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Kenneth Sublett
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4th NO music in Christianity!

July 2 2004, 11:33 AM 

From the book of Enoch quoted by Jude to define for WHOM God will come with ten thousands of His saints to judge the ungodly:


1 And Uriel said to me: 'Here shall stand the angels who have connected themselves with women, and their spirits assuming many different forms are defiling mankind and
    shall lead them astray into sacrificing to demons as gods, (here shall they stand,) till the day of the great judgement in

2 which they shall be judged till they are made an end of. And the women also of the angels who

3 went astray shall become sirens.' And I, Enoch, alone saw the vision, the ends of all things: and no man shall see as I have seen.

After Judah went astray with a Canaanite woman:

23. Now I have much grief, my children, because of your lewdness, and witchcrafts, and idolatries,
    which ye will work against the kingdom,
    following them that have familiar spirits (The Witch of Endor used an empty wineskin as a echo instrument)

The familiar spirit is not a 'little channeler" from Osburn's ACU but is a musical instrument: a hollow WINESKIN:
    Owb (h178) obe; from the same as 1 (appar. through the idea of prattling a father's name); prop. a mumble, i. e. a water-skin (from its hollow sound); hence a necromancer (ventriloquist, as from a jar): - bottle, familiar spirit.
Similarly, a Psaltery is:
    Nebel (h5035) neh'-bel; or neÇbel nay'-bel; from 5034; a skin- bag for liquids (from collapsing when empty); hence a vase (as similar in shape when full); also a lyre (as having a body of like form): - bottle, pitcher, psaltery, vessel, viol
    Nabel (h5034) naw-bale'; a prim. root; to wilt; gen. to fall away, fail, faint; fig. to be foolish or (mor.) wicked; causat. to despise, disgrace: - disgrace, dishonour, lightly esteem, fade (away, - ing), fall (down, -ling, off), do foolishly, come to nought, * surely, make vile, wither..
The sounding brass among the Greeks (1 Corinthians 13:1) was a more sophisticated "familiar spirit."
    Echeo (g2278) ay-kheh'-o; from 2279; to make a loud noise, i.e. reverberate: - roar, sound.

    And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Lu.21:25

    Echos (g2279) ay'-khos; of uncert. affin.; a loud or confused noise ("echo"), i.e. roar: fig. a rumor: - fame, sound.

    For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest, Heb. 12:18

    And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more: Heb.12:19

The Testament of Judah continues:

ye will make your daughters singing girls and harlots for divinations and demons of error, and ye will be mingled in the pollutions of the Gentiles:

for which things' sake the Lord shall bring upon you famine and pestilence, death and the sword, avenging siege, and DOGS (catamites) for the rending in pieces of enemies,

and revilings of friends, destruction and blighting of eyes, children slaughtered, wives carried off, POSSESSIONS PLUNDERED.

temple of God in flames, your land desolated, your own selves enslaved among the Gentiles,

and they shall make some of you eunuchs for their wives; and whenever ye will return to the Lord with humility of heart, repenting and walking in all the commandments of God, then will the Lord visit you in mercy and in love, bringing you from out of the bondage of your enemies.

24. And after these things shall a Star arise to you from Jacob in peace, and a Man shall rise from my seed, like the Sun of righteousness, walking with the sons of men in meekness and righteousness, and no sin shall be found in Him.

And the heavens shall be opened above Him, to shed forth the blessing of the Spirit from the Holy Father

100% of the time the Bible, ancient contemporaneous documents, the Classics, the church fathers and the "death count" among theatrical performers makes the absolute claim that music is POLLUTING because USERS AND ABUSERS use it to fool the fools to keep you from listening to the ALREADY EXPOUNDED songs of Jesus the Christ of God: the ONLY Holy Spirit.

Grace is simply the favor or good pleasure of God to save us so that we can become DISCIPLES of Christ. This was God's contrast to the fleshly Grace- Focused religions of homosexual gods and goddesses and emasculated or "sex changed" priests called DOGS as the "ministers of the gods."


II. as a word of reproach, to denote shamelessness or audacity in women, rashness, recklessness in men, Hom.

II. the Trag. apply the term to the ministers of the gods; the eagle is Dios ptênos kuôn Aesch.; the griffins Zênos akrageis kunes id=Aesch.; the Bacchantes Lussês k. Eur., etc.

Paul and Peter OUTLAWED "prophets" because you might open yourself up to false prophets without knowing it until you have been afflicted. In this he grasped the statement of Jesus that the NEW PLACE of worship is in the human spirit and NOT in places, not in houses built by human hands and not by the WORKS of human hands: music has always been the most works-intensive art and is therefore pure LEGALISM and always POLLUTED and polluting:

    Beware of DOGS, beware of evil WORKERS, beware of the CONCISION. Ph.3:2

    For we are the circumcision, which worship God IN THE SPIRIT and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh. Ph 3:3

The MUSIC-DOG connection is 100% and none of the heretics (word includes house building) can save your soul.

