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Otter Creek-Zoe Group, Nashville,Tn.

December 12 2003 at 7:45 AM
John  (no login)
from IP address

Can someone give me more information about one of the churches the leader of the Zoe Group is associated with, Otter Creek? I've read all about Woodmont Hills but haven't seen as much about Otter Creek. Thanks.

This message has been edited by ConcernedMembers from IP address on Dec 12, 2003 12:11 PM

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Kenneth Sublett
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Zoe Group

December 12 2003, 10:43 PM 

Zoe Group is located at Otter Creek. John York, co preacher with Rubel Shelly got a "call" to go to Beaverton, Oregon. He found himself in the midst of a Bible believing church. He mixed up his message from God and landed at Otter Creek. Get the joke? Sometimes when people like York and Shelly claim to hear God's voice, AUDIBLY, they may have tuned in on the wrong channel.

I have reviewed lots of Zoe Group. They sow discord by teaching female leadership, singing, drama, music and approve of instruments or about anything which will LIGHT THE FIRE. One of the latest is:

ACU is also calling down God's holy fire which is the latest theme of the Zoe Group

In the Greek version EVE is ZOE or life. This has led the Babylonians, Catholics, Gnostics and modern GNOSTICS to see her as THE MOTHER OF THE GODS. There is much more contained in the Hebrew background than most will pay attention to.

Zoe, daughter of Sophia, (under different names) gave birth to "little dumb Jehovah" and put him into the abyss. He quickly figured out that if he wanted to be safe around the FEMINISTS goddesses, he had better learn to compose and send up PRAISE TUNES. The females RAISED UP Jehovah to the seventh heaven but STILL BELOW the Supreme God. In the seventh heaven, being very cunning, He organized musical worship teams. Did they worship the Supreme God above? No. They worshipped Sophia and Zoe.

In the literature, Sophia is the SERPENT and ZOE is the BEAST (zoe from flesh). She is also the "female instructing principle."

This FEMALE CREATURE runs the worship of the church (Circe, Kirke, holy whore). However, she and all of her musicians, instrumentalists and craftsmen (program facilitators, etc) will again be sent where they belong.

All of these crafts (Gr. Techne) such as rhetoricians, sOPHISts (serpents or OPHIS), singers and musicians onced functioned in defunct SACRIFICIAL systems. Then and when the temples failed (as they will always fail) they performed as SORCERERS (and Exorcists) and were known as PARASITES.

Zoe people BELIEVE that they are sincere but they can cut you real bad if you try to oppose them:Judas was Judas Sicarri which means assassins or "daggar men." He also carried the JUDAS BAG which was ALWAYS attached to a flute case. It means "speaking in tongues" and "of the world" or Kosmos where Satan is the Kosmokraetor. The singers-dancers were usually NAKED and perverted and that is why Jesus and the faithful would not BOW DOWN in singing and dancing while the clergy blew their pipes.

My old peacable church in Seattle learned how to make music which means to lie, cheat and steal the church house of widows. Sunday night, as expected, sounds like witchcraft. Barbelo is also Sophia-Zoe.

Don't ever believe that Paul was ignorant or evil when he told us about non-sedentary women in the assembly. When women "behind the throne" begin to jab, the weak or effeminate male, usually self-selected, elders bow down because of their own character or to get more funds for their JUDAS BAG. Women and weird preachers have historically been the ONLY promoters of RELIGION while Jesus built an ekklesia (synagogue) or school of the Bible for DISCIPLES and not pagan worshipers.

The Hebrew HALAL in various forms of PRAISE means to "make yourself vile." In Arabic, halal means "kosher meat." Why would anyone call themselves A Cappells (popes castrates) or Halal or Zoe Group and TOTALLY MISS the Jezebel Group?

Ken Sublett

This message has been edited by ConcernedMembers from IP address on Dec 13, 2003 8:05 AM

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(no login)

OK, that's all very interesting...

December 15 2003, 7:52 AM 

But it doesn't really tell me much about Otter Creek itself. Is there some hard information out there? Thanks again.

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twang town
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how do you make a 'D' chord, brother?

January 1 2004, 7:00 PM 

it's no secret that the otters have been making prolific use of instruments for several years now, and i'm not just talking back-up cd tracks. they've used a full band (guitars, drums, guitars, keyboards - not the oboe, french horn band) for various 'special music' holiday presentations for quite a while. similiar situations have existed at teen retreat and adult retreats, as well. it's not like this has been done in secret.

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Kenneth Sublett
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D chord?

January 2 2004, 9:19 AM 

I am sorry but my PERVERTED mind and 100% of history connecting RELIGIOUS MUSIC to SEXUALITY will not resist saying:

I have forgotten how to make a "D" chord,
But THEY know how to TWANG the "G" string.

I. a limb...within my BODILY FRAME, breaking down "limb by limb"

II. a song, strain, Hhymn... lyric poetry... to write in lyric strain
....lyric poetry, the CHORAL SONGS,
....opposed to the DIALOG

melôid-ia , hê, singing, chanting, CHORAL SONGS, LULLABY


"The MUSES (musicians) or secondary GODDESSES were USED by Apollo at his SEEKER CENTER at Delphi. They were the daughters of ZEUS. These were the GODDESSES of the arts, drama, music, and the power behind them. The Muses were: Clio (history), Calliope (epic poetry), Erato (love poetry), Euterpe (lyric poetry), Melpomene (tragedy), Polyhymnia (song, rhetoric, and geometry), Thalia (comedy), Terpsichore (dancing), and Urania (astronomy and astrology). In fact the word "music" is derived from Muse, and means "art of the Muses". A more definitive way of putting it would be "art of the goddesses".

It is interesting to see that the "ART of the goddesses" is also being used today in a psychological manner; even in the church. This is seen especially in The Church Growth Movement. For instance, CGM forerunner Bill Hybels of Willow Creek Community Church [a church into using drama and music to reach people] says,

"A person's resistance to persuasion is very high when SPOKEN TO...

