as the ORACLES of God;
if any man minister,
------let him do it as of the ability which God giveth:
--that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
THERE IS NO ROLE FOR THE IDOLATRY OF TALENT IN THE CHURCH OF CHRIST: IT IS HISTORICALLY ALWAYS ASSOCIATED WITH THE "HOLY WHORE" RELIGIONS.
Don't Offend these little ones or you are MARKED.
Here is some more data:
|This message has been edited by ConcernedMembers from IP address 22.214.171.124 on Mar 24, 2003 11:42 AM|
|Member of Fourth Avenue|
|April 21 2003, 9:58 PM |
"The commission of Jesus is to teach and also to admonish and warn." - Kenneth Sublett
THIS IS A LIE.
Jesus Christ died on a cross for your sins and mine. Its a dangerous thing when men begin to put limits on the grace of Christ. Forget institution, forget "First-Century Church", forget the rules and regulations that are our objects of comfort, and get back to Jesus Christ. I don't ever recall a time when, as Christians, we are called to be "comfortable" in our faith. Mr. Sublett, people are starving to know the grace of God, and you are too busy on this website, posting about the problems within the church. Let's get our priorities straight, people. What is christianity? Is it the condemming of your own brothers? No, it is the blood that poured down the body Jesus Christ as he hung on that Christ... Remember that.
Grace: not acquired thrugh MUSIC
|April 22 2003, 3:00 PM |
Ken Said: "The COMMISSION of Jesus is to teach and also to admonish and warn." - Kenneth Sublett
MEMBER SAYS: THIS IS A LIE.
Jesus CHRIST died on a cross for your sins and mine.
Member maybe you need a bucket to hold the thought for a few inches down the page.
Maybe someone will tell you that COMMISSION is not the same as DIE! My commission is to Go and teach. If your's is to go musical you DID NOT get it from Jesus. You got it in direct CONTRADICTION to Jesus--if you were a disciple of Christ that would be easy to read in prophecy and the NT.
MEMBER SAYS: Its a dangerous thing when men begin to put limits on the grace of Christ. Forget institution, forget "First-Century Church", forget the rules and regulations that are our objects of comfort, and get back to Jesus Christ.
KEN: the lust for a MUSICAL WORSHIP TEAM is 100% for YOUR comfort. It is NOT GRACE but the most ancient and ignorant superstition that a SPIRIT God can be worshiped with the works of human hands. Assuredly MUSICAL PERFORMANCE must be the most WORKS INTENSIVE and legalistic and GRACE REJECTING thing you could do.
GRACE means POWER. The Grace of God put POWER in the SPOKEN words which Jesus said are Spirit and are Life (John 6:63). Nothing in Christianity puts POWER in music. In fact, all of the ROOT WORDS for "music" speak of "grinding the enemy into a fine powder, twanging a bowstring to send a 'singing' arrow into the enemy's heart and is DIRECTLY RELATED to the SOP Jesus gave Judas AS A SIGN.
If you get back to JESUS CHRIST you might begin with Psalm 41 where it was prophesied that Judas would try and fail to TRIUMPH OVER Jesus. The Judas Bag "carried the mouthpieces of wind instruments" and TRIUMPH over which was OUTLAWED for the synagogue (Num 10:7) was "playing instruments and or 'making a joyful noise before the Lord." This was not MUSIC but a Warrior's Chant.
You might brush up on the Bible and grasp that when the MUSICAL MOURNING TEAM who could do religious festivals, funerals or weddings, tried to PERFORM in the presence of Lord Jesus Christ He CAST THEM OUT MORE OR LESS VIOLENTLY. The Greek word means "like CASTING OUT DUNG."
A thing can be CHRISTIAN when it is taught by Christ. Because Jesus repudiated the MUSICAL WORSHIP TEAM and other "musical" rituals added while in Babylon, it is NOT Christian to do PERFORMANCE MUSIC in His presence.
You might read the book of Revelation and understand that the HARLOT worship includes musicians and instrumentalists. (Rev 18).
MEMBER: I don't ever recall a time when, as Christians, we are called to be "comfortable" in our faith. Mr. Sublett, people are starving to know the grace of God, and you are too busy on this website, posting about the problems within the church.
