To date, we've heard the now infamous "Get Over It" speech and the Elders are now looking to hire a professional "Worship Minister." I had not heard of the Community Church movement up until very recently, but having lived in Nashville all my life I have been aware of the happenings at Madison Church of Christ, West End Church of Christ and the split in Hendersonville. I am not 100% that this movement is what is happening within our Eldership, but it sure smells like it. The general feeling is that several of the Elders are the fuel behind this and the rest have been influenced to varying degrees. Most of our Elders have been in place for years, so this has been very upsetting and confusing for many. Any thoughts?
Two Sundays ago the Elders informed the congregation that they were seeking to employ a "Worship Minister" in order to reach the un-churched of our city and to give God our very best. Of course the majority of the congregation was left wondering what a Worship Minister was, as this topic had never been discussed by the congregation at-large. (First Alarm went off).
I was recently directed to this website and up until now was not aware of the Community Church movement. I'm not 100% that this is what is happening at our congregation, but these events have left a large number of our congregation wondering what is going on and articles and information from this site are now floating around concerned members. The one item that made my blood run cold was the mention of a "Get Over It" speech - we've gotten that forceful message from the Elders recently (Second Alarm going off). Not to mention the secrecy of the plan to hire a Worship Leader -which includes extra lighting, sound and video components as well as praise teams. With secrecy being a large component of this equation, trust has become a big issue, leaving many in a "holding pattern," unwilling to give fully of their time, resources and heart.
Additionally, stewardship has become a hot topic among concerned members, who are frankly dumbfounded by this type of spending. It seems we have been worshipping in "spirit and in truth" for centuries without lighting and sound technicians. I'd love to have seen the apostles following Jesus around with a trailer full of props and assistants. It seems to me He did more than just fine without any such aid. This type of decision-making is completely foreign to my lifelong experience in the Church, as I think it should. The Elders have stated that they want to transform us from a "traditional" Church of Christ to a "liberal" Church of Christ. It's just amazing - I don't remember the congregation deciding that! All said, my family is planning a quick exit as it's high time we finally act on what our "gut" has been telling us for some time. The congregation has amazing potential, which has made our decision even more heart-wrenching.
What do you want to hear, that your church is about to experience a new rebirth? Well get ready. And what you need to do is to rally the like minded brothers and you need to not put up with the false changes and stand your ground. If you do not the place will be lost. Read that: the property will be lost to these liberal people. And if the property is taken, please tell them to have the decency to take the pictures of famous preachers that are on the walls of the library and to send the library of restoration literature that you have to some place that respects it. Those that will stay will not respect it.
We currently have a petition called a "Declaration of Concern" we will be presenting to the Elders. We have at least 100 signatures now. The problem is that the way the change is occurring - slowly and secretly. Most think it is an honest attempt to enhance the worship service. For those who are aware of the true level of change that will come (including past Elders and current deacons, etc.), there is a great deal of concern and urgency, but most just don't know. There are many who are prepared to leave if these changes happen, so maybe the lack of $ will wake some people up.
First of all, let me say by posting here, that I do not necessarily agree with everything said or posted here by the site administrators, and would that I would also highly encourage them to be more discerning in the teachers that they advertise in their weekly emails - one article in the past which was advertised supported an article by Paul Proctor which was premillenial through and through.
Despite this, the aim of "warning the brethren" day and night in the spirit of Acts 20:30,31 is something which is an ugly necessity in the times in which we live.
I hope and pray that your elders still have an honest enough heart to listen to the members of the congregation. If that is the case, then they will realize at the very least that they are on the verge of causing a split in your congregation and stop what they are doing. However, I want to share with you some of my experience in the business world and alert you to the mode of thought people generally fall into when they are going to implement a change.
Some years ago, I worked for a massive retail/direct sales computer company that was the largest of its kind in America. We brought in billions in revenue every year, however, we were not profitable whatsoever. The higher ups in the company got together and decided to drastically change the way that we do business - and centralize our operations in one location and remove many of our face-to-face reps. One of the things that any business does when they are implementing such a change is to consider the possible impact on the current customer base. Everyone figured that some customers would not appreciate losing their face-to-face reps, and so the company had to figure out how many customers we could lose with this new system and still be more profitable than we were before. This is what is known as "acceptable attrition"
You might be shocked to learn that it was decided that we could lose over 60 per cent of our current customer base and still be more profitable. I want to tell you that working for this company during this time was one of the more unpleasant experiences of my life. However, we were told and trained that no matter how many people called and threatened to cancel their contracts and were unhappy, that we were to let them. This was the new way of doing business and if they wanted to do business with us this was how it was going to be. In fact, the company actually designated certain contracts were "money-losers" and actually set out trying to default them so that we would not have to have those customers any more. This kind of approach was disastrous - our attrition was actually closer to 80 per cent, and today that company is barely even viable as a direct sales entity.
My point is this: it's naive in these situations to believe that the eldership there has not considered the possible (or certain) loss of membership. Especially in the situation you are describing which is so well organized - I would guess that they even have a specific number in mind that they expect to leave initially, and you would probably be shocked at how large that number is. The point is - they don't care. If they don't show immediate signs of listening - that is, DOING the things you are asking about - but rather continue on in the same vein while trying to sound sympathetic, realize that they consider you to be a part of "acceptable attrition".
What you do about that situation will be up to you.
First, you should understand that when the Elders INFORMED the congregation instead of asked the congregation you have the first MARK of a religious CULT. The role of the elder is to "teach that which has been taught" and to "refute those who oppose it." Buildings and grounds and EXTRA BIBLICAL heresy is not part of their authority. Your "obedience" ends when he does not teach that which has been taught and when he turns out to be a WOLF loving to feast on lambs and fleecing the flocks.
"TRADITIONAL" is one of the secret code words of the Shellyites and their ilk. Removing TRADITIONS is a good idea. First, we can begin with self selected or peer selected elders more "apt to chase a coon than apt to teach the Bible." Paul asked that elders be POINTED OUT (not ordained) who were "already laboring to the point of exhaustion in preaching and teaching."
Next, traditionalism is getting a HIRED HAND whom they can dominate to "pull the chestnuts out of the fire" so the little monkeys don't get burned. That was traditionalism condemned by Paul, most of church history and the Restoration Movement leaders.
Now, the NEW tradition is of the preacher hired to hate the flock by becoming a dominant pastor with the elders serving under him as his board. Look to the preacher for the source of the lies which give authority to the elders who are Biblically illiterate because of the TRADITIONALISM of "workbooks" rather than the Bible.
The traditionalism has made "church" into a WORSHIP CENTER rather than a Synagogue of Christ where neither synagogue or church has ANY PRAISE SERVICE. The synagogue (Qahal) was begun by Moses and God outlawed the TRIUMPH which included "making a joyful noise before the Lord" which was all nation's WARRIOR CHANT.
Traditionalism is singing secular songs (blue, red, gold etc) rather than that which Paul specified as "that which is written, the Spirit or the Word of Christ."
Hiring a WORSHIP MINISTER has only the most ancient and superstitious paganism for its authority: it began at the towers of Babylon. This "worship" was STAFF INFECTED by "priests, prophets, soothsayers, singers, instrumentalists and male and female PROSTITUTES" so widely condemned by the Bible as the Qadesh, Qedeshim or qedeshot--the holy whores.
Even now PROFESSIONAL MUSICIANS have a reputation which began with Lucifer (ZOE) who came equipped in the garden of Eden with Wind, String and Percussion instruments. As the king/queen of Tyre she/he is called THE HARP- PLAYING PROSTITUTE. In the Bible SINGERS are associated with the ACT and the names of instruments with the temple-clustering PROSTITUTES. The instrumentalist who will arrive in your churches after the TEAM were always associated with the SODOMITES.
The not-elders are converting your church into A THEATER FOR HOLY ENTERTAINMENT and that according to all of the history including the end-time church in Revelation 18 will make your church into THE HOLY WHORE.
Stewardship: you are to blame. How? By being the ENABLERS of those who brag about INFILTRATING AND DIVERTING. Why is that? You began by believing the worst lie of church history called THE LAW OF GIVING. The Word of God is FREE, Jesus paid the temple tax and Paul said of the effort to save those destitute and starving "THIS IS NOT A COMMAND." All of history saw GIVING not as proportional giving but those WHO HAVE PROSPERED were urged to voluntarily help THOSE WHO WERE DESTITUTE. Not even able bodied evangelists were allowed to dally more than two or three days without getting a job or getting out.
There is nothing in the Bible and the Bible repudiates it that STEWARDSHIP must be directed from my hand into the hands of a SECULAR ORGANIZATION.
Next, the PATTERNISM is to lie to you about TITHING. As they say at Madison if you don't TITHE God will curse you. They used Kregg Hood's (Sweet VP) book on tithing. Kregg speaks in tongues, heals and looks forward to raising the dead in America.
"Liberal" means lying about the Bible and repudiating it as inspired. Liberal means that we accept the Lucado Shelly THREE GOD polytheism. Liberal means that WE have the power of inspiration and that is why YOU must not, as I was told by a Madisoners, "Question God's celestial beings."
"Traditional" is the Shellyite code word which relates almost totally to the church of Christ view AGAINST the "musical" concept and for "teaching" through singing. They lie and stink worse than my wet Chow spread over the kitchen floor just having dined on a deer carcase.
The ANTI-musical theme began in the garden of Eden when Satan WHOLLY SEDUCED Eve and Adam BOWED WILLINGLY. ALL of the musical concepts in the entire Bible speak of Satanic influence which causes people to tell God: "We will not listen to your Word."
In every "musical" event it is a MARK that the people had fallen beyond redemption. The Levites made a great crashing noise to mask the horrors of slaughtering thousands of animals, blood pouring like rivers, dung spread over the place, and the noises of animals dying as a TYPE of Christ. Jesus CAST out the musical worship team trying to influence the "gods" during the healing of the girl "LIKE DUNG.
The Levite "noise makers" were NEVER in the holy place as a type of the church or body of Christ. If even a singer went into the type of CHURCH they would have been slaughtered like one of the animals.
The Bible and history is 100% in treating musical performers in the presence of a holy God wanting to TEACH us through His Words as the work of PROSTITUTES and SODOMITES.
You are asking for a dose of SPIRITUAL AIDS from which the church will never recover. The "logic" for introducing singers and/or musicians is EXACTLY the same authority which would authorize the beyond-redemption non-elders to add PROSTITUTES and SODOMITES which I can assure you will suck in more of the same type which professional singers suck in.
Apollo (Abaddon or Apollyon) is the pattern for the SEEKER CENTER in John's revelation and the MUSES were both his singers and GODDESSES. John prophesied of Apollyon digging up the dead muses as LOCUSTS or "musical performers."
The BIG lie is that churches of Christ INTRODUCED the non-instrumental view and became the non-instrumental SECTARIANS. The TRUTH is that the church of Christ has existed under that name in every period of history and all groups repudiated the MUSICAL concept as polluting to a Spiritual discipline.
Those who tamper with the MUSIC ISSUE are following the Lynn Anderson "Prayerful brinkmanship" game which DEMANDS the deliberate SOWING OF DISCORD which will make your "synagogue of Christ" into a "synagogue of Satan."
The same authority which allows evil men to USURP AUTHORITY gives you and the congregation the authority to FIRE THEM and cast them out as evil "stealers of church houses of widows." They are like one who would enter your house and give himself the authority to be the surrogate HUSBAND and FATHER. Jesus in advising one's readiness in case a thief enters into the house gives you the AUTHORITY to put him out. If they did the same thing to a business, like Enron, they would do hard time on the Rock Pile of hell.
You need to perform YOUR MINISTRY and help EXORCISE the "Giving Demon" without wasting any time: the plan is to get the old faithfuls to pay the bills and then CHASE THEM AWAY to fill the ranks with children already brain dead through music. You do know that the TYPE they want to introduce includes ROCK and that is from VOODOO and is one of those "F" words. Why tolerate people who are clearly beyond the bounds of minimal human consideration? You need a plan to INFORM all present and past members.
Why use PERFORMERS who even in the almost weekly news articles are SYMBOLS of evil and perversion to REACH the lost when the lost already are addicted to music which produces the morphine- like Endorphin which creates the impulse of FIGHT, FLIGHT or SEXUALITY?
What they are saying is that they ARE going to let the unholy whores STAND IN THE HOLY PLACE which in Jerusalem was the Zeus-Dionysus "worshipers" where sacrifice, music and literal sexuality was performed RIGHT IN the holy places as the Abomination of Desolation with which the piping Jews tried to AFFLICT AND INFLICT upon Jesus Christ to PERVERT HIM. Never BOW TO BAAL in the presence of a musical or theatrical performer.
I'm not sure if Ken is a psychologist or a psychoanalyst ... or about the psychology courses he studied in college.
Now, James, how would you describe yourself? Please fill in the appropriate word so we can get to know you better: you are a ___________________________.
Donnie
This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address 68.19.232.114 on Jul 20, 2005 10:43 PM
Where is in scripture that the role of elder is to "teach that which has been taught"? We are not to "teach that which has been taught" but to teach the truth! That which has been taught may be tradition and false doctrine and not truth. Jesus warned about "teaching that which has been taught" to several religious leaders. We are forever seeking and learning new truths. Not one brother or sister has reached perfection. Nothing is more unholy then for men and wowmen to exalt themselves to the position of divine interpreters of the sacred word.
Titus 1:8 But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate;
Titus 1:9 Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.
Titus 1:10 For there are MANY unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision:
Mataiologia (g3150) mat-ah-yol-og-ee'-ah; from 3151; random talk, i.e. babble: - vain jangling.
1 Tim 1:6 From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;
Titus 1:11 Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucres sake.
The Bible is filled with the MANDATE that the role of the EKKLESIA or SYNAGOGUE is a "school of the Bible." Paul defines that in Romans 15 and specificially OUTLAWS the kind of PLEASING which creates MENTAL EXCITEMENT. That word points directly to the charismatic (always perverted) singers and musicians in pagan religionism.
Then, Paull commanded that we use ONE MIND and ONE MOUTH to edify or educate with "that which is written" or 'Scripture' where Psalms, hymns and spiritual songs are the INSPIRED TEXT. That outlaws self composed sermons not expository and clearly ASSAULTS anyone who would bring music into the SCHOOL ROOM when Jesus Christ is the teacher ONLY when the leaders teach that which has been taught always defined as the WORD.
That is the ONLY way to glorify God and not the musicators and to KEEP THE PEACE. Any usurper who brings any form of PRAISE SINGING into the assembly is engaged in the most ancient, paganistic, superstitious, legalistic, patternistic practices known to those who wrote on caves. The musical PROPHESER (the Lord, Lord sayers Jesus will not KNOW) were the OLDEST PROFESSIONALS.
No one can pontificate and musicate and be ignorant of that: therefore, many peaceable churches of Christ have been invaded by "the idolatry of talent" which is pagan idolatry.
Every child of God has the sacred obligation to "be ready always to give answer to every man that asketh you a reason concerning the hope that is in you, yet with meekness and fear" (1 Pet. 3:15). We are to "contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered unto the saints" (Jude 3). Our Lord told us to "beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravening wolves" (Matt. 7:15). Our responsibility is no less than those Christians of the first century who were told, "believe not every spirit, but prove the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets are gone out into the world" (1 Jno. 4:1). The past twenty years have seen an ever increasing defection of once-faithful, stalwart soldiers of the cross. Men who once stood in the gap and wielded the sword of the Spirit with skill and effectiveness have gone over to the enemy.
A once faithful brother wrote: "It is not possible to overemphasize the damage done by perverse preceptors. They not only cause division (a thing God hates), but the ultimate outcome of their treachery, whether that treachery be witting or unwitting, is eternal loss to all who are led astray by their influence." With regard to our Lord's admonition, "beware" is a forceful word. It is a warning. It says to us, "Look out, danger, peril, jeopardy, risk, hazard." It screams at us, "Pay attention. Be on guard."
We are locked in a battle with error. Truth will prevail, of that we are certain. But we must do our part to uphold that truth, moving neither to the left nor to the right. There is always the danger that a little compromise will eventually lead to wholesale apostasy. Hence the need to answer false doctrines forcefully, faithfully, and forthrightly. Time is of the essence; souls are at stake; the cause of Christ must not suffer! Unfortunately the ranks of those who will address the issues continue to diminish. But if we are to pass the torch to the next generation we dare not waver in our sacred duty to uphold the truth at all costs. The late F.B. Srygley was right on target:
"Fighting for the Truth is almost a lost art. Men who are enjoying the benefits of the Gospel unmixed with human error, are enjoying these benefits because our fathers fought for the Truth. Every inch of ground from that mysterious way of being saved, which was better felt than told, to the plain conditions of pardon as taught in the New Testament, was fought out for us by our fathers. If someone before us had not fought for the Truth, most of us might yet be in the fog of denominational teaching. This is not the time to temporize or make friends with error (F.B. Syrgley (Madisonville, KY: In Word and Doctrine, Oct-Dec, 1992), page 19; originally appeared in the Gospel Advocate, 1928)
False teachers have been tolerated, ignored, and in some instances embraced by unfaithful elders, preachers and members. Far too little has been done in answer to the false teachers presently assailing the walls of Zion. We only pray that it is not too late to take our stand and defend the truth.
It's going to be important to educate your fellow members as soon as possible.
Send ConcernedMembers an email with your address, and how many members you have, and we will send you some postcards
like these. concernedmembers@webmailstation.com
Post Card:
Thanks
This message has been edited by ConcernedMembers from IP address 65.80.181.222 on Mar 13, 2003 1:16 PM
power corrups, total power corrups totally. no place in the scripture gives elders total power over the flock of God. if you had not allowed yourselves to be hoodwinked into letting a few unconverted men rule over you, you would not be in this mess. the evanglist appoints the first elder. why should he not appoint the last one? elders appointing other elders is Godless mess. that is why we are about to have a war. dictators. the elders think, and you concer, they are the only voice in the church that matters. let me come and preach one week and all of them will resign, which is not a scriptureal thing to do. you can't resign from God's work. you have made your bed hard and now you must lie in it. josh stafford
Josh if absolute power corrupts the eldership why would not absolute power corrupt the EVANGELIST? Josh, Paul Revere was an "evangelist" or herald. There can no more be a LOCATED EVANGELIST than there can be a located travelling salesman.
Here is where the church fell into the deep well of apostasy. Don Finto got his revelation and returned to Nashville to proclaim:
"By this time I had seen that in the New Testament, elders were appointed by apostles...by Paul and Barnabas...by Titus" (Belmont p. 2).