    For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. Re.22:15
ANYONE who tells you that there is a hint of approval of any kind of music in the worship of a HOLY (wholly) Spirit God loves to lie. Anyone who denies that the Bible--from Genesis to Revelation--associates music with repudiating God and His Word loves to lie. Of course, they won't answer: that is part of the PLAN of the agent of evil. They have the property, you have an empty bank account so you cannot educate your childrn and whats to argue about. Remember, that anyone who OPPRESSES you and takes you CAPTIVE by claiming the "law of giving" is also a liar and a thief. They are quite wecome to find a shred of evidence: they won't and they CAN'T because the MUSIC message is that you have fallen and will never get up.

I don't intend to get personal but I am telling you that the universal PERSONA of performing rhetoricians, sOPHISts (serpents), singers, musicians and craftsmen (techne includes house building) is not pretty. I don't know why people have the need to present this persona as representing God in Christ standing in their holy place (Podium, tower)


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Member at Fourth
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You make me sick Kenneth

July 4 2004, 2:08 PM 

Come to Fourth Avenue. See what its like. See hearts being moved. See God working. Quit living off hear say. If you have problems with our styles of worship, don't gossip about it. What does that do? Have a Christ-like conversation with the people who lead it. You are a sick man and you need a change.

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Second That
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Amen 4th Member

July 11 2004, 7:58 PM 

Amen Member at 4th - Kenneth indeed is a sick person, who sure is pleasing the devil with his divisiveness of the Lord's church!!

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Ken Sublett
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Report on a visit.

August 7 2005, 5:59 PM 

I got to clap today and listened to an outstanding sermon by Joe Beam..

My wife and I walked up to this CoC building in Franklin,Tn and as we approached the building..there was a sign that told of it's beginning in 1833 with names like Alexander Campbell...The people were so friendly and on fire that if we went home before the worship began...we would have been blessed..but it was a contemporary service that was involved in progressive worship style and it's hard to believe that this old congregation supported it's leadership by accepting a contemporary worship service with praise teams of both men and women facing the front..

It was so sweet to see the little girls passing out information cards...a lot of clapping and some hand raising..It did my heart good to see the spirit of worship being expressed without the condemning spirit of others frustrating their efforts.

The older lady in front of me had been a member many years and I said,I bet you have seen a lot of changes here...She smiled and said yes...The problem they have is enough parking and room for all the people..However,it's only worship style and no righteousness comes by it either each his own.

[posted on iBelieve. Did Keith furnish the DODADS?]

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Ken Sublett
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Eat, Drink, Clap and Make Mary! It's a MARK.

August 7 2005, 6:27 PM 

Clapping as APPLAUSE points to you guys and that is why you try to DEFUSE those who out you with mocking. But WE know who is doing WHAT, don't WE? I don't think you want to use the word etiology. Maybe look up another one. However, I am giving you WORD DEFINITIONS and HOW they are used in all of the texts. When I tell you that you people USE the word PSALLO in order to USE the paying audience, AND I tell you that you land RIGHT in the middle of perverts plucking the harp string or bow string then THAT is what it means. Any kid with remedial reading, 3rd grade, would interpret IN THE HEART as NOT on a harp.
    Epilêkeô, A. clap the hands in applause, or beat time to the dancers, Od.8.379.

    Homer, Odyssey 8:

    But when they had tried their skill in throwing the ball straight up, the two fell to dancing on the bounteous earth, ever tossing the ball to and fro, and the other youths [380] stood in the lists and beat time, and thereat a great din arose. Then to Alcinous spoke goodly Odysseus: "Lord Alcinous, renowned above all men,2 thou didst boast that thy dancers were the best, and lo, thy words are made good; amazement holds me as I look on them."

    Krotos , ho, A. rattling noise, made to collect a swarm of bees, beat of the feet in dancing, snapping of the fingers, clash of arms rhuthmoio . 2. k. cheirôn clapping of hands, applause, b. in token of RIDICULE

      Rhuthmos , Ion. rhusmos (v. infr. 111, IV), ho: ( [rheô] ):-- A. any regular recurring motion.. measured motion, time, whether in sound or motion, 2. special phrases: en rhuthmôi in time, of dancing, marching,

    Thorubos , ho,

    A. noise, esp. the confused noise of a crowded assembly, uproar, clamour... a confused clamour 2. esp. in token of approbation or the contrary, a. applause, b. groans, murmurs, great murmurs are abroad among us,

    II. TUMULT, confusion, 2. confusion of mind, I ran a risk of being stoned,

It was prophesied that Messiah would not CRY OUT or call a popular assembly of the MASSES. Therefore, when we see this APPLAUSE word it ALWAYS speaks of popular and usually destructive or perverted groups.
    Thorubos (g2351) thor'-oo-bos; from the base of 2360; a disturbance: - tumult, uproar.

