I am a former Elder of a small Church in Central Indiana. I have figured out that I was probably forced from the Eldership because I would have opposed the Movement that is now in our Church. I would not have even become aware of what is going on were it not for some comments that were made to me by other members. I started putting 2 and 2 together and started researching the 21st Century Church. We now have a praise group which obstencibly was created to sing at funerals. Now they have had at least 1 "concert" at the church. "The Purpose Driven Life" is being taught in a Young adult class. There are no sermons pointing out sin and its consequences. Sermons for the past year have been only about love for one another and the inclusiveness of the Kingdom. There are several other indicators. I have already been called a troublemaker and my family seems to have bought the whole package. If a complete list is needed to carry on a dialog please let me know any help would be appreciated. Jim Ashley

I attend a congregation in Indianapolis, Indiana and see the movement of "contemporary worship" sweeping through our immediate brotherhood like a roaring lion, seeking whom it may devour. Many are going along just to get along. Why do we need to enhance worship service? I thought it was for the purpose of giving God the glory and praise. To enhance it means that it's in need of some bettering of sorts, which indicates that we are not pleased with it in some way. Again, worship service is just that... service rendered unto God for His pleasure. He has, in no way, expressed any displeasure in our worship to Him as he perscribed it in the New Testament. However, we now are displeased with it, as if it were for our entertainment. Very sad. I see so many congregations with Praise Teams now. What's next? The sad part is that most of them don't have elders. Now, I know that having elders doesn't make a congregation immune to problems, but if the men are truly qualified and worthy of their calling, it should serve as a line of defense as they watch and protect the flock. Like Pilate, most seem to be more interested in not being unpopular with the members than in protecting and lovingly guiding them.

My wife and I recently moved our membership to the Kingsley Terrace congregation in Indy and, during our search for a church home, were appauled at the lack of real choices out there. Many buildings with the name above the door, but that was all that resembled the church of Christ. A big problem in Indy is the number and recurrance of splits it has seen. A tree is known by the fruit it bears. Like begets like. A split will always lead to another split. We have waaaaaaaaaaaay too many congregations in Indy that are in existence just because Bro. X didn't get along with Bro. Y or fell out with the leaders at Z congregation so he found some members whose ears were itching and they "began a work". Why not humbly move your membership to another congregation and support the work there. Fight on. Remember, God has already promised us the victory.

Hi, I am also seeking others that want to work with me in restoring a church to what it should be, as close as possible. please respond to me and I will respond back. I would like to work closely with others trying to live as Christ wants us to live. I also know very much what both of you are saying. I myself have been guilty of leaving a congregation because I didn;t like what was going on, instead of staying there to try and help fix the situation. i am willing to try and fix a situation at a small near southside congregation, but it would require help and others to stand beside me in the church.

"To restore the church to what it should be?" "To live as Christ would want us to live?" These are "buzz phrases" for "Let's get the Church right in our image rather than God's"

Why don't we see what the Bible has to say and what God has to say and lay off of "what I WANT". You are no different than the ones you disagree with. You just disagree on what is "right" and what is wrong. Why don't you sit down with those that you disagree with and see what the disagreements are rather than trying to "get the church back to what it SHOULD be (in your eyes)".

And, pray tell, what "should it be"? 1950's style i am assuming?

JD

As you know we are all not perfect, I said that we needed to restore the Church to what it should be, What it should be is what Christ intended it to be and not anyone else. I don't even know what a 1950's style church would be since I wasn't born until 59. Also it is my intention to talk and try and work out these differences, I was merely looking for some assistance and guidance. What I want is immaterial , it is what Christ intended. I do not profess to know everything there is to know about the Bible, that is why I said as close as possible. What do you think Church is and what should the worship services be like? I do know that a service shouldn't be dead and that only negative things taught. Stop thinking that everyone is only wanting to make things their way and think that some are really trying to do what the Bible teaches. Maybe no one really knows what the worship service should be like. Did Christ ever say exactly how it should be conducted? If it is in the Bible word for word, please show us, share your thoughts on worship service and Christ' Church. What have you to say about this matter if you are wanting to serve God?