"The books of Timothy were written so that Timothy would know how to set elders in order in the churches. God has used me to do that in other churches" (Ibid. p. 2)
Evangelists were commissioned to GO and not to stay.
Tit 1:4 To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour.
Tit 1:5 For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee.
Proving that Titus had no local authority, Paul continued to define those who were to be POINTED OUT as already laboring. Titus knew which men were working with Paul and therefore approved by him. Paul was inspired but we don't have any of those around.
First, Paul an APOSTLE appointed by Jesus Christ writes this letter telling Titus to point out elders.
Second, Paul told him the QUALIFICATION.
Third, Paul had ALREADY appointed to Titus those who should be selected: they would ALREADY be doing what an elder should do as the ONLY located pastor- teacher.
-----KATHISTEMI = to appoint a person to a position (Vine) (Titus 1:5) "Not a formal ecclesiastical ordination is in view, but the appointment, for the recognition of the churches, of those who had already been raised up and qualified by the Holy Spirit, and had been given evidence of this in their life and service."
Fourth, there were OVER 100 cities on Crete and it is evident that Titus did not see himself as the overseer of any of these many city flocks because Paul has to write a letter authorizing and admonishing him to "get on with the work" for which Paul left him on Crete.
Fifth, by pointing out those already qualified by Paul's Apostolic authority he would confirm those who were ALREADY the natural leaders ALREADY laboring in preaching and teaching. The person should be pointed out as the model for the flock to follow.
Sixth, Timothy a more notable evangelist than Titus had been ordained and instructed by both Paul and the ELDERS.
1 Tim 4:13 Till I come, give attendance to READING, to exhortation, to doctrine.
1 Tim 4:14 Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery.
There is no OFFICE of "PREACHER." Evangelists would naturally detect those who WOULD and COULD perform as a PASTOR- TEACHER. However, the only way to DETECT a leader is to see whether people are ALREADY following him because of his faithfulness to the word and they watched "the outcome of his life."
He is POINTED OUT by having his OWN personal holy spirit or mental disposition.
With all due respect to the people who maintain this site, if you are posting or reading messages on this website, I ask you for the scriptural basis for the venting of these things in this venue. Are you not supposed to be sitting down in love and prayer with your brothers and sisters with whom you have a difference? If you are a member at Fourth Avenue, stop believing the lies and misinformation that is being spewed forth from this site. There is no community church ulterior motive. There is no wish for anyone to leave.
How would people who do not even attend Fourth Avenue even know the congregation? If you are a member of the congregation, then how is the airing of differences on this site bringing unsaved people to the strong knowledge and saving grace of God?
There is a stong desire to use tools that we have been given to spread the news of Jesus Christ. I plead with you to stop ego and selfishness and pride from standing in the way of our being able to sit down and talk. This is not the forum. This is not the place. I have very little hope that this message will get through to you, because it will probably be edited or erased. I have signed my name to this posting so you will know who I am. I will not hide and try to be anonymous. I will stand up for Truth. Please get away from this site. Its mission has nothing to do with the spreading of the good news of Jesus Christ. It has everything to do with people sitting in judgement of others.
The commission of Jesus is to teach and also to admonish and warn.
You state: "There is a stong desire to use tools that we have been given to spread the news of Jesus Christ."
Does that mean that YOU believe that God has give you the TOOLS of the musical worship heresy to SPREAD the news of Jesus Christ?
Jesus THOUGHT that He gave us ALL of the tools which is the WORDS OF CHRIST, the SPIRIT or THAT WHICH IS WRITTEN so that we can WITH ONE MOUTH AND VOICE glorify God. If you believe that your SOWING OF DISCORD move into the BABYLON HARLOT form of "musical religion" is going to be FORCED on others then YOU must believe that you are MORE inspired than Jesus or Paul. Indeed, the 13th apostles DO so teach that the Bible has been "sifted through philosophy and the personal agenda of the Bible writers so that ALL we have left is the CORE GOSPEL of seven FACTS ABOUT Jesus Christ." (Shellyism which is Sillyism).
If you believe that this end-time Babylon form of MUSICAL PERFORMANCE trumps the WORDS OF GOD then you may not want to OUT yourself so completely.
The ORIGIN of musical "worship" is from SATAN and all scholarship knows that "THERE IS NO OTHER TRADITION." You guys DID NOT FABRICATE the "LOOK AT ME" form of music: it began with Lucifer (ZOE) who as the king/ queen of Tyre was the HARP PLAYING PROSTITUTE in the garden of Eden. She/he went into SHEOL with his/her harps and harpists. See the HARPS and HARPISTS here:
You state: "There is a stong desire to use tools that we have been given to spread the news of Jesus Christ."
Did you know that Jesus cast out the MUSICAL WORSHIP TEAM (funeral, weddings, religious festivals, coming into the presence of the gods) MORE OR LESS VIOLENTLY "LIKE DUNG" IS SCATTERED.
If you follow through with SOWING DISCORD it will have ZERO Biblical authority and 100% of historical authority which makes it a TOOL of Satan. All of the "pagan" gods were homosexual. In the Bible and secular literature SINGERS spoke of prostitutes and MUSICIANS spoke of Sodomites which, for much of the time, had a role in the perverted Temple in Jerusalem.
HERE IS THE FACT WHICH ELEMINATES YOUR "IDOLATRY OF TALENT" IN THE ASSEMBLY OR SCHOOL OF THE BIBLE:
1Pe.4:11 If any man SPEAK,
------let him speak as the ORACLES of God;
if any man minister,
------let him do it as of the ability which God giveth:
--that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
THERE IS NO ROLE FOR THE IDOLATRY OF TALENT IN THE CHURCH OF CHRIST: IT IS HISTORICALLY ALWAYS ASSOCIATED WITH THE "HOLY WHORE" RELIGIONS.
"The commission of Jesus is to teach and also to admonish and warn." - Kenneth Sublett
THIS IS A LIE.
Jesus Christ died on a cross for your sins and mine. Its a dangerous thing when men begin to put limits on the grace of Christ. Forget institution, forget "First-Century Church", forget the rules and regulations that are our objects of comfort, and get back to Jesus Christ. I don't ever recall a time when, as Christians, we are called to be "comfortable" in our faith. Mr. Sublett, people are starving to know the grace of God, and you are too busy on this website, posting about the problems within the church. Let's get our priorities straight, people. What is christianity? Is it the condemming of your own brothers? No, it is the blood that poured down the body Jesus Christ as he hung on that Christ... Remember that.
Member maybe you need a bucket to hold the thought for a few inches down the page.
Maybe someone will tell you that COMMISSION is not the same as DIE! My commission is to Go and teach. If your's is to go musical you DID NOT get it from Jesus. You got it in direct CONTRADICTION to Jesus--if you were a disciple of Christ that would be easy to read in prophecy and the NT.
MEMBER SAYS: Its a dangerous thing when men begin to put limits on the grace of Christ. Forget institution, forget "First-Century Church", forget the rules and regulations that are our objects of comfort, and get back to Jesus Christ.
----
KEN: the lust for a MUSICAL WORSHIP TEAM is 100% for YOUR comfort. It is NOT GRACE but the most ancient and ignorant superstition that a SPIRIT God can be worshiped with the works of human hands. Assuredly MUSICAL PERFORMANCE must be the most WORKS INTENSIVE and legalistic and GRACE REJECTING thing you could do.
GRACE means POWER. The Grace of God put POWER in the SPOKEN words which Jesus said are Spirit and are Life (John 6:63). Nothing in Christianity puts POWER in music. In fact, all of the ROOT WORDS for "music" speak of "grinding the enemy into a fine powder, twanging a bowstring to send a 'singing' arrow into the enemy's heart and is DIRECTLY RELATED to the SOP Jesus gave Judas AS A SIGN.
If you get back to JESUS CHRIST you might begin with Psalm 41 where it was prophesied that Judas would try and fail to TRIUMPH OVER Jesus. The Judas Bag "carried the mouthpieces of wind instruments" and TRIUMPH over which was OUTLAWED for the synagogue (Num 10:7) was "playing instruments and or 'making a joyful noise before the Lord." This was not MUSIC but a Warrior's Chant.
You might brush up on the Bible and grasp that when the MUSICAL MOURNING TEAM who could do religious festivals, funerals or weddings, tried to PERFORM in the presence of Lord Jesus Christ He CAST THEM OUT MORE OR LESS VIOLENTLY. The Greek word means "like CASTING OUT DUNG."
A thing can be CHRISTIAN when it is taught by Christ. Because Jesus repudiated the MUSICAL WORSHIP TEAM and other "musical" rituals added while in Babylon, it is NOT Christian to do PERFORMANCE MUSIC in His presence.
You might read the book of Revelation and understand that the HARLOT worship includes musicians and instrumentalists. (Rev 18).
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MEMBER: I don't ever recall a time when, as Christians, we are called to be "comfortable" in our faith. Mr. Sublett, people are starving to know the grace of God, and you are too busy on this website, posting about the problems within the church.
Ken: You are LUSTING to be comfortable. Music does not make spiritual changes. Music produces the morphine-like chemical ENDORPHINS in the body. Music produces this DRUG HIGH to make you THINK that you are BEING COMFORTABLE. Instead music produces the DRUG HIGH which produces the the impulses of FIGHT, FLIGHT AND SEXUALITY. So, the music you probably think is spiritual FIRST, like the Runner's High, has to injure your total nervous system before the DRUG HIGH kicks in very quickly and HEALS THE PAIN. What is left over gives you the HIGH which is not SPIRITUAL.
You have the problem if you participate in deliberately SOWING DISCORD and "stealing the church house of widows" just so you can extend your ADDICTION to music throughout the week into the PRIVATE SPACES and TIMES of people who come to worship in THEIR building. If they wanted to be ENTERTAINED they could buy a CD for just dollars.
There is NO music word used in the Bible in connection with Spiritual Worship. It is always connected with personal pleasure, warfare and was always the WEAPON used by the prostitute. The Bible and Legend sees Satan as the father who brought musical instruments with him right in the garden of Eden to pervert (sexually) Adam and Eve.
MUSIC in a religious sense had a CO-PARTNER which was literal sexuality. Carol Wimber the Mother of modern superstitious PRAISE SINGING likens ACT 4 to a sexual climax with God. The 4th Act, just as in all paganism, was GIVING OF SUBSTANCE.
Since MUSIC is never seen in an approved religious sense until recently, why do you think that MUSIC which PRODUCES the feelings of SEXUALITY is any more acceptable than LITERAL sexuality. They ALWAYS went together. For instance, the Abomination of Desolation in the temple in Jerusalem focused on MUSIC and SEXUALITY.
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Member: Let's get our priorities straight, people. What is Christianity? Is it the condemning of your own brothers? No, it is the blood that poured down the body Jesus Christ as he hung on that Christ... Remember that.
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Ken: Christianity DOES NOT mean a focus on WORSHIP RITUALS. You remember that Jesus didn't prescribe ANY. Paul even said that if you want to meet Jesus Christ you have to "go outside the camp" or "outside the CITY gates."
SERVICE in the Levitical musician sense meant HARD BONDAGE which is closely related to Apollo or Abaddon or Apollyon in Revelation.
Literal WORSHIP meant to fall on your face in a PHYSICAL SENSE. You absolutely CANNOT do that with singing, clapping and bumping and grinding your body.
SPIRITUAL WORSHIP for which Jesus died gives the GRACE to be able to worship IN THE SPIRIT. That means in the PLACE of the human spirit or mind. And it must GIVE HEED to TRUTH which is the Word of Christ.
SYNAGOGUE or school of the Bible or "church" was TYPIFIED by the Holy Place. Any singer or musician who dared enter into this TYPE of the church or body of Christ would have been instantly EXECUTED.
The WORSHIP is in the Most Holy Place is in the HUMAN SPIRIT. That is why worship probably cannot exist in a CHURCH OR SYNAGOGUE setting. You have to go INTO THE CLOSET as Jesus DIRECTLY COMMANDED in a quiet dark place even to be ABLE to pray.
Assuredly NO SINGER OR MUSICIAN could enter the MOST HOLY PLACE where worship takes place, NOW in our own mind. As a SINGER or CLAPPER you cannot go into my head.
Jesus so UTTERLY CONDEMNED the Jewish clergy and the majority of the people by refusing to preach the gospel to them except in the coded parable form. Jesus condemned the Pharisees which defines those who MAKE A SHOW of religion and CHARGE FOR IT. There is no grace for Pharisees.
CONDEMNING YOUR brother is to INFILTRATE AND DIVERT and "steal the church house of widows" to change the church of Christ (school) into a THEATER FOR HOLY ENTERTAINMENT and force the poor and widows into the LEGALISTIC (NO GRACE) "LAW OF GIVING" OR "TITHING."
You guys (you must be a musical type) SNATCH PURSES of the disabled and MY job is to warn others about YOU. That is the COMMISSION Jesus had given to ME.
Jesus gave ME permission to STAY AWAKE and watch for ROBBERS so that I can at least yell: "Stop thief" when you try to get away with it hoping that GRACE covers MUSIC as the invention of Satan to steal worship from God.
You don't know the difference between COMMISSION and DIED and you do not and cannot give a coherent definition of either WORSHIP or GRACE. God DOES NOT NEED and WILL NOT TOLERATE the latter day rise of the LOCUSTS (musical performers) prophesied by John in Revelation.
And He will hold me guilty if I do not warn YOU against committing the music sin which in the Bible and Legend is an UNFORGIVABLE SIN. Grace is not a "blue eyed blond singing and exposing herself as part of the team."
The blood remits your sins but only the gift of A holy spirit or clear conscience or consiousness comes by REQUESTING IT at the time and place of baptism. The blood of Christ was typified in the COURT in Jerusalem where the Levitical Warrior "sounders" made a loud, crashing sound while the priests were POURING OUT THE BLOOD of thousands of innocent animals to pay for their own sins. Why would you want to restore THAT music and crucify Christ all over again? Neither the blood shed or the "noise" was inside the Holy Place which one enters only through the LAVER and into which NO MUSICAN COULD DARE ENTER.
Let me repeat it: the MUSICAL WORSHIP TEAM was the typical Jewish (pagan) workers of magic among the dead spirits (demons). The "sounders" but not musicians in the COURT where they slaughtered the TYPE of Lord Jesus Christ could not enter the Holy Place (school) or the Most Holy Place where we meet God (Jesus). Jesus fulfilled this TYPE by casting out "like dung" the superstitious TEAM from where He does His Holy Work of healing broken spirits. IF you try to bring MUSICAL TEAMS into that church YOU are ignoring the total teaching of the Bible and the several EXAMPLES of Jesus Christ and IGNORING His warning and BARGING into His holy presence from where HE CAST YOU OUT--LIKE DUNG surrounding the slaughter pen where the "musicians" served the priestly slaughterers.
And I am telling you that the Book of Enoch quoted by Jude says that God comes with His ten thousands SPECIFICIALLY for people performing the LUCIFER PRINCIPLE of bleeding off worship due to God alone through the use of SATAN- TAUGHT CHOIRS.
I know Chris Norwood. You Ken are no Chris Norwood. "The heart of men." I know Chris' heart as man who is Godly and the least Self-serving man I know. If words are representation of what manifest in the heart - your representation is not of this world. Nor will your influence stand the test of time.
Jon Micah
I just looked in the mirrow and you are correct: I am not Chris! How did you know?
Chris made the point that we are to USE ALL OF THE TOOLS, the discussion was about hiring a MUSICAL WORSHIP LEADER, spending people's hard earned wages and remodelling as a theater for holy entertainment or something like that. Carnal Weapons could be musical instruments and Paul said they are not OUR weapons.
I don't have to know Chris to know that THERE IS NO OTHER TRADITION but that MUSIC was brought by Lucifer who lost his heavenly rights and, with his AGENTS, fell into the Garden of Eden to attack Adam and Eve because the EARTH was his domain before it was reworked to root out Satan. The serpent means a Musical Enchanter just as the OPHIS is the end time serpents. They are defined as sOPHISts who are false preachers, known as the sorcerers. All singers and Instrumentalists were known as PARASITES.
Lucifer came with wine, string and percussion instruments and while male was called the HARP PLAYING PROSTITUTE.
Music or any PERFORMANCE in the church moves it out of the descripton of an EKKLESIA which was NEVER more than A School of the Bible. Thomas Campbell noted that restoration meant making CHURCH into a School of Christ.
Music is a MARK that Apollo has turned loose the LOCUSTS as musical performers. They were sentenced into sheol by the MOTHER GODDESS and turned into LOCUSTS. The MARK is absolute that music is the MARK OF THE BEAST. In Babylonia she was INANNA the holy whore who stole the art of music from the FATHR GOD, she built temples where SHE was worshiped and she loved to SOW DISCORD AMONG PEACABLE BRETHEREN and tear down the temples. Later, she is ZOE as in the ZOE GROUP. She is known as the BEAST and FEMALE INSTRUCTING PRINCIPLE. She forced little son/brother "jehovah" to form musical worship teams to PRAISE her before she promoted him up to the seventh heaven, just below the Supreme Deity.
Read Revelation 18 for the LAST ACT and read earlier that the TEN HORNS were musical instruments of little perveted PAN who LOOKS TO THE HILLS and helps other build their own kingdom by using music.
Chris, be glad that you are not me. Tell your friend that I am not you although I have no reason to object.
Thank you for speaking up to people who are addressing issues they know nothing about or have heard only one side.They assume that what we are dealing with here is the same as another place. The elders at 4th Ave are among the most Godly, prayerful men I know. They are truely seeking to do the work of the Lord. To seek and save the lost. No where in the New Testament do I read about a church being a democracy. I don't recall getting to "vote" on how "my" money is spent. It is the Lord's money. The elders that have been appointed to lead me have the right and authority to make those decisions. That is why they are "shepherds" and I am "a sheep". Unless you know the hearts of the men you are speaking about,and have talked to them face to face you have no right to talk (or write).
This open dialog began with the statement by one of your members:
"Not to mention the secrecy of the plan to hire a Worship Leader -which includes extra lighting, sound and video components as well as praise teams. With secrecy being a large component of this equation, trust has become a big issue, leaving many in a "holding pattern," unwilling to give fully of their time, resources and heart."
NOTHING which happens in Franklin, Madison, Columbia etc., without directly involving people we love. Therefore, perhaps you can silence the cheap seats if you KNOW what is being planned and TELL your own members.
