I attend the Granny White CoC

Here are some things that are bothering me:

(1) We have a preacher that publicly in the pulpit takes it out on people that have said anything to him face to face. In other words, using the pulpit against individuals. Example: The church loaned him 25,000 for a down payment on a house, and I mentioned that the money in the treasury was not given to loan out to a preacher. After this he started talking about people who were trouble makers in the church. I confronted him when he gave out packages that looked like Christmas gifts to the elders right in front of everybody right before the main services. This didn't seem right to me, and I mentioned that he should have given these gifts in private. Since this preacher has been with us, we now have "trunk or treat" (a Halloween celebration - a pagan holiday) event most every year, someone put Christmas wreaths on the front of the church building front doors (isn't Christmas another man made celebration( - I thought the only day Christians were to celebrate was the first day of the week) - he presented a sermon one Sunday evening, his title: "Joysuckers" - and used the story in the OT about when David came back from battle and danced naked in the streets, his wife came out and was displeased with him - then he went on how he always had a smile on his face, etc. - anybody making 90,000 a year should have a smile on his face - there are many in this congregation that are on a fixed-income, and yet the elders want to increase the budget every year - and then if the congregation doesn't meet the budget then they start pumping us for money - I told one that it was not their right to tell us what to give - the Bible tells us to give as we have been prospered - and the way things are going in this congregation I don't want to support the goings on here

(2) Well, this is another thing that really bothered me - they thinkered with the Sunday night church services - having one at 4pm and one at 6pm - the 4pm service was to accomadate the showing of the SUPER BOWL for a younger mens Sunday school class - I mentioned to several that I thought this was absurb - why didn't this class do this at someone's home - and not make it a church event

(3) Right now we are not meeting the budget that the elders set - and membership is falling - I used to love to go this congregation - but now I do not - because I see this church going the way of the other churches that have adopted liberal ways - they said showing of SB was a commmunity outreach program - how, ridiculous

(4) When elders are appointed - guess who comes up with the recommended names - the elders - never the congregation - we are not even given this choice

(5) Right now we have 3 or 4 elders out of 7 that are Lipscomb professors are have been - Woodmont Hills went the way of the community church - and I believe Lipscomb professors had a lot to do with it

(6) One thing that bothered me, was this - we had a missionalry committee - and a Lipscomb professor was appointed to head it up - one elder (who's son did not attend GW) wanted funds to go to England - some of the ones on the committee did not think an outsider should be given these funds - so the Lipscomb professor disbands the committee, and reforms it - after that his wife and the wife of another elder are on the committee along his hand picked cronies

(7) We no longer have gospel meetings, not even 2,3 or 4 day meetings

(8) Last year they did not even have Vacation Bible school - Oh, but we can have a special showing of the Super Bowl

Does my concern have any basis?

Granny White: he presented a sermon one Sunday evening, his title: "Joysuckers" - and used the story in the OT about when David came back from battle and danced naked in the streets, his wife came out and was displeased with him - then he went on how he always had a smile on his face, etc. - anybody making 90,000 a year should have a smile on his face -

First, you got yourself a first class ignorant and evil man. I have heard that sermon preached before. Preacher said that this was APPROVED AUTHORITY for dancing naked as a Christian act of worship." He was about 50 pounds overweight and I told him he would have to go first. When I began to expose both his ignorance and obvious Cross roads DOMINANT PASTOR garbage he got very violent and threatened to bring me up on CHARGES before the elders.

The preacher does not grasp and why should he if he is from Luny U that David had brought on a great plague. When he let God loose on the people rather than confessing a plague broke out. David's stargazer was given a message from God to say that he could build an alternative altar at the Jebusite High Place because he was too fearful of God to return to Gibeon.

David called all of the nation who could attend and made the Ark Movement to HIS OWN TABERNACLE a "congregational" ritual when he was head of the NATIONAL or civil nation whom God had turned over to worship the starry hosts. During the singing, dancing, playing instruments and MAKING HIMSELF VILE the disturbance caused Uzzah to touch the overturning cart which transportation VIOLATED the law. The rituals at the temple were NATIONAL SACRIFICES. The people's congregation were EXCLUDED from the grounds when the loud trumpets sounded the beginning of burning animals.

The next time David called only the NATIONAL or civil people and the movement AWAY from God and TOWARD a pagan high place went well.

Michal, David's Wife, who had honored and protected David, questoned his making himself VILE which is the meaning of this kind of PRAISE. David was enraged and promised that he was being honored before the SLAVE GIRLS or camp followers and he would be even MORE vile. Here is a picture of VILENESS where David's whirling dance probably made him PUKE.

The fact that Michal had no more children by DAVID does not mean that DAVID PUNISHED her for questioning him (or the preacher?). Rather, it means that Michal had no more dealings with a VILE person. David's PLAY is identical to the RISING UP TO PLAY at Mount Sinai. This was the perverted, musical idolatry of the Egyptian Triad. This connects also to Samson who GROUND for his captors. He did not grind grain: rather the grinders were concubines or prostitutes. Therefore, David was MADE VILE using the same PLAY used at Mount Sinai and by David.

David proceeded to give one of Saul's grandsons as a HUMAN SACRIFICE and the other children were destroyed except one criple who could not THREATEN David. These children may have been the children of Michal by her Saul-arranged marriage.

So, you have yourself a HOSTILE guy who USES the elders as HIS shepherds while HE is the leader. This is the message of Rubel Shelly.

He has NO AUTHORITY for being on the DOLE much less turning MINISTER (slave) into MASTER. He proves that your church has been TAKEN CAPTIVE. So, you need to get the message out--and I mean a mass "taking the oversight"--to prove that the LAW OF GIVING or the LAW OF TITHING is a bald faced lie. He is a HIRELING and works for you. If he OUTS his enemies publically he IMITATES David whose psalms are often trying to use God to destroy even those who SPOKE AGAINST HIM. If he would do this publically then he is an EXTREMELY DANGEROUS man and you need to watch your back. Put the pressure on and keep it on: his DAVID'S sermonizing proves that he thanks that you have forced the elders to SET A KING OVER US. The king, God prophesied, would turn the young men to be his CHARIOT MUSICIANS. Watch out for David's Harps.

Almost by definition performance preachers or rhetoricians or sOPHISts (serpents), singers and musicians are effeminate. He has a big mouth but he will fling his hands and run if you stand up and speak up.

Ken Sublett. I will follow up

Please, allow me to take this apart piece by piece...


"I attend the Granny White CoC Here are some things that are bothering me:"

When did we start bypassing the "if he doesn't listen, take brothers with you..."?



"We have a preacher that publicly in the pulpit takes it out on people that have said anything to him face to face. In other words, using the pulpit against individuals. Example: The church loaned him 25,000 for a down payment on a house, and I mentioned that the money in the treasury was not given to loan out to a preacher. After this he started talking about people who were trouble makers in the church."

Many churches make house downpayments part of their compensation packages. It usually helps to encourage longevity of ministers at one congregation. Most of them have some kind of stipulation about the length of time they must stay vs. how much they should pay back. In the end, it's no different than an advance on a paycheck. This is also a common practice in the business world.



"I confronted him when he gave out packages that looked like Christmas gifts to the elders right in front of everybody right before the main services. This didn't seem right to me, and I mentioned that he should have given these gifts in private.

If it's wrong, it's wrong. The location should not affect it (unless it's indecent). There is nothing wrong with giving someone a gift. It doesn't involve you.



Since this preacher has been with us, we now have "trunk or treat" (a Halloween celebration - a pagan holiday) event most every year

They are not celebrating a pagan holiday. They are providing a safe place for kids at the congregation to get safe candy. Trunk or treat beats door to door with strangers any day.



"someone put Christmas wreaths on the front of the church building front doors (isn't Christmas another man made celebration( - I thought the only day Christians were to celebrate was the first day of the week)"

Christmas wreaths are hardly a "celebration". I have attend very conservative churches for my entire life. At almost every one of them, the flowers on the pulpit mysteriously changed to poinsettias around Christmas time. I never felt the need to go forward during the invitation.



"he presented a sermon one Sunday evening, his title: "Joysuckers" - and used the story in the OT about when David came back from battle and danced naked in the streets, his wife came out and was displeased with him"

I'll have to admit that I'm not familiar with that story. If it's in the Bible, however, it's worth talking about. I would be interested in what his main point was.



"then he went on how he always had a smile on his face, etc. - anybody making 90,000 a year should have a smile on his face

What amount is O.K. with you? When did we get this idea that becoming a minister = taking a vow of poverty? Do you realize how many men that would be great ministers shy away from it because of that attitude?



"there are many in this congregation that are on a fixed-income, and yet the elders want to increase the budget every year - and then if the congregation doesn't meet the budget then they start pumping us for money - I told one that it was not their right to tell us what to give - the Bible tells us to give as we have been prospered"

Many of your congregation are NOT on a fixed income as well. Your budget should increase every year. Otherwise you are being stagnant. They are not telling you specifically the amount to give. They are just encouraging people to give more, which is a VERY BIBLICAL concept.



"and the way things are going in this congregation I don't want to support the goings on here"

It's time for you to move on. There is no point in staying somewhere where you are that miserable and not confident in your leadership.



"Well, this is another thing that really bothered me - they thinkered with the Sunday night church services - having one at 4pm and one at 6pm - the 4pm service was to accomadate the showing of the SUPER BOWL for a younger mens Sunday school class - I mentioned to several that I thought this was absurb - why didn't this class do this at someone's home - and not make it a church event"

Or why not get together with other Christians? First, a Sunday evening service is not commanded in scripture, so the time it takes place could not be less of an issue. Second, why not provide an option that makes worship available to a larger number of people.



"Right now we are not meeting the budget that the elders set - and membership is falling - I used to love to go this congregation - but now I do not - because I see this church going the way of the other churches that have adopted liberal ways - they said showing of SB was a commmunity outreach program - how, ridiculous"

I can't speak to your budget or attendance, but showing the Super Bowl in your building CAN help with outreach. Many who would not normally darken the doors of your building would come for such an event. Many who don't think Christians have normal lives would be encourage to see them in such a setting.




"When elders are appointed - guess who comes up with the recommended names - the elders - never the congregation - we are not even given this choice"

I'm not a big fan of that either, but yours is not the only church that does it that way. It is usually not an indication of any slant on other issues.



