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Ken Sublett
(no login)
63.84.81.27

speak TRUTH.

April 25 2005, 4:28 PM 

I am in the business of telling people the facts: If you want to make love then go watch the singy-clappy girls next Sunday. JUST LOVOOVEEE is just a LIEEEEE.

There is only SELF LOVE when performance preachers and THEATRICAL PERFORMERS ACT UP right there in the "Holy Place."

If you were my mother I probably would EAT her soap: made of pig lard and lie. My mother would know enough not to tolerate one of her three girls PERFORMING PUBLICALLY and pretending to lead the worshipers into the presence of God. As an organist and guitar player my mother could not abide the music AS WORSHIP in my dad's Methodist church and returned to be a Campbellite where LOVE

Musical instruments WERE idols and Homes of The Gods: Even David tried to AWAKEN his lyre so that he could awaken the dawn.
    Hab 2:19 Woe unto him that saith to the wood, Awake; to the dumb stone, Arise, it shall teach Behold, it is laid over with gold and silver, and there is no breath at all in the midst of it.

    Hab 2:20 But the Lord is in his holy temple: let all the earth keep silence before him.

The preachers make fun of Adab and Abihu but Paul referred to rejecting God's commandments:
    Heb 12:27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.

    Heb 12:28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:

    Heb 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.

If there is NO EXCEPTION to the rule that singers and instrumentalists in religion were ALWAYS pretending to be THE HAREM OF THE GODS" then it is LOVE to warn the audience because the PERFORMERS have been marked based on the Book of Enoch. When you accept worship as the king/queen of Babylon who went into hell to rot on a bed of maggots and be consumed with his/her harps and harpists" then WORMS or MAGGOTS will consume you.

Ken

 
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Ken Sublett
(no login)
63.84.81.27

CONTEXT.

April 25 2005, 5:56 PM 

God didn't NEED to change His Mind because YOU cannot find ONE EXAMPLE in the Bible involving "congregational singing with instrumental accompaniment." I told you that Jesus CAST OUT the musical minstrels from His healing presence as one CASTS OUT DUNG because the musicians such as flute-girls were under the control of the person who regulated PRACTICES and PRICES, the cemetary and the DUNG HEAP.

Sorry, Kim but you are pulling verses out of context: you need to read the whole story. But singing, clapping and playing instruments along with performance preaching INTENDS to silence the WORD of God: that is the meaning of many instrumental passages.

Psallo means to PLUCK with the fingers and NOT WITH A PLECTRUM. It applies only to PLUCKED bow strings or lyre strings: both done by our Abaddon or Apollyon who was, like Lucifer, always equipped with both war and music devices.

ONE writer first used PSALLO to mean pluck the harp string meaning to YANK. Therefore, there is NO dictionary for PSALLO: you have to go to the original literature. Your writers HAVE NOT investigated the literature I HAVE and I have posted the important stuff. You cannot use PSALLO to play a guitar with a pick, blow a flute (to pollute or prostitute), beat a drum or cymbal. The word LITERALLY OUTLAWS and is a DIRECT COMMAND against MAKING MUSIC.

NO Hebrew or Greek word means to PLAY A MUSICAL INSTRUMENT. If you are singing then ALL Bible passages identify three things:

1. The word sing often means that it CAN be played. By definition a SONG is metrical and can be played.

2. You need the word PLUCK or PLAY: this COULD mean pluck a bow string, pluck a harp string, pluck a hair off the head, pluck a chalk line or pluck a hair which was REQUIRED by the male instrumentalists as PRETEND females.

3. Finally, you need to define THE TYPE OF INSTRUMENT if you are going to pluck a harp string which made more noise than music. Melody would be about three or four notes in a sequence and PROHIBITS harmony. EXAMPLE of melody. Note that verse 16 DEFINES singing AS A PROSTITUTE:
    And it shall come to pass in that day, that Tyre [Lucifer=Zoe] shall be forgotten seventy years, according to the days of one king: after the end of seventy years shall Tyre sing as an harlot. Isa 23:15

    WHICH GOES: Take an 1. harp, go about the city, thou harlot that hast been forgotten; 2. make sweet MELODY, 3. SING many songs, that thou mayest be remembered. Isa 23:16

There is NO example in the published Greek Literature which uses PSALLO to mean PLUCK as in plucking harp strings which does not DIRECTLY connect it to a homosexual grooming a young boy. Philip chided Alexander the Great saying that no respectable man should be able to PSALLO the harp so well. That is because it was reserved for prostitutes or sodomites in religious festivals.

The resulting SOUND is a TWANGING or sound which with the BOW intended to GRIND YOU INTO BITS: that is the BASE meaning of Psallo. It has the same BASE meaning of the SOP Jesus hand ground for Judas and SIGNALED that Satan would come into him. It WAS prophesied that Judas would try to silence Jesus with MUSIC!

SEE WHY PAUL COMMANDED THAT THE MELODY BE IN THE HEART. If he had wanted to included a harp he would have used the word PSALMODIA which I can assure you no college professor writing "dictionaries" would know about.

Aristotle noted that when people run out of productive work, pride often causes them to turn to music.
    Moreover the flute is not a moralizing but rather an exciting influence, so that it ought to be used for occasions of the kind at which attendance has the effect of purification [charismatic madness by Apollo or Abaddon] rather than INSTRUCTIONS

      Chalal (h2490) to break (one's word), to begin (as if by an "opening wedge"); denom. (from 2485) to play (the flute): defile, * break, defile, take inheritance, pipe, player on instruments, pollute, (cast as) profane (self), prostitute,slay (slain), sorrow, stain, wound.
David's PRAISE word gave rise to the word LUCIFER who was CAST AS PROFANE out of heaven and wholly seduced Eve in the garden of Eden with HER pipes and tabrets.
    And let us add that the flute happens to possess the additional property telling against its use in education that playing it prevents the employment of speech. Hence former ages rightly rejected its use by the young and the free, although at first they had employed it.

