thank you, Chris
|March 25 2003, 9:20 AM |
Thank you for speaking up to people who are addressing issues they know nothing about or have heard only one side.They assume that what we are dealing with here is the same as another place. The elders at 4th Ave are among the most Godly, prayerful men I know. They are truely seeking to do the work of the Lord. To seek and save the lost. No where in the New Testament do I read about a church being a democracy. I don't recall getting to "vote" on how "my" money is spent. It is the Lord's money. The elders that have been appointed to lead me have the right and authority to make those decisions. That is why they are "shepherds" and I am "a sheep". Unless you know the hearts of the men you are speaking about,and have talked to them face to face you have no right to talk (or write).
Thanks but no thanks, Chris
|March 25 2003, 2:29 PM |
This open dialog began with the statement by one of your members:
"Not to mention the secrecy of the plan to hire a Worship Leader -which includes extra lighting, sound and video components as well as praise teams. With secrecy being a large component of this equation, trust has become a big issue, leaving many in a "holding pattern," unwilling to give fully of their time, resources and heart."
NOTHING which happens in Franklin, Madison, Columbia etc., without directly involving people we love. Therefore, perhaps you can silence the cheap seats if you KNOW what is being planned and TELL your own members.
THE FOLLOWING STATEMENT IS ABSOLUTELY FALSE AND PROBABLY SELF SERVING:
-----"The elders at 4th Ave are among the most Godly, prayerful men I know. They are truely seeking to do the work of the Lord. To seek and save the lost. No where in the New Testament do I read about a church being a democracy. I don't recall getting to "vote" on how "my" money is spent.
Oh, yes you do! Peter told a couple that when they sold their property the money BELONGED TO THEM and not to the Lord unless they were willing to give.
THERE IS NO LAW OF GIVING in the New Testament. Paul said that JIM SHOULD LAY BY IN JIM'S COOKIE JAR until He saw the Apostle's team coming to take it to Judea in a GROUP.
Paul said "THIS IS NOT A COMMAND." Therefore, the elders have no authority to collect YOUR money and then SWITCH how it is going to be spent. That is UNGODLY.
In Paul's statement the PROSPEROUS owed the DESTITUTE food: they owed the elders nothing.
I suggest that you read the evidence which godly elders CANNOT use to make you believe that the ELDER's authority extends beyond "teaching that which has been taught" and "refuting those who contradict" the Written Word.
Thomas Campbell wrote:
------"The contracting of heavy and oppressive debts is proscribed.
------"No brother is allowed to enthral himself or others in any sort of worldly speculations which incur either anxiety on his part or inconvenience to others. The aged, feeble, and helpless are taken care of by the brethren.
"It is the Lord's money. The elders that have been appointed to lead me have the right and authority to make those decisions. That is why they are "shepherds" and I am "a sheep". Unless you know the hearts of the men you are speaking about,and have talked to them face to face you have no right to talk (or write).
No, No: Shepherds DO NOT TAKE UP COLLECTIONS FROM THE FLOCK. The early elders WORKED in order to help support those who had "observed the outcomes of their lives" and picked them to be their TEACHERS and FEEDERS.
The HEART is evil if men decide that they have the authority to BYPASS the ONE ANOTHER role of the Body over which Jesus Christ is the head. They are Biblically and historically illiterate if they think that there is any authority to hire a TEAM to lead you into the presence of God with music. ALL such teams claim the role of Jesus as MEDIATOR.
Please tell us what YOU have become a WATCHTOWER SLAVE to defend and ADD which always deliberately sows discord.
Re: Thanks but no thanks, Chris
|March 25 2003, 10:22 PM |
|March 26 2003, 11:03 AM |
My question to you Kenneth is; Which of satans rocks did they find you under.
|March 26 2003, 11:24 AM |
How can you in good coscience comment about an "open dialog" not knowing if the statements made are truth of lies. You are commenting and making statements about a church and its elders under the assumption that the open dialog statements are true. I believe the Lord would want you to comment on facts and not things that could be lies.
|March 26 2003, 11:44 AM |
My question to you Kenneth is; Which of satans rocks did they find you under.
|March 26 2003, 11:44 AM |
My question to you Kenneth is; Which of satans rocks did they find you under.
|March 26 2003, 2:18 PM |
Lucifer or ZOE (Eve, Mary, Inanna, Ishtar, Cybel) was the BEAST and "the female instructing principle." She was the king/queen of Tyre known as the HAPR PLAYING PROSTITUTE. She is the end-time Babylon Whore of Revelation 18 who organizes musicians (locusts, muses) and musicians.