Ken: You are LUSTING to be comfortable. Music does not make spiritual changes. Music produces the morphine-like chemical ENDORPHINS in the body. Music produces this DRUG HIGH to make you THINK that you are BEING COMFORTABLE. Instead music produces the DRUG HIGH which produces the the impulses of FIGHT, FLIGHT AND SEXUALITY. So, the music you probably think is spiritual FIRST, like the Runner's High, has to injure your total nervous system before the DRUG HIGH kicks in very quickly and HEALS THE PAIN. What is left over gives you the HIGH which is not SPIRITUAL.
You have the problem if you participate in deliberately SOWING DISCORD and "stealing the church house of widows" just so you can extend your ADDICTION to music throughout the week into the PRIVATE SPACES and TIMES of people who come to worship in THEIR building. If they wanted to be ENTERTAINED they could buy a CD for just dollars.
There is NO music word used in the Bible in connection with Spiritual Worship. It is always connected with personal pleasure, warfare and was always the WEAPON used by the prostitute. The Bible and Legend sees Satan as the father who brought musical instruments with him right in the garden of Eden to pervert (sexually) Adam and Eve.
MUSIC in a religious sense had a CO-PARTNER which was literal sexuality. Carol Wimber the Mother of modern superstitious PRAISE SINGING likens ACT 4 to a sexual climax with God. The 4th Act, just as in all paganism, was GIVING OF SUBSTANCE.
Since MUSIC is never seen in an approved religious sense until recently, why do you think that MUSIC which PRODUCES the feelings of SEXUALITY is any more acceptable than LITERAL sexuality. They ALWAYS went together. For instance, the Abomination of Desolation in the temple in Jerusalem focused on MUSIC and SEXUALITY.
Member: Let's get our priorities straight, people. What is Christianity? Is it the condemning of your own brothers? No, it is the blood that poured down the body Jesus Christ as he hung on that Christ... Remember that.
Ken: Christianity DOES NOT mean a focus on WORSHIP RITUALS. You remember that Jesus didn't prescribe ANY. Paul even said that if you want to meet Jesus Christ you have to "go outside the camp" or "outside the CITY gates."
SERVICE in the Levitical musician sense meant HARD BONDAGE which is closely related to Apollo or Abaddon or Apollyon in Revelation.
Literal WORSHIP meant to fall on your face in a PHYSICAL SENSE. You absolutely CANNOT do that with singing, clapping and bumping and grinding your body.
SPIRITUAL WORSHIP for which Jesus died gives the GRACE to be able to worship IN THE SPIRIT. That means in the PLACE of the human spirit or mind. And it must GIVE HEED to TRUTH which is the Word of Christ.
SYNAGOGUE or school of the Bible or "church" was TYPIFIED by the Holy Place. Any singer or musician who dared enter into this TYPE of the church or body of Christ would have been instantly EXECUTED.
The WORSHIP is in the Most Holy Place is in the HUMAN SPIRIT. That is why worship probably cannot exist in a CHURCH OR SYNAGOGUE setting. You have to go INTO THE CLOSET as Jesus DIRECTLY COMMANDED in a quiet dark place even to be ABLE to pray.
Assuredly NO SINGER OR MUSICIAN could enter the MOST HOLY PLACE where worship takes place, NOW in our own mind. As a SINGER or CLAPPER you cannot go into my head.
Jesus so UTTERLY CONDEMNED the Jewish clergy and the majority of the people by refusing to preach the gospel to them except in the coded parable form. Jesus condemned the Pharisees which defines those who MAKE A SHOW of religion and CHARGE FOR IT. There is no grace for Pharisees.
CONDEMNING YOUR brother is to INFILTRATE AND DIVERT and "steal the church house of widows" to change the church of Christ (school) into a THEATER FOR HOLY ENTERTAINMENT and force the poor and widows into the LEGALISTIC (NO GRACE) "LAW OF GIVING" OR "TITHING."
You guys (you must be a musical type) SNATCH PURSES of the disabled and MY job is to warn others about YOU. That is the COMMISSION Jesus had given to ME.
Jesus gave ME permission to STAY AWAKE and watch for ROBBERS so that I can at least yell: "Stop thief" when you try to get away with it hoping that GRACE covers MUSIC as the invention of Satan to steal worship from God.
You don't know the difference between COMMISSION and DIED and you do not and cannot give a coherent definition of either WORSHIP or GRACE. God DOES NOT NEED and WILL NOT TOLERATE the latter day rise of the LOCUSTS (musical performers) prophesied by John in Revelation.
