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Hohenwald Church of Christ, birds of a feather! Jay Guin Links

October 7 2003 at 5:23 PM
K. Sublett  (no login)
from IP address 63.84.81.63

Jay Guin Partial reviews.

http://www.piney.com/Jay.Guin.Reviews.html
http://www.piney.com/Jay.Guin.The.Promise.of.the.Holy.Spirit.html
http://www.piney.com/Jay.Guin.What.is.Acceptable.Baptism.New.Wineskins.html
http://www.piney.com/Jay.Guin.Instrumental.Music.Old.Testament.html
http://www.piney.com/Jay.Guin.New.Wineskins.Promoting.Instruments.Conclusions.html
http://www.piney.com/Jay.Guin.Church.of.the.Frst.Born.html
http://www.piney.com/Jay.Guin.1.Corinthians.10.html
http://www.piney.com/Jay.Guin.The.Fork.in.The.Road.html
http://www.piney.com/Jay.Guin.Dancing.in.Worship.html
http://www.piney.com/New.Wineskins.Instrumental.Galatians.Music.Jay.Guin.html





Tainted by the Promise Keeper's cult, the Purpose Driven Cult, the Spiritist cult of Max Lucado, the Jubilee Cult of Rubel Shelly and any scam with "promises," the Hohenwald church has done a great leap forward from almost 350 as an average to probably less than 200 now with daily defections.

Major symptom is an ACU product which promotes FEMINIST HERMENEUTICS.

The ACU Agenda: Train PROPHETIC ROLES, CHANELLERS and FACILITATORS the method of subverting the 'hierarchial" views of JESUS and Paul. the end-time subversion is the beginninng-time version which is "FEMINIST hermeneutics stands over against patriarchal hermeneutics" its goal achieved "by small, often unnoticed acts of SUBVERSION. Numerous such incremental changes, like EROSION, will eventually bring down the FORTRESS " ( WOMEN IN THE CHURCH: Reclaiming the Ideal p. 32).

The symptoms from the Masculine Journey is the Feminists and effeminate turn away from the WORD including BAPTISM and the turn to singing silly, erotic praise songs, which in history was for little JEHOVAH to sing up praises to Sophia and mother ZOE to elevate himself up to the seventh, yet inferior, heaven.

It is following the same Madison plan where you get into a charismatic spasm and can't quit shooting yourself in the foot. The people were not fooled but have lived in a decade of gut-grinding sowing of discord.

At the root is Biblical illiteracy.

K. Sublett


    
This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 99.197.222.189 on Oct 8, 2014 11:04 AM


 
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AuthorReply
Harold Sublett
(no login)
63.84.81.128

Letter to Elders

October 7 2003, 8:50 PM 

A letter is posted by a member of Hohenwald Church of Christ. This will list his History and Photography as well as his e-mail. Quoting Harold, ex FHU

"This letter is in response to a very nice letter received from a concerned elder of the Hohenwald Church of Christ where we have attended for some time. A copy is being mailed to each elder, deacon and preachers. Please consider its contents because it is from the heart of a Christian who cares and is concerned about the future of this congregation" I have posted his letter here

http://www.piney.com/Hohenwald.Letter.html


    
This message has been edited by ConcernedMembers from IP address 65.80.188.98 on Oct 8, 2003 8:29 AM


 
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Kenneth Sublett
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63.84.81.199

Hohenwald

October 9 2003, 8:58 PM 

Perhaps following MAX LUCADO and DENNIS DOWNING in Heartlight, Rubel Shelly seems to have his IRREDUCIBLE 7 facts "about Jesus" to now JUST JESUS. I believe that JUST- JESUS has to be ANTI- CHRIST. A Hohenwald elder when asked about baptism being required responded: "That is debatable." Bare bones ethics, according to Spurgeon, one who rejected the necessity of baptism but still served that congregation goes "beyond the pale" and has no sense of basic morality.

Rubel Shelly does the ditto head and writes, but not from the Bible.

"Or, as we sometimes put it: Jesus-plus-anything equals nothing, and Jesus-plus-nothing equals everything.
...But it is so tempting to tack onto the gospel my special take on the Lord's Supper or the millennium, how BAPTISM must be understood or the second coming conceived, how the church must worship or the only acceptable way for it to minister to widows and orphans.
......On and on the Jesus-plus-options can go. And each progression is a movement away from the original Christian message."

Consistent with the Purpose Driven Cult's Pagan baptism, this can have no other meaning than MUSIC'S universal product of Lucifer, the harp-playing prostitute of Tyre, but to SHUT THE MOUTH of the DOCTRINE which Jesus INCLUDED as an essential ingredient of the GOSPEL or good news. The goal of Lucifer (the male/female whore) was to use music to STEAL WORSHIP from the TRUE LOGOS (not the Shelly Pagan Logos).

The predestinated plan was to save people. Faith is ALWAYS ACTIVE. Righteousness has always been by OBEDIENCE of what one believes:

Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Galatians 3:6

> And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; Gen 26:4
> > Because that Abraham
obeyed my voice, and
kept my charge,
my commandments,
my statutes,
and my laws. Gen 26:5

And this was Zacharias prophecy:

"And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying, Luke 1: 67
..Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people, Luke 1: 68
..And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David; Luke 1: 69
..As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began: Luke 1: 70

Who filled the Prophets? "Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. 1 Pet 1:11

Zacharias prophesied that the only way Jesus Christ purposed to GIVE KNOWLEDGE was to REMIT SINS. This would give the disciples A holy spirit or A clear conscience. The ONLY place this occurs is at the COMMANDED time and place of water baptism.

"That we should be (1) saved from our enemies, and (2) from the hand of all that hate us (Satan); Luke 1: 71
..(3) To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and (4) to remember his holy covenant; Luke 1: 72
..The oath which he sware to our father Abraham, Luke 1: 73
....(4) To give knowledge of salvation unto his people
....(5) by the remission of their sins, Lu.1:77

Satan does not want you to RECEIVE any of these. So, he says with a cunning voice: baptism isn't important. If YOUR friends preach baptism they may be FALSE PROPHETS. Better come to me and I will give you rest from your burdens by PLANNING YOUR LIFE and asking you to TITHE or obey the legalistic LAW OF GIVING which fraud would shut down and shut up those SEEING GODLINESS AS A MEANS OF FINANCIAL GAIN--OCCUPATION.

So, Ask: How did Jesus instruct us about how to be SAVED? How did Peter and Paul and all of church history until Zwingli in 1615 understand this. How did Luther the "father" of Sola Fide understand it?

Those who minimize water baptism have ZWINGLI for their savior and we will show that so-called Believer's Baptism was and is identical to PAGAN BAPTISM.

God in Christ wants people not to become THIEVES by accepting the wealth and home of a godly, crippled widow's HOUSE, or other BAIT AND SWITCH on honest people. The Purpose Driven Cult proposes to INFILTRATE and DIVERT in order to STEAL THE CHURCH HOUSES of widow.

No once can be a Christian and propose to use MANIPULATION methods to silence the Word and replace it with effeminate and effeminizing, silly, erotic "praise songs." Praise Singing is one of the most ancient forms of LEGALISM trying to keep the gods from failing. Those pushing the "idolatry of talent" are propelled by the Vineyard which wants to produce a "sexual-like climactic" experience just before the FINAL act or worship: extortion of means.

