The "SURVEY" in action May 5 2003, 8:15 PM

The so called "survey" was crafted and distributed by the youth minister at the Red Bank Church in Chattanooga, TN. Approx. 2-4 months later worship "format", "style" began to change as a response to the survey. When asked privately and publicly for the survey results the Elders refused to release the results...except in general terms... with no firm numbers or responses... The Elders said these unsigned (because that is they way they instructed us to complete them) surveys were not ever going to be made available to anyone ... (except the select few... my words) They just did what they wanted to do anyway and used the secret results of this "survey" as justification.

Try to be patient with me and do not hesitate to ask for more information. I am a retired engineer and represent no threat to anyone. I want you to try to grasp some fundamentals of the church as it has self-destructed in some areas. These views match those of the Restoration Movement leaders who saw these as marks as apostasy.

First, Christ did not say that He was going to build His CHURCH. The word is ekklesia which is the same as the Hebrew synagogue. Church is named after the legendary lady used by John in defining the end-times of the body of Christ. The synagogue is the "school of the Bible." It began in the wilderness as the Qahal or assembly. Blowing instruments and loud rejoicing was outlawed. The later more organized synagogue had no instruments and no "praise service." A praise team is an organic MUSICAL INSTRUMENT.

The body of Christ gives no one the authority to BURDEN the flock with things which are not necessary and which are known to deliberately sow discord among the brethren.

Second, the body of Christ has only Jesus Christ as the Head and Teacher. Only by the elders "teaching that which has been taught" can Jesus be the teacher. The elders must be APT to teach better than any I have known or they are not apt. Their authority goes no further than the tasks Jesus and the apostles defined. Therefore, they have no authority to purchase "hirelings" to do what they are unable to do.

Part of the end-time apostasy is the rise of dominant pastors who USE some of the elders and permit no entreating easy or not. It is the first MARK of apostasy.

Third, the body of Christ has no professional staff. Jesus fired the doctors of the law and Paul approved of the evangelist who "eats as he goes" and does not see "religion as a means of financial gain" riding on the backs of widows and hard working people. Paul made it a RULE that no claim to rights can be made and still dispense the FREE gospel. Honest evangelists really have no urge to be CEO over "programs."

Fourth, the church CANNOT be a church and be governed by YOUNGERS. This job has been SOLD from those who manufacture youth ministers. F. LaGard Smith says that the DIVISION will end only when youth ministers are fired.

http://www.piney.com/ChLSmith.html

Fifthly, there is NO LAW OF SINGING. Paul's direct command was to TEACH or PREACH to one another with the Inspired Psalms. He said that the Romans were competent to TEACH ONE ANOTHER and defined the task as "glorifying God with one voice" using "that which is written." This means that no one in the congregation has any authority to ENHANCE the rituals knowing that they are OFFENDING many of these little ones. They should get fitted for a millstone.

Sixth, and most important, THERE IS NO LAW OF GIVING. Paul advised the Corinthians to make up a collection which was a year overdue. He made it clear that THIS IS NOT A COMMANDMENT. Therefore, you can obey the Word of Paul and cut off the power supply to men who have inflitrated your church for the purpose of destroying it and turning it into "a theater for holy entertainment."

You must advise the elders that you will not PAY for the youth minister because that is where most of the division is coming from. They are fueled from men like Max Walling who is advising the youth ministers that they might have to get out of the church of Christ if they cannot make changes.

http://www.piney.com/Walling1995.html

Lipscomb gives aid and comfort to these people and undoubtedly is manufacturing preachers in the image of their unfaithful. The seminar on preaching at Lipscomb used a preacher who has organized a SABBATH assembly with instrumental music. Their WHITE PAPER has been reviewed. It is clear to any reader that they pervert every passage and word of the Bible related to "music." It is a fact that the music word is never used of spiritual worship in the entire Bible. On the contrary, it is always associated with telling God: "We will not listen to your words."

Copy and cut this link and paste it into your URL spot at the top of your brouser to see who Lipscomb is using as their authority. There are two parts to the first article. As well we will look at the Hebrew and Greek words related to instruments or singers or music to see that they are all more the DEVILS tools than Gods. The same word can be translated as "play the flute, pollute or prostitute."

http://www.piney.com/Farmers-Branch-Music.html

DARE any pseudo-preacher, youth minister or elder with or without a Phd to refute anything I have said. They cannot and will not. That is exactly why Paul told the Corinthians in so many words that "fools love to be fools." Don't be a happy fool: you have as much right as anyone to TEACH THAT WHICH HAS BEEN TAUGHT. They LIVE, MOVE AND HAVE THEIR BEING knowing that they have hypnotized you into not daring to question "god's announteds." Machiavelli, Hitler and Hegel and Lynn Anderson in 'Navigating the Winds of Change' knew that.