    When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing, but that rather a TUMULT was made, he took water, and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person: see ye to it. Mt.27:24

    And he cometh to the house of the ruler of the synagogue, and seeth the TUMULT, and them that wept and wailed greatly. Mk.5:38

    And when Jesus came into the rulers house, and saw the MINSTRELS and the people making a noise, Mt.9:23

When you say pipers or fluters or minstrels you identified the PARASITE who sold their body: Flute-Girl and Prostitute are equivalent.
    Auletes (g834) ow-lay-tace'; from 832; a flute- player: - minstrel, piper.

    He said unto them, Give place: for the maid is not dead, but sleepeth. And they laughed him to scorn. Matt 9:24

    But when the people were put forth, he went in, and took her by the hand, and the maid arose. Matt 9:25

Put forth is:
    Ekballo (g1544) Ekballoek-bal'-lo; from 1537 and 906; to eject (lit. or fig.): - bring forth, cast (forth, out), drive (out), expel, leave, pluck (pull, take, thrust) out, put forth (out), send away (forth, out).
The Minstrels or musical team were theatrical performers. Therefore, CLAPPING was to put them forth or out. They had no place in the healing presence of Jesus:
    BALLO (g906) bal'-lo; a prim. verb; to throw (in various applications, more or less violent or intense): - arise, cast (out), dung, lay, lie, pour, put (up), send, strike, throw (down), thrust. Comp. 4496.
One use by the Greeks is:
    Sku-bal-izô , look on as DUNG, reject CONTEMPTUOUSLY,. skublizô: --later squabble

    Skubalon (g4657) skoo'-bal-on; neut. of a presumed der. of 1519 and 2965 and 906; what is thrown to the dogs [catamites], i.e. refuse (ordure): - dung.

      Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, Ph.3:8

      Skulon (g4661) skoo'-lon; neut. from 4660; something stripped (as a hide), i.e. booty: - spoil.
CLAPPING has much the same meaning: By APPLAUDING HIM you EXPLODE HIM:
    EX-PLO-DO (EX-plaudo ), to DRIVE OUT or off by clapping; orig. a scenic word said of a player, to hiss or hoot off, EXPLODE HIM.

      II. Transf. beyond the scenic sphere.
      A. To drive out or away, to CAST OUT, to SCARE AWAY,
Congratulations on the Jesus Mocking Team. This is EXACTLY what they did whey they PIPED hoping that Jesus would sing and dance the PERVERTED Dionysus dance (the Abomination of Desolation.)

I PROMISE YOU, if I EVER find MUSIC in a religious sense which is not the MARK of prostitutes and sodomites doing RELIGION, I will let you know! Hey, the Vineyard (aka New Winskin Lady) and most "worship teams" gladly CONFESS to leading you into a sexual encounter with the SPIRIT.


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Re: Eat, Drink, Clap and Make Mary! It's a MARK.

August 8 2005, 1:58 PM 

i think you made your point ken

by the way 4th avenue church is a lot bigger than yours, had far more baptisms than yours and their mission program is far larger than your church, correct?

but since you've not approved of these guys, it's all wrong, right.

i'm so glad you have all the answers.

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Ken Sublett
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August 8 2005, 3:14 PM 

What I want to know is how many of the OWNERS did you lose before you added the ATTRACTANTS? Other than that I don't car what you guys do or any system of RELIGINISM does: it has no connection to the ekklesia or synagogue or school of the Bible which has NONE of the legalism of singing songs as ENCHANTMENT, the Law of Giving or the Law of Tithing, or WORSHIP as rituals. Jesus DIED to give me REST from the laden burdens of the clergy which means "spiritual anxiety created by religious rituals."

REST means almost totally stop the preaching, stop the singing, stop it stop it stop it.

I don't DO BODY COUNTS because I will bet that not one of yours understands the meaning of DISCIPLESHIP which has NOTHING in common with worship rituals.

I don't HAVE a house in which "god cannot be worshipped" and like Paul, Jesus didn't send me to baptize so that the kiddies can chew gum and eat some of that stuff.

My very expensive MINISTRY has been restructured to cost me about a hundred dollars a month. With that I GO into all the world with sunlight or batteries and do about 250,000 "sermon listens" a month. My favorite count is from people who have removed their children from clappy-clangy noise which destroys their spirit and those being EXORCISED from the LAW OF GIVING. So, MY body count is SUBTRACTIVE rather than ADDITIVE AND ADDICTIVE.