Ken Sublett

 
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Kenneth Sublett
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63.84.81.72

Baptism 2 for dummies

October 10 2003, 5:09 PM 

We noted that Zacharias prophesied:

The oath which he sware to our father ABRAHAM, Luke 1: 73
..(4) To give KNOWLEDGE of SALVATION unto his people
..(5) BY the remission of their sins, Lu.1:77

The SEVEN SPIRITS of Christ all relate to Divine Knowledge. Only at Baptism are we said to be saved. The FAITH ONLY passages prove that the Christian continues to walk and live BY FAITH. However, faith only does not REMIT SINS.

The Law of Moses was added BECAUSE OF TRANSGRESSION. That mortal sin was adding MUSICAL IDOLATRY at Mount Sinai. Prior to that, God reissued the Abrahamic covenant of grace which had no priesthood. After the musical idolatry God MARKED the nation by turning them over to WORSHIP THE STARRY HOST including Chiun whose number was 666.

Therefore, Paul leapfrogs the entire period of the Law and declares that Jesus would fulfill the Abrahamic covenant in a spiritual sense. The only CONNECT with giving knowledge or "A" holy spirit or A clear conscience is in water baptism.

The Bible (mine) clearly connects baptism and remission of sins.

"Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions (musical idolatry at Sinai), till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. Gal 3:19

http://www.piney.com/MuSinai.html

"Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is ONE. Gal 3:20

Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. Gal 3:21

But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. Ga.3:22

And this is how Paul connected the promise made by the Spirit of Christ to baptism for the REMISSION OF SINS. We become CHILDREN of Faith when we are BAPTIZED into Christ:

"FOR" ye are all the children of God by FAITH in Christ Jesus. Gal 3:26

"FOR" as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have PUT ON Christ. Gal 3:27

...And if ye be Christs, then are ye ABRAHAM'S seed, and heirs according to the promise. Ga.3:29

If you repudiate baptism you fulfill the type of the clergy who REFUSED to enter the kingom and PREVENTED those who were trying to get in. The ONLY WAY to get into Christ is to be BAPTIZED into Christ.

NOTHING but baptism as God's OFFER OF FREE GRACE remitts sins and causes one to be CLOTHED with Christ and become spiritual Israelites.

WE WILL SHOW LATER THAT A BELIEVER IS AN OBEDIENT BELIEVER.

In rejecting Baptism you reject the WHOLE COUNSEL of God contained in the Abrahamic justification by Faith WHICH obeys that which FAITH defines.

This is what Paul concluded again:

For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love. Ga.5:6
..For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. Ga.6:15
..Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing
....but the KEEPING of the COMMANDMENTS of God. 1Co.7:19

And again:

And ye are complete IN him, which is the head of all principality and power: Col. 2:10
..In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Col. 2:11

Paul to the Colossians adds anothe dimension: what we PERMIT Christ to do AT baptism is done as the FAITH of Jesus Christ, the Circumcison of Christ, the Death of Christ, te BURIAL of Christ, the Resurrection of Christ and the OPERATION OF GOD who remits sins ONLY at the time of Baptism.

God CUTS OFF our sin only at baptism: without permitting Christ to wash you and circumcize you spiritually you WILL NOT get into His kingdom. This circumcision relates to Abraham and to baptism:

Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. Col. 2:12
..And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he QUICKENED together with him, having FORGIVEN you all TRESPASSES; Col. 2:13

Faith Only is never said to quicken or give life:

Faith Only does not forgive treaspasses. Being QUICKENED means to be REGENERATED. However, it is neither FAITH regeneration or WATER regeneration: it is by our REQUEST when we are baptized in water (1 Pet 3:21)

Suzoopoieo (g4806) sood-zo-op-oy- eh'-o; from 4862 and 2227; to reanimate conjointly with (fig.): - quicken together with.

To despise BAPTISM is to despise the prophesied and fulfulled and believed doctrine until the Baptists got their FAITH ONLY from Zwingli who, in 1525, claimed that HE INVENTED faith only and REPUDIATED Baptism. Martin Luther who invented Sola Fide said that Baptism was necessary for the FORGIVENESS OF SINS.

The LATTER DAY and probably END TIMES heretics repudiate the almost dying command of Jesus Christ because along with Baptism they no longer have any faith in God to protect His Word. The errors are created by those who RIDE the backs of widows and hard working people using the LIE of the TITHE or the LAW OF GIVING. Certainly JUST-JESUS will never abandon unlawful clergy or the collection plate which has not authority.

Minimizing baptism means that one is NOT YET READY to identify with the SUFFERING SERVANT and cannot be Disciples of Christ.

 
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Kenneth Sublett
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63.84.81.72

Purpose driven: ok to LIE in creating a cult

October 10 2003, 7:12 PM 

We knew that the Purpose Driven Cult was to suck as much money as possible under FALSE PRETENSES. I can't say that I was not amply warned not to trust the leaders.

The ploy is to get your money and then use it to build a pagan worship center to replace the SCHOOL OF THE BIBLE. It was never possible to get an ACU product who had not imbibed the professors who cannot write a single paragraph without lying abot the Bible and deliberately misquoting scholars who misquoted scholars. Remember that Jesus fired the Doctors of the Law because THEY TAKE AWAY THE KEY TO KNOWLEDGE.

I have looked for some word powerful enough to communicate God's "sick at the stomach" feeling as He pukes out "those who speak of their own" who Scripture classes as another SPECIES condemned from the beginning and who sin by SEDUCING people away from God's Word with MUSIC and SEXUAL PERVERSION. The Bible and other literature knows of no exception to the rule that SINGERS were prositutes and instrumentalist were sodomites. That is why in the entire BIBLE the singers and musicians never entered into the Holy Place as a carnal type of the body or church of Christ.

(Yes, the teams are USED to seduce tithers). I'm getting spooky but I just accidentally found a sermon by Charles Spurgeon of baptismal regeneration which was baptizing babies.

"I am told that many in the Church of England preach against her own teaching. I know they do, and herein I rejoice in their enlightenment, but I question, gravely question, their morality.

"To take oath that I sincerely assent and consent to a doctrine which I do not believe would to my conscience appear little short of PERJURY, if not absolute, DOWNRIGHT perjury; but those who do so must be judged by their Lord.

"For me to take money for defending what I do not believe--for me to take the money of a church, and then to PREACH AGAINST what are most evidently its doctrines--I say for me to do this (I shall not judge the peculiar views of other men), for me or for any other simple, honest man to do so, would be an ATROCITY so great that, if I had perpetrated the deed, I should consider myself out of the PALE [boundaries] of TRUTHFULNESS, HONESTY, and common MORALITY.

....COURTS HAVE ALSO HELD IT TO BE ILLEGAL.

"Sirs, when I accepted the office of minister of this congregation, I looked to see what were your articles of faith. If I had not believed them I should not have accepted your call; and when I change my opinions, rest assured that, as an HONEST MAN, I shall RESIGN the office; for how could I profess one thing in your declaration of faith, and quite another thing in my own preaching? Would I accept your pay, and then stand up every Sunday and talk against the doctrines of your standards?