Inanna or Ishtar was the HOLY PROSTITUTE and she was given the gift (ME) of the ELDERSHIP, MUSICAL INSTRUMENTS AND PERVERTED SEXUALITY. Here "worship service" was called THE HOLY TAVERN, kinda like the new perversion of Holy Theater.
She concentrates on PERFORMANCE "rocks"
Eze 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy TABRETS and of thy PIPES was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. [She/he also brought stringed instruments: the harp which went into Sheol with the Babylon whore]
Eze 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the STONES of FIRE.
28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee
28:16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
TO CAST AS PROFANE is from CHALAL from which we get HALAL (a TEAM) from which we get HEYLEL or LUCIFER:
----It means to play the flute, pollute or prostitute.
Lucifer was an ANNOINTED CHERUB on the ark which GUARDED the Word of God from people after they engaged in MUSICAL IDOLATRY at Mount Sinai and were TURNED OVER TO WORSHIP THE STARS.
Therefore, because I am a BELIEVER and quite literate about the MUSIC - HOMOSEXUALITY ABSOLUTE IDENTITY in all pagan musical religions, and the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION in the temple, Satan FINDS me under the following Rock and he cannot lay a hand (or, or, or) on me in musical, universally perverted pagan superstition:
2S.22:2 And he said, The Lord is my ROCK, and my FORTRESS, and my DELIVERER;
2S.22:3 The God of my ROCK; in HIM will I trust: he is my SHIELD, and the HORN of my SALVATION, my HIGH TOWER, and my REFUGE, my SAVIOR; thou savest me from VIOLENCE.
Mt.16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this ROCK I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
IF YOU BUILD YOUR HOPE ON LUCIFER'S ROCKS YOU ARE GOING TO GET BURNED AND END UP WITH A PLAGUE WHICH HAS NO CURE.
YOUR side has claimed that your "elder" and undoubtedelly an "eldress" or two are planning to spend YOUR money for THEIR Holy Theater they YOUR dialog is not to gasp and stutter but to TELL her that she is lying. OK?
My commission is to warn the few--a very tiny remnant--that they may need to get out before Satan's Rocks and Rolls falls on them and they get spiritual AIDS for which there is no cure and the PLAGUE in Revelation is WEEPING SORES.
I understanding the HISSING when I put my heel down. You singy- clappy boy-girls (king/queens of paganism) will WIN: it is prophesied and IN THE BOOK. That is why Paul said that we HAVE NO ENDURING CITY and we need to GET OUTSIDE THE CAMP which is the ONLY place we will find Jesus Christ as we share His SHAME. Lord Jesus Christ has come and gone and taken His candlestick with Him. Therefore, you walk in darkness and know not what thou steppest in.
No thanks, Chris
|March 26 2003, 9:49 AM |
Loyalty is a fine thing but loyalty to Christ comes first.
ONE product of the Jubilee is that Rubel Shelly sees the "ministers" as the BEST qualified to lead while the elders shepherd the ministers. Elders at times mislead but are also MISLEAD by those who see themselves as DOMINANT PASTORS or cult leaders.
David Lipscomb on Church Authority
"Whenever a man or set of men . . . assume to exercise authority in a church by virtue of some official appointment, or to assert, they have rights and authority as officers above others and assume to exert their rights without the full consent and approval of the members, they should be resisted even to the disruption of the body. They are lording it over God's heritage, and are exalting their authority at the expense of the authority of Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. One man, in the assertion and maintenance of the Divine will, has as much authority as another, more than a thousand ordained ones in disregard of that will. The ONLY REASON we have seen from Scripture for appointing certain individuals to special work was to see that NEGLECTED work was performed. The seven at Jerusalem were appointed to see that the Grecian widows, neglected in the daily ministration were fed. Titus was sent to set in order the things "wanting," and to place Elders in their proper work.