Ken Sublett

Last time I checked, you and I didn't walk on water and your delightful articles, which I'm sure are deemed by others as "works of art," do not appear in red ink. Are we, including you, exempt from reexamination?

You see unlike Rehoboam (Yes, a youth minister actually used and knows the name of an Old Testament king), there are some "Sacred Cows" in ministry who actually seek advise from those older and wiser than we are. We may not seek advise from "Max Walling," but we do seek to evangelize young people. Is that not scriptural?

If I remember correctly, and if you don't mind me using scripture in it's context, I remember a "red inked" sentence, "Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of God. Assuredly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God as a little child will by not means enter it." - oh wait, there's more...And He took them up in His arms, laid His hands on them, and blessed them.

Oh great, now what? What is the world coming to? First, we have a youth minister who can read and write. Second, he enjoys reading and teaching the bible. Third, he shares the same passion for children that Jesus did - not to mention he laid His hands on them and blessed them!

Are you not like the disciples that Jesus Himself was displeased with? Remember, long after you and I are gone, I mean you are food for worms like the rest of us right? People will still be sinful, there will never be a perfect church here on earth, and yes, there will still be immaturity from men like us. When all is said and done, Christ will remain.

The "Sacred Cows" must be doing something right - why else would we be the continual scape goat for the destruction and division of so many churches? LaGard is right, what would the out come be if "fathers" spent as much time with their children as youth ministers often do? Take a wild guess. Or let me; You'd only have yourself to blame for your how your children turned out. You see it's often easier to use a "Sacred Cow" as a babysitter. Right? When you can't talk to your children, send them to the youth minister, if he doesn't give them the answers that a parent would have, well then, it's the youth ministers fault. Right? Please, we've heard it all before and we've heard how pleasent most of the so-called "Christian homes" really are. They're all perfect right? No conflict.

"Deliver me from my persecutors, for they are stronger than I." David, said it pretty could here from within a cave. Been in a cave lately? Nope, you haven't, not because of me, you see I also read the same Paul you read. "Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse."

I don't create web domains specifically dedicated to men like you, in fact I'll be praying for you by name tonight for God to break your, and my heart.

Had I not been emailed your work, we would have never had the chance to talk.

Remember, I was made in the same image you were made in.

Your friend,
A Sacred Cow

With all due respect, I think that the drama went like this: the once "christian" colleges manufacture skills and then manipulate their trainees into the churches.

Whatever the problems with churches who don't even intend to equip by teaching ANY Of the flock, that adds NOTHING to the unscriptural role of Youth Ministers.

Seeing "godliness as a means of financial gain" does not mean "greedy." Rather, it means seeing CHURCH as a place of occupation. Here is how Armageddon, the war of words, is going down. Commercialized religion, especially with the addition of Musical Worship Ministers (an oxymoron unless you are a pagan), is a MAJOR component of the GNP.

The prophecy is that when the Babylon Whore falls, we will have a world-shattering DEPRESSION. I saw somewhere that religon holds 25% of the real estate.

Re 18:22 The music of harpists and musicians, flute players and trumpeters, will never be heard in you again. No workman of any trade will ever be found in you again. The sound of a millstone will never be heard in you again.

With West End in Nashville procuring a worship minister (song leader) for $90.000.00 a year you can begin to see how MUSIC will be the straw which breaks the harlot's back.

So, Bible 101aaa knows that there are NO religious professions. The very act is LEGALISM: retailing the FREE water of the word and STEALING the funds from the onest evangelists. Paul's DIRECT COMMAND to Timothy was that he must LABOR. Paul set the example and issued the direct command by saying he labored to travail. Furthur the YOUNG EVANGELIST was told to exercize charity. That was the feeding of the destitute before they went to work.

Therefore, if you value your soul you should get a job and work when others work. Then you can be a "minister" rather than a "master" when others are doing their EXTRA JOB activities. That is what Paul and his "ministry team" did. That is what he COMMANDED directly even tho warriors and TEMPLE people were due their "daily" dole of bread. He was speaking to the many seeking to live off widows and hard workers that he said, "If they will not work, neither shall they eat."

