I received an email that helped me link to this site. I was not surprised when I read this to see that this is exactly what is happening with us here. Our elders don't even talk to us. They just listen to some young preachers who think they rode in on a white horse. All these young people should just go start their own church and quit trying to steal mine.

is this christ speaking? The church belongs to christ.

Who's church is it? Yours? I can see where the problem lies in your church...sounds like you should fix your hard heart before placing blame on other people.

"Can I sit on your right and him on your left, Jesus?"

I just listened to a tape of the Westgate preacher when he covered the biblical doctrine of election. WOW! He is right on and does not wash over the controversy but hit is square. My observation after being in a congregation that teaches this as well is that it will either transform this church or divide it in two. I pray that the transformation occurs because it has been such a blessing to my life and has changed me completely.

God bless this church!!!

Hello,



My name is Eric Greer and I serve as one of the ministers at the Westgate Church of Christ. By no means are we a perfect bunch of people but by the grace of God through Jesus we make every effort to bring glory to Him. I first noticed the thread regarding our local congregation some time ago. I decided in the interest of peace to not get over alarmed and make a big stir about it. While I was concerned, I felt the best course of action was to work on my personal walk with Jesus and see if there is any offensive way in me (Psalm 139:24). It didn’t take much personal examination to see that I could do much more to serve the body and much less to work at serving me. I’m pretty sure that any honest Christian could echo those words. Yes we did go through some changes in the last couple of years and yes there were some people who did not like those changes. For that I am very sorry. I certainly wish no ill toward my brothers and sisters in Christ. But I do not believe that I can be held responsible for how another person chooses to act in response to how he or she feels. That is their decision and their responsibility. Not incidentally, I would like to add that there has not been a split or division in this body and that we continue to work together even when we don’t agree on every point which I believe is a hallmark of a healthy family. I guess one of the more “controversial” things that occurred here was my support of and help in implementation of a small group ministry that meets in homes one Sunday night a month. This was not a unanimously popular choice but has through time proven to be an effective tool to begin building up the fellowship here and serve as evangelistic outposts. Not everyone participates in this and that is certainly fine but our shepherds are supportive of the effort and see it as a plus to our ministry. I am reminded of a statement by a wonderful Christian warrior, Brother Ira North, “Everybody has their say, nobody gets their way, All the time.” I’m sure we don’t do that perfectly either but are striving to do better each and every day. Since the thread about the Westgate Church of Christ began our preacher – a good friend and one of the best students of God’s Word I have ever known – has gone to another work. I would like to add a note about him because one of the notes on the thread references his preaching on the doctrine of election. I had the good fortune to study this subject with him and found him to be very balanced and Biblical. Certainly he would not be a type of preacher who, “would divide a church in two.” Whoever made that post did not know the spirit of my friend. The remark would seem to infer that my friend was preaching predestination and in fact that is what the Bible teaches in Ephesians 1 and elsewhere but the inference seemed to me to suggest that he was teaching Reform theology or Calvinism which he was not. Nor would any of our seven elders say that he was doing so. What I know about my friend’s teaching is that it is Biblical and that he is invited by many congregations to preach and teach God’s word. Some of those congregations might be considered conservative and some could be considered liberal by those who choose to place labels on a whole congregation of people – which is absurd. My point is that he is a great teacher and is welcomed by many to share his thoughts derived from diligent study. My hope is that this brief note will “exonerate” our congregation and that whoever administers this website would consider removing this thread. I don’t believe that it serves the interests of the body of Christ to post such things especially when they are from anonymous sources. While I don’t share all of the same convictions that some of the “Concerned Members” on this website hold I am glad to be a part of the Church of Christ and serve in His kingdom alongside any who would lift Him up. I am not ashamed in the least of my heritage in the restoration movement and am glad to share the message of non-denominational Christianity with all. If you do not choose to remove the thread in the interest of peace I would like to have this email appended to the thread.



In Him

Eric Greer

Eric: The remark would seem to infer that my friend was preaching predestination and in fact that is what the Bible teaches in Ephesians 1 and elsewhere but the inference seemed to me to suggest that he was teaching Reform theology or Calvinism which he was not.