"Whenever a man in the church of Christ claims authority or exercises power merely on official ground, he is essentially a POPE and claims the prerogatives of papacy as fully as does he of Rome. He may be a smaller one, his sphere of action may be more limited, but the principle is the same. All the evils of the papacy arise out of the claim of the Pope and his council to decide questions by virtue of official position.--Gospel Advocate, 1877, Page 232
We have reviewed the SADDLE BACK COVENANT which guides many who have slipped from Jubilee, to Willow Creek to Saddleback:
|March 26 2003, 10:00 PM |
Mr. Sublett: I do not know you or your intentions, however, I am certain that I am just as familiar with you as you are with the saints that meet at Fourth Avenue.
It is evident that you are addicted to your own style of pornography. You engage in self gratification via your keyboard.
If you are capable of pushing back from the computer, come visit the Fourth Ave congregation. You will be greeted warmly, accepted for who you are, and you will leave blessed by the visit. We are praying for you and everyone like you.
|March 27 2003, 9:43 AM |
Annie, there has always been a TINY REMNANT of people devoted to TRUTH. However, the overwhelming majority of people ADDICTED TO RELIGION (as opposed to school of the Bible Jesus built) have built CHURCH on the name CIRCE or KIRKE the holy whore burried on an island within sight of Patmos when John defined WHAT TO WATCH for as the ENEMY OF CHRIST.
Church is almost 100% in mortal combat with the WORDS OF CHRIST (the ONLY resource for the "singing" commands). If you are singing the MANTRAS of brother or sister singer YOU are ADDICTED. I, being a DISCIPLE, can READ the Words of Christ WITHOUT A TUNE. Let's see you read Psalm 41 and see if you can SEE the prophecy of JUDAS trying to TRIUMPH OVER Jesus with his FLUTE which comes from the same Hebrew word as POLLUTE OR PROSTITUTE.
ALL MUSICAL PSEUDO-WORSHIP WORSHIPS THE COMPOSER AND PRESENTER AND IS "EROTIC" AS MUSICOLOGISTS ACKNOWLEDGE AND IS DERIVED FROM VOODOO-THE ULTIMATE SOURCE OF ALL CCM MUSIC.
The attack in the garden of Eden was musical - sexual as were all of the MUSICAL passages. This is why Jesus CAST OUT the Musical Worship Team "like dung." They called Jesus Baal Zebul and He treated them like the prostitute musicians of BAAL PEOR worshiped with DUNG.
Priestly Performers were THE OLDEST professionals:
"In this fashion evey common tribal interestthe recurrence of the seasons, the increase of the food supply, successful huntingwas likely to become embodied
in some regularly repeated ceremony, which usually included group dancing, singing, and feasting.
Besides enabling men to express, and thereby to ALLAY, ANGER and ANXIETY, such ceremonies also promoted tribal unity and strengthened the loyalty of the individual to tribal traditions,
for the emotional excitement they aroused had the effect of breaking down the barriers between individuals
and thus fusing all tribesmen into a COLLECTIVE whole. Meanwhile, whole systems of MAGICAL devices were gradually elaborated." (H. Bamfort Parkes, Of Gods and Men, p. 29)
'Certain members of a tribe, marked out either by unusual skills or by some EMOTIONAL ABNORMALITY, ususally became particularly adept at these operations, and gradually assumed specialized functions. ("Normals" need not apply for the musical performing RIDING ON THE BACKS OF WIDOWS).
Released from the duty of hunting, and concentrating on the practice of magic, the shaman, sorcerer, or medicine man was the world's FIRST professional." (Parkes, p. 29).
"The development both of religion and of the arts can be traced back in a continuous line to the hunting era. The group ritual of the primeval tribesmen were the origin not only of all religious ceremonial, but also of the DRAMA and of POETRY and MUSIC, while magic gave birth to the visual arts." (Parkes, p. 30).
