|January 30 2004, 11:06 AM |
My best information is that 4.5 million page hits parses to about 2 million PEOPLE. Now, you guys count the same people over and over: if your attendance is 500 then you get 500 sermon hits per week from people who are spaced out by the music and false teaching. I have done lots of test: people RUSH to get out and cannot answer simple questions such as WHAT WAS THE TOPIC 15 minutes later.
Because of my links to schools and colleges I would think that lots of people are READING all of the way through. Like any "book" that means two or three times before the LIGHT dispels the DARKNESS. I do lots of class helps of 6th and 9th grader wanting informaion on the Ancient Near East, term papers and thesis. A student in Paris was ready to hand in her masters work when she SUDDENLY dicovered that there was a connection between MUSIC and RELITIGION.
Besides, I don't get paid, don't go out to baptize, take up collections, become a COUNTER OF THE TOWERS and frankly Jesus has not laid it on my heart to care much whether people grasp it or not: I am confident that we are in the WITNESSING phase. You DO remember that the religionists of the CURSED MONARCHY had the prophecies but didn't have a clue about the meaning of the FIRST advent.
Based on the total fulfillment of the end-time signs I am quite sure that YOU will not hear the trumpet voice of Jesus announcing His return: you will have captured people and are involved with real or VOCAL trumping or TRIUMPHING over Jesus and His Word. Revelation 18 and much of the book PROVES that what you guys call CHURCH is the rise of the musical harlot named CIRCE or KIRKE or, yes, even ZOE or INANNA. The word is SYNAGOGUE or school of the Bible.
Yes, I get lots of good mail along with the HATE words: My day is made if I can EXORCIZE the TITHING or LAW OF GIVING to false teaching DEMONS. Or, people wake up and say: "Wow, they really are HURTING me" with all of what history calls screaming, screeching and howling.
I do my web pages for MY education as a converted DISCIPLE of Christ. He promised to be with two or three but not two or three thousand SCREECHING and looking effeminate to DROWN OUT the worship of God which Jesus said happens ONLY in the new PLACE of the human spirit as it GIVES HEED to the WORDS of Christ. The words of Twila or Zoe spits the words of Jesus out of their mouth and plugs the ears. My God, my God, can they believe that they are in the Most Holy Place with you when they are PERFORMING the sacred rites of Thespianism which means the same thing as Lesbianism or its male counterpart.
Because these 2,000 plus documents (Babylon Tablets, Dead Sea Scrolls, Church Fathers and the Bible) are linked and cross linked and COVERED by a search engine, if I have a question I can ask my pages and most often find them. I can find thousands of links to MUSIC AS PAGAN IDOLATRY but NOT ONE Biblical or historical positive thought about MUSIC as the product of Lucifer who is Inanna in Mesopotamia and Zoe in later Gnosticism. Sure, just ask the site about GNOSTICISM. Sure, I knew that an engineer collecting and dispensing all of that stuff for FREE is a reproach to the SECTARIANS of the THESPIAN tribe: rhetoricians, sOPHISts (serpents), singers and musicians.
That is why the old owners are willing to FLEE FOR THEIR SPIRITUAL lives when the theatrical performers MOUNT the podium "making a place for themselves in the mainstream."
Conclusion: I count numbers to decide which way to go in adding or deleting from the 2,000 plus research papers which you would be forced to STARVE your children to PROCURE from purely ignorant "universities."
I am not kind because a Paul Revere is not a LOCATED MISSIONARY (Re:Shelly) and the purely PSYCHOLOGICAL VIOLENCE of using the LOUVEEE-EH word intends to force Paul to set up headquarter in North Church. Neither Jesus nor Paul TURNED the cheek in a literal sense and LOVE is keeping Chris't Commandments and telling my children and my children's children. Thank you very much but my two daughters are well prepared to refute the PURPOSE DRIVEN LIFE heresy in Murfreeboro.
I don't expect to see any Jesus riding a white horse down the streets of Jerusalem which is identified as Egypt and Sodom. I think that people are being RAPTURED out of pagan churches held captive by the LOCUST or musical performers of all legend. Paul said that you have to GO OUTSIDE the city or camp or temple to find Jesus who awaits beside Piney Creek to teach: one at a time. I have been raptured and left my "tithes and offerings" to burn up along with the COLLECTORS of the tithes.
I think that it may be like Amos which most preachers and professors lie about:
Am.5:17 And in all vineyards shall be wailing: for I will pass through thee, saith the Lord.
Am.7:8 And the Lord said unto me, Amos, what seest thou? And I said, A plumbline. Then said the Lord, Behold, I will set a plumbline [NARROW] in the midst of my people Israel: I
will not again pass by them any more:
Socrates responding to the CHORUS
"Didn't know that they sustain and
feed a host of specialists,
"sayers of sooth, quack doctors, [Frogs in Revelation are Quacks]
"hairy idlers with onyx signet-rings,
"writers of chorus-bending screeches,
Aristophanesdoing nothing useful,
living only to SING about the Clouds?