Eric, most of the responders have been RUN OVER by preachers who believe that they have a mandate to MAKE CHANGES troubling or not. MY thesis is that the Bible, universal church history and early Restoration EVANGELISTS utterly repudiate the notion of a hired ruling class who apparently needs to SILENCE any questioning. That is what the mass exodus from churches is all about.

Because "someone" has dared to "question God's annointeds" you have the chance to explain what is troubling in Zion and just what you mean about Ephesians 1 teaching PREDESTINATION. That IS Calvinism if it has ANYTHING to do with an individual's selection by God. The better Greek view would be to "call" or "invite" as in the ekklesia which is NOT a worship center but a synagogue or School of the Bible where JESUS invites us personally to "come learn of ME." Sermonizing and music leaders were two of the earliest heresies.

This would be your chance to advance up the hierarchy because Family Life doesn't appear in Ephesians 4. Just explain what you mean and you won't have to worry about people who refuse to allow "youngers" to rule the church and steal their childrens HEALT CARE FUND. The RISING VOTE is repudiating the Law of Tithing, the Law of Giving, the Law of Preaching, or the Law of SINGING "four part Twila Paris."

If your staff infection is NOT deliberately sowing discord and offending people then you should tell us how you are ALMOST UNIQUE. My experience and the cults such as Purpose Driven or Willow Creek etal is that little groups are normally set up to exercise BETTER CONTROL over the group. Those precious, private confessions have a way of getting on the STAFF'S ledger if you can believe Erasmus.

You have nothing to fear but fear itself. Ken answering because God has give me and your "questioners" the OBLIGATION to test the spirits and given YOU "nothing at all" according to Alexander Campbell.

Ken,

It would seem Eric has already provided an explanation which you quote at the beginning of your post:

“The remark would seem to infer that my friend was preaching predestination and in fact that is what the Bible teaches in Ephesians 1 and elsewhere but the inference seemed to me to suggest that he was teaching Reform theology or Calvinism which he was not.”

You seem to either be saying he (or the other “preacher”) was disingenuous or you dislike the KJV translation of Ephesians 1:5—
Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, (Ephesians 1:5, KJV).

The man said Reformed theology or Calvinism was not being taught. Thank you for providing a definition of what Calvinism “IS”. Now we know what he was not teaching.

I'll regret even having brought this up later but reviewing some posts on this site reveals many of the regulars have, at best, a jaundiced view of what is being done in most small groups. Some of the assertions would be laughable if it were not for the discord caused by the misinformation provided here.

God bless.

Joe

The cry from help we often hear from shepherds who are gnawing their bones and REFUSE to discuss the plans. Elders have the preaching-teaching role of "teaching that which has been taught" and "refuting those who oppose it." If you have PROCURED yourself a YOUNGER you are violating the Word of God and you will get hurt real bad:

I received an email that helped me link to this site. I was not surprised when I read this to see that this is exactly what is happening with us here. Our elders don't even talk to us. They just listen to some young preachers who think they rode in on a white horse. All these young people should just go start their own church and quit trying to steal mine.

This proves that a whole bunch of lambs too COWED to bleet have decided NOT to bleed anymore.

An Ear witness wrote with the typical REJOICING over sowing of discord.

What a preacher! November 26 2003, 12:33 PM

I just listened to a tape of the Westgate preacher when he covered the biblical doctrine of election. WOW! He is right on and does not wash over the controversy but hit is square. My observation after being in a congregation that teaches this as well is that it will either transform this church or divide it in two.

There IS no controversy to the Bible literate not conferted perhaps by LU.

Rhetoricians are identified in the Greek world as one of the SECTARIAN breed of hypocrites. Rhetoricians, sOPHISts (serpents), singers, musicians and craftsmen (theater builders and stage managers) performed the role of SORCERERS and were universally known as PARASITES.

If the young USURPING preacher is preaching ELECTION which might DIVIDE a church of Christ, then no wonder that a DELIBERATELY DISCORDED member cries for help. If there is one who DARES sass "god's annointeds" then you can be sure that you are on the road of churches like Smith's Springs in Nashville divided down the middle by a Calvinist professor at Lipscomb.

I didn't ATTEMPT to explain Calvinism but perhaps this is the time and place for people to begin to INFORM your "captives" to keep them from accepting the most evil dogma ever invented: even Calvin says that YOU WILL GAG ON CALVINISM.

The ELECT are the CALLED OUT: that is why the church Jesus promised to build is an EKklessia, a synagogue, a school of the Bible and NOT a pagan worship center.