Calm down Brother.
JD is a change agent, he is assigned to this website to cause trouble, don't pay him any attention to him. After many years of fighting cc takeovers I have found that it is to be. Studying End Times you will see that it must be. Just don't fall into it. You may even try to pull your own family out of it and find yourself hated by them, but don't follow them into it. My father once told me "You just worry about getting yourself to heaven and everything else will fall into place." It is good advice, it is what Jesus told Peter in John 21:23.

To God be the Glory
Joe McKnight

JD uses the phrase "Let's get the church right in our
image rather than God's" to attack the remarks of Gene
Parsley. Let me get this straight: Are you suggesting that
using music that is blatantly worldly (but with Christian
lyrics) is in God's image? Is 1950's music (or older)
too out of date? What then about the Bible? Also too old
to be relevant? I am also amazed by your remark about
"what I want". The Hymns were already in place for many
years. Isn't CHANGING the music and worship to a new
format really all about "what I want"? I can appreciate
the desire to not present a stumbling block to
unbelievers. Therefore, certain cultural changes will
be warranted from time to time. But NEVER at the expense
of the preaching of the Gospel, NEVER by conforming our
worship to the image and ways of the world, and NEVER
by watering down the truth to make it more acceptable to
unbelievers! There are many church leaders who believe
changing the church to this "seeker sensitive" format is
the only way to reach the unchurched. This way of thinking is really missing the mark. It replaces God's
working in the church and in the hearts of men with
methods that rely on man's ability and efforts. Does man
have a role in salvation? Insomuch as God has given us a
free will and requires faith for salvation. We must
never forget that our free will alone can accomplish
nothing. (Nor can it accomplish anything for the sake of others) Were it not for God's work of salvation (Christ's
atoning death on the cross) and calling by His Holy
Spirit (drawing us unto Himself) we would have no role to
fulfill. It is God alone who draws men unto salvation,
not any method or gimmick. We are only to be obedient
by preaching the truth and planting the seed. Only God
can give the increase! I agree with you, brother Parsley. It IS time to restore the church to what it should be!

Well Kurt, Hymns were new and opposed as well at one time. What you label as "good enough for the times now" were once ridiculed as "to contemporary" at one time. In fact Stamps Baxter tunes were once "outlawed' by churches because they were too upbeat.

Music is completely relative. It is relative to the group singing it. I am sure that what I think is relative today as far as music goes is far too new for you and I am sure that what I think its relative today is far to old for someone else. It does not matter what the "beat" is, it ONLY matters if you mean what you sing. I LOVE some of the old hyms, but some I could do without. A balance is what is called for. Let's not throw the old completely out nor discard the new as "too contemporary". That has been done before and did not work.

This is an age-old discussion and will be had by our children. I am sure that in 20 years "Open The Eyes of My Heart" will be seen by my children as old and out-dated. We MUST be willing to have a mix.

JD

Can you believe it? We agree! I must admit there are
songs that are considered "contemporary" that are
beautiful and completely acceptable. Just as there are
old hymns that are really not correct theologically or
are more like a dirge than a hymn. I surely didn't mean
to throw the baby out with the bathwater! My point was
that the wholesale acceptance of CCM and the pragmatism
of the Church Growth Movement is not what we need to
reach people for Jesus. Following God's word and HIS
methods are what we need. Careful consideration needs
to be given to each song before we accept it for worship.
(Personal listening is an altogether different thing).
You make a good point that there has been controversy
surrounding worship music for years and there will be for
years to come. How awesome it will be when Jesus comes
back and shows ALL of us what TRUE worship is like!!
I guarantee BOTH camps will be in for a few surprises!!
I must make one point for your consideration: you said
"music is completely relative". On this I must disagree.
While musical notes and concepts may be just that: notes
and concepts, that does not mean all musical STYLES are
merely relative. To quote Dan Lucarini from his book
"Why I Left The Contemporary Christian Music Movement":
"All musical STYLES have a moral dimension because they
are so easily and unavoidably associated with some
worldly attachment". (emphasis mine) "Christian" heavy
metal, for example, would be a STYLE almost everyone
would agree is completely unacceptable for worship. (This is of course an extreme example). I enjoyed
reading your response, and I will leave you with something
from my faith I firmly believe in: "In essentials, unity;
in non-essentials, liberty; in all things, charity". It's
good for us to sharpen each other like this, while
always agreeing to disagree. In Christian love, Kurt Bowers.