Performance preachers, guitar players performed the PRETEND task of sorcerers. The Greek language knows them as PARASITES.
It may be popular RELIGION but it has no remote roots to the church of Christ or the SYNAGOGUE of Christ which has ONE GOAL: "making known the manifest wisdom of God" to heaven and earth. The locusts (musical performers) also have Scorpion Stings in their tail: they inject poison to put you to sleep so that you don't even ANTICIPATE that Jesus will take people away while you are marrying and giving in marriage (Hebrew word meaning play the flute, pollute or prostitute).
|This message has been edited by ConcernedMembers from IP address 126.96.36.199 on Jan 30, 2004 5:13 PM|
|An Otter Creek Member|
What Goes on at Otter
|January 15 2004, 1:36 PM |
Do you REALLY want to know what we do during worship services? Here it goes:
I personally attend the first set of classes where I meet regularly with many, many other God-fearing Christian men and women--my brothers and sisters in Christ. We pray together and then we sit under the instruction of some of the most humble and knowledgable Christians alive today.
During the service, we fellowship with one another. We have the most amazing a capella worship time I have ever been involved with. We have an amazing pastor who not only preaches the Word, but he lives it. And our elders.....the most caring, loving, prayerful men of God that I know. They want nothing more than to serve God in all that they do. And it is visible in that our church follows their leadership whole-heartedly.
I have never met such an amazing group of Christians than those that attend Otter Creek. We are all sinners, and we will tell you that, but that doesn't make us any different than any of you, does it?
And one more thing--it is obvious (note Sacred Cow's post) that instruments were used in the Old Testament. And instruments will be used in Heaven (see Revelations and other passages)....so, if we serve an unchanging God, why would it be a "sin" to use instruments now???? That just baffles me. And we all should know that the use of a capella music did not become "holy" and instrumental music "sinful" until the Civil War era when churches in the North were criticized for their use of pianos while churches in the South hardly even had a place to meet. Seems to me as if the sin committed here is not instrumental music, but brothers and sisters not reaching out to those in need. Now this hardly seems like a Scripturally ordained reason to knock off instrumental music.....
Still don't know
|January 25 2004, 2:50 PM |
I have read every post on this site, and I have to say I have no idea what is happening at Otter Creek. (if anything)You have all been so concerned with who gets the last word, that you have gotten completely off the topic. Let's all act like real brothers and sisters of Christ and stop all this bickering. We have a loving and caring God who wants us to worship him with all our mind, soul and strength. If that happens to include instruments for some of us then I don't believe God will condem us for using them. Just as he will not condem us if we do not use instruments. He wants our hearts.
No one here knows facts
|January 25 2004, 11:46 PM |
Everyone makes assumptions on things they've heard. I've only read one person who actually knows what's going on at Otter Creek and everything else is pure speculation or judgement. Or Gossip (Romans 1:29; 2 Corinthians 12:20).
John, if you really want to know what goes on there, call the church or go visit yourself. Anything else just encourages specualtion withoout facts.
Use of Instruments in the Lord's Church
|January 28 2004, 9:57 AM |
We do not go back to the Old Testament for our use of instruments in the Lord's Church. Christ died for our sins, therefore a New Testament came into effect after his death, same as a will does today. We are not in heaven if we are writing on this web site. The New Testament does not tell us to use an instrument in our worship to him. Therefore, we don't. As for an amazing group of "Christians", God fearing "Christians" at Otter Creek, you can be good, amazing, and sincere, but be sincerely wrong. Some may say, how silly to not be able to add what you wish to the worship. Just remember, the foolishness of God is wiser than man. The Lord has also said the way to eternal damnation is the broad way. Be careful, you that are broadminded. Remember what God said he would say to them in the last day, Depart from me I never knew you, you workers of iniquity. They are sincere, but sincerely wrong. Also, about doing something that is not commanded in the New Testament, remember our example of Nadab and Abihu in the Old Testament.
|January 28 2004, 1:11 PM |
You know of course that AMONG THE SCHOLARS they love to MOCK anyone who speaks of Nadab and Abihu because they are MOCKERS firstly but because they are ignorant because repudiating the Bible used by faithful disciples causes God to blind their eyes, plug their ears and send them strong delusions.
Amazingly, God does this to people who know the Word and then repudiate it again and fall from Grace and cannot be renewed to repentance (Heb. 6).
Paul's warning apply to the FALLS FROM GRACE when People repudiated God by repudiating His Word. God is Spirit and therefore can only be worshipped in OUR SPIRIT when we obey what He wants as worship.
After the Israelites ROSE UP TO PLAY in Musical Idolatry, the Sacrificial system was commanded because they rejected God's GRACE. Nadab and Abihu burned INCENSE on strange (foreign) fire. God had not commanded either incense or the Scape Goat. Moses and Aaron had performed the rituals COMMANDED by God and God did not say: "thou shalt not burn incense to me."