"Right now we have 3 or 4 elders out of 7 that are Lipscomb professors are have been - Woodmont Hills went the way of the community church - and I believe Lipscomb professors had a lot to do with it"

Lipscomb does not require Bible professors to have proficiency in changing churches of Christ into community churches. Not every Bible professor is the same, and there is no scripture excluding them from being elders.



"One thing that bothered me, was this - we had a missionalry committee - and a Lipscomb professor was appointed to head it up - one elder (who's son did not attend GW) wanted funds to go to England - some of the ones on the committee did not think an outsider should be given these funds - so the Lipscomb professor disbands the committee, and reforms it - after that his wife and the wife of another elder are on the committee along his hand picked cronies"

First, there a lot of "one things that have bothered you". Second, I doubt you know the inner workings of that committee. Your assessment could be accurate, or it couldn't be farther from the truth. Don't get in the business of trying to read the hearts and minds of others. It's fruitless.



"We no longer have gospel meetings, not even 2,3 or 4 day meetings"

A LOT OF CHURCHES DON'T HOLD MEETINGS ANYMORE. In most communities, they are not effective in the way they were 20 or 30 years ago. If we can't get our own people to attend them, how do we expect the unchurched to be there?



"Last year they did not even have Vacation Bible school - Oh, but we can have a special showing of the Super Bowl"

The effectiveness of a VBS varies from place to place. If it was not bearing fruit for your congregation, there might be better ways to spend the funds and energy. Comparing it the the Super Bowl is apples and oranges. The Super Bowl is not a week long, you don't need tons of people and time on the planning end, it is substantially less expensive (you did say you were struggling to meet the budget) and it targets an entirely different audience.



"Does my concern have any basis?"

Obviously, it does to you, and I would guess it would with many others who frequent this site. The real question is, does it have any basis in scripture or is it only a problem because it's different and you're not used to it.

Goooollleee: whut ubout venting un th PULpit? Jesus stood up at the PULPIT which was INTENDED to hold up the Bible both SYMBOLICALLY and practically. Jesus read the word and had the UNcommon decency to sit down and "preach" which as SERMO means to dialog.

If Jesus had 90,000 pieces of silver MAYBE he would have remained?

Jesus REPUDIATED the doctors of the law and said that they TAKE AWAY THE KEY TO KNOWLEDGE. If the preacher didn't know about David's Naked Dance REMOVING the Ark (with god inside, he thought) to his own, CONCEDED Jebusite High place the HE HAD A HEAD START in taking away the KEYS.

Jesus sent the first missionaries out WITHOUT even a begging bag: the next journey he permitted them the BEGGING BAG and their own funds. The preached AS THE WENT and got fed IF they went and if they didn't WENT then Paul said "IF they will not work neither shall they eat." He was speaking of the MANY who were preacher-boys. Paul's allowance for HERALDS or EVANGELISTS is the same thing as the Begging Bag Jesus permitted. You cannot TRAFFICK in the FREE GOSPEL without giving up any moral authority. If he cannot be a VOCATIONAL MINISTRY then God does not need him and CANNOT USE him. The first church writings demands that you GET HIM A JOB or get him a SADDLE on the next donkey heading west.

Next, there is NO LAW OF GIVING and therefore if the preacher wants to SIN by not going then he should know that it is an UNFUNDED role. If he pressures the working people to PAY HIM then Paul would call him an EXTORTIONISTS which he equated to an ADULTERER.

There need be only ONE Terminal, beyond redemption sin and using David's Naked Dance proves Biblical Illiteracy and a questionable MORALITY if he sees this as proof of MALE DOMINANCE which extends to his EMPLOYERS.

Ken

You're an idiot Ken.

Calvin gives no PAY for preachers who are teachers: they get their living from teaching in schools and colleges or private students. As missionaries they follow the command of Jesus and the example Paul that they get food and housing and travel AS THEY GO. Many of the early poor priests created public schools.
Erasmus defends this and he as a priest worked in universities or fleecing widows. Nevertheless he ridicules the professional priesthood:

But Christ, interrupting them in their vanities, which otherwise were endless, will ask them,

"Whence this new kind of Jews?

I acknowledge one commandment, which is truly mine, of which alone I hear nothing. I promised, 'tis true, my Father's heritage,and that without parables, not to cowls, odd prayers, and fastings, but to the duties of faith and charity.

Nor can I acknowledge them that least acknowledge their faults. They that would seem holier than myself, let them if they like possess to themselves those three hundred sixty-five heavens of Basilides the heretic's invention, or command them whose foolish traditions they have preferred before my precepts to erect them a new one."

When they shall hear these things and see common ordinary persons preferred before them, with what countenance, think you, will they behold one another? In the meantime they are happy in their hopes, and for this also they are beholding to me.

And yet these kind of people, though they are as it were of another commonwealth, no man dares despise, especially those begging friars, because

they are privy to all men's secrets by means of confessions, as they call them. Which yet were no less than treason to discover, unless, being got drunk, they have a mind to be pleasant, and then all comes out, that is to say by hints and conjectures but suppressing the names.

But if anyone should anger these wasps, they'll sufficiently revenge themselves in their public sermons and so point out their enemy by circumlocutions that there's no one but understands whom 'tis they mean, unless he understand nothing at all;

nor will they give over their barking till you throw the dogs a bone. And now tell me, what juggler or mountebank you had rather behold than hear them

rhetorically play the fool in their preachments,

and yet most sweetly imitating what rhetoricians have written touching the art of good speaking?

The rhetoricians were sOPHISts or the SERPENTS of the Devils agents in the book of Revelation.

pharmakos poisoner, sorcerer, magician, 5.

pharmak-eus , eôs, ho, poisoner, sorcerer, S.Tr.1140, Pl.Smp.203d, etc.; gnêsioi sophistai kai ph. Jul.Or.6.197d .

sophistês 1 [sophizomai]

I. a master of one's craft or art, an adept, of a diviner, Hdt.; of poets, Pind.; of the Creator, Plat.; metaph., s. pêmatôn an adept in misery, Eur.

2. a sophist (in bad sense), a quibbler, cheat, Ar., Dem., etc.

Ken

You stated that I should move on. It was the same thing the preacher said. The preacher that can't stand criticism. Even the elders do not want any citicism. Listen, BUD, this is a free country–– what is wrong with the leadership of so many churches today is the elders think that any decision they make is somehow approved by God (these same elders that keep appointing their own cronies to serve with them - the congregation is never asked) - As for me leaving, I have already left the church of christ (notice small letters for caps) - I attend with my wife - My head has left, my body is there but my heart is no longer in it. Here is some history BUD- when I was eleven years old I was baptized - many years later I learned that I was baptized by a homosexual preacher - he and our song leader lived together - being an ignorant and uneducated group in our church I doubt if any had a clue - I got my information from a neighbor lady who knew what the song leader was - And by the way BUD, my young daughter was baptized by a homosexual - DB who held a meeting where I was attening- he taught at Freed-Hardeman University - And BUD, I also have been a preacher - the first preaching postion I was paid l5.00 for traveling 85 miles - stayed all day - we had a baby - left at 7am and got home at 11pm - the second preaching position I got paid 25.00 for all day Sunday - and the 3rd positiion I had while teaching at David Lipscomb University - I commuted about 45 miles 5 days a week - and during my position there they provided an old house - which my wife and I fixed up over a period of 4 and half years - I taught at David Lipscomb University for 28 years - because I did not have an advanced degree beyond an MA I was replaced - we had my wifes mother who had Azlhemier and I could not get away to work on an advanced degree - 28 years and I was just terminated with no reason what so ever - not even a thank you for teaching there those many years for very little pay - the person who replaced me RT was a personal friend of XXX (who they say is a homosexual) - he is the culprit who arranged for me to be replaced - I had good repoir with the students and had many students tell me how they appreciated me as a teacher -
As far as churches today trying to be everything to everyone - it won't fly - it is the POWER OF THE GOSPEL that will cause people to serve God - not all these drama plays, 7-11 songs (7 words repeated ll times) - I am no longer preaching today - I have had 3 back operations, and a bout with cancer - and I am in no mood for you liberals who would highjack the church building from older
members who have been faithful to attend and give their funds for legitimate reasons (evangelism, and benevolence - not programs that are for shear entertainment - woship is horizontal to vertical - not horizontal to horizontal BUD- yeah, you ought to listen to some of us older people - we might have been born yesterday - but we know when we are being SCAMMED!!!!!!! - and don't bother to respond - I already know where you are coming from - THE ME GENERATION - THE CHANGE AGENT CLAN -
we older people prefer just a SIMPLE CHURCH SERVICE - NO WORSHIP COORDINATOR -
JUST LEAVE THE SIMPLE EXAMPLE OF CHURCH WORSHIP THAT IS AUTHORIZED IN THE BIBLE ALONE - GO BUILD YOUR OWN CHURCH BUILDING AND CALL IT WHAT EVER YOU WANT - AND AS FAR AS VENTING - YOU DON'T SCARE ME - I WILL VENT ALL I WANT - WHEN I SEE PEOPLE ARE TRYING TO DO IT THEIR WAY INSTEAD OF THE WAY TAUGHT IN THE SCRIPTURES I WILL VENT - PAUL USED EXPISTLES - I USE CONCERNEDMEMBERS.com - WHERE ELSE CAN WE TURN - and no thank you who ever you are - you are too smug to suit me!!!!!

Funny, about the time I returned to Middle Tenneesse (Murfreesboro) in 1980 one of the men in the Old Men's Class who knew EVERYBODY made me aware that the Nashville area preachercraft was plagued with the problem.

That was about the time the HEAD of the department got turned in for his affairs. He was hired by one of our elders to be the CHAPLIN for his business.

When I hear the preaching and song leading I just squirm. We had a preacher who mentioned in a sermon that he and another preacher spent half a day in the woods PRAYING. I saw other people whose relationships seemed thicker than the blood of Jesus.

I think ALL of the new style worship has the PLAGUE and the church has been taken captive by theatrical performance which has no other meaning in the ancient system of religionism but sexuality and perversion. That seems to fit the end time Harlot church which WILL end as Revelation 18:22 defines.

They think that they sound "spiritual" but I get the feeling of gay troubadors. I don't want to breathe the same air.

Ken

Who they say is a homosexual? Who is "they"? And no matter who "they" is, why are you furthering gossip?