"For clergymen to swear or say they give their solemn assent and consent to what they do not believe is one of the GROSSEST pieces of IMMORALITY perpetrated in England, and is most pestilential in its influence since it directly teaches men to LIE whenever it seems necessary to do so in order to get a living or increase their supposed usefulness. It is in fact an open testimony from priestly lips, that at least in ecclesiastical matters, falsehood may express truth, and truth itself is a mere unimportant non-entity.

"I know of nothing more calculated to DEBAUCH the public mind than a lack of straightforwardness in ministers; and when worldly men hear ministers denouncing the very things which their own Prayer Book teaches, they imagine that WORDS HAVE NO meaning among church men; and that vital differences in religion are merely a tweedle-dee and tweedle-dum [totally unimportant things], and that it does not much matter what a man does believe so long as he is charitable towards other people."

Those who repudiate the role of Baptism have only Zwingli and pagan baptism for their authority.

Instrumental music was brought with Lucifer into the garden of Eden to, in Paul's words, WHOLLY SEDUCE Eve (ZOE) and, in all contemporaneous literature, sodomize Adam. That is why HE caused the FALL. And music is involved in NUMEREROUS falls in the Bible.

I suggest that anyone who lies, cheats and intends to STEAL THE CHURCH HOUSE OF WIDOWS to expand personal TRAFFICKING should begin to look for legal help. Preachers involved will have FEW options because the FALSE TEACHERS are fairly well confined to the urban, mega-churches. Not a good future for raising a family with such a terrible CUNNING DECEPTIONS we hear already confessed. Certainly appears to beyond redemption as a Christian who does not lie, cheat and steal, and who follows the DOCTRINES of Christ.

Elders who SEE NOTHING WRONG WITH INSTRUMENTS have been infiltrating and diverting for their own personal power. You simply cannot steal from others without anticipating some very strong reaction.

If there is a CREED IN THE DEED any legal attempt to lie, cheat, steal and go to law to CHANGE the creed under the ANATHEMA of being sectarian cannot maintain the questionable trust of the community. The DENOMINATIONS will just hold you in contempt. The are ALWAYS more principled than tribal churches of Christ and THEY will not repudiate their beliefs. Conforming for acceptability is a FULLY EXPRESSED inferior position and it will not stand.

 
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Kenneth Sublett
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63.84.81.72

Music as Satanic Warfare by PANS

October 10 2003, 8:51 PM 

The ACU Agenda by Carrol D. Osburn: Train PROPHETIC roles, CHANELLERS and FACILITATORS the method of subverting the 'hierarchical" views of Jesus and Paul. the end-time subversion is the beginning-time version which is "Feminist hermeneutics stands over against patriarchal hermeneutics" its goal achieved "by small, often unnoticed acts of SUBVERSION. Numerous such incremental changes, like EROSION, will eventually bring down the FORTRESS " ( WOMEN IN THE CHURCH: Reclaiming the Ideal p. 32).

FEMINIST (effeminate) THEOLOGY worshiping the MOTHER OF THE GOD is embodied in most Musical Worship. Perhaps because a MASCULINE God and Jesus threatens their PHALLIC POWER from Promise Keepers, the WAR is being waged against Jehovah as the FATHER rather than little ignorant jehovah who had to organize MUSICAL WORSHIP TEAMS to worship Sophis (the serpent) and Zoe called "the beast and female instructing principle."

Jesus condemned Pharisees (praying for profit, stealing houses of widows), Scribes (book writers) and HYPOCRITES. The Greek world knows the Hypocrites as rhetoricians (slick willies), sOPHISts (the serpents in the book of Revelation), singers, musicians and craftsmen. They are identified as performing the task of SORCERY which was to PRODUCE a "spiritual" feeling for pay. All IST or similar endings such as fluteIST, psalmODIA, HharpISTS, or guitarISTS in Greek are PARASITES in Latin. Most of the time to say MUSICIAN or SINGER was to say male or female prostitute.

Revelation 18:22 identifies the BEGINNING-TIME Lucifer as causing the fall of the angels and coming into the garden of Eden with wind, string and percussion instruments. He wholly seduced Eve but Adam was NOT deceived but was, in all ancient literature, was sodomized. The Dionysus musicians as FALSE CLERGY in Jerusalem tried to PIPE hoping that Jesus and others would join in the perverted musical team. History knows that the Jews anticipated that Dionysus would be their Messiah. When the musical team and minstrels wanted to do their songs in the presence of the dead girl, Jesus cast them out "more or less violently" as one Ejects Dung. There is a lot of history connecting the dung heap and the FLUTE-GIRLS who were always prostitutes.

And the voice of HARPERS, and MUSICIANS, and of PIPERS, and TRUMPETERS, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no CRAFTSMAN, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee; Re 18:22

The grinders who manned the millstone were concubines or other PROSTITUTES. The very word CHURCH derives from CIRCE the holy whore of John's coded words

You may have noted that Paul said SPEAK (preach) one to another. The purpose was to TEACH and ADMONISH. External melody is excluded because Paul said sing and make melody in the heart. This is because only prostitutes and sodomites performed music in a pagan religious sense. One of the early apostostasies was to SING self-composed songs. The word PSALLO or melody is a CARNAL WARFARE word:

Psallô [psaô]
..I. to touch sharply, to pluck, pull, TWITCH, Aesch.; TOXOU neuran ps.
..to TWANG the bow-string, Eur.; belos ek keraos ps.
....to SEND a shaft TWANGING from the bow, Anth.; so, schoinos miltophurês psallomenê a
....carpenter's red line, which is twitched and then suddenly let go, so as to LEAVE a MARK,

Toxon means that it was made out of two pieces of horn joined together in the middle. This is why Paul calls them LIFELESS INSTRUMENTS which were CARNAL WEAPONS.

Apollo who had a SEEKER CENTER at Delphi was the father of musical harmony, twanging bowstrings to send singing arrows, thieves and liars. Apollo is the Abaddon or Apollyon of the Book of Revelation. He has come to release the LOCUSTS who were MUSES sent into hell. He looses them as a sudden SUPERNATURAL lust to get on board the FALSE MESSIAH's Bandwagon by forming MUSICAL WORSHIP TEAMS.

These are words of the following verse:

"And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having SEVEN heads (team members) and ten horns (points of power), and seven crowns (having WON the game) upon his heads. Revelation 12:3

"And I saw three unclean SPIRITS like FROGS (quacks) come out of the mouth of the dragon (called Sophia in Gnosticism), and out of the mouth of the beast (Called ZOE or Zao in Rev 16:3), and out of the mouth of the false prophet. Revelation 16:13

The BEAST as the NACHASH or musical enchanter in the garden of Eden is really described by a word meaning SIMIAN in nature. The false spirits are like frogs.

"For they are the SPIRITS of DEVILS, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to GATHER them to the BATTLE of that great day of God Almighty. Revelation 16:14

THE WORD: Daimon (g1142) dah'ee-mown; from daio, (to distribute FORTUNES); a doemon or supernatural spirit (of a bad nature): - devil

Donnie has collected a list including "christian" singers, musicians and writers who CONFESS that they made an act to SELL THEIR SOUL to the "god of fortune." No faithful believer can be a popular writer or musician.

Our word GOD is derived from GAD the god of fortunes.