You could do better with some good belly dancers. Again, I don't much care except for those you have betrayed because there is NOTHING Christian about a MUSICAL service. It DOES fulfill the prophecy of Revelation 18.

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Dishonest leadership

April 2 2006, 11:44 AM 

Fourth Avenue has a power hungry, dishonest leadership. Certain leaders want to force the instrument in and drop the "of Christ" part out of the title.

Perhaps that's why the last minister left.

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Ken Sublett
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April 3 2006, 10:14 AM 

Is this the church Joe Beam scooped up?

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the future of 4th avenue

April 23 2006, 2:36 PM 

Don't know about instruments at 4th avenue in their future but their "worship leader" did talk them into buying him an expensive recording studio. And many are now wondering why it's taking so long to get that pulpit filled. I mean this is a church that split just a few years ago. Well that worship leader apparently feels with his talent and a "star" preacher they can be the next "big thing." Just ask Jeff Walling how many times they've called him this year about that job and he keeps turning them down. What they forget is the average joe in the pew doesn't know "celebrity preacher names" like folks writing to this site. They forget that whether it's Max Lucado Rubel Shelly or even Jeff Walling or Rick Atchison or Mike Cope each guy came to their congregation as basically a "unknown" in the brotherhood and built a relationship and credibility thru 15 -25 years of loyal service. 4th has passed on many good people because of a view of wanting a quick fix with a big gun to lead them into a whole new building and school on property they've already been looking into for a year. Few preachers of any credibility want to (1 want into a place where the first goal is to raise of boatload of money for a new building or (2 risk having to pretty much answer to a song leader. Joe Beam was the preacher but it ended up being the Ken Young Show each week and he does hog that pulpit with his praise team. And the elders are still trying to deliver a noteable name because Ken is promising the next Saddleback right there in Tenn if they do...This sounds like dramatic rumor talk right? Came to me from a guy caught up in the new preacher search.SO HOW LONG DOES IT TAKE TO FILL THE JOB at 4th ave? They're aren't even close now because the "celebrity names " they keep going to say "no thanks." Joe Beam make it perfectly clear he was taking that job on an "interim basis" so they've had a spell to be planning on this challenge. Just be glad the same fellows who run that church aren't running a big corporation. If they were they'd be the next Ford or General Motors. There ARE solid members there. And about 300 new ones who came about the time Brother Shelly announced he was leaving Woodmont Hills. Maybe the solid members can have a heart to heart talk with the two guys trying to run the whole thing. And if you're a DO know what i mean.

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April 3 2006, 10:40 AM 


Do you think the rocks should cry out instead of believers? On what authority did people spread their cloaks or cry out in loud voices praising Jesus as he passed on the colt in Luke 19:35-40? Could it be that they used the heartfelt emotion that God created in them to praise God with all that was within them? They used their passion and zeal for God's glory! We should do the same. If I'm happy, I smile. If I moved to raise my hands toward God in adoration of his diety, I raise my hands. If I want to applaud God for his goodness, I clap my hands in greatefulness to the King of Kings. One question... I know of no scripture authorizing smiling in worship. I see people smiling in worship? where is that authorized?

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Ken Sublett
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Still waiting for Messiah? Too bad, too sad.

April 3 2006, 10:57 PM 

Beyond this short ditty, You need to learn about the prophecy of Jesus sitting on an ass and the BRANCH spreading ritual which Jesus UTTERLY FULFILLLED along with bringing salvation: why do you STILL want to revert to LAW as all musical 'worship' clearly pleads for? In the words of John Calvin we might paraphrase: "Why are the PREACHERS still sitting on their ASSES while the threshing Oxen are starving?" Huh? Tell me if you can.

Matt 21:8 And a very great multitude spread their garments in the way; others cut down branches from the trees, and strawed them in the way.

Matt 21:9 And the multitudes that went before, and that followed, cried, saying, Hosanna to the son of David: Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord; Hosanna in the highest.

You will remember that these people were BURDENED by the clergy who rode them like pack animals. Jesus would come to give REST which means "stop the singing, stop the loud speaking, stop the instrument: just stop it, stop it, stop it and rest" because the SABBATH was not for ritualistic, paganistic worship but for REST. Can you comprehend the word REST as in the word REST? No?

They were on the FAR SIDE of the Cross and were crying out for MERCY like lost souls: they were not effeminate males singing and clapping to SILENCE JESUS:
    G5614 hÿsanna ho-san-nah' Of Hebrew origin [H3467 ] and [ H4994 ]; oh save!; hosanna (that is, hoshia-na), an exclamation of adoration: — hosanna.

