Can someone give me more information about one of the churches the leader of the Zoe Group is associated with, Otter Creek? I've read all about Woodmont Hills but haven't seen as much about Otter Creek. Thanks.
This message has been edited by ConcernedMembers from IP address 68.19.193.108 on Dec 12, 2003 12:11 PM
Zoe Group is located at Otter Creek. John York, co preacher with Rubel Shelly got a "call" to go to Beaverton, Oregon. He found himself in the midst of a Bible believing church. He mixed up his message from God and landed at Otter Creek. Get the joke? Sometimes when people like York and Shelly claim to hear God's voice, AUDIBLY, they may have tuned in on the wrong channel.
I have reviewed lots of Zoe Group. They sow discord by teaching female leadership, singing, drama, music and approve of instruments or about anything which will LIGHT THE FIRE. One of the latest is:
In the Greek version EVE is ZOE or life. This has led the Babylonians, Catholics, Gnostics and modern GNOSTICS to see her as THE MOTHER OF THE GODS. There is much more contained in the Hebrew background than most will pay attention to.
Zoe, daughter of Sophia, (under different names) gave birth to "little dumb Jehovah" and put him into the abyss. He quickly figured out that if he wanted to be safe around the FEMINISTS goddesses, he had better learn to compose and send up PRAISE TUNES. The females RAISED UP Jehovah to the seventh heaven but STILL BELOW the Supreme God. In the seventh heaven, being very cunning, He organized musical worship teams. Did they worship the Supreme God above? No. They worshipped Sophia and Zoe.
In the literature, Sophia is the SERPENT and ZOE is the BEAST (zoe from flesh). She is also the "female instructing principle."
This FEMALE CREATURE runs the worship of the church (Circe, Kirke, holy whore). However, she and all of her musicians, instrumentalists and craftsmen (program facilitators, etc) will again be sent where they belong.
All of these crafts (Gr. Techne) such as rhetoricians, sOPHISts (serpents or OPHIS), singers and musicians onced functioned in defunct SACRIFICIAL systems. Then and when the temples failed (as they will always fail) they performed as SORCERERS (and Exorcists) and were known as PARASITES.
Zoe people BELIEVE that they are sincere but they can cut you real bad if you try to oppose them:Judas was Judas Sicarri which means assassins or "daggar men." He also carried the JUDAS BAG which was ALWAYS attached to a flute case. It means "speaking in tongues" and "of the world" or Kosmos where Satan is the Kosmokraetor. The singers-dancers were usually NAKED and perverted and that is why Jesus and the faithful would not BOW DOWN in singing and dancing while the clergy blew their pipes.
My old peacable church in Seattle learned how to make music which means to lie, cheat and steal the church house of widows. Sunday night, as expected, sounds like witchcraft. Barbelo is also Sophia-Zoe.
Don't ever believe that Paul was ignorant or evil when he told us about non-sedentary women in the assembly. When women "behind the throne" begin to jab, the weak or effeminate male, usually self-selected, elders bow down because of their own character or to get more funds for their JUDAS BAG. Women and weird preachers have historically been the ONLY promoters of RELIGION while Jesus built an ekklesia (synagogue) or school of the Bible for DISCIPLES and not pagan worshipers.
The Hebrew HALAL in various forms of PRAISE means to "make yourself vile." In Arabic, halal means "kosher meat." Why would anyone call themselves A Cappells (popes castrates) or Halal or Zoe Group and TOTALLY MISS the Jezebel Group?
Ken Sublett
This message has been edited by ConcernedMembers from IP address 68.19.193.108 on Dec 13, 2003 8:05 AM
it's no secret that the otters have been making prolific use of instruments for several years now, and i'm not just talking back-up cd tracks. they've used a full band (guitars, drums, guitars, keyboards - not the oboe, french horn band) for various 'special music' holiday presentations for quite a while. similiar situations have existed at teen retreat and adult retreats, as well. it's not like this has been done in secret.
IN THE GREEK WORLD THE MUSES WERE CONNECTED TO PAGAN, OBSCENE "WORSHIP" OF ZEUS, APOLLO (ABADDON, APOLLYON, etc. See Rev 18:22)
"The MUSES (musicians) or secondary GODDESSES were USED by Apollo at his SEEKER CENTER at Delphi. They were the daughters of ZEUS. These were the GODDESSES of the arts, drama, music, and the power behind them. The Muses were: Clio (history), Calliope (epic poetry), Erato (love poetry), Euterpe (lyric poetry), Melpomene (tragedy), Polyhymnia (song, rhetoric, and geometry), Thalia (comedy), Terpsichore (dancing), and Urania (astronomy and astrology). In fact the word "music" is derived from Muse, and means "art of the Muses". A more definitive way of putting it would be "art of the goddesses".
It is interesting to see that the "ART of the goddesses" is also being used today in a psychological manner; even in the church. This is seen especially in The Church Growth Movement. For instance, CGM forerunner Bill Hybels of Willow Creek Community Church [a church into using drama and music to reach people] says,
"A person's resistance to persuasion is very high when SPOKEN TO...
....but VERY LOW when exposed to drama and music.
NOTE FROM ABOVE, THIS WAS THE UNDERSTANDING OF ALL WHO TRIED TO SEDUCE YOU WITH "MUSIC"
....lyric poetry, the CHORAL SONGS,
....opposed to the DIALOG
THE INFILTRATE AND DIVERT CONFESS THAT:
....We communicate truth through the BACK DOOR. People don't even know it's happening." Daily Herald, May 18, 1988.
"We can explain this by saying that the ARTS of the Muses have a power to LOWER RESISTANCE in order to persuade a person's thinking, and subtly at that [which is disturbing].
...We can see the concepts of this same myth used by marketing psychology in radio and TV commercials. Commercials use music and drama to affect our minds in this manner.
In the Greek world, males who did this were PERVERTED or DRUNK. This is why they used GOWNS but loose enough that THOSE WITH EYES can understand that the Holy Whore of Revelation 18:22 is at the PEAK OF HER WEAK and the frantic--yea, hostile and violent--MUSES as resurrected LOCUSTS (musical performers) have to STING as many people as possible for Lucifer-Zoe.
See the PROMISE KEEPER'S authority for MAX LUCADO'S new vision and Rubel Shelly's NEW GLASSES for a NEW VISION for the CHURCH:
Ken,
Thank you for opening my eyes!!
Your wisdom and understanding of the gospel message is unsurpassed in my experience.
I've been attending Otter Creek for a number of years but was never made aware of their sins until I read about your experiences there.
CAN GOD EVER FORGIVE ME FOR ATTENDING OTTER CREEK?
I need to know!! Is this an unforgivable sin?
I was baptized before I attended Otter Creek, so I hope my baptism is still valid and can get me into heaven.
What am I to do??
How can I put an end to this evil, which sounds worse than all of Adolf Hitler's actions?
Should I attend another church??
If so, can you recommend a church in Nashville that teaches the truth? I would love nothing more than to attend your church.
If God can't forgive me of this sin, then I might as well quit going to church.
I NEED HELP!
Thanks for exposing how much God hates to hear any sound except for human voices! I now wonder if He's ever heard anything I've said to Him.
You have truly preached GOOD NEWS.
Wow, I'm in awe.
I am sorry that you are having trouble GIVING HEED to the words. However, this is a symptom. From the garden of Eden to the end-time Babylonian worship, SELF-DIRECTING is the result of hungering and thirsting for the WORD and not able to find it (Amos 5, 6, 8; Isaiah 5) because the "Shepherds" refuse to FEED you.
This is not about YOU in the least. Let me tell you as a long time student with a problem I have found some answers. My problem was trying to reconciling my honest research of the Bible which has NOTHING good to say about "music" even if lost souls did. And, indeed, all of the musical terms and names of instruments in a "religious sense" began with Lucifer (Zoe) the superior to Jesus the Word who caused the fall of the angels. He/She appeared in the garden of Eden with wind, string and percussion instruments to WHOLLY SEDUCE Eve and ends with Revelation 18 warning about the end-time APOSTATE CHURCH which depends on "rhetoricians, sOPHISst (serpents), singers and musicians. All identified as part of the HYPOCRITE sect, all called SORCERERS and all PARASITES.
On the other hand, false teachers quite naturally see God 110% commanding music and instruments and identify those who OPPOSE them as SATANIC. This naturally produces a CONFLICT or as you might say DISCORD and we wonder how the "church" can exist as "christian" and still tell God that HE is a Liar. Well, in fact it cannot. The REMNANT is always tiny and will have to COME OUT of most end-time churches who actually HIRE PROFESSIONAL MUSICIANS to attract the WORLD'S MAJORITY who have sold themselves to Satan or Lucifer called the "singing and harp-playing prostitute" in the Garden of Eden.
To make the SOWING OF DISCORD impossible, Jesus built a SYNAGOGUE which is a school of the Bible. Thereafter, anything which SOWS DISCORD and does not contribute to the EDIFICATION or EDUCATION of the Disciples or Students is to MARK those who are Anti-Biblical and therefore Anti-Christian because the Lucifer Principle is to claim the godhead (as did Zoe) and her countertypes in Babylon and in later Gnosticism.
Now the Holy Spirit is the Mind of Christ (1 Cor 2). Jesus, in turn said MY WORDS are SPIRIT and LIFE. As the Spirit OF Truth, the Word is the only resource for the SCHOOL OF THE BIBLE. In the meantime, the Spirit of Christ was careful to call the Old Testament effort at self-redemption NOISE or SOUND. It does not teach.
Rather than being the SAFE HARBOR for professional SOWING OF DISCORD, the SYNAGOGUE solves the diversity which existed in Rome among once MUSICL WORSHIPERS associated with EATING MEAT or NOT eating meat.
For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink;
but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost. Rom 14:17
For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men. Rom 14:18
Let us therefore follow after the things which make for PEACE, and things wherewith one may EDIFY ANOTHER. Rom 14:19
In the assembly or SYNAGOGUE Paul showed how DIVERSE backgrounds can ASSEMBLE as STUDENTS or DISCIPLES where they could NEVER agree on a RELIGIOUS RITUAL or PAGAN system.
Then try to see in Romans 15 that GOD IN CHRIST did not PLEASE Himself. That means to EXCITE THE SENSES. We are commanded to not PLEASE ourself in the sensuous way but please everyone with JUST WHAT EDIFIES and no more.
Paul said that the METHOD is to use ONE MIND and one MOUTH. The goal was to GLORIFY God and not the "Theatrical Performers" who have a bad name in the Bible and in ALL of history. The RESOURCE was to be "That which is written." That, of course meant "Psalms, Hymns and Spiritual songs" which are ALL the inspired Biblical text.
When you make the HARD WIRED CONNECT in children's minds between "the works of human hands" or "the idolatry of talent" and the SPIRIT worship of a Holy or WHOLLY Spirit God, you have done something SPIRITUALLY DESTRUCTIVE to them. If the authorities had SPIRITUAL INSIGHT they would lock you up.
If I let you DIVERT me from what the BIBLE says in contrast to what the PROFESSIONAL THEATER people say then we would not be able to be DISIPLES and SYNAGOGUE with God in the human SPIRIT. Here is one take which connects slightly with the PROPHECY that the Judas types would MOCK Jesus musicially even on the cross:
The Judas Bag is PICTURED and DEFINED in graphic detail in hundreds of PORTRAITS on ancient pottery. The Judas Bag was for "carrying the mouthpieces of wind instruments." It was ALWAYS attached to a flute case and means "Speaking in tongues" and "of the world." Jesus SPOOKED Judas by the SOP which has the same meaning as MELODY. Judas was prophesied to try to TRIUMPH OVER Jesus in a musical sense.
I am still working on the following one but if you want to read the message Jesus pointed to when He said,'My God why hast..." you need to DISCIPLE yourself to Psalm 22 and shame, shame, shame on shepherd who muddy the water and fail to help you be DISCIPLES because DISCIPLES are Christians and stirring up the flesh is NEVER done by Christians to disciples. Never.
Still working on this one.
Ken: if you didn't intend to let Jesus REMIT your sins at baptism SO THAT you could become HIS Disciple then you may want to think about your baptism.
This message has been edited by ConcernedMembers from IP address 68.19.209.22 on Jan 3, 2004 9:07 AM
Dear brothers and sisters (those that are scripturally submissive that is!),
Heed the good word Ken is blessing us with. Lucifer (Zoe) goes around like a roaring lion seeking who he may devour (he may devour - alto). He is right as rain about the false teachers that continue to pervert the industrial carpeted aisles of God's churches (at least those without red carpet that symbolizes the Roman,pagan orgies that would take place between Badeomition tournements - which we now know as present day badminton).
I have seen first hand with my own eyes, even though I am a double amputee and have glaucoma, the wicked ways of Otter Creek and their minister John York. They present non-sbumissive women on stage, some dressed in red (remember red=pagan=orgy=badminton!)
I. Women should NEVER
1. Speak aloud in church.
IVI. Talk alound in church.
C. Hit the babies with the songbooks.
Ken is also right in his response to "Sacred Cow Dung"
We can NEVER hear the truth enough. Repetition is essential to guard against Lucifer (Zoe).
Ken is also right in his response to "Sacred Cow Dung".
We can NEVER hear the truth enough. Repetition is essential to guard against Lucifer (Zoe).
The Babaloyians did pervert the truth through the derivitive of Zoe which also corresponds to the Samarian "Zoeingo"... and trust me Bingo was NOT his name O!
"Help" follow my word, as well as Ken's, and flee the evil of Otter Creek, their "Zoe Ho's" and Lucifer's badminton playing, cabana boy John York before you are lost FOREVER!
Men like Rubel Shelly and John York specificially and probably ALL of the "doctors of the Law" peddling false information claim that God just TOLD THE STORY of the people within THEIR culture. Since they have discovered the profound secret that CULTURE changes they are going to let GOD PARTNER with them to derive A STORY to fit OUR EXPERIENCES WITH GOD.
Now, Martin Luther's Sola Fide or Faith Only is a fact. But, Luther knowing that we are not ABLE to PARTNER with God meant that even the SIMPLIEST of us can read the WORD of God, have faith in the REVELATION and be baptized because FAITH must have an object. It doesn't take to much to read and teach the word "as it has been taught." However, if you PRESUME to be a doctor of the law and TAMPER with the WORD you MUST understand that God has laid a TRAP for you in every major doctrine. If you GO BEYOND WHAT IS WRITTEN God is going to DELUDE you or make a BUFFOON out of you.
That is why the MEAT of the Word is written so that the DOCTORERS of the Word cannot even hear what is said without perverting it. Therefore, rather than a STORY, the Bible is full of ongoing PROPHETIC TYPES. For instance, notice how Jesus LUMPS those who reject baptism with CHILDREN who PLAY meaning that they are given to DIONYSUS worshipers just like the Jewish Clergy to whom Jesus would not EXPLAIN the meaning of GOSPEL.
THE LEADING INDICATOR:
And all the people that HEARD him, and the PUBLICANS, JUSTIFIED God, being baptized with the baptism of John. Luke 7:29 [i.e. did not call God a LIAR]
.....BUT the PHARISEES and LAWYERS rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being NOT BAPTIZED of him. Luke 7:30
It has always been Christ and the PEOPLE in MORTAL COMBAT with the Pharisees (Law changers, consumers of Widow's Living)
The DOCTORS of the LAW will become PSEUDO-GREEK SCHOLARS but they will HIDE the true musical/perversion background from you: That is their ASSIGNMENT as AGENTS. JESUS IDENTIFIES THE MEN AS PERVERTED MUSICAL PERFORMERS
And the Lord said, Whereunto then shall I liken the MEN of this generation? and to what are they like? Luke 7:31
They are like unto CHILDREN sitting in the MARKETPLACE (CDs, seminars, books as SCRIBES of the SECTARIAN HYPOCRITES), and calling one to another, and saying, We have PIPED unto you, and ye have not DANCED; we have mourned to you, and ye have not wept. Luke 7:32
For the SCHOLARS keeping you DUMB AND DUMBER, Jesus HIDES the truth from the false CLERGY and points the PEOPLE or those OF THE TRUTH to what ANY Greek Scholar knows but intends to HIDE from you. The MEN were like the CHORUS LEADERS or DAMSELS:
Paidion (g3813)pahee-dee'-on; neut. dimin. of 3816; a childling (of either sex), i.e. (prop.) an infant, or (by extens.) a half- grown boy or girl; fig. an IMMATURE CHRISTIAN: - (little, young) child, DAMSEL.
Pais (g3816) paheece; perh. from 3817; a boy (as often beaten with impunity), or (by anal.) a girl, and (gen.) a child; spec. a slave or servant (espec. a MINISTER to a KING; and by eminence to God): - child, maid (-en), (man) servant, son, young man.
Paio (g3817) pah'-yo; a prim. verb; to hit (as if by a single blow and less violently than 5180); spec. to STING (as a SCORPION): - smite, strike.
They USED the children as CHORUS LEADERS and often ABUSED THEM.
This is also the meaning of EXTERNAL MELODY.
Apollo, Abaddon or Apollyon (of Seeker-Center fame) unleashes the LOCUSTS. In the SECRET MESSAGE John is delivering to you MINIMAL FOUNDATION is that the locusts were MOTHER GODDESS worshipers who had offended HER and been sent to the netherworld. Now, resurrected LOCUST are musical performers. However,
And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be TORMENTED five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man. Re.9:5
THE DANCE they wanted to induce into JESUS was the:
Orcheomai (g3738) or-kheh'-om-ahee; mid. from orchos , (a row or ring); to dance (from the ranklike or regular motion): - dance
Greek with same meaning:
choreia 1 [choreuo]
I. a dance, esp. the CHORAL or round dance with its MUSIC, Eur., Ar.
II. a dance tune, Ar.
lur-oidia , hê, SONG to be sung to the LYRE
Bakchebakchon aisai sing the song (to BACCHUS) beginning with Bakche Bakche! [Which is like Lord, Lord in their "prophesying"]
> hallikos , e, on, of or for the phallos: to ph. (sc. melos) the phallic song, also a dance
> phallos 1 membrum virile, phallus, a figure borne in PROCESSION in the Bacchic orgies, as an emblem of the generative power in nature,
You can see lots of PHALLIC symbols in Nashville: there are FOUR which look like those worshipped by the ancient Jews.
> melos
I. a limb, Hom., etc.; meleôn entosthe within my bodily frame, Aesch.; kata melea LIMB by LIMB
II. a SONG, strain, Hhymn., etc.:--esp. of lyric poetry, en meleï poieein to write in lyric strain, Hdt.; melê, ta, lyric poetry, .....THE CHORAL SONGS, OPPOSED to the DIALOG, Plat.
Paul commanded SPEAKING, TEACHING, ADMONISHING in order to TEACH. Paul's PREACHING was DIALOG because LECTURES do not intend to teach but to MANIPULATE MINDS.
The Choral dance regularly appears with:
paizo
Trag. only pres.: ( [pais] ):--prop., PLAY like a child, SPORT, têi de th' hama Numphai
...4. play on a MUSICAL INSTRUMENT, h.Ap.206: c. acc., Pan ho kalamophthonga (played on the REED) paizôn, dance and sing,
See Apollo who is the DRIVER of the NEW STYLE WORSHIP MUSIC from hell.
"O Lord, Lycia is yours and lovely Maeonia [180] and Miletus, charming city by the sea, but over wave-girt Delos you greatly reign your own self.
Leto's all-glorious son goes to rocky Pytho, playing upon his HOLLOW LYRE clad in divine, PERFUNED garments; and his LYRE, [185] at the touch of the golden key, sings sweet. Thence, swift as thought, he speeds from earth to OLYMPUS, to the house of ZEUS, to join the gathering of the other gods:
....then straightway the undying gods think ONLY of the LYRE and SONG, and all the MUSES together, voice sweetly ANSWER voice , [190]
.....HYMN THE UNENDING GIFTS THE GODS ENJOY AND THE SUFFERING OF MEN, ALL THAT THEY ENDURE AT THE HANDS OF THE DEATHLESS GODS , AND HOW THEY LIVE WITLESS AND HELPLESS AND CANNOT FIND HEALING FOR DEATH OR DEFENCE AGAINST OLD AGE.
NOTE: the Babylon "gods" created mankind to perform RELIGIOUS RITUALS because the "gods" grew tired. Perhap's God's WORD also just ran its course.
"Meanwhile the rich-tressed Graces and cheerful Seasons dance with [195] HARMONIA and Hebe and Aphrodite, daughter of Zeus, holding each other by the wrist.
...And AMONG them sings one, not mean nor puny, but tall to look upon and enviable in mien, ARTEMIS who delights in ARROWS (like Cupid's), sister of Apollo. [200] Among them SPORT Ares and the keen-eyed Slayer of Argus, while APOLLO plays his LYRE stepping high and featly and a RADIANCE shines around him, the gleaming of his feet and close-woven vest. And they, [205] even gold-tressed Leto and wise Zeus, rejoice in their great hearts as they watch their dear son playing among the undying gods.
NOTE: these are the characteristics of LUCIFE or ZOE trying to TRIUMPH OVER (musically) the True Jehovah as the True Logos.
"When your father invited the gods to a very well-ordered banquet at his own dear Sipylus, in return for the meals he had enjoyed, then it was that the god of the splendid trident seized you,
...his mind overcome with desire, and carried YOU away on his team of golden horses to the highest home of widely-honored Zeus,
.....to which at a later time Ganymede came also, to perform the SAME SERVICE for Zeus.
Zeus-Dionysus was the Abomination in the Jerusalem Temple. The end time will be IDENTICAL the SINGERS and MUSICIANS will claim to lead you to the HIGHEST HOME of God but it is JUST a sexual sexperience!
We told you the UNIVERSAL UNDERSTANDING of religious singers and musicians: "They were the HAREM OF THE GODS." If you RAISE YOUR HANDS in one of these rituals you are, as the Vineyard (aka New Wineskins insists) HAVING SEX with some "god." But the SPIRIT is AN unholy spirit. THERE IS NO KNOWN EXCEPTION.
....But when you disappeared, and people did not bring you back to your mother, for all their searching, right away some envious neighbor whispered that they cut you limb from limb with a knife into the water's rolling boil over the fire, and among the tables at the last course they divided and ate your flesh.
WHEN you DARE TO DANCE with the gods, they USE and ABUSE you and then BURN YOU.
Ganymede was Apollo's CATAMITE. You remember, Jesus also asked:
"But what went ye out for to see? A man clothed in SOFT raiment? Behold, they which are gorgeously apparelled, and live delicately, are in kings courts. Lu.7:25
SOFT IS: Malakos (g3120) mal-ak-os'; of uncert. affin.; soft, i.e. fine (clothing); fig. a CATAMITE: - effeminate, soft.
Liddell and Scott malakos , e, on, soft:
....b. faint-hearted, COWARDLY
....c. MORALLY WEAK, lacking in SELF-CONTROL
....e. of MUSIC, soft, EFFEMINATE, m. HARMONIAI
IS THIS STILL THE AGE OF AQUARIUS?
"Upon hearing that Ganymede was to be CUP BEARER as well as Zeus' lover, the infinitely jealous Hera was outraged. Therefor Zeus set Ganymede's image among the STARS as the constellation AQUARIUS, the water carrier. Aquarius was originally the Egyptian god over the Nile. The Egyptian god poured water not wine from a flagon.
"All of Zeus' scandalous liaisons have ALLEGORICAL meanings. Zeus' torrid affair with Ganymede was a RELIGIOUS JUSTIFICATION for homosexuality within the Greek culture.
Before the popularity of the ZEUS and GANYMEDE myth spread,
...the only toleration for SODOMY was an EXTERNAL form of GODDESS WORSHIP. Cybele's male devotees tried to achieve unity with her by CASTRATING themselves and DRESSING like women.
"While Platonic love needed women for regeneration purposes (grow the attendance) ...the philosopher used this MYTH to justify his SEXUAL feelings towards his ALL MALE PUPILS.
Watch out for those NEW WARRIORS from PK on their PHALLIC JOURNEY. WHY would there be such a RUSH of 40,000 "clergy" to Atlanta to begin their PHALLIC JOURNEY? Why ELSE do "doctors of the law" CUNNINGLY HIDE and DENY the universal MARK of Music as the sign that Abaddon and his MUSIC have landed? Why do, in Paul's mind, LOVE TO BE FOOLED when the PERSONAE of PLAYING has always had a bad reputation? Is it to CALL OUT those under Lucifer, the singing and harp playing prostitute? The book of Revelation shows that those NOT DRIVEN OUT by the musical LOCUSTS (Muses under Apollyon) are PUNISHED by the "gods."
Remember, from above:
The Gods: "HYMN THE UNENDING GIFTS THE GODS ENJOY AND THE SUFFERING OF MEN, ALL THAT THEY ENDURE AT THE HANDS OF THE DEATHLESS GODS , AND HOW THEY LIVE WITLESS AND HELPLESS AND CANNOT FIND HEALING FOR DEATH OR DEFENCE AGAINST OLD AGE.
The OLD WIDOWS trusted their SHEPHERDS to be their SUPPORT SYSTEM and COMFORT in old age. But, he, he, he, haw, "we gonna INFILTRATE and DIVERT" them to ANOTHER STATION. But, our comfort? We gonna "teach, teach, teach" that the PLAYING CHILDREN are now in control.
The more PROGRAMS or MINISTRIES or even PYRAMIDAL ORGANIZATION CHARTS they have the MORE you must grasp that the end-time BABYLON WHORE (Rev. 18) has you IN THE GRIP OF HER GRUDGE.
MORE LATER on the MUSIC and certain mark of RELIGIOUS ADULTERY. It's in the BOOK and that is why probably ALL once Christian institutions have the DESPERATE TASK of TAKING AWAY THE KEY TO KNOWLEDGE. FOOL STILL LOVE TO BE FOOLED: THAT IS WHY THE TERM "REMNANT" does not include the MEGA-CHURCHES. Sorry about that but THERE IS NO EXCEPTION in the Bible, paganism, the Classics or church history.
Remember the PROPHETIC TYPE that the then and now false CLERGY and "SCHOLARS" were not INTENDED to understand is:
REPUDIATING baptism calls God a Liar because the Pharisees and doctors of the Law defended and defend the MUSICAL PLAY of children which HAS NO OTHER meaning but that the clergy intends to INDUCT you into SEXUAL worship of the "gods" or ZOE, the Mother of the Gods.
DON'T FORGET: The "consealed end-time prophecy" to TRIP UP those MARKED is that APOLLYON or APOLLO and HIS MUSES and INSTRUMENTALISTS are CLEARLY PROPHESIED. Why would the worst TROUBLERS in Church history decide at JUST THIS TIME to organize EXACTLY as John Prophesied?
THAT WORRIES ME A BIT but perhaps you DIDN'T hear the TRUMPET.
Ken,
This message has been edited by ConcernedMembers from IP address 68.19.209.22 on Jan 4, 2004 12:39 PM
Mooops I Did It Again,
I broke down and I'm responding to yet another Ken Special. Actually, I think I'm going to start doing what Ken does. If you've noticed, Ken says the same thing in every article he writes. For instance, if you ask him about any issue known to man, he brings up the use of instruments in the church. It's the same information over and over again.
Just curious though - really I am curious - can you show me in "the Bible" where God dislikes or hates the use of instruments as much as you do? Did you have a bad experience in highschool band? Did you get cut from chorus...you just seem to have an intense reaction to the "M" word (music) and the "I" word (instruments). Counseling might be an option. A 12 step program maybe. No really, I am taking you serious. When you do so, would you also compare the scriptures where we see instrument use - negatively and positively?
You sound like a scratched CD that continues to skip. Sorry, a CD - you know a compact disc - a broken record if you will.Ken, when was the last time you worshiped at the Creek? You also mentioned John York and Rubel Shelly, don't you mean John Shelly and Ruebel York, I hear they're good friends with Max Walling and Jeff Lucado - who you love to mention as well.
"You must advise the elders that you will not PAY for the youth minister because that is where most of the division is coming from. They are fueled from men like Max Walling who is advising the youth ministers that they might have to get out of the church of Christ if they cannot make changes." Remember Ken?
"Sometimes when people like York and Shelly claim to hear God's voice, AUDIBLY, they may have tuned in on the wrong channel." Ken, which channel are you tuned in to? But then again, you didn't claim to hear God's voice AUDIBLY.
Have you heard of followers that get lost? We all get lost sometimes Ken. Can you admit that that you've followed a rabbit down a hole that has no end?
You say Kenny, I say Lucifer.....where do you get these hairbrained ideas Kenny? Name one scripture and quit naming your other wordly sources for a change. You and Donnie and the almighty waddey are the only ones who post here anymore. I have to get my hip waders on to wade through the horse hocky you post here. You make no sense and like the previous poster says...you say the same thing over and over and over again. I don't even need to read your posts (and I don't) to get what you are saying. Same old horse hocky....
Literate Bible readers (those who have not already invited delusion through singy-clappy singers and preachers) grasp that:
Jesus said I will build my EKKLESIA. When the ekklesia (house or local members) ASSEMBLED Paul used a form of the word SYNAGOGUE.
Jesus also said MAKE DISCIPLES. The ONLY WAY one becomes a DISCIPLE is through two equal participles:
....BAPTIZING
.and
....TEACHING
A DISCIPLE is a CHRISTIAN or follower of whatsoever Jesus taught personally or revealed to the apostles.
Those who reject or minimize BAPTISM CANNOT BY DEFINITION be Christians and are, logically, ANTI-CHRISTIANS, traitors and still infidels.
If you REPUDIATE ME telling you EXACTLY what the Living Word reveald then you REPUDIATE God-Incarnate who made sure that as the SPIRIT OF CHRIST it was written down, in Peter's words, for our REMEMBRANCE. The Bible is the only MEMORY BANK of God who INVITES ALL but few are saved to move into the SPIRITUAL REALM. Baptism is the TEST of whether He will BEAM YOU UP or let you burn.