And He will hold me guilty if I do not warn YOU against committing the music sin which in the Bible and Legend is an UNFORGIVABLE SIN. Grace is not a "blue eyed blond singing and exposing herself as part of the team."
The blood remits your sins but only the gift of A holy spirit or clear conscience or consiousness comes by REQUESTING IT at the time and place of baptism. The blood of Christ was typified in the COURT in Jerusalem where the Levitical Warrior "sounders" made a loud, crashing sound while the priests were POURING OUT THE BLOOD of thousands of innocent animals to pay for their own sins. Why would you want to restore THAT music and crucify Christ all over again? Neither the blood shed or the "noise" was inside the Holy Place which one enters only through the LAVER and into which NO MUSICAN COULD DARE ENTER.
Let me repeat it: the MUSICAL WORSHIP TEAM was the typical Jewish (pagan) workers of magic among the dead spirits (demons). The "sounders" but not musicians in the COURT where they slaughtered the TYPE of Lord Jesus Christ could not enter the Holy Place (school) or the Most Holy Place where we meet God (Jesus). Jesus fulfilled this TYPE by casting out "like dung" the superstitious TEAM from where He does His Holy Work of healing broken spirits. IF you try to bring MUSICAL TEAMS into that church YOU are ignoring the total teaching of the Bible and the several EXAMPLES of Jesus Christ and IGNORING His warning and BARGING into His holy presence from where HE CAST YOU OUT--LIKE DUNG surrounding the slaughter pen where the "musicians" served the priestly slaughterers.
And I am telling you that the Book of Enoch quoted by Jude says that God comes with His ten thousands SPECIFICIALLY for people performing the LUCIFER PRINCIPLE of bleeding off worship due to God alone through the use of SATAN- TAUGHT CHOIRS.
|October 16 2003, 10:18 AM |
I know Chris Norwood. You Ken are no Chris Norwood. "The heart of men." I know Chris' heart as man who is Godly and the least Self-serving man I know. If words are representation of what manifest in the heart - your representation is not of this world. Nor will your influence stand the test of time.
|October 16 2003, 3:39 PM |
I just looked in the mirrow and you are correct: I am not Chris! How did you know?
Chris made the point that we are to USE ALL OF THE TOOLS, the discussion was about hiring a MUSICAL WORSHIP LEADER, spending people's hard earned wages and remodelling as a theater for holy entertainment or something like that. Carnal Weapons could be musical instruments and Paul said they are not OUR weapons.
I don't have to know Chris to know that THERE IS NO OTHER TRADITION but that MUSIC was brought by Lucifer who lost his heavenly rights and, with his AGENTS, fell into the Garden of Eden to attack Adam and Eve because the EARTH was his domain before it was reworked to root out Satan. The serpent means a Musical Enchanter just as the OPHIS is the end time serpents. They are defined as sOPHISts who are false preachers, known as the sorcerers. All singers and Instrumentalists were known as PARASITES.
Lucifer came with wine, string and percussion instruments and while male was called the HARP PLAYING PROSTITUTE.
Music or any PERFORMANCE in the church moves it out of the descripton of an EKKLESIA which was NEVER more than A School of the Bible. Thomas Campbell noted that restoration meant making CHURCH into a School of Christ.
Music is a MARK that Apollo has turned loose the LOCUSTS as musical performers. They were sentenced into sheol by the MOTHER GODDESS and turned into LOCUSTS. The MARK is absolute that music is the MARK OF THE BEAST. In Babylonia she was INANNA the holy whore who stole the art of music from the FATHR GOD, she built temples where SHE was worshiped and she loved to SOW DISCORD AMONG PEACABLE BRETHEREN and tear down the temples. Later, she is ZOE as in the ZOE GROUP. She is known as the BEAST and FEMALE INSTRUCTING PRINCIPLE. She forced little son/brother "jehovah" to form musical worship teams to PRAISE her before she promoted him up to the seventh heaven, just below the Supreme Deity.
Read Revelation 18 for the LAST ACT and read earlier that the TEN HORNS were musical instruments of little perveted PAN who LOOKS TO THE HILLS and helps other build their own kingdom by using music.
Chris, be glad that you are not me. Tell your friend that I am not you although I have no reason to object.