While the MOCKERS Mock--that is what they do as a profession--it is a fact that God CONSUMED them with fire at Mount Sinai and in the Nadab and Abihu ADDING what God had not commanded. The INCENSE altar was added and the people could not approach God. The scapegoat was a SACRIFICED GOAT to Azazel or Satan because they minds demanded something to APPEASE Satan who is always the ROOT of disobedience. Those who worship the GOAT will not be accepted by God in Christ.
Paul spoke of this and other FALLS in Romans 1 which shows that ignoring the WORD automatically turns even believers back to the rituals which lead to perversion.
In Hebrews Paul warned:
"For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that BURNED WITH FIRE, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest, Heb 12:18
And the sound of a trumpet
, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more: Heb 12:19
(For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart: Heb 12:20
And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake:) Heb 12:21
The EARTHLY Jerusalem is identified with SLAVERY and SODOM. The clergy were not true Israelites although they could say that they were children of Abraham. Jesus identifed them with Hagar, slavery, Mount Sinai, the Jerusalem as David's HIGH PLACE. The leaders in this Jebusite High Place were Cainites or Kenites or Canaanites. Cain means A MUSICAL NOTE and it is the MARK of those who use music and CRAFTSMENSHIP to SEDUCE AND ENSLAVE those for whom Jesus Died. We have our spirit made holy so that we can boldly enter the throne room WITHOUT musicians or singers who would be EXECUTED if they dared enter the EARTHLY JERUSALEM type of the church or body of Christ.
BUT ye are come unto mount Sion
, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem
, and to an innumerable company of angels, Heb 12:22
PLEASE READ THE IN BETWEEN
"And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the REMOVING of those things that are SHAKEN [waver, agitate, rock, topple, incite], as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain. Heb 12:27
...Salpigc (g4536) sal'-pinx; perh. from 4535 (through the idea of quavering or reverberation): a trumpet: - trump (- et).
"Wherefore we receiving a KINGDOM
which cannot be moved, let us have grace,
whereby we may serve God acceptably with REVERENCE
and godly FEAR:
For our God is a consuming fire. Heb 12:29
EXULTING in A capella music has the meaning of the Pope's CASTRATOS. When we come into the presence of God and do not have REVERENCE or downcast eyes we have been TRANSPORTED into the real of God as a CONSUMING FIRE where GRACE demands that He punish those who treated Him like a prostitute which is the ONLY meaning of music.
This PATTERN is being repeated now as the MUSICAL or THESPIAN performers all focus on Old Testament rituals which were added BECAUSE OF TRANSGRESSION by musical idolatry at Mount Sinai. After which God TURNED THEM OVER to worship the starry host including Saturn = 666.
Having repudiated the WORDS of Christ and the apostles they have been TRANSPORTED back before the Cross and there is no grace or redemption to them.
Those who COME TO THE SOUND of the Trumpet or a human imitation of MUSICA intend to HURT people to create a DRUG HIGH because they have NO WORD OF GOD to give people. In that, they fulfill the TYPE in the Book of Enoch (quoted by Jude) to MASK THEIR FEAR because God has cut off "messanging" as the Word and they are ACTING OUT polluting God because, in these old documents, MISERY DEMANDS COMFORT.
, ae, and mu-si(ce- , e-s, f., = mousikê, the art of music, music; acc. to the notions of the ancients, also every higher kind of ARTIST or scientific CULTURE or pursuit
, es, f., = exêgêtikê, the art of interpretation, exegesis
, (outlawed by Peter as PRIVATE INTERPRETATION)
, e-s, f., = magikê (sc. technê), the MAGIC ART, magic, SORCERY
The PHARISEES believed that they held a SPIRITUALLY SUPERIOR POSITION. They were the performance preachers, prayers, song writers as SCRIBES and ACTORS as HYPOCRITES. However, John warned:
"For without are dogs [male prostitutes], and sorcerers
, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie
ANY concept of the THESPIAN art points directly to DRAMA because "drama works because we KNOW that it isn't true." Any performance is ONCE or TWICE removed from the truth: especially musicians. The Thespians and Lesbians or "Lesbo singers" have much the same meaning.
The CHILDREN or "chorus leaders" piped hoping to get Jesus and His disciples to SING and DANCE the perverted ritual of DIONYSUS.
And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters
, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman (TECHNE)
, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee; Rev 18:22
GRINDERS was a code word for concubines or PROSTITUTES. When they forced Samson to GRIND in the king's house, he was not grinding cornmeal.