I have it from a good source that XXX was a good friend of XX in Honduras. He was a homosexual. THIS INFO. was from a person who gave up a good job and went down there as a sincere Christian to serve. If he was not quilty why did he leave Lipscomb. THERE WAS TRUTH IN IT. He now attends sometimes where I attend. I am sorry, it bothers me when he is in the audience. He is the very one indirectly that got me replaced at Lipscomb, after having taught for 28 years. I was glad to see him canned. All the problems that are arising in the coc is making me sick that I was ever a part of this bunch. It is really something, when some of us started out because we really believed that the brethren around us were sincere Christians, only to find out that they were like all the rest of the TV preachers - just in it for the money.

If you don't have proof, it's gossip. Period. And spreading it is sin. Period.

I just wonder Mr. Site manager. If the junk "Granny White Concerned Member" was saying was so vile, more vile than the libel he already has written, that you had to edit it. Should you maybe be more responsible than you are in what you are posting?

I have known of the Granny White congregation for many, many years and know of it today. It has been and still is a sound congregation. Isn't it the congregation where the term "change agents" was coined.

I'm sorry he is hurting so much, but should he be allowed to hurt others?



===========================================
MESSAGE FROM THE MODERATOR

Please state anything you believe to be false here.

Thank You

This site was sent to me by a friend. I have looked at this site and some of the ungodly statements and the hateful manner in which they are expressed. I know why men are no longer going into the ministry as gospel preachers. I am ashamed that my brethren hate each other like they do and vicousness with which they attack each other. If the lady from Granny White keeps talking and expressing herself like this, everyone she talks to will hate the Lord's church just like she does.

I have know Bro Dale Jenkins for 20 years and know above all things that he is as grounded in scripture and has a passion for lost souls, he learned this from one of the finest men I know, HIS FATHER JERRY. To slander him becuae of what he makes is shameful. $90,000 in Nashville Tn is not high for anyone's salary, besides, Dale has so many years in the ministery. I knew Dale when he barely got by at Eve Alabama but stayed with them and did a trmendous work there. If you work for $25.00 per day, that was fine but seems like you could get a house for $15,000 and gas for a nickle.

You ought to be proud you have someone trying some new ways to get people interested in the Lord and His message of salvation. But like I said, I have known Dale for many years and know that he would never do anything that violated scripture and therein lies the problem, you have set yourself up as the god who judges.
You ought to be singing the praises of people who are willing to put up with people like you and your sharp tongue,

Prov 18:21
21 Death and life are in the power of the tongue,
And those who love it will eat its fruit.
NKJV

Quite frankly if I was Dale I would ask the elders to double my salary for just have to put up with such immaturity and nit picking.

Granny White is a great congregation and you all ought to spend your time lifting her up and praising her, she is your family, God's Bride and a hope and light in Nashvilee for the lost. Too many people are leaving the churchc for which our Lord died because all the hear are the "Gum flappers" and they never see the towel carriers, teh servants. They are tied of the fighing and hatefulness that exsists in the church. I believe it is a tool the devil has handed over to teh Lord's people and they have learned to use it all too well.

I still stand behind my original statement, this web site has become the devil's tool in slandering, and hateful speech. I agree with the good brother. Go to them and work it out. There is no place for airing dirty laundry. Reading some of the responses, I know why the church isn't growing and if it is, it is in spite of some of the people that would rather type messages on thi site than get out and do good works in their community. If you have so much time on your hands, as a minister let me ask you to do the church a favor, go and volunteer at the church for some good work. Mam, if you don't like Dale, go up Sunday and kiss him on teh cheek and tell him you have been praying for him and love what he does in th community. I guarentee he will die of a heart attack. Get off the internet and this site and go find some wonderful soul out there looking for hope and and invitation to live. SHAME....SHAME.....SHAME....
This just encourges me to get on my knees and pray for ministers of teh gospel. Dale has my simpathy and thank God I can minister in Florida with trhe finest family of God I have ever know.
God Bless. Mike

The real story behind this is - one of the members of the missionary committee told me this as fact - he was on the missionary committee and disagreed with giving this elder's son funds to go on a missionary trip to England because he did not attend GW - so the head of the missionary committee said that the committee was going to be disbanded - BUT later he reformed it - these are the things that are bothering some of us older folks at GW - and what really got me is when some of the younger deacons persuaded some of the older elders (and they let them) fire Bro. Woodson - he was an outstanding preacher and true to the word - yes, some of us older brethren are grieved at some of the goings on at GW

Yeah, we are the ones who get all these sermons about folks who would criticize, etc. - like the "Joysucker" sermon, that upset both me and my wife - it seems he is nice to the Sunday morning crowd - he never would have had a sermon like this with them - too many visitors - oh, there have been other sermons when he vented his displeasure with some of us who had the courage to say something to his face - well, we don't go to church to be lambasted by some preacher who thinks he knows it all, but who I consider to be one of the most naive persons I have ever met -the general attitude of these young people is that we are the problem with the church - and they know how to fix it - the problem with the church of christ (notice small letters)
is there have been a lot of preachers (not all thank God) but too many who have been in it for the almightly buck - and the group coming on now is like all the rest - they don't want to start out where we started out - poor middle class - they want a hefy salary (like they are some big CEO for some business) - our preacher has even used the term "corporate church" - and just look around you - see what has happened to the Main coc in Franklin - I had it from a good source that the elders felt if they had a worship coordinator (paying him around 90.00 years) that it would be easier to get a BIG NAME PREACHER - I could go on and on - and by the way I appreciate your remarks, you have been relatively kind - I know I have been upset - but I cannot just sit back and see all these things going on without speaking up in some form or other - and I have addressed these issues to several of the elders - I don't mince words - especially when I see the wool being pulled over people's eyes

Ken,

Revealing personal anecdote:
"I have heard that sermon preached before. Preacher said that this was APPROVED AUTHORITY for dancing naked as a Christian act of worship." He was about 50 pounds overweight and I told him he would have to go first. When I began to expose both his ignorance and obvious Cross roads DOMINANT PASTOR garbage he got very violent and threatened to bring me up on CHARGES before the elders."

You have revealed throughout your posts that you have suffered (perhaps still suffer) from the unkind actions of others. I regret what this has done to your outlook on others and even scripture.

While that is a shame, it does not excuse your actions or your words.

Are you a prophet or a seer? From this and other posts it seems that anyone who makes a "the church is going to hell in a handbasket" post (especially if it involves a 'preacher') is automatically an infallible source.

You, and others, have actually reasoned "if someone wrote something here on Concernedmembers.com it must be true." When the preacher in the above story threatened you with "charges" (whatever that means) would it have been just if the threshold for receiving such charges was as low as the one you've displayed?

Do you actually check on any of these stories or do you just assume (as you have implied in other threads) that whoever posts here (and agrees with you) has motives that are always pure and hearts that are without stain or blemish?

Specifically, you stated: First, you got yourself a first class ignorant and "evil" man.

Wow!
1. A lesson that you didn't listen to
2. Delivered by a man you don't know (have you ever met him?)
3. Reported by one member who has your disdain for others

Proof positive, so you can state, without hesitation, this man is EVIL!(?)

Such certainty and supernatural vision could drive lesser men mad.

"You stated that I should move on. It was the same thing the preacher said. The preacher that can't stand criticism. Even the elders do not want any criticism".

If he is a minister and can't take criticism, he picked the wrong line of work. The only job more criticized than a minister is the head coach of a sports team or a referee.



"Listen, BUD, this is a free country–– what is wrong with the leadership of so many churches today is the elders think that any decision they make is somehow approved by God (these same elders that keep appointing their own cronies to serve with them - the congregation is never asked)"

Like I said in my first post, I don't like that practice either. It doesn't necessarily mean they are only picking their "cronies", though.



"As for me leaving, I have already left the church of christ (notice small letters for caps) - I attend with my wife - My head has left, my body is there but my heart is no longer in it."

I'm sorry to hear that. My suggestion was not to move on from the church as a whole but simply to find a new congregation.



"Here is some history BUD- when I was eleven years old I was baptized - many years later I learned that I was baptized by a homosexual preacher - he and our song leader lived together - being an ignorant and uneducated group in our church I doubt if any had a clue - I got my information from a neighbor lady who knew what the song leader was - And by the way BUD, my young daughter was baptized by a homosexual - DB who held a meeting where I was attening- he taught at Freed-Hardeman University"

It's a good thing that your spirituality derives from God and not from individuals. People are going to let you down. You can't tie your soul to them. Any number of people have been baptized by people who have later had affairs. Those who were baptized by those men are no less Christian because of it.



"And BUD, I also have been a preacher - the first preaching postion I was paid l5.00 for traveling 85 miles - stayed all day - we had a baby - left at 7am and got home at 11pm - the second preaching position I got paid 25.00 for all day Sunday - and the 3rd positiion I had while teaching at David Lipscomb University - I commuted about 45 miles 5 days a week - and during my position there they provided an old house - which my wife and I fixed up over a period of 4 and half years - I taught at David Lipscomb University for 28 years - because I did not have an advanced degree beyond an MA I was replaced - we had my wifes mother who had Azlhemier and I could not get away to work on an advanced degree - 28 years and I was just terminated with no reason what so ever - not even a thank you for teaching there those many years for very little pay - the person who replaced me RT was a personal friend of XXX (who they say is a homosexual) - he is the culprit who arranged for me to be replaced - I had good repoir with the students and had many students tell me how they appreciated me as a teacher"

It's good to know that your judgment is purely objective.



"As far as churches today trying to be everything to everyone - it won't fly - it is the POWER OF THE GOSPEL that will cause people to serve God - not all these drama plays, 7-11 songs (7 words repeated ll times) - I am no longer preaching today - I have had 3 back operations, and a bout with cancer - and I am in no mood for you liberals who would highjack the church building from older"

First, drama can be every bit as helpful as the old Jule Miller filmstrips (which I watched in my younger days). Second, half of the 7/11 songs get those 7 words directly from scripture. (By the way, don't you love it when people use terms to belittle things you enjoy about church?) Third, I'm glad you're no longer preaching today, if you're half as bitter as you come across. Fourth, if you are actually calling me a liberal, you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. Anyone who knows me would find that label laughable.



"members who have been faithful to attend and give their funds for legitimate reasons (evangelism, and benevolence - not programs that are for shear entertainment - woship is horizontal to vertical - not horizontal to horizontal"

Worship and giving are separate issues. Giving is not entireley vertical either, and worship has a horizontal element (fellowship, teaching, admonishing, etc.)