"Awed by the mysteries of his own spirit no less than by those of nature, primitive man was likely to attribute to divine influence
any ABNORMAL emotional state, whether above or below the usual level. Medicine men customarily went into states of trance in which they were believed to be in communication with the gods,
and many tribes supposed LUNATICS and SEXUAL DEVIANTS to be divinely possessed.
You singy-clappy types are ADDICTED and are SPREADING your Baal-Peor worship throughout the church. I simply point out to you that a pseudo-church will ALWAYS have the symbols of VISIONARY or AUDITORY ORGASM as the Vineyard group boasts of. You probabably belong to the ZOE or NEW WINESKINS group: Dionysus was the god of NEW WINESKINS and musical perversion and was worshipped in the Jerusalem Temple as "The Abomination of Desolation" prophesied to come to your church again in the end times.
I do truly love to see the EXPLICIT SEXUAL symbolism in ALL church architecture: Circe and Satan wants you to blame me for your ADDICTION from which there is no recovery. Know why those people who got sucked into Baal-Peor worship were destroyed? They contracted a fatal PLAGUE. If you have been STUNG by the "music as worship" lie you have fallen and you will never get up.
I can survive YOU blaming ME for your fatal spiritual plague which is often a PHYSICAL PLAGUE as the MARK of the MUSIC industry. YOU have to worry about probably self-appointed "leaders" who steal money through tithing or THE LAW OF GIVING and then DIVERT it to satisfy their lust. MUSIC always meant trying to KNOW GOD PERSONALLY. All RELIGION is sexual or perverted sexuality. That is why Paul commanded you to go OUTSIDE THE CITY if you want to find Jesus and worship Him in your spirit which is YOUR MIND.
Annie, I want you to watch the pictures of downtown Bagdad. See that THINGY sticking up over the mosque? Well, the rest of the world doesn't try to CAMAFLAUGE their sexual symbols. But, you guys are INFILTRATING and DIVERTING just like the other Jubilating churches.
Unfortunately, the MUSIC-INDUCED drug produces the effects of FIGHT, FLIGHT AND SEXUALITY and the DRUG HIGH will wear off before the evening service and by Monday morning you will discover why Paul warned the musical Corinthians that YOUR ASSEMBLIES DO MORE HARM THAN GOOD. You MUSICAL types LIVE AND LUST over inflicting spiritual and emotional damage which is the meaning of Paul's word "MELODY" or Psallo which HE commanded you to keep under control and IN YOUR SPIRIT.
Annie, welcome to Pagananity: The priests, prophets, soothsayers, singers, musicians, acrobats and male and female prostitutes welcome you to BAGDAD (you know, Babylon).
|April 26 2003, 1:42 PM |
Mr. Subtlet, you are one of the most un-christian, self-centered, self rightous people I have ever heard of. Get a life and pray, lest you fall into temptation. You are worse then the prostitutes and sodomist that you talk about. You are the devils servant. HE has invaded your heart and works agaist Christianity through you. There is a disclaimer at the bottom of the page. "This website is not part of or approved by any Church!" I could not agree more wholeheartedly with that. This most likely began as a good site, and you have ruined it. You have made it so that it is not a good site anymore and not in accordance with any church, or even "The Church." I am thankful that Jesus died for your sins, too. I am thankful that He is a forgiving God.
Concerned for 4th
|May 20 2003, 9:30 PM |
I know first hand about the situation at 4th Avenue Church, the elders may be sincere, however, I believe two or three of these men have an agenda to change this congregation's worship service into an entertaining show where 'anything goes'. The remaining men (elders) are brainwashed. I told one of these men that I felt they (the elders) were leading this church into the "wide gate where the way is broad" Matt. 7-13 and his response was that we "had to widen the gates" I'm sure that Satan is delighted to see all the division in the Lord's church at this location..and these elders will have to answer one day for the way lead this congregation.
|Outsider Looking In|
Re: Concerned for 4th
|July 30 2003, 7:28 PM |
To Chris and the other liberals at 4th Ave: you have been brainwashed. I hope you will recognize this false teaching before it's too late. I'm amazed at the number of "elders" who cave in to this type of practice.