, hê, theology of the Magians, m. hê Zôroastrou
Dare any GREEK SCHOLAR refute it? Yet, they are SO SILENT as OCU 2004 combines ART AS WORSHIP and the INTERNATIONAL CHURCH OF CHRIST. This means THE BOSTON MOVEMENT OR CROSSROADS or SHEPHERDING without which the new THESPIAN churces cannot exist. Max Lucado, Lynn Anderson and Rubel Shelly defend a form of SHEPHERDING which is the MEANING of the COMMUNITY CHURCH meaning COMMUNES. Carroll D. Osburn claims that they are training PROPHETS, CHANELLERS and FACILITATORS with advanced degrees (about 212F) to go out and facilitate the changes to the NEW STYLE churches
|This message has been edited by ConcernedMembers from IP address 188.8.131.52 on Jan 28, 2004 2:03 PM|
To the MODERATOR who approves all comments
|January 30 2004, 11:54 AM |
It's quite interesting to see the comments that you do allow.
It's a shame that the majority of our conversations go unseen.
I'm not concerned with this being posted as much as I am you reading it.
The fact that you allow the majority of Ken's filth and banter is beyond my comprehension. But then again it is "your" show.
*Most of his comments need a rating of "R." Due to the sexual content, language, and suggestive material of an adult nature.
MESSAGE FROM THE MODERATOR
I will explain this again very slowly so you can grasp it.
Kenneth Sublett puts his name on his work. Whether he is right or wrong, others will have to discern.
Anyone is allowed to comment, and refute anonymously if they wish, but not attack others.
Many of your postings have been attacks on Kenneth Sublett. We don't have to defend those telling the truth, and Kenneth does a wonderful job, regardless of whether you understand it or not.
Your attacks are nameless, spineless, and are without merit. They will continue to be deleted......
|This message has been edited by ConcernedMembers from IP address 184.108.40.206 on Jan 30, 2004 5:30 PM|
Well done Ken
|January 31 2004, 6:52 AM |
Well it looks like you stepped in it again at Otter Creek. Well done.
I have noticed that you always get attacked by different anonymous named responders. I think it is one person and he post under several names to make it look like there are many that disagree with you, when there is only one demon following you around.
Keep up the Good Work.
To God be the Glory
Thank You For Understanding
|February 2 2004, 2:02 PM |
"I will explain this again very slowly so you can grasp it."
"Kenneth Sublett puts his name on his work. Whether he is right or wrong, others will have to discern."
"Anyone is allowed to comment, and refute anonymously if they wish, but not attack others."
"Many of your postings have been attacks on Kenneth Sublett. We don't have to defend those telling the truth, and Kenneth does a wonderful job, regardless of whether you understand it or not."
"Your attacks are nameless, spineless, and are without merit. They will continue to be deleted......"
I want to thank you for atleast reading what I sent "you."
Lets be honest.
Whether Ken is right or wrong? That is noble. You see I was under the impression like most others who read this material that Ken and all who associates themselves with this site condsider themselves to be "right."
I can respect your comment regarding "whether right or wrong, everyone must discern for themselves."
That is one our brotherhood's bigest problems. "Too concerned about getting it right and being right." I never said Ken was wrong or that I was even right. My replys are simply written to counter act that which has already been stated. Ken and I disagree.
You also said those who submit are not allowed to attack others. Please, as honestly as you can, please tell me how Ken's words: condemning brothers and sisters to the lake of fire with entire church bodies based on their worship - are not a full blown attacks.
Ken can attack.
No one else can use self defense.
What I do understand is what I already understood. I didn't expect any other comment from you. How easy it to say that many of my submissions are attacks on Ken when I use scripture, just like he does; I ask point blank questions, like he does; and I assume that Ken is a big enough of a man to take care of himself and the submissions; just as I am.
Without merit -
Delete if you must...
MESSAGE FROM THE MODERATOR
I AM SO VERY SORRY. I MUST NOT HAVE BEEN PLAIN ENOUGH.
KEN USES HIS NAME, SO HE CAN SAY ANYTHING HE WANTS TO AS LONG AS IT'S NOT TELLING AN UNTRUTH ABOUT SOMEONE.
YOU DON'T USE YOUR NAME, SO YOU CAN NOT ATTACK SOMEONE USING THEIR NAME AND WHILE KEEPING YOUR NAME SECRET.
NO WONDER WE ARE HAVING A HARD TIME COMMUNICATING.....
TRY ANOTHER NAME. CONSIDER "SACRED COW" PERMANENTLY BANNED.
|This message has been edited by ConcernedMembers from IP address 220.127.116.11 on Feb 2, 2004 5:59 PM|
|April 20 2004, 10:11 PM |
I don't know why I even read anything that is on this site. A speaker I recently heard said it best. "I wouldn't recommend that anyone go look up those websites (meaning sites such as this one) because toxic waste isn't good for anyone. I am sure that this message will be deleted. I won't be surprised. Ken Sublett blasts others for sowing discord. Maybe he should remove the plank from his own eye before he tries to remove the splinter from anyone else's. For someone who supposedly hates discord, he certainly spreads it around! There is a world full of lost people out there. And if it were up to him, they would all stay lost because he doesn't have time to spread the good news of Jesus Christ. He is too busy trying to convince those who are already Christians that he is right and they are wrong. I would hate to have to explain that on judgment day.