    For as they came to have more leisure because of their wealth and grew more high-spirited and valorous, both at a still earlier date and because after the Persian Wars they were filled with pride as a result of their achievements

    A wealthy citizen (choregus) who undertook the duty of equipping and training a chorus for a religious celebration (especially the production of a drama at Athens)

    usually had an assistant of LOWER station to supply the instrumental music. [Note: When the Jews in 1815 added the first instruments to compete with the Christians, they quite naturally hired Gentile musicians]

Women who were public singers and players were universally prostitutes. It is well document that MALES who did so were DRUNK or EFFEMINATE. That has always been the PERSONA and reputation of public musicians.

GREGORY OF NYSSA (died c394)
    8 . Now since man is a rational [spiritual] animal,

    the instrument of his body must be made suitable for the use of REASON;
      as you may see musicians producing their music according to the form of their instruments,
      and not piping with harps nor harping upon flutes,

    so it must needs be that the organization of these instruments of OURS should be adapted for reason,
      that when struck by the VOCAL ORGANS it might be able to sound properly for the use of WORDS. [Paul commanded SPEAK]

    2. And as some skilled musician, who may have been deprived by some affection of his own voice, and yet wish to make his skill known,
      might MAKE MELODY with VOICES of others,
      and publish his art by the aid of flutes or of the lyre,

    so also the HUMAN MIND [spirit] being a discoverer of all sorts of conceptions, seeing that it is unable, by the mere soul, to reveal to those who hear by bodily senses the motions of its understanding, touches, [plucks] like some skillful composer,
      these animated instruments, and makes known its hidden thoughts by means of the sound produced upon them.
If you will remember Psalm 150: the INSTRUMENTS were only those which HAD BREATH.
God gave us the HARPS OF GOD so that we can OFFER the sacrifice of the fruit of the LIPS. This writer and PAUL defines the PSALLOING or MAKING MELODY with the voice and in the HEART.

You are seeking justification for what you are doing 'SPITE OF HELL but you repudiate the Bible and ALL of church history. The early introduction of instruments DID NOT accompany instrumental music because EVERYONE knew better.

 
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Anonymous
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68.156.159.10

Re: speak TRUTH.

April 26 2005, 12:10 PM 

What gutter is your mind in that you can manage to twist a person's worship into something sexual? Am I understanding what you are trying to imply correctly?....Are you calling me a prostitute if I choose to clap along with a song?

 
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Ken Sublett
(no login)
63.84.81.6

SPEAK TRUTH: truth hurt before heal.

April 26 2005, 9:27 PM 

None of Biblical hand clapping has to do with "worship in praise to God."

Caphaq (h5606) saw-fak'; or saphaq (1 Kings 20:10; Job 27:23; Isa. 2:6), saw-fak'; a prim. root; to clap the hands (in token of compact, derision, grief, indignation or punishment); by impl. of satisfaction, to be enough; by impl. of excess, to vomit: - clap, smite, strike, suffice, wallow
    And Balaks anger was kindled against Balaam, and he smote his hands together: and Balak said unto Balaam, I called thee to curse mine enemies, and, behold, thou hast altogether blessed them these three times. Nu.24:10

    Men shall clap their hands at him, and shall hiss him out of his place. Jb.27:23

      For he addeth rebellion unto his sin, he clappeth his hands among us, and multiplieth his words against God. Jb.34:37

    Therefore thou hast forsaken thy people the house of Jacob, because they be replenished from the east, and are soothsayers like the Philistines, and they please themselves in the children of strangers. Is.2:6

      Make ye him drunken; for he magnified himself against the Lord: Moab also shall wallow in his vomit, and he also shall be in derision. Je.48:26

    All that pass by clap their hands at thee; they hiss and wag their head at the daughter of Jerusalem, saying, Is this the city that men call The perfection of beauty, The joy of the whole earth? Lam.2:15

      And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. Re.11:8
Connected to Rising Up To Play in Musical Idolatry:
    And they rose up early on the morrow, and offered burnt offerings, and brought peace offerings; and the people sat down to eat and to drink, and rose up to play. Ex.32:6

      Cachaq (h6711) tsaw-khak'; a prim. root; to laugh outright (in merriment or scorn); by impl. to sport: - laugh, mock, play, make sport.

    And it came to pass, when their hearts were merry, that they said, Call for Samson, that he may make us sport (h7832) . And they called for Samson out of the prison house; and he made them sport (h6711) : and they set him between the pillars. Jud.16:25

      Sachaq (h7832) saw-khak'; a prim. root; to laugh (in pleasure or detraction); by impl. to play: - deride, have in derision, laugh, make merry, mock (-er), play, rejoice, (laugh to) scorn, be in (make) sport.

    And David and all the house of Israel played (h7832) before the Lord on all manner of instruments made of fir wood, even on harps, and on psalteries, and on timbrels, and on cornets, and on cymbals. 2S.6:5

      Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play. 1 Co.10:7
This is certainly not talking about praise or worship nor in the context of music. You will notice that David stripped off with the following girls and claimed that he was honored in their eyes and he would make himself even more vile. His praise meant to make a fool of himself with the girls.

100% Image: judge yourself.



Jesus CAST OUT the musical minstrels (always men or perverted males) as one FLINGS OUT DUNG. Just as Lucifer (Zoe) was CAST AS PROFANE OUT OF HEAVEN with a word meaning to "play the flute, steal other's inheritance, pollute or prostitute."

Worship means to GIVE HEED TO. All theatrical performers say WATCH ME and if female you are violating Paul's direct command against exercising AUTHORITY which is AUTHENTIA which is erotic and murderous. SILENT in church also means SEDENTARY or you INTEND to display yourself. It is self-evident.