I'm not questioning your sincerity or that of the elders in your DESIRE to save souls for Christ. I question your TACTICS in how you do it. Change agents get into your heart just as the devil plants sin. Congregations that digress into these practices usually do so because it simply makes them feel good. They know they will grow and replace lost members because there are enough people "looking for religion" who find more modern, entertaining elements of worship to be enticing. Just look at how our entertainment industry has digressed to "anything goes". This is where you and others of your mindset are taking the church.....it's disgusting. Everything comes back to marketing....whether it's sales or the church. If you feel it's necessary to make changes to the New Testament, then you will build an association of those who do not totally adhere to those teachings. And unfortunately, that's a majority of the population.
And don't pick on this site or forum...there are tons of other web resources bemoaning youth ministers, worship leaders, and other heirarchy that very closely mimic denominations. It's all there if you choose to read it; I hope you will.
If you choose to associate with these liberal worship practices, then please remove "Church of Christ" from your building. Your worship service will be no more honorable to New Testament teaching than mass conducted by the Pope.
|July 31 2003, 12:07 PM |
I am encouraged by your comments and CB's comments, and Members's. We must stand up to the evil ones that cannot discern the truth. "Solders of Christ must Arise" and battle those that would try to quench the work of the Spirit. The Sirit is doing wonderful things in many places.
|August 1 2003, 12:23 AM |
I've read a couple of places on this site about removing the Church of Christ name from signs and have this question:
If CofCs are truly autonomous, why should one that uses "liberal" practices have to remove the name?
Wide and Narrow Way
|August 1 2003, 10:49 AM |
The Narrow door is faith in the finished atonement through Jesus on the cross.
It is His righteousness that saves.
The Wide Way is any path other than through HIS finished work on the cross.
Let us not confuse this with anything else.
There is a reason for the hymn. "My hope is built on nothing less than Jesus blood and righteousness."
" I dare not trust the sweetest frame but wholy lean on Jesus name".
Wide and Narrow
|August 1 2003, 5:52 PM |
I can buy that!
So, here is what we do. We fire the SECT of HYPOCRITES who were "rhetoricians, sOPHISts (snakes in Revelation), singers and musicians." After all, in the Greek world their JOB DESCRIPTION was to function as sorcerers or soothsayers or "technes" (Exegetes, hermeneuts) and you just know what is gonna happen to those who MOCKED AT THE FOOT OF THE OLD RUGGED CROSS trying to MINIMIZE Jesus Christ and the CROSS.
And, hay, the Greek world also knew them as PARASITES. The parasites were like the Warrior musicians assigned by the KING and COMMANDERS to serve (hard bondage) the priest at the ALTAR and SLAUGHTER PEN where the TYPES of Jesus were sacrificed. Jesus took pains to inspire the text which shows the residual MINSTRELS were cast on the Dung Heap where the CARCASES of the TYPES of Jesus were cast. In the Greek temples they were know as PARASITES because they got a SHARE OF THE FOOD for ministering to the priests. Know what? The place of the SKULL was probably foul smelling from blood and guts.
Don't cry, blasphemy. Every Bible reader knows that the temple was LIKE THE NATIONS because they demanded a KING LIKE THE NATIONS and God knew that it was so that they could WORSHIP LIKE THE NATION and be destroyed.
So, if we are gonna gather at the CROSS then we need to tear down the building or sell it for a honkey tonk because Paul said that the ONLY place we would find Jesus was OUTSIDE THE CAMP which meant OUTSIDE THE TEMPLE. Neither God nor the Jewish congregation ever ENTERED INTO THE TEMPLE.
We have already fired the staff. Get rid of the elders because their authority is in a TIGHT LITTLE CIRCLE: "To teach that which has been taught and rebuke those who oppose it."
Now, we are left with only the CROSS but where oh where is that JESUS you are talking about? Didn't HE say that he would be in the midst of TWO OR THREE? Uh. Does not mean TWO OR THREE THOUSAND? Don't know but 2 or three or a good class size of about 20 is a good place to start. But, where is Jesus?? Well, Jesus said MY WORDS are SPIRIT and LIFE and Paul limited the SINGING and melody to the heart. Huh? How else can JESUS teach us the Spirit Mind of Christ when we are in the singy clappy mood.