Sorry, but nothing for sale is Christian, and nothing Christian is for sale. The Bible and church history tells me so.

http://www.piney.com/ChMinistry.html

T. R. Burett wrote:

"When the churches of Christ restore the eldership, and quit hiring preachers to feed the flock on Lord's day, there will be preachers to do missionary work. Also money to pay them for their services. At present it requires all the money of the churches to pay the salaries of the hired preachers, who bring the gospel to the churches, to keep the elders and members converted, and there is no money to send the gospel to the world. Evidently, you have the muzzle of the gun pointed back- wards. About face!

I dare call it apostasy

Ken

With all due respect, I think that the drama is going like this: the once "christian" men, like yourself manufacture conspiracy theories, proof-text the bible and then manipulate their trainees in the churches.

Stealing? Apostasy? Song Leaders - what do you know of West End - nothing! I'm very familiar with the men who helped found that church and make it what it is today...you don't even begin to muster up their integrity. Extra Activities? What are you talking about? I asked you why you have such issues with youth ministers. Who burned you? Who burned your family? You've taken a stero-type of youth ministry and applied it to all men in that field of ministry.

You quote LaGard too. Are you friends with him. Of course not. But then you didn't claim to be. You just lifted his words from his radical chapter on youth and let it ride, didn't you? Call LaGard and ask him if what I do as a youth minister is scriptural or would you like his email address? Maybe I could call my good buddy Max Walling or even Jeff Lucado for some advice on this one.

Get a real job? Work when everyone else works. Once again, you're the retired one here, not me. I didn't go into the ministy to gain a "buck." I know I'll live a life without many of things that you've enjoyed; one of those being retirement. Hello! My father was 69 when he passed away. The day after his sunday sermon. 69! How old were you when you retired to enjoy the "bucks" you earned, while really working?

While your sleeping, I'm working. While you're golfing, I'm working. While you're sitting in your living room kicking back watching soaps, I'm working. Working on helping families regain their families from Satan. The only time I'm not working is right now. Which I have to be honest, the few minutes I spent typing these words have been a waste of time.

I won't retire from ministry. I'm not milking any church and taking away funds from honest evangelists. What do you know of my integrity? Nothing for sell is Christian, nothing Christian is for sell? Did it take your retired days sitting at home to develop those 10 words?

I HAVE A PROFOUND IDEA. This one's for you Ken. I know what you can do with those retired bucks. Instead of going to Florida, support me. I'll continue in ministry. However, I'll go where you tell me to go. I'll take my family and I will help families where ever God needs me. Or maybe you could ask T. R. Burett where I should go, since you quote him as if his words were recorded in red ink - Support me - so then I won't be stealing from honest evangelists. Exercise charity? Well there you go...I'm working it! I've asked you to help me out...

A MASTER? I consider myself a free-agent of Christ. I have only one master and certainly do not consider myself to be getting special cards in the mail this week for boss week...Would you like to be a master? My master maybe. I ask because after I'll all I've heard from you, you're the only control freak in this conversation.

You konw, after all this, I'd love to know what the people in your field of work, when you worked, in your office, those you had direct contact with - what kind of Godly influence you were on them - if any.

Enjoy your you retired life Ken. You have way too much time on your hands. Oh, the next time to talk to LaGar, Max, and Jeff...send them my love.

Sacred Cow Signing off and ashamed that I ever engaged in this folly.

I give you both sides of the coin. Not onesided as profoundly stated by KS

THE BIBLE DOCTRINE OF INSTRUMENTAL MUSIC

SOME WOULD ARGUE

KJV Psalms 150:1-6

1 Praise ye the Lord. Praise God in his sanctuary: praise him in the firmament of his power.

2 Praise him for his mighty acts: praise him according to his excellent greatness.

3 Praise him with the sound of the trumpet: praise him with the psaltery and harp.

4 Praise him with the timbrel and dance: praise him with stringed instruments and organs.

5 Praise him upon the loud cymbals: praise him upon the high sounding cymbals.

6 Let every thing that hath breath praise the Lord. Praise ye the Lord.

KJV Revelation 5:8

And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

The first case in Psalms 150:1-6

KJV Romans 7:1-6

1. Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?

2. For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.

3. So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.

4. Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

5. For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

6. But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

KJV Romans 15:4

4. For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.

THE OLD LAW IS DONE!!

The second case in Rev. 5:8

First this is symbolic secondly it is in Heaven

What is in Heaven is not on Earth!!!!

KJV Matthew 22:30

For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.


AWAY FROM FALSE ARGUMENTS TO THE TRUTH

KJV Ephesians 5:19

19. Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;

KJV Colossians 3:16

Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.