Jesus ADDS only BAPTIZED BELIEVERS to His synagogue or SCHOOL OF THE BIBLE. The word DISCIPLE precludes, outlaws and anethamatizes collecting WORSHIPERS in the perverted, musical sense of ALL PAGANS. By being BELIEVETH NOTS by rejecting BAPTISM Jesus says that they are TRAITORS and INFIDELS: you cannot TRUST any one minimizing BAPTISM because they are agents of the MAJORITY already discipled by SATAN.
When the assembly met they were called DISCIPLES which means STUDENTS. Paul's UNIQUE worship word is to GIVE HEED to the Word as students and observers of the DEATH of Christ where we do not do singy-clappy but GRIEVE with Him when He visits our assembly.
When Paul PREACHED he TAUGHT and DIALOGED or communed with his listeners.
The DISCIPLES were first identified as CHRISTIANS at Antioch. That is, the truth was OUTED that DISCIPLES made ONLY by Baptism and Teaching of those with faith, were CHRISTIANS or students of Christ.
Now the CONCERNED MEMBERS FORUM is a SCHOOL of the BIBLE and of CHRIST. ANYONE can TEACH as about any male could READ THE BIBLE in the synagogue. However, most people came to Synagogue or Christian assemmbly as STUDENTS.
If the PREACHER (without portfolio from God) is one of the FEW who teach in YOUR church, why don't you just GET UP THERE with the SAME authority the preacher has?
Donnie is a MASTER TEACHER of this SYNAGOGUE or School of the Bible. Paul's BEST word was not PREACH in the form of modern SOOTHSAYRS or SORCERIERS (rhetoricians, sOPHISts {serpents}, singers, musicians {locusts} and CRAFTSMEN or system makers (pyramid builders). Paul taught what he wanted to teach and DIALOGED or COMMUNED with the STUDENTS as they had questions. THE masses take what they want from this forum and leave the rest.
That a few HECKLERS or HEGLIANS try to STING Jesus the Living word by Stinging His Written Word, this makes the meaning of a SYNAGOGUE certain.
I join in and am TOLERATED because I back up what I say by the Bible. Where HEGELERS pipe in with THEY SAY such as the CHANELLERS at ACU "quoting" Martin Luther then I just have to join the DIALOG by saying: "No, everthing you say about Luther is taken from "scholarly books" written by scholars who STOLE from other "scholars" so the FIRST scholars wound ENDORSE the same lies quoted by the second to the hundrth "scholar." That is true because UNIVERSITIES don't care about TRUTH: they want you to SUPPORT their other liars and THEIR stolen once-Christian college.
Now, not may of you should be TEACHERS. I take that seriously and YOU get HEGELED back in return because YOU are a "BELIEVETH NOT" which Jesus identified as TREACHEROUS AND INFIDELS. The pseudo-clergy and "scholars" REJECTED the direct command of God thrugh John and the disciples of Jesus by NOT BEING BAPTIZED. That is the MARK of Christ, the Word and BAPTISM.
Music is without a doubt the MARK of the BEAST (Zoe etal.) CAIN means a MUSICAL NOTE. Cain's descendants were USED by Satan to form mixed sex choirs (teams), play instruments (without authority) and use sexual perversion to HOLD the fallen faithful captive in the dark valleys of CAIN where PAN (the perverted GOAT as the Revelation beast) had a more modern temple. The HORNS in revelation speak of MUSICAL INSTRUMENTS used by the MERRY BAND to CONFISCATE their own MOUNTAINS.
Ken, told by Jesus Christ to PREACH THE WORD beginning with Jeff.
I CAN SAY, LOST, LOST, LOST, LOST, A BITTER WAIL: ALMOST BUT LOST, LOST, LOST WITHOUT BAPTISM. IT ISN'T ABOUT RELIGION or "churching" in the pagan sense: IT IS ABOUT RECRUITING BY GOD and TRAINING for the next step: You wouldn't be comfortable in the presence of the LIVING WORD or Pure Spirit which is Holy Spirit: not body to stroke.
JESUS CHRIST ILLUSTRATED THE MEANING OF BAPTISM as CONVERSION
And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them, Matthew 18:2
And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted,and become (be born) AS little children,
ye SHALL NOT enter into the kingdom of heaven. Matthew 18:3
EVERYONE knew that this meant BAPTISM. Both proselyte baptism and DISCIPLE baptism to James the Fine Fabric Fuller demanded washing: This like Christian baptism, MARKED OUT those who MIGHT be treacherous enough to steal the FABRIC MANUFACTURING PLANT.
Using weasel words about Baptism is a way to REFUSE to confess whether there is TREASON in the heart of the person trained in their own "infiltrate and divert" university to lie, cheat and steal.
JESUS TOLD NICODEMUS THE SAME THING USING BORN AGAIN
Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mothers womb, and be born? John 3:4
The question is how can Nicodemus a grown man be BORN AGAIN. The new birth does not involve the physical birth. Therefore, to be born again is to be born of water which involves water baptism: we are born OUT of the water.
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, EXCEPT a man (already born of the flesh)
be born of WATER (H20) and of the SPIRIT,
.....he CANNOT ENTER into the kingdom of God. John 3:5
And there are three that bear witness in earth, the SPIRIT (the Word Jn 6:63), and the WATER, and the BLOOD: and these three agree in one. 1Jn.5:8
The spirit is the revealed Word of Christ (John 6:63)
That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of WATER by the word (SPIRIT), Ep.5:26
What shall we say of those who say that JESUS CANNOT SAVE by Max Lucado's "seeing creation and saying, 'wow'" CREED?
What part of SHALL NOT or CANNOT is so difficult to swallow? If I repeated the Word "as it has been taught" how can rational people define that as LEGALISTIC and JUDGMENTAL? They cannot unless they are trying to discredit the WOUNDED so that the HIRELINGS go free and self-justified.
This is the JUDAS COMPLEX: he indwelled with the UNHOLY spirit of the Devil would ATTEMPT to triumph over Jesus with MUSIC but he would fail. This was the hostile attack by the WARRIOR LEVITICAL MUSICIANS of the Jewish state.
Jesus has connected being CONVERTED to BEING BORN of water and the Spirit.
Palingenesia 1 [genesis] a being born again, new birth; used by Cic. of his restoration after exile:-- hence, in NTest.,1. the resurrection.
2. regeneration by BAPTISM.
....Anazogr-êsis , eos, hê, RESTORATION to life
Paul says that we are DEAD in sins, we must DIE to the sinful impulses, and we are MADE ALIVE in Jesus Christ. That meant when Jesus said it REGENERATION of the spirit making it A holy spirit.
Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. Rom 6:11
STILL DEAD, DEAD, DEAD, DEAD WITHOUT SPIRITUAL LIFE ONLY AT BAPTISM: the difference between heaven and hell. Don't blaspheme unless you are still LOST, LOST, LOST by minimizing baptism and calling God a Liar. Liars SPEAK ON THEIR OWN and are identified by Jesus as sons of the DEVIL.
That's it: poking fun is what is supposed to happen. The singy-clappy, hand waving (a sure MARK) SINGERS and MUSICIANS are servants of Lucifer or Zoe and they are trying as hard as their little infantile arms can wave to stand in the Holy Place to keep you from SEEING the Kingdom of God which "is within you." The ONLY place of worship, therefore, is WITHIN YOU. Jesus called the new PLACE the human SPIRIT where we meet God, the living Word as we commune, meditate or make melody with the Spirit "OF" Truth. Any of the noisey rituals are driven by SATAN who doesn't want to give you a microsecond alone with Christ in the SPIRIT. Not even in the Lord's Supper where we meet and remember Chrit who assembles with us to GRIEVE OUT a hymn lamenting the death of Christ and the fact that only a TINY REMNANT will shut their mouth to speak and listen IN THE HUMAN SPIRIT.
HEART, HEART, HEART, HEART OR SPIRIT, SPIRIT, SPIRIT the ONLY place God will even SEEK us to accept worship which in Paul's mind was to GIVE HEED to the Words of Christ in song and sermon. Wail, wail, that bitter wail you may be getting a running start just as the SATAN WORSHIPERS in Amos were dancing arount trying to bring down the DAY OF THE LORD which would, because of their irrevence invite God into their HEART but He is still a CONSUMING FIRE.
My point is not to minimize baptism at all. I am a Bible believing baptized member of Christ's body. I cherish my baptism and continually look back to that day that I was baptized. However, I was never taught that my baptism saved me. Now I know all of the verses that automatically pop up in your mind about baptism saving people. You know that the majority of the Christian world disagrees with this and historically, this has been the case as well.
My point is that when your focus is on baptism and NOT the Cross of Christ, something has been missed. I am not saying that you do not love the Cross of Christ, it just seems as if you are saying that there were two acts that saved you: Christ's death and your baptism.
If this is the case, then we do have a serious problem.
Slight problem with your statement: "majority of the Christian world diagrees" with baptism saving you.
If you try to remember what the Bible says about Jesus. Most of the world in his time refuted him, but yet he was still right.
Also if you say baptism is not essential to your salvation then Jesus is a Lier.
I cannot and will not believe that of Jesus.
I really appreciate sacred cows writings.
It's stunning how Mr Sublett ducks and dodges questions with the same old tired cliches that he believes works. My sources say he does not go to a church in Hohenwald Tennessee. Well, God bless him. I hope he spends as much time in prayer and study and daily reflection as he does arguing and pontificating.
Ken my friend, what would it look like if you used this energy and passion to go knocking on doors and sharing the love of Christ. I mean everybody seems to do it all wrong. But all I can see if you sitting there fussing and fuming but nobody seems to see you. Is this your idea of "go into all the world and spread the gospel" highlighting favorite scripture to people who know the Lord already. What about those that don't know the Lord. Is it your goal to get the church all fixed and fancy so THEN we can start evangalizing and doing it right and until then we need to go on and on. In the two minutes I've been writing somebody in Hohenwald perhaps died that you never met. Does that grieve you or are you itching to name call me and further mock this kind called Christian witness with your unkindness.
So you don't win people to the Lord all that often, huh.
You didn't need to answer. I already know.
Stay with him scared cow. I'm learning a lot as you walk into the temple speaking to the chief pharisee.
I did a pretty good job "preaching" to one in person yesterday and two more a bit less intense. I did one pretty long personal study today about the ROLE of elders and cult-like preachers plaguing the county.
I have counted in a long time but my guess is that I went 'into all the world' with maybe 10,000 looks just today. That yields a lot of short questions which I can handle easily.
One today with a request for a short summary of the APOLLO or APOLLYON and the MUSES now in the churches where the Apollo and all pagan gods were homosexual and the muses (musicians Rev 18:22) were filthy and dangerous prostitutes. I am doing some more for the MADISON thread where there is a lot which OUTS the ZOE (Lucifer) concept. That will agree with Jesus who quoted Isaiah and Ezekiel to define the MOUTH religion HYPOCRITES. Ezekiel identifies them as "speakers, singers and musicians."
Another one from France needing more info on the TERMINAL FALL because of Musical Idolatry at Mount Sinai: a good study so far.
I am fueling another men's study in Seattle with big time supply of material on Romans. And lots of smaller ones ALL DAY LONG with more hours than all of the Preacher you know who probably did dunkin donut preacher's conference today.
The Pharisees CHANGED and "improved" the law and religion so they could FLEECE widows. Since, I am not on the DOLE as a CORRUPTER (selling learning at retail) then I am neither, in the message of Peter, an adulterer or Pharisee. Can't be a Pharisee without being on the Dole and you cannot GET on the dole unless you can IMPROVE on Jesus. Can't be a HYPOCRITE unless you are a THEATRICAL PERFORMER in a religious sense. So, that leaves me out.
Quintus Horatius Flaccus: Bad men, when they avoid certain vices, fall into their opposite extremes.
The tribes of female flute-players,1 quacks, vagrants, mimics, blackguards;2 all this set is sorrowful and dejected on account of the death of the singer Tigellius; for he was liberal [toward them]. On the other hand, this man, dreading to be called a spendthrift, will not give a poor friend [5] wherewithal to keep off cold and pinching hunger.
All of these words point to the SORCERERS (Revelation 18) and to perverted PARASITES who would do ANYTHING to keep from honest work. Watch the Madison Thead. I have just begun some stuff on PSALLO that "homosexual, harp-plucking, young boy plucking" word or the WARFARE of Apollo. That is why Paul OUTLAWED all forms of singing (enchantment, witchcraft, sorcery) in the EXTERNAL SENSE. All of those PERFORMING ARTS define the meaning of DEMAGOGUE or TYRANT which points to CULT LEADERS: The Law of Giving makes the identity of a CULT absolute.
Remember this Pineyism which YOU cannot refute:
There is NO preacher and therefore NO preaching in the ekklesia or "school of Christ."
That means there is NO LAW OF PREACHING and means that there is NO LAW of listening to sick, silly sermonizing as an ACT of worship.
There is NO Law of Giving: Paul identified any kind of "coercion" such as his own presence as EXTORTION which is equated to adultery.
Therefore, the Theater for Holy entertainment by Sophists and Musicians is an UNFUNDED additon and you are a ROBBER for even hinting that people should pay for it.
There is NOT LAW of singing as an act of worship: we know from history that singing as an ACT of worship came about 400 years too late to be CHRISTIAN and about the same time preachers got on the DOLE from the State.
That is my RAW ASSERTION MANTRA and I intend to keep it up until I EXORCISE even more people of the GIVING DEMON and FREE them for the REST Jesus died to give which means STOP the preaching, stop the singing, stop the music stop it, stop it, stop it.
I CHARGE all such demonic beings in the name of Jesus Christ: begone! Out vile beasts. Don't go away mad JUST GO AWAY and quit your thieving HIDING of the Word of God.
One of the biggest discrepancies that is made with this site and piney.com is the use of Lucifer to refer to Satan when this is clearly a mistranslation by our friendly King James translators...here's the truth:
In Isaiah 14:12 we read the following in the KJV: "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning." The teaching that "Lucifer" is a name for "Satan" comes from the KJV. The Hebrew word here actually means "bright one," or "bringer of light." The word "lucifer" is simply the Latin translation of this Hebrew word. The mistake of the KJV translators was in not translating the Latin word into English. By leaving the Latin word in their version, the implication was left in the minds of a great many readers that it was a proper name. The text actually refers to King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon, although there may well be a secondary reference to Satan. The belief, mistakenly derived from the KJV's failure to translate this Latin word into English, that "Lucifer" is a proper name of the "prince of darkness" is so wide-spread that Webster's dictionary defines "Lucifer" as being another name for the being also known as "Satan."
So in actuality all the information about lucifer is wrong on this site since that's not a proper name for Satan. Amen and amen!
So you admit the information is false. Just because someone changed the meaning under the guise of a KJV translator...which in the future people took their false translation and turned it into a proper name.
The word Lucifer was later thought to be a proper name...long after the supposed sources on this site uses them to refer to music.
I will no longer post or read the drivel on this site. People were right...you're all nuts who need therapy.
Ken, Ken, Ken.
I do adore you so. It's intersting that you feel like you have been ordained to inform the past generations and generations to come of the evil that lerks around our church corners.
"So, I have to go on and on. Just say ZOE (Lucifer) and you define Otter Creek, Shelly, York, etal. Nuff sed?
There ARE new readers and OLD infidels so I have to repeat for each generation. Why do you singy-clappers say Lord lord (Hallelujah) 20 times?"
You see Ken, the problem is this. Well one of the problems that is, I know, and adore many friends who worship at the Creek. I'm sorry, but when I say or hear ZOE, I don't define them as Lucifer. Nuff sed? Of course not. You know it's not. You're a coward. With an intense blend of arrogance and ingnorance.
Are you so bold to know the hearts of so many that you have never met or worshipped with? Do you know my heart. I know, you're thinking I'm a coward too for describing myself as a sacred cow, and you're right, I fear if I were to reveal myself that it would only hurt our loving relationship.
Singy-Clappers. Right? Is that your lightening bolt to strike at my heart? Why do "we" say Lord, Lord 20 times? Shall I answer you. Here's just a few reasons to mention the Lord over and over again in a song of praise - if you hold the Old Testament as valid - you'll find ample evidence below.
Psalm 7:17
I will give thanks to the LORD because of his righteousness and will sing praise to the name of the LORD Most High. (He's always righteous - right?)
Psalm 9:1
I will praise you, O LORD , with all my heart; I will tell of all your wonders. (I can speak of his wonders without pausing - right?)
Psalm 9:2
I will be glad and rejoice in you; I will sing praise to your name, O Most High. (I'm glad, so I should rejoice)
Psalm 9:11
Sing praises to the LORD , enthroned in Zion; proclaim among the nations what he has done. (Proclaim to all nations what he has done? That could take a long time)
Psalm 21:13
Be exalted, O LORD , in your strength; we will sing and praise your might. (He is mighty)
Psalm 26:7
proclaiming aloud your praise and telling of all your wonderful deeds. (His wonderful deeds don't stop)
Psalm 30:4
Sing to the LORD , you saints of his; praise his holy name. (Does he have a holy name - yep he does)
Psalm 33:1
Sing joyfully to the LORD , you righteous; it is fitting for the upright to praise him. (Are you upright?)
Psalm 33:2
Praise the LORD with the harp; make music to him on the ten-stringed lyre. (Mooops, I bet this verse makes you sick to your tummy)
Psalm 35:28
My tongue will speak of your righteousness and of your praises all day long. (All day long? That's a lot)
Psalm 43:4
Then will I go to the altar of God, to God, my joy and my delight. I will praise you with the harp, O God, my God. (Mooops, I did it again)
Psalm 44:8
In God we make our boast all day long, and we will praise your name forever. Selah (All day long again?)
Psalm 45:17
I will perpetuate your memory through all generations; therefore the nations will praise you for ever and ever. (There are your generations and mine)
Psalm 47:6
Sing praises to God, sing praises; sing praises to our King, sing praises. (Sing praises - that's a good song)
Psalm 52:9
I will praise you forever for what you have done; in your name I will hope, for your name is good. I will praise you in the presence of your saints. (I will praise you forever? WOW!)
Psalm 61:8
Then will I ever sing praise to your name and fulfill my vows day after day. (Day after day? - see a pattern yet?)
Psalm 71:8
My mouth is filled with your praise, declaring your splendor all day long. (All day?)
Psalm 78:4
We will not hide them from their children; we will tell the next generation the praiseworthy deeds of the LORD , his power, and the wonders he has done. (And those generations again!)
This is just a few as you know. I'm sure you won't post this though.
Sounds to me like saying Lord Lord, 20 times doesn't cut it. All day long, forever, praising your name, epsecially to generations to come so that they'll remember his works and deeds, his power and wonders! Sounds to me like I have more than enough to be thankful for, day in and day out, in fact enough to last me a lifetime. Again, is 20 times enough, I doubt it. It's sad that you would be threatened by such praise.
You see this redundant material is requested and expected.
Your redundant material - it's a bit different to say the least.
You do remember Daivd don't you. A man after God's own heart. He made some mistakes. But he praised the Lord to the end of his days. In fact recorded most of what you read above.
Ken, you should try saying Lord Lord more than 20 times a day, it just might change your life. - But then again you'd have to start another web site and then all your "web friends" might be mad at you - right?
Just curious, are you mad because you hear us singy-clappers, repeat praises over and over again. What else should I be doing? How else should I be singing and praises the Lord. Please include instructions for me to praise - I and a few others must have missed something.
Sacred Praising Cow
Wishing you a Moooooey Christmas - Do you celebrate Christmas?
Now, singy clappy, all you have to do is to prove that David was a WORSHIP LEADER. He was the KING (if you remember the card classes) and with the COMMANDERS of the ARMY organized surplus Levitical Warrior Panic sounders (like surplus Phds) to give glory to the King and to the TEMPLE STATE which was a LIKE THE NATIONS pagan temple.
David only LED the congregation of the PEOPLE twice and he got so excited that he went naked with the camp following slave girls. He ROSE UP TO PLAY in the same sense that the Israelites engaged in musical idolatry at Mount Sinai. The same word is used of Samson who GROUND in the king's house and that wasn't grinding CORN. Kno wat I mean?
What was said of David was said of the FIRST WAYS OF DAVID and not about his LATTER ways. If God approved him as a WORSHIP LEADER then why wouldn't He approve him as an adulterer, murderer and ALL of the sins. God had AMOS reprove David if you have ears.
Psalm 33 is the only INSTRUMENTAL PSALM which does not have some destructive or even hate or superstitious meaning. I have tabulated the Psalms and most are "singing" which was not four part harmony but probably a four note unison chant. Here is the table:
http://www.piney.com/MuArndt.html
NO singer and NO instrumentalists went into the Holy Place. This was typical of the Body of church of Christ with the bread, the menorah or the seven spirits of Christ the branch giving light and the INCENSE altar where we approach God in PERSONAL prayer and go boldly into the Throne Room. This is the ONLY place in a spiritual religion where we WORSHIP one at a time in darkness and quietness like the CLOSET Jesus commanded.
The singers and musicians were SERVING (meaning hard bondage and a word like Abaddon) the priests ONLY. The priests could not have survived the blood, urine, dung, guts, burning flesh and the bleeding TYPES of the innocent Lamb of God without a loud NOISE. Psalm 41 prophesied that Judas would try to musically mock (triumph over) Jesus but Jesus gave him the MARK (sop, like melody) of the SOP and caused him to SELF-DESTRUCT. Music came with Lucifer who IS ZOE and other names. The PRAISE word you love means to MAKE SELF VILE in the belief that God couldn't punish the INSANE or MAD in Corinth. Any time you see people silencing the songs and sermons of God through the Spirit of Christ you MUST be mad to think that you can get away with it when the UNIQUE worship word in the Spiritual kingdom is to GIVE HEED to the word and songs of Christ.
If a SINGER or MUSICIAN or a singy-clappy fellow ventured into the TYPE of the church of Christ he would be instantly executed. Not in the VILEST pagan temples did the MUSICIANS (the harem of the gods) ever enter into the holy precincts where their "gods" were believed to meet the priests. Not even in Jezebel's "church" where homosexuality bound the spirit and flesh together could a modern PRAISE SINGER enter into her temple or "church."
The PEOPLE were quarantined from the Temple when the sounders (not musicians) sounded. They were put OUTSIDE THE COURT. The "people's congregation" assembled as CALLED beginning as the Qahal or "church in the wilderness." Blowing the alarm trumpets and "making a joyful noise before the Lord" was OUTLAWED. That was the Levitical "Musicians" Warrior's chant. It was intended to turn the enemy into COWARDS. I think that this is still the PURPOSE: to silence those not willing to engage in "the idolatry of talent." MUSIC says to Jesus that the Psalms (commanded by Paul) inspired by the SPIRIT OF CHRIST are NOT good enough so WE have to mediate or lead the worshipers into the presence of God. That IS NOT WORSHIP: it is Anti-biblical and Anti-Christian worship found in all ancient pagan worship.
You have 100% of the Bible, church history, the Babylonian literature, the classical writers and denominational founders against you. They were ALL wise enough to be able to COMPREHEND that the words TEACH AND ADMONISH with the "inspired text" was NOT remotely related to even the simple MUSIC of the time. The singing and melody were BOTH understood to be IN THE HEART (remember Paul?). People were convinced that if you cannot COMPOSE a plan of salvation out of your head you assuredly cannot approach God without using the WORDS He supplied us to TEACH and COMMUNE.
What you guys are promoting is NOT CHRISTIANITY which makes DISCIPLES (you know, STUDENTS) and not RITUALISTIC performing artists to perform for the "audience" or even lead the "audience." YOU SIMPLY CANNOT JUSTIFY IT WITHOUT AGREEING WITH THE DLU GUYS AND "TAKE LIBERTIES" AND EVEN LIE ABOUT THE BIBLE.
If MUSIC (not a Biblical concept) doesn't condemn you the MASSIVE and deliberate sowing of discord, breaking up churches, families and bringing on the churches greatest TRIBULATION in the modern world will do it. It is all TRAFFICK which was what Satan tried in heaven and indwelling the Kings of Tyre and Babylon.
Ken,
You really shouldn't title your response with such a classic line from a Monty Python movie, you really lose the sense of seriousness after such an intro.
"Now, singy clappy, all you have to do is to prove that David was a WORSHIP LEADER. He was the KING (if you remember the card classes) and with the COMMANDERS of the ARMY organized surplus Levitical Warrior Panic sounders (like surplus Phds) to give glory to the King and to the TEMPLE STATE which was a LIKE THE NATIONS pagan temple."
You tickle me Ken. Prove that David was a WORSHIP LEADER? Shall I fall into such a feeble trap PHARISEE! You have already assumed far too much about me. You assume that I'm ready for or alreay have instruments in my church. I'm not and I don't. However, I don't share in your rediculous notions of instruments being of or from the devil himself. They are not and will not be the demise of the church. They're not of the devil, prove that God hates them, prove anything you say about instruments and stop with the stupid web links to nonsense.
"You have 100% of the Bible, church history, the Babylonian literature, the classical writers and denominational founders against you. They were ALL wise enough to be able to COMPREHEND that the words TEACH AND ADMONISH with the "inspired text" was NOT remotely related to even the simple MUSIC of the time. The singing and melody were BOTH understood to be IN THE HEART (remember Paul?). People were convinced that if you cannot COMPOSE a plan of salvation out of your head you assuredly cannot approach God without using the WORDS He supplied us to TEACH and COMMUNE."
Against me? Which Bible are you reading? The inspired text? Which one was that? Do you remember Paul? How can you quote him and not know him from his own words? You have no intention of teaching anyone material worth learning nor do you have a sense of what it is to commune.
I have asked you again and again to give an alternative to everything mentioned in this wasted space on the internet you call a web domain. Blasphemy you said? "David only LED the congregation of the PEOPLE twice and he got so excited that he went naked with the camp following slave girls. He ROSE UP TO PLAY in the same sense that the Israelites engaged in musical idolatry at Mount Sinai. The same word is used of Samson who GROUND in the king's house and that wasn't grinding CORN. Kno wat I mean?"
You sound more like a dirty old man venting his tention, kno wat I mean?
So lets go to LaGard who you know so well. If youth ministers are taking money from honest evangelists and right beside us are pulpit ministers who are no more scriptural than we are, right along with church buildings, and comfortable pews, beautiful lighting, microphones, and yes song leaders, worship leaders what ever, shall I go on...You ask me to prove David was WORSHIP LEADER, I should know he was a KING from the card class right? I suppose card classes were power point presentations in your day right? Were card classes scriptural?
Jesus told them to destroy the temple and that he'd raise it up in three days. His body right?
Then there's your Paul, who you like to quote a bit; he said that our body was the temple right?
He goes on to say, honor God with our body then. Right?
Did they worship in the temple? Was it not a Holy Place? But yet, because of Jesus our body is the temple right? Therefore what Ken? Come on, didn't they teach you this in card classes?
Can I sit here and prove David was a worship leader? Well do you mean the posistion that we've created in our churches? Like communion leaders? In two catagories of course, those who serve and those who preside. Or do you mean was his body a temple and because of that his life was worship, therefore he is a worship leader and he has all the more reason to praise the Lord over and over again - just like you and just like me - are we not all worship leaders or am I just twisting words, proof-texting if you to make it say what I want it to? Uh Oh, what about women, are their bodies temples too? Then are they worship leaders by the way they lead and eximplify God through their temples?
Does your church have a song leader, those who lead in open prayer and do you have communion leaders? Do you have a preacher? Do you worship in church building? How is what you do any safer that what I do? What do you suggest Ken?
Do things change with time? Does worship change with time? You claim it doesn't and shouldn't. Remember: "If a SINGER or MUSICIAN or a singy-clappy fellow ventured into the TYPE of the church of Christ he would be instantly executed. Not in the VILEST pagan temples did the MUSICIANS (the harem of the gods) ever enter into the holy precincts where their "gods" were believed to meet the priests. Not even in Jezebel's "church" where homosexuality bound the spirit and flesh together could a modern PRAISE SINGER enter into her temple or "church.""
I would be instantly executed! Would you not? Probably not, you'd sell your soul for thirty pieces of silver so wouldn't be labled a singy-clappy fellow wouldn't you?
Do you chant in your worship service? Do things change with time? "Any time you see people silencing the songs and sermons of God through the Spirit of Christ you MUST be mad to think that you can get away with it when the UNIQUE worship word in the Spiritual kingdom is to GIVE HEED to the word and songs of Christ."
Do you sing the same songs that were chanted back then? Or do you sing the songs that many other writers besides that of the church of Christ brothers wrote? Is your song book an "only church of Christ song book?" O, song books...are they scriptural?
"MUSIC says to Jesus that the Psalms (commanded by Paul) inspired by the SPIRIT OF CHRIST are NOT good enough so WE have to mediate or lead the worshipers into the presence of God. That IS NOT WORSHIP: it is Anti-biblical and Anti-Christian worship found in all ancient pagan worship."
Where did you get this profound statement? PROVE ANY OF YOUR MATERIAL! You can't!
"What you guys are promoting is NOT CHRISTIANITY which makes DISCIPLES (you know, STUDENTS) and not RITUALISTIC performing artists to perform for the "audience" or even lead the "audience." YOU SIMPLY CANNOT JUSTIFY IT WITHOUT AGREEING WITH THE DLU GUYS AND "TAKE LIBERTIES" AND EVEN LIE ABOUT THE BIBLE."
"If MUSIC (not a Biblical concept) doesn't condemn you the MASSIVE and deliberate sowing of discord, breaking up churches, families and bringing on the churches greatest TRIBULATION in the modern world will do it. It is all TRAFFICK which was what Satan tried in heaven and indwelling the Kings of Tyre and Babylon."
Which guys am I? I am a DLU guy. However the only liar I see is the proof-texting, retired engineer, who is full of condemnation and the kind of discord that is specifically mentioned in our Bible. Music is not a Biblical concept? What part of your worship on Sunday morning is? Is Sunday night a Biblical concept, is Wednesday? Music is no more breaking up churches, and after all the family research I've done for years, it's certainly not breaking up familis - what a stupid comment. Just like we should out law guns because of what happened at Columbine right? Just like we should sue those who manufacture fertilizer becuause it's used in making bombs. You are truly a NUT-CASE. Man I'd love analyze your past, your parents, your family and your current state of mind. You are an incredible case study for research. Forget what I said about counseling, you've missed that opportunity, lets start with medication.