The phrase: Belos ek keraos from Psallo above means:

belos [ballô, as Lat. jaculum from jacio]
..1. a MISSLE, esp. an ARROW, dart, bolt, Hom.; of the rock hurled by the Cyclops, Od.; of the ox's leg thrown at Ulysses, id=Od.; hupek beleôn out of the reach of darts, out of shot, Il.; so exô belôn Xen.
...2. like enchos, used of any WEAPON, as a sword, Ar.: an axe, Eur.

Paul spoke of LIFELESS INSTRUMENTS as well as Carnal Weapons. The word "hoplon" implicates musical instruments in CARNAL warfare. You are not called to CELEBRATE your sense but to engage in warfare against principalities and powers in heavenly places. They will just laugh at your "music" which has no history which is not pagan.

3. the agana belea of APOLLO and Artemis in Homer always denote the SUDDEN, EASY DEATH of men and women respectively.

[Apollo who has come to most churches has a TEAM of fallen angels who introduced music in the first fall. His use of the BOW as symbol of EXTERNAL HARMONY intends to SLAY SPIRITS by destroying the rational or spiritual side of the brain.]

4. after Hom. of anything SWIFT-darting,.. himerou belos the SHAFT of LOVE, id=Aesch.; of arguments, PAN tetoxeutai belos id=Aesch.

The end time PANS have a strong LUST and therefore MUSIC has always been the MARK of the effeminate whose shafts of love meant homosexuality. Sincerity does not matter: when the singy clappy boys come to town the IMAGE is that of a homosexual musician and that is why they FLEE. Their FLIGHT is a MARK of judgment "before their time."

Keras or HORN means means POWER but music has always been Satan's way of gaining power by ascending up above the Word of God:

..2. of MUSICAL INSTRUMENTS, a horn for blowing, Xen.: a flute, Luc.
..3. a drinking-horn, Xen.

keras (horns of the perverted Pan musicians) who LOOK TO THE HILLS

..1. BOW, toxon enôma

..2. of MUSICAL INSTRUMENTS, horn for BLOWING, sêmênai tôi kerati X.An.2.2.4 , cf. Arist.Aud.802a17; also, the Phrygian FLUTE, because it was tipped with horn
.
.6. MOUNTAINPEAK, extremities of the earth

Kero-batês [a^], ou, ho, ( [keras]) HORN-FOOTED, HOOFED, kerobatas PAN Ar.Ra.230 (lyr.): acc. to some Gramm., he that GOES with HORNS, i.e. the HORNED GOD; acc. to Sch., he that WALKS the MOUNTAIN-PEAKS (cf. keras v.6).

MUSIC AS PHALLIC POWER: THE TOP BILLY GOAT AT THE CREST OF THE MOUNTAIN. Unfortunately, most of the ALPHA MALE billy goats or PANS have to MOUNT a small CONQUEST.

You remember the little goat-footed Pan and his Pan pipe. He is often pictured ATTACKING other MALES with his apparatus all aglow. Music in the ancient religions had NO PURPOSE other than to grind someone into a fine powers which is the underlying meaning of MELODY like the SOP Jesus used to MARK Judas.

Read all of Revelation 12 written in symbolic LANGUAGE which could be understood only by recourse to the legends such as CIRCE whom we worship every time we say "church." Jesus built a synagogue and not a pagan worship center.

Music produces endorphins or MORPHIN WITHIN. It creates the effect of FIGHT, FLIGHT and SEXUALITY. When people are willing to CUNNINGLY DECEIVE to aquire more PAN GOAT POWER as Alpha Male, they LUST for music to produce the DRUG HIGH. This is TRAFFICKED as being "spiritual" when any literate Bible student knows that it INTENDS to stroke all of the pleasure center nerve endings. The SENSUOUS PLEASURE SENSATION which is billed in the people Rubel Shelly DITTOES, is called reaching a sexual climax: just before the final ACT which is giving of means.

The plan for minimizing the direct command of Jesus in baptism INTENDS to seduce people to their own plan for SAVING THEM. The music, as the end-time LOCUSTS (muses or musical performers) intends to SEDATE the people until they can be transported to hell from whence their spirits--from old--came.

Let's rehearse: the HORNS of the end time CHANGE AGENTS FROM HELL are not real mountains: they are the little pans trying to be big mountains and their CARNAL WEAPON is MUSICAL INSTRUMENTS.

Anyone who repudiates Baptism can never have read any of the evidence. And the lust to add MUSIC speaks directly to the GENDER bent if the Bible and all of history has any meaning.

Time is short.

 
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Kenneth Sublett
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63.84.81.58

The Arche, Beginning Point, of the gospel is baptism

October 12 2003, 9:53 AM 

WHAT IS THE GOSPEL?

The gospel is summarized as the Death, Burial and Ressurecton of Christ. However, this is not a CREED but it is a FORM OF DOCTRINE (Romans 6:17). The death, burial and ressurection was accepted by being baptized into Christ so that we are resurrected to a new life (Rom 6:3-4). The FORM means "style or resemblance, a model for imitation." This is all GRACE because our baptism means "INSTEAD OF." That means that we do not have to shed our own blood.

Because no human could be trusted, God sent His ARM as Jesus Christ. However, John would prepare the way by baptizing people in order that their sins be washed away. Malachi prophesied of John's baptism as the gospel:

"BEHOLD, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the WAY before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the Lord of hosts. Malachi 3:1

Human pride does not allow most people to confess wrong and ask for help. Malacih warned that Messiah would baptize with fire. For believers, He makes our "clothing" clean and the fuller's soap attracts and washes away the dirt in our hearts.

But who may abide (comprehend or receive) the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiners fire, and like FULLERS SOAP: Malachi 3:2

A fuller BAPTIZES or washes garments by getting into the LAVER. He is pictured as standing in a trough or tub and dipping the SOILED garment and making it new by stamping on it while under water

"Kabac (h3526) kaw-bas'; a prim. root; to trample; hence to wash (prop. by stamping with the feet), whether lit. (including the fulling process) or figurative - fuller, WASHING.

Only water baptism where we REQUEST a clear conscience fulfills that prophecy.

Bapto means "to WHELM, i.e. cover wholly with a fluid... or to stain as with dye, dip.

When paul summarized the gospel he used the word FIRST:

"For I delivered unto you FIRST of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 1Co.15:3

First, is PROTOS. It means the beginning, the best, the foremost in time.

As fulfillment of Malachi's promise, Mark says that the BEGINNING or CORNER or MOST IMPORTANT meaning of the GOSPEL begins with baptism. The word is ARCHE, the MOST IMPORTANT doctrine of the Gospel which allow us to receive the VALUE or meaning of the facts about Jesus Christ.

"THE beginning of the GOSPEL of Jesus Christ, the Son of God; Mark 1:1

....As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy WAY before thee. Mark 1:2

The WAY means a route, highway or PATTERN so that we can walk in the steps of Jesus.

"The voice (shouting) of one crying in the wilderness (a very lonely place), Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight (immediately). Mark 1:3

The gospel or "good news" was that those who believed and repented could just be baptized.

"John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. Mark 1:4

They were not baptized because their sins had already been remitted.

Many had looked for the SIGN of baptism as the good news or gospel that God was comming to them to remove their sins. This would give them A holy spirit or A clear conscience so that they could give heed to the Words of God. They would finally understand that God spoke to them through His Word.