Churches objected to the "upbeat" because they knew that HERESY means to LIFT PEOPLE up and take them away for your own purposes by SPIRITUAL EXCITEMENT or Anxiety. They also objected because the VOODOO BEAT which moves MOST "religious hymns" showed contempt for the APPROVED EXAMPLE of Jesus and the direct command of Paul and the approved examples of the church for hundreds of years. Human compositions and "liturgical singers" was considered "one of the first heresies largely pervading the church." Heresy does not mean to make a choice and leave: it means to make a choice and steal the church property. The GREEK WAY was to get everyone EXHALTED or raised up with ODEING to make it easier to CARRY THEM AWAY. The claim was that mystical musicians could blow their pipes and make the STONES of a temple dance into place WITHOUT EFFORT.

Part of the MANTRA of a few truly ignorant "scholars" stealing church houses from widows so "WE CAN SAVE MORE SOULS" is that non-instrumental churches of Christ became a SECTARIAN group of HERETICS because they refused to BEGIN to do what they had NEVER DONE for 1850 years. If I decide to house my BULL in your living room and YOU have the audacity to RESIST or tell others that this is WRONG, why those who have INVENTED a new Bible and new basic ethic would spend a quarter million dollars in one year to bring you to Nashville to convince the world that YOU are going to hell for objecting.

However, the PEOPLE who steal your property and destroy your accord for the rest of your shortened life are the SECTARIANS and HERETICS because they CHOOSE TO LIFT UP YOUR PROPERTY and put it in their BANK ACCOUNT. But, they have, in Rubel Shelly's words., PARTNERED WITH GOD and what they are doing is endorsed by the HOLY SPIRIT who to them for the first time in history is part of a COMMITTEE or FAMILY OF GODS or three separate persons or people. The SPIRIT person gives them the authority to reject the SON god (S.U.N. god Re Shelly) and HEAR the voice AUDIBLY and must be telling them that stealing is now ok. Where these PARASITE TEAMS have burst in on peacable churches you have a massed-group guilty of a terminal sin. That is why they thrash around so much and hiss when you quote the Bible. The word heresy or sectarian is:

Haireô or heresy has as its A meaning A take with the hand, grasp, seize, having taken up [the song],

II. take, get into one's power, hupnos passions. As in the ZOE MOVEMENT:

2. catch, take, zôon (Zoe), take in hunting, get into one's power, entrap, In a legal sense: kleptonta to convict of theft,

You do know that Jesus died to eleminate "spiritual anxiety created by religious ritual" and that ANXIETY is AEIRO for the purposes of kleptô as in kleptomaniac by the use of secular HYMNING and ODING and playing the KITHERA which made them PARASITES and CYNICS or DOGS--always.

The word AEIRO has the same basic meaning of:

Anaireô (v. haireô): --take up, anelontes apo chthonos having raised the victim from the ground, so as to cut its throat This had some connection to Amos 5 and 6 where the musical, perverted festivals were "feasts WITH and FOR dead ancestors."

2. take up and carry off, bear away, esp. prizes

II. make away with, destroy, of men, kill

That had a relationship both to human murder and animal sacrifices. That is why the SINGERS and MUSICIANS who mocked types of Jesus Christ and also mocked Him on the way to the cross were called PARASITES. They lived off the slaughter of innocent lives.

Aeirô to lift for the purpose of carrying, to bear away, carry, to raise, to bear away to undertake a long war, to be lifted up, excited. Similar word: PASSIONto exalt, excite, exaggerate, to take up for ONESELF, receive a charge of cowardice.