    H3467 yasha yaw-shah' A primitive root; properly to be open, wide or free, that is, (by implication) to be safe; causatively to free or succor:— X at all, avenging, defend, deliver (-er), help, preserve, rescue, be safe, bring (having) salvation, save (-iour), get victory

    H4994 n'naw A primitive particle of incitement and entreaty, which may usually be rendered I pray, now or then; added mostly to verbs (in the imperative or future), or to interjections, occasionally to an adverb or conjugation:—I beseech (pray) thee (you), go to, now, oh.

You confess that you don't KNOW WHO IS THIS MAN? Why are YOU still greeting Messiah 2,000 years after He HAS COME, given the rest and salvation the people LACKED and cried out for and act like the Scribes, Pharisees and Hypocrites. Did no none tell you that Messiah HAS COME?

Matt 21:10 And when he was come into Jerusalem, all the city was moved, saying, Who is this?

Matt 21:11 And the multitude said, This is Jesus the prophet of Nazareth of Galilee.

Matt 21:12 And Jesus went into the temple of God,
    and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple,
    and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers,
    and the seats of them that sold doves,
Jesus CAST OUT the buyers and sellers just like he CAST OUT or ejected the Musical Minstrels LIKE ONE EJECTS DUNG and as Lucifer (Zoe) was cast out of heaven using a word meaning to "steal your inheritance, play the flute, pollute and prostitute." Peter identifiers retailers of the Word as MERCHANDISE as adulterers.

Jesus PAID IT ALL and Paul repudiated the notion of A LAW OF GIVING.

Therefore, you CANNOT be a Christ follower POST the Cross and use church for MERCHANDISING. You cannot provide work for professional speakers or singers or clappers or dancers or--as in all similar paganism--soothsayers and prostitutes. Jesus cut you OFF AT THE KNEES and He will NOT heal you.

Matt 21:13 And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves.

The synagogue was a SCHOOL OF THE BIBLE and a house of prayer. That is the meaning of the ekklesia: it is not a pagan worship center. The word SPEAK for the ekklesia is defined as "in a whisper or conversational tone." You don't MUSICATE when Jesus is teaching you or you PRAYER: the Hymns were PRAYERS.

The synagogue defined in Romans 15 to EXCLUDE arousing pleasure or excitement was in consideration of the INFIRMITIES of other people. Loud noises creates the SPIRITUAL ANXIETY Jesus died to eleminate by firing the BURDEN LADERS. Here is the approved example where speaking "that which is written" or "scriptures" is the way Jesus provides COMFORT as the COMFORTING Spirit.

Matt 21:14 And the blind and the lame came to him in the temple; and he healed them.

The Great Physician brings SPIRITUAL healing and heals BLINDNESS because His Word is the source of LIGHT and LIFE. Therefore, while Jesus is there to heal the blind through the Word, you are QUITE HAPPY to turn it into a circus which the most immature girl child would not NORMALLY fall into.

Matt 21:15 And when the chief priests and scribes saw the wonderful things that he did, and the children crying in the temple, and saying, Hosanna to the son of David; they were sore displeased,

Jesus is the ONLY High Priest and we worship in the PLACE of our human spirit only when we GIVE HEED to the Word of Christ which is Paul's ONLY worship word. The children HAVE BEEN GIVEN rest from the rituals and it SORE DISPLEASES THE SCRIBES (writers of songs and sermons), Pharisees (change the law to sell to steal the houses of widwos) and Hypocrites which includes "performance preachers, sOPHISts (the serpents), singers, musicians and TECHNE. These were "theater builders and stage managers." In Revelation 18:22 they will go away but they have performed SORCERY v. 23 and God has blown out the LIGHTS (v 24.)

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Re: Still waiting for Messiah? Too bad, too sad.

April 4 2006, 10:01 AM 


Where is in scripture do we have the authority to smile in our worship assemblies? Smiling is an outward expression relecting an inward felt emotion, feeling or passion. Is it not?

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Ken Sublett
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Re: Still waiting for Messiah? Too bad, too sad.

April 4 2006, 6:38 PM 

People naturally smile when the pontificators and musicators sit down and shut up. Have you ever noticed the mental distress on people's face when they walk past the preacher, lie and say "great sermon" and can't tell you WHAT he spoke about 15 minutes later at the steak house. That is what happens when you have the WRATH of God poured out meaning ORGE meaning that God sends you "jesters, buffons and fools" to FORCE you to laugh as the end-time LAUGHING EXERCISES. It is a mental disorder created by hypnosis.

My kids forced me to buy hearing aids: I used to go to church and when the SANGING began I could plug them in and TURN them off and SMILE........

Thanks for confessing that you have NO possible way to refute what God in Christ commanded for SCHOOL OF THE BIBLE which has the same authority for "music" as the pagan temples had "back rooms" for the last act of worship. It's all a mercinary den of thieves and house of merchandise.