"yeah, you ought to listen to some of us older people - we might have been born yesterday - but we know when we are being SCAMMED!!!!!!! - and don't bother to respond - I already know where you are coming from - THE ME GENERATION - THE CHANGE AGENT CLAN - we older people prefer just a SIMPLE CHURCH SERVICE - NO WORSHIP COORDINATOR - JUST LEAVE THE SIMPLE EXAMPLE OF CHURCH WORSHIP THAT IS AUTHORIZED IN THE BIBLE ALONE - GO BUILD YOUR OWN CHURCH BUILDING AND CALL IT WHAT EVER YOU WANT - "

Read this very slowly. The only thing in worship you have mentioned so far that could be unscriptural is the mixed gender praise team. It may be different than what you grew up with, but it is not necessarily unscriptural.



"AND AS FAR AS VENTING - YOU DON'T SCARE ME - I WILL VENT ALL I WANT - WHEN I SEE PEOPLE ARE TRYING TO DO IT THEIR WAY INSTEAD OF THE WAY TAUGHT IN THE SCRIPTURES I WILL VENT - PAUL USED EXPISTLES - I USE CONCERNEDMEMBERS.com - WHERE ELSE CAN WE TURN - and no thank you who ever you are - you are too smug to suit me!!!!!"

I'm glad I don't scare you. I think we all know that it's their way vs. your way. I hope you weren't serious with even an accidental comparison of Paul's epistles with this website.

I believe anything anyone says about anything coming out of Lipscomb these days.

Why didn't you just jump into the saddle and tell everyone that the guy DIDN'T preach the sermon he is reported to have preached. Did YOU hear it?

Can YOU get a copy? If he didn't threaten then he is about Unique as a well-trained "Prophet, Chaneller and Facilitator" trained to go out and CHANGE churches.

If he did preach the sermon that way then he is too ignorant to be TRAFFICKING in the free Word of God.

It is a fact that Gad whom God informed to tell David about being assigned a Jebusite High Place for his alternative altar was a SEER and a seer is a STARGAZER. That was because God turned them over to worship the STARRY HOST as a result of musical idolatry at Mount Sinai.

I was invited to respond when this forum opened up and for the specific purpose of warning people about the new viperism flooding out of universities stolen from the church. I HURT mightly when HIRELINGS with no Biblical or historical mandate to be dominate pastors believes that people give him an unlawful and ungodly wage to MAKE CHANGES by deliberately sowing discord.

It is just my nature--and not warped pshche--to try to rescue old widows being raped by thugs trained to be DOCTORS OF THE LAW who take away the key to knowledge. I was very close to a Doctor of the Law who boasted about TAKING OVER Lipscomb BEFORE it happened. I was also close to a member of the JUBILEE groupies who boasted that they would have to run over or do an end run around the older members.

I am used to the charge that to oppose GOD'S ANNOINTEDS is proof that I am psychotic. However, that is PART of the DIVERT from the truth.

I tend to believe anyone who reports about that old FABLE about David: why would he just MAKE IT UP?

Do YOU believe that David punished Michal, permitted human sacrifice of one of her sons or nephews and killed all of Saul's offspring who could threaten his LIKE THE NATIONS monarchy? You cannot possibley preach that fable about David without intending to THREATEN people against vocalizing against the PRIEST.

Ken

Here is the story on the showing of the Super Bowl - the preacher in the bulletin wrote what a great morning breakfast the church had Saturday morning, and what a Great Event Sunday Night. There were two articles about this event, and they never once stated it was the showing of the Super Bowl - were they ashamed to? (I don't think they had the guts to) It is my opinion they were. Also, I personally talked to a member at the church, who told me that the preacher said "Don't tell anyone that I was back there" (it was in the fellowship hall) - what really disturbed me was the fact that they felt some of us older folks would not approve with them tampering with the Sunday night service just to accomodate the showing of the Super Bowl - now for some of you liberals, and change agents - this is what our beef is about - also one of the young elders told me this was a community outreach program - My question is this - when did the church turn into a sports bar? No more gospel meetings. Last year no Vacation Bible School - I see a dangerous trend here - and I am not alone - I state again, if you want to turn everything on its head - and disregard some of us older folks who have donated to this church for many many years and do not approve of these type changes - then be our guests - go build your own building, put any sign you want on it - and teach anything you want - just do not upset us so - where is the respect for older folks? And my final word: what about all those beer commercials, scantily dressed cheerleaders and entertainers, and all the hooplah - sort of reminds me of the events that went on in the Roman collisiem

Especially with all the dying Christians, huh?

btw, Ken removing the intials of the people in your post does not excuse the gossip and slander in your post. Are you planning on repenting and asking forgiveness of those you committed this sin against?
=============================
MESSAGE FROM THE MODERATOR

Please list what you consider gossip and slander, or your post will be considered without merit.

Thank You

Back to remedial, card class 101aaa!

Ken didn't USE any initials and therefore couldn't have REMOVED any initials. I don't know who they are.

My information is that Lipscomb fired a Bible guy for being caught with another guy. You maybe should check up on that.

That is his problem but it could have influenced Anonymous' getting fired. Ask him. I know that at the time a fella I worried about bragged about "we gonna get rid of them old preachers at Lipscomb." And, LO, they did and replaced them with Doctors of the Law Jesus said "take away the key to knowledge." Is you one?

Ken

My post will be considered without merit?

The gossip and slander is the poster saying that the man whose initials you removed was a homosexual.

Without proof, it is gossip and if the man isnt, it is slander.

=====================================
MESSAGE FROM THE MODERATOR

Truth is a defense to gossip and slander.

To the GWCOC member,

YOU have made another great list of things YOU don't like. If at some point you would like to explain the scriptural problem with any of it (since you did teach at Lipscomb way back when it was scriptural), please let us know.



To the editor,

What's with the overediting on this thread?

=====================================
MESSAGE FROM THE MODERATOR

There are things that we think we know.

There are things we don't know.

There are things we think we know, that we don't know.

There are things we think we don't know, but we really know.

Then there are things we don't need to know.

You question falls under the latter.

i happened to be present when the preacher got up and said very clearly that the super bowl would be shown in the fellowship hall and that it was a time to invite friends. now, it may not have been wise to have done it-in fact i don't think it was and didn't go...but it was in no way done in a deceptive way...it was stated very clearly. whoever conerned member here is is lieing about this and several other things and knows it...and if you want., anyone could call and get a tape and hear it for themselves-but most on these pages don't seem to interested in real facts, just innuendos designed to make whoever is this weeks church to "out" look liberal. and by the way it was announced that there was no vbs last year because no on volunteered to direct it - did you volunteer mr concerned member (if not how concerned are you with that anyway)? and it was already announced that one has been scheduled for this year...but the way you write you will be upset if it is geared to be a community event....

and before you jump i don't think he's the best preacher around - but i accept that he is human and does make mistakes - like the rest of us

I know that this site is intended for "concerned members" of various churches to come and post their concerns about what is going on in their bodies. However, my concern is not for the things going on in the body where I worship but what is happening on this site. Not only are you given anonymity if you so choose but the distance and seperation of each person seems to be igniting a flame of rage and anger that needs to be extenguished.

I have only known of this website for a little over a week and have been saddend beyond what I thought possible because of the discord, arguing, slandering, gossiping, judging and overall negative tone of everything that I have seen here. And on top of that, I keep seeing the same individuals that are responding to peoples concerns on all kinds of diffrent threads throughout this website, but instead of offering encouragement and options for people who are genuinely hurting are only fanning the flame of judgement. I never knew there were so many "experts" on the only acceptable ways to worship and on how to interact with your brothers and sisters and how to engage each other in conversation.

I just wonder, if our Father looks at the things that have been said on this particular thread and feels proud of his children?
I feel dirty just from reading it. I feel like I have been drug down into a pit where some of you other guys seem to be satisfied existing and want to pull everyone else down into it with you.

Take this for what it is worth: I will quote staight from God's word so there can be no retort:
"The end of all things is near. Therefore be clear minded and self-controlled so that you can pray. ABOVE ALL, LOVE EACH OTHER DEEPLY, BECAUSE LOVE COVERS OVER A MULTITUDE OF SINS. Offer hospitality to one another without grumbling. Each one should use whatever gifts he has been given to serve others, faithfully administering God's grace in its various forms.
IF ANYONE SPEAKS (TYPES) HE SHOULD DO IT AS ONE SPEAKING THE VERY WORDS OF GOD. If anyone serves, he should do it with the strength God provides, so that in all things God may be praised through Jesus Christ. To him be the glory and the power for ever and ever. Amen!" (I Peter 4:7-11)

Really, men of God, it is time that we put away childish things and "flee the evil desires of youth, and pursue righteousness, faith, love and peace, along with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart. Don't have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels. And the Lord's servant must not quarrel; instead, he MUST BE KIND TO EVERYONE, able to teach, NOT RESENTFUL."

Please give careful thought to the things that you are saying on this web page. Our Father knows the quality of the heart! If you claim the name of Christ as your own then you are my brother and from one brother to another, I love you and do not want to see anyone hurt or mislead into thinking that it is their "right" to say some of the things that are being said on this thread.

Please, from this point on, do your best to honor your Father with all that you say in this place!

Gospel meetings and VBS won't bring people to Christ, but showing the Super Bowl will? When did Paul ever use worldly entertainment to win souls for Christ? And don't say that it was different times back then because God is the same today as He was yesterday and will be in the future.

When did God use buildings, pews, microphones, pulpits, churches, your money, my money, cars, buses, nice clothes, dirty clothes, KJV, NIV, or whatever else we have now that Paul did not have? should we resort back to the practices of old because of what Paul did? I bet your church has a building! Paul never would have used a building! Give it up, Paul would have used a Super Bowl to attract people if they had one back then!

Are there any instances in the Bible where Paul used worldly entertainment of his era to reach souls? If so, please post the book, chapter, and verse so I can look it up.

Thanks!

Acts 17:28b As some of your own poets have said, 'We are his offspring.'

At least one other in one of the epistles.

Is there any instance where Paul use "wordly entertainment" and God commanded him not to? If so I need book, chapter, and verse. It is a stupid argument. Do you really think that if I bring a person to Christ at a Super Bowl Party that God will not count their salvation? Let me know what you think!

Are there any places in the NT where God intructs his people not to use worldly entertainment to reach the lost? If so please post book, chapter, and verse. Also please post each and every case where PAUL gathers the believers on a Sunday morning in their nice clothes and has a church service (complete with an opening prayer followed by three songs, acapella of course, followed by communion (tie required to serve). After passing the plate, Paul then stand and preaches baptism as the only way to heaven. This is followed be 128 verses of "Just As I Am". Then all the lost come down front and are saved by the blood of the Lamb!!!)