MOST of the concept words in the Bible give God's definition and POINT to Greek words which define SATAN'S world. For instance, Charis or Grace was the "mother" of Charismatic (musical) worship. Charismatic points directly to sodomy in the form of pederasty. Sure, all known "hoods" and "crafts" have their apprentices to be USED or even ABUSED. The Word

Humn-eô other than inspired by the Spirit of Christ. Hymning uising secular songs (the blue book) has the meaning of:

Batto-logeô = battarizô, speak stammeringly, say the same thing over and over again, Ev.Matt.6.7

Parodia ae, f., = parôidia (a counter-song), a reply retaining nearly the same words or the same turn, a parody

Aeidô is the musical METHOD and Aeirô or heresy is the REASON to lift people up with excitement like WIND IN THE SAILS to carry them away captive or to kill them. By letting yourself be LIFTED UP with PLEASURING you are doing what Paul said that Christ WOULD NOT DO because it carried the concept of the dogs or Cynics getting virtual or literal PLEASURE out of abusing one another.

I. to sing, Il., etc.:--then of any sound, to twang, of the bowstring, Od.; to whistle, of the wind, Mosch.; to ring, of a stone struck, Theocr.

To STOP that Paul said that the DIVERSE people could have UNITY if they went to the Synagogue of Christ. The ONLY WAY to glorify God would be to use ONE MIND and ONE MOUTH to speak "that which is written." Now you know why so many want to restore the pagan "worship center" and cannot hear the Words of Christ which are SPIRIT and LIFE to the baptized believr.

The singers and musicians were the TETTIX or the LOCUST of Revelation. They are the MUSES (always female) under the command of Apollo or Abaddon or Apollyon. They will attempt to make a SPECTACLE out of Jesus by PRETENDING to be Him. The word which describes the musical paganism is PLAY. These include the following and dozens of other PAGAN CONCEPTS which the Bible POINTS to. Grace is a brown eyed Greek and you don't want to MAKE MUSIC with her. The Grace-Centered concept of Bible rejecters may say more than then want to say.

Theatrizô 1 2 [theatron] to bring on the stage:-- Pass. to be made a show of, a gazing-stock, NTest.

The perverted song and dance or PLAY at Mount Sinai was called a LAUGHING STOCK by God.

Sophis-tiaô , play the sophist. The OPHIS or serpent in Revelation so named because he or she is so enchanting that we cannot take our GAZE off them. It means watching something like an execution where the criminal has all of the attention and feels superior. The theatrical performers who set out to TAKE CAPTIVE the church confess that musical or theatrical performers both ATTRACT and REPULSE people. Sure, you know that normal people never make it BIG TIME. The researchers and Willow Creek confess that it "takes a lot of strife" for the abnormal to MAKE a place for themselves in the MAINSTREAM. The fact that they are WILLING proves that they are anti-Christs. And we can prove with lots of evidence that the BEAST uses the 'Little Horns' or pan pipes or musicians to do a hostile takeover of their own little kingdom or HILL for a VERY SHORT TIME.

Kunaô, = kunizô, play the Cynic. The DOGS grouped with the SORCERERS were the singing, dancing and playing priests of CYBELE. They were emasculated or even sex changed to facilitate their function in the "HOODS" and "CRAFTS." "Music" imposed as worship always sends a cold chill up the backs of about half even though they don't know the "spirit" which has swept over them and making them flee. Job felt a "spirit" pass him and it made his hair stand on end. Test the "spirits" most are foul.

The "personae" has not changed from the garden of Eden onward where Lucifer, the "singing and harp-playing prostitute got to both Eve and then with her help to old Adam

Kumbal-izô, play the cymbals, [In Hebrew cymbals are locusts]

Drakizô, play the buffoon, as the DRAGON or SERPENT in Revelation.

THESE are the things the 'MUSICIANS' and their Apollo handlers DO NOT WANT you to know. That is why they get your money to make you STUDENTS of the Bible and turn the "classroom" into what the Vineyard (aka wineskiners) call a HOLY TAVERN but also confess (C.Wimber) that it is for a holy brothel: "Singers were always known to be the HAREM of the gods."