THE FOLLOWING STATEMENT IS ABSOLUTELY FALSE AND PROBABLY SELF SERVING:
-----"The elders at 4th Ave are among the most Godly, prayerful men I know. They are truely seeking to do the work of the Lord. To seek and save the lost. No where in the New Testament do I read about a church being a democracy. I don't recall getting to "vote" on how "my" money is spent.
Oh, yes you do! Peter told a couple that when they sold their property the money BELONGED TO THEM and not to the Lord unless they were willing to give.
THERE IS NO LAW OF GIVING in the New Testament. Paul said that JIM SHOULD LAY BY IN JIM'S COOKIE JAR until He saw the Apostle's team coming to take it to Judea in a GROUP.
Paul said "THIS IS NOT A COMMAND." Therefore, the elders have no authority to collect YOUR money and then SWITCH how it is going to be spent. That is UNGODLY.
In Paul's statement the PROSPEROUS owed the DESTITUTE food: they owed the elders nothing.
I suggest that you read the evidence which godly elders CANNOT use to make you believe that the ELDER's authority extends beyond "teaching that which has been taught" and "refuting those who contradict" the Written Word.
http://www.piney.com/LayByInStore.html
Thomas Campbell wrote:
------"The contracting of heavy and oppressive debts is proscribed.
------"No brother is allowed to enthral himself or others in any sort of worldly speculations which incur either anxiety on his part or inconvenience to others. The aged, feeble, and helpless are taken care of by the brethren.
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"It is the Lord's money. The elders that have been appointed to lead me have the right and authority to make those decisions. That is why they are "shepherds" and I am "a sheep". Unless you know the hearts of the men you are speaking about,and have talked to them face to face you have no right to talk (or write).
No, No: Shepherds DO NOT TAKE UP COLLECTIONS FROM THE FLOCK. The early elders WORKED in order to help support those who had "observed the outcomes of their lives" and picked them to be their TEACHERS and FEEDERS.
The HEART is evil if men decide that they have the authority to BYPASS the ONE ANOTHER role of the Body over which Jesus Christ is the head. They are Biblically and historically illiterate if they think that there is any authority to hire a TEAM to lead you into the presence of God with music. ALL such teams claim the role of Jesus as MEDIATOR.
Please tell us what YOU have become a WATCHTOWER SLAVE to defend and ADD which always deliberately sows discord.
How can you in good coscience comment about an "open dialog" not knowing if the statements made are truth of lies. You are commenting and making statements about a church and its elders under the assumption that the open dialog statements are true. I believe the Lord would want you to comment on facts and not things that could be lies.
Lucifer or ZOE (Eve, Mary, Inanna, Ishtar, Cybel) was the BEAST and "the female instructing principle." She was the king/queen of Tyre known as the HAPR PLAYING PROSTITUTE. She is the end-time Babylon Whore of Revelation 18 who organizes musicians (locusts, muses) and musicians.
Inanna or Ishtar was the HOLY PROSTITUTE and she was given the gift (ME) of the ELDERSHIP, MUSICAL INSTRUMENTS AND PERVERTED SEXUALITY. Here "worship service" was called THE HOLY TAVERN, kinda like the new perversion of Holy Theater.
She concentrates on PERFORMANCE "rocks"
Eze 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy TABRETS and of thy PIPES was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. [She/he also brought stringed instruments: the harp which went into Sheol with the Babylon whore]
Eze 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the STONES of FIRE.
28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee
28:16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
TO CAST AS PROFANE is from CHALAL from which we get HALAL (a TEAM) from which we get HEYLEL or LUCIFER:
----It means to play the flute, pollute or prostitute.
Lucifer was an ANNOINTED CHERUB on the ark which GUARDED the Word of God from people after they engaged in MUSICAL IDOLATRY at Mount Sinai and were TURNED OVER TO WORSHIP THE STARS.
Therefore, because I am a BELIEVER and quite literate about the MUSIC - HOMOSEXUALITY ABSOLUTE IDENTITY in all pagan musical religions, and the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION in the temple, Satan FINDS me under the following Rock and he cannot lay a hand (or, or, or) on me in musical, universally perverted pagan superstition:
2S.22:2 And he said, The Lord is my ROCK, and my FORTRESS, and my DELIVERER;
2S.22:3 The God of my ROCK; in HIM will I trust: he is my SHIELD, and the HORN of my SALVATION, my HIGH TOWER, and my REFUGE, my SAVIOR; thou savest me from VIOLENCE.
Mt.16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this ROCK I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
IF YOU BUILD YOUR HOPE ON LUCIFER'S ROCKS YOU ARE GOING TO GET BURNED AND END UP WITH A PLAGUE WHICH HAS NO CURE.
YOUR side has claimed that your "elder" and undoubtedelly an "eldress" or two are planning to spend YOUR money for THEIR Holy Theater they YOUR dialog is not to gasp and stutter but to TELL her that she is lying. OK?
My commission is to warn the few--a very tiny remnant--that they may need to get out before Satan's Rocks and Rolls falls on them and they get spiritual AIDS for which there is no cure and the PLAGUE in Revelation is WEEPING SORES.
I understanding the HISSING when I put my heel down. You singy- clappy boy-girls (king/queens of paganism) will WIN: it is prophesied and IN THE BOOK. That is why Paul said that we HAVE NO ENDURING CITY and we need to GET OUTSIDE THE CAMP which is the ONLY place we will find Jesus Christ as we share His SHAME. Lord Jesus Christ has come and gone and taken His candlestick with Him. Therefore, you walk in darkness and know not what thou steppest in.
Loyalty is a fine thing but loyalty to Christ comes first.
ONE product of the Jubilee is that Rubel Shelly sees the "ministers" as the BEST qualified to lead while the elders shepherd the ministers. Elders at times mislead but are also MISLEAD by those who see themselves as DOMINANT PASTORS or cult leaders.
David Lipscomb on Church Authority
"Whenever a man or set of men . . . assume to exercise authority in a church by virtue of some official appointment, or to assert, they have rights and authority as officers above others and assume to exert their rights without the full consent and approval of the members, they should be resisted even to the disruption of the body. They are lording it over God's heritage, and are exalting their authority at the expense of the authority of Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. One man, in the assertion and maintenance of the Divine will, has as much authority as another, more than a thousand ordained ones in disregard of that will. The ONLY REASON we have seen from Scripture for appointing certain individuals to special work was to see that NEGLECTED work was performed. The seven at Jerusalem were appointed to see that the Grecian widows, neglected in the daily ministration were fed. Titus was sent to set in order the things "wanting," and to place Elders in their proper work.
"Whenever a man in the church of Christ claims authority or exercises power merely on official ground, he is essentially a POPE and claims the prerogatives of papacy as fully as does he of Rome. He may be a smaller one, his sphere of action may be more limited, but the principle is the same. All the evils of the papacy arise out of the claim of the Pope and his council to decide questions by virtue of official position.--Gospel Advocate, 1877, Page 232
We have reviewed the SADDLE BACK COVENANT which guides many who have slipped from Jubilee, to Willow Creek to Saddleback:
Mr. Sublett: I do not know you or your intentions, however, I am certain that I am just as familiar with you as you are with the saints that meet at Fourth Avenue.
It is evident that you are addicted to your own style of pornography. You engage in self gratification via your keyboard.
If you are capable of pushing back from the computer, come visit the Fourth Ave congregation. You will be greeted warmly, accepted for who you are, and you will leave blessed by the visit. We are praying for you and everyone like you.
Annie, there has always been a TINY REMNANT of people devoted to TRUTH. However, the overwhelming majority of people ADDICTED TO RELIGION (as opposed to school of the Bible Jesus built) have built CHURCH on the name CIRCE or KIRKE the holy whore burried on an island within sight of Patmos when John defined WHAT TO WATCH for as the ENEMY OF CHRIST.
Church is almost 100% in mortal combat with the WORDS OF CHRIST (the ONLY resource for the "singing" commands). If you are singing the MANTRAS of brother or sister singer YOU are ADDICTED. I, being a DISCIPLE, can READ the Words of Christ WITHOUT A TUNE. Let's see you read Psalm 41 and see if you can SEE the prophecy of JUDAS trying to TRIUMPH OVER Jesus with his FLUTE which comes from the same Hebrew word as POLLUTE OR PROSTITUTE.
ALL MUSICAL PSEUDO-WORSHIP WORSHIPS THE COMPOSER AND PRESENTER AND IS "EROTIC" AS MUSICOLOGISTS ACKNOWLEDGE AND IS DERIVED FROM VOODOO-THE ULTIMATE SOURCE OF ALL CCM MUSIC.
The attack in the garden of Eden was musical - sexual as were all of the MUSICAL passages. This is why Jesus CAST OUT the Musical Worship Team "like dung." They called Jesus Baal Zebul and He treated them like the prostitute musicians of BAAL PEOR worshiped with DUNG.
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Priestly Performers were THE OLDEST professionals:
"In this fashion evey common tribal interest—the recurrence of the seasons, the increase of the food supply, successful hunting—was likely to become embodied
in some regularly repeated ceremony, which usually included group dancing, singing, and feasting.
Besides enabling men to express, and thereby to ALLAY, ANGER and ANXIETY, such ceremonies also promoted tribal unity and strengthened the loyalty of the individual to tribal traditions,
for the emotional excitement they aroused had the effect of breaking down the barriers between individuals
and thus fusing all tribesmen into a COLLECTIVE whole. Meanwhile, whole systems of MAGICAL devices were gradually elaborated." (H. Bamfort Parkes, Of Gods and Men, p. 29)
'Certain members of a tribe, marked out either by unusual skills or by some EMOTIONAL ABNORMALITY, ususally became particularly adept at these operations, and gradually assumed specialized functions. ("Normals" need not apply for the musical performing RIDING ON THE BACKS OF WIDOWS).
Released from the duty of hunting, and concentrating on the practice of magic, the shaman, sorcerer, or medicine man was the world's FIRST professional." (Parkes, p. 29).
"The development both of religion and of the arts can be traced back in a continuous line to the hunting era. The group ritual of the primeval tribesmen were the origin not only of all religious ceremonial, but also of the DRAMA and of POETRY and MUSIC, while magic gave birth to the visual arts." (Parkes, p. 30).
"Awed by the mysteries of his own spirit no less than by those of nature, primitive man was likely to attribute to divine influence
any ABNORMAL emotional state, whether above or below the usual level. Medicine men customarily went into states of trance in which they were believed to be in communication with the gods,
and many tribes supposed LUNATICS and SEXUAL DEVIANTS to be divinely possessed.
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You singy-clappy types are ADDICTED and are SPREADING your Baal-Peor worship throughout the church. I simply point out to you that a pseudo-church will ALWAYS have the symbols of VISIONARY or AUDITORY ORGASM as the Vineyard group boasts of. You probabably belong to the ZOE or NEW WINESKINS group: Dionysus was the god of NEW WINESKINS and musical perversion and was worshipped in the Jerusalem Temple as "The Abomination of Desolation" prophesied to come to your church again in the end times.
I do truly love to see the EXPLICIT SEXUAL symbolism in ALL church architecture: Circe and Satan wants you to blame me for your ADDICTION from which there is no recovery. Know why those people who got sucked into Baal-Peor worship were destroyed? They contracted a fatal PLAGUE. If you have been STUNG by the "music as worship" lie you have fallen and you will never get up.
I can survive YOU blaming ME for your fatal spiritual plague which is often a PHYSICAL PLAGUE as the MARK of the MUSIC industry. YOU have to worry about probably self-appointed "leaders" who steal money through tithing or THE LAW OF GIVING and then DIVERT it to satisfy their lust. MUSIC always meant trying to KNOW GOD PERSONALLY. All RELIGION is sexual or perverted sexuality. That is why Paul commanded you to go OUTSIDE THE CITY if you want to find Jesus and worship Him in your spirit which is YOUR MIND.
Annie, I want you to watch the pictures of downtown Bagdad. See that THINGY sticking up over the mosque? Well, the rest of the world doesn't try to CAMAFLAUGE their sexual symbols. But, you guys are INFILTRATING and DIVERTING just like the other Jubilating churches.
Unfortunately, the MUSIC-INDUCED drug produces the effects of FIGHT, FLIGHT AND SEXUALITY and the DRUG HIGH will wear off before the evening service and by Monday morning you will discover why Paul warned the musical Corinthians that YOUR ASSEMBLIES DO MORE HARM THAN GOOD. You MUSICAL types LIVE AND LUST over inflicting spiritual and emotional damage which is the meaning of Paul's word "MELODY" or Psallo which HE commanded you to keep under control and IN YOUR SPIRIT.
Annie, welcome to Pagananity: The priests, prophets, soothsayers, singers, musicians, acrobats and male and female prostitutes welcome you to BAGDAD (you know, Babylon).
Mr. Subtlet, you are one of the most un-christian, self-centered, self rightous people I have ever heard of. Get a life and pray, lest you fall into temptation. You are worse then the prostitutes and sodomist that you talk about. You are the devils servant. HE has invaded your heart and works agaist Christianity through you. There is a disclaimer at the bottom of the page. "This website is not part of or approved by any Church!" I could not agree more wholeheartedly with that. This most likely began as a good site, and you have ruined it. You have made it so that it is not a good site anymore and not in accordance with any church, or even "The Church." I am thankful that Jesus died for your sins, too. I am thankful that He is a forgiving God.
I know first hand about the situation at 4th Avenue Church, the elders may be sincere, however, I believe two or three of these men have an agenda to change this congregation's worship service into an entertaining show where 'anything goes'. The remaining men (elders) are brainwashed. I told one of these men that I felt they (the elders) were leading this church into the "wide gate where the way is broad" Matt. 7-13 and his response was that we "had to widen the gates" I'm sure that Satan is delighted to see all the division in the Lord's church at this location..and these elders will have to answer one day for the way lead this congregation.
To Chris and the other liberals at 4th Ave: you have been brainwashed. I hope you will recognize this false teaching before it's too late. I'm amazed at the number of "elders" who cave in to this type of practice.
I'm not questioning your sincerity or that of the elders in your DESIRE to save souls for Christ. I question your TACTICS in how you do it. Change agents get into your heart just as the devil plants sin. Congregations that digress into these practices usually do so because it simply makes them feel good. They know they will grow and replace lost members because there are enough people "looking for religion" who find more modern, entertaining elements of worship to be enticing. Just look at how our entertainment industry has digressed to "anything goes". This is where you and others of your mindset are taking the church.....it's disgusting. Everything comes back to marketing....whether it's sales or the church. If you feel it's necessary to make changes to the New Testament, then you will build an association of those who do not totally adhere to those teachings. And unfortunately, that's a majority of the population.
And don't pick on this site or forum...there are tons of other web resources bemoaning youth ministers, worship leaders, and other heirarchy that very closely mimic denominations. It's all there if you choose to read it; I hope you will.
If you choose to associate with these liberal worship practices, then please remove "Church of Christ" from your building. Your worship service will be no more honorable to New Testament teaching than mass conducted by the Pope.
I am encouraged by your comments and CB's comments, and Members's. We must stand up to the evil ones that cannot discern the truth. "Solders of Christ must Arise" and battle those that would try to quench the work of the Spirit. The Sirit is doing wonderful things in many places.
The Narrow door is faith in the finished atonement through Jesus on the cross.
It is His righteousness that saves.
The Wide Way is any path other than through HIS finished work on the cross.
Let us not confuse this with anything else.
There is a reason for the hymn. "My hope is built on nothing less than Jesus blood and righteousness."
" I dare not trust the sweetest frame but wholy lean on Jesus name".
So, here is what we do. We fire the SECT of HYPOCRITES who were "rhetoricians, sOPHISts (snakes in Revelation), singers and musicians." After all, in the Greek world their JOB DESCRIPTION was to function as sorcerers or soothsayers or "technes" (Exegetes, hermeneuts) and you just know what is gonna happen to those who MOCKED AT THE FOOT OF THE OLD RUGGED CROSS trying to MINIMIZE Jesus Christ and the CROSS.
And, hay, the Greek world also knew them as PARASITES. The parasites were like the Warrior musicians assigned by the KING and COMMANDERS to serve (hard bondage) the priest at the ALTAR and SLAUGHTER PEN where the TYPES of Jesus were sacrificed. Jesus took pains to inspire the text which shows the residual MINSTRELS were cast on the Dung Heap where the CARCASES of the TYPES of Jesus were cast. In the Greek temples they were know as PARASITES because they got a SHARE OF THE FOOD for ministering to the priests. Know what? The place of the SKULL was probably foul smelling from blood and guts.
Don't cry, blasphemy. Every Bible reader knows that the temple was LIKE THE NATIONS because they demanded a KING LIKE THE NATIONS and God knew that it was so that they could WORSHIP LIKE THE NATION and be destroyed.
So, if we are gonna gather at the CROSS then we need to tear down the building or sell it for a honkey tonk because Paul said that the ONLY place we would find Jesus was OUTSIDE THE CAMP which meant OUTSIDE THE TEMPLE. Neither God nor the Jewish congregation ever ENTERED INTO THE TEMPLE.
We have already fired the staff. Get rid of the elders because their authority is in a TIGHT LITTLE CIRCLE: "To teach that which has been taught and rebuke those who oppose it."
Now, we are left with only the CROSS but where oh where is that JESUS you are talking about? Didn't HE say that he would be in the midst of TWO OR THREE? Uh. Does not mean TWO OR THREE THOUSAND? Don't know but 2 or three or a good class size of about 20 is a good place to start. But, where is Jesus?? Well, Jesus said MY WORDS are SPIRIT and LIFE and Paul limited the SINGING and melody to the heart. Huh? How else can JESUS teach us the Spirit Mind of Christ when we are in the singy clappy mood.
Now to WORSHIP. Did you know that the worship word Paul defined means to fall on your face like a dog licking the masters boots. Just try to do that hold hold your angelic harps!
However, Jesus defined worship as IN THE SPIRIT which is the PLACE of the human mind and not INSPIRITED OR ENRAPTURED. And, as a matter of GREAT GRACE we don't have to do the falling exercises any more. Paul's UNIQUE worship word was to GIVE HEED to Christ by GIVING HEED TO HIS Words. Now, we can obey Paul to Timothy and "Give attendance to the public READING of the Word." Then, like Jesus, we can explain the doctrinal content and admonish one another. Men like Luther, Calvin and the Campbells defined CHURCH as "the school of the Bible" or of Christ.