Re: What Goes on at Otter
|January 30 2004, 6:08 PM |
OCM: And one more thing--it is obvious (note Sacred Cow's post) that instruments were used in the Old Testament. And instruments will be used in Heaven (see Revelations and other passages)....so, if we serve an unchanging God, why would it be a "sin" to use instruments now????
When the Israelites ROSE UP in perverted PLAY it was MUSICAL IDOLATRY. This was the worship of the STARRY HOSTS and God ABANDONED THEM to the musical worship of Saturn who is 666 in Chaldee. God gave kings to lead the nation into captivity and death. The MUSIC at the temple was therefore EXORCISM as HARD BONDAGE during the sacrifice ot TYPES of Lord Jesus Christ. There is NO CONGREGATIONAL WORSHIP with INSTRUMENTAL ACCOMPANIMENT IN THE ENTIRE BIBLE.
The BIBLE says that Lucifer brought wind, string and percussion instruments which he had as he attempted to ASCEND UP to usurp the throne of God. Having failed, there would be many other ATTACKS on God always with MUSIC.
Psalm 41 prophesied that Judas would attempt to TRIUMPH OVER Jesus with music. The Essene translation proves that MUSIC attacks Jesus by idenffying Him with the Dung-God and God of tongues. However, Jesus won and established THE FRUIT OF THE LIPS as the only GOD-GIVEN instrument:
DSS: I will groan with the zither of lamentation
in all grief-stricken mourning and bitter complaint
until iniquity and wickedness are consumed
and the disease-bringing scourge is no more.
An evil disease, say they, cleaveth fast unto him: and now that he lieth he shall rise up no more. Ps.41:8
DSS: Then will I play on the zither of deliverance
and harp of joy,
on the tabors of prayer and the pipe of praise
We keep trying to tell you that Jesus didn't build a CHURCH as a WORSHIP CENTER. He bilt a SYNAGOGUE or school of the Bible. Unfortunately while you are singing you may violate the direct command of Paul to TEACH or PREACH the INSPIRED TEXT.
Now they HELD the instruments in heaven: they did not PLAY the harps and fall on their face at the same time. The INSTRUMENTS of Lucifer are wind, string and percussion: the instruments or harps of God are the mouth and heart used to COMMUNICATE.
They were DEAD VIRGINS and the message of John is that the DEAD are at peace and under God's protection. The other angel had a message for the living: preach the gospel which is "teaching the word as it has been taught." If you are into harps maybe you are spiritually dead. If you make a distinction between AUTHORIZED pastor-teacers as vocational preachers and PROFESSONAL PASTORS you may be coddled to keep the coins coming in.
Read about the Revelation SECRET MYSTERY here:
OCR: That just baffles me. And we all should know that the use of a capella music did not become "holy" and instrumental music "sinful" until the Civil War era when churches in the North were criticized for their use of pianos while churches in the South hardly even had a place to meet.
I can point you to totally adequate buildings in the South. They were "schools of the Bible" and not "pagan worship centers." Many of the churches I knew about were pre civil war.
It is a historical fact that churches in the North bought up rifled arms, sent then imto the South and said: "There is more power in one of these arms than in a 100 bibles." The war was a RELIGIOUS war. After the war the Northern Churches RICC on destroyed lives came south with their religious carpetbags and went to law to try to steal church property. I think they got one. Try some REAL history while the girly-boys are PERFORMING:
When you say that out loud to defend rank paganism then you have lied before a holy God. YOU say that only because your professors tell you that to SCAM you. Music as worship is condemned throughout the Old and New Testaments but Jesus said that He spoke so that you cannot grasp it if you--as evidenced-have no love for TRUTH. Music is 100% associated with prostitutes and sodomites in all ancient pagan religions. But, not in the VILEST could musicians and singers (A MONEY CROP FOR THE PRIESTS) could they enter into the holy precincts.
The TOTAL church history condemns music as worship because it PROVES that you, as many passages prove, that you DON'T and WON'T hear the words of God. Churches called "the church of Christ" have existed from the beginning and there are dozens of proofs. They ALL condemned instruments or even SINGING in a MUSICAL style. A Cappella means Ala Castratos or the Pope's "boy-girl" teams for the Sistine Chapel.
Prior to the civil are the Baptists, Presbyterians and many Methodists saw instruments, like Luther as the MARK OF BAAL. Many Presbyterians are non-instrumental and faithful to the Bible as PSALM SINGERS. The Baptists were being ROUTED out of their building to make room for ORGANS after 1900. The Catholic Encyclopedia as late as 1911 condemned instruments and the were OUTLAWED in the presence of the Pope and used ONLY for non official meetings.
OCR: Seems to me as if the sin committed here is not instrumental music, but brothers and sisters not reaching out to those in need. Now this hardly seems like a Scripturally ordained reason to knock off instrumental music....