Predestination does not appear in the Old Testament so we need to look at the Greek and Latin:

Praedstino , a-re, to set before as a goal, predestine: sibi triumphos,

The word ELECT means to INVITE: All are ELECTED but few are CHOSEN. Therefore, the final ELECT will be a tiny remnant.

This is a CALL AND RESPONSE God ELECTS or invites us even though we are not RIGHTEOUS. Those predestinated in most of Paul's writings are the GENTILES. God predestinated that the Gentiles would be on an equal footing with Jews who BELIEVED that they were PREDESTINATED and could not be lost (Romans 9)

Our RESPONSE is to CALL upon the name of the Lord which happens ONLY at baptism.

I don't think you have a "younger" sowing discord who has EVER read Augustine or Calvin: perhaps because he was trained at ACU to be a "Prophet, Chaneller and Facilitator" to go out and MAKE the changes based on being DRUNK ON IGNORANCE.

Proana-psĂŞphizĂ´ ,
A. determine beforehand, J.AJ18.8.2(Pass.).

I will, therefore, send to Caius, and let him know what your resolutions are, and will assist your suit as far as I am able, that you may not be exposed to suffer on account of the honest designs you have proposed to yourselves; and may God be your assistant,

I know that SMALL GROUPS or PRAYER CIRCLES was the breeding ground in my local STEALING OF THE CHURCH HOUSE OF WIDOWS and driving them out into the cold with: "I don't care what happens to the GREY HAIRS." Most of this was hatched by eggs laid by women peddling the Purpose Driven Cult. My CALL is to give people the Biblical facts to make the decision to quit being afflicted with the UNLAWFUL LAW OF GIVEN to support people trained to betray those who pay them.

I know that there are published HOW TO DO IT purpose driven cults which ADVISE laying the ground work in small groups, make the plan for the GREAT LEAP forward and get the financing in order BEFORE people catch on. CHANGE the name and bylaws so those from whom you STOLE the property cannot steal it back. That is a fact and we have respondents from most major denominations.

Churches like Madison in Nashville got SPREAD EAGLED out in mid air before one or two caught on: the sight is HORRIBLE when they stop moving MIDWAY between the walls of their Grand Canyon. If you are doing what someone THINKS you are doing you should expect, and purpose driven cult advises you to accept, the loss of about half of your "audience." If you are NOT prepared for that you need to fall back and do some Bible 101aaa.

God gave ME the call to test the spirits and DID NOT give a younger the commission to MAKE CHANGES which, we are told, is what Pentecostals Puked up. IF someone is teaching that Scripture says ANYTHING about God selecting INDIVIDUALS to be saved or LOST then the warning that the PREACHING will divide is correct and DESIRABLE. Minimal ethics would say, go build your own church and not steal it for widows who have to spend their remaining days WEEPING as they are doing in many MEGA-CHURCHES.

Maybe you will be STRAIGHT and tell the people what you INTEND. The forum will tell them but you undoubtedly think that God has ELECTED you to fool the fools. I don't enjoy being nasty but I just can't stand seeing innocents raped in the middle of the street. Someone--assuredly speaking for maybe one half of your clients--cries for help and your elders have gone away and hired a HIRELING to be a dominant pastor.

If people will get the UNDERGROAND RAILWAY going I will tell you HOW original sin is PASSED on like a virus. Pretty soon, they willhave TAKEN THE OVERSIGHT as Peter demanded and get the truth out even though they will probably LOSE their "investment with the Louurrdee-uh."

Ken, ex Harvest, Ala

I don't have any information on the JOYOUS sermon which is gonna divide the church but I have clipped a copy of:

THE SOVEREIGNTY OF GOD Bryan Dunaway

I will review it shortly and tell you where to find it. It sounds about like the Lipscomb stuff where the HEAD of the Bible department has reformed DNA and David Lawrence who boasts of his CAMPUS MINISTRY.

Bryan weasels away from R.C.Sproul the guru of David Lawrence, Engedi Ministries and the SWIPING of Smith Springs. However, he has slipped in or infiltrated some Calvinistic principles, promoted by the Purpose Driven Cult that God causes all things.