Now the CROSS is gonna be hard to find so what do we do? Well, we pick up our only VERY LIGHT CROSS and follow Jesus so that we don't price fix or put the thumb on the meat scales or STEAL the church houses of widows. Or as the Greeks knew: don't pay for parasites because they CONTRIBUTE NOTHING but the destruction of faith and morality and SPIRITUAL religion.
EVERYONE defined as righteous under the LAW were personally right toward God and practiced justice to their fellow man.
Know what? That 30,000 or 40,000 bucks stolen form the hard working "worshipers" can then be put into the hands of Jesus Christ by using it to give Him a cup of cold water of the Word--without FURTHER EXPOUNDING which is PRIVATELY INTERPRETING the Words of Christ which Peter outlawed and which one cannot do--for a price--without spitting in the face of Jesus. Furthermore, the FREE BY GRACE believers will not have to sweat all week knowing that they will never be able to educate their children! And that might make them WORSE THAN INFIDELS. And guess who BURNS for it.
If YOU ever meet Jesus and you are a singy clappy type YOU are not going to notice. SHE will be an old widow who has always gone to 4th and suddenly is like one who finds her HOUSE stolen and friends chased away by the MOST WICKED of people.
Oh Well, she probably deserves it. She was BLIND enough to give up her children's heritage when the ELDERS claimed that YOU MUST GIVE IT TO THE LOUURRDEee. One of the LESSONS learned the hard way is that many of you have learned that only thieves try to SHAME you into TITHING. And only very ignorant men extort (in Paul's words) by what they have INVENTED as the "Law of Giving." Isn't that legalism? Didn't Jesus Himself pay the TEMPLE tax. Did He ever ask for a CONTRIBUTION? No because there is NOTHING CHRISTIAN which demands a FEE or a TAX but the help of the PROSPEROUS if they are DESTITUTE. If you drop "something in the pot, boy" YOU fail to grasp the meaning of the CROSS.
So. You can give all of your FORTUNE to the Lord but if you give it to the elders for buildings and grounds I can almost guarantee that in the most conservative church you will not know the AGENDA until they get all of your money.
YOU DON'T OWE THE INSTITUTION ONE RED PENNY. So, Come out of LEGALISM into GRACE as the only way to STARVE OUT the Parasites.
Looking forward to JUST JESUS AND ME at the foot of the old Poplar tree.
Remember now, "JUST JESUS" doesn't allow you to slip in the soothsayers and parasites. And for goodness sake if YOU are a PARASITE pretending to be a SORCERER with the power to BRING THE WORSHIPERS INTO THE PRESENCE OF GOD, I don't believe it to be judging to say that Jesus is going to treat you just like a TICK or other blood sucker.
I cant find anywhere in the Bible where the wide way is associated with the way to God and eternal life.
Matt. 7:13-14 discuss both and "narrow is the way which leadeth unto life". Interesting is that vs. 15 discusses false prophets in sheeps clothing.
I think you need to rethink your wide and narrow theory.
It was announced last Sunday that Ken Young, of Hallal, is coming to be worship leader at Fourth Avenue Church of Christ on Oct. 1. While not an unexpected announcement, it is of concern to many of us for several reasons; first, reportedly, he will be paid over $90,000. second, we are aware that he will gradually (and subtly) bring about changes in the services that many of us fear. We need a good, faith-based,experienced pulpit minister to bring in the unchurched. Many members are leaving to go with other nearby congregations; the weekly collections have been $4000 or more under budget recently. Please pray for our church and respond with any helpful suggestions of actions we can take or people we can confer with.
You, too, have been "DYE STAMPED" or MARKED for the deliberate sowing of discord. We noted that the SURVEYS are not surveys but they are ARROGANT lying statements that "we have INFILTRATED and we are going to DIVERT you into the Luciferian Worship." And YOU are gonna pay LUCIFER (Lucyfer) because WE GOT THE POWER and YOU gonna obey OUR LAW OF GIVING. Wots more, You gonna TITHE or you gonna be EXCLUDED from the inner circle which corresponds to the TEMPLE TOWER of the Towers of Babylon. You PLAY and SING your way up the tower, you turn in your collection at the top and we gonna let you see the gods ascending and descending. And our flute girls or prostitutes are the NEW STYLE WORSHIP.
She/he was the harp playing PROSTITUTE and the serpent of NACHASH or musical enchanter in the garden of Eden. She is CIRCE of "church" opposed to the synagogue of Christ. She plays music and administers drugs or "magical encantantments" or enchantments.
SHE resides in "rhetoricians, Sophists, singers, musicians, buffoons (preacher jokes) and in the Greek world they were the craftsmen or TECHNES who, along with the musicians (muses) and instrumentalists worked as sorcerers or soothsayers (See Rev 18). These ALL belonged to the SECT of the Hypocrites which included actors and flute- girls who were prostitutes. They are also defined by similar words meaning PARASITES.
It was predictable that Ken would recruit a MASTER MUSICIAN to make the church effeminate and theatrical.
HERE'S THE ADVICE OF JESUS WHO PAID THE PRICE AND PAUL WHO OUTLAWED ALL OF THESE PARASITES. YOU are the BODY and YOU select ONLY the elders as the ONLY pastor teachers along with the Deacons. The elders are LEADERS only when they "teach that which has been taught and refute those who oppose it." The early BISHOPS were the ones who went out and established churches with Paule defining WAGE SEEKERS as robbers. The MINISTERS work hard to SUPPORT THE WEAK and not to have the weak support them.
You guys share the blame because you LAID UP YOUR TREASURES in houses and retirement plans for the STAFF INFECTION. You thereby gave permission for a professional PILE ON by those who do nothing but SPREAD AN EVIL VIRUS.
HERE IS HOW YOU VOTE AND YOU MUST SPREAD THE WORD:
The Co-Witness of Other Versions:
NIV: On the first day of every week, each one of you should set aside a sum of money in keeping with his income, saving it up, so that when I come no collections will have to be made. 1 Corinthians 16:2NIV
NAS: On the first day of every week let each one of you put aside and save, as he may prosper, that no collections be made when I come. 1 Corinthians 16:2NAS
NKJV: On the first day of the week let each one of you lay something aside, storing up as he may prosper, that there be no collections when I come. 1 Corinthians16:2
This says: You put aside, You Save. In practice only those who PROSPERED were asked to give to the DESTITUTE. The "proportional giving" is a SCAM.
RSV: On the first day of every week, each of you is to put something aside and store it up, as he may prosper, so that contributions need not be made when I come. 1 Corinthians 16:2
LIV: On every Lord's Day each of you should put aside something from what you have earned during the week, and use it for this offering. The amount depends on how much the Lord has helped you earn. Don't wait until I get there and then try to collect it all at once. 1 Corinthians 16:2
Modern Speech: On the first day of every week let each of you put on one side and store up at his home whatever gain has been granted him; so that whenever I come, there may be no collections going on. (The Modern Speech New Testament, Richard Francis Weymouth).
Authentic Version: The day after the Sabbath let each of you put by savings as he has prospered, so that collections do not have to be made when I come. (The Authentic Version, Hugh J. Schonfield).
NEV: Every Sunday each of you is to put aside and keep by him a sum in proportion to his gains, so that there may be no collecting when I come. (New English Bible New Testament).
Plain English: On the first day of the week let each of you put aside and save something from his earnings; so that the money has not all to be collected when I come. (The New Testament in Plain English, Charles Kingsley Williams).
Neander: But Paul, if we examine his language closely, says no more than this: that every one should lay by in his own house on the first day of the week, whatever he was able to save.
.....This certainly might mean, that every one should bring with him the sum he had saved to the meeting of the church, that thus the individual contributions might be collected together, and be ready for Paul as soon as he came.
.....But this would be making a gratuitous supposition, not at all required by the connexion of the passage.
.....We may fairly understand the whole passage to mean, that every one on the first day of the week should lay aside what he could spare, so that when Paul came, every one might be prepared with the total of the sum laid by, and then by pulling the sums together, the collection of the whole church would be at once made." Dr. Augustus Neander, in his "History of the Training and Planting of the Christian Church,"
The FIRST DAY OF THE WEEK was the FIRST DAY OF WORK for most. Out of his FIRST PAY DAY he should store up a sum.
Paul did not hint that they lay by in store on the SECOND DAY of the week. Thus, what he gave was from his first pay check. 10% of his whole weeks pay would be outrageous extortion.
I BELIEVE THAT THE DIRECT COMMAND IS THAT YOU QUIT VIOLATING THE GRACE OF JESUS AND THE COMMANDS OF PAUL AND THE TESTIMONY OF MOST VERSIONS.
JUST SAY NOT. Your hard earned money is being BLEED off from you. The LUCIFER PRINCIPLE meant that the harp- playing prostitute used musical seduction to STEAL the property BACK from you after you had BOUGHT the WHORE'S cedar.
See a historical account of how it is done:
http://www.piney.com/DocuWenAmun.html
Just quit beating yourself in the head: these legalists will wax worse and worse until their goal is reached of being part of the JESUS TEAM who will reward their friends and kill their enemies (true goal).
I want you to e-mail me with your PLEDGE that you will not give ONE MORE PENNY to these scams and lay it by yourself to help those in need and support your family. Why should a WORSHIP LEADER bleed of $90 thousand a year when you probably have dozens of good song leaders. They are heading deeply into PAGAN RELIGON and it is prophesied.
You should also report the older and shrinking attendance numbers and the contribution. I would also hold my hand ove my mouth when the TEACHING process is turned into a perverted form of erotic praise singing as one of the oldest, pagan superstitions.
REJOICE AND BE GLAD: IT IS PROPHESIED: IT IS IN THE BOOK. AND YOU HAVE LIVED TO SEE IT AND FIND OUT WHAT YOU WOULD HAVE DONE WHEN THEY WERE MOCKING JESUS.
If this Ken Young guy has already been hired it sounds to me like pretty strong commitments have already been made. As things are, how do you see things playing out 6-12 months from now? If there was an impact made to alter the present course, where would you see things in the same time frame?
I'm certainly no expert, but I have been through this twice in seven years, and have been praying for fourth for some time now.
Please, answer me via email. I'll be more than happy to share what I've learned and any resources that I may have.
As personified in the king of Tyre who was a "queen" Lucifer came into the garden with wind, string and percussion instruments. He was more "she" and wanted to be remembered as a male. But he/she in Tyre is defined a the singing and harp-playing PROSTITUTE. All music in a religious sense was of prostitutes or Sodomites.
No, the LEVITICAL sounders (not musicians) never got past the type of the sacrifice of Christ and the washing in the Laver. They could never get into the Holy Place as a TYPE of the body or church of Christ which COULD NOT BE contaminated by singers or musicians. They were worthy of death if they entered.
-- "With the wine-drinking (which is the literal meaning of the Hebrew for feasting), went music and dancing." (Heaton, E. W., Everyday Life in Old Testament times, Scribners, p. 93)
---- "Worship was form more than substance; consequently, conduct in the marketplace was totally unaffected by worship in the holy place. Amos spoke from the conviction that social justice is an integral part of the Mosaic covenant, which regulates relations not only between God and people, but also among people." (King, p. 44).
---- "In pagan traditions, musical instruments are invented by gods or demi-gods, such as titans. In the Bible, credit is assigned to antediluvian patriarchs, for example, the descendants of Cain in Genesis 4:21. There is no other biblical tradition about the invention of musical instruments." (Freedman, David Noel, Bible Review, Summer 1985, p. 51).
When Jubal HANDLED instruments the word means WITHOUT AUTHORITY.
In the Greek world "rhetoricians, sOPHISts, singers and musicians were PARASITES.
We are suppose to be soldiers of Christ and put our armour on. Stand up for the truth and not ALLOW this to happen. Jesus condemned DIVISION in Matt. 12:25. Paul condemned DIVISION in 1 Cor. 1:10. We are to reject one if cause DIVISION in Romans 16:17-18. The elder(s) that is not fighting for the truth will have to answer for his role in leading the flock before GOD our FATHER. We should use our sword (the Bible) to fight against satan. We just have to strong and make a stand against such that is happening in your church. They will fall once they see you have the power to overcome them that is evil the sight of GOD. It is probably too late now to do any fighting. You just need to pray without ceasing about this. Talk to the other elders that have been brainwashed or dominated and see if something can be done with the concerning members standing behind him or them. I am praying for more strenght in the church all over the world. My mom and dad before they passed away very much feared what would happen to the church. We sure need all the prayers going up to HIM. The DEVIL is determined to take over alot of our churches and we can't let that happen. You can go to a good website www.gbntv.org that does teach the truth and they have a Q & A period daily that you can call in and get an answer. They are on the web 24/7 and have program for all ages. These are very sound men teaching the truth. If you have DISH TV they have a program on channels 9407 & 9396 at 12pm EST intitled "GOOD NEWS TODAY" and if you have DIRECT TV they as well have channel 323 on a 8am EST.
IN HIM
I want the people at Fourth Ave to know that there are hundreds if not thousands of faithful Christians praying for their church family. Praise the Lord that people have the courage to follow God and not tradition. The men and women who fought for the restoration of NT Christianity would be very proud! They would also be very disappointed with this website and the people who are trying to maintain traditions over the advancement of the gospel into the lives of hurting and lost souls.
I just came in from a Bible study with one such person. Please pray that he will come to know Jesus. Someone sent me a note about this website and so I came to it to see if what I heard was true. Sadly, it is. Please, drop your stones and leave this group of poor imperfect churches alone!
It is the realization that we are imperfect and in need of divine direction that will bring blessings. It is that realization, I'm convinced, that is driving the work at Fourth Ave., and it is that realization that will shut down this website and replace your thrones with towels!
God forgive us all!!
I'm not trying to sound incredibly harsh, but look in the mirror and see if you have a throne or a towel! I find it amazing that those who you label as “traditionalists” in an effort to be flexible, allowed "The men and women who fought for the restoration of NT Christianity would be very proud!" in the door. They were the ones who allowed every change that was desired by the crowd that would be "proud" until now. Now that they take a stand, and say, “Stop, or I won’t recognize the church I go to anymore.” you label them inflexible! Then the amazing fact is that the only ones who are inflexible are the "proud". As changes were questioned, the "proud" were the ones that not only did not bend for their brother in Christ, but in turn labeled them as a traditionalist, legalist or Pharisee! These traditionalists, legalists, or Pharisees were the ones willing to bend! How quickly that is forgotten! How does bending earn them the label that they have received?
So, if I have everything straight those who bent now must submit to the way things "must" be, or go somewhere else because their conscience will no longer allow them to worship at the congregation they have attended for so long. Who is inflexible here? If it were not for the people who bent and their families there would be no church for the "proud" to tear apart. That is the way it happened at Church #1, Church #2, and another church where 2 aunts and uncles as well as my grandparents attend, so yep I do have it straight.
I’ll be praying. I have been for some time now for all churches that have gone through this spiritual cancer. I doubt the “proud” can be very proud of the hundreds if not thousands who have given up the pursuit of Christ because of those who mandate change by forcefully taking a mile when given an inch, and then call themselves “proud”.
Lance, my guess by your tone you are with the “proud” group. Just know the “proud” have displaced more than 100 members of three churches that are not even mentioned on this forum by the same tactics that are described on this site. (those are the ones I know of there are probably more) Many of whom I have no idea if they attend anywhere any longer. All because who is not flexible? Read what the Bible has to say about pride. Maybe, "The men and women who fought for the restoration of NT Christianity would be very proud!” wouldn’t be as proud any more, and maybe it would help with flexibility where it is needed.
This Ken Young guy is really blowing me away. I really think that he thinks he is Wayne Newton. Needless to say I'm attending church elsewhere!! If I want to go to a concert I'll go to the Gaylord Entertainment Center.
I think "blowing you away" is a freudian slip: that is the unique meaning of charismatic music standing in what they believe to be the holy place.
The worship word THRESKIA is well known to speak of religion in the modern "church sense." All of its gods and priests were gender disturbed. Carol Wimber calls that having a sexual-like climactic experience with God--just before the last act of giving of means.
I watched Ken slither around the Asherah poles at a Jubilee (on my computer). To their credit the women kept their hands down and did not dance around.
The perverted sexuality theme is 100% throughout the literature. I am beginning to assemble some of it at this link. I don't know why people will extort money and lie in order to procure some of that.
The words surrounding charismatic links directly to pederasty: the young boys always recruited for the priests. This kind of worship cannot be in the open now (yet) but the PATTERNISM which is being portrayed as WORSHIP sends a message whether intended or not: if we ACT in a certain way we will, as in all drama and according to Plato experience GENDER BLEED.
The worship word approved by Paul was to assemble (a synagogue type word) and give heed to the Words of Christ: that which is written in Romans 15, the Spirit or Word in Ephesians 5 and the Word of Christ in Colossians 3.
Paul, using Jesus as a model, said that we should not PLEASURE one another but using ONE MIND and ONE MOUTH glorify God by speaking "that which is written." This theme is repeated many times without using the word "singing" because both sing and melody are in the heart because melody is a warfare word connected to SHOOTING arrows into you to kill you. The only "musical" connections came when people spoke of shooting out hymns.
"Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs,
that ye stand fast in one spirit,
with one mind
striving together for the faith of the gospel; Phil 1:27
Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ,
that ye all SPEAK the same thing, [Paul used the word SPEAK of the so-called singing passages]
and that there be no divisions among you;
but that ye be perfectly joined together
in the same MIND and in the same judgment. 1Co.1:10
Most left-brained (spiritual male and female) will flee from such charismatic performance because God is pouring out his wrath in MARKING them. Wrath translates to "turning them into buffons." Glad you are not confused.
I have been reading the posts on this website out of curiousity and have been surprised at the tone in which all of these posts are written. I was very relieved to read something that was written from a more understanding perspective. I do agree that writing things in a forum such as this is a very ineffective medium to any kind of understanding of each other as tone of voice is often lost in written word. I think that if Jesus were physically here today he would be discussing these issues with an attitude of love and desire for agreement rather than division. He would be approaching his brothers and sisters in Christ face to face.