....but VERY LOW when exposed to drama and music.


....lyric poetry, the CHORAL SONGS,
....opposed to the DIALOG


....We communicate truth through the BACK DOOR. People don't even know it's happening." Daily Herald, May 18, 1988.

"We can explain this by saying that the ARTS of the Muses have a power to LOWER RESISTANCE in order to persuade a person's thinking, and subtly at that [which is disturbing].

...We can see the concepts of this same myth used by marketing psychology in radio and TV commercials. Commercials use music and drama to affect our minds in this manner.

In the Greek world, males who did this were PERVERTED or DRUNK. This is why they used GOWNS but loose enough that THOSE WITH EYES can understand that the Holy Whore of Revelation 18:22 is at the PEAK OF HER WEAK and the frantic--yea, hostile and violent--MUSES as resurrected LOCUSTS (musical performers) have to STING as many people as possible for Lucifer-Zoe.

See the PROMISE KEEPER'S authority for MAX LUCADO'S new vision and Rubel Shelly's NEW GLASSES for a NEW VISION for the CHURCH:

Ken Sublett

This message has been edited by ConcernedMembers from IP address on Jan 2, 2004 9:54 AM

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(no login)


January 2 2004, 2:27 PM 

Thank you for opening my eyes!!
Your wisdom and understanding of the gospel message is unsurpassed in my experience.
I've been attending Otter Creek for a number of years but was never made aware of their sins until I read about your experiences there.

I need to know!! Is this an unforgivable sin?
I was baptized before I attended Otter Creek, so I hope my baptism is still valid and can get me into heaven.
What am I to do??
How can I put an end to this evil, which sounds worse than all of Adolf Hitler's actions?
Should I attend another church??
If so, can you recommend a church in Nashville that teaches the truth? I would love nothing more than to attend your church.
If God can't forgive me of this sin, then I might as well quit going to church.

Thanks for exposing how much God hates to hear any sound except for human voices! I now wonder if He's ever heard anything I've said to Him.
You have truly preached GOOD NEWS.
Wow, I'm in awe.

P.S. How do I quit speaking in tongues?

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Kenneth Sublett
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January 2 2004, 6:05 PM 

Dear HELP,

I am sorry that you are having trouble GIVING HEED to the words. However, this is a symptom. From the garden of Eden to the end-time Babylonian worship, SELF-DIRECTING is the result of hungering and thirsting for the WORD and not able to find it (Amos 5, 6, 8; Isaiah 5) because the "Shepherds" refuse to FEED you.

This is not about YOU in the least. Let me tell you as a long time student with a problem I have found some answers. My problem was trying to reconciling my honest research of the Bible which has NOTHING good to say about "music" even if lost souls did. And, indeed, all of the musical terms and names of instruments in a "religious sense" began with Lucifer (Zoe) the superior to Jesus the Word who caused the fall of the angels. He/She appeared in the garden of Eden with wind, string and percussion instruments to WHOLLY SEDUCE Eve and ends with Revelation 18 warning about the end-time APOSTATE CHURCH which depends on "rhetoricians, sOPHISst (serpents), singers and musicians. All identified as part of the HYPOCRITE sect, all called SORCERERS and all PARASITES.

On the other hand, false teachers quite naturally see God 110% commanding music and instruments and identify those who OPPOSE them as SATANIC. This naturally produces a CONFLICT or as you might say DISCORD and we wonder how the "church" can exist as "christian" and still tell God that HE is a Liar. Well, in fact it cannot. The REMNANT is always tiny and will have to COME OUT of most end-time churches who actually HIRE PROFESSIONAL MUSICIANS to attract the WORLD'S MAJORITY who have sold themselves to Satan or Lucifer called the "singing and harp-playing prostitute" in the Garden of Eden.

To make the SOWING OF DISCORD impossible, Jesus built a SYNAGOGUE which is a school of the Bible. Thereafter, anything which SOWS DISCORD and does not contribute to the EDIFICATION or EDUCATION of the Disciples or Students is to MARK those who are Anti-Biblical and therefore Anti-Christian because the Lucifer Principle is to claim the godhead (as did Zoe) and her countertypes in Babylon and in later Gnosticism.

Now the Holy Spirit is the Mind of Christ (1 Cor 2). Jesus, in turn said MY WORDS are SPIRIT and LIFE. As the Spirit OF Truth, the Word is the only resource for the SCHOOL OF THE BIBLE. In the meantime, the Spirit of Christ was careful to call the Old Testament effort at self-redemption NOISE or SOUND. It does not teach.

Rather than being the SAFE HARBOR for professional SOWING OF DISCORD, the SYNAGOGUE solves the diversity which existed in Rome among once MUSICL WORSHIPERS associated with EATING MEAT or NOT eating meat.

For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink;
but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost. Rom 14:17

For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men. Rom 14:18

Let us therefore follow after the things which make for PEACE, and things wherewith one may EDIFY ANOTHER. Rom 14:19

In the assembly or SYNAGOGUE Paul showed how DIVERSE backgrounds can ASSEMBLE as STUDENTS or DISCIPLES where they could NEVER agree on a RELIGIOUS RITUAL or PAGAN system.

Then try to see in Romans 15 that GOD IN CHRIST did not PLEASE Himself. That means to EXCITE THE SENSES. We are commanded to not PLEASE ourself in the sensuous way but please everyone with JUST WHAT EDIFIES and no more.

Paul said that the METHOD is to use ONE MIND and one MOUTH. The goal was to GLORIFY God and not the "Theatrical Performers" who have a bad name in the Bible and in ALL of history. The RESOURCE was to be "That which is written." That, of course meant "Psalms, Hymns and Spiritual songs" which are ALL the inspired Biblical text.