That is why you DRIVE OUT the spiritually mature INTENTIONALLY.

 
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B
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65.71.152.113

You can't have it both ways.

April 28 2005, 12:50 AM 

You can't deny the OT passages when it comes to instrumental music but use them for your hand-clapping arguments.

I'm a firm believer in a capella singing, but I think your connection of everything to Lucifer, Zoe and something sexual is nonsensical.

 
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Ken Sublett
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63.84.81.52

You just watch me!

April 28 2005, 11:20 AM 

There is just one way: the same OLD TESTAMENT use of music is condemned for the same reason that HAND CLAPPING was condemned: both are MARKS of people who HISS and BOO God's word off the state.

There is NO connection between MUSIC and WORSHIP which has ALWAYS been in the human mind or spirit. Literally it means to fall on your face. The people's congregation was PUT OUT of the precincts which were SACRED to the temple state when the LOUD music was to SIGNAL them to fall on their face even outside the gates. The music was also called SERVICE which means HARD BONDAGE. They served the PRIESTS and not God. They made a great crashing noise--not music--to help the priests survive the slaughter of tens of thousands of innocent LAMBS which were substitutes for GOD.

The church in the wilderness or Qahal or synagogue was the ONLY assembly of the people. The purpose was for INSTRUCTION. Therefore, God OUTLAWED the triumph over which was playing intruments and making a joyful noise before the Lord. This was NOT worship but the warrior's BATTLE CRY as seen in ALL of the instrumental psalms.

Hand clapping was a sign of DERISION because it MOCKED the looser rather than applauded the winner. That message continued into the Greek language. That has NEVER changed and neither has the MEANING of music as a MARK of a polluted religionism repudiating worship in the NEW PLACE of the human spirit.

I can use the Old Testament to INFORM me as to why Jesus "cast out the musical minstrels" more or less violently as one EJECTS DUNG. I can use ANIMAL SACRIFICES to prove just why Jesus ejected the musical minstrels. I can use the king/queen of Tyre as a model of LUCIFER the "singing and harp playing prostitute" who wholly seduced Eve. I can hear Paul call that a SEXUAL seduction and she did not EAT an apple from the MIDST of the Assyrian as the TALLEST TREE in Eden. I can read that CAIN means a MUSICAL NOTE and hear the New Testament say that "Cain was OF that evil one."

Get the point: the Old Testament is CHAPTER ONE which defines the FAILURE always MARKED by musical seduction as FOR MY LEARNING so that I don't RISE UP TO PLAY (1 Cor 10) where Paul points to MUSICAL IDOLATRY at Mount Sinai.

I can read Psalm 41 and hear God prophesy that JUDAS would try to DEFEAT Jesus with the same ALARM or TRIUMPH OVER which God OUTLAWED for the synagogue. This was so profound an instruction that the synagogue existed from the wilderness onward and NEVER sunk to singing or playing instruments when they were LISTENING to the words of a Holy God. That changed in 1815 by a liberal German Rabbi who sowed discord BEFORE it happened by the SECTARIAN and LEGALISTIC Stoneites.

Being marginally as smart as an earthworm, these EXAMPLES help me not make the SAME mistake. Applause STILL brings shame on all of those in second and third place. Even those who cannot peddle songs or sermons are APPLAUDED in heaven when we are baptized INTO Christ.

Ken

 
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Anonymous
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205.188.116.204

Re: You just watch me!

April 29 2005, 8:05 PM 

I am so confused as to how you know when to refer to what is written in the old testament and when it is not applicable. It is to confusing and I do not believe that God is a God of confusion. The Devil is the master behind confusion. I throw my hands up as I am not a Bible scholar and most Christians I know are not bible scholars. I Believe in Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior and that there is a higher power who ultimately is the final judge and knows where my heart is, also the forgivenses of my sins thru the blood of Christ and knowing that God loves me and meets me where I am about sums it up for me. You are taking way to much out of context and adding your own interpritation where it suits your cause. Unless you have sat face to face whith God and He has told you all of this I think you are a fraud and giving christianity a bad wrap. But you will in the end meet your maker and have to explain your design. I am so glad I m not in your shoes.

 
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kimberly
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152.163.100.68

Re: You just watch me!

April 30 2005, 3:51 PM 

for in all things we are more than conquerers through Him who loved us.
for I am sure that neither death, nor life, not angels, nor principalities, nor things present, not things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord."
Romans 8 verses 37 - 39.


 
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seekingtopleaseGodonly
(Login seekingtopleaseGodonly)
70.240.80.29

Instrumental music in the Church? Let God tell us how to worship God!

May 1 2005, 10:59 PM 

Instrumental music in the Church? Let God tell us how to worship God!

God’s Word makes it plain and simple on how God requires us to worship him.

The first thing that you must know when it comes to the subject of God, and what is appropriate in our worship service to God, is that your opinion means absolutely nothing in the eyes of God. Peter tried to give his opinion once on how God’s business should be conducted but then God himself spoke out and set the record straight on who we should be listening to if we want to please God:


M't:17:4: Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias;

M't:17:5: While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.



If you are going to speak on the subject of what God would have us do, you would be wise to back it up with book, chapter and verse; use God’s word. If not, it would be best to just keep your worthless opinions to yourself:


1Pe:4:11: If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

That could not be stated any clearer; could it?

Be very careful how you handle God’s business. We are not the authority on how things should be done.

We can only follow instructions and the examples of the early Christians.

Ac:2:41: Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
Ac:2:42: And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers
2Th:2:15: Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
Eph:4:14: That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
1Tm:4:1: Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2Tm:4:3: For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;



Now that we got that fact established, let us see how musical instruments fit into God’s instructions for worship.