Just curious? Does worship change with time? Do you still sacrafice animals? How many animals were sacraficed in the temple? They were an offering to God right - a part of worship? Were more than 20 animals sacraficed in a day? Surely not. Surely there were church of Christ / Ken Sublet bi-laws that said you were only entitled so many.
Music is not the issue Ken. You have serious chip on your shoulder regarding music. The a drummer steal your first girlfriend. Or were you raised like Pavlov's dogs?
Who was Ivan Pavlov?
Ivan Pavlov was a Russian physiologist that is renowned for his landmark study on conditioning. He conducted this hallmark study during the twentieth century. The interesting thing about this study was the fact that Pavlov was not even studying the effects of conditioning when he launched the study.
He was actually studying the physiological effects of eating in the dogs. He began by studying digestion, but Pavlov began to observe that the salivation of the dogs was very curious. He would place meat powder or some other food morsel on the dog's tongue, waiting for the salivation to occur.
He began to see that the dogs were salivating as soon as he entered the room, which was before any food was even in sight. Since salivation in any animal is a reflex, Pavlov decided to probe deeper into the conditioning of the dogs. This later became known as classical conditioning.
I have heard about Pavlov's dogs. What is so significant about this study?
Pavlov's study is also known as Pavlovian conditioning. This study is one of the most used studies in classical conditioning. Conditioning is a type of learning. Basically, what this study proved was that the dogs became conditioned by Pavlov to have expectations. When he entered the room, the dogs expected food; therefore, they began salivating in expectation. After he noticed that the meat powder had this effect, he decided to try a different neutral stimulus.
What is a neutral stimulus?
A neutral stimulus is something that normally would not produce any salivation. Pavlov chose to ring a bell since ringing a bell would not normally produce salivation in the dogs.
Pavlov began ringing a bell before placing the meat powder or item on the dog's tongue. Each and every time that the bell was rung, meat powder or food was given to the dog. Pavlov repeated these experiments many, many times. Eventually, the bell alone was enough to make the dogs salivate. This proved that a neutral stimulus that elicited no response whatsoever from the dogs before was now causing a response- salivation.
What did this prove?
Pavlov's experiment proved that all animals could be trained or conditioned to expect a consequence on the results of previous experience. For example, a child that is always given a cookie by a particular teacher will begin to expect that cookie every single time that they see the teacher. If the teacher always says the word 'yummy' before giving the cookie, the child will become conditioned to expect the cookie after hearing the word. The children would even begin to salivate at the appearance of the teacher or the word yummy after repeated conditioning.
YOU HAVE BEEN WELL CONDITIONED KEN KEN.
IF YOU WANT TO HAVE KEN SALIVATE JUST RING HIS BELL.
Now I am sure that you are a preacher: you know, moolah.
n : informal terms for money [syn: shekels, gelt, dough, bread, dinero, lucre, loot, pelf, cabbage, kale]
Mollah \Mol"lah\, n. [Ar. maul[=a], commonly moll[=a]in Turkey.] One of the higher order of Turkish judges; also, a Turkish title of respect for a religious and learned man. [Written also moolah.]
I have picked out Psalm 78 although I could have picked Psalm 106 or Acts 7 which tell the same story. See how Rubel Shelly takes the condemnation and turns it into praise:
Now, look at Psalm 78. This is my quick morning exercise just to let you see the whole psalm as THE SPIRIT OF CHRIST gave it to you to warn about musical worship:
Remember that Psalms are divided into five books corresponding to the Torah and more. This is a POETIC version of the PROSE HISTORY. We know that the Jews began RECITING (not music) the PROSE history but later began to use the poetic version: poems tend to be poetic so watch out. The purpose was never ritual worship but to TEACH and ADMONISH. Only the Word as it has been delivered conveys the Spirit or Mind of Christ. When you read it it becomes the ORACLE OF GOD. "Talent" is useable ONLY in ministry or service or slavery on behalf of the destitute.
You will also remember that Jesus refused to speak to the Jerusalem "jews" who were infected by the Kenites or Cainites. He said that God had hidden truth by the use of parables FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD. That might give the Flat Earth Ministry pause. Now, Asaph says:
I will open my mouth in a PARABLE: I will utter dark sayings of old: Psalm 78:2
Parable does not mean MYTH but a mystery language which can only be grasped in the DARK and SILENT human spirit as it communes with God who IS all or "holy" spirit and WILL NOT DANCE with Jeff Walling and the Thespians who have taken over the temples.
Mashal (h4912) maw-shawl'; appar. from 4910 in some orig. sense of superiority in mental action; prop. a pithy maxim, usually of a metaphorical nature; hence a simile (as an adage, poem, discourse): - byword, like, parable, proverb.
Chiydah (h2420) khee-daw'; from 2330; a puzzle; hence a trick, conundrum, sententious maxim: - dark saying (sentence, speech), hard question, proverb, riddle.
Now, YOU have been suckered by the CONUNDRUM but those OF THE SPIRIT can instantly discern that Asaph was not COMMANDING a ritualistic PRAISE SERVICE. You were SUPPOSED to grasp that the nation of Israel forfeited the grace of God by MUSICAL IDOLATRY at Mount Sinai and for their whole lives. When people want to get your BODY to "worship" they HAVE NOT offered their body on the "altar" to be consumed so that they MAY worship God which happens ONLY in the new PLACE of the human spirit.
A holy spirit
is OUR spirit MADE HOLY only at baptism where we REQUEST A clear conscience or consiousness so that we can understand the deep, spiritual mysteries.
CHURCH of our times INTENDS to keep the truth of the whole Bible from their children because the "Devil made them do it." Here are some clues:
Which we have HEARD and KNOWN, and our fathers have TOLD us. Psalm 78:3
We will NOT hide them from their children,
shewing to the generation to come the praises of the Lord, [Gag! please don't see this as a Thespian worship ritual.]
and his strength,
and his wonderful works that he HATH DONE. Psalm 78:4
PRAISE is NOT singing erotic "songs" telling others about MY WONDERFUL experiences with God: Praise of Billy Bob Bumpkin says: "BBB makes the best hamburger in town."
For he ESTABLISHED a TESTIMONY in Jacob, and appointed a law in Israel, which he COMMANDED our fathers,
that they should MAKE THEM KNOWN to their children: Psalm 78:5
"That the generation to come MIGHT KNOW them,
even the children which should be born; who should arise and DECLARE them to their children: Psalm 78:6
If ANY of the BEAST (Zoe) churches had ever even read Psalm 78 and 106 and the account of the Mount Sinai event they WOULD NOT preach it as a PATTERN FOR CHRISTIAN WORSHIP AND COMMUNITY.
God is still HIDING truth by His permissive will in allowing the THESPIANS to do everything in their little pointy heads to KEEP you from ever hearing the story of the Old Testament. I say that you STILL cannot grasp that MUSIC or ritualistic PRAISE SINGING is one of the oldest, pagan, superstitions. In ALL of history the theatrical performers actually want you to believe that they can ASSIST God to keep failure away.
Rubel Shelly and Randy Harris promote the AZTEC PATTERNISM where the 52 year and 52 week JUBILEE prevented the failure of the Gods. Just like Purpose Driven the Aztec slippd in, planted a corn crop, so that when JUBILEE TIME came they could return and do a HOLOCAUST on the OWNERS. So what, they were willing to sacrifice up to 20,000 people during JUBILEE in order to CERTIFY themselves as the GOD SAVERS.
Psalms, Hymns and Spiritual songs are NOT the produce of Zoe: they are a record to be TAUGHT to our children. That is why Paul said SPEAK to ONE ANOTHER. The purpose is to TEACH AND ADMONISH one another. History knows that all three forms are THE INSPIRED history frequently written in a poetic form to make LEARNING THE TEXT easier. If YOU could write your POETIC version then YOU could write your PROSE version and that is exactly what Rubel Shelly, Max Lucado etal CLAIM for themselves.
The grumble at lipscombunderground is that being from OTTER CREEK trumps seniority and experience in assigning student leadership roles. John O. Yorks site at:
http://johnyork.faithsite.com/
Reveals the PATTERNISM of many churches of Christ which have the inside track to LIPSCOMB. Steve Flatt was, after all, a founding father of the Jubilee and became one of the members of the latter CORPORATION. Just because they bounce some false teachers who are TOO HOT TO HANDLE does not mean that they will not USE others who are more likely to attract than repel those who claim to still be "faithful." ACU still features Max Lucado.
First, John touts the JESUS PROPOSAL which is from a series of sermons by--Who? Why, by John O. York used by Rubel Shelly, which is TRAFFICKING in the sermons preached for pay--with or without a dispensation from the elders.
John York: "How do I make sense of Jesus going back and forth, back and forth between Galilee and Jerusalem in John's account
...when he NEVER goes to Jerusalem in Matthew, Mark, and Luke until the very end of his ministry?
...But that's NOT the WITNESS, the testimony John wants me to confirm.
What I am called to affirm with the witness
..of MY OWN LIFE is that AUTHENTICATING Spirit-presence
...that REVEALS ITSELF when I keep heaven's commandments here on earth, live the from-above life in my down-below setting.
Rubel Shelly John York The Jesus Proposal: The Jesus Project:
Here is what God wants churches passionate about:
(1) "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, (2) that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life" (John 3:16).
"Rubel Shelly John York The Jesus Proposal: Paul even uses a JEWISH LEGEND about the water actually following the people around in the desert
..to say that Christ himself was present with those people just like he is with the Corinthians. They were hemmed in on all sides by God and God-activity.
However B.S. (before shelly), Scripture continued to say:
.."And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. 1Co.10:4
There is a lot more Otter Creek, Lipscomb, Woodmont Heresy here:
http://www.piney.com/RsJesusProposalI.html
There are three parts but they are all Post-Biblical, Post-modern and Post-Christendom. Everyone should grasp that you cannot MERGE WITH THE WORLD by becomming a UNIVERSITY without betraying your OLD, pre-theft owners. But, how many applauded as they saw the PREACHER FACTORIES being dragged into the woods by the very WOLVES wearing still-wet SHEEP'S SKINS?
Have you even read the Jesus Proposal? Or did the book just give you another reason to hack on those folks again? I'll give you props for at least getting their names right this time. Ken you really need a massage, or some aroma therapy - you seem so tense and stressed in all of your messages. Do you have mad-cow symtoms? You get that from eating your own king you know.
Enjoy the day Ken.
Rubel Shelly and John York "preached" these Bible-distorted messages. However, they claimed that the elders had given them permission to WRITE them on company time and then PUBLISH them. Scribes are linked with Pharisees and the SECTARIAN Hypocrites (singers, speakers, actors for pay) by Jesus.
Now, my little moonbeam reflecting Shelly Light from the ZOE group, in CONTRAST to all of the Slaves of the Watchtowers,I READ the sermons and then just place the straight stick of the Bible alongside the crooked paths of most sermonizers. You cannot HEAR or COMPREHEND in the presence of a confessed "charismatic" preacher. You cannot HEAR and do not PLAN to hear when the logical (spiritual) brain has been CLOSED UP by "music" which tickles all of your PLEASURE PALACES and so HURTS you that your body RUSHES to supply morphine-like endorphins to KILL THE PAIN with enough left over that the MUSICAL MEDIATORS and manipulative speakcers replacing Jesus Christ can sell you the idea that they JACKED YOU UP into the presence of the gods and you had a "knowing" experience with Him. That is Satanic (Luciferian) and VERY superstitious paganism. Sure, the MOST ENLIGHTENED urbans are the FIRST to fall into a totally CRUSHED charismatic brain.
Therefore, I posted a REVIEW of the preached "book" and repudiated the JESUS PROPOSAL long before it was being TRAFFICKED: and lots from all over the world have read them. Remember that Max Lucado confesses to finding a CATCHY THEME. Then, he buys up books on the subject and puts the stuff in a sqirmy way which appeals to those unable to read the truth. The JESUS PROPOSAL will already have had lots of advertising. You, know, like Jubilee promoted by the POPE.
I NEVER review anything which has not been PUBLISHED. I tell the TRUTH and you cannot and will not review my review and refute it without taking Shelly's advice to TAKE LIBERTIES with the old words of Jesus.
Show me a musical or charismatic performance so-called 'WORSHIP' service and I will show you where some of the COW-s of Bashan have promoted the NEW WINESKIN and music to STARVE the people of the WORD as it has been written. Don't depend on me, just read the sermons and you will find that they claim to be POSTMODERN which is post-Biblical and post-Christiandom.
If you love the Living Word you will love the Written Word. And that is why you are putting your trust in people who PUBLISH and sow discord all over the world.
If you think that testing the spirits and refuting what none of the TITHERS or GIVERS of wages can even HEAR in the aura of bigness, is wrong then just too bad, buster.
It is hard for these people to open their mouth without badmouthing "conservatives." The NEW STYLE Jubilee is BUILT ON THE FOUNDATION of JUDGEMENTALLY CREATING A NEW SECTARIANISM which would COLLAPSE without the non-instrumental churches of Christ to CONDEMN to hell. That foundation was laid when the conservative or Bible-based preachers would not ENDORSE Rubel Shelly's false teachings. My suspicion is that it is the most massive, expensive, divisive GET EVEN effort in church history against those who have FIRED the Grace-Centered stable. NO ONE would hire them so they are forced, like Max Lucado in San Antonia, to attempt to become the MOTHER CHURCH of the city. Certainly no Baptist would hire people so anti-Biblical with proven disloyalty for taking a wage to SUBVERT a peacable kingdom. The Disciples will USE the disloyal but they WOULD NOT put them on their RETIREMENT PLAN. After all, Jesus used a word which makes those who repudiate baptism as TREACHEROUS and as INFIDELS.
People who repudiate baptism FOR the remission of sins call God a LIAR. If they feel the NEED to get the tiny circle of PROMOTERS to push their silly books so that we will promote your books then A TINY FEW have the same right to say that IT IS ALL SCHOLARLY nonsense. In the Christian world of ETHICS, the VOCATIONAL teachers trump the GET RICH teachers who KNOW that TRUTH will not TRAFFICK.
It PEDDLES or TRAFFICKS because they know that the masses have been disabled by years of turning the SCHOOL OF THE BIBLE into "theaters for holy entertainment." I am truly sorry but I don't have the time or ability to write 5 second sound bytes for the CRIPPLED LAMBS.
The job of the LOCUSTS (musical performers) and fallen angels is to put ALL of the big church members to sleep so that they CANNOT hear the word. The HEARERS have already been driven out. There is NO MERCY to the LED any more than there is for the BLIND LEADERS. If a person CAN be sucked into this silliness you call "worship" they they are not, in the words of Jesus, OF THE TRUTH. "Believeth nots" are "baptized nots" because they HATE Spiritual truth.
I just naturally get TENSE (past, perfect, future) when banditos break in and steal. I remember returning from church in Seattle one Wednesday night and recognizing that I had been burgled, got that tense feeling people describe as being RAPED. When the loving christians stole the church house of widows after I left I got that same FEELING of being raped. Seems the preacher, musicians and mother hen came to Jubilee and the Zoe group and learned how to GRADUALLY lie, cheat and steal to BURGLE a whole church: one of the FIVE out of 13,000 the ZOE or Lucifer group has been able to subvert.
God said something like "getting pregnant on straw
Now, they have hit little Hohenwald and all of a sudden they CANNOT speak the truth about any of the Bible. When people BURGLE the normal advice is to LEAVE rather than to fight. I picked the quietest place on earth to retire and THEY have been on the Jubilee, Purpose Driven and Promise Keeper's MORTAL ATTACK for the duration. Isn't there an end time statement which says that they seek to WEAR OUT THE SAINTS?
I am tense because the STAFF INFECTION has decided, advised by Rubel Shelly, to become LOCATED MISSIONARIES. Lord help us, some churches have hired MISSIONARIES IN RESIDENCE. The LABOR LADEN by the Jewish clergy on the people--used like pack animals--was and is "spiritual anxiety created by religious rituals."
CHURCH is the LARGEST dispenser of spiritual anxiety without which the AUDIENCE would not get suckered by the LAW OF GIVING and of TITHING. That is why CHURCHES are bringing down the wrath of the country on "christiaity."
Isaiah 33:10 Now will I arise," says the LORD."Now will I be exalted; now will I be lifted up.
Isaiah 33:11 You conceive chaff, you give birth to straw; your breath (SPIRIT) is a fire that consumes you.
That is the SPIRIT by which God BAPTIZES MOST while He baptizes a TINY REMNANT with A holy spirit ONLY at water baptism.
Isaiah said: "You get pregnant on chaff and bring forth straw." That eases my tension greatly. When I recognise that the FIRE SPIRIT comes out of the mouths of false teachers I just wait around for the HOLY FIRE the ACU guy and Zoe are calling down.
My mom said that I work so hard to complete every task because I was basically lazy. But, praise the Lord, I don't pay for no MUSICAL MEDIATORS to replace Jesus Christ NO MO, NO MO. That lets me sleep like a baby when I have rushed through the cities and dusted my feet and received my WAGE of being despised by the TRAFFICKERS.
"My mom said that I work so hard to complete every task because I was basically lazy. But, praise the Lord, I don't pay for no MUSICAL MEDIATORS to replace Jesus Christ NO MO, NO MO. That lets me sleep like a baby when I have rushed through the cities and dusted my feet and received my WAGE of being despised by the TRAFFICKERS."
Now I'm beginning to see where your issues originated from.
Like you're rushing through cities dusting your feet. You're lazy remember and retired. So why rush anywhere?
"I just naturally get TENSE (past, perfect, future) when banditos break in and steal. I remember returning from church in Seattle one Wednesday night and recognizing that I had been burgled, got that tense feeling people describe as being RAPED. When the loving christians stole the church house of widows after I left I got that same FEELING of being raped. Seems the preacher, musicians and mother hen came to Jubilee and the Zoe group and learned how to GRADUALLY lie, cheat and steal to BURGLE a whole church: one of the FIVE out of 13,000 the ZOE or Lucifer group has been able to subvert."
The question is this: When will look at yourself in mirror and ask yourself whether or not you've crossed the line?
RAPED? How dare you even use such an analogy. I can't believe women anywhere who have read this material wouldn't let into you! Your "physical house" got broken into and you have the audacity, the boldness, to compare that temporary inconvenience with such an act as RAPE?
YOU CAN NOW RELATE TO THE TENSION PEOPLE FEEL AFTER BEING RAPED?
HAVE YOU LOST YOUR MIND?
That's what I'm talking about Ken you write these things that are so completely tactless and inconsiderate (or just plain thoughtless).
HOW DARE YOU COMBINE DISCUSSION OVER YOUR DISLIKES WITH CHURCH - AND SOME HOW RELATE YOUR EXPERIENCE WITH A THEIF IN YOUR HOME TO THE FEELINGS A RAPE VICTOM HAS - HAVE YOU NO SHAME?
THEN YOU MENTION THE RELATIONSHIP OF GOOD CHRISTIAN PEOPLE WHO WORSHIP DIFFERENTLY THAN YOU DO (WHERE EVER IT IS THAT YOU DO WORSHIP) TO THE LIKES OF LUCIFER AND SOME HOW IN THE SAME PARAGRAPH SUGGEST THAT THEY HAVE RAPED AND BURGLERIZED THE CHURCH!
YOU HAVE SEVERE PROBLEMS KEN SUBLETT AND VERY WARPED MIND. YOU'RE SICK.
The NEW STYLE WORSHIP PROMOTERS speak of ENTHUSIASM which means Enthus O mania or the madness of the sexual people who make you believe that they are bringing you into the presence of God.
Others suggest ENRAPTURING the spirit with song and sermon. Look closely and you will find that this means:
Enrapture \En*rap"ture\ (?; 135), v. t. [imp. & p. p. {Enraptured} (?; 135); p. pr. & vb. n. {Enrapturing}.] To transport with pleasure; to delight beyond measure; to ENRAVISH. --Shenstone.
"sat completely still, enraptured by the music"
Rape \Rape\, v. t. To commit rape upon; to ravish.
2: destroy and strip of its possession; "The soldiers raped the beautiful country" [syn: {despoil}, {violate}, {plunder}]
The VINEYARD mother of the NEW STYLE WORSHIP seeks to engage you in a SEXUAL-CLIMATIC "act of worship" with God.
"There is no exception" to the rule that MUSICAL "WORSHIP" worked because it peddled the heresy that when you rise up, sing, dance and clap you are acting as the "harem of the gods."
You just wait until I tell you about:
Thespian which has ALWAYS meant Lesbian and is the MAJOR MOVER of "musical worship and drama" in the church and "christian colleges." And just you wait till I connect Thespis with Hypocrites which define a PERFORMING preacher or PHARISEE who claims some superior connection to God or the Word.
Sure, RAPED. If you wonder why a huge exodus occured down here in my little tribal thingy you must grasp that when males begin flinging and singing a cold chill runs up the backs of people and they do one of three drug-induced things caused by MUSIC: They FIGHT, FLEE or FEEL raped and love or flee for their souls.
Watch it when the same misleaders want to take YOUR children to WINTERFEST as the SHOW AND TELL of professional artists getting everyone HIGH enough to BUY by a mass movement which DRIVES the youngsters into the same EFFEMINATE mind in which Chris't Spirit CANNOT LIVE. Sure, you can make a musical or theatrical performance career out of lying about the church of Christ and training the youth to be DELIBERATE SOWERS OF DISCORD.
The same "spirit" which rapes helpless women rapes faithful men and women of the INNOCENCE of a loving church and they KNOW when they have been HAD. "Sorcerers" or theatrical speakers and singers have their place in the lake of fire along with the rapists.
Ken
This message has been edited by ConcernedMembers from IP address 68.154.171.63 on Jan 24, 2004 4:14 PM
"I NEVER review anything which has not been PUBLISHED. I tell the TRUTH and you cannot and will not review my review and refute it without taking Shelly's advice to TAKE LIBERTIES with the old words of Jesus."
How arogant. You'd refuted the book long before it was a book?
You don't tell the TRUTH. You tell Ken's Bitter Version of the TRUTH because you feel the world, people, and others close to you have made done-you wrong and haven't appreciated you like they should have.
I did review your review and I will refute it. And I'd take anyone's advice in taking liberties, long before taking your's!
Do you still attend Hohenwald Church of Christ? Are you still shut in? Just curious. How many people did you baptize this past year? I think for Shelly, it was close to 70.
I WOULD LIKE TO INFORM YOU MR. SUBLETT HAS NOT ATTENDED THE HOHENWALD CHURCH OF CHRIST, WHERE I ATTEND, FOR PROBABLY 2 OR 3 YEARS. HE HAS NO IDEA WHAT IS GOING ON, EXCEPT FROM A FEW INSIDERS WHO APPARENTLY ARE INFORMING HIM (THEY HAVE LEFT NOW.) YOU WILL NOTE HE DOESN'T HAVE ANY CURRENT ACTIVITY FOR OUR CONGREGATION, HENCE HE IS BATTLING WOODMONT HILLS AGAIN. MAY THE LORD HAVE MERCY ON HIS SOUL.
Sacred, you should also know that the 340-350 body count when Mr. Sublett left is probably less than 200 today. So, lots of life-long members are NO LONGER THERE either. But, let me tell you something about a small TRIBAL TOWN: no one does NOTHING without everyone knowing about it.
Mr. Sublett saw the crash coming after PK96, "contributed" lots of money to the LOURDEE-eh in the face of STRONG opposition, Saw the CRASH hitting at the end of 97 AFTER the BUILDING PROGRAM as a step in the Purpose Driven Cult was about complete, began my WEB PAGE to fight the same SHELLY-NOSE-BUMPING in Seattle where they "lied, cheated, used the law and stole the church houses of widows." Mr. Sublett pushed a few buttons about PROMISE KEEPERS and the heretical JUBILEE and got the expected response. These relationships are "thicker than the blood of Jesus."
Mr. Sublett began to reach the WORLD in early 1998 and has about 4.5 million page hits (sermon listens) so far. An INSIDER says that my allerting the world to the TRUE misleaders helped EXPOSE' the Atonement-Denying Jubilee where they spent 1/4 million dollars to teach people to RAISE HOLY HANDS. Max Lucado's attempt to WASH AWAY baptism in 1997 (facilitated by Finto and some speaking in tongues) made a few gainsayers admit that THAT'S WHAT HE SAYS, ISN'T IT. Wall-uh, who could have ever doubted it.
Mr. Sublett attended for a time but had to FLEE the hand flinging singing and spit baptizing preaching, go to the foyer, turn off my hearing aids and STILL hear everything quite well. Mrs Sublett gave Mr. Sublett considerable trouble when I said "NOT ONE RED CENT" more. Wall-uh, Mrs Sublett tried to hang on but finally gave up and attended a little white church in the flood plains of my creek and has lived happily ever after. Mrs Sublett NOW feels fleeced and robbed. I was astounded about how deep her self-taught Bible knowledge went.
Mr. Sublett used the internet to PLOT a course for what would happen: Lynn anderson advises about 10 years for the serpent seed to hatch. Right on target, a new preacher HIRED by the Saddle-backed-kid while telling the flock "oh, he is just coordinating."
The little Red Riding Hood didn't tell the OWNERS that he didn't believe in baptism but who are the OWNERS to question the PK, Purpose Driven Cult DOMINANT PASTORS with WOODMONT'S garbage that the MINISTERS are best prepared to be the leaders and the elders are now JUST SHEPHERDS of the STAFF INFECTION? They even called themselves A Family of God, confessed in a sermon that "we are purpose driven" (the purpose became clear when the check cleared) and ERRECTED four Asherah poles which are PHALLIC SYMBOLS but the poles were symbols of FEMININE POWER.
Probably in late 1997 Mr. Sublett got overwhelmed with response from his web pages (200 major topics with over 2,000 research papers or reproduction of ancient documents.) It was not uncommon to get an e-mai reading: "I have to teach a class on Romans 6 in two hours: what do you have?" I have gone into all of the world which has sunlight or batteries while our children are effeminated from the cradle to the grave. Outsiders who move in claim THERE IS A GOAL TO KEEP EVERYONE IGNORANT. That defines A Cave of the Bear Clan. If you want to read about the Cave of Treasures here is how it works. This is one of 36 documents on my site which defines how SATAN used the YOUTH to subvert and pervert holy people with music.
Mr. Sublett discovered that doing church is doing CIRCE or KIRKE meaning the holy whore of John's Patmos in MOST churches of Christ which have been Lucadoed or Shellited. Mr. Sublett discovered, further, that the TITHE repudiates Jesus Christ and the LAW OF GIVING is a Satanic lie when you cannot trust people. That is why Paul put about four pairs of hands on the BAG as it went to the DESTITUTES. There is no Act of Singing: Paul said TEACH with the WORD because external singing just ment reciting and external MELODY speaks of the bo of Apollo (Abaddon, Apollon) and his muses and the arrows shoot what the MUSES inspire.
Mr. Sublett learned that Jesus promised to be in the midst of TWO OR THREE gathered (synagogued) in HIS name where HE is the teacher. The "NOTHING BUT WORSHIP" coming out of Shelly and ZOE (the mother of the gods) is the prophesied-end time BABYLON WHORE (Rev 18).
Jesus WON'T be in the midst of two or three thousand gathered in the name of some CHARISMATIC MAN pumped up with MUSICA. Neither will I and most of the mature owners DRIVEN OUT by an unholy smell.
In the meantime, Ken doesn't e-mai, call, meet or stir up: the GUILTY PARTY always blames the victim for falling when shot. But, Mr. Sublett KNOWS more than the SHADOW DO. Don't forget it.
You will have to look at my web pages.
This message has been edited by ConcernedMembers from IP address 68.19.217.21 on Jan 28, 2004 5:51 PM
"Mr. Sublett began to reach the WORLD in early 1998 and has about 4.5 million page hits (sermon listens) so far."
I'd be curious as to how many of those are repeat hits. I think you get a big one-off factor. People come here or piney.com and only see it once, then leave, never to return.
I also wouldn't assume that just because people come here that they agree or even want to agree with you. I come here a couple of times a day just to see what you or Donnie Cruz are going to say, much the same reason that some people listen to Howard Stern.
I'm a member at Otter Creek as well and have directed several people here to view what you've said, just to see what the other side of the issue says.
My best information is that 4.5 million page hits parses to about 2 million PEOPLE. Now, you guys count the same people over and over: if your attendance is 500 then you get 500 sermon hits per week from people who are spaced out by the music and false teaching. I have done lots of test: people RUSH to get out and cannot answer simple questions such as WHAT WAS THE TOPIC 15 minutes later.
Because of my links to schools and colleges I would think that lots of people are READING all of the way through. Like any "book" that means two or three times before the LIGHT dispels the DARKNESS. I do lots of class helps of 6th and 9th grader wanting informaion on the Ancient Near East, term papers and thesis. A student in Paris was ready to hand in her masters work when she SUDDENLY dicovered that there was a connection between MUSIC and RELITIGION.
Besides, I don't get paid, don't go out to baptize, take up collections, become a COUNTER OF THE TOWERS and frankly Jesus has not laid it on my heart to care much whether people grasp it or not: I am confident that we are in the WITNESSING phase. You DO remember that the religionists of the CURSED MONARCHY had the prophecies but didn't have a clue about the meaning of the FIRST advent.
Based on the total fulfillment of the end-time signs I am quite sure that YOU will not hear the trumpet voice of Jesus announcing His return: you will have captured people and are involved with real or VOCAL trumping or TRIUMPHING over Jesus and His Word. Revelation 18 and much of the book PROVES that what you guys call CHURCH is the rise of the musical harlot named CIRCE or KIRKE or, yes, even ZOE or INANNA. The word is SYNAGOGUE or school of the Bible.