I attended 4th Ave. today in beautiful Franklin TN. You all are blessed to live in such a cool town. The service and the message (from Joe Beam) were wonderful, and afterward Albert Lemmons himself took me and my friends out for lunch. What a man. I agree with Vanessa that face to face in the love of Christ is the best way for us to communicate; I just wonder something about those who read these posts. Do you realize that Christ lives within us (Christians)? That our human spirit dies and the Spirit of Christ is resurrected within our hearts? I'm NOT a technical person; God created me with a rather abstract mind and a somewhat poetic form of expression, so that is the best and simplest way I can explain it at 2:30 AM. Baptism is so symbolic of death and resurrection it's surreal. Amazing. God chose this physical act to mark the real thing happening spiritually. Music. This physical thing is a gift from God, and it is the physical manifestation of spiritual exhileration. Have you ever been engulfed in beautiful music? What happens? Laughing, crying, falling down. These things happen when our heart is broken by the grace of God. Yes, God works through music. He invented it. It's one of the greatest gifts we have. Of course many great things can be abused (music, sex, intelligence etc.) but they are wonderful when Jesus is in control. Let Him have your heart everyday. Ask the Holy Spirit to help you read God's Word. Today at 4th Ave I felt peace, love, and revolution, which are to my understanding 3 key ingredients to the growth of God's Kingdom.
I love you all because Christ loves me. May God bless you with abundant life and spiritual gifts.
I attended 4th Ave. today in beautiful Franklin TN. You all are blessed to live in such a cool town. The service and the message (from Joe Beam) were wonderful, and afterward Albert Lemmons himself took me and my friends out for lunch. What a man. I agree with Vanessa that face to face in the love of Christ is the best way for us to communicate; I just wonder something about those who read these posts.
Do you realize that Christ lives within us (Christians)? That ourhuman spirit dies and the Spirit of Christ is resurrected within our hearts?
I'll bet that Franklin was a beautiful city BEFORE the people got INFILTRATED and DIVERTED.
No, dear, our BODY dies so we can worship in the human spirit which is the human mind. You are speaking of the MADNESS induced primarily in females. It meant "standing outside your self." Sure, even the old whirling dervishes like David thought that he was spiritual when he STRIPPED and "praised" meaning "going vile with the camp following girls."
The Jews and musical pagans made animal sacrifices. These sacrifices were imposed on Israel when they rose up to PLAY in the musical worship of the Egyptian triad. The service of the noise makers (not musicians) was SERVICE meaning "hard bondage" as they mocked thousands of types of Lord Jesus Christ. They would also MOCK Jesus musically on the way to the cross.
The Samaritan woman grasped that when Messiah comes He will TELL us all things. Joe Beam claims for his book what God in Christ claimes for his. Thus, the Shelly core gospel claims that the old Bible has become obsolete and these guys are getting a NEW SUPPLY to be published in religious TRAFFICK.
Jesus said that God is worshipped ONLY in the new PLACE of the human spirit as it is gives heed to the TRUTH of the Word. Contrary to the new paganism, this is worship in the sense of Enthus O mania or the madness of those singing and speaking out of their OWN spirits in Corinth.
As believers we do not need the Joe Beam preachers: there is no GIFT or office for them to fill: they are outlawed by Jesus Christ, by Paul and by most of church history. They have imposed themselves on us because they claim some spiritual superiority to speak for a wage: that defines a Pharisee.
You CANNOT be involved in "spiritual exhilaration" in the FLESH: those goose bumps are created by DRUG PUSHERS injecting you with a powerful drug through suggestions of spiritual superiority, by music and by rhetoric or sophistry. The rhetorician is, in the Greek world, a sorcerer. The sOPHISts includes the name of the serpent: Ophis. He was an enchanter which makes YOU focus on the man and not on the scriptural message: tell me what you learned about the Word of Christ Who is the ONLY teacher. In heaven and in the garden of Eden he is more SHE as the Nachash. She was lucifer and not a snake. She/he was a Musical Enchanter. In he Greek world they are all called Parasites or harpISTS.
Paul and Peter insisted that our worship be in the place of the human SPIRIT. Outside performers are outlawed: if we don't shut down the body senses this is how false teachers (serpents) slip in to insist that you need a performing preacher or "worship" minister to replace Jesus to 'bring you into the presence of God.' They can get you high on music and inject the scorpion sting into you.
The Apostles made it a LAW: if you let a human, charismatic figure to "cut and paste" you repudiate God in Christ, His teaching of the Apostles, guiding them into all truth and you INVITE false teachers who can't resist the temptation to ride on the backs of widows and poor working people.
How did you do it compared to what Paul said?
I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. Rom 12:1
A sacrifice is;
Thusia (g2378) thoo-see'-ah; from 2380; sacrifice (the act of the victim, lit. or fig.): - sacrifice.
Thuo (g2380) thoo'-o; a pri
m. verb; prop. to rush (breathe hard, blow, smoke), i.e. (by impl.) to sacrifice (prop. by fire, but gen.); by extens. to immolate (slaughter for any purpose): - kill, (do) sacrifice, slay.
If you kill off the body with its senses then and ONLY then can you worship in YOUR MIND. The misleaders know that what they are pushing is not, CANNOT be the worship of the Bible: it is straight out of disturbed paganism and I can prove it.
The Spirit is to God what our spirit is to us. The Holy Spirit is the Mind of Christ (2 Cor 2). The human spirit is the mind is the heart is the inner most being.
Logikos (h3050) log-ik-os'; from 3056; rational ("logical"): - reasonable, OF THE WORD
The Logos is the Written Word of the Living Word: Jesus said "My words are spirit and they are life." You didn't listen to the Words of Christ and therefore you violated a law imposed by legalists on you so that you pay them for what boils down to sexual stimulation. That's a fact.
You did not hear the WORD: Paul said that elders are the only vocational pastor-teachers of the flock. He feeds them with the word. He does not write, sing or preach something different without being anti-christian.
If you had been in spiritual worship (of the Word in the mind) you would not believe the musical false teachers. Remembering that musical instruments were idols and the homes of the gods:
Woe unto him that saith to the wood, Awake; to the dumb stone, Arise, it shall teach Behold, it is laid over with gold and silver, and there is no breath at all in the midst of it. Hab 2:19
But the Lord is in his holy temple: let all the earth keep silence before him. Hab 2:20
I submit that you were engaged in idolatry since you did not tell us the CONTENT but only of the performance and what they did to impress ME.
Paul warned the Corinthians:
Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play. 1Co.10:7
But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils. 1Co.10:20
Play is musical idolatry and always has a sexual or homosexual component. Remember that when people get focused as Faith centered, or Jesus centered or Grace centered they have tumbled into idolatry. Grace or Chara speaks of of a self-centered and "male partner centered." Check it out: there is no exception and that is why God's grace simply means his good pleasure.
I'm NOT a technical person; God created me with a rather abstract mind and a somewhat poetic form of expression, so that is the best and simplest way I can explain it at 2:30 AM. Baptism is so symbolic of death and resurrection it's surreal. Amazing. God chose this physical act to mark the real thing happening spiritually.
The people at Grace Centered absolutely repudiate baptism as God's MEANS for sprinkling or washing our spirit or mind to make it into A holy spirit or to give us a good conscience so that we, like Joe Beam etal, do not need a human teacher. If we are ATTRACTED to one we cannot give heed to Jesus at the same time.
Music. This physical thing is a gift from God, and it is the physical manifestation of spiritual exhileration.
Sorry about that but the Bible says that Lucifer had string, wind and percussion instruments when she/he landed in the garden of Eden. She had seduced the angels into bleeding off worship for him/her self. If you SEE or HEAR someone standing in the claimed holy place know that you are in the presence of Lucifer whose name is also ZOE. The king/queen of Tyre was called the "singing and harp playing prostitute." Why? Why, because she used music to help buy and sell even the souls of men. She/here was in the garden as a Musical Enchanter.
The king/queen of Babylon went into sheol as a type of hell with his/her harps and harpists. The harps have been found. As the end time harlot worship leader her singers, instrumentalists and craftsmen (Techne or house builders) will go back into Sheol with her to be burned to a crisp.
Have you ever been engulfed in beautiful music? What happens? Laughing, crying, falling down.
Sorry but you are defining being pushed into mental illness. Paul warned that "fools love to be fooled" and traffickers have to know how to fool you. The purpose driven people afflicting the body of Christ are postmodern. That means that they have to INFILTRATE and push you into schizophrenia to force you to gag on your old traditionalism which they always lie about. Charis or Grace is not a "brown eyed Greek" selling her body: Grace is the POWER of God to fulfill His will.
Engulfed: rendered powerless especially by an excessive amount or profusion of something to catch, lay hold of, seize. to catch one by the foot, hupnosis, sleep of death. This word is used of wine! : completely enclosed or swallowed up. The gulf is the chasma above hell.
What you are defining Paul calls madness or insanity. The expression "don't get drunk with wine" also means to be fluted or piped down into passion and pride. You CANNOT be in that condition without someone deliberately pushing you over the edge to demonstrate THEIR power over you. That is not good for your mental health or spiritual health.
The Play or musical, perverted "woship" PLAY at Mount Sinai mens to: laugh at, make fun or sport of, play amorously, Erôta sang a hymn in praise of Eros. make fun with a person, occasion of laughter, food for laughter, a dimple in the hinder parts.
Engulfed: rendered powerless especially by an excessive amount or profusion of something to catch, lay hold of, seize. to catch one by the foot, hupnosis, sleep of death. This word is used of wine! : completely enclosed or swallowed up. The gulf is the chasma above hell.
These things happen when our heart is broken by the grace of God. Yes, God works through music. He invented it. It's one of the greatest gifts we have.
Grace is the divine influence on the heart: My God does not BREAK hearts with the GRACE IDOLATRY. Grace allows us to be conformed to the image of God's Son or his own visible manifestation. God in Christ repudiated "music" in many of his acted parables. The clergy could not understand because He spoke in parables.
If the GRACE type worship is causing you to collapse in a heap then it is the CHARMA or Charismatic form of worship which works below the surface on your sexual feelings or frustrations. In fact, history shows that those who are best at being priests or prophets are emotionally and or sexually abnormal. Don't let them get THEIR highs by manipulating you into what history knows as a total, perverted collaps back into the "new worship" which always reverts to the archaic when theyr walls of confidence collapse. They man need serious help.
In the Bible there is no exception to the rule: music was used by Satan to cause people to tell God to "get lost." There is no example of the people's congregation ever singing with instrumental accompaniment as worship to God. The MUSIC word does not really exist except by way of attaching it to Satan, prostitutes or the Levitical warrior musicians who made NOISE and not music.
Well, I supposed some unlawful preacher person told you that big big whopper. ALL of the evidence including the Bible shows that music was used by Satan even in heaven. When he/she and the angels were cast out they brought instruments with them. Rembember that using the same idea, Jesus saw the musical minstrels (ministers) and CAST them out in a violent way as one ejects dung. The officials in Athens who controlled the cemetary and the dung heap also controlled the flute-girls and regulated their prices.
"In pagan traditions, musical instruments are invented by gods or demi-gods, such as titans. In the Bible, credit is assigned to antediluvian patriarchs, for example, the descendants of Cain in Genesis 4:21. There is no other biblical tradition about the invention of musical instruments." (Freedman, David Noel, Bible Review, Summer 1985, p. 51).
Of course many great things can be abused (music, sex, intelligence etc.) but they are wonderful when Jesus is in control. Let Him have your heart everyday. Ask the Holy Spirit to help you read God's Word. Today at 4th Ave I felt peace, love, and revolution, which are to my understanding 3 key ingredients to the growth of God's Kingdom.
The Holy Spirit has a name: Jesus of Nazareth. God's Spirit is to God what our spirit is to us. The Holy Spirit is the MIND of Christ. Paul OUTLAWED both external singing and external melody. Singing in the aodeing sens means to "lift you up, to get you excited in order to CARRY YOU AWAY." This is why Paul said, "sing in the spirit" because that is the only place God will be seeking you.
External melody is outlawed because it is NOT a musical word. It is exclusively a warfare word meaning to "grind the enemy into a fine powder." Jesus used a melody-like SIGN when he ground up the SOP and gave it to Judas. Melody is an Apollo, Abaddon or Apollyon word: his arrows were not always lethal. Worry about promoters of "musical worship teams" making melody or shooting arrows at you.
You don't have to be an ACU "prophet, chaneller or facilitator" to infiltrate churches and divert them into "a theater for holy entertainment" to be able to read Paul in three places:
Rom 15: Don't PLEASURE yourself meanting to GET EXITED and also a charma or GRACE word meaning sexual or perverted pleasure. Then with one MIND and one VOICE speak "that which is written" as the ONLY way to glorify God.
Ephesians 5. "Don't get drunk with wine" which in their perverted paganism meant to get "fluted dow or piped down" into passion and pride: something like ENGULFED The SPEAK (not sing) the inspired metrical material. No. Twila Paris is not inspired.
Colossians 3 using the WORD of Christ (that which is written) TEACH and ADMONISH with the inspired text. In all cases the MELODY in an external sense is OUTLAWED. Singing with GRACE in the heart is the "divine influence on the heart."
No, silly. The key was the key to KNOWLEDGE. Jesus built a synagogue and not a church or worship center. Synagogue is where Jesus TEACHES us through the Word. Jesus said I don't bring PEACE but a sword. The only way to REST with Jesus is to come from under the clergy as BURDEN LADERS. What is that burden? It is "spiritual anxiety created by religious rituals."
Love is keeping God's commandments. Love is for a WIDOW RIDING clergy to go preach the gospl as vocational ministers. When you get laughing, fall down drunk on "passion and pride" there is no love. Someone has said that before people can enslave you they must first hate you. Remember also that these new churches are returning to Discipling and Shepherding which means that they will pour love all over your head unless you CROSS them. With the best of intentions I miss attributed a quote to Joe Beam and I felt psychologically and physically threatened. They all scratch easy
I love you all because Christ loves me. May God bless you with abundant life and spiritual gifts.
We love you too but the old LOUVVVEEE word will not change one jot or tittle of the Word of God which reveals the Spirit or Mind of Christ. If they DO to you other than to teach the Word as it HAS BEEN TAUGHT and take the Lord's Supper as a TEACHING activity then FLEE because Babylon has landed. There is no one of your friends who can defend the MUSIC issue. They know that it is anti Biblical and deliberately sows discord but the BIBLE and the Christ of the Bible went obsolete when they banded together to destroy the love, joy and peace of the entire brotherhood. Someday they will have to answer: not even Judas knew his mission but the Judas bag was for "carrying the mouthpieces of wind instruments." This speaks of music as gibberish tongues and OF THE WORLD ruled over Satan as the Kosmokrator.
You confessed what they are trying to do: taking away our mind or spirit so they can put you through BODY WORSHIP. God says, "subdue the FLESH so that you can THINK based on the Word of God and not some manipulator."
We need to talk about the LAUGHTER: when you have reached the end of the line and are in a terminal state God sends you strong delusions in strong deluders. The MARK of His wrath is an ORGE: He sends you a buffoon or jester to mock God and make fools of his captives.
Christianity is a PERSONAL discipline and not a pagan religion: turn away from the jesters and return to being a DISCIPLE of Christ. Court jester are petty. Look at the connection:
psalmôid-ia , singing to the harp
Word with similar definition
barbit-ôidos , on, singing to the barbiton,
kômôido-loicheô , play the parasite
Similar meaning
kômôidoloicheô 1 [leichô] to play the parasite and buffoon,
Lur-ôideô , play the lyre,
pithêk-izô , play the ape, of flatterers,: barbarous form epitêkizi or epitêkize
hupopi thêkizô , play the ape a little, hupo ti mikron epithêkisa Ar.V. 1290; cf. pithêkizô.
mikros
I. small, little, in point of Size, Hom., etc.; also in point of Quantity, Hes., Ar., etc.
2. in Amount or Importance, little, petty, trivial, slight, Theogn., Soph., etc.; sm. tithêsi me makes me of small account.
Now, I didn't tell a single Joke: if I had I would have told you that I think that your are a fool and according to Paul, "fools love to be fooled." When people joke in the presence of God they are in more trouble than they can get out of. Why is that?
Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear: Heb 12:28 For our God is a consuming fire. Heb 12:29
And being a Christian I will not accept your tithes and offerings extorted with the legalistic LAW OF GIVING.
Chris, I have just found this site and am really not quite sure how to take it. However, I am concerned at what I have seen at many congregations. In fact, I have an incident that happened at 4th Avenue that really bothered me and maybe you can help me understand it. My son and I were visiting there one Sunday morning and the incident occurred during the Lord's Supper. The gentleman who was leading the congregation for the Lord's Supper talked about how we shouldn't be concentrating during this time on the "bad stuff" that happened to Jesus (his death on the cross), but instead should concentrate on His "good times". In fact, as he put it "Jesus LOVED to party!!!!". I (and even my son) was shocked to have this solemn time so trivialized. The Bible clearly states that the Lord's Supper is specifically to remember Christ's sacrifice for us. And, no where in the Bible do I get the idea that Jesus was out to "have a good time". Anyway, after returning home I sent a letter to the elders of the congregation concerning this incident. What was the response? None at all....
This is enough to me to send up red flags. However, in addition at this service there was mention of the congregation purchasing a building with a recording studio. The cost to the congregation was going to be minimized because they would be allowing "Christian bands" to produce their records there. I did not know the New Testament church was in the recording busines.
Why did the elders not respond to me? I promise that my letter was very respectfully written.
You will note that Joe Beam preached and the lady seems to have been thrown into a charismatic (sexual) fit. In 100% of the Bible and Greek sources this, in the words of Paul, MADNESS. But the Postmodern cult ADMITS that they have to toss you into schizophrenia to purge you of any old conservative ideas such as MELODY is a literal warfare word and is NEVER musical except in the sense of YANKING (never with a plectrom) a bow string or a hair of a prisoner or charismatic worshiper as they are SUPPOSED to bow in front of you: know what I mean?
One of the Grace-Centered stable has written the way the Emerging Church of Christ is going to develop. It is quite identical to Lynn Anderson's (shepherding discipling guru) and to WITCHCRAFT: uses some of the same terms.
http://www.pine.com/FPRSpectacle.html
They all lie about Jesus being a party type guy. Unfortunately the grace centered pages don't grasp that outside of God's divine favor which empowered Paul to GO out and preach with no promises but persecution and death. The Jewish clergy HOPED that if Jesus was their expected Messiah (Dionysus of the Abomination of Desolation in the temple) He would sing and dance the Grace or Charismatic dance and sing the song.
Buying a building which has not been approved by the congregation is legally stealing from the widows and hard working people. Doing anything not required to assemble as ekklesia or synagogue or school of the Bible is lying and dying to a Holy God.
Because they are a religious cult the civil authorities will not stop them. However, the word MUST be spread that the same LIE claims the TITHE (as at Madison) or the LAW OF GIVING so that you supply the money for the end time LOCUSTS to take your property and as "musical performers" STING you IF you are marked by Apollyon or Abaddon's MUSIC TEAMS (LOCUSTS in a Second Incarnation).