(There is not even one example of an early Chistian using a mechanical instrument in a worship service to God for us to follow. This ommission of mechanical instruments in early Church worship service did not occur by accident or mistake. God does not make mistakes. If it would have been included as an example to all Christians to follow then it would have contradicted the next bible fact.)


God is not to be worshiped with hands.


Ac:17:24: God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
Ac:17:25: Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;


And before you start using your feet, toes, knees, elbows, or some other creative way to play musical instruments in order to worship God, just keep in mind that Jesus said: "God is a spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth."


Joh:4:23: But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
Joh:4:24: God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.



This question goes out to those who are sincerely seeking to please God. It is not addressed to those of you who do not love and respect the Word of God. It is not addressed to those who could not care less about how God has instructed us to worship him, and are more concerned with the self gratification they get from being entertained. It is not addressed to those who only seek fame and praise from the audience of the Church. No, this question is not for you if you are in the later categories, because you are not spiritually ready for it. (You can decide which category you are in.)

This question is for those who only want to "get it right" when it comes to God; It is for those of us who want to be ready when we stand before the Lord in the Day of Judgment.

The question is:

If God is not to be worshiped with "men’s hands" (and the key word is worshiped),and if God is a spirit and must be worshiped in spirit and truth, can a Christian justify playing a guitar, piano, or any other instrument in order to worship God???


Heb:13:15: By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name.
Eph:5:19: Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;
Heb:2:12: Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.
Col:3:16: Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.


Let all things be done for the edification of the saints.

1Co:14:26: How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.


Some people think that playing an instrument for the church would edify the members of the church just as much as singing, preaching, and praying.

It is biblically impossible for the plucking or playing of a mechanical instrument to edify a Christian on the level of singing, preaching or praying. A mechanical instrument can appeal to the carnal side of man/woman but can never be considered spiritual edification.

The Greek words for edify (edify means ‘to make understand or enlighten; inform, educate, instruct, improve; teach’) are Oikodomeo/Oikodome and they are defined as the systematic building, constructing, and confirming of someone or something.

On a spiritual level, when a person is edified they are educated, instructed, and enlightened by another person through the preached word, song, prayer, or kind word of encouragement. When a person edifies another they build them up or make them feel replenished spiritually.

A mechanical instrument cannot sing, preach, or pray, therefore it cannot edify anyone on a spiritual level. Many men and women have been built up (edified) through the preached Word, song, and prayer. We have no earthly New Testament example of any Christian in the Bible being spiritually edified through a mechanical instrument.

Last but not least, there was no Old Testament Church for us to follow the examples of and we are not under the Law of Moses. Christ nailed that law to the Cross.

Col:2:13: And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
Col:2:14: Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;


So there you have it.

Let’s recap the biblical facts:

1. God does not need, want, or even value our opinions on how to worship him. We are instructed to hear his beloved Son.
2. If we are to speak, let us speak as the oracles of God.
3. We are to continue steadfastly in the doctrine and tradition of the early Christians.
4. God is not to be worshipped with the hands of men.
5. God is a spirit, and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
6. We are instructed to teach and admonish one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.
7. All things should be done for the edification of the Church.
8. Mechanical Instruments can not edify anyone.
9. We are not commanded to follow the worship examples of an Old Testament Church; there never was one.


We should let God tell us how to worship God.

Lu:4:4: And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.

Any questions?




In Jesus'name.












 
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Kimberly
(no login)
152.163.100.68

Re: Instrumental music in the Church? Let God tell us how to worship God!

May 2 2005, 12:33 PM 

1Pe:4:11: If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.


And to those he gives the gift of talent to play a musical instrument . that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

I do not have a good voice. In fact it is terrible. I also have no talent in playing a musical instrument. I do have a gift of dance and if I use it to glorify God .... if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth:


Using your references.


2Th:2:15: Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
Well we have all been taught many different traditions sir, so if it is in your heart not to use instruments then by all means you should not. You should not judge those of us that see it differently.

So did your church magically appear or was it constructed by the hands of men?
Ac:17:24: God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands

Not one of you has addressed the definition of Psalms. Look it up and let me know what you find and how you justify it.

Let all things be done unto edifying.
The Greek words for edify (edify means ‘to make understand or enlighten; inform, educate, instruct, improve; teach’) are Oikodomeo/Oikodome and they are defined as the systematic building, constructing, and confirming of someone or something.


You forgot part of the definition when you went on to explain this. Music can improve worship especially for those of us that cannot sing Music is also a universal language and when you have people in your congregation that are learning english, it informs and teaches to them as well.

You are so closed minded. On Sunday we did not use instruments due to reason other then yours, and it caused me to ponder. Not just anyone can get up there and play instruments, as well as not just anyone can afford them to learn on them. They are also big and cumbersome to carry at times. So maybe there were other reasons the early church did not mention the use of instruments as you seem to think, (Psalms are mentioned repeatedly but no one wants to address the definition) Maybe there was no mention because if God made it mandatory there would be many people who would feel left out because there was no one in there small church who could play. Come on people you are making this a salvation issue? Your language and the hatefulness in your hearts would concern me more if I were you.

Also none has given me any bible reference to the use of tuning forks, individual communion cups, pews, alters, ect... that you seem to find ok in your worship but are not mentioned anywhere in the bible. Help me understand this.

Also no one has addressed the definition of the word Psalms found thru out the new testament.
You are picking and choosing and even omitting yet critiizing others and even condemning them to hell for it.

Matter of fact nothing has been addressed from my earlier letter .