I hope that we can all see that God will take the lost into his arms in many different ways. It does not just have to be on Sunday morning. Let me know what you think.

Thanks,
Smitty

>>When did God use buildings, pews, microphones, pulpits, churches, your money, my money, cars, buses, nice clothes, dirty clothes, KJV, NIV, or whatever else we have now that Paul did not have?

You're confusing things used as aids with things that are added to worship.

There's nothing wrong with playing a musical instrument. However, playing a musical instrument while singing praises to God is adding to God's commands...which is against the Word of God.

Lets assume that I buy your argument: Do you mean to tell me that when God commands us to sing he is also saying not to use instruments. That is amazing because my bible never mentions instruments in regards to the worship act. Thats right you say, we are silent where the bible is silent! REALLY, do you have any of the things mentioned above (building, mirophones, youth minister, kitchen, etc.). Then I would claim that you are adding to the word of the Lord. You see the line has become so slanted we don't even see it. How can you say that a microphone is an aid, but a musical instrument is not? I choose to say that an any church that meets in a building is false worship because the first church did not have a building. Therefore you are adding to the word of God and I am calling you out. What? You meet on Wednesday night and have Sunday school? I don't see those in the Bible, that must make you a pagan and false worshipper! I might need to make a new website: www.memberswhoareconcernedaboutconcernedmembers.com

I just don't buy the argument that you gave me. I don't believe that God just stops listening when a instrument is played. I don't believe that he loved to hear David play the harp and then all of a sudden hates musical instruments after Jesus, but never says anything. I don't expect you to buy this, but I thought it is a good discussion!

Thanks,
Smitty

Smitty: the 100% Biblical connection, and that of the Book of Enoch quoted by Jesus, Peter and Jude at least 128 times by my collection, makes it clear that SATAN or LUCIFER brought wind, string and percussion instruments with him/her even into the garden of Eden.

The MARK is that when you let Satan MARK you with the MUSIC - SPIRITUAL WORSHIP connection Apollo's MUSES or LOCUSTS have stung you and you WILL NEVER RECOVER. That is why you ARE NOT and CANNOT hear the Word any more.

The PROOF is that there is no HINT of music in your sense in the Bible: if you will check again you might TRY to read Paul using ideas like "speak that which is written with one MIND and on MOUTH as the ONLY way to Glorify God." The same Paul in Romans 15 shows that Jesue exampled NOT pleasuring one another during "synagogue" time and Paul directly OUTLAWED it. That word means to lift up with excitement or to arouse people, the METHOD is an almost identical word meaning ODING in the pagan sense and the RESULT is that someone is intending to CARRY YOU AWAY FOR THEIR OWN USES. Someone has aroused your church with music intending to TAKE YOU CAPTIVE to paganism.

Now see if you can see the ACT as SPEAKING to one another. I predict that the black ink on white paper will as it has for these 2000 years will read SPEAK, TEACH, ADMONISH but Smitty will internally TRANSLATE that too mean SING TO THE AUDIENCE and make melody WITH A HARP.

NOW, Jesus gave you the approved example of CASTING OUT the musical minstrels just as the city official CAST OUT dung produced in the sacrificial system. He also regulated the flute-girls which was synomyous with PROSTITUTE.

PSALLO: Then Paul used Greek words like PSALLO which is a WARFARE word by which YOU make war in the "synagogue." It is INCLUSIVE in that it means PLUCK WITH THE FINGERS.

It is INCLUSIVE in that it means to PUL.L and suddenly let go as one YANKS out the enemy's hair.

It is EXCLUSIVE in that it means NOT WITH A PLECTRUM.

PSALMOS is a poem where the FIRST INSTRUMENT OF CHOICE is the human voice: it NEVER includes a musical instrument UNLESS that instrument is named. That is because PSALLO means to PLUCK

Paul used the word SPEAK, TEACH and ADMONISH which and used words like PSALLO and PSALMOS and ODE which BY THEIR DEFINITION define HEBREW CANTILLATION which is SPEAKING or READING with a small range of notes or natural inflections of the human voice. IF you cannot hear then you cannot HEAR what the people doing SYNAGOGUE heard and what ALL of the church fathers understood and what ALL of the denominational founders heard and what ALL of the denominations in the USA prior to the hostile takeover of AWAKENINGS and VOODOO music in the 1800s heard CLEARLY.

All but SMITTY look at the following: he has heard it all before but WON'T grasp it because he/she cannot abandon SELF-WORSHIP.

In 1 Cor 13 Paul compared LIFELESS INSTRUMENTS (or Carnal Weapons) to WITCHCRAFT with a hi-tek FAMILIAR SPIRIT or empty wineskin as an echo chamber to get a message from the "gods" or to the SOUNDING BRASS echo chamber which was used as an AMPLIFIER to frighten the enemy into panic. That is the base meaning of PSALLO. Psallo has the BASE meaning of:

Psocho (g5597) pso'-kho; prol. from the same base as 5567; to triturate, i.e. (by anal.) to rub out (kernels from husks with the fingers or hand): - rub.

TRITURATE means to Grind into a FINE POWDER. That was the intention of ALL musical instruments. That included the flute-girls meaning prostitutes who SEDUCED the customers in Corinth to steal their TITHES AND OFFERINGS before they could return home with food for the children.

Psalmos means a SONG. There is NO DEFINITION of "a song played with a harp." You would have to use THREE words: (1) sing, (2) PLUCK and (3) define WHAT is to be plucked.

Otherwise, instrumentalists get their AUTHORITY from the foot of the old towers of babbling where Nimrod had his own Musical Worship Team "to generate morals through external means."

Psalmos EXCLUDES music by INCLUDING cantillation or speaking. It hsas the same meaning as our SONG. When we say "sing us a song" we do NOT mean "with a banjo." and IF we want to ADD the banjo then we must say SING us a SONG and PLAY (pluck) the BANJO. Still can't get it, huh."

Furthermore, Peter warning you about Paul and simplistic treatment of his "scriptures"--hit the ANTI- music theme from so many directions that only those WISHING to ignore the word could handle it with dishonesty. First, look at the word for SONG which is an ODE which excludes instruments and includes SPEAK except in those Greek resources which use Psallo to identify the usual PLUCKING on the harp. We have told you that EVERY example used to prove that Psallo INCLUDES plucking follows the same procedure: you MUST tell people what to PLUCK or they might yank out your hair. In addition, ALL of this plucking of the strings is in the context of homosexual grooming of a young boy where priests ALWAYS had their "youth ministers of the gods."

Psalmos (g5568) psal-mos'; from 5567; a set piece of music,
i.e. a sacred ode
accompanied with
the VOICE,
harp
or other instrument;

a "psalm"); collect. the book of the Psalms: - psalm. Comp. 5603.

Twila Paris or Fanny Crosby or the Voodoo groups who originated "GOSPEL singing" DO NOT write a SACRED ODE.

When the word PSALMOS or SONG is to be sung the HUMAN VOICE is always the FIRST INSTRUMENT OF CHOICE unless you specify OTHERWISE. A BARE-BONES PSALMOS is an ODE and odes EXCLUDES instruments and excludes SINGING in our sense of the word.

Ode (g5603) o-day'; from 103; a chant or "ode" the gen. term for any words sung; while 5215 denotes espec. a religious metrical composition,
and 5568 (psalmos) still more spec. a Heb. CANTILLATION): - song.

Therefore, when you ODE the Psalms or inspired Bible Text you CANNOT have an instrument. If you can't grasp the INTERNAL melody or Grace and insist on using a HARP then Peter's warning is for YOU.

If you again ODE you have to shut your machine's MOUTH.

Using PSALLO we have shown you you can ONLY PLUCK strings which means to yank the string and suddenly LET GO to twang or LEAVE A MARK. That is because Apollo or Abaddon is the FATHER of musical melody and always plucked his BOW and his LYRE in the same event.

Because you rest the deliberate sowing of discord on PSALLO, you cannot STRUM or use a PICK. You cannot blow a flute (meaning to pollute or prostitute) you cannot beat on the cymbal which is a SYMBOL of the LOCUSTS in Hebrew.

According to the Britannica "Melody as TUNEFULNESS belongs to the 19th century." Even then, melody DEMANDS a series of SINGLE TONES and would OUTLAW harmony.

You see, the definition of an ODE makes it CLEAR that PSALMOS is a HEBREW CANTILLATION. You cannot SING and CANTILLATE at the same time any more than you can WALK and RUN at the same time.

By the pale moon light you can SEE that Paul used the word SPEAK. That means speak as in speak.

The SPEAKING was one to another to TEACH: you cannot SPEAK with your guitar pick or by body worship. Paul called them LIFELESS INSTRUMENTS which means CARNAL WEAPONS. You cannot battle principalities and powers in high places who BROUGHT you music to DIVERT you from God's Word by the use of INSTRUMENTS which all authorities admit are claimed to connect to the Devil or Lucifer "the singing and harp playing prostitute.'

The purpose as in the SYNAGOGUE OF CHRIST where He invites the twos and threes to "come learn of me" was to SPEAK, to TEACH and to ADMONISH.


There was a LAW against "playing instruments and making a joyful noise before the Lord" when you ASSEMBLED which was only for instructions, to read or rehearse the Word.

In Romans 15 PLEASURING (charismatic) is outlawed because the assembly was to GLORIFY GOD using one MIND and one MOUTH and speaking "that which is written." Those songs and sermons were written by the Spirit of Christ.

That is the meaning of ODEING or SPEAKING which was always UNISON until witchcraft and voodoo got into "gospel music" in the 19th century AWAKENINGS which were quite identical to devil worship in Iraq.

Paul warned in Ephesians 5 "don't get drunk with wine." That was a POINTY word which points to the Greek gatherings where one got FLUTED or PIPED down with wine: music and wine make a successful BUSINESS.

"But perhaps nothing was more characteristic of the mystery religions than what they called ecstasy. Believers in the mystery religions sought to cultivate a magical, sensuous communion with the divine. They would do almost anything to get themselves into a semiconscious, hallucinatory, hypnotic, or orgiastic spell in which they believed they were sensually in contact with deity. Some used wine to assist in the euphoric experience, as Paul implied in Ephesians 5:18. Whether from literal intoxication or emotional exhilaration, when worshipers fell into a state of euphoria, it was as if they had been drugged. They assumed they were in contact with God. (MacArthur, John, Charismatic Chaos, p. 164. Zondervan)

This EMOTIONAL drunkeness was not from just drinking wine as people don't drink wine without MUSIC to take more money from the customer. The word Paul used is used to mean to PIPE DOWN or FLUTE DOWN with wine. Because the wine was often fairly mind, the INTOXICATION was defined as spiritual intoxication with passion and pride.