Yes, I get lots of good mail along with the HATE words: My day is made if I can EXORCIZE the TITHING or LAW OF GIVING to false teaching DEMONS. Or, people wake up and say: "Wow, they really are HURTING me" with all of what history calls screaming, screeching and howling.
I do my web pages for MY education as a converted DISCIPLE of Christ. He promised to be with two or three but not two or three thousand SCREECHING and looking effeminate to DROWN OUT the worship of God which Jesus said happens ONLY in the new PLACE of the human spirit as it GIVES HEED to the WORDS of Christ. The words of Twila or Zoe spits the words of Jesus out of their mouth and plugs the ears. My God, my God, can they believe that they are in the Most Holy Place with you when they are PERFORMING the sacred rites of Thespianism which means the same thing as Lesbianism or its male counterpart.
Because these 2,000 plus documents (Babylon Tablets, Dead Sea Scrolls, Church Fathers and the Bible) are linked and cross linked and COVERED by a search engine, if I have a question I can ask my pages and most often find them. I can find thousands of links to MUSIC AS PAGAN IDOLATRY but NOT ONE Biblical or historical positive thought about MUSIC as the product of Lucifer who is Inanna in Mesopotamia and Zoe in later Gnosticism. Sure, just ask the site about GNOSTICISM. Sure, I knew that an engineer collecting and dispensing all of that stuff for FREE is a reproach to the SECTARIANS of the THESPIAN tribe: rhetoricians, sOPHISts (serpents), singers and musicians.
That is why the old owners are willing to FLEE FOR THEIR SPIRITUAL lives when the theatrical performers MOUNT the podium "making a place for themselves in the mainstream."
Conclusion: I count numbers to decide which way to go in adding or deleting from the 2,000 plus research papers which you would be forced to STARVE your children to PROCURE from purely ignorant "universities."
I am not kind because a Paul Revere is not a LOCATED MISSIONARY (Re:Shelly) and the purely PSYCHOLOGICAL VIOLENCE of using the LOUVEEE-EH word intends to force Paul to set up headquarter in North Church. Neither Jesus nor Paul TURNED the cheek in a literal sense and LOVE is keeping Chris't Commandments and telling my children and my children's children. Thank you very much but my two daughters are well prepared to refute the PURPOSE DRIVEN LIFE heresy in Murfreeboro.
I don't expect to see any Jesus riding a white horse down the streets of Jerusalem which is identified as Egypt and Sodom. I think that people are being RAPTURED out of pagan churches held captive by the LOCUST or musical performers of all legend. Paul said that you have to GO OUTSIDE the city or camp or temple to find Jesus who awaits beside Piney Creek to teach: one at a time. I have been raptured and left my "tithes and offerings" to burn up along with the COLLECTORS of the tithes.
I think that it may be like Amos which most preachers and professors lie about:
Am.5:17 And in all vineyards shall be wailing: for I will pass through thee, saith the Lord.
Am.7:8 And the Lord said unto me, Amos, what seest thou? And I said, A plumbline. Then said the Lord, Behold, I will set a plumbline [NARROW] in the midst of my people Israel: I
will not again pass by them any more:
Aristophanes
Socrates responding to the CHORUS
"Didn't know that they sustain and
feed a host of specialists,
"sayers of sooth, quack doctors, [Frogs in Revelation are Quacks]
"hairy idlers with onyx signet-rings,
"writers of chorus-bending screeches,
"phony meteorologists,
Aristophanesdoing nothing useful,
living only to SING about the Clouds?
Performance preachers, guitar players performed the PRETEND task of sorcerers. The Greek language knows them as PARASITES.
It may be popular RELIGION but it has no remote roots to the church of Christ or the SYNAGOGUE of Christ which has ONE GOAL: "making known the manifest wisdom of God" to heaven and earth. The locusts (musical performers) also have Scorpion Stings in their tail: they inject poison to put you to sleep so that you don't even ANTICIPATE that Jesus will take people away while you are marrying and giving in marriage (Hebrew word meaning play the flute, pollute or prostitute).
Ken Sublett
This message has been edited by ConcernedMembers from IP address 68.154.172.114 on Jan 30, 2004 5:13 PM
Do you REALLY want to know what we do during worship services? Here it goes:
I personally attend the first set of classes where I meet regularly with many, many other God-fearing Christian men and women--my brothers and sisters in Christ. We pray together and then we sit under the instruction of some of the most humble and knowledgable Christians alive today.
During the service, we fellowship with one another. We have the most amazing a capella worship time I have ever been involved with. We have an amazing pastor who not only preaches the Word, but he lives it. And our elders.....the most caring, loving, prayerful men of God that I know. They want nothing more than to serve God in all that they do. And it is visible in that our church follows their leadership whole-heartedly.
I have never met such an amazing group of Christians than those that attend Otter Creek. We are all sinners, and we will tell you that, but that doesn't make us any different than any of you, does it?
And one more thing--it is obvious (note Sacred Cow's post) that instruments were used in the Old Testament. And instruments will be used in Heaven (see Revelations and other passages)....so, if we serve an unchanging God, why would it be a "sin" to use instruments now???? That just baffles me. And we all should know that the use of a capella music did not become "holy" and instrumental music "sinful" until the Civil War era when churches in the North were criticized for their use of pianos while churches in the South hardly even had a place to meet. Seems to me as if the sin committed here is not instrumental music, but brothers and sisters not reaching out to those in need. Now this hardly seems like a Scripturally ordained reason to knock off instrumental music.....
I have read every post on this site, and I have to say I have no idea what is happening at Otter Creek. (if anything)You have all been so concerned with who gets the last word, that you have gotten completely off the topic. Let's all act like real brothers and sisters of Christ and stop all this bickering. We have a loving and caring God who wants us to worship him with all our mind, soul and strength. If that happens to include instruments for some of us then I don't believe God will condem us for using them. Just as he will not condem us if we do not use instruments. He wants our hearts.
Everyone makes assumptions on things they've heard. I've only read one person who actually knows what's going on at Otter Creek and everything else is pure speculation or judgement. Or Gossip (Romans 1:29; 2 Corinthians 12:20).
John, if you really want to know what goes on there, call the church or go visit yourself. Anything else just encourages specualtion withoout facts.
We do not go back to the Old Testament for our use of instruments in the Lord's Church. Christ died for our sins, therefore a New Testament came into effect after his death, same as a will does today. We are not in heaven if we are writing on this web site. The New Testament does not tell us to use an instrument in our worship to him. Therefore, we don't. As for an amazing group of "Christians", God fearing "Christians" at Otter Creek, you can be good, amazing, and sincere, but be sincerely wrong. Some may say, how silly to not be able to add what you wish to the worship. Just remember, the foolishness of God is wiser than man. The Lord has also said the way to eternal damnation is the broad way. Be careful, you that are broadminded. Remember what God said he would say to them in the last day, Depart from me I never knew you, you workers of iniquity. They are sincere, but sincerely wrong. Also, about doing something that is not commanded in the New Testament, remember our example of Nadab and Abihu in the Old Testament.
You know of course that AMONG THE SCHOLARS they love to MOCK anyone who speaks of Nadab and Abihu because they are MOCKERS firstly but because they are ignorant because repudiating the Bible used by faithful disciples causes God to blind their eyes, plug their ears and send them strong delusions.
Amazingly, God does this to people who know the Word and then repudiate it again and fall from Grace and cannot be renewed to repentance (Heb. 6).
Paul's warning apply to the FALLS FROM GRACE when People repudiated God by repudiating His Word. God is Spirit and therefore can only be worshipped in OUR SPIRIT when we obey what He wants as worship.
After the Israelites ROSE UP TO PLAY in Musical Idolatry, the Sacrificial system was commanded because they rejected God's GRACE. Nadab and Abihu burned INCENSE on strange (foreign) fire. God had not commanded either incense or the Scape Goat. Moses and Aaron had performed the rituals COMMANDED by God and God did not say: "thou shalt not burn incense to me."
While the MOCKERS Mock--that is what they do as a profession--it is a fact that God CONSUMED them with fire at Mount Sinai and in the Nadab and Abihu ADDING what God had not commanded. The INCENSE altar was added and the people could not approach God. The scapegoat was a SACRIFICED GOAT to Azazel or Satan because they minds demanded something to APPEASE Satan who is always the ROOT of disobedience. Those who worship the GOAT will not be accepted by God in Christ.
Paul spoke of this and other FALLS in Romans 1 which shows that ignoring the WORD automatically turns even believers back to the rituals which lead to perversion.
In Hebrews Paul warned:
"For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that BURNED WITH FIRE, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest, Heb 12:18
And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more: Heb 12:19
(For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart: Heb 12:20
And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake:) Heb 12:21
The EARTHLY Jerusalem is identified with SLAVERY and SODOM. The clergy were not true Israelites although they could say that they were children of Abraham. Jesus identifed them with Hagar, slavery, Mount Sinai, the Jerusalem as David's HIGH PLACE. The leaders in this Jebusite High Place were Cainites or Kenites or Canaanites. Cain means A MUSICAL NOTE and it is the MARK of those who use music and CRAFTSMENSHIP to SEDUCE AND ENSLAVE those for whom Jesus Died. We have our spirit made holy so that we can boldly enter the throne room WITHOUT musicians or singers who would be EXECUTED if they dared enter the EARTHLY JERUSALEM type of the church or body of Christ.
BUT ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, Heb 12:22
PLEASE READ THE IN BETWEEN
"And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the REMOVING of those things that are SHAKEN [waver, agitate, rock, topple, incite], as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain. Heb 12:27
...Salpigc (g4536) sal'-pinx; perh. from 4535 (through the idea of quavering or reverberation): a trumpet: - trump (- et).
"Wherefore we receiving a KINGDOM which cannot be moved, let us have grace,whereby we may serve God acceptably with REVERENCE and godly FEAR: Heb 12:28
For our God is a consuming fire. Heb 12:29
EXULTING in A capella music has the meaning of the Pope's CASTRATOS. When we come into the presence of God and do not have REVERENCE or downcast eyes we have been TRANSPORTED into the real of God as a CONSUMING FIRE where GRACE demands that He punish those who treated Him like a prostitute which is the ONLY meaning of music.
This PATTERN is being repeated now as the MUSICAL or THESPIAN performers all focus on Old Testament rituals which were added BECAUSE OF TRANSGRESSION by musical idolatry at Mount Sinai. After which God TURNED THEM OVER to worship the starry host including Saturn = 666.
Having repudiated the WORDS of Christ and the apostles they have been TRANSPORTED back before the Cross and there is no grace or redemption to them.
Those who COME TO THE SOUND of the Trumpet or a human imitation of MUSICA intend to HURT people to create a DRUG HIGH because they have NO WORD OF GOD to give people. In that, they fulfill the TYPE in the Book of Enoch (quoted by Jude) to MASK THEIR FEAR because God has cut off "messanging" as the Word and they are ACTING OUT polluting God because, in these old documents, MISERY DEMANDS COMFORT.
musica , ae, and mu-si(ce- , e-s, f., = mousikê, the art of music, music; acc. to the notions of the ancients, also every higher kind of ARTIST or scientific CULTURE or pursuit
Similar definitions:
exe-ge-tice , es, f., = exêgêtikê, the art of interpretation, exegesis, (outlawed by Peter as PRIVATE INTERPRETATION)
The PHARISEES believed that they held a SPIRITUALLY SUPERIOR POSITION. They were the performance preachers, prayers, song writers as SCRIBES and ACTORS as HYPOCRITES. However, John warned:
"For without are dogs [male prostitutes], and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. Re.22:15
ANY concept of the THESPIAN art points directly to DRAMA because "drama works because we KNOW that it isn't true." Any performance is ONCE or TWICE removed from the truth: especially musicians. The Thespians and Lesbians or "Lesbo singers" have much the same meaning.
The CHILDREN or "chorus leaders" piped hoping to get Jesus and His disciples to SING and DANCE the perverted ritual of DIONYSUS.
And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman (TECHNE), of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee; Rev 18:22
GRINDERS was a code word for concubines or PROSTITUTES. When they forced Samson to GRIND in the king's house, he was not grinding cornmeal.
mageia, hê, theology of the Magians, m. hê Zôroastrou
Dare any GREEK SCHOLAR refute it? Yet, they are SO SILENT as OCU 2004 combines ART AS WORSHIP and the INTERNATIONAL CHURCH OF CHRIST. This means THE BOSTON MOVEMENT OR CROSSROADS or SHEPHERDING without which the new THESPIAN churces cannot exist. Max Lucado, Lynn Anderson and Rubel Shelly defend a form of SHEPHERDING which is the MEANING of the COMMUNITY CHURCH meaning COMMUNES. Carroll D. Osburn claims that they are training PROPHETS, CHANELLERS and FACILITATORS with advanced degrees (about 212F) to go out and facilitate the changes to the NEW STYLE churches
Ken Sublett
This message has been edited by ConcernedMembers from IP address 68.154.185.12 on Jan 28, 2004 2:03 PM
It's quite interesting to see the comments that you do allow.
It's a shame that the majority of our conversations go unseen.
I'm not concerned with this being posted as much as I am you reading it.
The fact that you allow the majority of Ken's filth and banter is beyond my comprehension. But then again it is "your" show.
*Most of his comments need a rating of "R." Due to the sexual content, language, and suggestive material of an adult nature.
=========================================
MESSAGE FROM THE MODERATOR
I will explain this again very slowly so you can grasp it.
Kenneth Sublett puts his name on his work. Whether he is right or wrong, others will have to discern.
Anyone is allowed to comment, and refute anonymously if they wish, but not attack others.
Many of your postings have been attacks on Kenneth Sublett. We don't have to defend those telling the truth, and Kenneth does a wonderful job, regardless of whether you understand it or not.
Your attacks are nameless, spineless, and are without merit. They will continue to be deleted......
This message has been edited by ConcernedMembers from IP address 68.154.172.114 on Jan 30, 2004 5:30 PM
Brother Ken
Well it looks like you stepped in it again at Otter Creek. Well done.
I have noticed that you always get attacked by different anonymous named responders. I think it is one person and he post under several names to make it look like there are many that disagree with you, when there is only one demon following you around.
Keep up the Good Work.
"I will explain this again very slowly so you can grasp it."
"Kenneth Sublett puts his name on his work. Whether he is right or wrong, others will have to discern."
"Anyone is allowed to comment, and refute anonymously if they wish, but not attack others."
"Many of your postings have been attacks on Kenneth Sublett. We don't have to defend those telling the truth, and Kenneth does a wonderful job, regardless of whether you understand it or not."
"Your attacks are nameless, spineless, and are without merit. They will continue to be deleted......"
I want to thank you for atleast reading what I sent "you."
Lets be honest.
Whether Ken is right or wrong? That is noble. You see I was under the impression like most others who read this material that Ken and all who associates themselves with this site condsider themselves to be "right."
I can respect your comment regarding "whether right or wrong, everyone must discern for themselves."
That is one our brotherhood's bigest problems. "Too concerned about getting it right and being right." I never said Ken was wrong or that I was even right. My replys are simply written to counter act that which has already been stated. Ken and I disagree.
You also said those who submit are not allowed to attack others. Please, as honestly as you can, please tell me how Ken's words: condemning brothers and sisters to the lake of fire with entire church bodies based on their worship - are not a full blown attacks.
Ken can attack.
No one else can use self defense.
What I do understand is what I already understood. I didn't expect any other comment from you. How easy it to say that many of my submissions are attacks on Ken when I use scripture, just like he does; I ask point blank questions, like he does; and I assume that Ken is a big enough of a man to take care of himself and the submissions; just as I am.
Nameless -
Spineless -
Without merit -
Delete if you must...
=====================================
MESSAGE FROM THE MODERATOR
I AM SO VERY SORRY. I MUST NOT HAVE BEEN PLAIN ENOUGH.
KEN USES HIS NAME, SO HE CAN SAY ANYTHING HE WANTS TO AS LONG AS IT'S NOT TELLING AN UNTRUTH ABOUT SOMEONE.
YOU DON'T USE YOUR NAME, SO YOU CAN NOT ATTACK SOMEONE USING THEIR NAME AND WHILE KEEPING YOUR NAME SECRET.
NO WONDER WE ARE HAVING A HARD TIME COMMUNICATING.....
TRY ANOTHER NAME. CONSIDER "SACRED COW" PERMANENTLY BANNED.
This message has been edited by ConcernedMembers from IP address 68.154.172.114 on Feb 2, 2004 5:59 PM
I don't know why I even read anything that is on this site. A speaker I recently heard said it best. "I wouldn't recommend that anyone go look up those websites (meaning sites such as this one) because toxic waste isn't good for anyone. I am sure that this message will be deleted. I won't be surprised. Ken Sublett blasts others for sowing discord. Maybe he should remove the plank from his own eye before he tries to remove the splinter from anyone else's. For someone who supposedly hates discord, he certainly spreads it around! There is a world full of lost people out there. And if it were up to him, they would all stay lost because he doesn't have time to spread the good news of Jesus Christ. He is too busy trying to convince those who are already Christians that he is right and they are wrong. I would hate to have to explain that on judgment day.
OCM: And one more thing--it is obvious (note Sacred Cow's post) that instruments were used in the Old Testament. And instruments will be used in Heaven (see Revelations and other passages)....so, if we serve an unchanging God, why would it be a "sin" to use instruments now????
================
When the Israelites ROSE UP in perverted PLAY it was MUSICAL IDOLATRY. This was the worship of the STARRY HOSTS and God ABANDONED THEM to the musical worship of Saturn who is 666 in Chaldee. God gave kings to lead the nation into captivity and death. The MUSIC at the temple was therefore EXORCISM as HARD BONDAGE during the sacrifice ot TYPES of Lord Jesus Christ. There is NO CONGREGATIONAL WORSHIP with INSTRUMENTAL ACCOMPANIMENT IN THE ENTIRE BIBLE.
The BIBLE says that Lucifer brought wind, string and percussion instruments which he had as he attempted to ASCEND UP to usurp the throne of God. Having failed, there would be many other ATTACKS on God always with MUSIC.
Psalm 41 prophesied that Judas would attempt to TRIUMPH OVER Jesus with music. The Essene translation proves that MUSIC attacks Jesus by idenffying Him with the Dung-God and God of tongues. However, Jesus won and established THE FRUIT OF THE LIPS as the only GOD-GIVEN instrument:
DSS: I will groan with the zither of lamentation
in all grief-stricken mourning and bitter complaint
until iniquity and wickedness are consumed
and the disease-bringing scourge is no more.
An evil disease, say they, cleaveth fast unto him: and now that he lieth he shall rise up no more. Ps.41:8
DSS: Then will I play on the zither of deliverance
and harp of joy,
on the tabors of prayer and the pipe of praise
without end.
=============
We keep trying to tell you that Jesus didn't build a CHURCH as a WORSHIP CENTER. He bilt a SYNAGOGUE or school of the Bible. Unfortunately while you are singing you may violate the direct command of Paul to TEACH or PREACH the INSPIRED TEXT.
Now they HELD the instruments in heaven: they did not PLAY the harps and fall on their face at the same time. The INSTRUMENTS of Lucifer are wind, string and percussion: the instruments or harps of God are the mouth and heart used to COMMUNICATE.
They were DEAD VIRGINS and the message of John is that the DEAD are at peace and under God's protection. The other angel had a message for the living: preach the gospel which is "teaching the word as it has been taught." If you are into harps maybe you are spiritually dead. If you make a distinction between AUTHORIZED pastor-teacers as vocational preachers and PROFESSONAL PASTORS you may be coddled to keep the coins coming in.
Read about the Revelation SECRET MYSTERY here: http://www.piney.com/MuHarpRev.html
======
OCR: That just baffles me. And we all should know that the use of a capella music did not become "holy" and instrumental music "sinful" until the Civil War era when churches in the North were criticized for their use of pianos while churches in the South hardly even had a place to meet.
I can point you to totally adequate buildings in the South. They were "schools of the Bible" and not "pagan worship centers." Many of the churches I knew about were pre civil war.
It is a historical fact that churches in the North bought up rifled arms, sent then imto the South and said: "There is more power in one of these arms than in a 100 bibles." The war was a RELIGIOUS war. After the war the Northern Churches RICC on destroyed lives came south with their religious carpetbags and went to law to try to steal church property. I think they got one. Try some REAL history while the girly-boys are PERFORMING:
When you say that out loud to defend rank paganism then you have lied before a holy God. YOU say that only because your professors tell you that to SCAM you. Music as worship is condemned throughout the Old and New Testaments but Jesus said that He spoke so that you cannot grasp it if you--as evidenced-have no love for TRUTH. Music is 100% associated with prostitutes and sodomites in all ancient pagan religions. But, not in the VILEST could musicians and singers (A MONEY CROP FOR THE PRIESTS) could they enter into the holy precincts.
The TOTAL church history condemns music as worship because it PROVES that you, as many passages prove, that you DON'T and WON'T hear the words of God. Churches called "the church of Christ" have existed from the beginning and there are dozens of proofs. They ALL condemned instruments or even SINGING in a MUSICAL style. A Cappella means Ala Castratos or the Pope's "boy-girl" teams for the Sistine Chapel.
Prior to the civil are the Baptists, Presbyterians and many Methodists saw instruments, like Luther as the MARK OF BAAL. Many Presbyterians are non-instrumental and faithful to the Bible as PSALM SINGERS. The Baptists were being ROUTED out of their building to make room for ORGANS after 1900. The Catholic Encyclopedia as late as 1911 condemned instruments and the were OUTLAWED in the presence of the Pope and used ONLY for non official meetings.
OCR: Seems to me as if the sin committed here is not instrumental music, but brothers and sisters not reaching out to those in need. Now this hardly seems like a Scripturally ordained reason to knock off instrumental music....
Problem is that the INSTRUMENTAL SECTARIANS are reaching into the POCKETS of non-instrumental churches and the CANNOT preach without lying about the Bible and the totality of church history.
You PROVE my point: the musical clergy in Amos intended to use wine, women (of various sexes) and music to TAKE AWAY THE KEY to knowledge. Now, you are old enough to red and rite and have been left VOID of spiritual knowledge. For that you gladly WORSHIP your leaders and submit to the unlawful law of giving from the poor so the rich don't have to GO PREACH. Sounds to me like your RELATIONSHIPS are too close and too far away from the Suffering Servant who meets ONLY with the two's and three's OUTSIDE THE CAMP to conduct SCHOOL.
Show me a sectarian anti- and I will show you that they are terminally ignorant or totally evil. Paul said in effect that "fools love to be fooled." That is why only the riduculed remnant will go to heaven and God will, like the Jews, assyrians and Egyptians "beat the POPULAR MAJORITY into hell to the beat of harps and drums. YOU believe it because THEY throw you into schizophrenia with all of the SINGING and LOOVEEE-UH.
Ken Sublett
This message has been edited by ConcernedMembers from IP address 68.154.172.114 on Jan 31, 2004 7:48 AM
I am a member at Otter Creek. Instead of asking for a second or third-hand report of the "goings-on here"... why don't you just come visit for yourself?
You'll find a wonderful group of people-- a true community of believers and followers of Christ. We embrace our differences because we rally around Christ alone-- in Him we find our unity.
We don't have the need for a website of "concerned members" who are worried about the direction of our church. Our elders are wise and Godly.
How wonderful to be part of a church family that can disagree without having to write endless letters, post to a website, or publicly tear down our fellow members. When you make it about the cross alone and nothing more--or less, things have a way of working themselves out....
It saddens my heart to read the posts from Ken, et al.
But-- to answer your question about Otter Creek-- it's a WONDERFUL place.
Come visit us at our new home-- 409 Franklin Road, Brentwood, TN.
Amy, we all have an image of the meaning of "church." The Bible defines it as a place to REST and conduct a Bible Study. That is defined for the Israelites in the wilderness, practiced by the Jews throughout their history, exampled by Jesus, defined by Paul and practiced for many centuries.
What you might enjoy as "music" makes it impossible for a large majority of people in churches of Christ to participate. So, while you include certain people you exclude the majority.
I have never attended so I think it would help if you define the music part and what it contributes to your life.
Phoebe carried the great doctrinal statement of the book of Romans to the believers in Rome. In the original Greek text, Phoebe is referred to as a "diakonos." This word appears 22 times in the New Testament. In 18 of these, translators render it "minister" and three times as "deacon." In Phoebe's case, they change it to servant, perhaps reflecting bias on the part of the translators.
In introducing Phoebe to the believers in Rome, Paul says to:
...receive her in the Lord, as becometh saints, and that ye assist her in whatsoever business she hath need of you: for she has been a succourer of many, and of myself also. (Romans 16:2)
Some have thought from this passage that Phoebe provided hospitality to Paul, fed him, did his laundry, etc. But the word "succourer" actually means helper and the feminine form of the word means "one who stands before, a chief leader." The consideration Paul requests is the same he asks for male leaders and elders in I Thessalonians 5:12-13 and I Timothy 5:17.
In Romans 16, Paul refers to another woman in Rome, Prisca, who is married to Aquila. This is the same woman called Priscilla by Luke. Prisca is the more formal form of her name. We already learned about this woman in Chapter Eight.
The word "helper" which Paul used to describe her means "fellow worker." Paul stressed that Prisca and Aquila not only risked their lives but were also involved in an important ministry to the Gentile Churches.
Other women on Paul's list at Rome include Mary, who worked hard for the believers; Narcissus, who seemed to be the head of a household; Tryphena and Tryphosa, whose names mean dainty and delicate; and "the beloved Persis" who also worked hard in the Lord. There is a woman named Julia, about whom we are told nothing, and two others women whose names are not given, the mother of Rufus and the sister of Nereus. Junia, mentioned in Romans 16:7, was noted by the apostles for her faith, and was a fellow prisoner with Paul for the cause of Christ.
WOMEN IN THE OTHER EPISTLES:
Chloe is mentioned in I Corinthians 1:11. She sent a report to Paul about some disturbing things going on in the Church at Corinth. In Philemon, Paul addresses Apphia, Philemon's wife. This couple had a Church in their home as did Lydia and Nympha.
Euodia and Syntyche mentioned in Philippians 4:2 may have done evangelistic work, since Paul
describes them as "those women which labored (struggled) with me in the Gospel...with my other fellow laborers."
Paul extends greetings from "Claudia and all the brethren" in II Timothy 4:21 although we are not told anything about this woman.
SUMMARY
Review of specific women mentioned in the Epistles reveals that the position of women in the early Church were not passive. They struggled right along with the men to spread the Gospel message.
Godly women labored as fellow workers, had great responsibilities, organized Churches in their homes, and were imprisoned for their faith. They underwent persecution as did all the believers and when this forced them to leave Jerusalem, they preached the Gospel wherever they went:
Therefore they that were scattered abroad went every where preaching the Word. (Acts 8:4)
These women provide inspiring role models for Christian women who seek their own places of service in the spiritual harvest fields of the world.
I'm concerned that there are way too many people picking hair off fleas about thier churches instead of spreading the gospel. How does this site draw people close to God? I sure hope that God is as gracious as He says He is, because if He judges anything like some of you do, none of us have a chance at spending eternity with God.
This message has been edited by ConcernedMembers from IP address 68.154.172.114 on Feb 2, 2004 6:01 PM
While you are all in this forum wasting your time day after day after day refuting what is going on in different churches around the US, there are LOST PEOPLE OUT THERE!!! Lose the buff about instruments and power point and praise teams, get off your butt and go tell people about Jesus!
I have tried showing Ken Sublett via email what important things we are called to do with our short time here on earth (i.e. fulfill the great commission and the greatest commandment) but I believe this message of the Lord's has fallen on deaf ears. Let's not fight anymore. We can't change his mind, but we can pray that God shows him the truth and what really matters. God can soften his heart. So let's not throw our pearls to swine (to use the proverb loosely), wipe the dust off ourselves and go out to others to show them Christ's love. Let God deal with Kenneth Himself.
Loren, I don't remember your e-mail: must have been the old LOVE dodge and leave the musical heretics alone. I must not have had my nose above the slop. If you will just continue throwing the PEARLS I will assuredly appreciate it and so will my dentist.
I have to tell you again that ZOE is Inanna in Babylonia and is ZOE in Gnostics which was the same old "church" built on a CHARISMATIC sense (intimately tied to pedestary). ZOE was the Mother-Sister of the little dumb "jehovah." The links are listed above. There is no MUSIC WORD connected with the worship of a Holy (wholly) Spirit God. ALL of the Bible and all of the literature associate it with male and female prostitutes and the Warrior Levites who served (hard bondage like Abaddon or Apollyon) the priests as the slaughtered tens of thousands of INNOCENT LAMBS to try to get the assurance they Lost when the elders "fired" God and demanded a king like the nations "sos we can worship like the nations" meaning like the Egyptians, Canaanites and Babylonians.
First, take a look at the MUSIC posts. This will lead you to a long discussion about the CHURCH. The church is named after CIRCE the holy whore of John's area around Patmos. She will again, like Lucifer or ZOE go back into Sheol with her:
Rev 18:22 And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee;
The Greek literature identifies all of these as pretending to be sorcerers. The Craftsmen (techne) included the rhetoricians, sOPHISts (serpents like the musical enchanter in the garden of Eden who WHOLLY SEDUCED Eve. Cain was OF that wicked one and his name means A MUSICAL NOTE.). It also includes singers and musicians. Because they served no useful purpose and MARKED out the male and female prostitutes, they were identified as PARASITES.
In this link pay attention to PSALLO which is NEVER a musical word but a WARFARE word and associated with Apollo (Abaddon, Apollyon) and his resurrected muses which are the LOCUSTS with stingers in their tails.
Also look at the two MELODY words and see that they, too, speak of Lucifer as the "singing and harp playing prostitute" who was in the garden of Eden. The first word is NAGAN
The second word, ZAMAR, is related to instruments in the sense of "triming your vines to steal your inheritance." This word is intimately connected to the SHAGGY GOATS like the BEAST in Revelation who, in the Greek Literatre, is identified as PAN, the little goat footed, horned god (horny always meant horny). His seven or ten HORNS are identifed as MUSICAL instruments. They are used to help the 10 AGENTS (you know their names) to ascend to their HILL or little kingdom. Music in "worship" in the Biblical sense is UNIVERSALLY the MARK of prostitutes and Sodomites. I am sorry but I know of no exception. Religious adultry and prostitution in the Bible is ANYTHING which will lead your mind away from God in Christ and HIS Word.