"And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins. Mark 1:5

Baptism demanded that they repent and confess that they NEEDED to be made pure just like becomming a little child.

Faith gives us the POWER to become children of God but children were not ADOPTED until they were washed and given a new name.

"And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: Luke 24:46

"And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. Luke 24:47

When Christ returned in Spirit form as proven by the supernatural signs to the 12, Peter and the other 11 began preaching the HISTORY of Christ beginning in the Old Testament. Those who believed were not saved. Rather, they asked:

"Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, WHAT SHALL we DO? Acts 2:37

.."Then Peter said unto them, REPENT, and be BAPTIZED every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ FOR the remission of sins, and ye SHALL receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Acts 2:38

Those whose human pride will not allowe them to be baptized want to have FAITH in a corner. This means that THEY are saved without the gift of A holy spirit, without repentance as well a without baptism

Jesus had commanded the Apostles to go out into the world and preach the SAME GOSPEL. Jesus shows that the FIRST response to the preached GOSPEL was BAPTISM. Those who did not belive did not obey and were therefore damned. They had rejected the counsel of God for their lives by REFUSING baptism.

Ken Sublett taking the message into my world.

 
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scott reinhardt
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67.32.39.130

Prayer

October 16 2003, 12:15 PM 

My prayers are with you...

 
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Kenneth Sublett
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63.84.81.48

Max Lucado infects Hohenwald

October 18 2003, 8:42 AM 

Among some I know to question Max Lucado or Rubel Shelly is like slapping their wife.

It is clear that Max Lucado, having imbibed Spiritists voodoo in Brazil and now cross polinating it there as the Family of God and sowing discord, is the ONE to whom many, virtually Bible illiterate people, honor above the Word and the Living Word.

A key operative in Brazil sponsored by MAX (since the STAFF makes the decisions) is Dennis Downing. Dennis knows that he cannot BUY AND SELL without the MARK of MAX moves from a once solid basis to BOWING by proclaiming the new BLASPHEMY of Just Jesus (and Our new REVELATION).

http://www.piney.com/Dennis.Downing.html

One observer of Oak Hills, Max Lucado and the DITTO HEADS repudiating Christ and His word notes: "Hence, one can predict based on Paul's life and model what Christians who emulate Paul will do and will become. Relative to "churches of Christ," there are a number of influences at work. One influence that continues is the influence of liberalism and progression. John warns of becoming progressive when he wrote: "Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God…" (2 Jn. 9). According to some of the better manuscripts, the verb translated transgresseth is proago. W. E. Vine simply comments on proago as follows: "…To lead forth…In 2 John 9…(marg., 'taketh the lead') the R. V. renders it 'goeth onward…of not abiding in the doctrine of Christ" (Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words). Many consider the Oak Hills Church as the model for digression within churches of Christ."

http://www.bibletruths.net/Archives/BTAR268.htm

It fits the PATTERNISM to put a focus on RESCUING FAMILIES AND MARRIAGES, but Paradoxically Predictable, at the same time their Satan-like "wearing out of the saints" actually drives a wedge between faithful husbands and wives. Women of the CHANGE AGENDA have been known to preassure the "MUSIC DRIVEN rejecting of the Bible and turn to effeminate entertainment" wives to divorce their Bible believing husbands.

Women or effeminate males will always be the driving force of a "worship" service which creates FIGHT, FLIGHT and SEXUALITY as the most fulfilling moments of their drab lives. Isaiah warning that "women and children will rule over you" meant WOMEN AND THE EFFEMINATE who CANNOT BEAR to enter into dialog with a MASCULINE God." Karen Armstrong, A History of God

Remember that coming out of ACU is a change agenda like the FEMINIST AGENDA which changes "by little acts of TREASON." The purpose is to REJECT the PATRIARCHAL God who is FATHER AND SON rather than MOTHER AND GOD.

When you turn to performance "music" by the singy-clappy guys or PLANT a musical worship team in the audience to CHARISMATE them into a sexual experience, you are worshiping the MOTHER GODDES (Eve,ZOE, Inanna the Babylon harlot) and all of her daughters who lust to be seen in performance. They are absolutely sure that they LEAD YOU into the presence and therefore TRIUMPH OVER Lord Jesus Christ as the ONE AND ONLY Masculine Mediator. It is prophesied: it is in the book.

 
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Confused Sacred Cow
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Who is Max Lucado and who is slapping who's wife?

October 22 2003, 6:33 PM 

You're confusing me Ken.

You wrote, "You must advise the elders that you will not PAY for the youth minister because that is where most of the division is coming from. They are fueled from men like Max Walling who is advising the youth ministers that they might have to get out of the church of Christ if they cannot make changes."

Who is Max Lucado?

And is he or is he not advising youth ministers to slap their wives?

Or are there elders advising youth ministers to slap their wives?

 
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Sarcasic Sacred Cow
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Remember...

October 22 2003, 9:21 PM 

"Remember that coming out of ACU is a change agenda like the FEMINIST AGENDA which changes "by little acts of TREASON." The purpose is to REJECT the PATRIARCHAL God who is FATHER AND SON rather than MOTHER AND GOD."

Should I add fuel to the fire by telling you that I'm a product of a "CHRISTIAN EDUCATION". You probably already guessed. Right? Don't you think that combining the two are dangerous...I mean your analogy that is...those who come out of ACU, DLU, or where ever and those in the Feminist Agengda.

I mean now I've rejected all that you stand for and someone has slapped my wife. Does Jeff Shelly stand for such a thing? Do the feminists approve? Man, I can't do anything right.(Actually not all that you stand for) - you see, you're more concerned about being right than saving souls. We both serve and adhere to the same God.

Does this reak with sarcasm? Are you gettting the hint? You're not being taken seriously, nor will you.

 
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Cathy
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Re: Hohenwald Church of Christ, Hohenwald, TN

November 13 2003, 4:07 PM 

Mr. Sublett, for several months I have been reading (at least trying to) your posts on concerned members and have look at your piney info. It is obvious that you are a very intelligent person and have done your research, but I have trouble understanding exactly what you are trying to say sometimes. My question is: are you saying all music is sinful, even music outside the church service?, are you saying "4 part Fanny" as you describe it, is wrong in the church and where do you attend church? If you are right about music, and other things, then NO church of Christ, or any other church that I know of is worshipping in the new testament way. That would make the traditionalists just as wrong as the contemporaries. How do YOU worship?

 
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Kenneth Sublett
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63.84.81.21

Re: Hohenwald

November 14 2003, 11:58 AM 

No, I have always associated my comments about "music"with its use in a religious sense. However, it is often the professional or otherwise highly gifted singers and players who will often try to slip their "talent" into the "worship." Worship is ONLY in the new PLACE of the human spirit as it gives heed to the Word which is the Spirit OF truth: the mind of Christ. Worship "in spirit" does not mean with a certain attitude which some define as "exhilarating" to the sowing of discord among those who rarely see modern musicians as "talented."