You must get the message out that Scripture gives elders the authority to "teach that which has been taught and refute those who oppose it." Get yourself EXORCISED real fast: The Bible and history repudiates a preside over preacher for pay and REPUDIATES their right to add their BURDEN for which Jesus died: the right to assault you with music which "creates spiritual anxiety through religious rituals."
So, the POWER TO TAX is a sin and a crime and there is NO Biblical or commonsensical right to do so. If you put something in the collection plate your are ENABLERS of people the resources define as evil and mad.
Everyone must grasp that what they are doing is EXACTLY what John prophesied about in Revelation. The Judas Bag was for carrying the mouthpieces of wind instruments exactly as prophesied in Revelation 41 where they would try to TRIUMPH (mount) Jesus with "loud instruments and making a joyful noise before the Lord." This was NOT worship but most nation's WARRIOR CHANT intending to send Panic into you to make you COLLAPSE as the "melted your heart." These people have NO connection to religion defined by Paul and it has NO connection to Christianity which is the Synagogue of Christ which "had no praise service" until the 4th type people sowed discord in 1815. These are warriors: PLEASE don't feed them because CHURCH has NO professional roles.
You should know that the OLD JESUS has been blown away by time. Rubel Shell and team are "working out their salvation" with audacity to get a NEW SET OF SCRIPTURE. You have no right to read the Word, interpret the Word or speak the word outside of the community or Commune which is coming to Franklin.
Click on concerned memblers to see the Madison madness. Click here:
http://www.network54.com/Forum/150389
Then look at this thread:
WORSHIP FOR SALE—90% OF ALL CHURCH CONFLICTS OVER MUSICAL ISSUES (2)
Many years ago a lady asked me a question and it took me three days to answer.
The question she asked was "When was instrumental music introduced into the worship?"
Well, when I found the answer I was totally bowled over. A Byzantine Emperor named Constans II
Made a gift of the early pipe organ in 666AD. Well, when I saw this many years ago I at first
Studied to find out more, but I lost heart and kept it to myself, not wanting to offend anyone.
Well,that was in the 80's sometime. I feel away, not to point of missing services or teaching
some strange doctrine, but I fell away from my first love. It has taken me many years to get to point
of addressing My Heavenly Father and knowing that He is listening to me again.
I was raised in the Pentecostal Church with all the trappings, I know what music can do for you,
nothing but separate you from God.
Remember Lev. 10:1-3, they changed the worship and GOD sent them their reward from Heaven in the form
of Fire. We are the censer and our prayers are the alms offered to GOD, do we really want to change it or should we seek to Please our Father or man.
We need to let people know that it is a possibility that caring more for the pagan ritual instrument
than we do pleasing GOD is MARKING US.
As a member of the Lord's Body for 31 years and to have fallen away to the point that I thought that ther was no hpe for me, and being able to come back in such a WAY AS TO BE ABLE TO STAND FOR TRUTH AGAIN, well, brethren, I don't want to go to hell because of my foolish pride, or my not being willing to follow the example that the early church set for us.
I suggest that anyone that wants instruments in their worship take the time to dig through the history books and see for yourself.
I have enough information for a booklet now and I am working on it.
I was looking for a blog that I read last night about the instument when I saw this blog.
What made me start looking for it again was a statement that I read, "It's time to lay the AXE
to the NON-INSTRUMENTAL BRANCH".........what a statement!! I hope this fellow reads my blog.
Ead your BIBLE EVERY DAY. Study to show yourself approved, a workman that rightly divides the WORD OF GOD!!
When Vitalian II introduced it first in 666-670, it caused quite an uproar, and one statement that I read on a Catholic site, New Advent, said "the earlier church was of much too a spirual fibre to
allow instruments into the worship." IF THE BLIND LEADS THE BLIND, BOTH SHALL FALL INTO THE PIT.
Cliff, I am the guilty party. I have published lots of proof that instrumental music has the power to do bad things to your mind. Even loud congregational singing trying to IMITATE instruments is destructive to me and I refuse to listen to it. Someone is in the business of fondling your mind to cause you to come back for a bigger drug dose. This preacher, Ray Downen began a hate non-instrumentalist by publishing Dwaine Dunning. I don't have the book so I appreciated his posting it. I began to review it and he soon quit publishing the rest of it.
This link will connect you to several papers taking the HATCHET to Dwaine Dunning's AXE.
Sorry, I get a bit wordy but I try to pile in any data which I think fits. You will have to digest it to the best of your ability.
Dunning and ALL of those now being used by churches of Christ involved in STEALING church houses of widows are simply ignorant of the Bible, the meaning of words and the history of the church. Worst of all they ignore minimal human decency.
If I can be of help let me know, Ken Sublett, Hohenwald, TN (they tried to take an AXE to the local congregation).
Now that we've moved past the emotional response, let's see what we can see.
Most congregations do not overly limit those who can speak at the Table; most do not issue a script to those that do speak. Every once in a while someone, intending good, says something that doesn't quite fit. You undoubtedly know all this; why do the elders need to tell you?
Paul, if my memory is correct, says he glories in the Cross or the death of our Saviour. While the supper does remember Jesus' death, that death is what has secured our salvation. That is a wonderful, upbeat occurrence. From time to time it is appropriate to direct our thoughts on the results of that death rather than on the death itself. To do so does not denigrate the importance or ugliness of the sacrifice, but rather sets it in perspective of God's love for us. I suspect you understand that as well; do the elders need to tell you?
So, we find that you wrote the elders asking for an explanation of how they could let someone make a mistake during the Supper.
If I was in their place, I'm not sure I'd have responded to you either. They likely have better things to do.
Now, let's see if we can figure out some other possible influences to their apparent decision:
1. They are being blasted by perhaps some of their members, others that have never been there, and folks on this website who seem to blast anyone that does anything with which they disagree.
2. They are busy shepherding their brothers and sisters through whatever changes are happening at 4th Ave.
3. Given the first two, it is not suprising that the elders do not want to put in writing anything that may be taken out of context - especially when requested by someone who doesn't attend there - whom they don't know. It is unfortunate, but in environments like those encouraged by this website, elders can become gun shy.
It is a good thing that congregations are autonomous. Otherwise Satan might control the whole church like he does this website. To the church in Franklin, run don't just step aside from this poison place.
+++++++++++++++++++++
Correct ... that congregations are autonomous. That is not the issue, however. The issue is when the elders, who should teach as they have been taught, allow the congregation to be intruded upon and its affairs interfered with by forces that cause division and disunity.
There is such a thing as "lessons learned." Good lessons from past experiences of other congregations. Unfortunately, you've been poisoned already, and there's no good lesson that you're capable of learning anymore.
I admire the real ole Paul of the early New Testament church -- not you.
Donnie
This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address 68.19.221.212 on Aug 1, 2007 7:56 PM
1 And Uriel said to me: 'Here shall stand the angels who have connected themselves with women, and their spirits assuming many different forms are defiling mankind and
shall lead them astray into sacrificing to demons as gods, (here shall they stand,) till the day of the great judgement in
2 which they shall be judged till they are made an end of. And the women also of the angels who
3 went astray shall become sirens.' And I, Enoch, alone saw the vision, the ends of all things: and no man shall see as I have seen.
23. Now I have much grief, my children, because of your lewdness, and witchcrafts, and idolatries,
which ye will work against the kingdom,
following them that have familiar spirits (The Witch of Endor used an empty wineskin as a echo instrument)
The familiar spirit is not a 'little channeler" from Osburn's ACU but is a musical instrument: a hollow WINESKIN:
Owb (h178) obe; from the same as 1 (appar. through the idea of prattling a father's name); prop. a mumble, i. e. a water-skin (from its hollow sound); hence a necromancer (ventriloquist, as from a jar): - bottle, familiar spirit.
Similarly, a Psaltery is:
Nebel (h5035) neh'-bel; or neÇbel nay'-bel; from 5034; a skin- bag for liquids (from collapsing when empty); hence a vase (as similar in shape when full); also a lyre (as having a body of like form): - bottle, pitcher, psaltery, vessel, viol
Nabel (h5034) naw-bale'; a prim. root; to wilt; gen. to fall away, fail, faint; fig. to be foolish or (mor.) wicked; causat. to despise, disgrace: - disgrace, dishonour, lightly esteem, fade (away, - ing), fall (down, -ling, off), do foolishly, come to nought, * surely, make vile, wither..
The sounding brass among the Greeks (1 Corinthians 13:1) was a more sophisticated "familiar spirit."
Echeo (g2278) ay-kheh'-o; from 2279; to make a loud noise, i.e. reverberate: - roar, sound.
And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Lu.21:25
Echos (g2279) ay'-khos; of uncert. affin.; a loud or confused noise ("echo"), i.e. roar: fig. a rumor: - fame, sound.
For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest, Heb. 12:18
And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more: Heb.12:19
The Testament of Judah continues:
ye will make your daughters singing girls and harlots for divinations and demons of error, and ye will be mingled in the pollutions of the Gentiles:
for which things' sake the Lord shall bring upon you famine and pestilence, death and the sword, avenging siege, and DOGS (catamites) for the rending in pieces of enemies,
and revilings of friends, destruction and blighting of eyes, children slaughtered, wives carried off, POSSESSIONS PLUNDERED.
temple of God in flames, your land desolated, your own selves enslaved among the Gentiles,
and they shall make some of you eunuchs for their wives; and whenever ye will return to the Lord with humility of heart, repenting and walking in all the commandments of God, then will the Lord visit you in mercy and in love, bringing you from out of the bondage of your enemies.
24. And after these things shall a Star arise to you from Jacob in peace, and a Man shall rise from my seed, like the Sun of righteousness, walking with the sons of men in meekness and righteousness, and no sin shall be found in Him.
And the heavens shall be opened above Him, to shed forth the blessing of the Spirit from the Holy Father
100% of the time the Bible, ancient contemporaneous documents, the Classics, the church fathers and the "death count" among theatrical performers makes the absolute claim that music is POLLUTING because USERS AND ABUSERS use it to fool the fools to keep you from listening to the ALREADY EXPOUNDED songs of Jesus the Christ of God: the ONLY Holy Spirit.
Grace is simply the favor or good pleasure of God to save us so that we can become DISCIPLES of Christ. This was God's contrast to the fleshly Grace- Focused religions of homosexual gods and goddesses and emasculated or "sex changed" priests called DOGS as the "ministers of the gods."
kuôn
II. as a word of reproach, to denote shamelessness or audacity in women, rashness, recklessness in men, Hom.
II. the Trag. apply the term to the ministers of the gods; the eagle is Dios ptênos kuôn Aesch.; the griffins Zênos akrageis kunes id=Aesch.; the Bacchantes Lussês k. Eur., etc.
Paul and Peter OUTLAWED "prophets" because you might open yourself up to false prophets without knowing it until you have been afflicted. In this he grasped the statement of Jesus that the NEW PLACE of worship is in the human spirit and NOT in places, not in houses built by human hands and not by the WORKS of human hands: music has always been the most works-intensive art and is therefore pure LEGALISM and always POLLUTED and polluting:
Beware of DOGS, beware of evil WORKERS, beware of the CONCISION. Ph.3:2
For we are the circumcision, which worship God IN THE SPIRIT and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh. Ph 3:3
The MUSIC-DOG connection is 100% and none of the heretics (word includes house building) can save your soul.
For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. Re.22:15
ANYONE who tells you that there is a hint of approval of any kind of music in the worship of a HOLY (wholly) Spirit God loves to lie. Anyone who denies that the Bible--from Genesis to Revelation--associates music with repudiating God and His Word loves to lie. Of course, they won't answer: that is part of the PLAN of the agent of evil. They have the property, you have an empty bank account so you cannot educate your childrn and whats to argue about. Remember, that anyone who OPPRESSES you and takes you CAPTIVE by claiming the "law of giving" is also a liar and a thief. They are quite wecome to find a shred of evidence: they won't and they CAN'T because the MUSIC message is that you have fallen and will never get up.
I don't intend to get personal but I am telling you that the universal PERSONA of performing rhetoricians, sOPHISts (serpents), singers, musicians and craftsmen (techne includes house building) is not pretty. I don't know why people have the need to present this persona as representing God in Christ standing in their holy place (Podium, tower)
Come to Fourth Avenue. See what its like. See hearts being moved. See God working. Quit living off hear say. If you have problems with our styles of worship, don't gossip about it. What does that do? Have a Christ-like conversation with the people who lead it. You are a sick man and you need a change.
I got to clap today and listened to an outstanding sermon by Joe Beam..
My wife and I walked up to this CoC building in Franklin,Tn and as we approached the building..there was a sign that told of it's beginning in 1833 with names like Alexander Campbell...The people were so friendly and on fire that if we went home before the worship began...we would have been blessed..but it was a contemporary service that was involved in progressive worship style and it's hard to believe that this old congregation supported it's leadership by accepting a contemporary worship service with praise teams of both men and women facing the front..
It was so sweet to see the little girls passing out information cards...a lot of clapping and some hand raising..It did my heart good to see the spirit of worship being expressed without the condemning spirit of others frustrating their efforts.
The older lady in front of me had been a member many years and I said,I bet you have seen a lot of changes here...She smiled and said yes...The problem they have is enough parking and room for all the people..However,it's only worship style and no righteousness comes by it either way..to each his own.
[posted on iBelieve. Did Keith furnish the DODADS?]
Clapping as APPLAUSE points to you guys and that is why you try to DEFUSE those who out you with mocking. But WE know who is doing WHAT, don't WE? I don't think you want to use the word etiology. Maybe look up another one. However, I am giving you WORD DEFINITIONS and HOW they are used in all of the texts. When I tell you that you people USE the word PSALLO in order to USE the paying audience, AND I tell you that you land RIGHT in the middle of perverts plucking the harp string or bow string then THAT is what it means. Any kid with remedial reading, 3rd grade, would interpret IN THE HEART as NOT on a harp.
Epilêkeô, A. clap the hands in applause, or beat time to the dancers, Od.8.379.
Homer, Odyssey 8:
But when they had tried their skill in throwing the ball straight up, the two fell to dancing on the bounteous earth, ever tossing the ball to and fro, and the other youths [380] stood in the lists and beat time, and thereat a great din arose. Then to Alcinous spoke goodly Odysseus: "Lord Alcinous, renowned above all men,2 thou didst boast that thy dancers were the best, and lo, thy words are made good; amazement holds me as I look on them."
Krotos , ho, A. rattling noise, made to collect a swarm of bees, beat of the feet in dancing, snapping of the fingers, clash of arms rhuthmoio . 2. k. cheirôn clapping of hands, applause, b. in token of RIDICULE
Rhuthmos , Ion. rhusmos (v. infr. 111, IV), ho: ( [rheô] ):-- A. any regular recurring motion.. measured motion, time, whether in sound or motion, 2. special phrases: en rhuthmôi in time, of dancing, marching,
Thorubos , ho,
A. noise, esp. the confused noise of a crowded assembly, uproar, clamour... a confused clamour 2. esp. in token of approbation or the contrary, a. applause, b. groans, murmurs, great murmurs are abroad among us,
II. TUMULT, confusion, 2. confusion of mind, I ran a risk of being stoned,
It was prophesied that Messiah would not CRY OUT or call a popular assembly of the MASSES. Therefore, when we see this APPLAUSE word it ALWAYS speaks of popular and usually destructive or perverted groups.
Thorubos (g2351) thor'-oo-bos; from the base of 2360; a disturbance: - tumult, uproar.
When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing, but that rather a TUMULT was made, he took water, and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person: see ye to it. Mt.27:24
And he cometh to the house of the ruler of the synagogue, and seeth the TUMULT, and them that wept and wailed greatly. Mk.5:38
And when Jesus came into the rulers house, and saw the MINSTRELS and the people making a noise, Mt.9:23
When you say pipers or fluters or minstrels you identified the PARASITE who sold their body: Flute-Girl and Prostitute are equivalent.
Auletes (g834) ow-lay-tace'; from 832; a flute- player: - minstrel, piper.
He said unto them, Give place: for the maid is not dead, but sleepeth. And they laughed him to scorn. Matt 9:24
But when the people were put forth, he went in, and took her by the hand, and the maid arose. Matt 9:25
Put forth is:
Ekballo (g1544) Ekballoek-bal'-lo; from 1537 and 906; to eject (lit. or fig.): - bring forth, cast (forth, out), drive (out), expel, leave, pluck (pull, take, thrust) out, put forth (out), send away (forth, out).
The Minstrels or musical team were theatrical performers. Therefore, CLAPPING was to put them forth or out. They had no place in the healing presence of Jesus:
BALLO (g906) bal'-lo; a prim. verb; to throw (in various applications, more or less violent or intense): - arise, cast (out), dung, lay, lie, pour, put (up), send, strike, throw (down), thrust. Comp. 4496.
One use by the Greeks is:
Sku-bal-izô , look on as DUNG, reject CONTEMPTUOUSLY,. skublizô: --later squabble
Skubalon (g4657) skoo'-bal-on; neut. of a presumed der. of 1519 and 2965 and 906; what is thrown to the dogs [catamites], i.e. refuse (ordure): - dung.
Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, Ph.3:8
Skulon (g4661) skoo'-lon; neut. from 4660; something stripped (as a hide), i.e. booty: - spoil.
CLAPPING has much the same meaning: By APPLAUDING HIM you EXPLODE HIM:
EX-PLO-DO (EX-plaudo ), to DRIVE OUT or off by clapping; orig. a scenic word said of a player, to hiss or hoot off, EXPLODE HIM.
II. Transf. beyond the scenic sphere.
A. To drive out or away, to CAST OUT, to SCARE AWAY,
Congratulations on the Jesus Mocking Team. This is EXACTLY what they did whey they PIPED hoping that Jesus would sing and dance the PERVERTED Dionysus dance (the Abomination of Desolation.)
I PROMISE YOU, if I EVER find MUSIC in a religious sense which is not the MARK of prostitutes and sodomites doing RELIGION, I will let you know! Hey, the Vineyard (aka New Winskin Lady) and most "worship teams" gladly CONFESS to leading you into a sexual encounter with the SPIRIT.