My God is an awesome God

Kimberly

 
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Chris
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70.104.118.41

Yes! Let God tell us how to worship

May 3 2005, 6:10 AM 

Hello, brothers and sisters. I'm going through similar persecution at my church in Tecumseh, MI so I hope you don't mind if I interject.
The greek definition of the word psalm is psalmos meaning "song sung to the harp". Psalmos is also the derivative of the Greek word "psallein" which means "to pluck play the harp."
Our God encouraged this in Eph 5:19 and Col 4:16

I love you and pray for you all and look forward to the day we will meet. God bless.

Luke 6:36-39

 
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Anonymous
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64.207.58.133

God In A Box

May 2 2005, 3:20 PM 

It is so interesting (and sad) how legalists put God in THEIR BOX and fight all the time to keep him in there. God is capable of doing and accepting whatever He so chooses. I do believe the Bible tells us how we get to God through Jesus Christ only but all these opinions expressed in these "proof text" e-mails are nothing more than people's opinions about this and that. The Bible tells us to worship God in Spirit and in Truth. Those are "heart" issues not "legal do it my way or else" issues. We now see dimly in the mirror but we shall see clearly once we are with Him. Is this Park Hill fellowship worshiping and serving God in Spirit and in Truth? That is the question to answer......

 
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Anonymous
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152.163.100.68

Re: God In A Box

May 2 2005, 7:45 PM 

Amen!

Yes at Park Hill we are worshiping and serving God in Spirit and in Truth.

 
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Ken Sublett
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63.84.81.117

YOUR God is in the BOX: not Jehovah!

May 2 2005, 8:33 PM 

    152.163.100.68 wrote: God in a box: Yes at Park Hill we are worshiping and serving God in Spirit and in Truth.
While you are stroking your pleasure centers the word was coined by Philo: Paul called it madness, Philo dubbed it Enthus O Mania. External singing and melody creates the mental anxiety Jesus died to REMOVE as the burden the clergy laded on the "payers" and used them like pack animals.

The woman at the Well spoke of worship in PLACES. Jesus responded that the time was and has ALWAYS been that once you have been set free you worship God in the PLACE of your own HUMAN spirit. Being excited is defined as "intoxicated without wine" or "intoxicated on ignorance." In truth means the WORD of God. Paul defined worship ONLY in terms of the synagogue which read and spoke the WORD of Christ which IS Spirit and Life. Paul confirmed that the converted Jews now worshipped in the PLACE of their own spirit as opposed to IN THE FLESH which you are doing:
    For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh. Ph.3:3
The reason for keeping worship EXCLUSIVELY in the SPIRIT and devoted to teaching the Word "as it has been taught" is that OUTSIDE are the roaming professional rhetoricians, sophists, singers and musicians who, in the Greek literature, are 100% prostitutes or Sodomites believing that homosexuality bound the FLESH and SPIRIT together.
    Beware of DOGS, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision Ph 3:2
The SECTARIAN Hypocrites were ACTORS: they were rhetoricians, SOPHISts, singers, musicians and techne (theater builders and stage managers) and prostitutes. All of these performed SORCERY and because they were all troublemakers they are universally identified as PARASITES. A guitarIST is equated to a PARASITE. The early church of Christ in the Apostolic Constitutions refused to have professional musicians as church members unless they repented and "brought forth fruits of repentance."
    But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. Re.21:8

    For without are DOGS, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and IDOLATERS, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. Re.22:15

There is NO EXCEPTION that religious musicians were IDOLATERS and usually were or used DOGS as priests or "ministers of the gods." Any preacher or professional who claims that God authorizes and DOES NOT UNIVERSALLY CONDEMN making music while pretending to speak for Him are LIARS and SOUL murderers:

They will all go back into hell with Apollyon whose MUSES are defined as the LOCUSTS:
    And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee; Re 18:22
Ken

 
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Anonymous
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205.188.116.204

Re: YOUR God is in the BOX: not Jehovah!

May 3 2005, 5:28 PM 

It is interesting how you pick and choose what to answer and what to avoid. Again I ask how do you define Psalms? It is thoughout the new testament but you keep avoiding giving any answer.

 
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Ken Sublett
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63.84.81.111

Music and Dance = religious sexuality

May 3 2005, 6:25 PM 

Your worship is IN THE BODY and specificially in your pleasure centers. While stimulating one another you FELL VICTIM to preachers who cannot grasp that DAVID thought that God was in the box: the Ark of the Covenant. Therefore, his worship around 'God' was with singing, playing instruments, dancing and undoubtedly MAKING HIMSELF vile as the meaning of his PRAISE WORD.
    "Erotic dance was a sacred ritual in ancient Egypt, common in fertility rituals and sex magick. The most famous was the erotic dance of the priestesses of Het Heret [whom the Greeks called Hathor], but also common in the temples of Bast, Aset [Isis], and Nuit.

    This was what Miriam did.

    The meaning of 'Eve' [ZOE} is disputed. Hawwah is explained in Genesis III. 20 as 'mother of all living'; but this may well be a Hebraicized form of the divine name Heba, hebat, Khebat or Khiba. The goddess, wife of the Hittite Storm-god, is shown riding a lion in a rock-sculpture at Hattrusas--which equates her with Anath-- and appears as a form of ishtar in Hurrian texts.

    She was worshipped at Jerusalem (see 27.2). Her Greek name was Hebe, Heracles's goddess-wife.

The word PSALLO means PLUCK: it is inclusive you can only PLUCK WITH YOUR FINGERS. he very definition is EXCLUSIVE, you CANNOT strum or PLUCK WITH A GUITAR PICK. You cannnot blow a flute, beat a drom, play an organ or a piano without VIOLATING Paul's DIRECT COMMAND for the assemply which is NOT pagan worship but a school ofthe Bible.