When you make the HARD WIRED CONNECT in children's minds between "the works of human hands" or "the idolatry of talent" and the SPIRIT worship of a Holy or WHOLLY Spirit God, you have done something SPIRITUALLY DESTRUCTIVE to them. If the authorities had SPIRITUAL INSIGHT they would lock you up.

If I let you DIVERT me from what the BIBLE says in contrast to what the PROFESSIONAL THEATER people say then we would not be able to be DISIPLES and SYNAGOGUE with God in the human SPIRIT. Here is one take which connects slightly with the PROPHECY that the Judas types would MOCK Jesus musicially even on the cross:

The Judas Bag is PICTURED and DEFINED in graphic detail in hundreds of PORTRAITS on ancient pottery. The Judas Bag was for "carrying the mouthpieces of wind instruments." It was ALWAYS attached to a flute case and means "Speaking in tongues" and "of the world." Jesus SPOOKED Judas by the SOP which has the same meaning as MELODY. Judas was prophesied to try to TRIUMPH OVER Jesus in a musical sense.

I am still working on the following one but if you want to read the message Jesus pointed to when He said,'My God why hast..." you need to DISCIPLE yourself to Psalm 22 and shame, shame, shame on shepherd who muddy the water and fail to help you be DISCIPLES because DISCIPLES are Christians and stirring up the flesh is NEVER done by Christians to disciples. Never.

Still working on this one.

Ken: if you didn't intend to let Jesus REMIT your sins at baptism SO THAT you could become HIS Disciple then you may want to think about your baptism.

This message has been edited by ConcernedMembers from IP address on Jan 3, 2004 9:07 AM

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(no login)

Heed Ken's word brothers

January 5 2004, 11:43 AM 

Dear brothers and sisters (those that are scripturally submissive that is!),

Heed the good word Ken is blessing us with. Lucifer (Zoe) goes around like a roaring lion seeking who he may devour (he may devour - alto). He is right as rain about the false teachers that continue to pervert the industrial carpeted aisles of God's churches (at least those without red carpet that symbolizes the Roman,pagan orgies that would take place between Badeomition tournements - which we now know as present day badminton).

I have seen first hand with my own eyes, even though I am a double amputee and have glaucoma, the wicked ways of Otter Creek and their minister John York. They present non-sbumissive women on stage, some dressed in red (remember red=pagan=orgy=badminton!)

I. Women should NEVER

1. Speak aloud in church.
IVI. Talk alound in church.
C. Hit the babies with the songbooks.

Ken is also right in his response to "Sacred Cow Dung"
We can NEVER hear the truth enough. Repetition is essential to guard against Lucifer (Zoe).

Ken is also right in his response to "Sacred Cow Dung".
We can NEVER hear the truth enough. Repetition is essential to guard against Lucifer (Zoe).

The Babaloyians did pervert the truth through the derivitive of Zoe which also corresponds to the Samarian "Zoeingo"... and trust me Bingo was NOT his name O!

"Help" follow my word, as well as Ken's, and flee the evil of Otter Creek, their "Zoe Ho's" and Lucifer's badminton playing, cabana boy John York before you are lost FOREVER!

Have a blessed day,


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Kenneth Sublett
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Reject Baptism/Phallic Worship PROPHECY

January 3 2004, 9:19 PM 

Men like Rubel Shelly and John York specificially and probably ALL of the "doctors of the Law" peddling false information claim that God just TOLD THE STORY of the people within THEIR culture. Since they have discovered the profound secret that CULTURE changes they are going to let GOD PARTNER with them to derive A STORY to fit OUR EXPERIENCES WITH GOD.

Now, Martin Luther's Sola Fide or Faith Only is a fact. But, Luther knowing that we are not ABLE to PARTNER with God meant that even the SIMPLIEST of us can read the WORD of God, have faith in the REVELATION and be baptized because FAITH must have an object. It doesn't take to much to read and teach the word "as it has been taught." However, if you PRESUME to be a doctor of the law and TAMPER with the WORD you MUST understand that God has laid a TRAP for you in every major doctrine. If you GO BEYOND WHAT IS WRITTEN God is going to DELUDE you or make a BUFFOON out of you.

That is why the MEAT of the Word is written so that the DOCTORERS of the Word cannot even hear what is said without perverting it. Therefore, rather than a STORY, the Bible is full of ongoing PROPHETIC TYPES. For instance, notice how Jesus LUMPS those who reject baptism with CHILDREN who PLAY meaning that they are given to DIONYSUS worshipers just like the Jewish Clergy to whom Jesus would not EXPLAIN the meaning of GOSPEL.

And all the people that HEARD him, and the PUBLICANS, JUSTIFIED God, being baptized with the baptism of John. Luke 7:29 [i.e. did not call God a LIAR]
.....BUT the PHARISEES and LAWYERS rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being NOT BAPTIZED of him. Luke 7:30

It has always been Christ and the PEOPLE in MORTAL COMBAT with the Pharisees (Law changers, consumers of Widow's Living)

The DOCTORS of the LAW will become PSEUDO-GREEK SCHOLARS but they will HIDE the true musical/perversion background from you: That is their ASSIGNMENT as AGENTS.
And the Lord said, Whereunto then shall I liken the MEN of this generation? and to what are they like? Luke 7:31

They are like unto CHILDREN sitting in the MARKETPLACE (CDs, seminars, books as SCRIBES of the SECTARIAN HYPOCRITES), and calling one to another, and saying, We have PIPED unto you, and ye have not DANCED; we have mourned to you, and ye have not wept. Luke 7:32

For the SCHOLARS keeping you DUMB AND DUMBER, Jesus HIDES the truth from the false CLERGY and points the PEOPLE or those OF THE TRUTH to what ANY Greek Scholar knows but intends to HIDE from you. The MEN were like the CHORUS LEADERS or DAMSELS:

Paidion (g3813)pahee-dee'-on; neut. dimin. of 3816; a childling (of either sex), i.e. (prop.) an infant, or (by extens.) a half- grown boy or girl; fig. an IMMATURE CHRISTIAN: - (little, young) child, DAMSEL.