BUT JUST DON'T CALL IT AN EKKLESIA OR SYNAGOGUE OR SCHOOL OF CHRIST: IT IS A PAGAN CENTER OF RELIGIONISM. You need to go ALL THE WAY and take the name of Christ off. Soon.
by the way 4th avenue church is a lot bigger than yours, had far more baptisms than yours and their mission program is far larger than your church, correct?
but since you've not approved of these guys, it's all wrong, right.
What I want to know is how many of the OWNERS did you lose before you added the ATTRACTANTS? Other than that I don't car what you guys do or any system of RELIGINISM does: it has no connection to the ekklesia or synagogue or school of the Bible which has NONE of the legalism of singing songs as ENCHANTMENT, the Law of Giving or the Law of Tithing, or WORSHIP as rituals. Jesus DIED to give me REST from the laden burdens of the clergy which means "spiritual anxiety created by religious rituals."
REST means almost totally stop the preaching, stop the singing, stop it stop it stop it.
I don't DO BODY COUNTS because I will bet that not one of yours understands the meaning of DISCIPLESHIP which has NOTHING in common with worship rituals.
I don't HAVE a house in which "god cannot be worshipped" and like Paul, Jesus didn't send me to baptize so that the kiddies can chew gum and eat some of that stuff.
My very expensive MINISTRY has been restructured to cost me about a hundred dollars a month. With that I GO into all the world with sunlight or batteries and do about 250,000 "sermon listens" a month. My favorite count is from people who have removed their children from clappy-clangy noise which destroys their spirit and those being EXORCISED from the LAW OF GIVING. So, MY body count is SUBTRACTIVE rather than ADDITIVE AND ADDICTIVE.
You could do better with some good belly dancers. Again, I don't much care except for those you have betrayed because there is NOTHING Christian about a MUSICAL service. It DOES fulfill the prophecy of Revelation 18.
Fourth Avenue has a power hungry, dishonest leadership. Certain leaders want to force the instrument in and drop the "of Christ" part out of the title.
Don't know about instruments at 4th avenue in their future but their "worship leader" did talk them into buying him an expensive recording studio. And many are now wondering why it's taking so long to get that pulpit filled. I mean this is a church that split just a few years ago. Well that worship leader apparently feels with his talent and a "star" preacher they can be the next "big thing." Just ask Jeff Walling how many times they've called him this year about that job and he keeps turning them down. What they forget is the average joe in the pew doesn't know "celebrity preacher names" like folks writing to this site. They forget that whether it's Max Lucado Rubel Shelly or even Jeff Walling or Rick Atchison or Mike Cope each guy came to their congregation as basically a "unknown" in the brotherhood and built a relationship and credibility thru 15 -25 years of loyal service. 4th has passed on many good people because of a view of wanting a quick fix with a big gun to lead them into a whole new building and school on property they've already been looking into for a year. Few preachers of any credibility want to (1 want into a place where the first goal is to raise of boatload of money for a new building or (2 risk having to pretty much answer to a song leader. Joe Beam was the preacher but it ended up being the Ken Young Show each week and he does hog that pulpit with his praise team. And the elders are still trying to deliver a noteable name because Ken is promising the next Saddleback right there in Tenn if they do...This sounds like dramatic rumor talk right? Came to me from a guy caught up in the new preacher search.SO HOW LONG DOES IT TAKE TO FILL THE JOB at 4th ave? They're aren't even close now because the "celebrity names " they keep going to say "no thanks." Joe Beam make it perfectly clear he was taking that job on an "interim basis" so they've had a spell to be planning on this challenge. Just be glad the same fellows who run that church aren't running a big corporation. If they were they'd be the next Ford or General Motors. There ARE solid members there. And about 300 new ones who came about the time Brother Shelly announced he was leaving Woodmont Hills. Maybe the solid members can have a heart to heart talk with the two guys trying to run the whole thing. And if you're a member..you DO know what i mean.
Do you think the rocks should cry out instead of believers? On what authority did people spread their cloaks or cry out in loud voices praising Jesus as he passed on the colt in Luke 19:35-40? Could it be that they used the heartfelt emotion that God created in them to praise God with all that was within them? They used their passion and zeal for God's glory! We should do the same. If I'm happy, I smile. If I moved to raise my hands toward God in adoration of his diety, I raise my hands. If I want to applaud God for his goodness, I clap my hands in greatefulness to the King of Kings. One question... I know of no scripture authorizing smiling in worship. I see people smiling in worship? where is that authorized?
Beyond this short ditty, You need to learn about the prophecy of Jesus sitting on an ass and the BRANCH spreading ritual which Jesus UTTERLY FULFILLLED along with bringing salvation: why do you STILL want to revert to LAW as all musical 'worship' clearly pleads for? In the words of John Calvin we might paraphrase: "Why are the PREACHERS still sitting on their ASSES while the threshing Oxen are starving?" Huh? Tell me if you can.
Matt 21:8 And a very great multitude spread their garments in the way; others cut down branches from the trees, and strawed them in the way.
Matt 21:9 And the multitudes that went before, and that followed, cried, saying, Hosanna to the son of David: Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord; Hosanna in the highest.
You will remember that these people were BURDENED by the clergy who rode them like pack animals. Jesus would come to give REST which means "stop the singing, stop the loud speaking, stop the instrument: just stop it, stop it, stop it and rest" because the SABBATH was not for ritualistic, paganistic worship but for REST. Can you comprehend the word REST as in the word REST? No?
They were on the FAR SIDE of the Cross and were crying out for MERCY like lost souls: they were not effeminate males singing and clapping to SILENCE JESUS:
G5614 hÿsanna ho-san-nah' Of Hebrew origin [H3467 ] and [ H4994 ]; oh save!; hosanna (that is, hoshia-na), an exclamation of adoration: — hosanna.
H3467 yasha yaw-shah' A primitive root; properly to be open, wide or free, that is, (by implication) to be safe; causatively to free or succor:— X at all, avenging, defend, deliver (-er), help, preserve, rescue, be safe, bring (having) salvation, save (-iour), get victory
H4994 n'naw A primitive particle of incitement and entreaty, which may usually be rendered I pray, now or then; added mostly to verbs (in the imperative or future), or to interjections, occasionally to an adverb or conjugation:—I beseech (pray) thee (you), go to, now, oh.
You confess that you don't KNOW WHO IS THIS MAN? Why are YOU still greeting Messiah 2,000 years after He HAS COME, given the rest and salvation the people LACKED and cried out for and act like the Scribes, Pharisees and Hypocrites. Did no none tell you that Messiah HAS COME?
Matt 21:10 And when he was come into Jerusalem, all the city was moved, saying, Who is this?
Matt 21:11 And the multitude said, This is Jesus the prophet of Nazareth of Galilee.
Matt 21:12 And Jesus went into the temple of God,
and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple,
and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers,
and the seats of them that sold doves,
Jesus CAST OUT the buyers and sellers just like he CAST OUT or ejected the Musical Minstrels LIKE ONE EJECTS DUNG and as Lucifer (Zoe) was cast out of heaven using a word meaning to "steal your inheritance, play the flute, pollute and prostitute." Peter identifiers retailers of the Word as MERCHANDISE as adulterers.
Jesus PAID IT ALL and Paul repudiated the notion of A LAW OF GIVING.
Therefore, you CANNOT be a Christ follower POST the Cross and use church for MERCHANDISING. You cannot provide work for professional speakers or singers or clappers or dancers or--as in all similar paganism--soothsayers and prostitutes. Jesus cut you OFF AT THE KNEES and He will NOT heal you.
Matt 21:13 And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves.
The synagogue was a SCHOOL OF THE BIBLE and a house of prayer. That is the meaning of the ekklesia: it is not a pagan worship center. The word SPEAK for the ekklesia is defined as "in a whisper or conversational tone." You don't MUSICATE when Jesus is teaching you or you PRAYER: the Hymns were PRAYERS.
The synagogue defined in Romans 15 to EXCLUDE arousing pleasure or excitement was in consideration of the INFIRMITIES of other people. Loud noises creates the SPIRITUAL ANXIETY Jesus died to eleminate by firing the BURDEN LADERS. Here is the approved example where speaking "that which is written" or "scriptures" is the way Jesus provides COMFORT as the COMFORTING Spirit.
Matt 21:14 And the blind and the lame came to him in the temple; and he healed them.
The Great Physician brings SPIRITUAL healing and heals BLINDNESS because His Word is the source of LIGHT and LIFE. Therefore, while Jesus is there to heal the blind through the Word, you are QUITE HAPPY to turn it into a circus which the most immature girl child would not NORMALLY fall into.
Matt 21:15 And when the chief priests and scribes saw the wonderful things that he did, and the children crying in the temple, and saying, Hosanna to the son of David; they were sore displeased,
Jesus is the ONLY High Priest and we worship in the PLACE of our human spirit only when we GIVE HEED to the Word of Christ which is Paul's ONLY worship word. The children HAVE BEEN GIVEN rest from the rituals and it SORE DISPLEASES THE SCRIBES (writers of songs and sermons), Pharisees (change the law to sell to steal the houses of widwos) and Hypocrites which includes "performance preachers, sOPHISts (the serpents), singers, musicians and TECHNE. These were "theater builders and stage managers." In Revelation 18:22 they will go away but they have performed SORCERY v. 23 and God has blown out the LIGHTS (v 24.)
Where is in scripture do we have the authority to smile in our worship assemblies? Smiling is an outward expression relecting an inward felt emotion, feeling or passion. Is it not?
People naturally smile when the pontificators and musicators sit down and shut up. Have you ever noticed the mental distress on people's face when they walk past the preacher, lie and say "great sermon" and can't tell you WHAT he spoke about 15 minutes later at the steak house. That is what happens when you have the WRATH of God poured out meaning ORGE meaning that God sends you "jesters, buffons and fools" to FORCE you to laugh as the end-time LAUGHING EXERCISES. It is a mental disorder created by hypnosis.
My kids forced me to buy hearing aids: I used to go to church and when the SANGING began I could plug them in and TURN them off and SMILE........
Thanks for confessing that you have NO possible way to refute what God in Christ commanded for SCHOOL OF THE BIBLE which has the same authority for "music" as the pagan temples had "back rooms" for the last act of worship. It's all a mercinary den of thieves and house of merchandise.
Now, try to digest what I have said and don't give me the old: "But YOU use toilet tissure and God didn't command toilet tissure" stuff.
ken.....i read this post every now and then to humor myself with the banter. i never read your entire posts because you just ramble. i would like to read them but i'm not (and dont think many others do either) sit there and read the "mini-books" you post for a response. not a knock at you (well not entirely), just giving you some pos. critisism to shorten your posts.....by like 95%! at any rate. i go to 4th, proud of it, dont agree with everything there but who agrees with everything all the time at their home congregations? i happen to be partial to a cappella, but do not feel it to be a salvation issue. that is the point here that i feel you should be aware of. 4th is the most prayerful church i have ever seen....EVER! there is real grace and worship there. any way....let me ask you to please respond, short answer please, to alexander campbells ACTUAL quote of:
"if a church has no real devotion or spirituality in them, music might be a pre-requisite to devotion. but to all spiritually minded christians such aids would be as a cowbell in a concert"
now, obviously campbell is saying he does not prefer it, but that it's alright. this is NOT a salvation issue ken. it is preference. why does God speak of harps in heaven if he has such a big problem with it?
ken, you use this site to attack those who worship in a different manner than you. see that i use the word attack. have you ever read some of the responses you have posted to others on this site? the hate and sarcasm you type towards other christians outrageous. while you work yourself up into a frenzy behind your computer screen to verbally "rebuke" and out-greek & out-scripture others, you more often than not are typing a hateful tone towards others. your arrogance is not christ like ken. now im sure you will edit this/spin this to your liking, because ive been told that you do. you wouldnt be a man if you did that now would you ken? i cant help but envision what you are like and i cant get away from an image of a miserable old pharisee of a man with no happiness in your life. ken, i will pray for you tonight for God to soften your angry heart. really.....i will! i think you actually mean well here.....but you are so misguided. there are salvation issues and then there are non-salvation issues. this is a non-salvation issue.
Amen Bighoss! I totally agree. Ken...we all love you and just want you to experience the peace and joy that is ours in Christ. I love Philippians 2 where it talks about how we as Christians should imitate the humility demonstrated by Christ. We all should be moving towards treating others as more important than ourselves by showering others with love and grace.
Big Ass, I am addressing people who will GLADLY STEAL THE CHURCH HOUSES OF WIDOWS in the interest of NEW STYLE WORSHIP from OLD STYLE BABYLON.
If you cannot GRASP that Jesus nowhere defined outward worship other than GIVING HEED to the Word in the ekklesia, synagogue or SCHOOL OF THE BIBLE which he died to found to get the Doctors of the Law who TAKE AWAY THE KEY TO KNOWLEDGE off our backs and give us REST, then Ken is POSTING the word for the FLEECEES. REST is used throughout the literature in a dedicated sense to mean: Stop the singing, stop the preaching, stop the musisic, stop the PANic and just REST.
The Sabbath was for REST and not worship: it quarantined the Israelites from the Babylonian WORSHIP built around the Sabbath and the Tithe. The people were created as "labor saving devices" and they SERVED the Agent of the gods as "singers, dancers, musicians, soothsayers, priests, prophetesses and PROSTITUTES." According to many ancient resources, when you musicate and get people aroused, Carol Wimber the Vineyard claims to be producing a SEXUAL LIKE CLIMATIC experience with God. The pagans and VOODOO people claim to "make the gods COME." Among the Greeks they recognized is as Oral or Visual ORGASM. They claim it: I disclaim it with my FOOT on their evil mouths.
Jesus gave us REST and Cast Out the musical minstrels like one ejects dung. Jesus exampled and Paul commanded and the church PRACTICED the synagogue or school of the Bible for hundreds of years.
The end time Mother Prostitute Goddess is devoted to LUST and USES the same singers, instrumentalists, craftsmen (theater builders and stage managers), GRINDERS etal. Then John identifies them as performing SORCERY as ALL musical words mean. Then the LAMPS are removed: no more light.
Therefore, I teach the facts and if you feel the attack it may prove that you are probably on the unlawful dole and cannot face the truth. I would still care less except a band of INSTRUMENTALISTS claiming to be church of Christers have conspired to RESTRUCTURE churches of Christ and they mount the true HATE CAMPAIGN against anyone who will not BOW TO BAAL when the clergy pipes.
If you guys just give it up and quit stealing churches--a congenital defect of the Stoneites--then happy non-instrumental churches of Christ will perform very well with out a PhDuh from ACU to be "Prophet, Chaneller and Facilitator" to go out and MANAGE THE CHANGE.
I quote the facts for those who want to know that there is NO MUSICAL content to any worship of a spirit God. And ALL musical terms used as PROOF TEXTS come from males PLUCKING the harp to groom the 'youth ministers' for pederasty--that which then and now is claimed to BIND the flesh and spirit together.
I don't LIKE them and my example is Jesus who CAST OUT the musicians and Paul who repudiated the worship of the CONCISION AND DOGS by confining worship to be in the PLACE of the human spirit--right where Jesus said is the ONLY place God even looks for worship. There is no other way to express the COLLECTION PLATE upset other than to say that God in Christ was Pissed off. The Lamb I honor will come with rods of iron, and if Isaiah 30 has meaning for us as it did for other nations, then he will BEAT people into the FIRES with musical instruments.
So, if you bandits are stealing from the poor to BE MEDIATORS in song and sermon I think you are vipers and you will just have to like it: there is no nice way to tell bandits to take their saddle off the backs of widows and hard working HONEST PEOPLE.
Worship happens only when you BURN UP or sacrifice the FLESH. There is NO law of preaching because there is no preacher based on the bible and most of church history other than evangelists, NO law of Giving because Paul told me so and all of church history before the Wild Frontier Americans restored Gnosticism. No law of SANGING: for those with A holy spirit the word is SPEAK, preach, teach and admonish. Paul for the literte put BOTH the singing (as arousal) and the MELODY in the PLACE of the human heart or Sprit because GOD doesn't listen or watch the body worship (Isaiah 11).
There is NO INSTITUTIION: people call themselves into assembly, study the word, pray, take the Lord's Supper, DON'T take up a collection, DISassemble themselves and like the EKKLESIA there is no INSTITUTE left to suck up the time and money from the DESTITUTE.
So, guess Ken will tell you NOT to drink KoolAid and those who Water the Wine and retail the Word as RETAILERS (polluters re. Peter) will just have to get used to the fact that the ABUSED are as mad as hell and are not going to take it any more. There is not GENTLE way to tell people to quit feeding and fondling VIPERS.
Now, take one of the BIBLE TEXTS or GREEK definitions which you cannot PROCURE from any Anti Christ University for ANY amount of money, and tell me what is wrong with it. If you want a lover, go watch the fellas musicating in the holy places.
wow ken, your christ like example once again is incredible! i can so hear Jesus himself calling me big-ass. i can so hear his sarcastic voice saying a curse word. if we a couple of things:
1) what on earth was all that ramble you just typed? are you sane ken? prostitutes stealing from the hard working man????? what on earth are you talking about???? i dont think that you are sane and therefore i probably wont respond much more to your posts because one cant debate logically and/or scripturally with someone who's head is in la-la land.
2) you didnt even respond to the question i had for you in regards to the ACTUAL QUOTE by cambell. are you going to respond to that ken (logically of course). CAN you respond to that ken?????? or have you been thrown a curve ball that you can not hit? I AM CHALLENGING YOU TO RESPOND TO THIS ACTUAL QOUTE KEN.
ken you are a spiritual fraud. you can type scripture and greek till your fingers fall off but you are still a fraud. nothing about you say anything of being a true christian. nothing about you is meek or humble. you rip everyone on this site who disagrees with your view of the scripture, damn them to hell under the guise of "standing up for what is written", "standing up for Gods word".....oh yeah, you say if i/we feel insulted by that then we must be feeling our guilt. read the TONE of Hebrews for the example i am trying to make you understand. it is not what you say BUT how you say it ken. i wonder what the book of hebrews would have sounded like if you had been the author? allow me pontificate verse 1 & 2 of the "ken sublett" authored version of the book of Hebrews:
"whoa to ye big-ass prostitutes of thy time, thieving from the shephards whom toil and the hard working man, have ye no faith? damn ye to the eternal lake of sulfer and fire, that ye children may scream in torment whilest thou zoe group playest thou harp for ye for eternity. "
ken.....maybe you need to pray that God allow you to relax. maybe you should go to extremes and crack open a budweiser and watch some of the masters golf tournament.