The word PSALMOS means a song: a song can be read, recited, sung or sung with an instrument. The Psalms were POEMS and "singing" was the limited range of the normal inflection of the human voice. The word ODE is also a song and further defines PSALMOS as a form of HEBREW CANTILLATION. Cantillation are MARKS showing how to CHANT the sacred text including prose. They are way to give accent or commentary on the text: it is NOT musical in the slightest.
    Paul put the traditional singing AND melody in the PLACE of the human heart." That is because BOTH were used to sexually arouse people into PLEASURING which was outlawed for the synagogue or church." PSALLO in the external sense pointed directly to the homosexual "ministers of the gods" in pagan religions: it speaks of WARFAR and has NO musical content unless you tell someone to PLUCK a harp string."
If you want to command singing with musical accompaniment, the Bible UNIVERSALLY tells you how to do it. (1) You use a word SING (which can be played), (2) you use the word PLUCK or PLAY, and (3) you ALWAYS define the instrument to be plucked. Psallo would NEVER be used to define blowing a wind or percussion instrument.
    And it shall come to pass in that day, that Tyre shall be forgotten seventy years, according to the days of one king: after the end of seventy years shall Tyre sing as an HARLOT. Isa 23:15
In a religious sense, only HARLOTS PLUCKED the harp: David was a shepherd sent to further drive Saul into insanity to make a fool of him:
    Take an harp, go about the city, thou harlot that hast been forgotten; make sweet melody, sing many songs, that thou mayest be remembered. Is.23:16
That is why Jesus spoke in examples and ACTIONS by CASTING OUT the musical minstrels like one EJECTS DUNG. That is because Psalm 41 prophesied that Satan would use people like JUDAS to triumph over and STEAL THE CREDIT by the use of playing instruments and "making a joyful noise before the Lord." The ignorant and superstitious would expect the charismatic (meaning sexual and homosexual) minstrels to have the POWER to bring the gods up or bring them down to do their legalistic WORK. God as WORD came with WORDS as meaning SPIRIT WITHOUT LIMIT specificially to JUDGE the world who believed that SPIRIT was CAUGHT at the sexual and homosexual MUSICAL rituals intended to SELL you the presence of the gods PROVEN by sexual feelings. That would SIFT OUT those who were OF TRUTH from those marked WITH EMOTIONS.

I am going to give you a rest and PROVE to any literate Bible student that Paul INCLUDED speaking or cantillation and EXCLUDED or made UNLAWFUL the form of charismatic "music" you want to make which has NO biblical basis and points 100% to perverted leadership.

Ken

 
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Ken Sublett
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63.84.81.111

More on PSALLO, PSALMOS AND ODE = SPEAK ONLY

May 3 2005, 9:10 PM 

Chris, why don't you slaughter innocent animals to which the Levitical Warrior Musicians were attached: only in Canaan, only in Judah, only in Jerusalem, only AT the temple.

Always in the court yard slaughter pens and burning altar and dung heeps. NEVER in the Holy Place as a type of the Body of Christ where the furniture spoke of the SYNAGOGUE which the officials repudiated. At the same time the PEOPLE'S congregation never sang, never played, never danced and never killed innocent animals: in fact God OUTLAWED in for the Qahal or synagogue or "church in the wilderness.'

Any singer or musician who entered the type of the CHURCH OF CHRIST would have been instantly EXECUTED by his brethren Levites.

Your MUSIC which the Bible calls NOISE in MOCKING and imitating the death of Christ on the Cross just as your Levitical PATTERNISTS did as prophesied and fulfilled. If you have FORCED your slimy bodies into the HOLY PLACE where worship must be REVERENT and with GODLY FEAR you have MARKED yourself and God makes a promise to you:
    For our God is a consuming fire. Heb 12:29
Revelation 18 promises that the AGENTS of the Holy Whore of Babylon will all go back into hell with her. As the king/queen of Babylon "to rest on a bed of MAGGOTS along with his/her harps and harpists" as a TYPE of HELL which was "Solomon's music grove" where they burned babies to a musical beat to GET A MESSAGE FROM HELL.

Paul used the word SPEAK, TEACH and ADMONISH which and used words like PSALLO and PSALMOS and ODE which BY THEIR DEFINITION define HEBREW CANTILLATION which is SPEAKING or READING with a small range of notes or natural inflections of the human voice. IF you cannot hear then you cannot HEAR what the people doing SYNAGOGUE heard and what ALL of the church fathers understood and what ALL of the denominational founders heard and what ALL of the denominations in the USA prior to the hostile takeover of AWAKENINGS and VOODOO music in the 1800s heard CLEARLY.

In 1 Cor 13 Paul compared LIFELESS INSTRUMENTS (or Carnal Weapons) to WITCHCRAFT with a hi-tek FAMILIAR SPIRIT or empty wineskin as an echo chamber to get a message from the "gods" or to the SOUNDING BRASS echo chamber which was used as an AMPLIFIER to frighten the enemy into panic. That is the base meaning of PSALLO. Psallo has the BASE meaning of:
    Psocho (g5597) pso'-kho; prol. from the same base as 5567; to triturate, i.e. (by anal.) to rub out (kernels from husks with the fingers or hand): - rub.
TRITURATE means to Grind into a FINE POWDER. That was the intention of ALL musical instruments. That included the flute-girls meaning prostitutes who SEDUCED the customers in Corinth to steal their TITHES AND OFFERINGS before they could return home with food for the children.

Psalmos means a SONG. There is NO DEFINITION of "a song played with a harp." You would have to use THREE words: (1) sing, (2) PLUCK and (3) define WHAT is to be plucked.

Otherwise, instrumentalists get their AUTHORITY from the foot of the old towers of babbling where Nimrod had his own Musical Worship Team "to generate morals through external means."

Psalmos EXCLUDES music by INCLUDING cantillation or speaking. It hsas the same meaning as our SONG. When we say "sing us a song" we do NOT mean "with a banjo." and IF we want to ADD the banjo then we must say SING us a SONG and PLAY (pluck) the BANJO. Still can't get it, huh."