If you ODE the PSALMS Paul has told the AWAKE people that the MODE is not MUSICAL but is COMMANDED to be CANTILLATION. Cantillation is simply raising the pitch of the voice and stretching out the syllables with the normal inflection of SPEAK in order to make your voice heard by a crowd. There was no charismatic SINGING and no INSTRUMENTS in the synagogue or School of the Bible. They spoke the word, Jesus SPOKE the Word, Paul SPOKE the Word and DIRECTLY COMMANDED that we SPEAK the Word.

We have shown you that the MUSICAL words Paul EXCLUDED by INCLUDING the human voice and heart as the INSTRUMENT speak of the homosexual wine and music festivals. They also specificially INCLUDE the form of HEBREW CANTILLATION and that EXCLUDES a Musical worship Team of strange guys promising to LEAD YOU INTO THE PRESENCE OF GOD. They produce intoxication in fact, this was often seen as DRUNK ON IGNORANCE.

Ken

Smitty

WE have shown you that a PSALMOS is a song and the FIRST INSTRUMENT OF CHOICE is the human voice unless otherwise specified. ANY song can be accompanied but SONG does not INCLUDE playing instruments.

Paul put the MELODY pr PSALLO in the heart because you PLUCK THE HEART STRINGS and you do not PLUCK harp strings. ALL of the literature would identify your PLUCKING as grooming a young "boy minister" whom you intended to PLUCK but only after his pubic hair was PLUCKED. Furthermore, PSALLO is rooted in SHOOTING a literal or LOVE ARROW from a bow. That is why it is a WARFARE word and Paul outlawed warfare for the assembly or synagogue or school of the Bible.

Furthermore, the word ODE further defines PSALMOS as in Hebrew CANTILLATION. That is the normal inflections of what Paul commanded-SPEAK-with the marks for emphasis or commentary.

Paul made that IMPOSSIBLE to misunderstand when he said speak with "One MInd and One Voice using 'that which is written' as the only way to glorify God.

There is only ONE worship word attached to the church which Paul identified as a SYNAGOGUE: that is GIVING HEED to the Word of God. In Romans 15 Paul defines the SPEAKING role as ONE to ANOTHER, using THAT WHICH IS WRITTEN, spoken with one MIND and one MOUTH as the ONLY way to Glorify God: you cannot glorify God by speaking out of your own spirit.

The SABBATH meant REST and specificially quarantined the people from the SABBATH day worship which was pagan and where the people served the AGENT of the gods in feeding, clothing, singing to, playing instruments to and having SEX with the agents of the Gods. The "staff infection" was much like that defined in Revelation 18:22 and this included prostitutes where the "singers were always the harem of the god." The Sabbath as "worship," the music and the tithe were ALL and ARE all the product of Babylon.

Both the first and seventh days were at times set aside for REST and a Holy Convocation. That means to READ or REHEARSE whatever part of the Word of God they had or had memorized as the PURPOS of what we call "singing." This EXCLUDED sending out priests or Levites as MINISTERS and it EXCLUDED speaking your own words.

Next, the word EDIFICATION cannot be accomplished by RITUAL CEREMONIALS which Jesus died to remove because the LADED BURDEN is "spiritual anxiety created by religious rituals." Getting aroused to PLEASURING is what Paul in Romans 15 said that JESUS would not do and OUTLAWED it for the SYNAGOGUE. Finally, EDIFICATION has ONLY to do with EDUCATION and not with creating a MENTAL STATE by using MIND CONTROL machinery:

Aedificatio, . Abstr., the act of building, a building or constructing. II. Concr., a building, a structure, edifice,

III. Figurative, building up, instructing, edification. Absolute: loquitur ad Aedificationem Ecclesiae, Vulg. 1 Cor. 14, 12 ; ib. Eph. 4, 12.


Loquor a. [Sanscr. lap-, to talk, whisper; Gr. lak-, elakon, laskô], to speak, talk, say (in the language of common life, in the tone of conversation; cf. Quint. 9, 4, 10; 11, 3, 45).


The ODE defines a PSALMOS as performed in CANTILLATION. The "singing" would be the NORMAL inflection of conversation. That is why the command is to SPEAK and not to SING in a musical sense. The LAW of silence EXCLUDES anything more. In the same way, the word PSALLO used by pagans to justify INSTRUMENTAL MUSIC is INCLUSIVE by saying "plucking ONLY with the fingers." It is EXCLUSIVE by saying NEVER WITH THE PLECTRUM."

B. Act. 1. To speak out, to say, tell, talk about, mention, utter, name, declare, show, indicate or express clearly

MESSENIO By my troth, young man, prithee, tell me your name, unless it's disagreeable.

Latin of Loquor

Piphauskô, make manifest, show, 3. c. acc. et inf., tell one to do, A.Eu. 620

II. Med., make manifest, show, anthrôpoisi p. ta ha kêla Il. 12.280 , cf. 21.333; make known, disclose,

The OPPOSITE of Loquor for EDIFICATION is:

laskô in contrast also means:
I. to RING, rattle, crash, lake CHALKOS (instruments of 1 Cor 13)
Il.; lake d' ostea the bones cracked, broke with a crash, id=Il.

The language is EXCLUSIVE to outlaw MAKING MUSIC as a way to teach or edify. If you read the word you don't HAVE to make up your own law of silence such as: "God had NOT said DON'T play instruments so we gonna do it 'spite of hell."

THE PLACE FOR EDIFICATION

Ecclesia ekklêsia, an assembly of the (Greek) people.

The ekklesia in a legal sense was like a county court. They heard evidence and made legal decisions. If a flute player tried to PERFORM they would cast him out as an ignorant pervert. Paul speaks of the assembly as a SYNAGOGUE and "there was no praise service in the synagogue" any more than a sane person would MAKE MUSIC when the preacher is speaking

Women did not SPEAK in the synagogue and that is why PASTORS hate the epistles which define a SYNAGOGUE and not a pagan worship center.

Similar Greek

Agoreuô ( [agora] ) speak in the assembly, who wishes to address the house?

2. generally, speak, say,
3. proclaim, to have it proclaimed that . . , a. the law declares,
4. Pass., to be delivered

Jesus CLEARLY repudiated the clergy who were like children singing and playing in the marketplace where rhetoricians sold SPEECHES and prostitutes sold themselves. They PIPED hoping to get Jesus and others into the SINGING and DANCING performed in the AGORA. This would radically let the "children" sing and play in the ekklesia which would have gotten them transported to an institute, in the synagogue which was a SCHOOL of the church which would probably have gotten you killed. No singers or musicians were ever permitted even in the secular TYPE of the body or Church of Christ even to clean out the garbage.


And as they departed, Jesus began to say unto the multitudes concerning John, What went ye out into the wilderness to see? A reed shaken with the wind? Matt 11:7

The MULTITUDES assembled by the walls like people seeking out those who could sing beautiful songs and play well on instruments: for they listen but WILL NOT DO. They sought out even God and Ezekiel as they would SEEK OUT the homosexual performers because the LAST ACT was what they were lusting for.

The homosexual musical performers used the THYRUS. Like Judas the Sicarri or Assassin, it was a spear tipped with a pine cone. When YOU bowed before them you often got two kinds of shafts. They SHOOK these reeds as an invitation. Therefore, Jesus asked of the MULTITUDES:

But what went ye out for to see? A man clothed in SOFT raiment? behold, they that wear soft clothing are in kings houses. Matt 11:8

The SOFT clothing meant that they went out seeking a DOG or CATAMITE. That is why they were WORSE than Sodom and Jerusalem is defined by John as Sodom.

But whereunto shall I liken this generation? It is like unto children sitting in the markets [Agora], and calling unto their fellows, Matt 11:16

And saying, We have piped unto you, and ye have not danced; we have mourned unto you, and ye have not lamented. Matt 11:17

The children, especially young boys, were often the "youth ministers" who were the CHORUS LEADERS. The understanding that they were the "staff" of the pagan priesthood which was always perverted.

The singing, dancing and wailing was often the PAIN of being initiated after BOWING to Baal. They made a great noise to HIDE the pain from others.

No one believed that one had a right to change what their "god" had delivered:

Aeschylus, Eumenides (ed. Herbert Weir Smyth, Ph. D.) Orestes

Apollo [Note, AThene threw away the flute because it made her mouth ugly and herself seem abnormal]

I will speak justly before you, Athena's great tribunal,--since I am a prophet, I cannot lie. [615] I have never yet, on my oracular throne, said anything about a man or woman or city that Zeus, the father of the Olympians, did not command me to say.

Learn how strong this plea of justice is; and I tell you to obey the will of my father; [620] for an oath is not more powerful than Zeus.

What you FEEL is self-worship. Edification on the other hand is EDUCATION which comes through the pastors (elders) "teaching that which has been taught." A Christian is a baptized DISCIPLE and the role of the church is TEACHING and LEARNING. That is especially true of what we label as SINGING which is clearly defined as TEACHING THE INSPIRED WORD.

EDIFICATION is INCLUSIVE and has the same meaning of DISCIPLING: meaning to teach the word.

EDIFICATION is EXCLUSIVE by outlawing forms other than speech of the NORMAL CONVERSATION. That would EXCLUDE trained rhetoricians or sophists or singers or musicians.

If everything else fails, just use common sense about what is appropriate when Jesus is our ONLY RABBI and promises to be with us so that as HE said "you can come LEARN of me." Therefore, we have Jesus affirming that EDIFICAITION is EDUCATON.

Someone intends to hurt YOU in order to TAKE CAPTIVE your church. It doesn't matter if they have a hundred Phds: they are all absolutely ignorant of the Word of God and the 100% connection of MUSIC as worship to Satan, prostitutes, Sodomites or the Levitical Warrior noise makers serving the priests as they slaughtered tens of thousands of TYPES of God in Christ.

It was prophesied that Judas would try that on Jesus and the Clergy which was always tainted by Zeus or Dionysus worship TRIED to get Jesus into the PLUCKING singing and dancing while they PIPED.

The only other alternative is that they are agents of Satan: sons of the Devil Jesus would say because they SPEAK ON THEIR OWN.