Pais (g3816) paheece; perh. from 3817; a boy (as often beaten with impunity), or (by anal.) a girl, and (gen.) a child; spec. a slave or servant (espec. a MINISTER to a KING; and by eminence to God): - child, maid (-en), (man) servant, son, young man.

Paio (g3817) pah'-yo; a prim. verb; to hit (as if by a single blow and less violently than 5180); spec. to STING (as a SCORPION): - smite, strike.

They USED the children as CHORUS LEADERS and often ABUSED THEM.

This is also the meaning of EXTERNAL MELODY.

Apollo, Abaddon or Apollyon (of Seeker-Center fame) unleashes the LOCUSTS. In the SECRET MESSAGE John is delivering to you MINIMAL FOUNDATION is that the locusts were MOTHER GODDESS worshipers who had offended HER and been sent to the netherworld. Now, resurrected LOCUST are musical performers. However,

And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be TORMENTED five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man. Re.9:5

THE DANCE they wanted to induce into JESUS was the:

Orcheomai (g3738) or-kheh'-om-ahee; mid. from orchos , (a row or ring); to dance (from the ranklike or regular motion): - dance

Greek with same meaning:

choreia 1 [choreuo]
I. a dance, esp. the CHORAL or round dance with its MUSIC, Eur., Ar.
II. a dance tune, Ar.

lur-oidia , hê, SONG to be sung to the LYRE

Bakchebakchon aisai sing the song (to BACCHUS) beginning with Bakche Bakche! [Which is like Lord, Lord in their "prophesying"]

> hallikos , e, on, of or for the phallos: to ph. (sc. melos) the phallic song, also a dance

> phallos 1 membrum virile, phallus, a figure borne in PROCESSION in the Bacchic orgies, as an emblem of the generative power in nature,

You can see lots of PHALLIC symbols in Nashville: there are FOUR which look like those worshipped by the ancient Jews.

> melos

I. a limb, Hom., etc.; meleôn entosthe within my bodily frame, Aesch.; kata melea LIMB by LIMB
II. a SONG, strain, Hhymn., etc.:--esp. of lyric poetry, en meleï poieein to write in lyric strain, Hdt.; melê, ta, lyric poetry,

Paul commanded SPEAKING, TEACHING, ADMONISHING in order to TEACH. Paul's PREACHING was DIALOG because LECTURES do not intend to teach but to MANIPULATE MINDS.

The Choral dance regularly appears with:


Trag. only pres.: ( [pais] ):--prop., PLAY like a child, SPORT, têi de th' hama Numphai
...4. play on a MUSICAL INSTRUMENT, h.Ap.206: c. acc., Pan ho kalamophthonga (played on the REED) paizôn, dance and sing,

See Apollo who is the DRIVER of the NEW STYLE WORSHIP MUSIC from hell.

"O Lord, Lycia is yours and lovely Maeonia [180] and Miletus, charming city by the sea, but over wave-girt Delos you greatly reign your own self.
Leto's all-glorious son goes to rocky Pytho, playing upon his HOLLOW LYRE clad in divine, PERFUNED garments; and his LYRE, [185] at the touch of the golden key, sings sweet. Thence, swift as thought, he speeds from earth to OLYMPUS, to the house of ZEUS, to join the gathering of the other gods:
....then straightway the undying gods think ONLY of the LYRE and SONG, and all the MUSES together, voice sweetly ANSWER voice , [190]

NOTE: the Babylon "gods" created mankind to perform RELIGIOUS RITUALS because the "gods" grew tired. Perhap's God's WORD also just ran its course.

"Meanwhile the rich-tressed Graces and cheerful Seasons dance with [195] HARMONIA and Hebe and Aphrodite, daughter of Zeus, holding each other by the wrist.
...And AMONG them sings one, not mean nor puny, but tall to look upon and enviable in mien, ARTEMIS who delights in ARROWS (like Cupid's), sister of Apollo. [200] Among them SPORT Ares and the keen-eyed Slayer of Argus, while APOLLO plays his LYRE stepping high and featly and a RADIANCE shines around him, the gleaming of his feet and close-woven vest. And they, [205] even gold-tressed Leto and wise Zeus, rejoice in their great hearts as they watch their dear son playing among the undying gods.

NOTE: these are the characteristics of LUCIFE or ZOE trying to TRIUMPH OVER (musically) the True Jehovah as the True Logos.

"When your father invited the gods to a very well-ordered banquet at his own dear Sipylus, in return for the meals he had enjoyed, then it was that the god of the splendid trident seized you,

...his mind overcome with desire, and carried YOU away on his team of golden horses to the highest home of widely-honored Zeus, which at a later time Ganymede came also, to perform the SAME SERVICE for Zeus.

Zeus-Dionysus was the Abomination in the Jerusalem Temple. The end time will be IDENTICAL the SINGERS and MUSICIANS will claim to lead you to the HIGHEST HOME of God but it is JUST a sexual sexperience!

We told you the UNIVERSAL UNDERSTANDING of religious singers and musicians: "They were the HAREM OF THE GODS." If you RAISE YOUR HANDS in one of these rituals you are, as the Vineyard (aka New Wineskins insists) HAVING SEX with some "god." But the SPIRIT is AN unholy spirit. THERE IS NO KNOWN EXCEPTION.

....But when you disappeared, and people did not bring you back to your mother, for all their searching, right away some envious neighbor whispered that they cut you limb from limb with a knife into the water's rolling boil over the fire, and among the tables at the last course they divided and ate your flesh.

WHEN you DARE TO DANCE with the gods, they USE and ABUSE you and then BURN YOU.