Furthermore, Peter warning you about Paul and simplistic treatment of his "scriptures"--hit the ANTI- music theme from so many directions that only those WISHING to ignore the word could handle it with dishonesty. First, look at the word for SONG which is an ODE which excludes instruments and includes SPEAK except in those Greek resources which use Psallo to identify the usual PLUCKING on the harp. We have told you that EVERY example used to prove that Psallo INCLUDES plucking follows the same procedure: you MUST tell people what to PLUCK or they might yank out your hair. In addition, ALL of this plucking of the strings is in the context of homosexual grooming of a young boy where priests ALWAYS had their "youth ministers of the gods."
    Psalmos (g5568) psal-mos'; from 5567; a set piece of music,
      i.e. a sacred ode
      accompanied with
      the VOICE,
      harp
      or other instrument;
    a "psalm"); collect. the book of the Psalms: - psalm. Comp. 5603.

Twila Paris or Fanny Crosby or the Voodoo groups who originated "GOSPEL singing" DO NOT write a SACRED ODE.

When the word PSALMOS or SONG is to be sung the HUMAN VOICE is always the FIRST INSTRUMENT OF CHOICE unless you specify OTHERWISE. A BARE-BONES PSALMOS is an ODE and odes EXCLUDES instruments and excludes SINGING in our sense of the word.
    Ode (g5603) o-day'; from 103; a chant or "ode" the gen. term for any words sung; while 5215 denotes espec. a religious metrical composition,
    and 5568 (psalmos) still more spec. a Heb. CANTILLATION): - song.

Therefore, when you ODE the Psalms or inspired Bible Text you CANNOT have an instrument. If you can't grasp the INTERNAL melody or Grace and insist on using a HARP then Peter's warning is for YOU.

If you again ODE you have to shut your machine's MOUTH.

Using PSALLO we have shown you you can ONLY PLUCK strings which means to yank the string and suddenly LET GO to twang or LEAVE A MARK. That is because Apollo or Abaddon is the FATHER of musical melody and always plucked his BOW and his LYRE in the same event.

Because you rest the deliberate sowing of discord on PSALLO, you cannot STRUM or use a PICK. You cannot blow a flute (meaning to pollute or prostitute) you cannot beat on the cymbal which is a SYMBOL of the LOCUSTS in Hebrew.

According to the Britannica "Melody as TUNEFULNESS belongs to the 19th century." Even then, melody DEMANDS a series of SINGLE TONES and would OUTLAW harmony.
    You see, the definition of an ODE makes it CLEAR that PSALMOS is a HEBREW CANTILLATION. You cannot SING and CANTILLATE at the same time any more than you can WALK and RUN at the same time.

    By the pale moon light you can SEE that Paul used the word SPEAK. That means speak as in speak.

    The SPEAKING was one to another to TEACH: you cannot SPEAK with your guitar pick or by body worship. Paul called them LIFELESS INSTRUMENTS which means CARNAL WEAPONS. You cannot battle principalities and powers in high places who BROUGHT you music to DIVERT you from God's Word by the use of INSTRUMENTS which all authorities admit are claimed to connect to the Devil or Lucifer "the singing and harp playing prostitute.'

    The purpose as in the SYNAGOGUE OF CHRIST where He invites the twos and threes to "come learn of me" was to SPEAK, to TEACH and to ADMONISH.

      There was a LAW against "playing instruments and making a joyful noise before the Lord" when you ASSEMBLED which was only for instructions, to read or rehearse the Word.

      In Romans 15 PLEASURING (charismatic) is outlawed because the assembly was to GLORIFY GOD using one MIND and one MOUTH and speaking "that which is written." Those songs and sermons were written by the Spirit of Christ.

      That is the meaning of ODEING or SPEAKING which was always UNISON until witchcraft and voodoo got into "gospel music" in the 19th century AWAKENINGS which were quite identical to devil worship in Iraq.
Paul warned in Ephesians 5 "don't get drunk with wine." That was a POINTY word which points to the Greek gatherings where one got FLUTED or PIPED down with wine: music and wine make a successful BUSINESS.
    "But perhaps nothing was more characteristic of the mystery religions than what they called ecstasy. Believers in the mystery religions sought to cultivate a magical, sensuous communion with the divine. They would do almost anything to get themselves into a semiconscious, hallucinatory, hypnotic, or orgiastic spell in which they believed they were sensually in contact with deity. Some used wine to assist in the euphoric experience, as Paul implied in Ephesians 5:18. Whether from literal intoxication or emotional exhilaration, when worshipers fell into a state of euphoria, it was as if they had been drugged. They assumed they were in contact with God. (MacArthur, John, Charismatic Chaos, p. 164. Zondervan)
This EMOTIONAL drunkeness was not from just drinking wine as people don't drink wine without MUSIC to take more money from the customer. The word Paul used is used to mean to PIPE DOWN or FLUTE DOWN with wine. Because the wine was often fairly mind, the INTOXICATION was defined as spiritual intoxication with passion and pride.

If you ODE the PSALMS Paul has told the AWAKE people that the MODE is not MUSICAL but is COMMANDED to be CANTILLATION. Cantillation is simply raising the pitch of the voice and stretching out the syllables with the normal inflection of SPEAK in order to make your voice heard by a crowd. There was no charismatic SINGING and no INSTRUMENTS in the synagogue or School of the Bible. They spoke the word, Jesus SPOKE the Word, Paul SPOKE the Word and DIRECTLY COMMANDED that we SPEAK the Word.

We have shown you that the MUSICAL words Paul EXCLUDED by INCLUDING the human voice and heart as the INSTRUMENT speak of the homosexual wine and music festivals. They also specificially INCLUDE the form of HEBREW CANTILLATION and that EXCLUDES a Musical worship Team of strange guys promising to LEAD YOU INTO THE PRESENCE OF GOD. They produce intoxication in fact, this was often seen as DRUNK ON IGNORANCE.