Even David sang the psalms (on his bed) and GAVE HEED to the spiritual content. His "worship" in the Psalms is identical to Paul's command. This was NEVER to sing in a musical sense. Paul's direct command was to SPEAK which is the same as PREACH to one another. In Romans 15 the way to imitate Christ would be to NOT create spiritual excitement (meaning to please). Paul said that they should use THAT WHICH IS WRITTEN. The purpose was to TEACH AND ADMONISH one another as the way to GLORIFY God rather than human composers who CANNOT compose either hymns, psalms or spiritual songs: these are all classes of metrical material in the Old testament. They were to speak WITH ONE MIND and ONE VOICE and not to sing in the modern sense.

One of the first heresies which SOWED DISCORD in churches who called themselves the church of Christ was human compositions. These were "inspired" at times to do literal battle with the Arians who discovered that they could best deny Christ by writing their own songs.

When the Campbells left the Presbyterians it was the Presbyterians who repudiated instruments and songs other than the paraphrased Psalms of Watts, etc. Many are still faithful. Alexander Campbell had a "song book" (I have seen his copy) with no notes but this was to keep from taking an unlawful wage from the young churches.

I don't know "how much we can bend the Word before it breaks." However, I do know several things with absolute certainty:

The MUSIC word is never said to contribute any spiritual value to a group. History is clear that singing was a very old superstition as well as the way in which the TRIBAL LEADER (Alpha Male) forced all members to be UNITED and to honor the top billy goat (Pan the Beast in Revelation: His "horns" are musical instruments to help him hold his "mountain.")

I know that every musical term or name of an instrument (often Greek) speaks of innocent children's games, fertility rituals, weapons of prostitutes and Sodomites and to tell God: "WE WILL NOT LISTEN TO YOUR WORD." Lucifer is said to have brought wind, string and percussion instruments into the garden of Eden. The serpent is the Naga or Nachash: a musical enchanter. As the king/queen of Tyre he/she was called "the singing and harp playing prostitute." Paul said that the "serpent" wholly seduced Eve in the sense that Adam had second choice. That is why CAIN, meaning a musical note, is said to be OFF that wicked one. His descendants learned how to manipulate people so that you could sell them their own cows.

ALL churches of Christ violate the CORE meaning of the Assembly which is not "church" but Ekklesia. The word Synagogue is also a Greek word. The synagogue of the Jews had "no praise services" because it was a SCHOOL OF THE BIBLE and for community prayer. This is why the end times enemies of Christ and His WORDS have deliberately made us all Biblically crippled. Furthermore, because the QUALITY of the unlawful preaching and singing VALIDATES the leaders as community leaders, the members live in mortal fear of loosing approval from the cult leader. If he allowed the WORDS of Christ to be taught or sung they would have a complete knowledge of the PROSE Old Testament history. Cult leaders WILL NOT TOLERATE the teaching of the word "as it has been taught."

Thomas Campbell forcefully states that the meaning of "worship" is to assemble to read and study the WORD and muse or mediate on similar passages. He said that "church" was A SCHOOL OF CHRIST.

This is not legalism but a pragmatic fact. If you sing in the EXHILARATED sense you are doing what instruments do: creating the impulses of fight, flight and sexuality. Nimrod at the towers of Babylon knew that and had his worship team and proposed to "regenerate people through external means."

Melody is NOT a musical term: Apollo or Abaddon or apollyon in the Classics and the book of Revelation were SERVED by the MUSES or musicians. In the legends John knew about and used to CODE the book, the MUSES failed in their worship of the MOTHER OF THE GODS under Apollyon. She sentenced them into the underground. Apollo in Revelation releases them for the END TIMES. This form of locust was known as musical performers. They had scorpion stings in their tail and were expert at putting people to sleep.

Melody is directly related to Apollo who was the 'father' of musical harmony from twanging the bowstring to send a SINGING arrow into your literal heart. He was also the father of THIEVES and LIARS. When people decide that the GOAL of the church is to WORSHIP they usually mean something performed FOR them. "Groups" actually claim to replace the MEDIATING work of Jesus Christ. They intend, according to the Purpose Driven Cult, to shut down Biblical teaching and make the church into a "theater for holy entertainment." The intention is never to teach doctrine to the children but to MAKE THEM HAPPY so mommy and daddy will return and be ENABLERS of the legalistic "law of giving." They often have every intention of DIVERTING your hard money into a new church which you oppose. Sounds criminal to me.

Melody as "tunefulness belongs to the 19th century." The Britannica. History agrees with this and no one will find any Biblical or historical argument against it: they JUST MAKE IT UP to keep your mind nailed to the floor while they TAKE YOU CAPTIVE. They DO NOT believe that the Bible is inspired. Charles Spurgeon claims that the lowest life in existence is one who takes pay from a congregation but does not believe what they believe. But, the father of musical harmony is the father of thieves and liars.

EXTERNAL

 
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Kenneth Sublett
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63.84.81.110

Re: Hohenwald Part 2

November 17 2003, 12:03 PM 

The Bible does not recognize a RITUAL called singing: Jesus died to remove both the burden and the burden laders. The burden is defined as "spiritual anxiety created by religious ritual." The REST Jesus died to give mankind was to quarantine people from pagan rituals just as God's REST one out of seven days was to quarantine people from RELIGION which was sabbaterian and ritual infested. If you just REST God keeps you away from destructive rituals.

No one can read the Bible and say that Paul commanded SINGING in the first instance. He commanded teaching and admonishing, using "that which is written, the Spirit or the Word of Christ."

WE are the "man" who put a stumbling block in the front of everyone when we turned from Thomas Campbell's SCHOOL OF CHRIST to "organum" singing to LEGALISTICALLY sing but not have machines to do our praising. A few years ago Satan's little agents told everyone and just about everyone believed that the "goal" of the church is to WORSIP where worship meant to EVERYONE to sing the sexually stimulating praise songs to actuall CHANGE the brain hard wiring so that it lost its ability to focus for a few moments to listen to Christ in song and sermon without, like little children, butting in.

Just as we teach that only God can inspired Scripture for our learning, John Calvin taught that no human can compose Psalms, Hymns and Spiritual songs able to praise an infinite, Spiritual God. Philo and lots of others understood that the Psalms were to be TAUGHT so that the true singing and melody can be IN THE HEART (as Paul insisted) rather than an audible group singing their ROTE lessons.

"...Philo of Alexandria had already emphasized the ethical qualities of music, spurning the 'effeminate' art of his Gentile surroundings. Similarly, early synagogue song intentionally foregoes ARTISTIC perfection, renounces the playing of instruments, and attaches itself entirely to THE WORD--the TEXT of the Bible" (Encyclopaedia Judaica, 1971 ed., s.v. "Music")

"Already at the end of the second century the Byzantine, Syrian, and later the Armenian church showed a marked preference for new, nonscriptural hymns, despite all warnings by the catholic authorities. Even Canon 59 of the Council of Laodicea (360-81), which expressly prohibited nonscriptural texts, was constantly circumvented and openly violated, as enormous hymn literature of the Eastern churches demonstrate." (The Int. Std. Bible Dict., p. 467)

"The Ambrosian chant, with notes of unequal duration, has more the character of a RECITIVE...Ecclesiastical chant, departing in some instances from the simple majesty of its original character, became more ARTISTIC, and on this account, less heavenly and more profane..." (Alzog, Universal Church History, Vol. I., pp. 696, 697).

"Church music, which at the outset consisted mainly of the SINGING of the PSALMS, flourished especially in Syria and at Alexandria. The music was very simple in its character." (George Park Fisher, History of The Christian Church, pp. 65, 121).