As a member of the Granny White church, not as long as the person who penned this piece, I would like to respond to the information that has been posted here by this person.

Lets take these one at a time:

"We have a preacher that publicly in the pulpit takes it out on people that have said anything to him face to face"

I think it was very prudent for him to address your concerns in front of the church so that everyone could hear his response to that particular situation. If he did not, you or anyone else could mis-represent what he said about the subject. This way everyone hears what he says.

"Gifts to the elders during service"

I think you missed the whole point of his sermon which was the gifts that are given to us are from God and that we should enjoy giving gifts to each other, but we should always keep in mind the greatest gift that was given, God's Son sacrificed for our sins.

"Wreaths on the door of the Church"

Do I believe we should celebrate Christmas as a religious holiday? Nope. Should it have been done? Probably not, but isn’t that just a bit over the top to get upset about?

"Joysuckers sermon and his salary?"

It's true that there are members of the Lord's Church that are "Joysuckers". They enjoy taking the joy out of other people by continuing complaining about what is or is not going on in the work of their local congregation. And what does that have to do with what a man makes as a preacher. My father was a preacher and still is, he doesn’t preach for the money, he preaches because he believes that is what God wants him to do. My father never made that kind of money preaching, but that's because the congregations he preached at could not afford to pay him that kind of salary, but they paid him what they could afford. Why do you begrudge him the salary that he is being paid? Is it jealousy? Is it envy? Only you can answer that question.

"Two services 4 and 6 pm"

I'm not sure but I do not recall a commandment in the New Testament about what time we were supposed to worship, but I do recall that Christians were instructed by Paul that they should submit to the authority of the Elders and if the Elders said that it was ok, then you can either submit to the Elders authority or and I hate to be blunt, but you can start attending another congregation that you CAN accept the Elders authority. I do not see anything that goes against the scriptures here with the two worship times. Oh and by the way, just because something is held in the fellowship hall of the church building, DOES NOT MAKE IT A CHURCH EVENT.

"Right now we are not meeting the budget"

You are correct we are not meeting the budget, but is that a problem? If we find that we cannot meet the obligations that we have set aside, do you not feel that God will take care of everything? I think he will. Of course this also refers to your last line, which in another post that you do not want to give money to support the works at Granny White. So why are you concerned about making the budget if you do not want to support the budget we have?

"Membership is falling?

Since when? Our membership is at one of the highest levels it has been in quite a long time. We have more young people and younger couples that we have EVER HAD. You should know this or at least acknowledge that 20 years ago we had one teenager, ONE! Now we have over almost a hundred youngsters between the ages of newborn and high school.

"When Elders are appointed - guess who comes up with the recommended names - the elders - never the congregation - we are not even given this choice."

I know most of the elders personally and I know that if you had a person that you would like to nominate for elder, they would be more than happy to listen. In fact if you would like to mention their names here, I will makes sure to mention them to the elders for you. So we really do have a choice now don’t we?

"Right now we have 3 or 4 elders out of 7 that are Lipscomb professors or have been - Woodmont Hills went the way of the community church - and I believe Lipscomb professors had a lot to do with it"

First of all the men you are referring to, Dr. Dennis Loyd, Dr. John Parker, Dr. George O'Connor are or were professors at Lipscomb. So? We also have an elder who worked for the Public School System, one who has his own business, two that are retired, ect..ect.. What does that have to do with anything? The person or persons that led Woodmont Hills down the road it went on was Ruby Shelly, and yes there were some elders at Woodmont Hills that were professors at Lipscomb. There were also Christians in Caesar's household? Did that make the responsible for the executions of Christians by the Roman government? Come on you can do better than that.

"Missions committee"

Well this might be long. I am a member of the mission committee and I am NO ONES CRONIE. I resent the fact that you have absolutely no idea what goes on in the mission committee meetings. You do not know how many people that we support as far as a student here or a student there who go to do mission work during their summer holidays from school. And in the case of the person that you are talking about, again you have no idea what went on. If you want to come by at church this week and ask me I will be happy to tell you everything that we do, and again, nothing we do goes through without the approval of the Eldership, oh wait there is that "authority" thing again. You want to discuss the mission committee and how many hundreds of requests that we have from young men and women who WANT to go, mind you WANT to go and teach the gospel in different parts of this and other countries, I am available anytime to talk with you as well as the chairman of the committee, or the elder that oversees the committee. And if at anytime you have any concrete evidence that the person or persons that we send to missionary fields is a "false teacher", brother you better come with the facts and not innuendos and hearsay.

"We no longer have gospel meetings?"

You are right we need to have more gospel meetings. No question about it, does that mean I think the Granny White church is going liberal? Please. Granny White is nowhere near going liberal and you know it. You haven’t mention one thing that we do so far that in shape, form or fashion is un-Biblical or un-Scriptural. These are just your feelings and nothing else. Again, if these bother you, please find somewhere else that you want to attend that does things the way YOU want them to be done, after all its all about how you want them done now isn't it?

"Last year we did not even have Vacation Bible School."

You're right again, we did not and the reason we did not is because no one stepped up and said I will help put this together. The ones who usually step up and volunteer were busy doing other works for the Lord. The question I have is, if it was so much of a problem for you, why didn’t YOU stand up and volunteer. The rest of us would have loved to have someone else do it for a change. In fact do you ever do anything? Do you participate in worship as far as leading the congregation in worship, i.e. Bible readings, wait on the Lord's Table, and say a prayer? Again you have to answer those questions for yourself. Isn't it amazing that 80% of the work is done by 20% of the people and that 100% of the complaining is done by those who don’t lift a finger to teach a bible school class, lead a prayer, read a scripture, pass the communion or do ANYTHING to help expand the Lord's Kingdom.

Now you know who I am, because I have posted my name and email address here. I will talk to you anytime about anything that has to do with those things that the Granny White church is doing that you disagree with, but I WILL NOT LISTEN to criticism from someone who does absolutely nothing to help build the Lord's Kingdome. YOU JUST DO NOT HAVE THE RIGHT.

When I hear things about the church which may or may not have merit in my mind, I do what I have been taught to do, and continue to teach others to do, from a young age, which is to go to the scriptures and pray. Every congregation is different, yet every congregation has the same purpose. To win as many as possible for the Lord. We meet on the first day of the week because that's what the first church did. There seems to be a universal time in the United States, i.e. 10:00 in the morning in which the church meets. Is that wrong? No. Is it right? No. As long as it's the first day of the week. But this is trivial stuff which I'm sure would be resolved if people looked to the scriptures. We are commanded to teach the truth in love. And how are we supposed to do this if the scriptures are not considered.

Formal three day Gospel meetings? Boring. I'm not sure about anyone else, and how they feel about this speciffically, but every day is like how a gospel meeting should be to me. I find nothing more thrilling than going out to my car to get my Bible while waiting tables to answer questions about my faith using scripture. And what is more encouraging is when they come back every Sunday night to ask more questions. Even when a Baptist preacher comes in and asks me what role I play in the church being a young woman, I am able to answer in confidence using the Bible that my role in the church is to answer his questions.

As a person who is generally concerned with current events, I find that if God's love is spread first and foremost, conversion can come with time and prayer. Isn't that the intention of a gospel meeting? To spark something within a person which we, as christians, always knew was there.

I respect the leadership of the Granny White Congrgation. After falling away and coming back to the Lord countless times, I have always found it is a stable source of encouragement. I admire each one of the elders for listening to my questions and concerns, this web page being one of them. I don't think I could find any group of people more fit for this kind of service than them.

So, Mr. Concerned Member, get off your rocker, and quit throwing your tantrums and quit criticizing everyone else and look at how the church which meets at Granny White influences your life. It is your choice how happy you are with your church. I found that out a long time ago and I'm only 20 years old. I know, 20 years old? But if I'm called young and ignorant, it won't be the first time, but I have been a Christian for the past nine years, and that's something to be proud of. If you have a problem with the Granny White congregation, don't be so shaddy as to make us this forum on this website. Please ask the ELDERS the LEADERS of the congregation to adress yours problems publically. We as Americans have gotten out of the 20's, 30's, 40's and 50's style of "church" and in my mind gone back to the Great Commission to go out, teach preach, all over the world. If there is a problem with this my good sir, please don't bother a flourishing congregation with your criticisms.

Now I'm a little angry. So what I'm going to do, is go say a little prayer and try to get down and help the volunteers at Disaster Relief. Hope to see you there........

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We attended Lord's Day morning worship at Granny White on Dec. 25, 2005 and were impressed and filled with compassion for the fact that the preacher, having just buried his mother the day before, presented an excellent sermon.

However, the entire song service was stirctly a "Christmas" service, as would have been observed in any denomination in town. After three attempts to correspond with the preacher, the elders or anyone would respond with no reply, I must assume that they do not wish to have their apostate inclinations pointed out to them.

Sometimes I don't understand God. He put elders in place in the Granny White congregation, and apparently made the wrong choice. All he had to do was send you there to visit one day, and all would be saved from certain damnation.

They probably did not respond to you because they were afraid to hear how bad God was going to punish them for celebrating the arrival on earth of His son. The greatest person ever born- past or future.

You should start a Rent-An-Elder business. I'm sure many would benefit.

Gully, you are WAY behind. That was in the old MODERN era. You know, before all truth got sucked into a black hole and we gotta wait till it comes out of a white hole but in the meantime we gotta "partner with God" to work out a new set of scriptures.

Now, we buddies select buddies who maybe has money who maybe doesn't rock the boat.

What the olden Bible said and meant that people are made elders by their OWN spirit: meaning that they are already "laboring to the point of exhaustion in preaching and teaching.

Now, preacher-creature calls the shots.

What? I did not follow that line of reasoning at all, can you please re-explain?

Craig,
I think I've found the problem here. We aren't using the right version of the Bible at GW. We have the NKJV in the pews, many people use the NIV, NASB or the new English Standard Version for personal study. Dale has even quoted from the Message and the Living Bible on occasion from the pulpit. The only spirit those versions talk about Elders having is the HOLY SPIRIT.