Problem is that the INSTRUMENTAL SECTARIANS are reaching into the POCKETS of non-instrumental churches and the CANNOT preach without lying about the Bible and the totality of church history.
You PROVE my point: the musical clergy in Amos intended to use wine, women (of various sexes) and music to TAKE AWAY THE KEY to knowledge. Now, you are old enough to red and rite and have been left VOID of spiritual knowledge. For that you gladly WORSHIP your leaders and submit to the unlawful law of giving from the poor so the rich don't have to GO PREACH. Sounds to me like your RELATIONSHIPS are too close and too far away from the Suffering Servant who meets ONLY with the two's and three's OUTSIDE THE CAMP to conduct SCHOOL.
Show me a sectarian anti- and I will show you that they are terminally ignorant or totally evil. Paul said in effect that "fools love to be fooled." That is why only the riduculed remnant will go to heaven and God will, like the Jews, assyrians and Egyptians "beat the POPULAR MAJORITY into hell to the beat of harps and drums. YOU believe it because THEY throw you into schizophrenia with all of the SINGING and LOOVEEE-UH.
|This message has been edited by ConcernedMembers from IP address 18.104.22.168 on Jan 31, 2004 7:48 AM|
Why don't you come visit?
|April 4 2007, 10:07 PM |
I am a member at Otter Creek. Instead of asking for a second or third-hand report of the "goings-on here"... why don't you just come visit for yourself?
You'll find a wonderful group of people-- a true community of believers and followers of Christ. We embrace our differences because we rally around Christ alone-- in Him we find our unity.
We don't have the need for a website of "concerned members" who are worried about the direction of our church. Our elders are wise and Godly.
How wonderful to be part of a church family that can disagree without having to write endless letters, post to a website, or publicly tear down our fellow members. When you make it about the cross alone and nothing more--or less, things have a way of working themselves out....
It saddens my heart to read the posts from Ken, et al.
But-- to answer your question about Otter Creek-- it's a WONDERFUL place.
Come visit us at our new home-- 409 Franklin Road, Brentwood, TN.
|April 5 2007, 11:56 AM |
Amy, we all have an image of the meaning of "church." The Bible defines it as a place to REST and conduct a Bible Study. That is defined for the Israelites in the wilderness, practiced by the Jews throughout their history, exampled by Jesus, defined by Paul and practiced for many centuries.
What you might enjoy as "music" makes it impossible for a large majority of people in churches of Christ to participate. So, while you include certain people you exclude the majority.
I have never attended so I think it would help if you define the music part and what it contributes to your life.
you have got to be kidding are you for real
|February 13 2006, 8:20 PM |
All I can say you must be single.
WOMEN IN ROME:
Phoebe carried the great doctrinal statement of the book of Romans to the believers in Rome. In the original Greek text, Phoebe is referred to as a "diakonos." This word appears 22 times in the New Testament. In 18 of these, translators render it "minister" and three times as "deacon." In Phoebe's case, they change it to servant, perhaps reflecting bias on the part of the translators.
In introducing Phoebe to the believers in Rome, Paul says to:
...receive her in the Lord, as becometh saints, and that ye assist her in whatsoever business she hath need of you: for she has been a succourer of many, and of myself also. (Romans 16:2)
Some have thought from this passage that Phoebe provided hospitality to Paul, fed him, did his laundry, etc. But the word "succourer" actually means helper and the feminine form of the word means "one who stands before, a chief leader." The consideration Paul requests is the same he asks for male leaders and elders in I Thessalonians 5:12-13 and I Timothy 5:17.
In Romans 16, Paul refers to another woman in Rome, Prisca, who is married to Aquila. This is the same woman called Priscilla by Luke. Prisca is the more formal form of her name. We already learned about this woman in Chapter Eight.
The word "helper" which Paul used to describe her means "fellow worker." Paul stressed that Prisca and Aquila not only risked their lives but were also involved in an important ministry to the Gentile Churches.
Other women on Paul's list at Rome include Mary, who worked hard for the believers; Narcissus, who seemed to be the head of a household; Tryphena and Tryphosa, whose names mean dainty and delicate; and "the beloved Persis" who also worked hard in the Lord. There is a woman named Julia, about whom we are told nothing, and two others women whose names are not given, the mother of Rufus and the sister of Nereus. Junia, mentioned in Romans 16:7, was noted by the apostles for her faith, and was a fellow prisoner with Paul for the cause of Christ.
WOMEN IN THE OTHER EPISTLES:
Chloe is mentioned in I Corinthians 1:11. She sent a report to Paul about some disturbing things going on in the Church at Corinth. In Philemon, Paul addresses Apphia, Philemon's wife. This couple had a Church in their home as did Lydia and Nympha.
Euodia and Syntyche mentioned in Philippians 4:2 may have done evangelistic work, since Paul
describes them as "those women which labored (struggled) with me in the Gospel...with my other fellow laborers."
Paul extends greetings from "Claudia and all the brethren" in II Timothy 4:21 although we are not told anything about this woman.