"The basis of Christian ecclesiastical music was in vocal character. It was the PRAYER of the community sung by the people" (History of Catholic Church Music, p. 13).

"The popular song was almost certainly limited in compass to a very few notes repeated over and over in long recitations or ballads" (Int. Std. Bible Ency., Song, p. 2431).

"In the first ages the psalms were sung by the whole assembly standing; after the fourth century the practice was introduced by St. Ambrose from the east was adopted in the west, by which the psalms were sung in alternate chant by the congregation, divided into two choirs. The melodies in which they were sung were simple, almost RECITVE; but, at the end of the fourth century, a more artificial song was introduced into some churches as in that of Milan" (J.J. Ignatius Dollinger, History of the Church, Vol. II., pp. 307-308).

"In GNOSTIC circles religious poetry arose to compete with the Old Testament Psalms. Some Catholics therefore distrusted the composition of hymns after this pattern, on the ground that they might smack of heresy. Yet from at least the second century hymns were written by the orthodox which, like their Gnostic counterparts, employed the forms of Greek poetry...Until near the end of the fourth century, in the services of the Catholic Church only the Old Testament Psalms and the hymns or canticles from the New Testament were sung: the other hymns were for personal, family, or private use. Gradually there were prepared versical paraphrases of the Psalms, hymns with lines of equal length, and hymns which were acrostic." (Latourette, p. 207).

"The Arians and other HERETICS embodied their doctrines in verses to be sung." (antiphonally). (George Park Fisher, History of The Christian Church, pp. 65, 121).

"In the Arian struggle the use of hymns other than psalms grew common, and was furthered in the West with great success by Ambrose of Milan" (Williston Walker, A History of the Christian Church, p. 167).

"But considerable prominence was given to hymns by the Gnostic, Bardesanes, who composed 150 psalms. However, the 59th canon of the Synod of Laodicea, 360 AD, enjoined that 'No psalm composed by private individuals nor any uncanonical books may be read in the church, but only...the Canonical Books of the OT and NT." (Int Std. Bible Ency., Psalm, p. 2494a).

Do I expect to change those who sing with HARMONY which is more violently destructive to the mind than simple external MELODY of the first century? Not in the least. Not any more than I exect people to cast out their MUSICAL IDOLS both human and mechanical. Do I expect people to give up their "blue book"? Not in the slightest. When people FALL in the musical sense both the Bible and ancient documents make it certain that they will never back down.

Ken

 
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Kenneth Sublett
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63.84.81.97

Thief on the Cross VS thief in the pulpit

November 18 2003, 3:41 PM 

The local "infiltrated plant" with blood still dripping from his new SHEEP'S SKIN believes that because WE cannot say how God will SAVE the unbelieving and unbaptized, WE must accept all "sincere" people into full fellowship. However, the denominations with which they have cozy feelings will NEVER give up baptism BECAUSE they were saved without it. If you were baptized IN ORDER TO THE REMISSION of sins you are a CULTISTS according to Baptists. YOU have never had the HIGH FIVE from God that you are one of the SELECT FEW; you have never experienced a supernatural sign, you have never had JESUS personally (or you have not BECOME JESUS) to die for YOUR SINS, then YOU will never be accepted in full fellowship until YOU conform. Paul said that FOOLS love to be FOOLED. THEREFORE, the urge to SAVE people where Jesus has not WASHED them is a CUNNINGLY CRAFTY way to move YOUR church into becoming a BAPTIST church or a charismatic church.

The example of the SAVED thief on the cross "TRUMPS the rest of the Bible and church history." Therefore, this is a DISHONEST way to try to weazel in their false dogma without getting FIRED for being a traitor to Christ and them "wot feeds them."

---Max Lucado writes: "With the exception of the thief on the cross, there is no example of an unbaptized believer.

However, the thief on the cross believed, like the apostles, that Christ would set up an EARTHLY KINGDOM. Therefore, the thief did not believe that Jesus was God Incarnate and had no evidence to suspect that His kingdom was to be in the human heart and not earthly. He did not know anything about the meaning of the gospel as Jesus Christ fulfilling God's purpose to save souls. Baptism is into discipleship to Jesus among the living. Jesus commanded baptism as part of making a disciple to Himself as the master teacher. Therefore, the thief was not baptized into discipleship.

Since the thief on the cross was said to be placed by Jesus in the position of all of the DEAD who would get a chance to hear the gospel, he is NOT an exception to anything.

...Max Lucado exults: "The thief on the cross, however, is a crucial exception. His conversion drives DOGMATISTS crazy.

It also drives crazy people dogmatic. Max Lucado is willing to be deceived into find ONE hallucinated exception and on that repudiates the Bible as it has been taught until Zwingli. This leads to teaching as DOGMA, CREED and a new PATTERNISM that you (who didn't die on a cross for your own sins) can REPUDIATE the direct command of Jesus. If it is a rule that he that jumpeth off a tall building shall die, these people are willing to teach people that YOU CAN'T PROVOE THAT EVERYONE WHO JUMPS DIES. Therefore, YOU have no right to warn people not to jump off tall buildings.

That the thief was "CONVERTED" is just postmodern psychobabble for the "obsolete" Bible. There is no evidence that the thief was converted. Luke by the Holy Spirit draws a parallelism between being BAPTIZED and being CONVERTED. Because the thief believed that Jesus was special and that he understood that Jesus was going to BUILD A KINGDOM he wanted to be remembered. But listen to the mother of the OTHER sons of thunder:

"Then came to him the mother of Zebedees children with her sons, worshipping him, and desiring a certain thing of him. Matt 20:20
.."And he said unto her, What wilt thou? She saith unto him, Grant that these my two sons may sit, the one on thy right hand, and the other on the left, in thy kingdom. Matt 20:21
...."But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able. Matt 20:22

Now look at the thief on the cross:

"And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us. Luke 23:39
.."But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation? Luke 23:40
...."And we indeed JUSTLY; for we receive the DUE REWARD of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss. Luke 23:41

The Thief never said that he believed that Jesus was the Christ the Son of God. Therefore, he MADE no saving confession. He asked for no FORM of crucifixion to ESCAPE his own cross. He didn't asked to be SAVED or CONVERTED. He didn't even ask Jesus to forgive His sins: he would have thought of asking a HUMAN dying on the cross for forgiveness of sins as blasphemy.

.."And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. Luke 23:42

Of course, Jesus didn't answer the question as was His custom when there was no need for "theology."

..."And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with ME in paradise. Luke 23:43

The kingdom would not begin until the KING and PRIEST sat down on ONE throne. Therefore, paradise IS NOT THE KINGDOM of Christ. Therefore, appealing to a THIEF rather than the SAVIOR for evidence of salvation means that they are ignorant of the meaning of the kingdom and evil for suggesting that Christ's kingdom was in the netherworld where both good and evil resided until the resurrection.

The thief on the cross was a thief. He confessed that he was a thief. He did not know what he was asking.

Jesus promised that he would be in paradise or a park- like place that was pleasant.

The thief on the cross WAS crucified: He WAS baptized with the same "suffering and death." He died for HIS OWN SINS although that could not redeem him.