Muses, musicians, melodia, cantus, heresy, aeiro, oding, hymning, locust people rejoice and be glad: you have been prophesied about by God in the Bible. The evidence seems clear as confessed by Jesus Christ that by "speaking on your own" you are the spirits of fallen angels who followed Lucifer (Zoe) in trying to BLEED OFF some of the worship due ONLY to God. We worship whatever we GIVE HEED TO. And that doesn't take a Phd to figure out. If you WANT the attention, GET the attention and ENJOY the attention you are part of the archaic (some say pre-re creation) enemies of Christ by claiming to be the SUPERIOR SISTER to Christ.

The notion of the NEW STYLE MUSIC is part of postmodernism. They confess that they need to throw you into schizophrenia to make you hate your old brethren. Then they can rebuild you in their own image and get more sexual joy out of watching you PERFORM than you can imagine. However, postmodernism is WELL KNOWN to return to the ARCHAIC when their faith CRACKS AWAY. Therefore, the Bible identifies them as OF OLD preserved in hell to be aroused as MUSES or LOCUSTS by the fallen (having fallen) Star, Abaddon or Apollyon, to whom God TURNED ISRAEL OVER when they engaged in MUSICAL, PERVERTED "WORSHIP." God saw their ACTIONS as a prayer to return to STAR worship and answered their prayer. The key figure was Venus (Zoe, Lucifer) and Chiun or Saturn whose Chaldee number is 666.

You can babble all day but 100% of the evidence proves this fact. God's Word points to the CULTURE in which it was written. The agents of Apollo want to REWRITE in based on OUR culture. But that proves insanity but the MENTALLY, EMOTIONALLY and SEXUALLY ABNORMAL were the "priestcraft" from earliest times.

The word REST used by Jesus is one of the POINTERS. Let me explain the idea of a pointer. When we use words they have MEANING. Not too difficult! When Jesus or Paul used a word they POINTED to the meanings understood in the dictionaries and lexicons of that day (however simple). The LADED BURDEN was "spiritual anxiety created by religious rituals." Jesus did not prescribe any religious rituals because they are BURDENS and destroy faith in God's power to save. "Music" has always been the most powerful producer of anxiety because Nimrod knew that you could DISABLE people with the "musical worship team" he led around (always female, for heaven's sake). REST, on the other hand means STOP IT including performance preachers, singers and musicians. I will prove it to anyone who STILL HAS EARS. Judas whose JUDAS BAG carried his reeds of mouthpieces of wind instruments may have thought that he was a normal human also. But, Psalm 41 prophesied that Judas WOULD NOT triumph over Messiah meaning "to play instruments and make a joyful noise before the lord" because that was the Levite's WARRIOR or PANIC "music." Isn't it interesting that (also) the MARK of Satan's indwelling the musicians was also preceding by making the lord's Supper into the perverted Agape eating the bread with "pork" still in their teeth. I say they HAVE hung themselves but have not rotted sufficiently to fall and burst asunder. The proof or MARK is that a disciple of Christ (baptized) would INSIST on learning more and more. But, ancient writings such as Jubilees and the Books of Enoch make it clear that THERE IS NO ROOM FOR REPENTANCE for those who have fallen from grace. The PATTERNISM was they went radical and violent trying to force more and more people "off God's holy mountain in the presence of the Living Word" and down into the darkness of Cainites, Kenites, Canaanites or the clergy Jews whom Jesus denied were Israelites at all.

You need to gradually ask "are you gay?" I watched Pastor Jeremiah's DRAMA team this morning and assuredly the beaded "professional" made you gag with his speech patterns. You can spread the message and it will not be a rumor that history KNOWS NO EXCEPTION to the fact that you will be having gay marriages and "pastors." Karen Armstrong in The History of God notes that the effeminates of Amos' writings "could not bear to enter into DIALOG with God." That is a MARK.

Ken

what ever happened at Church in Central Indiana