Now to WORSHIP. Did you know that the worship word Paul defined means to fall on your face like a dog licking the masters boots. Just try to do that hold hold your angelic harps!
However, Jesus defined worship as IN THE SPIRIT which is the PLACE of the human mind and not INSPIRITED OR ENRAPTURED. And, as a matter of GREAT GRACE we don't have to do the falling exercises any more. Paul's UNIQUE worship word was to GIVE HEED to Christ by GIVING HEED TO HIS Words. Now, we can obey Paul to Timothy and "Give attendance to the public READING of the Word." Then, like Jesus, we can explain the doctrinal content and admonish one another. Men like Luther, Calvin and the Campbells defined CHURCH as "the school of the Bible" or of Christ.
Now the CROSS is gonna be hard to find so what do we do? Well, we pick up our only VERY LIGHT CROSS and follow Jesus so that we don't price fix or put the thumb on the meat scales or STEAL the church houses of widows. Or as the Greeks knew: don't pay for parasites because they CONTRIBUTE NOTHING but the destruction of faith and morality and SPIRITUAL religion.
EVERYONE defined as righteous under the LAW were personally right toward God and practiced justice to their fellow man.
Know what? That 30,000 or 40,000 bucks stolen form the hard working "worshipers" can then be put into the hands of Jesus Christ by using it to give Him a cup of cold water of the Word--without FURTHER EXPOUNDING which is PRIVATELY INTERPRETING the Words of Christ which Peter outlawed and which one cannot do--for a price--without spitting in the face of Jesus. Furthermore, the FREE BY GRACE believers will not have to sweat all week knowing that they will never be able to educate their children! And that might make them WORSE THAN INFIDELS. And guess who BURNS for it.
If YOU ever meet Jesus and you are a singy clappy type YOU are not going to notice. SHE will be an old widow who has always gone to 4th and suddenly is like one who finds her HOUSE stolen and friends chased away by the MOST WICKED of people.
Oh Well, she probably deserves it. She was BLIND enough to give up her children's heritage when the ELDERS claimed that YOU MUST GIVE IT TO THE LOUURRDEee. One of the LESSONS learned the hard way is that many of you have learned that only thieves try to SHAME you into TITHING. And only very ignorant men extort (in Paul's words) by what they have INVENTED as the "Law of Giving." Isn't that legalism? Didn't Jesus Himself pay the TEMPLE tax. Did He ever ask for a CONTRIBUTION? No because there is NOTHING CHRISTIAN which demands a FEE or a TAX but the help of the PROSPEROUS if they are DESTITUTE. If you drop "something in the pot, boy" YOU fail to grasp the meaning of the CROSS.
So. You can give all of your FORTUNE to the Lord but if you give it to the elders for buildings and grounds I can almost guarantee that in the most conservative church you will not know the AGENDA until they get all of your money.
YOU DON'T OWE THE INSTITUTION ONE RED PENNY. So, Come out of LEGALISM into GRACE as the only way to STARVE OUT the Parasites.
Looking forward to JUST JESUS AND ME at the foot of the old Poplar tree.
Remember now, "JUST JESUS" doesn't allow you to slip in the soothsayers and parasites. And for goodness sake if YOU are a PARASITE pretending to be a SORCERER with the power to BRING THE WORSHIPERS INTO THE PRESENCE OF GOD, I don't believe it to be judging to say that Jesus is going to treat you just like a TICK or other blood sucker.
|November 3 2003, 11:18 PM |
I cant find anywhere in the Bible where the wide way is associated with the way to God and eternal life.
Matt. 7:13-14 discuss both and "narrow is the way which leadeth unto life". Interesting is that vs. 15 discusses false prophets in sheeps clothing.
I think you need to rethink your wide and narrow theory.
|August 1 2003, 12:17 PM |
Good question Phil. The truth is that they are not independent. Just an unwritten set of rules.