Now, try to digest what I have said and don't give me the old: "But YOU use toilet tissure and God didn't command toilet tissure" stuff.

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April 4 2006, 8:41 PM 

ken.....i read this post every now and then to humor myself with the banter. i never read your entire posts because you just ramble. i would like to read them but i'm not (and dont think many others do either) sit there and read the "mini-books" you post for a response. not a knock at you (well not entirely), just giving you some pos. critisism to shorten your like 95%! at any rate. i go to 4th, proud of it, dont agree with everything there but who agrees with everything all the time at their home congregations? i happen to be partial to a cappella, but do not feel it to be a salvation issue. that is the point here that i feel you should be aware of. 4th is the most prayerful church i have ever seen....EVER! there is real grace and worship there. any way....let me ask you to please respond, short answer please, to alexander campbells ACTUAL quote of:

"if a church has no real devotion or spirituality in them, music might be a pre-requisite to devotion. but to all spiritually minded christians such aids would be as a cowbell in a concert"

now, obviously campbell is saying he does not prefer it, but that it's alright. this is NOT a salvation issue ken. it is preference. why does God speak of harps in heaven if he has such a big problem with it?

ken, you use this site to attack those who worship in a different manner than you. see that i use the word attack. have you ever read some of the responses you have posted to others on this site? the hate and sarcasm you type towards other christians outrageous. while you work yourself up into a frenzy behind your computer screen to verbally "rebuke" and out-greek & out-scripture others, you more often than not are typing a hateful tone towards others. your arrogance is not christ like ken. now im sure you will edit this/spin this to your liking, because ive been told that you do. you wouldnt be a man if you did that now would you ken? i cant help but envision what you are like and i cant get away from an image of a miserable old pharisee of a man with no happiness in your life. ken, i will pray for you tonight for God to soften your angry heart. really.....i will! i think you actually mean well here.....but you are so misguided. there are salvation issues and then there are non-salvation issues. this is a non-salvation issue.

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Re: ken.....

April 5 2006, 9:02 AM 

Amen Bighoss! I totally agree. Ken...we all love you and just want you to experience the peace and joy that is ours in Christ. I love Philippians 2 where it talks about how we as Christians should imitate the humility demonstrated by Christ. We all should be moving towards treating others as more important than ourselves by showering others with love and grace.

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Ken Sublett
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Re: ken.....

April 5 2006, 9:45 PM 

Big Ass, I am addressing people who will GLADLY STEAL THE CHURCH HOUSES OF WIDOWS in the interest of NEW STYLE WORSHIP from OLD STYLE BABYLON.

If you cannot GRASP that Jesus nowhere defined outward worship other than GIVING HEED to the Word in the ekklesia, synagogue or SCHOOL OF THE BIBLE which he died to found to get the Doctors of the Law who TAKE AWAY THE KEY TO KNOWLEDGE off our backs and give us REST, then Ken is POSTING the word for the FLEECEES. REST is used throughout the literature in a dedicated sense to mean: Stop the singing, stop the preaching, stop the musisic, stop the PANic and just REST.

The Sabbath was for REST and not worship: it quarantined the Israelites from the Babylonian WORSHIP built around the Sabbath and the Tithe. The people were created as "labor saving devices" and they SERVED the Agent of the gods as "singers, dancers, musicians, soothsayers, priests, prophetesses and PROSTITUTES." According to many ancient resources, when you musicate and get people aroused, Carol Wimber the Vineyard claims to be producing a SEXUAL LIKE CLIMATIC experience with God. The pagans and VOODOO people claim to "make the gods COME." Among the Greeks they recognized is as Oral or Visual ORGASM. They claim it: I disclaim it with my FOOT on their evil mouths.

Jesus gave us REST and Cast Out the musical minstrels like one ejects dung. Jesus exampled and Paul commanded and the church PRACTICED the synagogue or school of the Bible for hundreds of years.

The end time Mother Prostitute Goddess is devoted to LUST and USES the same singers, instrumentalists, craftsmen (theater builders and stage managers), GRINDERS etal. Then John identifies them as performing SORCERY as ALL musical words mean. Then the LAMPS are removed: no more light.

Therefore, I teach the facts and if you feel the attack it may prove that you are probably on the unlawful dole and cannot face the truth. I would still care less except a band of INSTRUMENTALISTS claiming to be church of Christers have conspired to RESTRUCTURE churches of Christ and they mount the true HATE CAMPAIGN against anyone who will not BOW TO BAAL when the clergy pipes.

If you guys just give it up and quit stealing churches--a congenital defect of the Stoneites--then happy non-instrumental churches of Christ will perform very well with out a PhDuh from ACU to be "Prophet, Chaneller and Facilitator" to go out and MANAGE THE CHANGE.