Ganymede was Apollo's CATAMITE. You remember, Jesus also asked:

"But what went ye out for to see? A man clothed in SOFT raiment? Behold, they which are gorgeously apparelled, and live delicately, are in kings courts. Lu.7:25

SOFT IS: Malakos (g3120) mal-ak-os'; of uncert. affin.; soft, i.e. fine (clothing); fig. a CATAMITE: - effeminate, soft.

Liddell and Scott malakos , e, on, soft:
....b. faint-hearted, COWARDLY
....c. MORALLY WEAK, lacking in SELF-CONTROL


"Upon hearing that Ganymede was to be CUP BEARER as well as Zeus' lover, the infinitely jealous Hera was outraged. Therefor Zeus set Ganymede's image among the STARS as the constellation AQUARIUS, the water carrier. Aquarius was originally the Egyptian god over the Nile. The Egyptian god poured water not wine from a flagon.

"All of Zeus' scandalous liaisons have ALLEGORICAL meanings. Zeus' torrid affair with Ganymede was a RELIGIOUS JUSTIFICATION for homosexuality within the Greek culture.

Before the popularity of the ZEUS and GANYMEDE myth spread,

...the only toleration for SODOMY was an EXTERNAL form of GODDESS WORSHIP. Cybele's male devotees tried to achieve unity with her by CASTRATING themselves and DRESSING like women.

"While Platonic love needed women for regeneration purposes (grow the attendance)
...the philosopher used this MYTH to justify his SEXUAL feelings towards his ALL MALE PUPILS.

Watch out for those NEW WARRIORS from PK on their PHALLIC JOURNEY. WHY would there be such a RUSH of 40,000 "clergy" to Atlanta to begin their PHALLIC JOURNEY? Why ELSE do "doctors of the law" CUNNINGLY HIDE and DENY the universal MARK of Music as the sign that Abaddon and his MUSIC have landed? Why do, in Paul's mind, LOVE TO BE FOOLED when the PERSONAE of PLAYING has always had a bad reputation? Is it to CALL OUT those under Lucifer, the singing and harp playing prostitute? The book of Revelation shows that those NOT DRIVEN OUT by the musical LOCUSTS (Muses under Apollyon) are PUNISHED by the "gods."

Remember, from above:


The OLD WIDOWS trusted their SHEPHERDS to be their SUPPORT SYSTEM and COMFORT in old age. But, he, he, he, haw, "we gonna INFILTRATE and DIVERT" them to ANOTHER STATION. But, our comfort? We gonna "teach, teach, teach" that the PLAYING CHILDREN are now in control.

The more PROGRAMS or MINISTRIES or even PYRAMIDAL ORGANIZATION CHARTS they have the MORE you must grasp that the end-time BABYLON WHORE (Rev. 18) has you IN THE GRIP OF HER GRUDGE.

MORE LATER on the MUSIC and certain mark of RELIGIOUS ADULTERY. It's in the BOOK and that is why probably ALL once Christian institutions have the DESPERATE TASK of TAKING AWAY THE KEY TO KNOWLEDGE. FOOL STILL LOVE TO BE FOOLED: THAT IS WHY THE TERM "REMNANT" does not include the MEGA-CHURCHES. Sorry about that but THERE IS NO EXCEPTION in the Bible, paganism, the Classics or church history.

Remember the PROPHETIC TYPE that the then and now false CLERGY and "SCHOLARS" were not INTENDED to understand is:

REPUDIATING baptism calls God a Liar because the Pharisees and doctors of the Law defended and defend the MUSICAL PLAY of children which HAS NO OTHER meaning but that the clergy intends to INDUCT you into SEXUAL worship of the "gods" or ZOE, the Mother of the Gods.

DON'T FORGET: The "consealed end-time prophecy" to TRIP UP those MARKED is that APOLLYON or APOLLO and HIS MUSES and INSTRUMENTALISTS are CLEARLY PROPHESIED. Why would the worst TROUBLERS in Church history decide at JUST THIS TIME to organize EXACTLY as John Prophesied?

THAT WORRIES ME A BIT but perhaps you DIDN'T hear the TRUMPET.


This message has been edited by ConcernedMembers from IP address on Jan 4, 2004 12:39 PM

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Sacred Cow
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Mooops I Did It Again

December 15 2003, 1:40 PM 

Mooops I Did It Again,
I broke down and I'm responding to yet another Ken Special. Actually, I think I'm going to start doing what Ken does. If you've noticed, Ken says the same thing in every article he writes. For instance, if you ask him about any issue known to man, he brings up the use of instruments in the church. It's the same information over and over again.

Just curious though - really I am curious - can you show me in "the Bible" where God dislikes or hates the use of instruments as much as you do? Did you have a bad experience in highschool band? Did you get cut from just seem to have an intense reaction to the "M" word (music) and the "I" word (instruments). Counseling might be an option. A 12 step program maybe. No really, I am taking you serious. When you do so, would you also compare the scriptures where we see instrument use - negatively and positively?

You sound like a scratched CD that continues to skip. Sorry, a CD - you know a compact disc - a broken record if you will.Ken, when was the last time you worshiped at the Creek? You also mentioned John York and Rubel Shelly, don't you mean John Shelly and Ruebel York, I hear they're good friends with Max Walling and Jeff Lucado - who you love to mention as well.

"You must advise the elders that you will not PAY for the youth minister because that is where most of the division is coming from. They are fueled from men like Max Walling who is advising the youth ministers that they might have to get out of the church of Christ if they cannot make changes." Remember Ken?

"Sometimes when people like York and Shelly claim to hear God's voice, AUDIBLY, they may have tuned in on the wrong channel." Ken, which channel are you tuned in to? But then again, you didn't claim to hear God's voice AUDIBLY.

Have you heard of followers that get lost? We all get lost sometimes Ken. Can you admit that that you've followed a rabbit down a hole that has no end?

Sacred Cow

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December 15 2003, 3:15 PM 

Little Johnny Wesley's mother was asked by a friend:

"Why do you tell little Johnny the same thing 20 times."