Won't take me too long to do this small task. Who is Brian. I See another Dunaway heading the DREAM WORKS or whatever which becomes the female dominated future planning for the church. Again, it sounds like the Shepherds are doing a Book of Revelation where the musicians are the LOCUSTS who put them to sleep in the midday sun.

I don't mean to be nasty: my old mom used to say that it was congenital.

Ken

I freely acknowledge that the following remarks are not of my own hand. They are attributed to a man named Larry Taylor who I do not personally know. Nonetheless, I believe they are sound and thoughtful with the addendum that our faith in Jesus as Christ is expressed through our immersion into Him in the grave of baptism.



Like a river that flows between two banks, so the truth of God's Word flows between the extremes of Calvinism and Arminianism. As it has been pointed out, both are true and both are false. Election and predestination are Biblical doctrines. God knows everything and therefore He cannot learn anything or be surprised by anything. Thus, He knows, and has known from eternity past, who will exercise their free will to accept Him and who will reject Him. The former are the elect, the latter are non-elect. As D.L. Moody once said, the "whosoever wills are the elect, and the whosoever wont's are the non-elect." Every person who is not saved will have only himself to blame; God will not send anyone to hell, but many people will choose to go there by exercising their free will to reject Christ.

On the other hand, no one who is saved will be able to take any of the credit. Our salvation, from start to finish, is 100% God's work, and is based entirely on the finished work of the Cross. We were dead in trespasses and sins, destined for hell, when God in His grace, drew us to Himself, convinced us of our sin and our need for a Savior, and gave us the authority to call Jesus Lord. Is this grace, this wooing, irresistible? No, we have free will and we can resist, even to the damnation of our souls, but God does everything short of making us puppets to draw us into His family.

Moreover the concept of a limited atonement, that Jesus only died for the elect, and not for the sins of all people, is clearly unbiblical. The Bible is crystal clear that Jesus' death on the cross was for all people, and that there is sufficient power in His blood to cleanse away every sin. "Whosoever will may come" is meaningless if man has no free will and no ability to choose God.

The question of whether or not a Christian can lose or walk away from salvation (point 5 in both doctrinal systems) is academic. When a person who claims to be a Christian and shows some fruit to that effect turns his back on God and lives the life of a pagan, the Arminian says he was saved and is now not saved, while the Calvinist says that he was either never really saved to start with, or that he is severely backslidden, but still within grace. Ultimately, no one, not even the sinning person, knows the truth - only God does. In a backslidden or sin-filled state, there is no assurance of salvation, no resting in Jesus, no peace of God in the heart. So the sinning person, whether he is actually a Christian or just thinks he might be, needs to repent and get right with God. The true believer in Christ never has to doubt his salvation. He can rest in the perfect assurance that God saved him and will keep him, and nothing will ever separate him from God's love in time or eternity. We are secure in Christ, kept by the power of His loving grace, forever safe in Jesus.

It is imperative to remember that both Calvinism and Arminianism are systems of theology devised by godly, devout, Bible-believing men in the 1600's. Both systems are based on the Word of God, and both contain essential elements of truth, but neither can be substituted for reading and believing the Word of God. The Apostolic church knew nothing of either system, they simply believed what God had revealed. The difficulty arises when it seems that some of what God has revealed contradicts something else He revealed. How can man be absolutely free and God absolutely sovereign and directive simultaneously? How can salvation be entirely God's work, yet require the cooperation of mere men simultaneously? These are unanswerable questions ultimately. The Bible teaches both the sovereignty of God and the free will of man. It teaches what appears to be unconditional perseverance in some places and conditional perseverance in others. These things can never be intellectually reconciled because God is simply too big for us to understand. Both systems of theology emphasize one set of Scriptures while either ignoring or drastically twisting and explaining away others.

We are not called to understand God, only to believe Him. I am a free moral agent, responsible for my own sin, hopelessly lost. Jesus not only died for me, He drew me to Himself with bands of lovingkindness and grace, convicted me of my sin, gave me the power to call Him Lord, and will one day present me faultless before His presence with great joy. I am, by His grace, His child. And yet, I am still free to walk with Him or not to walk with Him. And what applies to me, applies to every human being. Jesus died for all of us and desires fellowship with all of us. Whosoever will may come and receive of His forgiveness and grace and salvation. Innocent babies who die are safe in heaven. God's election excludes no one; Jesus' atonement includes everyone. As has been pointed out, we are looking at two sides of the same coin. Election is God's side, free will is our side. Someone once said that as we enter life, we see emblazoned over the gateway the words "Whosoever will may come;" then as we enter and look back at the backside of the same gateway, we see inscribed what the words "Elect from the foundation of the earth." Election is God's side of the coin we call salvation, human responsibility is our side.