I quote the facts for those who want to know that there is NO MUSICAL content to any worship of a spirit God. And ALL musical terms used as PROOF TEXTS come from males PLUCKING the harp to groom the 'youth ministers' for pederasty--that which then and now is claimed to BIND the flesh and spirit together.

I don't LIKE them and my example is Jesus who CAST OUT the musicians and Paul who repudiated the worship of the CONCISION AND DOGS by confining worship to be in the PLACE of the human spirit--right where Jesus said is the ONLY place God even looks for worship. There is no other way to express the COLLECTION PLATE upset other than to say that God in Christ was Pissed off. The Lamb I honor will come with rods of iron, and if Isaiah 30 has meaning for us as it did for other nations, then he will BEAT people into the FIRES with musical instruments.

So, if you bandits are stealing from the poor to BE MEDIATORS in song and sermon I think you are vipers and you will just have to like it: there is no nice way to tell bandits to take their saddle off the backs of widows and hard working HONEST PEOPLE.

Worship happens only when you BURN UP or sacrifice the FLESH. There is NO law of preaching because there is no preacher based on the bible and most of church history other than evangelists, NO law of Giving because Paul told me so and all of church history before the Wild Frontier Americans restored Gnosticism. No law of SANGING: for those with A holy spirit the word is SPEAK, preach, teach and admonish. Paul for the literte put BOTH the singing (as arousal) and the MELODY in the PLACE of the human heart or Sprit because GOD doesn't listen or watch the body worship (Isaiah 11).

There is NO INSTITUTIION: people call themselves into assembly, study the word, pray, take the Lord's Supper, DON'T take up a collection, DISassemble themselves and like the EKKLESIA there is no INSTITUTE left to suck up the time and money from the DESTITUTE.

So, guess Ken will tell you NOT to drink KoolAid and those who Water the Wine and retail the Word as RETAILERS (polluters re. Peter) will just have to get used to the fact that the ABUSED are as mad as hell and are not going to take it any more. There is not GENTLE way to tell people to quit feeding and fondling VIPERS.

Now, take one of the BIBLE TEXTS or GREEK definitions which you cannot PROCURE from any Anti Christ University for ANY amount of money, and tell me what is wrong with it. If you want a lover, go watch the fellas musicating in the holy places.

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oh, my!

April 7 2006, 7:34 AM 

wow ken, your christ like example once again is incredible! i can so hear Jesus himself calling me big-ass. i can so hear his sarcastic voice saying a curse word. if we a couple of things:

1) what on earth was all that ramble you just typed? are you sane ken? prostitutes stealing from the hard working man????? what on earth are you talking about???? i dont think that you are sane and therefore i probably wont respond much more to your posts because one cant debate logically and/or scripturally with someone who's head is in la-la land.

2) you didnt even respond to the question i had for you in regards to the ACTUAL QUOTE by cambell. are you going to respond to that ken (logically of course). CAN you respond to that ken?????? or have you been thrown a curve ball that you can not hit? I AM CHALLENGING YOU TO RESPOND TO THIS ACTUAL QOUTE KEN.

ken you are a spiritual fraud. you can type scripture and greek till your fingers fall off but you are still a fraud. nothing about you say anything of being a true christian. nothing about you is meek or humble. you rip everyone on this site who disagrees with your view of the scripture, damn them to hell under the guise of "standing up for what is written", "standing up for Gods word".....oh yeah, you say if i/we feel insulted by that then we must be feeling our guilt. read the TONE of Hebrews for the example i am trying to make you understand. it is not what you say BUT how you say it ken. i wonder what the book of hebrews would have sounded like if you had been the author? allow me pontificate verse 1 & 2 of the "ken sublett" authored version of the book of Hebrews:

"whoa to ye big-ass prostitutes of thy time, thieving from the shephards whom toil and the hard working man, have ye no faith? damn ye to the eternal lake of sulfer and fire, that ye children may scream in torment whilest thou zoe group playest thou harp for ye for eternity. "

ken.....maybe you need to pray that God allow you to relax. maybe you should go to extremes and crack open a budweiser and watch some of the masters golf tournament.

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Ken Sublett
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Don't blame me: God beat me to it!

April 8 2006, 4:12 PM 

I called you BIG ASS because that is what you have made of yourself. In the words of John Calvin "why should the lazy asses be fed while the plowing oxen starve?'" Indeed. Wow, Rubel has soothsayed "Located Missionaries" to go along with the Missional Church with Apostles and Profit. Or, as we say down in the holler: "Apostates and Profits."
    2) you didnt even respond to the question i had for you in regards to the ACTUAL QUOTE by cambell. are you going to respond to that ken (logically of course). CAN you respond to that ken?????? or have you been thrown a curve ball that you can not hit? I AM CHALLENGING YOU TO RESPOND TO THIS ACTUAL QOUTE KEN.