The SECOND DIALOG has to do with the fact that Jesus DID NOT found a church or a pagan "worship center." He promised to build an ekklesia or synagogue. The synagogue never had A PRAISE SERVICE and indeed it was outlawed if you have A holy spirit and can read Numbers 10. The Jews NEVER violated that commande when Stephen's CHURCH IN THE WILDERNESS met or when the PEOPLE met for instructions while the KING an COMMANDERS OF THE ARMY held their religio-political rituals at the temple.
When individuals ASSEMBLE Paul used a form of SYNAGOGUE and he limited "worship" to giving heed to that which is written (Rom 15), the Spirit (word) in Eph 5 and the Word of Christ in Colossians. When Paul said DON'T GET DRUNK with wine but be FILLED with the spirit so that you could SPEAK or teach one another, the word ment to be FLUTED DOWN WITH WINE or to be FLUTED DOWN to human passion.
Words like MELODY, CANTUS or MELODIA all speak of instruments to create FRENZY or the "spiritual anxiety" Jesus died to remove. The impulses are that of PANIC which you guys TRAFFICK as spiritual consistent with the Lucifer-Zoe concept. Modern science knows that the singing, drama and charismatic preaching create DRUGS in your system and the impulses are FIGHT, FLIGHT or SEXUALITY. Nimrod knew that: he USED priests, soothsayers, musicians, and male and female prostitutes. He led around a MUSICAL TEAM which promised to REGENERATE MORALS THROUGH EXTERNAL MEANS.
Ken, keep those pearls comming and also the Christ-like responses to BIBLICAL TEACHING. How about contacting that guy what turns fillings into GOLD. I like that better.
This message has been edited by ConcernedMembers from IP address 68.19.202.235 on Apr 2, 2004 7:01 AM
there was this man whom God said was after his own heart
that would be God's heart. . .
a man after God's heart. . .
wow, what a man
that man wrote a little ditty
it went something like this
praise the Lord
praise God in his sanctuary
praise him in his mighty heavens
praise him for his acts of power
praise him for his surpassing greatness
praise him with harp and lyre
Praise him with tambourine and dancing
praise him with the strings and flute
praise him with the clash of cymbals
praise him with resounding cymbals
let everything that has breath praise the Lord
Praise the Lord
you can find it in the bible, Psalms 150 to be exact
so by using the feeble logic in Ken's posts . . .
Kens logic would mean that the God of David supported all of the things that Ken associates with instrumental music and dancing. . .
we must all remember that our struggle is not against man, but it is against those powers, authorities, rulers, and unseen things aligned with the prince of darkness some of which seem to posses Ken
we should pray for Ken, that he may be released from the bondage he is so obviously in
Isaiah 53 prophesied of the musical attack of the people "piping" trying to pollute Jesus into the Dionysic song and dance:
For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him. Isaiah 53:2
He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. Isaiah 53: 3
Grief defines Messiah's singing a hymn or "grieving out a hymn."
Chalah (h2470) khaw-law'; a prim. root [comp. 2342, 2470, 2490]; prop. to be rubbed or worn; hence (fig.) to be weak, sick, afflicted; or (causat.) to grieve, make sick; also to stroke (in flattering),... woman in travail, be (become) weak, be wounded.
Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. Isaiah 53: 4
But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised (abraded to bits like the word psallo or melody) for our iniquities: the chastisement of our PEACE was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. Isaiah 53:5
BRUISED IS: Daka (h1792) daw-kaw'; a prim. root (comp. 1794); to crumble; trans. to bruise (lit. or fig.): - beat to pieces, break (in pieces), bruise, contrite, crush, destroy, humble, oppress, smite.
Daka (g1793) dak-kaw'; from 1792; crushed (lit. powder, or fig. contrite): - contrite, destruction.
Jesus would be MUSICALLY MOCKED. The word PSALLO from which the POWERS OF THE AIR get "music" is based on the Twanging bow string which "sings" you to death.
Psocho (g5597) pso'-kho; prol. from the same base as 5567; to triturate, i.e. (by anal.) to rub out (kernels from husks with the fingers or hand): - rub. Psomion (g5596) pso-mee'-on; dim. from a der. of the base of 5597; a crumb or morsel (as if rubbed off), i.e. a mouthful: - SOP.
Being "wounded" is the word for flute player, pollute, prostitute:
Chalal (h2490) khaw-lal'; a prim. root [comp. 2470]; prop. to bore, i. e. (by impl.) to wound, to dissolve; fig. to profane (a person, place or thing), to break (one's word), denom. (from 2485) to play (the flute):.. gather the grape thereof, * take inheritance, pipe, player on instruments, pollute, (cast as) profane (self), prostitute, slay (slain), sorrow, stain, wound.
Judas and clergy would "blow an alarm" to panic or triumph over Jesus:
But when the congregation is to be gathered (Qahal=synagogue=church in the wilderness) together, ye shall blow, but ye shall not sound an alarm. Num 10:7
Ruwa (h7321) roo-ah'; a prim. root; to mar (espec. by breaking); fig. to split the ears (with sound), i. e. shout (for alarm or joy): - blow an alarm, cry (alarm, aloud, out), destroy, make a joyful noise, smart, shout (for joy), sound an alarm, triumph.
All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. Isaiah 53:6
He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. Isaiah 53:7
Oppressed is: Nagas (h5065) naw-gas'; a prim. root; to drive (an animal, a workman, a debtor, an army); by impl. to tax, harass, tyrannize: - distress, driver, exact (-or), oppress (-or), * raiser of taxes, taskmaster.
Nagash (h5065) naw-gash'; a prim. root; to be or come (causat. bring) near (for any purpose); euphem. to lie with a woman; as an enemy, to attack; relig. to worship; causat. to present; fig. to adduce an argument; by reversal, to stand back: - (make to)
But I was like a lamb or an ox that is brought to the slaughter; and I knew not that they had devised devices against me, saying, Let us destroy the tree with the fruit thereof, and let us cut him off from the land of the living, that his name may be no more remembered (recognized). Jer 11:19
Shachath (h7843) shaw-khath'; a prim. root; to decay, i. e. (caus.) ruin (lit. or fig.): - batter, cast off, corrupt (-er, thing), destroy (- er, -uction), lose, mar, perish, spill, spoiler, * utterly, waste (-r).
However, Jesus said:
Come unto me all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Mt.11:28
The labor was imposed by musicians and rhetoricians and sOPHISts (serpents) to create spiritual anxiety to makey you violate the LAW OF TITHING and the LAW OF GIVING so the poor give to the rich.
Phortizo (g5412) for-tid'-zo; from 5414; to load up (prop. as aa vessel or animal), i.e. (fig.) to OVERBURDEN with ceremony (or SPIRITUAL ANXIETY): - lade, be heavy laden.
Phortos (g5414) for'-tos; from 5342; something carried, i.e. the cargo of a ship: - lading.
Phoros (g5411) for'-os; from 5342; a load (as borne,) i.e. (fig.) a tax (prop. an individ. assessment on persons or property; whereas 5056 is usually a gen. toll on goods or travel): - tribute.
Jesus only accepts worship in the NEW PLACE of the human spirit which becomes A holy spirit at baptism when we request cleansing from God. Then the rest of the Bible speaks of worshi in THE SPIRIT: musicial creators of anxiety CANNOT go there: all they can do is stand around the strait gate making it harder to find.
Rejoice IN THE LORD ALWAYS. I will say it again: Rejoice! (be calm) Let your gentleness be evident to all. The Lord is near. Do not be anxious about anything, but in everything, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present YOUR requests to God.
And the PEACE (quietness, rest) of God, which transcends all understanding,
will GUARD your hearts and your minds IN Christ Jesus. Philippians 4:4-7
People who have minimized the WORD by refusing to "teach it as it has been taught" CANNOT, WILL NOT grasp that. Jesus said PRAY IN THE CLOSET. Why? The PEACE will GUARD your heart just as a warrior Levite would execute a singer or musician who tried to enter into the "school of the Bible" and the "Most Holy Place" where worship takes place. But whuutt-uh ubout Davuud and his nakud danncce-ut?
Remember Psalm 150? Some of these instruments were profane: others could not be used in the temple even to smother the smell and sound of the slaughter of innocent animals. Well, the Psalms are poems and poems tend to be poetic. Therefore, the Psalmist restricted the INSTRUMENTS to those WHICH HAVE BREATH. Remember? Well, Habakkuk knew that musical instruments were idols or the HOMES of the idols. David often wanted to AWAKEN his lyre!
Woe to him who says to wood, 'Come to life!' Or to lifeless stone, 'Wake up!' Can it give guidance? It is covered with gold and silver; there is no breath in it. Hab 2:19
But the LORD is in his holy temple; let all the earth be silent before him." Hab 2:20
Being anxious is a PRODUCT of the assembly such as Corinth where "your assembly does more harm than good." The direct command of Jesus was to pray in your closet or the quietest, darkest center of the house.
The ONLY way NOT to be anxious is to "come learn of Me" as Jesus said:
Merimnao (g3309) mer-im-nah'-o; from 3308; to be anxious about: - (be, have) care (-ful), take thought. Merimna (g3308) mer'-im-nah; from 3307 (through the idea of distraction); solicitude: - care. Merizo (g3307) mer-id'-zo; from 3313; to part, i.e. (lit.) to apportion, bestow, share, or (fig.) to DISUNITE, differ: - deal, be difference between, distribute, divide, give part.
At baptism Jesus cleanses us and accepts us as DISCIPLES. This was DELIBERATELY to remove His disciples into "heavenly places" where the powers of the earth could not get in unless INVITED.
How utterly arrogant that the same "musical" people still INSIST that Jesus was a liar: you must PAY them to sing, play and preach!
So called "musical worship" is deliberated imposed knowing that it WILL DELIBERATELY SOW DISCORD. The goal is to aggrandize the performers and sell CDS. They KNOW that they will DISUNITE and created DIFFERENCES in churches with the totality of the Bible and church history calling them liars.
Both Peter and Paul could grasp that if you OPEN A CRACK the vipers will sneak in. That is why Paul could grasp Jesus Who said that we MUST worship IN the new PLACE of the human spirit. Paul said WHERE worship takes place and WHY if you make it a phoney ceremony the DOGS will want to eat from the table:
This will GUARD your heart from ANYTHING outside. Why? Why, because anyone who wants to FACILITATE your worship has an agenda from the POWERS IN HIGH PLACES (the podium is a high place or bema of paganism)
Beware of DOGS, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision. Phil 3:2
For we are the circumcision, which worship God IN THE SPIRIT, and rejoice IN Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh. Phil 3:3
Singers, clappers, dramatists, instrumentalists and rhetorical speakers appeal to the FLESH. Therefore, most churches put their total confidence into what they DO in the FLESH. It is impossible to GIVE HEED to theatrical performers (lusting or gagging) and give heed to God in Christ and His Word which is spirit and truth.
Don't try to WORK too hard or too legalistic: Jesus died to give us rest from burdens and burden laders. He never promised to be with more than two or three who come to HIM for rest and as He promised: "Come learn of me." Trying to "worship" God with our bodies or waving hands has 100% of everything I have ever found is CHARISMATIC which pagan, sexual and perverted sexual, emasculated and sex-changed "priests."
Next, I will show you that Judas whose "Judas bag" was a servant of the Kosmokrator: it carried the mouthpieces of wind instruments. It claimed to "speak in tongues" but "of the cosmos." Paul clearly claimed that the WORD is our our only instrument. We cannot use the "lifeless instrument" or "carnal weapon." The Hoplon could be a musical instrument as indeed ALL loud singing and playing instruments were instruments of Warfare.
We can always identify the principalities and powers in high places: they are doing everything in their little heart to PREVENT you from hearing the voice of God in Christ. This is Paul's unique "worship" word. The church is a synagogue or school of the Bible. What can we say of people who insist that they must sing, clap, dance, play instruments and dramatize (hypocrite sect) while Jesus is trying to speak to us as SPIRIT through His Word? I shudder for you because you are fulfilling the MARKS and the time is right--I pray with all my heart.
piney.com & the Siblet church of satan's snake venom. . .
June 9 2004, 10:59 AM
piney.com & the Siblet church of satan's snake venom. . .
Ken says - "Singers, clappers, dramatists, instrumentalists and rhetorical speakers appeal to the FLESH. . ."
The Bible says - "praise him with harp and lyre" Psalms 150
Ken says - "Trying to "worship" God with our bodies or waving hands has 100% of everything I have ever found is CHARISMATIC which pagan, sexual and perverted sexual, emasculated and sex-changed "priests."
The Bible says - "praise him with tambourine and dancing" Psalms 150
Ken says - "Next, I will show you that Judas whose "Judas bag" was a servant of the Kosmokrator: it carried the mouthpieces of wind instruments. It claimed to "speak in tongues" but "of the cosmos."
The Bible says - "praise him with the strings and flute" Psalms 150
Ken says - "What can we say of people who insist that they must sing, clap, dance, play instruments and dramatize"
i say - We can say that people who worship God with instruments are following scripture, that is what we can say.
The Bible says - "praise him with the clash of cymbals, praise him with resounding cymbals" Psalms 150
As much as Ken may want that Psalms 150 wasn't in the Bible, it is, and it was written by David, the man, whom God said was after his own heart.
Ken says - "We can always identify the principalities and powers in high places: they are doing everything in their little heart to PREVENT you from hearing the voice of God in Christ."
i say - yes, yes you did get that one right Ken.
Your heart is quite little. . .
Your fear of Christ's work inhis body,his church,his bride, is quite evident. . .
May God the Father, the Godof Jesus of Nazareth our Lord, show the mercy to you that you are so void of. . .
May the God of David, Abraham, John and Paul release you from the torment of the demons within you. . .
May he give you the peace Satan has robbed from you. . .
May you in turn put as much effort into sharing Christ's love with your own family as you put into the venom of Satan you spew about the world. . .
Certainly we cannot judge a person who choses to worship the Lord without instruments of praise. We are to worship the Lord with our whole heart, soul and mind. This can be done without instruments.
On the other hand the New Testament tells us to praise the Lord with Psalms.
These are understood to have musical accompany.
As were the Psalms of David.
Cannot see where its say a Psalm is no longer a Psalm in the New Testament.
Another verse in the NT tell us we will be judged with the judgement we use against others.
If we can understand that our righteousness was imputed to us, "credited", by the righteouness of Christ,
when he lived a sinless life and become the perfect sacrifice for OUR sins once for all time. That when he said IT IS FINISHED, he meant the work of righteouness to save our souls is complete, endless controversies about music and such become very insignificant.
If we thing our actions and our performance and our righteousness have any contibution to our salvation, it becomes our whole life, because then our performance, or in other word OUR getting it right and following the right path etc, etc is what saves, not the FINISHED work of CHRIST.
When we say some person cannot be saved if they use instruments of praise, or that it is a salvation issue, you have drawn a line so thin with such a judgement that yourself would have to live a pefect life, for the word says we all stumble in many way.
So David and all the house of Israel brought up the ark of the Lord with SHOUTING, and with the CLANGOR of the TRUMPET. 2 Sam 6:15
Teruwah (h8643) ter-oo-aw'; from 7321; clamor, i. e. acclamation of joy or a battle-cry; espec. clangor of trumpets, as an alarum: - alarm, blow (-ing) (of, the) (trumpets), joy, JUBILE, loud noise, rejoicing, shout (-ing), (high, joyful) sound (-ing).
I saw them blowing trumpets with Halal males raising hands around the Asherah poles at Jubilee 98. The idea of holding a JUBILEE came from the Pope but it UTTERLY REPUDIATES the fact that God in Christ fulfilled the Jubilee just as He did Passover. They had tried to wash away baptism with Max Lucado in Jubilee 97. They KNEW that they were blowing the BATTLE CRY just as surely as "musical ministers" sound the Battle Cry against the Word and Jesus as the ONLY mediatory without song or sermon.
This has the same meaniong of the battle cry of all nations: this is not worship but the signal for OPEN WARFARE. The "singers and musicians" use their earthly hands and talent to threaten people away from their own property. At Mount Sinai when they rose up to PLAY it was the musical, idolatrous worship of the Egyptian triad. As usual, it involved sexuality and homosexuality
Ruwa (h7321) roo-ah'; a prim. root; to mar (espec. by breaking); fig. to split the ears (with sound), i. e. shout (for alarm or joy): - blow an alarm, cry (alarm, aloud, out), destroy, make a joyful noise, smart, shout (for joy), sound an alarm, triumph.
This was the battle cry: in Numbers 10:7 when the ASSEMBLY or synagogue (Qahal) was to be called together they could sound the trumpet but not in the form of the alarm or triumph over. It was the TRIUMPH OVER which the pagan Jewish singers and musicians from the signal of JUDAS would attempt to mock and defeat Jesus with the fear of warfare.
And as the ark of the Lord came into the city of David, Michal Sauls daughter looked through a window, and saw king David leaping and dancing before the Lord; and she despised him in her heart. 2 Sam 6:16
Then David returned to bless his household. And Michal the daughter of Saul came out to meet David, and said, How glorious was the king of Israel to day, who uncovered himself to day in the eyes of the handmaids of his servants, as one of the vain fellows shamelessly uncovereth himself 2 Sam 6:20
"Nah-na, nan-a-nan-uh: you are just jealous!"
And David said unto Michal, It was before the Lord, which chose me before thy father, and before all his house, to appoint me ruler over the people of the Lord, over Israel: therefore will I play before the Lord. 2 Sam 6:21
This Play is identical to the "play" or mocking, singing and GRINDING which Samson was forced to perform in the king's house. Well, grinders, as in Revelation 18 along with the singers and musicians were also concubines and prostitutes. The word David used is h7832 which is identical to h6711 which was the PLAY as Israel "rose up to play" meaning the musical idolatry of Egypt.
Michal had no more dealing with him and David made sure that all but one crippled son of Saul were killed: one made into a human sacrifice. When David praised he made himself vile: God cannot punish the insane in all cultures.
Qalal (g7043)kaw-lal'; a prim. root; to be (caus. make) light, lit. (swift, small, sharp, etc.) or fig. (easy, trifling, vile, etc.): - abate, make bright, bring into contempt, (ac-) curse, despise, (be) ease (- y, -ier), (be a, make, make somewhat, move, seem a, set) light (- en, - er, -ly, - ly afflict, -ly esteem, thing), * slight [-ly], be swift (- er), (be, be more, make, re-) vile, whet.
And I will yet be more vile than thus, and will be base in mine own sight : and of the maidservants which thou hast spoken of, of them shall I be had in honour . 2 Sam 6:22
David was never the song writer or praise leader for the temple: this happened after his death. Then the temple SOWED DISCORD and fell within five years of Solomon's death and civil war. When David prophesied or praised with slavers drooling from his mouth he intended to show the Philistine king that he should be pitied for his insanity.
The "praise" in Psalm 150 is sometimes used in a good sense that people sing and jump around when something good happens. However, the dominant meaning of PRAISE is:
Halal (g1984) haw-lal'; a prim. root; to be clear (orig. of sound, but usually of color); to shine; hence to make a show, to boast; and thus to be (clamorously) foolish; to rave; causat. to celebrate; also to stultify: - (make) boast (self), celebrate, commend, (deal, make), fool (- ish, -ly), glory, give [light], be (make, feign self) mad (against), give in marriage, [sing, be worthy of] praise, rage, renowned, shine.
The word lucifer (ZOE superior to Jesus or Logos) is derived from the word PRAISE more than the light of VENUS. If you take this literally as a COMMAND for Christian "worship" here is what you are engaged in:
Heylel (h1966) hay-lale'; from 1984 (in the sense of brightness); the morning-star: - lucifer.
Praise ye the Lord. "MAKE YOURSELF MAD" before God in his sanctuary: praise him in the firmament of his power. Psa 150:1
"MAKE YOURSELF MAD" for his mighty acts: praise him according to his excellent greatness. Psa 150: 2
"MAKE YOURSELF MAD" with the sound of the trumpet: "MAKE YOURSELF MAD" with the psaltery and harp. Psa 150: 3
"MAKE YOURSELF MAD" with the timbrel and DANCE: "MAKE YOURSELF VILE" with stringed instruments and organs. Psa 150: 4
"MAKE YOURSELF VILE" upon the loud cymbals: "MAKE YOURSELF MAD" upon the high sounding cymbals. Psa 150: 5
Let every thing that hath breath praise the Lord. Praise ye the Lord. Psa 150: 6
David also claimed that God loved him because he was "PERFECTLY SINLESS." The statement that David was "a man after God's heart" was said when he was young. Furthermore, it just means that God picked him. All of the monarchy would lead Israel and Judah into captivity and death.
Halal has about the same meaning as:
Chalal (h2490))khaw-lal'; a prim. root [comp. 2470]; prop. to bore, i. e. (by impl.) to wound, to dissolve; fig. to profane (a person, place or thing), to break (one's word), to begin (as if by an "opening wedge"); denom. (from 2485) to PLAY (THE FLUTE) - begin (* men began), defile, * break, defile, * eat (as common things), * first, * gather the grape thereof, * take inheritance, PIPE, player on INSTRUMENTS, pollute, (cast as) profane (self), PROSTITUTE, slay (slain), sorrow, stain, wound.
Which is interchangeable in two Psalms with:
Nagan (h5059) naw-gan'; a prim. root; prop. to thrum, i. e. beat a tune with the fingers; espec. to play on a stringed instrument; hence (gen.) to make music: - player on instruments, sing to the stringed instruments, melody, ministrel, play (-er, -ing..
And they come unto thee as the people cometh, and they sit before thee as my people, and they hear thy words, but they will not do them:
for with their mouth they shew much love, but their heart goeth after their covetousness . Eze 33:31
And, lo, thou art unto them as a very lovely (sexual) song
of one that hath a pleasant voice,
and can PLAY well on an instrument:
for they hear thy words, BUT they do them not. Eze.33:32
Remember that PSALLO or MELODY is a Greek and not a Hebrew word. The Hebrew just means PRAISES. However, all forms of the word "psallo" or making melody relate to warfare against the "gods." The "musical" words speak of ORGE which can mean "just get irrationally angry." It also means what happens in the musical, charismatic pagan worship rituals. They were all, like David, an attempt to show God how humble he was by making himself as vile and repulsive as possible.
The pagans were actually in OVERT WARFARE with their gods: you can get more by threats than prayers.
These words are heavily laced with the LOCUST. Apollo had been worshipped because he defeated the Locusts or "muses" or musical performers. John alludes to the Classics when he tells us that Apollo, Abaddon or Apollyon will unleash the locusts. They will make music for some but STING others with their tails. We are there.
For the record...
1. Ken is nuts.
2. This is a waste of time
3. John York doesn't preach at Otter Creek, although he is a great preacher!
4. It's about time people stopped listening to the "spritual terrorists" among us...namely those who write such wacked out stuff as I have read here.
5. I have a lot invested in the ministry at OC. Ken has no impact on the good work that is happening for the Kingdom there. We stand with spiritual armor against such petty schemes and feeble arrows.
6. There is a world of people out there who need Christ. Newsflash...they aren't interested in this kind of debate. I agree with an earlier commentor up there..get off your butts and make a difference.
Signed,
a brother in Christ, whether you like it or not
> Lucifer Harry Thurston Peck, Harpers Dictionary of Classical Antiquities (1898)
is Phosphorus (Phôsphoros, "the bringer of light"). The name of the planet Venus, when seen in the morning before sunrise. The same planet was called Hesperus, Vesperugo, Vesper, Noctifer, or Nocturnus, when it appeared in the heavens after sunset. Lucifer as a personification is called a son of Astraeus and Aurora or Eos, of Cephalus and Eos
1 Lucifer, or Hesperus, may for its beauty be connected with Aphrodite (and so got the further name of Venus ).
2 The cult of Aphrodite flourished among all the eastern peoples.
3 Venus.
4 Hermes being the god of escort or attendance.
5 Mars, Jupiter, and Saturn
> lampas lights used in Bacchic ceremonies, or in festal processions, phainete, faggot, luchnis, helios identified with Apollo, Abaddon or Apollyon of the book of Revelation.
2. faggot, Plb.3.93.4 metaph., of the sun, the coming light, of lightning, metaph., of life, lampada gar zôas. Hêliou astêr, of the planet Saturn (666)
Both eos and zoe apply both to light and life. Eos and Zoe are both identified as th mother or sister or even lucifer herself:
> Eos is used of the Musae who were the musical arbitrators or mediators. They are life or phôs, Êôs the goddess of dawn, Latin aurora.
2. day, katêïen es dusin ê. Musae; mesatê ê (arbitrator).
Hislop notes the universal message of women or effemate males being seduced by the serpent, nachash or "musical enchanter." In the message of Revelation they are sorcerers or witches.
4th, the whole system must be dovetailed together. As the mother of the gods was equally the mother of mankind, Semiramis, or Astarte, must also be identified with Eve; and the name Rhea, which, according to the Paschal Chronicle was given to her, sufficiently proves her identification with Eve.
Rheia , Ep. for rhea, rha (qq. v.), (sts. elided, Il.15.356, Od.17.273), Adv. of rhaidios, easily, lightly, freq. in Hom. (v. infr.) and Hes. (Op.6, al., but rhea ib.5); theoi rheia zôontes the gods who live at ease, Il.6.138, Od.4.805; toutoisin men tauta melei, kitharis kai aoidê, rheia lightly, pleasantly,
kithar-is ,means chraismêi (to ward off) and with aoidê. Kitharists were known to perform the "pretend" task of sorcery and were therefore parasites.
Odes are not to be sung audibly but "in the heart" because they are spells or incantation.
Hislop notes:As applied to the common mother of the human race, the name Astarte is singularly appropriate; for, as she was Idaia mater, "The mother of knowledge," the question is, "How did she come by that knowledge?" To this the answer can only be: "by the fatal investigations she made."
It was a tremendous experiment she made, when, in opposition to the Divine command, and in spite of the threatened penalty,
she ventured to "search" into that forbidden knowledge which her Maker in his goodness had kept from her.
Thus she took the lead in that unhappy course of which the Scripture speaks--"God made man upright, but they have SOUGHT out many inventions" (Eccl 7:29).
Now Semiramis, deified as the Dove, was Astarte in the most gracious and benignant form. Lucius Ampelius calls her "the goddess benignant and merciful to me" (bringing them) "to a good and happy life." In reference to this benignity of her character, both the titles, Aphrodite and Mylitta, are evidently attributed to her. The first I have elsewhere explained as "The wrath-subduer," and the second is in exact accordance with it. Mylitta, or, as it is in Greek, Mulitta, signifies "The Mediatrix." The Hebrew Melitz, which in Chaldee becomes Melitt, is evidently used in Job 33:23, in the sense of a Mediator; "the messenger, the interpreter" (Melitz), who is "gracious" to a man, and saith, "Deliver from going down to the pit: I have found a ransom," being really "The Messenger, the MEDIATOR." Parkhurst takes the word in this sense, and derives it from "Mltz," "to be sweet."
Now, the feminine of Melitz is Melitza, from which comes Melissa, a "bee" (the sweetener, or producer of sweetness), and Melissa, a common name of the priestesses of Cybele, and as we may infer of
Cybele, as Astarte, or Queen of Heaven, herself; for, after Porphyry, has stated that "the ancients called the priestesses of Demeter, Melissae," he adds, that they also "called the Moon Melissa." We have evidence, further, that goes far to identify this title as a title of Semiramis. Melissa or Melitta (APPOLODORUS)--for the name is given in both ways--is said to have been the mother of Phoroneus, the first that reigned, in whose days the dispersion of mankind occurred, divisions having come in among them, whereas before, all had been in harmony and spoke one language (Hyginus).
There is no other to whom this can be applied but Nimrod; and as Nimrod came to be worshipped as Nin, the son of his own wife, the identification is exact.
Katein means to bring down or to go down to the grave. Dusin means the setting or hiding place of the sun. Musae
Harry Thurston Peck, Harpers Dictionary of Classical Antiquities (1898) defines the MUSES who "ministered" to Apollo or Abaddon or Apollyon in the book of Revelation.
And the voice of harpers, and musicians (Muses), and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee; Rev 18:22
The craftsman is the Greek Techne: they include stage directors and house or theater builders. The "grinders" in Hebrew speak of the concubines or prostitutes.
Musae (Mousai). In Greek mythology the Muses were originally the nymphs of springs, whose waters gave inspiration, such as Hippocrené, Castalia, etc.; then goddesses of song in genera. They are all female and are considered goddesses dwelling in Olympus, who at the meals of the gods sing sweetly to the lyre of Apollo. They are the nine daughters of Zeus. [Apollo is at times the sun god or Saturn. Saturn's Chaldee (sounding brass, astrology) number is 666.
(1) Callio(pé (she of the fair voice), in Hesiod the noblest of all, the Muse of epic song; among her attributes are a wax tablet and a pencil.
(2) Clio (she that extols), the Muse of history; with a scroll.
(3) Euterpé (she that gladdens), the Muse of lyric song; with the double flute.
(4) Thali-a (she that flourishes), the Muse of comedy and bucolic poetry; with the comic mask, the ivy wreath, and the shepherd's staff.
(5) Melpomené (she that sings), the Muse of tragedy; with tragic mask, ivy wreath, and occasionally with attributes of individual heroes-- e. g. the club, the sword.
(6) Terpsichoré (she that rejoices in the dance), the Muse of dancing; with the lyre.
(7) Erato (the lovely one), the Muse of erotic poetry; with a smaller lyre.
(8) Polymnia or Polyhymnia (she that is rich in hymns), the Muse of serious sacred songs; usually represented as veiled and pensive.