IF YOU WHINE ABOUT THE THIEF ON THE CROSS, THE FURTHER EVIDENCE OF THOSE THAT "BELIEVETH NOT," AND ARE NOT BAPTIZED MEANS THAT YOU DO NOT ACCEPT CHRIST AS YOUR "INSTEAD OF." You don't even repent FOR forgiveness.

Baptism is a FORM of that baptism of suffering and death. The "form" means anti-type or INSTEAD OF dying on the cross like the thief on the cross.

The TRUE Max often ooozes to the surface as we note again: "The thief on the cross, however, is a crucial exception. His conversion drives dogmatists crazy."

An EXCEPTION to the RULE proves the RULE. If Max accepts that the thief is an EXCEPTION then he confesses that baptism IN ORDER TO REMISSION OF SINS is the rule laid down by Jesus, practiced and commanded by the Apostles and until the Baptist got led astray by Zwingli who said that HE was the EXCEPTION out of 1525 years of church history.

Those who rest their faith on the THIEF should present themselves to the nearest barn to be nailed to it for THEIR OWN SINS, not under OUR ROCK but under the "SEE ROCK CITY" sign. By THEIR PRESUMPTIOUS offering "grace" to those who deliberately disobey the direct commandment of Christ, people deprive themselves of grace. Otherwise, how could one INFILTRATE in order to DIVERT a church and sow massive discord just for a paycheck from the will of a dead, crippled widow?

At the same time, the local god-like urge to SAVE people without their obeying the direct command of Jesus proves the depth of ignorance and false teaching coming out of the once-christian colleges most of which have been TAKEN CAPTIVE until Jesus comes. This will be the MARK Jesus gives when hiring an unlawful "gospel-less preacher."

Nothing is so evil as disloyalty. Charles Spurgeon says in effect that it is the BOTTOM OF THE BARREL of evil when you RIDE the backs of widows and then drive them away in deadly tears by INFILTRATING and DIVERTING. We detest the Judas Goats of the end times who are described as the BEASTS with ten horns: the pan pipes all musical.

Purpose Driven Cultists agree with malice aforethought that they will lose almost half of THEIR congregation in the interest of joining with the Baptists and Church of God to "evangelize" for some kind "Christ" who is not the one in the Bible. Since NEITHER of the cultists "evangelize" this is just another sign of the end-times when people flee to the ROCKS to save them. But, Paul warned to STAY AWAY FROM CROWDS and be "outside the city or walls" in order to find Jesus.

See the gospel most know nothings are following:

http://www.piney.com/Max-Lucado-Thief-on-Cross.html

Ken Sublett

 
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B. David Thomas
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12.147.224.27

Who are you?

November 19 2003, 9:54 AM 

Good morning Mr. Sublett,

I was just curious to know exactly where you attend worship? I'd also be interested in knowing what your qualifications are for offering the criticisms which you seem to so liberally espouse? Any response will most appreciated.

Thank you,
David Thomas

 
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Why?
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24.158.146.95

Why?

December 1 2003, 10:32 PM 

Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.
Romans 14:13

And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
Matthew 7:3

Please stop judging us.

 
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Kenneth Sublett
(no login)
63.84.81.14

Who?

December 2 2003, 10:39 AM 

I have answered direcly to the question. However, I have been a member of the Hohenwald Church of Christ for about ten years after retiring back here. I left in 1950 to "make the world safe for communism" in 1950. Turns out, what we thought to be futile risks turned out to make us winners after the evil collapsed.

I have been BAITED and SWITCHED out of a large dollar ammount after being warned many times. Hohenwald has been DISSOCIATED as they say first by the Jubilee, then Promise Keepers and now the Purpose Driven Cult. From a high of close to 350 their "great leap forward" has them less than 200 and people fleeing every day. The self-selected elders DO NOT believe what churches of Christ believe. Therefore, in the words of Charles Spurgeon, this makes them beyond the pale of ethics and Christian conduct as they COLLECT and DIVERT the residuals of a dead, crippled widow and the "church house of living widows who flee in tears." This is Satanic.

The are not free thinkers but have been taken captive by the likes of Rubel Shelly who cannot speak the Bible STRAIGHT. He speaks of a FAMILY or COMMUNE church and claims that REPENTANCE does not lead to baptism but to a "GUSHING FORTH OF THE HOLY SPIRIT PERSON." Well, easy test: Jesus and Paul or Rubel Shelly a latter day prophet with NEW GLASSES to get a NEW VISION for the church. Lynn Anderson is another Messiah who promotes the Shepherding or Discipling dilema out of San Antonio. And Max Lucado also from the "Alamo" who just had the STAFF hire a DISCIPLING MINISTER. Lucado brought Spiritism from Brazil and is heading up the missions in Brazil to cross infect the churches of Christ. Rubel Shelly boasts that Max Lucado picked him up recently at the airport in a LIMO. Sure, he was in San Antonio just to see the ALAMO.

COMMERCE or TRAFFICKING leaders who TAKE OVER the "spiritual rule" cannot help but introduce the same COMMERCIAL schemes into the church. They are biblically illiterate and will not tolerate anyone who knows more about the Bible than they do.

I became a shut in with all of my glands failing so I cannot attend right now.

Ken Sublett

 
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Evan Duncan
(no login)
204.30.60.43

Re: Who?

December 3 2003, 10:38 PM 

Mr Sublett
Become a shut in and say the things you say about God's church and God's people. Pardon the comment but who are you to judge the way we worship our Creator, our Lord, and our God? Get your act and your glands straightened up before you will one day face the judgment of God like we all will and reap truly what you sow.

Evan Duncan

 
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Jim Leary
(Login faithalone)
207.65.228.42

The thief

February 2 2004, 10:04 PM 

If the thief on the cross did not need baptism to be saved then how did he get to paradise? Christ knew his heart and He knew the thief had faith. Christ, Himself, gave him the gift of faith. Faith in Christ alone saves. Baptism is done out of obedience to the command given by our Lord. It is reflecting the ability and desire to obey God. It is a symbol of the inward change of heart that the Lord has performed. What if someone repents and professes and is struck and killed by lightning and didn't get baptized? Was he saved? Not by your standards. You don't know the heart. Baptism is one of the first good works we do as a believer. Become a disciple and THEN be baptized.

"It is finished." Nothing added, nothing taken away. Christ alone, by faith in Him alone! Then come the good works by Christ strength, not mine or yours which are filthy rags. If Christ atoning work on the cross needs my baptism to seal it then it it is not all of Christ. It would be our partnership. Hogwash!
Only He alone can save and nothing I add helps. He, the Soveriegn Lord of the Universe, saves. All I can do repent and submit my will to his and then praise Him!

Eph 2:8-9, you know it well, "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works(not baptism), lest any man should boast.

Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through FAITH in his , to declare his righteousness for the REMISSION of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Rom 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which BELIEVETH in Jesus.

Baptism?????????where?

Romans 6 is a physical picture of a spiritual transaction that GOD did to the believer.

Don't get the work of your baptism mix up with the finished work of Jesus Christ.

Brother I pray that God opens your eyes to this wonderful truth.
Jim

 
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...........................THE BOOK

What Happened At the Madison Church of Christ?


There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

To even start to understand whats happening here, you must read the background materials in the first of the book.

This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our web site; http://www.concernedmembers.com/madison

Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)
 

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