    "if a church has no real devotion or spirituality in them, music might be a pre-requisite to devotion. but to all spiritually minded christians such aids would be as a cowbell in a concert"

    now, obviously campbell is saying he does not prefer it, but that it's alright. this is NOT a salvation issue ken. it is preference. why does God speak of harps in heaven if he has such a big problem with it?

Just like Jesus, I get PISSED OFF when I see collection plates (called trumpets) and MUSICAL MINSTRELS. Why do you feel so spiritual and lie so beyond redemption? Why do ALL of the "instrumental" proponents feel the URGE to lie about the Bible and the total Restoration Movement. I know that it is now PERMITTED in the postmodern, postBiblical, post-Christendom world of the Missional Church cult.

Maybe if I can keep from lying to COLLECT and unlawful WAGE for conducting a pagan form or religion defined as that of the harlot WOMAN in Revelation 18, and ignoraing the direct commands for the SYNAGOGUE (from which music of all forms was excluded) to speak WITH ONE MIND and ONE MOUTH using THAT WHICH IS WRITTEN or SCRIPTURE to Edify or educate, glorify God and NOT deliberately sow discord I and be all of the things you called me as a not too polite RACA.

I think that to quote tidbits is so preachery and so dishonest that I shudder for your soul. First, you should know that the Reformers came out of an absolute REPUDIATION of singing "the erotic, praise witchy songs" intending to perform the WORLD'S ODLEST PROFESSION of prophesying. None of te groups which made up the RM could bring themselves to even THINK that such a horrible thing would be afflicted on People after men like Calvin had RECOVERED them from apostasy. Further, you may not know that not even Catholics dared ever to "sing congregatonally with an organ accompaniment."

Now, look at the CONTEXT and then tell me that Alexander Campbell gave YOU authority. Mr. G had recommended instrumental music because the worshipers of MARS used it. And indeed, the Catholic Encylcopedias says that "music was adopted because it was COMMON to all pagan cults." That happened AFTER the pagans came flocking into the priesthood to GET PAID.

Alexander Campbell responds to the letter from Mr. G: The argument drawn from the Psalms in favor of instrumental music,

is exceedingly apposite to the Roman Catholic, English Protestant, and Scotch Presbyterian churches, and even to the Methodist communities.

Their churches having all the world in them--that is, all the fleshly progeny of all the communicants, and being founded on the Jewish pattern of things--baptism being given to all born into the world of these politico-ecclesiastic communities--

I wonder not, then, that an organ, a fiddle, or a Jews-harp, should be requisite to stir up their carnal hearts, and work into ecstasy their animal souls, else "hosannahs languish on their tongues, and their devotions die."

And that all persons who have no spiritual discernment, taste, or relish for their spiritual MEDIATIION, consolations and sympathies of renewed hears, should call for such aid, is but natural.

Pure water from the flinty rock has no attractions for the mere toper or wine-bibber. A little alcohol, or genuine Cognac brandy, or good old Madeira, is essential to the beverage to make it truly refreshing.

So to those who have no real devotion or spirituality in them, and whose animal nature flags under the oppression of church service, I think with Mr. G., that instrumental music would be not only a desideratum, but an essential prerequisite to fire up their souls to even animal devotion.

But I presume, to all spiritually-minded Christians, such aids would be as a cow bell in a concert.

Now, you tell me that JESUS ALSO needs a Bud when he "cast out the musical minstrels" more or less violently as one CASTS OUT DUNG?

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WOW........Ken you "suspended" me from this site but have graciously allowed me back in!

July 27 2006, 11:58 PM 

Ken.........thank you for finally publishing my post. i think i stumped you at first and you "banned" me because you did not have a response and needed time to do some research, probably at the woody loden library at freed-hardeman. anyway, your argument is very, very interesting. it is an argument that i myself must research and read about. i do not profess to have all the answers, nor do i think you do, nor does anyone else in this world. my basic point is that we as members of the church of christ do an awful lot of divisional arguing about things that i personally feel are NOT salvation issues. that is my mind is open, not closed. i am not the christian man i should be.....but i will never reach that plateu. that is why i depend on God's promise of grace and mercy. i am always looking for someone to challenge my mind and my heart so that i may seek greater spiritual wisdom. i just happen to think that in regards to this debate, you are wrong. in my heart i believe the teachings of the "old paths", but i also must be spiritually wise enough to attempt to recognize the weak points of those teachings so that i may become closer to God, Jesus & the Holy Ghost.

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What Happened At the Madison Church of Christ?

There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

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Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

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5 Godly Elders
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120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
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Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)

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