(9) Urania (the heavenly), the Muse of astronomy; with the celestial globe.
> Zoe has the same meaning as Eos . The word ZOE in gnosticism is the mother-sister of "jehovah" and superior to Logos or Jesus Christ. She is the SHINING ONE and also the giver of life. The word for life is ZOE.
zôê-living, i.e. one's substance, property
zeidôros , on, zea-giving , zeidôros aroura, some authors derived it from zaô,= biodôros , life-giving, Aphroditê Emp.151 ; Êelios. Lucifer is the Hebrew heylel, from brightness. zeidôros used with pherô (Locr. pharô burden). hêlios, êelioio to see the light of life, Helios, the sun-god. Hêliou astêr, of the planet Saturn (Number is 666). Heliacal Rising is about the end of September. but also eis phôs ienai to come into the light, i.e. into public,
zôos; zôon helein (heresy) tina to take prisoner,
zôos alive, living, Homer, Hdt., etc.; zôon helein tina to take prisoner, Il.; zôon labein Xen.
zôogoneô to be viviparous, produce alive, parthenon, of Zeus. zôê,= graus, the scum on milk,
zeô to bubble up with passion or rage. zôoô to impregnate.
zaô
I. to live, Hom., etc.; elenchiste zôontôn vilest of living men, Od.; zôein kai horan phaos êelioio Il.; rheia zôontes living at ease, of the gods, id=Il.; zôn katakauthênai to be burnt alive, Hdt.:--also, zên apo tinos to live off or on a thing, Theogn., Hdt., etc.:-- to zên zôê
II. metaph. to be in full life and strength, to be fresh, be strong, atês thuellai zôsi Aesch.; aei zêi tauta [nomima] Soph.; zôsa phlox living fire.
Mid September to Mid October is the Heliacal Rising to MARK the season but will not give the day or hour. I would stay at home. It is simply NOT possible to believe that MUSIC is not radically condemned throughout the Bible and is always associated with people who have made the terminal decision to spit out the Word they once MAY have tasted. Paul to the Hebrews warns of those who sow discord and wreck the reverence:
God is still a consuming fire: and that is what they are praying for.
C. Leonard Allen has his drip, drip of new books all the time. Unfortunately, C. isn't too keen on the Biblical or historical facts and OOZES a virulant contempt for churches of Christ who did not and will not BOW TO BAAL when the musical priesthood PIPES.
Furthermore, with Max Lucado and Rubel Shelly he is promoting the "Holy Trinity" of the Family of Gods which is blasphemy. Nevertheless, bashing your more spiritual brethren has always been a way to MAKE a fast BUCK or....
By separating out the god family or tribe or standing committee they can tell you with a straight fact that ALL THAT'S LEFT is seven facts ABOUT Jesus. All of the rest is up for grabs. That means, according to Shellyites "partnering with God" for a new set of authority which fits OUR culture.
The "authorities" from the church of Christ and Charles Wesley BOTH repudiated the TRINITY or polytheism and BOTH repudiated "music" as something only those devoid of A holy spirit might enjoy. Unfortunately, the Church of God "scholar" of the Wesly Church of God does not have a clue even as C. Leonard and others of the NEW SCRIBAL CRAFT know nothing of people they quote.
The obligatory PUNCH IN THE PAUNCH is to accuse churches of Christ with getting its theology from John Locke: They ALL say that and I am betting that not a ONE of them has read John Locke or they could not lie about the FATHER of their political and religious freedom to peddle untruth.
We have looked at the ZOE GROUP posted review by a church of Goder and one suspects that he is looking for ENDORSEMENTS for his many NEW books. Aren't we being FLOOD AWAY as a church with stuff spewing out of pagan mouths?
I have done a quick study but you can read the ACTUAL words of those lied about in this PROMO for Hate Mongering. We will fix it if the SPIRIT PERSON moves us separate and apart from and beyond the sacred page.
Iam listening to a ZOEY song right now and the close harmony is exactly what the Jewish Encyclopedia says that Jesus would have heard: screeching and screaming and it HURTS my serotonin pool and makes me want to FLEE.
I'm surprised you all haveen't mentioned that the Zoe Conference was held this weekend and denominational speaker brian McLaren was the keynote speaker. Jeff Walling and Mike Cope were also significant speakers, and Brandon Scott Thomas, Keith Lancaster, and Ken young lead the songs.
According to the Zoe group website, there were almost 1100 poeple there. Is Look to the Hills becoming the new Jubilee?
Yes, I noticed the boasting about the attendance when I was doing some work on the Stone Campbell Movement the new pneumatologicl movement of those BLOWING the winds of change. The Stone Campbell Sect lies that the Restoration movement was fathered by Barton W. Stone at Cane Ridge which is quite identical to ancient and modern devil worship. After the REFORMATION, John Calvin devoted a lot of attention to a RESTORATION MOVEMENT. The Campbells returned to the Bible for faith and practice. The "prophets, chanellers and facilitators" once out of ACU claimed that restoring the church to the New Testament model was a primative frontier mindset. I am working on Calvin and you might click through looking for RESTOR..
The Stone Campbell workshop is, like the ZOE GROUP as was Jubilee, a TRAFFICKING seminar. I will bet every GROUP and GROUPY trying to get them to CUT a CD or give them some promo will be there. And don't forget the architects, acoustics engineers, Audio equipment peddlers, book peddlers, published CDs, fund raisers,Recording Studios, agents, booking agents, brochure printers and two fishes and several loaves and don't forget, lots of RICE.
Furthermore, Red Neck Rob can collect more than a thousand to watch lawn mower races. And the walking horse people can get more than that to watch crippled and twisted horses "walk."
Further furthermore, watching theatrical performers is like watching an air race to see the flaming smash up or WASTED TIME AGAIN.
"Of particular interest is the way that early modern playwrights, music theorists, and theater apologists addressed this conflated language of the "enemy," by echoing the same connections between sexuality and playing found in the most virulent antitheatrical tracts.
"As this paper will demonstrate, by "playing" with the conflated language, these writers defended their art,
justifying their existence in a society that was both seduced and repulsed by them. By claiming the polemical antitheatrical language, these players escaped from the ideological margins to which their opponents had tried to relegate them.
Using the artifices of mimesis (imitation) and comedy they pointed out and
defused their opponents' anxieties about music, theater, and sexuality,
creating a space for players in the cultural mainstream
Here is a new attack page exposing the "naked" Stone Campbell Movement which are the good people who facilitated the GREAT LEAP FORWARD at Madison from about 3,300 (5,000 elder's count! Sound about right?) to about 1,400 or so with 325 in the jail.
You will notice that there is a small chain of performers who can seduce the non spiritual out to get their money and applause to give SOME meaning to people who believe that A holy (wholly) Spirit God can be worshipped in houses made by human hands or by the HANDS themselves. Worship is in the NEW PLACE of the human SPIRIT and charismatic worship has let the WRONG spirit slip in.
Yes, Look to the Hills is a Jubilee (for the atonement) offspring.
Yes, I have read some of the stuff. People think that if you can sell something you will SUCK IN THE SEEKERS. He is "pastor" of a Community Church which is where Otter got its tale. I can guarantee you that if Jesus was the HEAD KNOCKER of one of these pandering and peddling programs these people WOULD NOT listen to Him.
In fact, the musical mocking PROVES that they have the MARK of Cain which means a musical note and the MARK of Judas which was part of the flute case because he was a thief. If they will SILENCE the voice of the SON Who speaks the only thing we are going to hear from the FATHER, they would not hesitate to do Him damage. The case is defacto proven: you worship those to whom you GIVE HEED. It simply cannot be refuted.
Furthermore, God makes it absolute that He will provide a MARK where they did not have a clue to the meaning of ZOE (life) just as the charismatics have no clue that CHARA or GRACE was a perverted goddess with a perverted priesthood. Christ the SPIRIT in Scripture uses the GRACE or CHARA word to fool the fools (Matthew 13). ALL of these slurped up words are POINTERS: we are supposed to be smart enough to LOOK where Jesus or Paul POINTS so that we do not have to use sexual practices to BIND THE SPIRIT AND FLESH TOGETHER. That is, we do NOT have to prove our legalism and superstition by thinking that the AROUSAL is a "holy" spirit.
I suppose that you can be so disconnected from the HEAD that you would invite any false teacher in as the ATTRACTANT if you are 100% mercenary. However, ANY quality of spirituality and minimal knowledge of the Living Word through the Written Word would not feed the people a SERPENT when they think that they are getting BREAD.
Brian believes in BELIEVER'S BAPTISM which originated in 1525 and is identical to the ancient PAGAN BAPTISMS. Again, the pagans thought that they were being baptized BECAUSE they were already pure and it was just SHOW AND TELL. This means that ZOE, their church and the local scholarly facilitators PREACH just what Brian believes.
100% of the Bible, contemporaneous documents, the Classics, the church Fathers, founders of denominations, medical science and common sense repudiates the MUSIC concept as a WORSHIP scheme. The Lucifer Principle is to BLEED OFF worship due only to God and performed in the NEW PLACE of the human spirit devoted to prayer and the Word as the Spirit, Life, and Truth AS OPPOSED to these word concepts worshipped in paganism.
The NEW SCHOLARS have led the "women and children" to repudiate 100% of the evidence and claim that just the opposite is the truth. How and why do they do that? It's a Mark: the Locusts are musical performers. The apollo is the abaddon or apollyon John had in mind in the book of Revelation.
In the same way, the prophecy was of God washing His people, Mark defines baptism as the beginning (most important teaching), the last great command of Jesus before He was MUSICALLY MOCKED to the cross, Peter's understanding that along with Paul and everyone believing that Jesus MEANT it when He made baptism the MEANS in the sense of time and place where we REQUEST A holy spirit or A good conscience or consciousness. The fact that they are not remotely baptizing people is that they are NOT helping them to be the Disciples of Christ who are the ONLY Christians. No, don't spill out that "sincere" junk: if you are a disciple of these TRAFFICKERS you CANNOT be a disciple of Christ. The are the original MUSICAL SECTARIANS and I hope they are getting fitted for a millstone.
While the early "church of Christ" began to "boil the frog" by adding sprinkling as CLINICAL BAPTISM, the church fathers and everyone up to ZWINGLI preached that baptism was REQUIRED. Luther: faith only meant that you believed the BIBLE ONLY and because the Bible told him so, faith only meant BAPTISM ONLY. Now, to suddenly decide that these jokesters can PARTNER with God to make that obsolete is the MARK of God pouring out His CUP of wrath by making them into BUFFOONS.
But, not to be too judgmental: if they wanted to PURCHASE my typing out the Bible and make me WEALTHY I worry that the "flattery" would be the final TESTING OF SATAN and I, too, might become a "singing and harp playing prostitute." They kill prophets, you know, and applause is the MARK that God is God and these people are not. I think that the "scholars" among them know that you cannot differ with the BIBLE GURU and keep getting your bread buttered (or whatever) but Jesus and Paul warned you that following the Suffering Servant demands being despised and rejected of men and probably having to find an honest job if you don't have the MARK. I can prove what I say: just wait for one of them to try to prove that Jesus didn't mean what He died for. Yes, Jesus died for congregational singing. But, not A Cappella which means "the castrated ones" because MECHANICAL instruments were not useful in the Sistine Chapel where they COULD NOT be used in the presence of the Pope. That means that they believed that you HAD BETTER NOT try to get into the presence of God in Christ (the Spirit) with a machine.
For PRACTICAL PURPOSES Brian POURS: that proves that they will not follow Jesus anywhere!
So what are you trying to say? Are you trying to say that ZOE is BAD??? We had a women minister attend the ZOE conference this weekend and she said that it was FANTASTIC!!
Fantastic \Fan*tas"tic\, a. [F. fantastique, fr. Gr. ??????????? able to represent, fr. ????????? to make visible. See {Fancy}.] 1. Existing only in imagination; fanciful; imaginary; not real; chimerical.
2. Having the nature of a phantom; unreal. --Shak.
3. Indulging the vagaries of imagination; whimsical; full of absurd fancies; capricious; as, fantastic minds; a fantastic mistress.
4. Resembling fantasies in irregularity, caprice, or eccentricity; irregular; oddly shaped; grotesque.
There at the foot of yonder nodding beech, That wreathes its old fantastic roots so high. --T. Gray.
Syn: Fanciful; imaginative; ideal; visionary; capricious; chimerical; whimsical; queer. See {Fanciful}.
The chimera
The ??????????? is:
phantas-iôdês, fantastic, unreal, imaginary
2. ph. hupnoitroubled by dreams
II. showy, pompous, of persons,
Amos 6:1 WOE to them that are at ease in Zion, and trust in the mountain of Samaria, which are named chief of the nations, to whom the house of Israel came
Amos 6:3 Ye that put far away the evil day, and cause the seat of violence to come near;
Amos 6:4 That lie upon beds of ivory, and stretch themselves upon their couches, and eat the lambs out of the flock, and the calves out of the midst of the stall;
Amos 6:5 That chant to the sound of the viol, and invent to themselves instruments of musick, like David;
Amos 6:6 That drink wine in bowls, and anoint themselves with the chief ointments: but they are not grieved for the affliction of Joseph.
Is.5:12 And the harp, and the viol, the tabret, and pipe, and wine, are in their feasts: but they regard not the work of the Lord, neither consider the operation of his hands.
Is.14:11 Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the NOISE of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms [maggots] cover thee.
God DID NOT say that a father and son could have ritual sex with the same "church" PROSTITUTE (always a musician) IF they were concerned with CAUSING the grief of the whole NATION. The MAGGOTS speaks of HELL which had been king Solomon's MUSIC GROVE.
panêgur-ikos of or for a PUBLIC festival or ASSEMBLY, poluteleia, kosmos,
II. generally, solemn, festive, logos festival oration, such as those pronounced at the Olympic games, panegyric, eidos [tês rhêtorikês] A RHETORIKES performed the function of SORCERY.
2. flattering, false, of style, showy, ostentatious, opp. alêthinos, D.H.Dem.8; of persons, pompous, gunê sobara kai p.
The JUDAS BAG was for carrying the mouth pieces of wind instruments. It is made up of SPEAKING IN TONGUE and OF THE WORLD or KOSMOS
pompous, is like TRIUMPH OVER: In Psaul 41 "Judas will not TRIUMPH OVER Jesus." That was OUTLAWED for the synagogue and it means to "play music and 'make a joyful noise before the Lord'." That was the Levitical Warrior "musicians" PANIC MUSIC.
"Philodemus considered it paradoxical that music should be regarded as veneration of the gods while musicians were paid for performing this so-called veneration. Again, Philodemus held as self deceptive the view that music mediated religious ecstasy. He saw the entire condition induced by the noise of cymbals and tambourines as a disturbance of the spirit.
He found it significant that, on the whole, only women and effeminate men fell into this folly.
Accordingly, nothing of value could be attributed to music; it was no more than a slave of the sensation of pleasure, which satisfied much in the same way that food and drink did.
Paul commanded DON'T PLEASURE YOURSELVES just as Jesus DID NOT PLEASURE Himself. ONLY then can you GLORIFY GOD with ONE MIND and ONE VOICE and then only if you speak THAT WHICH IS WRITTEN.
Zoe is EVE and Paul told you that EVE was wholly seduced by the serpent which was a MUSICAL ENCHANTER. Zoe is LUCIFER the "singing and harp-playing prostitute." Zoe is zoon the BEAST PEOPLE or Aphrodite or Helios meaning Rubel Shelly's S.U.N. god to think of the S.O.N. God
I think their GUEST CELEBRITY to collect the flies THINKS that "this too will pass" and the TROUBLERS IN ZION will wake up some day and do a JUDAS for the woe they have brought on the churches--who WILL NOT GO THERE and God is using the "musical locusts" to separate those with the MARK OF CAIN (a musical note) from those MARKED by Christ at baptism and by the WORD.
J.D. did the women "ministers" chase away your preacher?
I just read through the postings on this topic. There is very little that answers the originators question that was asked months ago. Otter Creek has a good website for information. I don't know how John York was put into this mix - Tim Woodroof is the minister at Otter Creek NOT John York. If you profess to know about a church, should you not get the name of their minister correct???
FHU has a slick-Willie habit of inviting in NEUTRALS or Pro-instrumentalists and then stacking the deck with people who CANNOT defend the Biblical and 100% historical repudiation of MUSIC in worshiping of God.
This time it was WOODMONT HILLS and OTTER CREEK versus Marlin Connelly and Philip Slate neither of whom is equiped to UNMASK the fibs and fabrications of those LUSTING to sow discord.
The Theme is A LIGHT TO THE NATIONS: these are the same people who sent out a MISSIONARY TEAM dressed as gargoyles (griffins or demons) to musically and theatrically spread the LIGHT. Lucifer is the son of the morning and ZOE is the MOTHER GODDESS and giver of both light and life.
Terry Briley will speak about ISAIAH and undoubtedly tell everyone about the worship in ISRAEL: "There's nothing wrong with their worship." We have take the flat of the beaver to that whopper.
In 1991 they had Bill Swetmon "dressed up" as neutral but was ready to ZAP the "traditionalists" who didn't know what hit them. Of course, if you are more than careless with the TRUTH it is pretty hard to defend.
It simply is NOT remotely possible to defend such universally-perverted "worship" without lying about the FACTS.
Tim WILL NOT debate this issue on this FORUM because he knows that ONLY at lectureships which give DIVINE PERMISSION to teach error and AMONG THE SCHOLARS could he get away with false teaching.
He is permitted to use an ANNIE MOUSE dodge and offer just ONE PROOF as authority to deliberately TRY to convince others to join the MUSICAL HERESY.
If someone can post or mail me a transcript we will UNMASK them.
First of all, Ken, Tim won't respond on this forum because he has better things to do. Like, oh, I don't know, minister to the hurting people in our community. (Hummm....maybe some of us should follow his Christ-like example).
Secondly, whoever was talking about Zoe's latest release, it's awesome. I was there when they recorded a large bit of it, and it's a great CD. I can't wait to get my own copy.
And, finally, the debate about OC is fruitless. We are not going to change our worship methods because of some crazies out in cyber space somewhere. We have an awesome church. An amazing group of people who love God and who will jump at any available opportunity to serve Him. OC is a missions-minded church that has changed my world.
Lewis (buried up the hill) and Clark loved beaver until they discovered the AWESOMNESS of dog.
I keep forgetting: do otters have ROUND tales or FLAT tales?
I know about Beavers: they dam up my Piney creek.
No one ever expected Tim to respond: that is the oath of silence to trivialize both the Bible and those who defend it. Tim won't respond because Tim CANNOT respond. He depends on MUSIC to do mind control so he can tell you all of those urban legends and accept an UNLAWFUL and ungodly wage from ungodly and legalistic TITHING and the unlawful and legalistic LAW OF GIVING. The Law of SANGING makes the unholy trinity without which Tim would have to tune up his banjo or sell used computers.
Check out this FREE SERMON (nothing Christian is for sale and nothing for sale is Christian) to see that you are going to build YOUR church on the Foundation of the Apostates and Profits.
No literate person can believe that ANY form of music is not TOTALLY CONDEMNED in the Bible and UNIVERSALLY a mark of warfare and the perverted religionism where Sophia and Zoe replace Inanna, the holy whore of Babylon. Right on time for Revelation 18:22.
I need to feed you some of the iBelieve.com material which makes it certain that the Bible and most of church history connects performance preachers to "singers and musicians" as practicing sorcery and are therefore PARASITES. You have been taken captive and ZOE or LUCIFER or the EVE principle has taken you captive and OF COURSE it is just AWESOME. But, uh! Our God is an AWEFUL God and for those who lack reverence and Godly fear He is still A CONSUMING FIRE. Isn't that one of the Zoeite themes? Along with LOOK TO THE HILLS which means to worship the HILL or MOUNTAIN gods because you cannot READ them words after you get discorded with Music. That is why Jude and the book of Enoch promises that God will come GET YOU with ten thousand of His saints to publish the MUSICAL DISCORDERS introduced by Miss Lucifer. "Only women and effemiante males fall into it" as we are told.
I have posted a reply to an HONEST question over on Ibelieve which proves that images and SINGING were introduced in the 4th century as BOOKS FOR THE ILLITERATE.
Does anyone know how Kirk Nofsinger is associated with this movement/org
May 5 2005, 4:04 PM
Does anyone know how Kirk Nofsinger (of the DFW area) is associated with this movement/org (ACU class of '77 -ex-Hilltop member at ACU)? He and I were good friends (dating back to York College days - class '73-'74) and I am concerned for him. See article http://brandonscottthomas.blogspot.com/2004_10_01_brandonscottthomas_archive.html
Content of article: Wednesday, October 27, 2004
Here's another picture from the weekend that my buddy, Kirk Nofsinger, took as the parade was coming to an end. Thanks, Kirk!!
Re: Does anyone know how Kirk Nofsinger is associated with this movement/org
May 5 2005, 7:06 PM
ASK HIM YOURSELF!
For goodness sake, don't take 2nd or 3rd hand information. If you know the guy, find him and ask him. And if he is involved, ask him why and what he thinks about it.
Tim is preaching an incredible series this summer in the Gospel of John. Sunday's message was great!
If anyone wants to stop by for a visit, check out www.ottercreek.org for directions. Service times are at 8:30am and 10:00am. We've got some great Sunday School classes going on during those times, as well.
BUILDING NEW BARNS: PLEASE MAKE EVERYONE AWARE THAT THERE IS NO LAW OF TITHING AND NO LAW OF GIVING.
Let me digress a bit: the real evil troublers within the church at this moment in time make their case that churches of Christ are based on TRADITIONALISM. They are especially sharp pointed in saying that NOT using special music or instruments is JUST YOUR TRADITIONS. This implies that the non-instrumental churches just INVENTED not using instruments to make trouble for others. Of course you have two situations: One is that they are terminally ignorant of a Bible and secular history associating music with Satan and evil religious institutions, or TWO: they are terminally evil and just don't care what the Bible says.
This, among many groups, seems to afflict the city churches or hicks who think that they are big time more than small and rural congregations. It can be an actual fact that at the intersection of Broad and Way you can have four community churches all trying to suck up the wandering sheep.
However, those who build a pagan-like mega temple and a pyramidal structure of "ministries" and hired ministers to make sure that YOU are kept busy all of your waking hours, DO NOT want to confess the TRADITIONS which makes their systems possible.
You can be a faithful church and finance the required functions and send out evangelists without a cult mind control system. However, you cannot operate those "theaters for holy entertainment" with thousands of "members" without some pretty evil violation of the Letter and Spirit of the New Testament.
One of those is a Located Preacher who has advanced to Senior Minister or Senior Pastor with the vocational deacons or "ministers" replaced by their buddies with a huge salary making the "organism" into an "organization."
Paul agreed that evangelists are worthy of their hire. However, all of the examples he used are the OPPOSITE of pompous professionals.
ALL of church history agrees that the "located priest" as performance preacher was a very early heresy.
Rubel Shelly defends the Located Missionary--meaning something like "located evangelist" meaning something like a "located Paul Revere."
The second "traditionalism" which they wink at is the Law of Giving. This is founded on a proof-text basis but it is DONE SO because they WANT THE MONEY. In my memory giving was a joy because you had "ownership" in the programs without which you are not a body of Christ.
Beginning: Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come. 1 Cor 16:2 Ending
Now, this is not a church of Christ thingy. They all do it in one way or another and of course if it has no Biblical authority it is traditionalism. If you make it a Law of Giving then it becomes legalism.
NOW concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye. 1 Cor 16:1
We know that Corinth had VOLUNTEERED so Paul is not establishing a law but establishing an order by which the gift would be collected BEFORE he got there.
Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come. 1 Cor 16:2
I won't go into it here but in 2 Corinthians 8 and 9 Paul denies that it is a COMMAND. He also makes it clear that the collection should be made before he arrived because the pressure of his presence would be like extortion. Now, what can we say of those "churches" right now hiring a HUCKSTER to try to bleed the congregation to death so that they can build a BIGGER BARN?
And when I come, whomsoever ye shall approve by your letters, them will I send to bring your liberality [charis or grace] unto Jerusalem. 1 Cor 16:3
There is word definitions, examples in the classics and almost universal agreement that LAY BY HIMSELF meant just that: it did not mean in a collection plate because that would expose the money which Paul wanted protected by a GROUP of people who would, in a sense, grasp the bag in all of their hands and watch it like a hawk until it got to the elders to dispense to those suffering a FAMINE. So, no one in Corinth or the elders in Judea held OWNERSHIP of the money.
So, there is NO LAW OF GIVING. We owe those who sent out spiritual things and are now destitute. In church history we have actual examples which never mandated PROPORTIONAL GIVING where, they say locally, that a welfare lady should tithe. Rather, the understanding that when they assembled they did a check and identified the POOR which means DESTITUTE like prowling the garbage cans.
Those who PROSPERED gave free will to those who were DESTITUTE. That means:
All for the DESTITUTE but not one widow's mite for the INSTITUTE as a LAW.
Those who lay a guilt trip on you and have a dominant, non-participating body have all of the IMPORTANT marks of a cult. You are WORSE than an infidel if you give to those which no claim and deprive your own livelihood. You don't have the RIGHT to be a sacrificial giver if you have a family to support.
The THIRD bit of traditionalism which has been HONED TO PERFECTION is the use of any kind of complex harmony (organic instruments) or mechanical instruments. They WILL NOT give that up because all of history proves that they NEED it to keep their tottering tower of Babel and babbling from falling over. They have all of the Bible and most of church history declaring that it is a DESTRUCTIVE tradition and "musical praise with with or without instruments" is one of the oldest, most ignorant and most legalistic superstitions. This was the belief that you could make SPIRITUAL CHANGES with music and you could AID the gods to help prevent them from failing.
The FOURTH traditionalism is what fueled the Temple and the cathedrals: they were seen as TOOLS OF EVANGELISM. We don't need a command to get in out of the rain and snow but the trend has been to put most of the money into a THEATER because they see worship as something PERFORMED for the people.
Nay, rather, to speak out more truly, the augurs, the dream interpreters, the SOOTHSAYERS, the prophets, and the PRIESTLINGS, ever vain, have devised these fables; for they,
fearing that their own arts be brought to nought, and
that they may extort but scanty contributions from the devotees,
now few and infrequent, whenever they have found you to be willing that their craft should come into disrepute, cry aloud, the Gods are neglected, and
in the temples there is now a very thin attendance. For ceremonies are exposed to derision, and the time-
honoured rites of institutions once sacred have sunk before the superstitions of new religions.
And men--a senseless race--being unable, from their inborn blindness, to see even that which is placed in open light,
dare to assert in their frenzy
what you in your sane mind do not blush to believe.
(Arnobius Against the Heathen, Ante-Nicene Fathers, VI, p. 418).
When they do the surveys and put you under FUND RAISING PRESSURE just tell them that JESUS PAID IT ALL and not one widow's mite TO YOU I OWE. They will truly take away your child's health care money to fund the Towers of Babbling.
I think that the message needs to go out to these poor souls that building BIGGER BARNS is not the plan. Furthermore, they need to be informed that there is NO LAW OF TITHING, NO LAW OF GIVING and the LAW OF PLEDGING that which you DO NOT HAVE is ANTI-BIBLICAL.
i can't argue with you because you think you know everything, but just reading this website makes me very sad for you. i hope that you will one day attempt to unite the body of christ instead of trying to pick it apart and always be right.
Except that Paul had founded the church in Corinth and it was Jesus making the judgment on the churches in Revelation, so your argument doesn't really hold water in this case.
Funny, I thought it was Jesus who established churches. So it was actually Paul? I thought Peter was the first Pope. And just how many years had transpired since Paul had attended any of their services there at Corinth? Is he like our elders, Once an elder ALWAYS an elder ///Once a member ALWAYS a member? Who's argument doesn't hold up???
Matthew 23 has Jesus identifying the sectarian HYPOCRITES (performers) by quoting Isaiah and Ezekiel. Ezekiel makes it clear that the HYPOCRITES were people who had a BEAUTIFUL VOICE (sexual) and could play well on instruments. The message is that it was always the MARK of people who tried to silence the voice of God .
The question in Scripture: "Shall we look TO THE HILLS" meaning NO we shall look to Jehovah and not the gods of the hills. Therefore God left us a MARK to identify false agents of the wrong "gods."
Euripides defined the Bacchae which was the perverted Abomination of Desolation in the Temple in Jerusalem. The Jews hoped that Bacchus or Dionysus (the new wineskin god) would be the messiah. The clergy PIPED hoping that Jesus and the disciples would SING and DANCE the perverted Dionysus shuffle. Therefore, if we want to understand where Jesus is POINTING in parables to fool the fools we have to look the to the meaning of an always perverted priesthood.
CHORUS
To the HILLS! TO THE HILLS! fleet hounds [perverted priests] of madness, where the daughters of Cadmus hold their revels,
goad them into wild fury [singing and clapping]
against the MAN disguised in woman's dress, a frenzied spy upon the Maenads.
First shall his mother MARK him as he peers from some smooth rock or riven tree, and thus to the Maenads she will call, "Who is this of Cadmus' sons comes hasting to the mount, to the mountain away, to spy on us, my Bacchanals? Whose child can he be? For he was never born of woman's blood; but from some lioness maybe or Libyan Gorgon is he sprung." Let justice appear and show herself, sword in hand, to plunge it through and through the throat of the godless, lawless, impious son of Echion, earth's monstrous child!
who with wicked heart and lawless rage, with mad intent and frantic purpose,
sets out to meddle with thy holy rites, and with thy mother's, Bacchic god, thinking with his weak arm to master might as masterless as thine.
This is the life that saves all pain, if a man confine his thoughts to human themes, as is his mortal nature, making no pretence where heaven is concerned.
I envy not deep subtleties; far other joys have I, in tracking out great truths writ clear from all eternity, that a man should live his life by day and night in purity and holiness, striving toward a noble goal, and should honour the gods by casting from him each ordinance that lies outside the pale of right.