Review of specific women mentioned in the Epistles reveals that the position of women in the early Church were not passive. They struggled right along with the men to spread the Gospel message.
Godly women labored as fellow workers, had great responsibilities, organized Churches in their homes, and were imprisoned for their faith. They underwent persecution as did all the believers and when this forced them to leave Jerusalem, they preached the Gospel wherever they went:
Therefore they that were scattered abroad went every where preaching the Word. (Acts 8:4)
These women provide inspiring role models for Christian women who seek their own places of service in the spiritual harvest fields of the world.
Confusion and Error
|April 7 2010, 5:09 PM |
I am a member of a church that does NOT use musical instruments. We take the Bible as our sole authority in all things. I have to say that Ken is way off the deep end. First of all the way he formats his essays makes it very difficult to follow his reasoning. It is often difficult to tell when he is relating his thoughts and when he is relating the thoughts of someone he agrees with and when he is quoting someone he disagrees with. When Peter said that Paul wrote of things hard to be understood he was referring to the concepts that Paul was teaching. Ken's writings are not hard to be understood because the concepts he is trying to teach are very deep and complex but because his writing is disjointed, rambling, illogical and often plain inaccurate.
As an example I read his article on Zoe being Lucifer and in the first few sentences he claims that the serpent in Genesis is Zoe and that Zoe is Eve in the Greek. First of all the Greek word Zoe is never used to refer to Eve in the Bible. Neither is the Greek word Zoe ever used to refer to Satan. The Greek word zoe literally means life or a living organism.
In Matthew 7:14 Jesus says wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction and strait is the gate and narrow is the way that leads to LIFE. The Greek word that is translated as life is "zoe". In John 14:6 Jesus said he is the way the truth and the LIFE (again the Greek word is "zoe"). There is nothing in the Bible that equates the word "zoe" with Lucifer.
Now I don't know anything about this Zoe group. I have never heard of them and they may very well be involved in unscriptural practices. However, it is unacceptable for Ken to teach error to combat error.
Also I have noticed that Ken refers to historical documents quite a bit. Historical documents are not inspired by God and many times contain incorrect or misleading information, especially when taken out of context as Ken often does. I have noticed that he will quote something and highlight certain words or phrases and then makes a conclusion based on those things that is wholly different than what the writer was intending. I'm not saying that historical evidence should never be used but it should not be the main support of our arguments against error and we must always be sure our sources are accurate and we use them in context.
I truly appreciate Ken's condemnation of instrumental music. This addition in modern churches needs to be confronted and eliminated. I also appreciate his condemnation of the teachings of Rubel Shelly, Max Lucado and their ilk. However, when one confronts error it needs to be in a clear, concise manner and to do so in a manner that is truthful, logical and that places the most emphasis on scripture and not the writings of men. So rather than Ken being light years ahead of everyone else in spiritual understanding he himself is guilty of false teaching
I am not writing this to get into a lengthy debate on a message board and so probably will not feel compelled to respond to rebuttals but I felt that people reading these boards should be aware of the issues here.
Re: Otter Creek-Zoe Group, Nashville,Tn.
|February 2 2004, 2:43 PM |
I'm concerned that there are way too many people picking hair off fleas about thier churches instead of spreading the gospel. How does this site draw people close to God? I sure hope that God is as gracious as He says He is, because if He judges anything like some of you do, none of us have a chance at spending eternity with God.
|This message has been edited by ConcernedMembers from IP address 22.214.171.124 on Feb 2, 2004 6:01 PM|
|An Otter Creek Member|
|February 20 2004, 6:06 PM |
While you are all in this forum wasting your time day after day after day refuting what is going on in different churches around the US, there are LOST PEOPLE OUT THERE!!! Lose the buff about instruments and power point and praise teams, get off your butt and go tell people about Jesus!
|April 1 2004, 12:16 AM |
I have tried showing Ken Sublett via email what important things we are called to do with our short time here on earth (i.e. fulfill the great commission and the greatest commandment) but I believe this message of the Lord's has fallen on deaf ears. Let's not fight anymore. We can't change his mind, but we can pray that God shows him the truth and what really matters. God can soften his heart. So let's not throw our pearls to swine (to use the proverb loosely), wipe the dust off ourselves and go out to others to show them Christ's love. Let God deal with Kenneth Himself.
Re: Amen Loren
|April 1 2004, 2:32 PM |
Loren, I don't remember your e-mail: must have been the old LOVE dodge and leave the musical heretics alone.
I must not have had my nose above the slop. If you will just continue throwing the PEARLS I will assuredly appreciate it and so will my dentist.