Mom,answered, "Cause little Johnny couldn't GRASP it the 19th time."

So, I have to go on and on. Just say ZOE (Lucifer) and you define Otter Creek, Shelly, York, etal. Nuff sed?

There ARE new readers and OLD infidels so I have to repeat for each generation. Why do you singy-clappers say Lord lord (Hallelujah) 20 times?


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Just say Kenny....

December 15 2003, 9:50 PM 

You say Kenny, I say Lucifer.....where do you get these hairbrained ideas Kenny? Name one scripture and quit naming your other wordly sources for a change. You and Donnie and the almighty waddey are the only ones who post here anymore. I have to get my hip waders on to wade through the horse hocky you post here. You make no sense and like the previous poster say the same thing over and over and over again. I don't even need to read your posts (and I don't) to get what you are saying. Same old horse hocky....


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Kenneth Sublett
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Saying, jeffy

December 16 2003, 10:13 AM 

Literate Bible readers (those who have not already invited delusion through singy-clappy singers and preachers) grasp that:

Jesus said I will build my EKKLESIA. When the ekklesia (house or local members) ASSEMBLED Paul used a form of the word SYNAGOGUE.

Jesus also said MAKE DISCIPLES. The ONLY WAY one becomes a DISCIPLE is through two equal participles:


A DISCIPLE is a CHRISTIAN or follower of whatsoever Jesus taught personally or revealed to the apostles.

Those who reject or minimize BAPTISM CANNOT BY DEFINITION be Christians and are, logically, ANTI-CHRISTIANS, traitors and still infidels.

If you REPUDIATE ME telling you EXACTLY what the Living Word reveald then you REPUDIATE God-Incarnate who made sure that as the SPIRIT OF CHRIST it was written down, in Peter's words, for our REMEMBRANCE. The Bible is the only MEMORY BANK of God who INVITES ALL but few are saved to move into the SPIRITUAL REALM. Baptism is the TEST of whether He will BEAM YOU UP or let you burn.

Jesus ADDS only BAPTIZED BELIEVERS to His synagogue or SCHOOL OF THE BIBLE. The word DISCIPLE precludes, outlaws and anethamatizes collecting WORSHIPERS in the perverted, musical sense of ALL PAGANS. By being BELIEVETH NOTS by rejecting BAPTISM Jesus says that they are TRAITORS and INFIDELS: you cannot TRUST any one minimizing BAPTISM because they are agents of the MAJORITY already discipled by SATAN.

When the assembly met they were called DISCIPLES which means STUDENTS. Paul's UNIQUE worship word is to GIVE HEED to the Word as students and observers of the DEATH of Christ where we do not do singy-clappy but GRIEVE with Him when He visits our assembly.

When Paul PREACHED he TAUGHT and DIALOGED or communed with his listeners.

The DISCIPLES were first identified as CHRISTIANS at Antioch. That is, the truth was OUTED that DISCIPLES made ONLY by Baptism and Teaching of those with faith, were CHRISTIANS or students of Christ.

Now the CONCERNED MEMBERS FORUM is a SCHOOL of the BIBLE and of CHRIST. ANYONE can TEACH as about any male could READ THE BIBLE in the synagogue. However, most people came to Synagogue or Christian assemmbly as STUDENTS.

If the PREACHER (without portfolio from God) is one of the FEW who teach in YOUR church, why don't you just GET UP THERE with the SAME authority the preacher has?

Donnie is a MASTER TEACHER of this SYNAGOGUE or School of the Bible. Paul's BEST word was not PREACH in the form of modern SOOTHSAYRS or SORCERIERS (rhetoricians, sOPHISts {serpents}, singers, musicians {locusts} and CRAFTSMEN or system makers (pyramid builders). Paul taught what he wanted to teach and DIALOGED or COMMUNED with the STUDENTS as they had questions. THE masses take what they want from this forum and leave the rest.

That a few HECKLERS or HEGLIANS try to STING Jesus the Living word by Stinging His Written Word, this makes the meaning of a SYNAGOGUE certain.

I join in and am TOLERATED because I back up what I say by the Bible. Where HEGELERS pipe in with THEY SAY such as the CHANELLERS at ACU "quoting" Martin Luther then I just have to join the DIALOG by saying: "No, everthing you say about Luther is taken from "scholarly books" written by scholars who STOLE from other "scholars" so the FIRST scholars wound ENDORSE the same lies quoted by the second to the hundrth "scholar." That is true because UNIVERSITIES don't care about TRUTH: they want you to SUPPORT their other liars and THEIR stolen once-Christian college.

Now, not may of you should be TEACHERS. I take that seriously and YOU get HEGELED back in return because YOU are a "BELIEVETH NOT" which Jesus identified as TREACHEROUS AND INFIDELS. The pseudo-clergy and "scholars" REJECTED the direct command of God thrugh John and the disciples of Jesus by NOT BEING BAPTIZED. That is the MARK of Christ, the Word and BAPTISM.

Music is without a doubt the MARK of the BEAST (Zoe etal.) CAIN means a MUSICAL NOTE. Cain's descendants were USED by Satan to form mixed sex choirs (teams), play instruments (without authority) and use sexual perversion to HOLD the fallen faithful captive in the dark valleys of CAIN where PAN (the perverted GOAT as the Revelation beast) had a more modern temple. The HORNS in revelation speak of MUSICAL INSTRUMENTS used by the MERRY BAND to CONFISCATE their own MOUNTAINS.

Ken, told by Jesus Christ to PREACH THE WORD beginning with Jeff.

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December 16 2003, 12:50 PM 

Mr. Ken,

After having read many of your posts on this website, I am beginning to get the following message:

Baptism baptism baptism baptism baptism baptism baptism baptism baptism baptism baptism baptism baptism baptism baptism instrumental music baptism baptism baptism baptism baptism.

Am I getting your message or not?