Ken

 
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Anonymous
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152.163.100.68

Re: More on PSALLO, PSALMOS AND ODE = SPEAK ONLY

May 4 2005, 7:41 PM 

I also wonder where in the scriptures exactly it says that song books, tuning forks, individual communion cups, wafers, um what else dos the Church of Christ use in worship that may not be specifically mentioned in the Bible. Are these not aids for worship? I know we will never be on the same page I am just curious and trying to understand. I have no desire to change your thinking because it is mute but please answer.


 
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Ken Sublett
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63.84.81.137

Dodges!

May 4 2005, 8:37 PM 

    I also wonder where in the scriptures exactly it says that song books, tuning forks, individual communion cups, wafers, um what else dos the Church of Christ use in worship that may not be specifically mentioned in the Bible. Are these not aids for worship? I know we will never be on the same page I am just curious and trying to understand. I have no desire to change your thinking because it is mute but please answer.
If ALL churches VIOLATED all of the commands, examples and inferences in the Bible that WOULD NOT remove the direct command that Paul commands a style called CANTILLATION which was no more musical than the preacher's sermon. The marks were for emphaisis as I like to overuse BOLD to stess what I think is the important points.

That would not give a jot or tittle of authority for a MUSICAL PERFORMANCE when Jesus promises to come and be our Teacher through the Word. Jesus SPOKE, Paul commanded speaking. When you speak or read the black text on white paper you are less tempted to make it musical and therefore put your lies to a melody to deceive.

That would not remove the fact that Psallo means to PLUCK and is a warfare word related to the BOW used to grind the literal heart into bits by shooting arrows.

That would not remove the fact that ALL of the examples which connect PLUCKING to the HARP implicate male or female prostitutes GOOMING their next victim.

There are several DIRECT COMMANDS outlawing the SONG BOOK as surely as it would outlaw a POPULAR newly inspired BIBLE. Romans 15 demands NO PLEASURING and then speaking with ONE MIND and ONE VOICE and using THAT WHICH IS WRITTEN as the only way to glorify God. If God INCLUDES the songs and sermons written by the Spirit of Christ (1 Pe 1:11, 2 cor 3; Rev 19:10) then that EXCLUDES the blue book. Not until the mid fourth century did SINGING become a regular ACT OF WORSHIP and whe know who and where and why it was introduced. Many churches still use a PSALTER which is a metrical version of the Biblical Psalms which are sung with a little square sequence because the DIRECT COMMAND was to TEACH and LEARN. However, if you add the BLUE BOOK and sow discord with the GOLD BOOK SECTARIANS that DOES NOT change the fact that PSALLO or MELODY spoke to perverted religionists. That does not change the fact that sermonizing and singing and music INTENDS to showcase the performers standing in the holy place and a calculated intention of SILENCING the voice of God.

As for CUPS: the word CUP means CONTENT. At Passover and all other times people had their OWN DRINKING cups: they did not pass and sip:
    Lu.22:17 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves:

    Diamerizo (g1266) dee-am-er-id'-zo; from 1223 and 3307; to partition thoroughly (lit. in distribution, fig. in dissension): - cloven, divide, part.

Part does not mean sip. So. At any rate, whether one or individual cups the drinking is not changed. If they spiked the grape juice with Christian Brother's Cummunion wine then it would NOT meet the requirements. Or if they added cookies! Get the point.

However, there is NO MUSIC as worship concept in the entire Bible. The command is to teach and admonish which means PREACH. If you DO MUSIC when the preacher is performing then it is NO LONGER the same thing.

Paul had an INCLUSIVE WORSHIP word at the ASSEMBLY or GATHERING which was always a form of the Greek word SYNAGOGUE. That INCLUSIVE act of worship was to GIVE HEED to the Word of Christ (that which is written) as the ONLY way to GLORIFY God (Romans 15). If the TEAM makes music with Twila Paris then you are violating two direct commands of Paul and REFUSING to give Glory to God by using HIS songs and sermons. Therefore, SPEAKING excludes modern SINGING which did not exist: "Melody as tunefulness belongs to the 19th century." "That which is written" excludes that which is NOT written. All early churches understood that and this is why singing as an ACT of liturgy had to wait for another 300 or more years.

Eating the Lord's Supper was ADDED to the SYNAGOGUE and there was NO PRAISE SERVICE in the Synagogue or other ACTS other than praying stated Biblical prayers. That is because at the GATHERINGS which was "the church in the wilderness" the ALARM which was "playing instruments and making a joyful noise before the Lord was FORBIDDEN." That was because that was the WARRIOR'S PANIC SONG intended to drive the enemy into cowardice. That may be why LIFELESS INSTRUMENTS and CARNAL WEAPONS are from the same concept.

The sowing of discord evaporates when you grasp that church is NOT a pagan worship center but A SCHOOL OF THE BIBLE where Jesus Christ in Spirit invites us to COME LEARN OF ME but only when we SPEAK as the oracle of God meaning speak THAT WHICH IS WRITTEN or inspired. Then, if you want to MINISTER you can do that with any give you have as a talent. However, the notion that God needs TRAINED SPEAKERS or musicians to AID the worship is contrary to the letter or spirit of the Word. It is in fact, both sectarian and legalistic.

Ken

 
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Anonymous
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64.207.58.133

I question the Truth Part!

May 4 2005, 12:02 PM 

I have visited this place and they have strayed from NT worship! They may have the Spirit but Truth in worship has left them. All this hand-clapping, twirling around, yelling out-loud to the preacher, praise band goes on there. Where are the Truth warriors there? Why are you not correcting these wayward folks?

 
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