I have to tell you again that ZOE is Inanna in Babylonia and is ZOE in Gnostics which was the same old "church" built on a CHARISMATIC sense (intimately tied to pedestary). ZOE was the Mother-Sister of the little dumb "jehovah." The links are listed above. There is no MUSIC WORD connected with the worship of a Holy (wholly) Spirit God. ALL of the Bible and all of the literature associate it with male and female prostitutes and the Warrior Levites who served (hard bondage like Abaddon or Apollyon) the priests as the slaughtered tens of thousands of INNOCENT LAMBS to try to get the assurance they Lost when the elders "fired" God and demanded a king like the nations "sos we can worship like the nations" meaning like the Egyptians, Canaanites and Babylonians.
Take a look at the Richland Hills page:
First, take a look at the MUSIC posts.
This will lead you to a long discussion about the CHURCH. The church is named after CIRCE the holy whore
of John's area around Patmos. She will again, like Lucifer or ZOE go back into Sheol with her:
Rev 18:22 And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters,
shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman,
of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee;
The Greek literature identifies all of these as pretending to be sorcerers.
The Craftsmen (techne) included the rhetoricians, sOPHISts (serpents like the musical enchanter in the garden of Eden who WHOLLY SEDUCED Eve. Cain was OF that wicked one and his name means A MUSICAL NOTE.). It also includes singers and musicians. Because they served no useful purpose and MARKED out the male and female prostitutes, they were identified as PARASITES.
In this link pay attention to PSALLO which is NEVER a musical word but a WARFARE word
and associated with Apollo (Abaddon, Apollyon) and his resurrected muses which are the LOCUSTS with stingers in their tails.
Also look at the two MELODY words
and see that they, too, speak of Lucifer as the "singing and harp playing prostitute" who was in the garden of Eden. The first word is NAGAN
The second word, ZAMAR,
is related to instruments in the sense of "triming your vines to steal your inheritance." This word is intimately connected to the SHAGGY GOATS like the BEAST in Revelation who, in the Greek Literatre, is identified as PAN, the little goat footed, horned god (horny always meant horny). His seven or ten HORNS are identifed as MUSICAL instruments. They are used to help the 10 AGENTS (you know their names) to ascend to their HILL or little kingdom. Music in "worship" in the Biblical sense is UNIVERSALLY the MARK of prostitutes and Sodomites. I am sorry but I know of no exception. Religious adultry and prostitution in the Bible is ANYTHING which will lead your mind away from God in Christ and HIS Word.
The SECOND DIALOG has to do with the fact that Jesus DID NOT found a church or a pagan "worship center."
He promised to build an ekklesia or synagogue. The synagogue never had A PRAISE SERVICE and indeed it was outlawed if you have A holy spirit and can read Numbers 10. The Jews NEVER violated that commande when Stephen's CHURCH IN THE WILDERNESS met or when the PEOPLE met for instructions while the KING an COMMANDERS OF THE ARMY held their religio-political rituals at the temple.
When individuals ASSEMBLE Paul used a form of SYNAGOGUE
and he limited "worship" to giving heed to that which is written (Rom 15), the Spirit (word) in Eph 5 and the Word of Christ in Colossians. When Paul said DON'T GET DRUNK with wine but be FILLED with the spirit so that you could SPEAK or teach one another, the word ment to be FLUTED DOWN WITH WINE or to be FLUTED DOWN to human passion.
Words like MELODY, CANTUS or MELODIA all speak of instruments to create FRENZY or the "spiritual anxiety" Jesus died to remove. The impulses are that of PANIC which you guys TRAFFICK as spiritual consistent with the Lucifer-Zoe concept. Modern science knows that the singing, drama and charismatic preaching create DRUGS in your system and the impulses are FIGHT, FLIGHT or SEXUALITY. Nimrod knew that: he USED priests, soothsayers, musicians, and male and female prostitutes. He led around a MUSICAL TEAM which promised to REGENERATE MORALS THROUGH EXTERNAL MEANS.
Ken, keep those pearls comming and also the Christ-like responses to BIBLICAL TEACHING. How about contacting that guy what turns fillings into GOLD. I like that better.
|This message has been edited by ConcernedMembers from IP address 126.96.36.199 on Apr 2, 2004 7:01 AM|
|June 8 2004, 10:34 AM |
there was this man whom God said was after his own heart
that would be God's heart. . .
a man after God's heart. . .
wow, what a man
that man wrote a little ditty
it went something like this
praise the Lord
praise God in his sanctuary
praise him in his mighty heavens
praise him for his acts of power
praise him for his surpassing greatness
praise him with harp and lyre
Praise him with tambourine and dancing
praise him with the strings and flute
praise him with the clash of cymbals
praise him with resounding cymbals
let everything that has breath praise the Lord
Praise the Lord
you can find it in the bible, Psalms 150 to be exact
so by using the feeble logic in Ken's posts . . .
Kens logic would mean that the God of David supported all of the things that Ken associates with instrumental music and dancing. . .
we must all remember that our struggle is not against man, but it is against those powers, authorities, rulers, and unseen things aligned with the prince of darkness some of which seem to posses Ken
we should pray for Ken, that he may be released from the bondage he is so obviously in