I called you BIG ASS because that is what you have made of yourself. In the words of John Calvin "why should the lazy asses be fed while the plowing oxen starve?'" Indeed. Wow, Rubel has soothsayed "Located Missionaries" to go along with the Missional Church with Apostles and Profit. Or, as we say down in the holler: "Apostates and Profits."
2) you didnt even respond to the question i had for you in regards to the ACTUAL QUOTE by cambell. are you going to respond to that ken (logically of course). CAN you respond to that ken?????? or have you been thrown a curve ball that you can not hit? I AM CHALLENGING YOU TO RESPOND TO THIS ACTUAL QOUTE KEN.
"if a church has no real devotion or spirituality in them, music might be a pre-requisite to devotion. but to all spiritually minded christians such aids would be as a cowbell in a concert"
now, obviously campbell is saying he does not prefer it, but that it's alright. this is NOT a salvation issue ken. it is preference. why does God speak of harps in heaven if he has such a big problem with it?
Just like Jesus, I get PISSED OFF when I see collection plates (called trumpets) and MUSICAL MINSTRELS. Why do you feel so spiritual and lie so beyond redemption? Why do ALL of the "instrumental" proponents feel the URGE to lie about the Bible and the total Restoration Movement. I know that it is now PERMITTED in the postmodern, postBiblical, post-Christendom world of the Missional Church cult.
Maybe if I can keep from lying to COLLECT and unlawful WAGE for conducting a pagan form or religion defined as that of the harlot WOMAN in Revelation 18, and ignoraing the direct commands for the SYNAGOGUE (from which music of all forms was excluded) to speak WITH ONE MIND and ONE MOUTH using THAT WHICH IS WRITTEN or SCRIPTURE to Edify or educate, glorify God and NOT deliberately sow discord I and be all of the things you called me as a not too polite RACA.
I think that to quote tidbits is so preachery and so dishonest that I shudder for your soul. First, you should know that the Reformers came out of an absolute REPUDIATION of singing "the erotic, praise witchy songs" intending to perform the WORLD'S ODLEST PROFESSION of prophesying. None of te groups which made up the RM could bring themselves to even THINK that such a horrible thing would be afflicted on People after men like Calvin had RECOVERED them from apostasy. Further, you may not know that not even Catholics dared ever to "sing congregatonally with an organ accompaniment."
Now, look at the CONTEXT and then tell me that Alexander Campbell gave YOU authority. Mr. G had recommended instrumental music because the worshipers of MARS used it. And indeed, the Catholic Encylcopedias says that "music was adopted because it was COMMON to all pagan cults." That happened AFTER the pagans came flocking into the priesthood to GET PAID.
Alexander Campbell responds to the letter from Mr. G: The argument drawn from the Psalms in favor of instrumental music,
is exceedingly apposite to the Roman Catholic, English Protestant, and Scotch Presbyterian churches, and even to the Methodist communities.
Their churches having all the world in them--that is, all the fleshly progeny of all the communicants, and being founded on the Jewish pattern of things--baptism being given to all born into the world of these politico-ecclesiastic communities--
I wonder not, then, that an organ, a fiddle, or a Jews-harp, should be requisite to stir up their carnal hearts, and work into ecstasy their animal souls, else "hosannahs languish on their tongues, and their devotions die."
And that all persons who have no spiritual discernment, taste, or relish for their spiritual MEDIATIION, consolations and sympathies of renewed hears, should call for such aid, is but natural.
Pure water from the flinty rock has no attractions for the mere toper or wine-bibber. A little alcohol, or genuine Cognac brandy, or good old Madeira, is essential to the beverage to make it truly refreshing.
So to those who have no real devotion or spirituality in them, and whose animal nature flags under the oppression of church service, I think with Mr. G., that instrumental music would be not only a desideratum, but an essential prerequisite to fire up their souls to even animal devotion.
But I presume, to all spiritually-minded Christians, such aids would be as a cow bell in a concert.
Now, you tell me that JESUS ALSO needs a Bud when he "cast out the musical minstrels" more or less violently as one CASTS OUT DUNG?
WOW........Ken you "suspended" me from this site but have graciously allowed me back in!
July 27 2006, 11:58 PM
Ken.........thank you for finally publishing my post. i think i stumped you at first and you "banned" me because you did not have a response and needed time to do some research, probably at the woody loden library at freed-hardeman. anyway, your argument is very, very interesting. it is an argument that i myself must research and read about. i do not profess to have all the answers, nor do i think you do, nor does anyone else in this world. my basic point is that we as members of the church of christ do an awful lot of divisional arguing about things that i personally feel are NOT salvation issues. that is my opinion.....my mind is open, not closed. i am not the christian man i should be.....but i will never reach that plateu. that is why i depend on God's promise of grace and mercy. i am always looking for someone to challenge my mind and my heart so that i may seek greater spiritual wisdom. i just happen to think that in regards to this debate, you are wrong. in my heart i believe the teachings of the "old paths", but i also must be spiritually wise enough to attempt to recognize the weak points of those teachings so that i may become closer to God, Jesus & the Holy Ghost.
It has been a long time since anyone bothered to comment on 4th Ave in Franklin Tenn, one of the fastest growing counties in the country. A couple of years ago they were moving forward with growth running around 1400 attendees, and there was well known conflict over who's running the show, the "worship leader" or the preacher. The preacher, Joe Beam left. He came in during a healing period as this church had a well documented ugly split and seemingly they were recovering with a vision.
Over the past year no less than 3 gentlemen have declined their offer as pulpit minister according to a concerned member frustrated but too intimidated to dare ask the elders for fear of getting one of those bland vague and empty answers.
Tne TENNESSEAN reported months ago 4th ave wanted to sell their downtown property and move to Spring Hill and build a school and fancy new building but some zoning issues supposedly has that on hold. Members have been leaving but most don't seem all that bothered that there is a rotating member doing his favorite topic randomly and one wonders if the leadership just can't find someone to take the job.
Today we look at a society with bad leaders in company's,ineffective leaders in govt and some puny leaders as heads of homes..not all...but we see it.
I wonder if great churches are subject to be a victim of apathy with settling in to a "we're get to it one day" kind of attiude and noone demanding the best of ourselves and our leaders. We can go back and forth all day about who's right and wrong but let's assume the Lord gave a church a lot of potential and the church didn't maximize it. In business they'd fire the CEO. In colleges we'd change presidents. But in churches we explain it away. Our Lord deserves 100% from members and leaders and it just seems odd to be stuck on this one. Or this is the "elephant in the room" story that nobody wants to preach at 4th and nobody wants to talk about it.
Maybe the members will fire one off saying "hey buster it's none of your business" I just know it's hard to have a church stay focused with changing faces this long. I know there's no excuse for a church in Williamson County to be losing members, and a few years ago a lot of good men would have gladly and quickly taken a job offer. Maybe a solution is finally near. So why did it take or long or why is it taking so long.
Someone on another forum enraptured over how funny Jeff Walling was on Psalm 107.
Thinking the person wanted to discuss the Psalm rather than get in a good stroke for Jeff And Streams Franklin, I actually posted a response. Well, she / he got irate that I didn't fill in the blank just right. Because those who do not teach that which has been taught must be in the performmance business we should note that Jesus identifies these speakers, singers and musicians as hypocrites. Our goal it to fill in the blanks left by most "churching," we have posted the Psalm as one of the numerous proofs that the LOSS OF GRACE was based on trying to worship a Spirit God the way pagans worshiped their "demons." The terminal sin was REJECTING THE WORD and Jesus calls those sons of the devil.
Again, I looked at the web page and got sick at what was clearly a SHOWCASE for theatrical performers Jesus called HYPOCRITES by pointing to Isaiah and Ezekiel. Then, I listened to the he / shes / its wailing and clearly getting what the Wimber Vineyard calls a "sexual-like climactic" experience and actually howling as Paul and Amos warned about.
Zeph 1:9 Zep 1:9 In the same day also will I punish all those that leap on the threshold, which fill their masters’ houses with violence and deceit.
Zeph 1:10 And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord, that there shall be the noise of a cry [calling assemblies] from the fish gate, and an HOWLING from the second, and a great CRASHING from the HILLS.
As you LOOK TO THE HILLS this is the PRAISE or "making self vile" you lust after.
You call it SANGING: I call it HOWLING. There is nothing which more vividly OUTS and sounds the trumpet of Revelation better:
AND there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters: Rev 17:1
With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication. Rev 17:2
Don't expect this to be the Holy Roman Empire: if you look at the KINGS of the earth who have LUSTED for the merchandise of the GREAT WHORE you can find those who have the USofA virtually surrounded and are beginning the great BURNING UP TIMES. Churchianity fills the role as the spiritual leaders. Peter identified those who CORRUPTED THE WORD as adulterers or fornicators because they "sell their learning at retail." Clearly, this church fits the theme of "house of merchandise" whom he drove out with the PSALLO rope as He CAST OUT the musical minstrels LIKE DUNG.
So he carried me away IN the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. Rev 17:3
And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication: Rev 17:4
And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. Rev 17:5
This is parallel to LUCIFER who is called "the singing and harp playing prostitute" who sexually seduced Eve in the grden of Eden. All religious singers were prostitutes or Sodomites. That was the warning of Paul that the DOGS would be outside lurking and singing their Catamite songs if you DID NOT worship IN the place of the SPIRIT. Wolves as elders who lead churches astray are also MARKED thusly:
And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration. Rev 17:6
Jesus identifies them as murderers of the PROPHETS to who the Spirit OF Christ spoke UNIVERSALLY associating music with the PRIESTLY RELIGION which God had abandoned to worship the STARS (Acts 7). Performing STARS are the FALLEN STARS to be unleashed abut now.
It is well understood--and warned about by Plato--that theatrical and musical performers have the PERSONA of fruits and not a good thing to place them in the Holy Place which fits The prophesied Abomination of Desolation which let music and sex into the Jerusalem temple.
Remembering that the BASKETS of summer FRUITS in Amos condemnation of music were of the same character, John notes that the PERFORMING HYPOCRITES in addition to the the BRIDEGROOM and BRIDE will be lost and you have nothing but hot times as God drums you into Topheth specificially prepared for Lucifer (Zoe) and all she can wholly seduce like Eve.
Rev 18:14 And the fruits that thy soul lusted after are departed from thee, and all things which were dainty and goodly are departed from thee, and thou shalt find them no more at all.
Rev 18:20 Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.
Rev 18:21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.
Rev 18:22 And the voice of harpers, and musicians [Apollyon's muses or locusts] and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, [theater builders and stage managers] of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee;
Rev 18:23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee;
and the voice of the bridegroom [Jesus Christ]
and of the bride [Church] shall be heard no more at all in thee:
for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.
ALL musical terms are identified with ENCHANTMENT or casting a spell or SORCERY. The sorcery identified with ALL of the performers Jesus called hypocrites, is in effect a SPIRITUAL POISIONING. That is why the SPEAK word used by Paul is OPPOSITE to poetry or music. Likewise all musical religionists were homosexual or even sex-changed:
Epôidê, Ion. and poet. epa^oidê , hê,
A. song sung to or over: hence, enchantment, spell, epaoidêi d' haima..eschethon Od.19.457 , cf. Pi.P.4.217 ; ou pros iatrou sophou thrênein epôidas pros tomônti pêmati S.Aj. 582 oute pharmaka..oud' au epôidai Pl.R. 426b ; charm for or against
pharmakos
I. a poisoner, sorcerer, magician, NTest.
II. one who is sacrificed as an atonement for others, a scape-goat, Ar.;
and, since worthless fellows were reserved for this fate,
pharmakos became a general name of reproach,
We could write about the Nadab Abihu event which also gives mockers fodder to burn themselves will but suffice it to say that when Paul was speaking of giving his body to be burned it referred to a couple picked out as SCAPE GOATS: they were wined, dined and allowed to musicate for the entire year: then they were burned up. Wouldn't it be a real HAW HAW if God is using the AZAZEL Goats to be HIS / HER final sacrifice knowing that his / her time is short?
The Goat song and Goat singers were named after the star CAPELLA, the she-goat.
But for the cowardly, unbelieving, sinners, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their part is in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death." Rev 21: 8
Isaiah 30 makes it clear that Topheth as HELL was prepared for God to BEAT the musicians there with WIND, STRING AND PERCUSSION instruments Lucifer (Zoe) brought with him / her into the garden of Eden to "steal souls" and money. All of history notes that POETRY and MUSIC is in fact LYING as twice or thrice removes from TRUTH.
I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against the perjurers, and against those who oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and who deprive the foreigner of justice, and don't fear me," says Yahweh of Hosts. Mal 3: [5]
The WRATH of God means that He sends you BUFFOONS. Again, in ISAIAH the MARK and SOUND of God repaying His enemiies is MUSICAL NOISE. Make no mistake, A Capella points to the Popes castrated or deprived singers who sang ORGANUM. Therefore, a capella is a legalistic end run because it is probably even more destructive than machines.
I decided to do what Jeff won't do: teach Psalm 107 as it has been taught. This, like many Psalms and most prophets identifies the same SCREAMING SINGING as did Moses HEARING Idolatry: "It is SINGING that I hear."
This entire website is sad. I understand that you might disagree about certain issues, but to create a website for the sole purpose of complaining about them is just childish. If you feel the need to "warn and admonish", do it face to face with love and humility. Even if you think you are absolutely correct on every issue relating to Christianity, the lack of humility on this site immediately discredits anything said.
+++++++++++++++++++++++
I believe that you should be saddened and embarrassed by the change agents who are on mission to transform the church that Christ established and change God’s directives for the church. Unfortunately, the adverse effect has been either perversion of the truth or division in the church or both.
What makes you think that “doing it face to face with love and humility” is feasible and will cause them to abandon their subversive activities? They’re way too deep into it—they’re beyond recovery from doctrinal alcoholism.
Wasn’t it boldly expressed in Colossians 2:18—“Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.” Compromising the truth or being accommodating to culture-driven doctrines and teachings is not the solution to church issues and problems.
The need to “warn and admonish” is not being directed to those whose perverse schemes are irreversible. Rather, the need to “warn and admonish” is intended for those individuals and congregations that are in the process of being or that have not yet been infiltrated by the change agents.
This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address 70.146.131.155 on May 16, 2007 8:56 PM
Command is to teach TRUTH and refute ERROR: anywhere
May 17 2007, 5:19 PM
Amplifying what Donnie said:
This thread was begun years ago by people knowing that their church was being wrested away from them by unqualified elders allowing the musicians to take over. The people at the time called them liars but it was clear that the PATTERNISM was being repeated. Therefore, you should not try to deny people the right to refute false doctrine anywhere it takes place. Most of the people posting factual information have also had their own churches deliberately discorded by people who cannot tell the truth about the Bible because they are looking for a place to perform and be seen to promote their commercial interest.
Col 2:1 For I would that ye knew what great conflict I have for you, and for them at Laodicea, and for as many as have not seen my face in the flesh;
Colossians 2 also defines the role of the EKKLESIA or school of the Bible in Romans 15. Only by speaking "that which was written" with one MIND and one MOUTH could they glorify God, educate one another and COMFORT one another. This is identical to the other passages which OUTLAWS performance singing:
Col 2:2 That their hearts might be comforted, [by Scripture Rom 15]
being knit together in love, and unto all riches
of the full assurance of understanding,
to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;
"Church" is the time to CONFESS God in Jesus Christ by honoring HIS WORDS which He said "are Spirit and Life." Only the WORD of God is to be used in songs and sermons: otherwise this church CEASES to be a church of Christ and it has been infiltrated and diverted according to a well laid plan. They have NOTHING to offer because:
Col 2:3 In whom [word of Christ only] are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.
Both Paul and Peter prescribe THAT WHICH IS WRITTEN and recorded by face-to-face revelation as the MARK or PATTERN: if they do NOT teach that it is because "there is no truth in them." By speaking "on their own" Jesus identifys children of the Devil. THE REASON IS TO PREVENT-----
Col 2:4 And this I say, lest any man should beguile [para logic] you with enticing words.
Col 2:5 For though I be absent in the flesh,
yet am I with you in the spirit,
joying and beholding your order, [organized dignity]
and the stedfastness of your faith in Christ.
Col 2:6 As ye have therefore
received Christ Jesus the Lord,
so walk ye in him:
Col 2:7 Rooted and built up in him, [edified, educated Rom 15]
and stablished in THE FAITH, [That which is written Rom 15]
as ye have been taught,
abounding therein with thanksgiving.
This is identical to the PURPOSE of the "singing" passages which has no MUSICAL content because teaching that which has been taught is the purpose. The DUTY of the elders is to "teach that which has been taught." When they allow or invite the musicians to take over they fulfil the role of WOLVES Paul warned about. The meaning is that the musical PERSONA is that of a perverse people.
Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you
through philosophy and vain deceit,
after the tradition of men,
after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
Sophisma [from sophizô] 1 a sly trick, artifice, a stage-trick, claptrap,
Clement of Alexandria defined the Sophists
For the Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain; " [Job v. 13; 1 Cor. iii. 19, 20; Ps. xciv. 11.] the Scripture calling those the wise (sofou) who are skilled in words and arts, sophists (sofista) Whence the Greeks also applied the denominative appellation of wise and sophists (sofoi, sofistai) to those who were versed in anything Cratinus accordingly, having in the Archilochii enumerated the poets, said:-
"Such a hive of sophists have ye examined."
And similarly Iophon, the comic poet, in Flute-playing Satyrs, says:-
"For there entered
A band of sophists, all equipped."
Of these and the like, who devote their attention to empty words, the divine Scripture most excellently says,
"I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent." [ Isa. xxix. 14; 1 Cor. i. 19.]
If not yet, someone will be slithering around YOUR church to take it over for musical performance. There is certainly nothing lost in trying to grasp that music is radically condemned for the assembly of God's people.
This web site is not part of or approved by any Church!
...........................THE BOOK
What Happened At the Madison Church of Christ?
There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.
This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison
Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource
references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least
you will recognize the signs early on.
Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't
know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.
Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was
one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.
It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of
it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word
of Jesus Christ.
At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority
of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly
realm.
They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and
to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.
The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan.
Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books,
seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change
so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....
At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to
be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched
through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the
"Community Church Movement"
Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready,
or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the
plans very nature, it had to be secret.
The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was
never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last
15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.
The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the
elders went along unwittingly.
This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell
something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill
in some of the timeline.
To even start to understand whats happening here, you must read the
background materials in the first of the book.
This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be
printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our
web site; http://www.concernedmembers.com/madison
Here is the list of players;
5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten
commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)