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Kenneth Sublett
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December 16 2003, 1:53 PM 

I CAN SAY, LOST, LOST, LOST, LOST, A BITTER WAIL: ALMOST BUT LOST, LOST, LOST WITHOUT BAPTISM. IT ISN'T ABOUT RELIGION or "churching" in the pagan sense: IT IS ABOUT RECRUITING BY GOD and TRAINING for the next step: You wouldn't be comfortable in the presence of the LIVING WORD or Pure Spirit which is Holy Spirit: not body to stroke.


And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them, Matthew 18:2

And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted,and become (be born) AS little children,
ye SHALL NOT enter into the kingdom of heaven. Matthew 18:3

EVERYONE knew that this meant BAPTISM. Both proselyte baptism and DISCIPLE baptism to James the Fine Fabric Fuller demanded washing: This like Christian baptism, MARKED OUT those who MIGHT be treacherous enough to steal the FABRIC MANUFACTURING PLANT.

Using weasel words about Baptism is a way to REFUSE to confess whether there is TREASON in the heart of the person trained in their own "infiltrate and divert" university to lie, cheat and steal.

Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mothers womb, and be born? John 3:4

The question is how can Nicodemus a grown man be BORN AGAIN. The new birth does not involve the physical birth. Therefore, to be born again is to be born of water which involves water baptism: we are born OUT of the water.

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, EXCEPT a man (already born of the flesh)

be born of WATER (H20) and of the SPIRIT,
.....he CANNOT ENTER into the kingdom of God. John 3:5

And there are three that bear witness in earth, the SPIRIT (the Word Jn 6:63), and the WATER, and the BLOOD: and these three agree in one. 1Jn.5:8

The spirit is the revealed Word of Christ (John 6:63)
That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of WATER by the word (SPIRIT), Ep.5:26

What shall we say of those who say that JESUS CANNOT SAVE by Max Lucado's "seeing creation and saying, 'wow'" CREED?

What part of SHALL NOT or CANNOT is so difficult to swallow? If I repeated the Word "as it has been taught" how can rational people define that as LEGALISTIC and JUDGMENTAL? They cannot unless they are trying to discredit the WOUNDED so that the HIRELINGS go free and self-justified.

This is the JUDAS COMPLEX: he indwelled with the UNHOLY spirit of the Devil would ATTEMPT to triumph over Jesus with MUSIC but he would fail. This was the hostile attack by the WARRIOR LEVITICAL MUSICIANS of the Jewish state.

Jesus has connected being CONVERTED to BEING BORN of water and the Spirit.

Palingenesia 1 [genesis] a being born again, new birth; used by Cic. of his restoration after exile:-- hence, in NTest.,1. the resurrection.

2. regeneration by BAPTISM.
....Anazogr-êsis , eos, hê, RESTORATION to life

Paul says that we are DEAD in sins, we must DIE to the sinful impulses, and we are MADE ALIVE in Jesus Christ. That meant when Jesus said it REGENERATION of the spirit making it A holy spirit.

Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. Rom 6:11

STILL DEAD, DEAD, DEAD, DEAD WITHOUT SPIRITUAL LIFE ONLY AT BAPTISM: the difference between heaven and hell. Don't blaspheme unless you are still LOST, LOST, LOST by minimizing baptism and calling God a Liar. Liars SPEAK ON THEIR OWN and are identified by Jesus as sons of the DEVIL.

That's it: poking fun is what is supposed to happen. The singy-clappy, hand waving (a sure MARK) SINGERS and MUSICIANS are servants of Lucifer or Zoe and they are trying as hard as their little infantile arms can wave to stand in the Holy Place to keep you from SEEING the Kingdom of God which "is within you." The ONLY place of worship, therefore, is WITHIN YOU. Jesus called the new PLACE the human SPIRIT where we meet God, the living Word as we commune, meditate or make melody with the Spirit "OF" Truth. Any of the noisey rituals are driven by SATAN who doesn't want to give you a microsecond alone with Christ in the SPIRIT. Not even in the Lord's Supper where we meet and remember Chrit who assembles with us to GRIEVE OUT a hymn lamenting the death of Christ and the fact that only a TINY REMNANT will shut their mouth to speak and listen IN THE HUMAN SPIRIT.

HEART, HEART, HEART, HEART OR SPIRIT, SPIRIT, SPIRIT the ONLY place God will even SEEK us to accept worship which in Paul's mind was to GIVE HEED to the Words of Christ in song and sermon. Wail, wail, that bitter wail you may be getting a running start just as the SATAN WORSHIPERS in Amos were dancing arount trying to bring down the DAY OF THE LORD which would, because of their irrevence invite God into their HEART but He is still a CONSUMING FIRE.


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December 16 2003, 3:43 PM 

Mr. Ken,

My point is not to minimize baptism at all. I am a Bible believing baptized member of Christ's body. I cherish my baptism and continually look back to that day that I was baptized. However, I was never taught that my baptism saved me. Now I know all of the verses that automatically pop up in your mind about baptism saving people. You know that the majority of the Christian world disagrees with this and historically, this has been the case as well.

My point is that when your focus is on baptism and NOT the Cross of Christ, something has been missed. I am not saying that you do not love the Cross of Christ, it just seems as if you are saying that there were two acts that saved you: Christ's death and your baptism.

If this is the case, then we do have a serious problem.

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January 5 2004, 11:28 PM 

Slight problem with your statement: "majority of the Christian world diagrees" with baptism saving you.
If you try to remember what the Bible says about Jesus. Most of the world in his time refuted him, but yet he was still right.
Also if you say baptism is not essential to your salvation then Jesus is a Lier.
I cannot and will not believe that of Jesus.