Rather than interpreting the Bible based on any theological or philosophical structure, it behooves us to simply read and believe the Word of God. As we teach the Scriptures from Genesis to Revelation, verse by verse, in context, we will at times sound like staunch Calvinists, preaching those passages which emphasize God's sovereignty, while at other times we will seem like devout Arminians, as we preach those passages which emphasize man's responsibility. The key to successful ministry is balance - to stay focused on the Word of God, and not become distracted by the doctrines of men.




Thoughtful remarks. Taylor's point at the end regarding successful ministry and balance are reminiscent of Brother Ira North - a man that I have greatly admired in his work and writings. I don't know about the specific sermons you may reference but I can tell you that a thoughtful review of any man's teaching from scripture should include more than one sermon for a great deal can be twisted out of context otherwise.

I am concluding my remarks on this site for I believe that this site only promotes quarreling and controversy. I am not afraid of controversy for it has its time and place. However, I do not seek it out for the sake of "being right." I don't even know Mr. Sublett and I'm pretty sure he does not know me or this body of people here at Westgate. I am glad to stand before the LORD as my judge. As for men judging my heart and intent that is their perogative.

I sense a lot of resentment in Mr. Sublett's remarks and I am sorry for any undue pain he may have suffered at the hand's of brothers or sisters in Christ who may have wrongly judged him. I will not continue that cycle by arguing with you Ken. Hurt people hurt people. I pray that you will be healed of your hurts.

Signing off,

Eric Greer

Well, I do not pardon nor exult the common expressions unleashed upon Westgate at this particular time and place in our great time of FELLOWSHIP. Regardless, of the adherence to the dichtomies of Calvinism or Arminism. I find neither of them...this or that...an entrapment of Lucifer for the destruction of OUR ASSEMBLY. OUR FIERY LORD HAS RESCUED US FROM SUCH CORROSION.

What I do find is an entrenched and wholehearted divisive scheme to effeminate the elders and other manly men into roles that are not of the LORD'S DIRECTION. Many arguments have been postulated about the usurption of women to the role of men. And I think that is a legitimate argument. But I think that we lose imperative focus on the true problem. OUR MEN ARE BECOMING LIKE WOMEN.

One such minister at Westgate who is a paid APOSTLE of the GOSPEL wears his hair long like that of a woman's. Now, I am well aware that this was the case with Samson, who with the strength that which was bestowed upon him by the LORD used his hair as this mighty vehicle. And also perhaps, the Apostle Paul, grew his hair out in sound DEVOTION to the Lord. But I think that under our circumstances, it is only a SIGN, not of devotion, but of further demasculation. I often see him with various other guys who wear their hair long like that of a woman's and it often makes me wonder in bitter sadness just how frequent is homosexuality current in our CHURCHES. And I hope that you have done enough proficient probing to see if he may be swerving onto that lost track.

But my main, bone to pick, lies in the clothing that our SPOKESMEN of the GOSPEL likes to assume. Mainly the coloring of the raiment. I see that he is particularly fond of the color pink. Which I find is humiliating to someone who claims to be a BRINGER OF GOOD NEWS of the LION OF JUDAH, to snuff out his manliness with pink. Here, he comes now. The emblazoned youngster riding on his pink horse to save the congregation from a MASCULINE GOD. It is not a strong, direction-oriented pink stallion that he rides. But a weak, an emotionally unstable pink nag that sways with whatever current fad or fashion is having its heyday. And somehow, in trying to be so popular and ruled by what others think of him, he decides to cater to the emotional state of our corrupt society and don a pink shirt. The color PINK is just stained righteousness. Twisted from the purity of white and shown to attract the most popular vote. But on the other hand, PINK is also a watered down version of the blood of Christ. No longer the rich red hues of our redemption, now it is a soft pink and not a full representation of Jesus Christ. So therefore, it is such a coloring that is much too sensitive to the tarnishings of our culture. Such shirts and ties should be thrown out. If we do not, who knows what form our congregations will look like?