Let justice show herself, advancing sword in hand to plunge it through and through the throat of Echion's son, that godless, lawless, and abandoned child of earth!
Appear, O Bacchus, to our eyes as a BULL or SERPENT with a hundred heads, or take the shape of a lion breathing flame! Oh! come, and with a mocking smile cast the deadly noose about the hunter of thy Bacchanals, e'en as he swoops upon the Maenads gathered yonder.
AND JESUS SAID OF THE MUSICAL MOCKERS
Be not far from me; for trouble is near; for there is none to help. Psalm 22:11
Many BULLS have compassed me: strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round. Psalm 22:12
Enter SECOND MESSENGER.
SECOND MESSENGER
O house, so prosperous once through Hellas long ago, home of the old Sidonian prince,
who sowed the SERPENT'S crop of earth-born men,
how do I mourn thee! slave though I be, yet still the sorrows of his master touch a good slave's heart.
AND JESUS SAID OF THE MUSICAL MOCKERS
Ye SERPENTS, ye generation of VIPERS, how can ye escape the damnation of hell? Matt 23:33
Jesus' Term: Ophis seed of Echidna
Euripides's Term: DRAKONTOS seed of OPHIS
CHORUS
How now? Hast thou fresh tidings of the Bacchantes
The BACCHANTES are Bakchê , hê,
A. Bacchante, A.Eu.25, S.Ant.1122 (lyr.), Ar.Nu.605, Pl. Ion534a, etc.: generally, Bakchê Haidou frantic handmaid of Hades, E.Hec.1077; b. nekuôn Id.Ph.1489 (lyr.).
mainas , ados, hê, ( [mainomai] )
A. RAVING, frantic, lussa v. l. in S.Fr.941.4; bakchê E.Ba.915 .
2. as Subst., MAD WOMEN, [at Corinth] esp. Bacchante, Maenad, mainadi isê Il.22.460 , cf. h.Cer.386, A.Fr.382, S.OT212 (lyr.), etc.; of the Furies, A.Eu.500 (lyr.); of Cassandra, E.Tr. 173 (lyr.).
3. = pornê, Poll.7.203 cod. A, Hdn.Epim.83.
porn-ê, hê, A. harlot, prostitute, Archil.142, Ar.Ach.527, etc. (Prob.from pernêmi, because Greek prostitutes were commonly bought slaves.)
The LOOK TO THE HILLS and the BACCHUS or MAD WOMEN (in Corinth) scheme points directly to the MOCKING of Jesus by the SEED OF THE SERPENT which Jesus treated as literally true.
IT IS A FACT THAT GOD ALWAYS GIVES US A WAY OF ESCAPE BY SPEAKING IN PARABLES TO KEEP THE TRUTH FROM THE PROFESSIONAL FALSE PERFORMERS (HYPOCRITES). HE DOES THIS BY POINTING DIRECTLY TO PAGAN, SATANIC VIEWS OF THE WORLD.
Separate churches raise same songs of thanksgiving in Ryman service
By AILENE TORRES
Staff Writer
A joyful noise rose through the Ryman Auditorium last night, as two distinctively different choirs melded into one.
In a pre-Thanksgiving service designed to bring congregations from different denominations, cultures and backgrounds together, a Baptist minister shared the microphone with a Nazarene minister, and a Church of Christ choir and a Baptist choir sang together.
And worshippers embraced the mixed service and congregation.
"A Christian is a Christian, it doesn't matter if you are black or white," said Pleasant Green Missionary Baptist Church member Dominique Haywood, 37. "Some people are going to be excluded from heaven. It won't matter if you are black or white."
The event, "Thankful We Stand," was a collaboration between TheOperation Andrew Group, a nondenominational outreach association that partners with churches from varying denominations, and the YMCA of Middle Tennessee. Both organizations want to erode racial barriers and foster greater diversity among congregations, organizers said.
"We tend to live in our comfort areas — black, white, Hispanic," said OAG president Charles E. McGowan. "We can walk away from this feeling how big God's church is and give expression to our unity."
The diversity was apparent throughout the service as young and old, black, white, Hispanic and Asian and even the hearing-impaired all praised God together.
As the two choirs from Otter Creek Church of Christ on Granny White Pike and Temple Baptist Church of King's Lane sang together, worshippers sang along or raised their hands to the heavens.
Jeanie Weems, 29, of Bellevue and a member of Otter Creek Church of Christ, said the interdenominational experience was the way things should be.
"It will help us grow in the future. It is a blessing to be around people who do things differently from the way we have done them," she said.
OAG was founded five years agoand has since teamed up with the YMCA of Middle Tennessee to promote interdenominational diversity and National Prayer Day.
Organizers believe the event's 800-plus attendance showed an interest in the community for diverse worship services. They said they plan to organize a similar service next year.
Phil Newman, vice president of communications for the YMCA of Middle Tennessee said the religious program married well with what the Christian organization tries to exemplify.
The Rev. Frank Lewis, of First Baptist Church of Nashville downtown, said the fellowship of worship should automatically bring believers together.
"God is using the churches to spread his love. Don't focus on what divides us," Lewis said. "Focus on the things that unite us."
Otter Creek has a choir? Fellowships other denominations? Why do they get to say they are a Church of Christ?
This is what a few rogue church leaders think the future should look like for our fellowship. Did you happen to see the other article (front page of Tennessean, last week) where the Baptist are withdrawing their conference's support from their former univerity, Belmont.) You can't help but wonder if there will be a similiar report about Lipscomb in the coming years as this 'new' Church of Christ emerges?
This is what tolerance at all cost looks like, brother.
I read today that Otter Creek is fellowshipping other churches! Do they not know that this is like having sex with temple prostitutes? They are engaging in sexual acts with Molech and deserve to die a painful death! Death to all who go to otter Creek! Isn't that right Ken, they are whores of the church, blah, blah, blah! Whores and sluts. Church of Christ or hell!
Hey dude,
Talked with Jesus and he is still forgiving people! You are in luck. Hope to see you in heaven with the baptist, presby's, methodist, and muslims!
I don't think the issue is as much the fellowshipping of denominations as much as it is trying to become like them. Was anyone there that evening at the Ryman to tell us how many songs were sung vocal-only?
This gathering featuring a Church-of-Christ Choir (can you spell O X Y M O R O N) sounds a lot like Israel near the end of Samuel's life when the people said "We want a king like the nations around us." Just make a couple of very minor changes and you get "We want to sing like the denominations around us." Coincidental or prophetic?!
Jack if you think a C of C Choir is an unusual idea you need to visit the Otter Creek building on any Thursday night whenever Lipscomb U. is in session from about 8:30 to 10:00 pm. You'll get to hear a real live Church of Christ instrumental praise band, complete with drums, electric piano and guitars comprised mostly of musicians from Lipscomb. Do you know any other of our congregations offering its teens such a novel worship experience? Maybe there's a Methodist acappella equivalent service being offered out there somewhere.
Like I say, the Choir is only the tip of the iceberg.
I agree with Shame: as long as they spit out the STOLEN PROPERTY then they should be able to PERFORM any place they choose. I can remember singing with Black groups and I did a fair tenor: however, we didn't DO that and lie, cheat and steal and claim that it was WORSHIP so powerful a connection wit God (the Pharisee Virus) that YOU should PAY me as a PROCURED performer.
2 Cor 2:17 For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ.
By definition a HIRELING is one who is HIRED to do more than go and "teach that which has been taught." One who CORRUPS the word REPUDIATES it and just makes up his own songs and sermons. Jesus called them LIARS and "sons of the Devil."
A CORRUPTER is a TRAFFICER which is the Lucifer (Zoe) principle of the "singing and harp playing prostitute."
Kapeleuo (g2585) kap-ale-yoo'-o; from kapelos , (a huckster); to retail, i.e. (by impl.) to adulterate (fig.): - corrupt
kapêl-euô
A. to be a retail-dealer, drive a petty trade... kapêleu' drive a trade, chaffer with your vegetable food Hdt.1.155
II. c. acc., sell by retail, ton herpin Hippon.51 .
2. metaph., k. ta prêgmata, of Darius, Hdt.3.89; k. ta mathêmata sell learning by retail, hawk it about, Pl. Prt.313d; k. ton logon tou theou 2 Ep.Cor.2.17 ; so eoiken ou kapêleusein machên will not peddle in war, i. e. fight half-heartedly, A.Th. 545; k. têi Chariti tên amoibên Epicur. traffic in grants of citizenship, [CHURCH MEMBERSHIPS] of prostitutes, playing tricks with life, [p. 876] corrupting it, AP9.180 (Pall.).
The word ADULTERY and KLEPTO is associated with this verse. The concept of arousal singing to produce the outlawed PLEASURING is also connected with KLEPTOMANIA by the "heretics" who LIFT YOU UP to carry you away for THEIR OWN PLEASURES.
Hdt.1.155 Heredotus: Cyrus told how to take the FIGHT out of the enemy: [4] But pardon the Lydians, and give them this command so that they not revolt or pose a danger to you: send and forbid them to possess weapons of war,
and order them to wear tunics under their
cloaksand knee-boots on their feet,
and to teach their sons lyre-playing [kitharizein]
and song [psallein] and dance
and shop-keeping [huckstering].
And quickly, O king,
you shall see them become women instead of men,
so that you need not fear them, that they might revolt."
The Zoeites (Luciferians) felt the PRESSURE to bring in an expert to debunk the ABSOLUTE connection between the singers, flute players, MIMICS and homosexuals plying their TRADE in stolen church houses. By IMITATING they can perform the ACTS and send the vocal signals and, as parasites, get the fools to pay their FEES.
Next, I will examine the PLATONIC FALLACY which defines PHARISEES.
Ken,
I must finally challenge you to a duel. Of swords. Touche'.
ZOE, who adorns her ministry at Otter Creek, is none other than ADOLF HITLER redivivus. And Verde Schlowsky, our most reknown coptic APOCALYPTIC scholar, has proven that Hitler is the 10th HORN. Her name is Babylon. Roar.
Let's call a spade a diamond.
The chimera is a mythical beast. IT will soon devour you.
Our problem is not musical instruments or even a capella (Italian -- in the manner of a choir) which you and your liberals denounce. Any sound made by human, whether through his deceitful voice or via a lewd instrument or other agency hereby, is heretofore evil and shall be banished forever. Amen. The SAINTS (not from New Orleans) will denounce your pirate-like attacks on these mindless souls. The proof is in the pudding!!
That demon Rubel SHELLEY has attempted to penetrate the bowels of Otter Creek and spread his influence. Yet MICHAEL and Satan ("Beelzebub" or "Lucifer," although even idiots know ISAIAH 14 refers to a Babylonian prince and not an evil angel) have already done battle there. But who won? That is the eternal question. And not even Nostradamus knows the answer to that one. But SHELLEY has been refuted and a greater force has kept him from spreading ZOE like peanut butter.
Thou shalt not use me as a fan.
Thou shal not bend my backs together.
Thou shalt not scribble on me.
These words are inscribed on the hearts of men. You won't find these treasured words in the NIV. No, they belong in the KJV, the most sacred of all books, even more sacred than the Septuagint or the Torah itself.
I no longer listen to the whispers of ZOE that continually call me as I lay down to sleep. For I, like you, have abandoned all churches. None are perfect as I AM, so I challenge them all to measure up to my majesty.
I think Kajagoogoo said it best:
"Too shy shy
Hush hush, eye to eye."
I AM, you are brilliant!
You have convinced me to shut down this website.
I have now been proven wrong and confess that INSTRUMENTAL WORSHIP is acceptable in God's sight!
Praise God.
Didn't you know that turning YOURSELF into an angel of light is a SATANIC MARK? So, quit posting under my name or I will make a dolly and stick pins in your head---if it is large enough?
Your IP marks you as the Nebraska Man. They invented a WHOLE FAMILY for Nebraska Man. It turned out that THEY wuz a single SWINE'S TOOTH.
It happens that the ZOE and lucifer words and concepts FILL the ancient literature. In Hebrew Lucifer is HEYLEL meaning brightness or morning star. It is derived from David's PRAISE word HALAL meaning to "make yourself vile" as in a musical dance to try to threaten or SEDUCE the gods who can't punish a CRAZY S/he. PRAISE is quite identical to cHALAL which means to "steal you food, play the flute, pollute or prostitute." It is used of Lucifer being CAST AS PROFANE out of heaven and a similar word where Jesus CAST OUT the minstrels (always prostitutes or perverts) like one EJECTS DUNG.
phaos meaning the life of men, zôei, who is lampros, 4. of sound or voice, clear, distinct, III. of outward appearance, splendid, brilliant, numphion êôs
II. pr. n., Êôs the goddess of dawn, Merope 'eloquent' or 'bee eater,' Helia 'sun,' Phoebe 'bright,' Aetheria 'heavenly one,' Dioxippe 'divine mare,' Lampetia 'beaming one,' Koronis 'crow or raven,' Aegile 'bright,' Lamethusa 'light being,' Phatusa 'bright being,' and Elektryone 'beaming one.'
(Hebrew helel; Septuagint heosphoros, Vulgate lucifer)
The name Lucifer originally denotes the planet Venus, emphasizing its brilliance. The Vulgate employs the word also for "the light of the morning" (Job 50:17), "the signs of the zodiac" (Job 38:32), and "the aurora" (Psalm 109:3). Metaphorically, the word is applied to the King of Babylon (Isaiah 14:12) as preeminent among the princes of his time; to the high priest Simon son of Onias (Ecclesiasticus 50:6), for his surpassing virtue, to the glory of heaven (Apocalypse 2:28), by reason of its excellency; finally to Jesus Christ himself (II Petr. 1:19; Apocalypse 22:16; the "Exultet" of Holy Saturday) the true light of our spiritual life. The Syriac version and the version of Aquila derive the Hebrew noun helel from the verb yalal, "to lament"
The actual name, "Lucifer," goes back to the Greeks, before the Romans. Socrates and Plato talk about this "god of light"; surprisingly, not in the context of Eos (god of Dawn), but -- as a morning star -- juxtaposed with the sun (Helios) and Hermes. This information can be found in Plato's Timaeus (38e) and in Edith Hamilton's Mythology."
Well, just remember that Jesus spoke in parables to HIDE THE TRUTH from the singy-clappy types so don't be surprised that YOU cannot find that LUCIFER is ZOE is EVE as the "mother of the gods" and pagan MEDIATRIX.
There are dozens of forms of the word ZOE meaning life. The Greek version calls Eve ZOE and there a flow of literature which associates her with Gnosticism. She is associated with Lucifer or Venus or the sun or Jupiter. Here LIFE is always associated with the claim that erotic love brought one into the presence of the gods. How could ANYONE be fooled?
Rev 18:2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
Rev 18:3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.
Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
Rev 18:5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.
Rev 18:22 And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee;
What you have to grasp is that whatever their NAME all MUSICAL PROMOTERS have the same meaning:
zôê A. living, i.e. one's substance, property, to get one's living by Hdt.8.105
Paul warned yoou about anyone who uses God for OCCUPATION: a hireling has been hired.
2 Cor 2:17 For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ.
Kapeleuo (g2585) kap-ale-yoo'-o; from kapelos , (a huckster); to retail, i.e. (by impl.) to adulterate (fig.): - corrupt
kapêl-euô, A. to be a retail-dealer, drive a petty trade ... kapêleu' drive a trade, chaffer with your vegetable food Hdt.1.155
2. sell learning by retail, hawk it about, Chariti tên amoibên Epicur.Sent.Vat.39 ; k. tên politeian traffic in grants of citizenship, of prostitutes, playing tricks with life
Cyrus was told: Grant, then, forgiveness to the Lydians, and to make sure of their never rebelling against thee, or alarming thee more, send and forbid them to keep any weapons of war, command them to wear tunics under their cloaks, and to put buskins upon their legs,
and make them bring up their sons to cithern-playing (Kitharizein), singing (psallein), and shop-keeping (Hucksterism).
So wilt thou soon see them become women instead of men, and there will be no more fear of their revolting from thee."
zeidôros, on, zea-giving, derived it from zaô = life-giving, Aphroditê; Êelios. zeizin
Aphroditê sexual love, pleasure, Od.22.444; hup' Apollôni psauein Aphroditas Pi.O.6.35 III. ho tas Aphroditas [astêr] the planet Venus, Ti.Locr.97a, cf. Pl.Epin.987b, Arist.Metaph.1073b31, etc. venustas
lucifer A. The morning-star, the planet Venus: stella Lucifer, stella Veneris, quae Phôsphoros Graece, Latine dicitur Lucife
Stella speaks of the WANDERING STARS or planets. This is all connected to Apollo or Abaddon or Apollyon in the book of Revelation who is the "having fallen star" who returns to unleashes the MUSES as the Devil's Musical Worship Team called LOCUSTS.
Apollo [Satan] TOUCHES ZOE Apollôni psauein Aphroditas
psauô 4. touch, affect, ou gar akras kardias epsause mou E.Hec.242
Euripides, Hecuba
Hecuba
Alas! a dreadful trial is near, it seems, [230] full of mourning, rich in tears. Yes, I too escaped death where death had been my due, and Zeus did not destroy me but is still preserving my life, that I may witness in my misery fresh sorrows surpassing all before. But if the bond may ask the free [235] of things that do not grieve them or wrench their heart-strings, you ought to speak in answer to my questions and I ought to hear what you have to say.
Odysseus
Granted; put your questions; I do not grudge you that delay.
Hecuba
Do you know when you came to spy on Ilium, [240] disguised in rags and tatters, while down your cheek ran drops of blood?
Odysseus
I do; for it was no slight impression it made upon my heart.
This is also the Bacchus or NEW WINESKIN worship revival of fame.
Ovidius Naso, Metamorphoses
His usual throng of Satyrs and of Bacchanals surrounded him; but not Silenus, who was then detained from him. And after they bound him in garlands, they led him to their king Midas, to whom with the Cecropian Eumolpus, Thracian Orpheus had shown all the Bacchic rites. When Midas recognized his old time friend Silenus, who had been so often his companion in the rites of Bacchus, he kept joyful festival, with his old comrade, twice five days and nights.
Upon the eleventh day, when Lucifer had dimmed the lofty multitude of stars, King Midas and Silenus went from there joyful together to the Lydian lands.
ZOE and LUCIFER are also related to the sun God, Apollo or Apollyon:
hêlios , ho, Ep. êelios II. as pr. n., phaos êelioio to see the light of life, live,
Helios, the sun-god, identified with Apollo, 2. Hêliou astêr, of the planet Saturn,
ZOE is EVE whom Paul warned about. She was WHOLLY SEDUCED in the garden. She was adopted from earliest times as the MATRIARCHAL "mother of the gods" and therefore supreme. As ZOE she claims to be superior to LOGOS. That is why they have REPLACED Jesus Christ as the Patriarchal MEDIATOR. When they "perform" as MUSES or LOCUSTS they are standing in the symbolic Holy Place (church) claiming to BE God by claiming to lead you into His presence. We fools know that they cannot LEAD us any closer to God than they are according to Alexander Campbell.
As ZOE she is the BEAST and "female instructing principle."
No PERFORMING ROLES in the School of the Bible. Therefore, NO FUNDING.
February 14 2006, 11:48 AM
Jesus was also a DEACON in that He SLAVED or SERVED. He made it clear to all readers that not even Apostles had any COMMAND AUTHORITY. Paul defined a servant thusly which outlaws all of the glory seekers of authority.
Because a TRUE church of Christ is an EKKLESIA or synagogue or SCHOOL OF THE BIBLE. The Qahal or synagogue called "the church in the wilderness" met ONLY for a holy convocation which meant to READ or REHEARSE the Word. Any of the elders trained in the oral tradition as APT to teach could do that from MEMORY. You could do that also IF your elders did not MORTALLY SIN by violating the direct command to TEACH THAT WHICH HAS BEEN TAUGHT. Wouldn't that be better than: "Itzy bitzy ba ke nee / run up the aisles an shout!"
2 Cor 6:1 WE then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.
2 Cor 6:2 (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)
Giving no OFFENSE in any thing, that the ministry be not blamed: 2 Cor 6:3
But in all things approving ourselves as the ministers of God, in much patience, in afflictions, in necessities, in distresses, 2 Cor 6:4
Now, see if you can get a PhDuh in Worship Design or Missional Church or Musicating in the 'holy places' out of being a deacon.
Diakonos (g1249) dee-ak'-on-os; prob. from an obs. diako , (to run on errands; comp. 1377; an attendant, i.e. (gen.) a waiter (at table or in other menial duties); spec. a Chr. teacher and pastor (techn. a deacon or deaconess): - deacon, minister, servant
This explains how the word SLAVE or SERVANT was used.
There were no glory jobs in the church: the elders are the ONLY Pastor-teachers of the flock and they receive an "honorarium" but NOT a wage. Even if the church had a WAGED role as opposed to SERVANT roles, Paul and ALL of church history DEPRIVES you of FUNDING. Willingness to deliberately SOW DISCORD based on 100% lying about the "music" issue just proves that it is CORRUPTERS or ADULTERERS of the Word who are CHASING DOLLARS just like Lucifer who is Zoe.
2 Cor 2:17 For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ.
kapêl-euô , A. to be a retail-dealer, drive a petty trade... kapêleu' drive a trade sell learning by retail, hawk it about, 2 Ep.Cor.2.17, traffic in grants of citizenship, of prostitutes, playing tricks with life,
Iamblichus notes: 5. Because the begging priest with open mouth attempts in many ways to raise our expectations.
13. The agurtes or begging priest generally belonged to the worship of Rhea [Eve, Zoe] or Cybele, the Mother. He is frequently depicted in a most unfavorable light. Apuleius speaks of a company of these emasculate priests in the eighth book of the Metamorphoses. They are also described in the Republic of Plato:
"Agurtæ and Mantics frequent the houses of the rich and persuade them that they possess a power granted by the gods to expiate,
by sacrifices and chants any unjust act that has been committed and that they induce the gods by blandishments and magic rites to help them.
They collected money in this way, and they also followed the selling of nostrums and telling of fortunes."
The Deacons were MALES because there is NO Greek word for a DEACONESS. If you want to use your TALENT then you can GO and do that 24/7. However if you SPEAK you must SPEAK as the oracles of God. That included:
A MODE which was a slow, drawl mode. In the ekklesia (school of the Bible) the SPEAK or SAY meant "in a whisper or in conversational language. Remember, that NOT EVEN God speaks in the whirlwinds and earthquakes (teams) but "in the silence of a silent breeze." Remember, Elijah in conflict with the singing, playing and dancing Jezebel TEAMS?
The RESOURCE for "school of the Bible" is directly commanded by Paul to be THAT WHICH IS WRITTEN or SCRIPTURE which consists of the Biblical Text much of which is written in a metrical form to make TEACHING and MEMORIZING easier.
Paul OUTLAWED women from the SPEAKING roles because they AUTOMATICALLY exercise AUTHENTIA which is EROTIC and MURDEROUS--effeminate praise songs as the world's oldest, most legalistic, superstitious ritual known to be PERFORMED by people "emotionally or sexually abnormal." No NORMAL male is going to get up and flang his pinkies in public.
This is your assignment if you want to INVENT the word DEACONESS which in history applied to widows in need OVER 60 (as Paul insists) or PERPETUAL VIRGINS also called NUNS.
In stripes, in imprisonments, in tumults, in labours, in watchings, in fastings; 2 Cor 6:5
By pureness, by KNOWLEDGE, by longsuffering, by kindness, by the Holy Ghost, by love unfeigned, 2 Cor 6:6
By the WORD OF TRUTH, by the power of God, by the armour of righteousness on the right hand and on the left, 2 Cor 6:7
By honour and dishonour, by evil report and good report: as DECEIVERS, and yet true; 2 Cor 6:8
As unknown, and yet well known; as dying, and, behold, we live; as chastened, and not killed; 2 Cor 6:9
2 Cor 6:10 As SORROWFUL, yet alway rejoicing; as poor, yet making many rich; as having nothing, and yet possessing all things.
Did you know that when Jesus "sings" in the congregation, He GRIEVES OUT A HYMN? Why not become a Christian and "bow like a dog licking its master's boots" and WORSHIP?
The KJV makes the church AT Cenchrea but the others make it seem that she was a "servant" and she served IN CENCHREA. The people needing service would be down at the waterfont and not amidst the pagan temples.
Rom 16:1NKJV I commend to you Phoebe our sister, who is a servant of the church in Cenchrea,
We know that she was not a DEACONESS because the Greek had no such word.
There is no record of a church being LOCATED at Cenchrea although it would be the logical place for Paul to meet her and receive her services.
Matthew Henry: Cenchrea was a small sea-port town adjoining to Corinth, about twelve furlongs distant. Some think there was a church there, distinct from that at Corinth, though, being so near, it is very probable that the church of Corinth is called the church of Cenchrea, because their place of meeting might be there, on account of the great opposition to them in the city (Acts 18:12), as at Philippi they met out of the city by the water-side, Acts 16:13. So the reformed church of Paris might be called the church at Charenton, where they formerly met, out of the city
The only thing Paul did in Cenchrea was to get a hair cut which would be the logical place as an entry or exit seaport:
And Paul after this tarried there yet a good while, and then took his leave of the brethren, and sailed thence into Syria, and with him Priscilla and Aquila; having shorn his head in Cenchrea: for he had a vow. Acts 18:18
Phoebe is on the way to Rome on BUSINESS or "pragma" as Lydia was a traveling saleslady:
Rom 16:2 That ye receive her in the Lord, as becometh saints, and that ye assist her in whatsoever business she hath need of YOU: for she hath been a succourer of many, and of myself also.
Paul was not explicit because he does not seem to know the nature of her BUSINESS. She served AT Cenchrea but there is no clue that they had sent her on HER business. If she is on a mission from the church Paul doesn't seem to know it. The people in Rome were to SERVE her and Phoebe is not serving the church. I like to think that probably having money she went on a shopping trip to Rome.
Prostatis (g4368) pros-tat'-is; feminine of a der. of 4291; a patroness, i.e. assistant: - succourer.
The common use of similar words shows that of Phoebe or the elders it WAS applied to military commanders who STOOD IN FRONT of the army. There are no STAND BEFORE the "paying audience" roles. Remember that Jesus STOOD up and read the Scriptures--is that an APPROVED example? The pulpit was for holding up the BIBLE and not the PREACHER. He then--as an approved example--had the uncommon decency to SIT DOWN and "dialog" which is the meaning of "preaching."
ALL baptized believers are CITIZENS of the kingdom and can come BOLDLY BEFORE the Throne of Grace to which a singer or player in the carnal temple as type would be INSTANTLY EXECUTED even if he went in to clean out the garbage. How arrogant to claim the PHARISEE arrogance of spiritual superiority to change the WORDS of God and then STEAL the money of widows as if she is an ALIEN and need a human MEDIATOR! Wow! Awsome! Or is the word really AWFUL?
Because she was not Paul's RULER or a Military commander IN THE FRONT LINES the definition which fits is:
prostat-ês
2. at Athens, etc., patron who took charge of the interests of metoikoi, etc.: hence epi prostatou oikein live under protection of a patron, Lys.31.9, 14, Lycurg.145; prostatên epigraphein tina choose as one's patron...also graphesthai prostatou to be entered by one's patron's name, be attached .
Lysias, Speeches 31:[9] For he packed up all his belongings and left the city to live beyond the border, at Oropus,
where he paid the aliens' tax
and resided under the protection of a patron, since he preferred the life of an ALIEN among those people to citizenship with us. raeus, nor is there any instance of his having placed himself at your disposal.
metoikos A. settler from abroad, alien resident in a foreign city, denizen.. ou thanousin whose home is neither with the LIVING nor the DEAD, S.Ant.852 (lyr.): metaph., of birds, as sojourners in the heavens, A.A.57 (anal.).
My soul is crushed: the "supernatural" arrogance of people who RULE, PATRONIZE and EXTORT taxes as if a Christian COULD NOT be a CITIZEN. I cannot EXPRESS to you how clearly this fulfils end-time prophecy of Apollo (Apollyon) unleashing his TEAM of LOCUSTS or "musical performers" to SEPARATE those marked by music from those marked by the Word. I literally shudder for fear of what is coming on such blatant OUTED demonstration what is CLEARLY prophesied for now.
It may be that Paul was using the word as a metaphor but she served Paul in the same capacity of making his living and transit through Greek territory legal and well "patronized." We now call such people "sponsors" of aliens living in this country. His being a citizen did not make living easier.
Prostates was the title of a citizen in Athens, who had the responsibility of seeing to the welfare of resident aliens who were without civic rights. Among the Jews it signified a wealthy patron of the community." (Vine, p. 112). .
This word is not used of any elder, deacon or evangelist in the New Testament. It is the name of a Greek official or function. We need to read a bit of history to understand that like Phoebe and Lydia the ancient world was filled with great business women.
Church history knows of no deaconess exercising ecclesiastical functions. At time the widows in need and deed over age 60 were servants or deaconesses but they were called NUNS. Virgins could sign up as deaconess but they too were nuns. If they ever got married they were excommunicated. Therefore, the history demands a virgin or a widow. While this was going on, a man wishing to become a presbyter must be a virgin and if married was forced to divorce his wife and she went to be a "nun" serving another bishop in another place. I don't think we want that.
In the early Restoraton Movement the "sewing circle" was called deaconesses as they indeed were servants. There ARE no command ruling or STAND UP roles. The word for rule defines a woman standing up in public in a very bad way which WORD I am NOT allowed to write even thought it is included in the definition.
"Otter Creek is a CofC in the Nashville area that has just recently moved to a new location in Brentwood, TN (just south of Nashville). It is known as being one of the most "progressive" CofC congregations in the area. This past Sunday morning, I attended services at their new place. I had visited the congregation on a couple of occasions at their old location. But, I decided to visit since they have been in their new building for about a month now.
"The sign out front says "Otter Creek Church." Underneath that in smaller print, it reads, "a church of Christ." The facility where they now meet was previously owned by an independent non-denominational church of some kind (I think). They just recently (from what I understand) swapped buildings with the other church. I don't know the details of that transaction.