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Re: Saying, jeffy

October 6 2006, 1:01 PM 

I really appreciate sacred cows writings.
It's stunning how Mr Sublett ducks and dodges questions with the same old tired cliches that he believes works. My sources say he does not go to a church in Hohenwald Tennessee. Well, God bless him. I hope he spends as much time in prayer and study and daily reflection as he does arguing and pontificating.
Ken my friend, what would it look like if you used this energy and passion to go knocking on doors and sharing the love of Christ. I mean everybody seems to do it all wrong. But all I can see if you sitting there fussing and fuming but nobody seems to see you. Is this your idea of "go into all the world and spread the gospel" highlighting favorite scripture to people who know the Lord already. What about those that don't know the Lord. Is it your goal to get the church all fixed and fancy so THEN we can start evangalizing and doing it right and until then we need to go on and on. In the two minutes I've been writing somebody in Hohenwald perhaps died that you never met. Does that grieve you or are you itching to name call me and further mock this kind called Christian witness with your unkindness.

So you don't win people to the Lord all that often, huh.

You didn't need to answer. I already know.

Stay with him scared cow. I'm learning a lot as you walk into the temple speaking to the chief pharisee.

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Ken Sublett
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October 6 2006, 9:17 PM 

I did a pretty good job "preaching" to one in person yesterday and two more a bit less intense. I did one pretty long personal study today about the ROLE of elders and cult-like preachers plaguing the county.

I have counted in a long time but my guess is that I went 'into all the world' with maybe 10,000 looks just today. That yields a lot of short questions which I can handle easily.

One today with a request for a short summary of the APOLLO or APOLLYON and the MUSES now in the churches where the Apollo and all pagan gods were homosexual and the muses (musicians Rev 18:22) were filthy and dangerous prostitutes. I am doing some more for the MADISON thread where there is a lot which OUTS the ZOE (Lucifer) concept. That will agree with Jesus who quoted Isaiah and Ezekiel to define the MOUTH religion HYPOCRITES. Ezekiel identifies them as "speakers, singers and musicians."

Another one from France needing more info on the TERMINAL FALL because of Musical Idolatry at Mount Sinai: a good study so far.

I am fueling another men's study in Seattle with big time supply of material on Romans. And lots of smaller ones ALL DAY LONG with more hours than all of the Preacher you know who probably did dunkin donut preacher's conference today.

The Pharisees CHANGED and "improved" the law and religion so they could FLEECE widows. Since, I am not on the DOLE as a CORRUPTER (selling learning at retail) then I am neither, in the message of Peter, an adulterer or Pharisee. Can't be a Pharisee without being on the Dole and you cannot GET on the dole unless you can IMPROVE on Jesus. Can't be a HYPOCRITE unless you are a THEATRICAL PERFORMER in a religious sense. So, that leaves me out.
    Quintus Horatius Flaccus: Bad men, when they avoid certain vices, fall into their opposite extremes.

    The tribes of female flute-players,1 quacks, vagrants, mimics, blackguards;2 all this set is sorrowful and dejected on account of the death of the singer Tigellius; for he was liberal [toward them]. On the other hand, this man, dreading to be called a spendthrift, will not give a poor friend [5] wherewithal to keep off cold and pinching hunger.

All of these words point to the SORCERERS (Revelation 18) and to perverted PARASITES who would do ANYTHING to keep from honest work. Watch the Madison Thead. I have just begun some stuff on PSALLO that "homosexual, harp-plucking, young boy plucking" word or the WARFARE of Apollo. That is why Paul OUTLAWED all forms of singing (enchantment, witchcraft, sorcery) in the EXTERNAL SENSE. All of those PERFORMING ARTS define the meaning of DEMAGOGUE or TYRANT which points to CULT LEADERS: The Law of Giving makes the identity of a CULT absolute.

Remember this Pineyism which YOU cannot refute:

There is NO preacher and therefore NO preaching in the ekklesia or "school of Christ."

That means there is NO LAW OF PREACHING and means that there is NO LAW of listening to sick, silly sermonizing as an ACT of worship.

There is NO Law of Giving: Paul identified any kind of "coercion" such as his own presence as EXTORTION which is equated to adultery.

Therefore, the Theater for Holy entertainment by Sophists and Musicians is an UNFUNDED additon and you are a ROBBER for even hinting that people should pay for it.

There is NOT LAW of singing as an act of worship: we know from history that singing as an ACT of worship came about 400 years too late to be CHRISTIAN and about the same time preachers got on the DOLE from the State.

That is my RAW ASSERTION MANTRA and I intend to keep it up until I EXORCISE even more people of the GIVING DEMON and FREE them for the REST Jesus died to give which means STOP the preaching, stop the singing, stop the music stop it, stop it, stop it.

I CHARGE all such demonic beings in the name of Jesus Christ: begone! Out vile beasts. Don't go away mad JUST GO AWAY and quit your thieving HIDING of the Word of God.

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Mike Lewis
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The Problem with Lucifer...

December 16 2003, 4:53 PM 

One of the biggest discrepancies that is made with this site and is the use of Lucifer to refer to Satan when this is clearly a mistranslation by our friendly King James's the truth:

In Isaiah 14:12 we read the following in the KJV: "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning." The teaching that "Lucifer" is a name for "Satan" comes from the KJV. The Hebrew word here actually means "bright one," or "bringer of light." The word "lucifer" is simply the Latin translation of this Hebrew word. The mistake of the KJV translators was in not translating the Latin word into English. By leaving the Latin word in their version, the implication was left in the minds of a great many readers that it was a proper name. The text actually refers to King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon, although there may well be a secondary reference to Satan. The belief, mistakenly derived from the KJV's failure to translate this Latin word into English, that "Lucifer" is a proper name of the "prince of darkness" is so wide-spread that Webster's dictionary defines "Lucifer" as being another name for the being also known as "Satan."

So in actuality all the information about lucifer is wrong on this site since that's not a proper name for Satan. Amen and amen!

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...........................THE BOOK

What Happened At the Madison Church of Christ?

There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

To even start to understand whats happening here, you must read the background materials in the first of the book.

This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our web site;

Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)

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