DOES THE NT SAY NOT TO USE THEM?

YES!!

KJV Revelation 22:18-19

18. For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

THEN THE ARGUMENT: THE BIBLE SAYS NOTHING ABOUT SONG BOOKS, PEWS, ETC.

God told Noah to build the ark of gopher wood. If Noah used any other wood he would be held accountable. Yet God did not specify that he could not use oak, or any other wood????

If Noah used a hammer to build the ark, would he be in sin??

NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO!!!!

We use things to accomplish commandments but we do not add to the worship!

KJV Matthew 15:2-9

2. Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread.

3. But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?

4. For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.

5. But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me;

6. And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.

7. Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,

8. This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.

9. But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

I have been a member at Red Bank for over 20 years. The survey you mentioned, I believe was completed over a year and a half ago. Why do you wait now to make write? As far as I can observe here is what is occurring at Red Bank

1. We pray at each Sunday AM service.
2. We sing with out instruments at each Sunday AM service.
3. We do not have praise teams.
4. We observe the Lord's Supper weekly.
5. We contribute an offering weekly.
6. The word of God is preached.
7. Scripture is read.
8. No women lead in worship.

I do not see where the "changes" are occurring.

It is true that a projection system is used. But it has been an asset to our worship in helping us with our singing, and following along with lesson outlines and scripture readings.

Are you currently attendig Red Bank? If so I am sorry that something that occured a year and half ago is an issue with you today. Based on the eight points above what has changed that is not scriptual?

Also the makeup of the congregation has changed drastically since the "survey" as prepared. Not even the same membership.

I just do not see the "changes" that you are talking about.

I also do not understand the use of the word "crafted". This implies deception. I have never seen deception at Red Bank from any of our current ministers, both pulpit and youth. Several people have been misinformed or perhaps have misunderstood so-called positions. I believe in every issue, people have jumped to conclusions with out knowing real facts.

I believe the congregation from the leadership through out the entire body is following God's will.

Why did so many people leave then?

Satan.

The truth does set one free doesn't it.

Seems I have seen this before. Be careful of what you say about others. You will be held acountable for what you say. Time will tell who is right and who is not. Do you dare relie on your own wisdom? We all will see.
If it is of God who can stand against it.

A previous post stated... "If it is of God who can stand against it?"

Of course standing against God is futile. I suppose I need to be further enlightened about the meaning of this passage and its relevance to the topic.

The Buddhist, Muslim, Hindu, and Catholic religions have survived for centuries. Does the fact that no one has been able to "stand againt them" to date, mean that they are in harmony with the Word of God?

This church needs help. I think that the preacher has changed from the man he was because of this church.

I was just wondering what you meant by "changed". How has the preacher changed by being associated with the Red Bank church? Just wondering what you meant by that.

Changed......... He is still a wonderful preacher. He knows the Bible. He knows God's word so well, he can quote scripture and everyone knows that he studys and has a true knowlege of God's word.He truley loves the church.When he first started he would just stand there and preach and hearing the truth from him you just knew he was sincere. The last time I heard him I was not sure how he really felt. The sermon was good but he seemed to feel that he had to be funny or dramatic or just move around to get everyones attention. I was puzzled about the change. Like I said he is a wonderful preacher. He does not need the drama to keep an attentive audience. Just the truth. Just being him self and preaching the truth.

He is a wonderful preacher. He knows the Bible. When I first heard him speak all he had to do was just stand there and preach and you were touched because he was such a strong gospel preacher. He was firm in what he believed and loved God's word and it came thru in his preaching. I am sure he is still firm and true to Gods word. But the last few times I heard him it seemed like he wanted to put on a show to keep the attention of his congeration. To be funny or dramatic. I was not sure how to take him anymore. He seemed more sencere when he was being himself. I believe he is still a firm preacher but it does not take drama. I miss the preacher I first loved to hear.

He traded his backbone for a paycheck. He chose to back an eldership that was asking people to leave. Why? Because those mature Chrisitans wanted to worship God the way he commands them to, and not be "progressive" in their worship because it was more fun and entertaining.

I am so sorry to hear you say that. It is a fear that I have had and prayed that it was not so. Let us pray for this church.

And let us pray for the bitter people who caused so much trouble at Red Bank. I guess they are STILL causing trouble from other congregations. And if this message was from someone at RedBAnk, shame on you for speaking of your congregation like this. If you dont like what is going on, discuss it with the elders, and if you are still not satisfied, then move on.

Shame on everyone for acting this way. I say we all need prayers. No one is perfect we all sin.