"I attended both Sunday school and the worship service. What struck me was how friendly several people were. As soon as I walked into the building, a man introduced himself and invited me to the Bible class he was going to. The text being studied that morning was from Philippians 3. The teacher seemed very knowledgeable and capable.
"After class, I went to the auditorium and sat down for the worship service. Again, people were very friendly. The people on my row introduced themselves to me, etc. Just in the few conversations I had with people, we were able to make connections... realized we knew people in common who attend where I normally attend, etc.
"The praise team went up to be seated on the stage as it approached time to begin. The stage was pretty large. Leaning across the steps in the front and center was a large rough wooden cross. There was something resembling a crown of thorns draped over the top of the cross. That was the center piece of the auditorium.
"With just a couple of minutes until time to begin, a video started playing on the screens (two big screens located above each side of the stage). It was (the only way I know how describe it) a rap song about Jesus. On the screen were projected images (paintings) of Jesus with certain phrases flashing up that describe Him (Biblical phrases, for the most part). The phrases went along with what was being said in the song. There was the typical rap beat in the song, so it was instrumental (for what that's worth). As the song started playing, the guy I had just met turned to me and said, "You never know what to expect here" (or something to that effect). With a beginning like that, I had to ask myself what I was getting into. Look around But, that was about as extreme as it got.
"After the video/rap song concluded, someone walked out on the stage and extended the welcome. The praise team was sitting in chairs toward the back of the stage. There was a microphone on the right side of the stage. Whenever someone went up to the microphone, a spotlight shone on the person. The auditorium was equipped with an impressive audio-video system and lighting.
"Then, the phrase team stood up and began singing, facing the audience. Each singer had a microphone. I didn't count how many people (maybe about 8 or so). But, there were both men and women. It was all a cappella. I knew most if not all of the songs. I knew some of the songs from Zoe Group CDs I have (the Zoe Group is from Otter Creek). But, they sang some traditional hymns as well. The singing sounded very good.
"After several songs, someone came up to give the comments before the Lord's Supper. I must say that his comments and message were very good. After Communion and maybe another song or two, Tim Woodroof came up to deliver the sermon. The sermon was on the Cross and the meaning of the Cross, and I was very impressed with the message. He made a point about how the Gospel is misunderstood in modern times... how it is treated like a self-help program and aluded to the health & wealth Gospel that is taught by many. He spoke about the meaning of the Sacrifice. On the screens were projected various pictures throughout the whole sermon. When he spoke of the Sacrifice, a picture of a lamb was shown. At the end, he explained the meaning of baptism in the context of the Cross. He said that in baptism, the sinner is brought "into the Cross". At that point, he extended the invitation, and the singers stood up to sing once again.
"After that, there were a few more songs, the collection, and some announcements. Also, this was apparently their "birthday Sunday." All of the kids who had recent and/or upcoming birthdays were invited up to the stage with some of their parents. "Happy Birthday" was sung to the kids. In their announcements, they discussed their planned events on Easter weekend. On Sunday night, April 16, there will apparently be a worship service that will include instrumental music.
"Just a few remarks about it... I believe this type of experience will become more and more common among Churches of Christ in coming years. After visiting a community church the week before, I came to a conclusion about Otter Creek and other like-minded CofCs: what we are seeing here is the emergence of an interesting nexus between community-church/contempory style and many traditional CofC teachings (even orthodox Christianity). From what I can tell, the doctrine of salvation (including the teaching on baptism, etc.) remains very much intact with traditional CofCs (although perhaps the approach is somewhat different). There seems to be an enhanced emphasis on the Lord's Supper. Also, it will be interesting to see what happens on the music question. It seems that we have churches that are going from "non-instrumental" to "predominantly non-instrumental". It could be that the formerly non-instrumental Churches of Christ are becoming more like their counterparts among independent Christian Churches. But, I have not visited any ICC/CoCs to really know."
Re: No PERFORMING ROLES in the School of the Bible. Therefore, NO FUNDING.
April 9 2006, 8:17 PM
Do you go to Otter Creek? If no, are you trying to stir up something? Noticed things are getting very boring around this website. Are you just bored brother?
Those such as the Tulsa workshop etal are pushing THE SPECTACLE OF WORSHIP. It helps to remember that Jesus died to build his EKKLESIA which had the same function as the CHURCH IN THE WILDERNESS. That assembly was a School of the word and MUSIC was outlawed. Not even a small Jewish schoolboy would fail to understand that you don't USE THEATRICAL PERFORMERS when Jesus comes to be our TEACHER when we "teach that which has been taught."
The word CHURCH derives from KIRKE or CIRCE the holy whore John defined in Revelation 18 when he connectes prostitution, music and performance with SORCERY and asking Jesus to BLOW OUT THE CANDLES. Church also means CIRCUS. The other "kurios" derived words speak of a CATHOLIC LIKE organization controlling all of your attention and money.
If people tithed it would be an outrageous TICKET PRICE for watching silly boys doing what in all the literature says that when MALES did it they were drunk or perverts. If they don't tithe it is still a pretty expensive way to waste Sunday morning when they could stay home and listen to some good Baptists preacher who still preaches the Word pretty straight.
I can assure you that they have SIFTED the olden Bible and don't care WHAT it says. For those who still care I can see almost nothing remotely similar to being a SCHOOL OF THE BIBLE where you don't PROCURE performance rhetoricians or musicians. Shame, Shame, Shame: it is all just TRAFFICING which is the Lucifer (Zoe) principle. Closer to the demonism Paul warned about in 1 Cor 10 and Romans 10 which produces or is the EFFECT of what he defined in Romans 1.
ken, when I read what you type, in my mind I hear...BLIBBITY, BLA,BLABITY BLAH, BLIBBER, BLABBLE BLIBBLE. CAN YOU TRANSLATE THAT? YOU ARE SO GOOD AT TRANSLATING EVERYTHING ELSE. BTW, WILL YOU BE HAVING AN EASTER SERVICE AT YOUR HOUSE OF WORSHIP? EASTER EGG HUNT?
No more easter for me since I found out that rabbits DO NOT lay those colored egg!
God warned about that worship of ISHTAR and the "Sun Rise service " in Jerusalem in Ezekiel 8. So, I have also quit wrapping boars testicles in GOLD FOIL to increase the fertility. Maybe if we got all of the bores out of the pulpit we could do it this year--if they have any testosterone producers at all. Sound good?
Father, please bring grace and mercy to this man's soul.
Open his eyes. Break him down. Focus him on you and not these petty petty arguments. Help him to look into his own relationship with you and to strengthen it. Focus his heart on you. Father help these divisions in your body to come together. Help us to come together as the body of Christ. Help us to love each other with your love. Be with us Father. I love you!!! In Christ, Amen.
I was wondering if you were praying for yourself in the third person. If not, and if you were praying for someone like me, I would be concerned that some anonymous or phony person is praying for me. I certainly would like to know the NAME of the person praying for me. Then, I would like to thank you, [fill in your name].
So, who or what do you think causes division in the body of Christ?
One more question—well, it’s really a scripture passage in relation to what “I love you!!!” really means. Could it be related to—“And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?” (Luke 6:46)
Re: No PERFORMING ROLES in the School of the Bible. Therefore, NO FUNDING.
April 23 2006, 2:49 PM
A guy wrote asking if this report came from a member there. The guy clearly stated he was visiting and actually is writing a fair and honest report. Otter creek is a wonderful congregation and is taking a hit around Nashville with exaggerated rumors that are not true. What he presented is what they do and his conclusion that a lot of churches of christ may be moving in this direction is fair and probably true.
Otter Creek deserves a lot of credit for maturing reguarding that building deal which I'll comment on since the writer didn't know. Otter creek had a purchase of expensive property in play at Concord Road and Franklin Road since they were landlocked in their location. It would have been a fabulous facility but with high costs. They are growing fast. The building they are in was Brentwood Baptist and we should note THEY built a facility 3 times the size of the one they left. That building was sold to a black congregation whose most visible member is John Winfrey, Oprah's father. They got in a bit over their head and were on a path to loose the building. They approached Otter Creek and a swap was made. Number wise it's very impressive to go down Franklin Road in Nashville. You start with Woodmont Hills running 2500, and 2 miles later hit Brentwood Hills running 1800, and 4 miles later hit Otter Creek running 1600 people attending. And if one wants to turn off Franklin road onto Old Hickory Blvd and drive a few miles there's Harpeth Hills with around 800. Anybody can sit and fuss over a service and gripe that it wasn't exactly how Jesus would done it but sadly no city is coming close to impact of Nashville right now, and while many of the churches there are extremely conservative, Franklin road, where Otter Creek now is, in part of a 7 miles or church of Christ traffic jam and frankly any of their services are exceed many of the services, in my opinion, of sister churches in the brotherhood week after week. I'm sincerely not critizing other churches but just point out their resources, quality of teachers and size of the audience says something is right, altho I'm pretty sure somebody will disagree. In a world of many churches caught up in trying to have a bigger building and fancy facilities I thought i was remarkable that Otter Creek would put their ego on the back burner and do a little remodeling job to an old baptist church and take it "just as it is" to the next level.
Sounds like everyone is doing the AUTO STORE DANCE. We had two very old auto parts stores in LITTLE Hohenwald where we still get our parts from the wrecking yard.
A FRANCHISE Auto parts came in: you know those thingies made out of old beer cans in Japan?
Well-uh! Brand B couldn't tolerate that so they have just built a BIGGER and BETTER dispenser of car parts made of old Coke cans--next door. If there is another NAME FRANCHISE I am sure that we will have THREE of them side-by-side just like the CIRCES in Nashville, a city set on seven hills with its own temple of Athena.
Sounds like you might be a BODY COUNTER? So, if you get LAND LOCKED isn't that high time to get the Located Missionary or Missionary in Residence off his Reclining Chariot and on his ass and OFF to the missionary fields which begin about 100 miles in any direction from Nashville?
Did they have to ERECT a steeple LONGER than the one just up the street? Some research I have seen indicates that URBANS are most destabilized and more likely to fall into SORCERY which is the meaning of all arousal singing rituals.
When you lose your ATTRACTANT as at Woodmont wont the butterflies just flit on down the street to Franklin where they have procured them a Worship Leader? If you keep rolling that snow ball up the hill wont there be an INSTITUTIONAL OVER REACH and you will get rolled over? Revelation predicts that the FINAL COLLAPSE will come when the Babylon Whore religion which USES singers, musicians and other teknokrats collapses with a worse impact than when TULIP BULBS lost their currency.
No, friends, this is just a spastic spell self-induced by self-worshippers and when the class of 666 gets tired your children will RISE UP AND CALL YOU CURSED. I see that already happening. The bad effect is that the reactionary right will be the NEXT and soon back swing of the pendulum. Mark it down as a prophecy.
The MARK is ZOE who was called the "Beast and the female instructing principle." It is called Gnosticism and that is why National Geographic and most media have been given PERMISSION by theatrical churches which repudiate the Word to finish up Armageddon where the HORNS of the BEAST are musical. Max has hopes for LUCIFER and Rubel wants to baptize Santa. Right on time and we are THERE to watch something of BIBLICAL PROPORTIONS and already I can grasp why the faithful can rejoice over the BLIND being led by the BLIND into the ditch.
You mention that Brentwood Hills has 1800 members.
When Rubel Began his reaping hook I seem to rember that Brentwood Hills had about 400 members (?). They had to launch into a building program to accomodate SOME of the members driven away from Woodmont. And don't forget that Rubel had conglomerated three churches by this time so probably TWO churches ceased to exist. I say that he has attracted people of the world who gladly LIVE ON the work of sacrificial widows forced out into the cold.
Brentwood continues to be faithful and have not NEEDED to go pagan to attract people. So, tell everyone that you have a DIVIDED STREET of conflicting theologies: one is faithful to the ones who founded it. The other has been infiltrated and diverted to something radically different or the people would not have FLED Babylon and I think still flee.
I intend to be judgmental based on the totality of the Bible: if you can SUCK in the SEEKERS with show and tell then you CANNOT be attracting disciples who EXPECT to be despised and rejected by men rather than get hooked up to the MEGA church as a data base for merchandising.
Now, count up all of the "preacher counts" in Nashville and see what percentage you have. You don't even keep up with the births! Or the influx of Hispanics. As the city has expanded you have become an INCREDIBLY SHRINKING INSTITUTION. While some of those attracted by the "idolatry of talent" are still living the world will have grown from about 6 billion to maybe 10 billion. You are gloating over being a MIDGET with not a shred of testesterone or growth hormone. You are building a NEUTERED body of "warriors" and they will not reproduce.
When Gutenberg came, the preachers still preached rather than publish. When the World Wide Web came (thank you Al Gore) came, the PREACHERCRAFT just went schizophrenic and HUDDLED in masses and cried for the mountains to fall on them. When you see or hear them you know that they are a bundle of Wimpy Burgers without a GO button. At the same time they are SUCKING UP all of the money so that honest evangelists CANNOT obey the Great Commission.
and how big is your church sir. i know it's smaller but probably perfect. oh wait. you don't go anymore do you. SO I HEARD.
so you're saying the churches in Nashville should be taking lessons from Hohenwald Tenn. Where is that?
When Rubel came there nashville had a population of 300,000. Now it's 1.3 million. All these churches have benefited from population surge. Sadly however the percent of members of the church of christ in nashville is about the same as it was 10 years ago. As you can well guess, we are not the largest group in town...(why'd I say that..someone will come back with "we ain't the biggest but we got the truth") I'm just pointing out to this gentlemen that Brentwood Hills growth does not necessarily have anything to do with Rubel Shelly. But if this person lived in Nashville he'd know that. Only one person is disagreeing with the posts, but hey, he disagrees with everything. Just ask his wife
Re: No PERFORMING ROLES in the School of the Bible. Therefore, NO FUNDING.
April 26 2006, 10:15 AM
Brent,
Actually those congregations scattered across Franklin Road and Old Hickory Boulevard with swelling numbers are doing something wrong: they're compromising the Word of God to win souls. That's something that the elders and the flock will have to be held accountable for in the judgement day. Very disheartening!
I believe this is what we should call THE GRACE RACE
Someone has said that such institutions are the result of one key SELF PROMOTER who is seeking to be the Alpha Male or Chief Breeding Billy Goat. Because the end time harlot church devoted to singers, musicians, craftsmen (house builders and stage managers) is a WOMAN, behind the Alpha Male is a the TRUE Alpha Female. I believe that with a little discernment you can detect the smell: that is why God rejected menstrual blood and women from the holy precincts and why you can sniff them out.
Carroll D. Osburn quotes with approval the feminist theology which intends to end the Patriarchal churh "through small acts of treason." So, one should look for a Mother. By the way, ZOE is the ancient Babylonian and later Gnostic MOTHER OF THE GODS (Eve). She sentences the minor, dumb jehovah and the logos (son-brother) to a lower heaven. Being tricky, the jehovahs or males found out that they could appease the mother of the gods by singing up praises to her. She obligingly then PERMITTED him to move UP a heaven or two but BELOW the supreme. Once there, Zoe INSTRUCTED jehovah and sat at HIS RIGHT.
Little dumb jehovah discovered that he could appease the Mother Goddess better if he formed choirs and a musical worship band. Of course, the Musical Ministry was to worship WHOM? Why, to worship the Mother Goddess. This is also the story of The Book of Enoch which defines the female choirs and instrumentalists as leading those FOR WHOM God will come with ten thousand saints to execute judgment.
People REALLY need to read some of the Gnostic literature to see what is transpiring before your sleepy eyes. These are all FEMINISTS institutions because there is NO EXCEPTION to the rule that male musicians were the emasculated priests of the Mother Goddesses. Masculine gods were NEVER worshipped with music.
The MEGA TEMPLE of course is always the expression of MASCULINE PRIDE but are fabricated as a WOMB and the ENTRANCE in older churches had a huge VULVA which you had to rub to get in. I have photos. The erected steeple is the PHALLIC symbol like the obelisk pointing into the Vulva before St Peters.
But, who will win the Billy Goat of the Hills race? You can readily see that when you perform the FERTILITY rituals you breed more and more and Ezekiel 8 spoke of the women lamenting for Tammuz while the males worshipped the Sun in the East with the erected sun pillars.
Well, we are supposed to rejoice when God pours out his WRATH (orge) using jesters and buffoons to BEAT the silly people into captivity with musical instruments (Isaiah 30). Like the Space Race, the Grace Race will not go to the swiftest but to the ones who took pains to follow the rules.
"Will He find faith when He returns?" The answer is, no, almost none.
He said not ANY of those crying LORD LORD as the musical prophesying claiming great powers would make it: He doesn't even know their name.
Out of perhaps 3 million who made it out of Egypt only about 50,000 returned from Captivity and only about 5,000 or so were baptized believers. Out of a million who died around the MEGA CHURCH in Jerusalem only these few survived.
If you count the 144,000 from the 3 million of the Jewish tribes that calculates to about 4.8%. If you suck in 10,000 and 4.8 percent are saved is that a better RETURN ON YOUR MONEY than sending out MANY preachers who WILL teach that which has been taught and train THOUSANDS of fishermen? If you are FAITHFUL and build a SCHOOL OF THE BIBLE all of those butterflies will not attend and you can still send lots of evangelists. You could pay the local Pentecostal church to entertain them and then bring them to school.
If you see the wineskin swelling you know that it is just gas and the JUICE is on its way to spoiling. If you open the skin and inhale the gas you will pass out. If you lean over the winevat you will fall in and drown.
My right leg began to experience great GROWTH so I went to see my great physician. The model of the kingdom is not a TREE but a mushroom. When it swells up you kick it with a foot and billions of spores fly out into the world and grow new mushrooms. Maybe God will kick a few. John Calvin asked: "Why should the plowing oxen starve and the lazy asses be fed?" Indeed.
The Zoe Conference is next weekend. Anyone from here going, so that they can see what really happens there? As opposed to reporting rumors and innuendo?
Re: No PERFORMING ROLES in the School of the Bible. Therefore, NO FUNDING.
April 28 2006, 5:40 PM
Wow you guys lost me without specifics. One guy says Brentwood Hills is faithful, another says everything is wrong. I guess there will be disagreement on this forever. It's hard to evaluate not knowing where anonomous is from. I'm not trying to be scarcastic but often I find all the criticizing of large churches is from smaller churches who can't seem to grow. I work for a huge corporation and all we think about is growth and when it comes to getting people to spend money, you can't CON them. One must offer value and dependable service. Unless the entire body of Christ going down Franklin Road are morons and idiots it sounds like their salvation is in question, if you know their hearts as well as the Lord does. I don't know what to say. But I'm not going to resort to puking as one gentlemen seemed inclined to do. I hope he feels better since I made him sick. I get sick thinking about how long the church of christ has been around and how a minister in selmer tenn gets murdered and all the talk shows go thru a spell asking "who is this 'church of Christ bunch..a cult" That's when I really try hard to be optimistic that we are making progress. But let's honest. Nobody has a copyright on the name church of Christ..and unfortunantly these days it comes in so many shapes and sizes with this variation and this twist and that interpretation: good grief. If WE, as members can't seem to agree and see consistant, how in the "sam hill" is American supposed to figure us out. It's like if you bought a new Ford every 3 years and one year it 's a good car and the next it's totally different, you'd give up on that brand. All I'm sensing is nobody I know wants to go to a church and argue. Let Rush Limbaugh do that. Hopefully with God's hand on our life we'll continue to grow and eventually get closer to getting it right.
I'm serious. Sorry if that too makes you Puke Ken. I haven't arrived yet!
Seriously, guys. Please quit talking about that which you do not know. So may things flying around here about Otter, and I'm finding error in all of them! Since our church has moved to Brentwood to the Franklin Road location, we have grown to about 1200 or so. We aren't up to 1600, but we might be seeing those numbers soon as it's about time for all of the college students to come back to town.
Also, someone mentioned Lipscomb turning away from Otter....this seriously made me laugh out loud. If anything, the bond between Lipscomb and Otter Creek is becoming stronger and stronger. We have so many Lipscomb professors that attend our church, and our missions committee (of which I am a member) is becoming more and more invovled with missions at Lipscomb and how we can partner with Lipscomb in order to start creating mission-minded people at a younger age. The tides are changing at Lipscomb and at Otter Creek. God is moving.
As far as someone "allowing" us to stay a Church of Christ, well, I guess that's the great thing about the autonomy of the churches of Christ. There is no "board" or group out there somewhere to tell us how to do church. We are our own church. No one governs us but God. We answer to no one on this earth. So, because our churches are "self-governing," there is really nothing that you guys can say here that will change anything. What's the point? If you want to create change, stop talking and start acting. Come visit our church and sit down with our eldership and talk to them about your concerns. I know all of our elders and I know they would be more than happy to talk with you about what is going on at Otter Creek.
And, for goodness sakes, quit stealing posts from other forums without the consent of the original poster. That's just wrong and manipulative.
If you can't visit our church but would like to ask some serious questions about what is going on there, post them here and I will do my best to answer them. And Ken, don't butt your nose in when you really have no idea what Otter Creek is doing. It's one thing to be on a serious quest for knowledge about what Otter is doing, it's another all together to do nothing but gossip (which is a sin) and bash a church when you haven't even been there to know what that church is like.
Same old End Time Apolllyon plus MUSES (Locusts) Heresy.
September 30 2006, 1:04 PM
I see the stress on COMMUNITY which parses to COMMUNE. The "new style worship" has run its course and NOW we want to COMMUNE you. That, of course includes the same STAFF INFECTION to RUN your lives and RUIN your budget.
You do know that Peter called these CORRUPTERS of the word who "sell learning and worship RETAIL" adulterers or prostitutes. That is the universal meaning of Revelation and especially chapter 17 which identifies the end time Holy Harlot who is not called CIRCE or KIRKE meaning CIRCUS. She fornicates with visitors and then turns them into SWINE or other form of beast (Zoes).
There is NO role for STAFF INFECTION in the church because Jesus fired the "doctors of the Law" because they BY DEFINITON "take away the key to knowledge." Even if you could hallucinate the ABOMINATION you would still have to ROB WIDOWS and honest workers because PAUL takes away the LAW OF GIVING.
There is no DRAMA because the "Platonic Fallacy" they tried to dispell last year still associates all THEATRICAL PERFORMERS as Gender-Crippled. That is true of Apollo who I will address on the Madison threads. Apollo was a milder homosexual symbolized by the LYRE while the more Vineyard (aka new wineskinners) are devoted to WIND INSTRUMENTS. The CONFLICT, however, is a result of a total MENTAL BREAKDOWN among the clan of Word Merchants: Paul promised that God would DELUDE them so why not confess it?
The church in the wilderness OUTLAWED singing and instruments (the word Alarm or Triumph over), Judas was prophesied to try that on Jesus but it was left to the Levitical Warrior Musicians. Jesus quoted Isaiah and Ezekiel to identify the SECTARIAN HYPOCRITES as all "performance speakers, singers and musicians." The words for playing and love point to the perverted sexuality ALWAS the object of people who PERFORM for money and people who AUDIENCE just for entertainment.
Jesus promised to build (continue the synagogue) with the BLESSING of REST which specificially OUTLAWS speaking, singing, playing instruments and the RESULT which was practiced by the DOGS: that is why Jesus and Paul commanded worship in the PLACE of the spirit as opposed to IN THE FLESH being promoted by Zoe-Lucifer-Apollo.
All known literature for the civil ekklesia includes "to speak in a whisper or conversational tone' and when speaking the WORD the word EXCLUDES music of all kinds because this always brought on a state of MADNESS which the trafficer PEDDLE at retail and are therefore in the language of Peter ADULTERERS. When you hear the "tragedy" songs (goat songs, Capella) and the JOKES (hee haw) you will KNOW that God is pouring out His wrath meaning ORGE which means that he has SENT jesters, buffoons and musical clowns to MAKE YOU A LAUGHINGSTOCK just like the musical idolaters at Mount Sinai. That "feeling" they are inducing is ALREADY burning at your soul because ALL literates know that music HURTS. Isaiah 30 PROVES that Topheth from tambourine and king Solomon's music grove is the PICTURE of HELL was specificially prepared for Lucifer-Zow who came into the garden with Wind, String and Percussion instruments and is called "the singing and harp playing prostitute" because the music helped steal other people's property.
Because John in Revelation 18 identifies the speakers, singers, musicians, prostitutes (grinders) and craftsmen (theater builders and stage managers) as being SORCERERS, his immediate statement is that the CANDLES have already been removed. From Genesis to Revelation and ALL literature such as The Book of Enoch, the music and comedy (leading to perversion) was the MARK that people had fallen and would NEVER get up again.
Be sure to look at the NADAB material and the SCAPE GOAT: it will prove that the musical SORCERERS (A capella, Azazel) have historically been WORTHLESS PEOPLE who are singled out by the leaders THINKING (subconsiously or unconsiously) that they can REMOVE the sin which MUSIC and DRAMA marks as GLUED FOR LIFE. Their Azazel, scapegoat, a capella ritual is ACTUALLY an offering made to BUY OFF SATAN. Isn't that so prophetic?
Looking to the Hills is an unconsious mark that they are WORSHIPING THE HILLS OR MOUNTAING GODS rather than the Creator of the hills. The Bible does not COMMAND but askes the RHETORICAL QUESTION: "Shall WE look to the Hills?" Of course not, that MARKS people as already lost beyond redemption because they had TAMPERED with God's word and the RETAILED their pollution: the maning of Pharisee.
Watch your back, and follow Jesus and don't bow and do the Dionysus song and dance while they PIPE. 'no wat i mean?'
if this is the same ZOE group that held a conference at WestHouston about 4 years ago or so- it was a mess. If i recall- the pulpiy preacher left shortly thereafter.
I probably should have started a new topic as this one is a running commentary of Otter Creek going over a 4 year period and clearly a lot of drama has been centered around this place. I was a tourist in Nashville Easter and decided to go. It was ok. I didn't know what to expect.
The people are friendly and whatever we discuss here won't change a thing. An elder confirmed the membership is off some, down to around 900 with visitors and Lipscomb kids inflating it to over a 1000 some Sundays.
The feel is very youthful. Lots of younger family's perhaps at a different place than some of us. The praise team is good, the worship leader has a kind of Carnivale Cruise Line energy level and probably loves being on stage more than anything in the world. Easter felt a bit manipulated. Lots of sincere testimony about how God is working in lives and stories of change and fellowship and I believe them, but I'm a long way from having the worship guy say "after you've tried everything, you figure out you need Jesus." Yeah I know. Years ago I got it and I go to Him first not after floundering in all kinds of vague areas. Then Tim Woodruff who I'm sure is a good fellow had a warm but not all that inspiring talk about how great life is as a christian and assured us all the tears shed today were genuine. Not much text. A basic Easter talk we've heard a thousand times.
Maybe it was the devil working on me but my mind kept flashing to the huge traffic jam 1 mile away at Fellowship Bible church with their 4 services on easter and a memory of some who have left Otter Creek saying "fellowship bible church is just deeper" Otter creek seems like "christian lite" but that's ok if that's the crowd they want, they need Jesus too. But don't look for scholarship and deep study. It's a nice show and you leave feeling good sort of the same feeling you get after going to Dairy Queen.
Now before an Otter Creek member tears me apart, I was a visitor and I've seen lots of churches and know our fellowship now comes in all shapes and sizes with target markets and specific group appeal. It's almost segmented. But last year I'm told Brother Woodruff made an offer to his church: let's study the Bible together verse by verse for a year.They passed out 1 year bibles to everybody complete with reading schedules and accountability sheets. He promised to preach each Sunday on the texts from that week and it could have been great deep learning and growth for the members.
What happened?
After 7 weeks they got behind and they lost interest and he lost interest and before February was over they abandoned the idea without a fight and without anyone saying "but we need to study this, there are points we can learn."
Guess it didn't bother the elders that deep Bible study was dismissed. The members didn't miss it. It was never brought up again but the worship leader sang on and they have fun every sunday praising and enjoying church without dealing with hard stuff.
That's ok if you're 30 and just trying to hold your family together.
I wonder tho where their elders go to grow. I'm sure they're good men but it feels more touchy feely happy and very appealing to new or less mature Christians. Maybe they do the deep stuff in sunday night small groups. That's the company line I hear a lot today but it's more social than study reports everywhere show.
I hoped for more. But it's where they are and they're happy and probably feel free from the predictable church of Christ appearances in Nashville. You know some just love to be different.
From the Easter service of 2007 here's what I got: Think Joel Osteen without the instruments. Altho there were drums on the platform. I guess for those who want to jump shout and dance all about, that's for later in the day or something. They never mentioned it. But for a service that lasted 1 1/2 hours it was the shallow end of the swimming pool. Tim is smart guy. He could go deeper. But he's gonna have to arm wrestle the worship leader who thinks the service is centered around his praise team. But that's what 900 people at O C as they call it order from the menu. And like churches I've studied they will either grow and mature or being a fun starting point for families that move elsewhere for the deep stuff. I'm not convinced the elders planned it. I think it's Woodruff and the worship guy with their plan to not look like anyother church on Franklin Road.
I know there are more interesting places that can and will feed me with the words of Jesus and not feel a need to display a former drug addict as evidence Jesus is alive. I appreciate the drama. But, Jesus is working in all our lives and obviously the Otter Creek crowd is not a street ministry with needle scared arms of heroin users. Most people there probably had no idea what they were talking about. I don't know why they chose that approach. Maybe it was for the Lipscomb students.
I don't know how I ended up on this site...it was a round about way. I honestly hate these little mousy sites that hide underground and gripe about things that people aren't guts enough to stand up and change. But that's another topic for another day.
I am the guy you wrote about so flippantly here...Carnival Cruise Line kind of stage presence...and that I believe the service is all about me and the praise team.
How does it feel to cast stones? Does it help you feel better about yourself? Do you even know me? That kind of attitude was not my heart at all...and people like you who spread garbage like this need to take a long hard look at what you're doing. I pray God's grace is bigger for you than yours is for others.