This other version Ken is using, the olden Bible, talks about an elder being qualified because of his own spirit and laboring to exhaustion? My bible talks about Elders like this:

1 The saying is trustworthy: If anyone aspires to the office of overseer, he desires a noble task. 2 Therefore an overseer must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3 not a drunkard, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. 4 He must manage his own household well, with all dignity keeping his children submissive, 5 for if someone does not know how to manage his own household, how will he care for God's church? 6 He must not be a recent convert, or he may become puffed up with conceit and fall into the condemnation of the devil. 7 Moreover, he must be well thought of by outsiders, so that he may not fall into disgrace, into a snare of the devil.
1 Tim 3:1-7 (ESV)

I don't see exhaustion anywhere in that list as a requirement. I don't see preaching in the list either. I know of some excellent teachers who can't preach. Maybe Titus says something to support Ken.

5 This is why I left you in Crete, so that you might put what remained into order, and appoint elders in every town as I directed you— 6 if anyone is above reproach, the husband of one wife, and his children are believers and not open to the charge of debauchery or insubordination. 7 For an overseer, as God's steward, must be above reproach. He must not be arrogant or quick-tempered or a drunkard or violent or greedy for gain, 8 but hospitable, a lover of good, self-controlled, upright, holy, and disciplined. 9 He must hold firm to the trustworthy word as taught, so that he may be able to give instruction in sound doctrine and also to rebuke those who contradict it.
Titus 1:5-9 (ESV)

Nope. Not here either. I don't think Ken's version flies here. But one thing I did notice in looking up these verses - I read a passage that's all too pertinent.

10 For there are many who are insubordinate, empty talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision party. 11 They must be silenced, since they are upsetting whole families by teaching for shameful gain what they ought not to teach.
Titus 1:10-11 (ESV)

There are many on this board who spread gossip and lies or make judgements on people they haven't even met. Technology has changed but the problems haven't. I hope we all take notice and behave as if Jesus was beside us because... He is!

Barry

Well finally someone has answered my question without all the gobble-dee-goop that I have seen. Isnt it funny that all someone has to do is actually go to the scriputres to find the answer.

Amazing how that works.

Thank you, Barry.

The obvious mercinaries in Corinth seemed to be saying that "Paul didn't take money from you because his letters are not WORTH anything." He declared that he was not inferior to the "super apostles"

In 2 Corinthians he isentified the MARKS of a true evangelists including:

Giving no offence (stumbling block) in any thing, that the ministry be not blamed: 2 Cor 6:3

But in all things approving our selves as the ministers (DEACONS) of God, in much patience, in afflictions, in necessities, in distresses, 2 Cor 6:4

In STRIPES, in imprisonments, in tumults, in labours, in watchings, in fastings; 2 Cor 6:5

As the "deacons" filled with the Holy Spirit in Acts must "hold the mystery of the faith in a good conscience," the elders must be qualified by the qualities of THEIR OWN spirit as a "suffering servant." God cannot use anyone else.

By (our) pureness, by (our) knowledge, by (our) longsuffering, by (our) kindness, by the (our) Holy SPIRIT, by (our) love unfeigned, 2 Cor 6:6

By the (His) word of truth, by the (His) power of God, by the (His) armour of righteousness on the right hand and on the left, 2 Cor 6:7

By (our) honour and (our) dishonour, by (our) evil report and good report: (REGARDED) as deceivers, and yet true; 2 Cor 6:8

The LABOR is defined by the word:

Kopiao (g2872) kop-ee-ah'-o; from a der. of 2873; to feel fatigue; by impl. to work hard: - (bestow) labour, toil, be wearied.

I beseech (beg) you, brethren, (ye know the house of Stephanas, that it is the firstfruits of Achaia, and that they have ADDICTED themselves to the ministry (diakonia) of the saints,) 1 Cor 16:15

That ye submit yourselves unto such, and to every one that helpeth with us, and LABOURETH (co-labor). 1 Co.16:16

All old men are ELDERS: no doubt. However, SOME elders are involved in LABORING in the WORD and DOCTRINE. First, see how Paul defined PREACHING (which excludes fairy tales and jokes)

1 Tim 4:12 Let no man despise thy youth; but be thou an example of the believers, in word, in conversation, in charity, in spirit, in faith, in purity.

1 Tim 4:13 Till I come, give attendance to READING , to exhortation, to doctrine.

That means preaching. Paul told Timothy to ignore the "preacher tales," In Rome they were to speak "that which is written" or "scripture" and that is the ONLY "worship" word Paul uses. Now, see that the elders ARE the unique Pastor-Teachers (Eph 4) of the Local Flock. Preaching as in telling tales arrived at about the same time that SINGING as an ACT of worship invaded the church: about 373.

HERE ARE THE PREACHERS IN TITUS:

Titus 1:8 But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate;

Titus 1:9 Holding fast the faithful word as he HATH BEEN TAUGHT, that he may be able by sound DOCTRINE both to EXHORT and to CONVINCE the gainsayers.

Rather than HIRE them, the elder's job is to STOP THEM SHORT?

Titus 1:10 For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision:


Mataiologia (g3150) mat-ah-yol-og-ee'-ah; from 3151; random talk, i.e. babble: - vain jangling.

1 Tim 1:6 From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;

Titus 1:11 Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses,teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucres sake.

Notice elsewhere that RULE means to "teach that which has been taught." Obey or submit means to "give heed to their words and WATCH the outcome of their lives." There is NO command authority in the church other than from Jesus Christ.

HERE ARE THE PREACHERS IN 1 TIM

1Ti 5:17 Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who LABOR in the WORD and DOCTRINE.

kop-iaô -to be tired, grow weary, II. work hard, toil, Ev.Matt.6.28, etc.; meth' hêdonês k. Vett.Val.266.6 ; eis ti 1 Ep.Ti.4.10 , cf. Ep.Rom.16.6; en tini 1 Ep.Ti.5.17 ; epi ti LXX Jo.24.13 : c. inf., strive, struggle, mê kopia zêtein Lyr.Alex.Adesp.37.7

kop-os A. striking, beating, II. toil and trouble, suffering, II. toil and trouble, suffering, from very weariness, 3. work, exertion,

You HONOR all OLD people but you give an HONORARIUM (not a wage) to the PREACHERS as the only Pastor-Teachers of an established congregation. Honorarium includes private gifts.

That's what I think: if THEY don't have the bruises are can't wait for "church" to be over so they can hit dunkin donut or the golf course should hand in their SLAVE'S BADGE.

Anyone more 'APT to chase a coon than APT to teach the Bible better get ready for burning times."

The word PREACH means a HERALD: A herald takes the good news from its source OUT to where it is needed. A LOCATED HERALD is an oxymoron (fitting). The Athenian Laws OUTLAWED actors (rhetoricians) or POETS because they always EMBELLISHED the message and got people killed. The word SPEAK is defined as opposite MUSIC. Performance PREACHING is one of the crafts of the HYPOCRITES and is "musical" and outlawed.

There is not even a REMOTE connection between sermonizing and versifying and the SCHOOL OF THE BIBLE Which Jesus founded to get the BURDEN LADERS off our backs so that being "competent to teach one another' we speak with ONE MIND and ONE MOUTH using "that which is written or scripture" in order to edify or educate, glorify God and not the hypocritics or performers and KEEP THE UNITY which is destroyed by the spiritual warfare of "clanging twanging complex harmony." You watch the persona in the pulpit and you will not see any suffering servants walking in the steps of Jesus or Paul.

Ken,

For someone who is "shut-in" and I am sorry for your physical problems, you have no idea WHO the elders are at Granny White, obviously. You need to at least request that you get a copy of every sermon, which is available on tape and or CD, whichever you prefer. I will be happy to put you on the mailing list so that you then can have an oportunity to tear apart each lesson, based on your "olden" Bible.

Here are our Elders: Dr. Dennis Loyd, a preacher and English professor. Dr. Loyd fills in at the pulpit from time to time when needed and is an excellent speaker and quite firmly based in the scriptures.

Dr. John Parker, also a preacher and a professor of English who fills in at the pulpit from time to time when needed and also is an excellent speaker and quite firmly based in the scriptures.

Dr. James E. Ward, a professor of Library Science who is very founded in the scriptures and although not a pulpit preacher has brought many souls to Christ.

Dr. George O'Connor, a professor of Science who is very gounded in the scriptures and teaches in our Bible classes, i.e. teacher.

Hoyte Snow, a retired Principal from the Metro School System who is an inspiration to me personally. He is a man who is dedicated to the Lord and doing whatever he can to inspire, encourage and help others to Christ.

Michael Cochrane, a business owner, who teaches in our Bible classes and has brought many souls to Christ, i.e. teacher.

Ronnie Farris, works for the Postal Service and is also a Bible teacher (there's that teaching thing) who has forgotten more about the scriputures than most people remember. He is an encourger who tries to uplight and build up the flock whereever and whenever he can.

Now, these are the men who lead us at Granny White. They are teachers and preachers of the gospel, which I belive from your ramblings is exaxtly what you believe Elders should do.

You need to make sure that you know what you are talking about before you start rambling on about the Elders at Granny White not being teachers. And according to Paul, I believe all Elders are RESPONSIBLE for the congregations that they oversee, but the Elders of one church can not tell the Elders of another church how to oversee THEIR flock. Those Elders will answer to God for the way they oversaw the flock, each flock individually.

So if Paul tells us that every church is seperate from the other in how the Elders oversee, may I ask what gives YOU the RIGHT to pass judgement on a these men? And I can guarantee you that the Eldership at Granny White has in no shape, form or fashion led the congregation at Granny White towards the "change agents" that you rant and rave about.

Please, stop fueling the fire that is trying to be started by men and women at Granny White that disagree with everything that happens, but dont raise a finger to do ANYTHING. Stick with what you know Mr. Sublett, please, because YOU DON'T KNOW GRANNY WHITE!!

Craig, you do need to get some control there.

These forums are OPEN and not everything that spins off is about YOU or YOURS.

For those that are having trouble and claim they are not elligible for dialog with the elders, I try to fill in the blanks with some BIBLICAL stuff that will help them with their shortfall.

I thought that I heard my name used and responded to BARRY and his considered dialog. I THOUGHT that I quoted some clear Bible--at least my computer tries to clip out the verses in contex without "preachercating" or "musicating."

Unless you are on the unlawful dole I don't understand why the tantrum. Now, maybe you would like to DIALOG (that got changed into preaching) and tell me what is wrong with what I said. If it doesn't FIT then don't get paranoid.

Ken,

Open forum? If I am not mistaken you responded under the Granny White church forum, not an OPEN forum, which gives the impression of those reading that you are directing your comments specifically about them. I believe it is under the Granny White church of Christ topic, is it not?

Maybe there should just be an open forum topic for people, like yourself to express their views.

I'm not upset, nor do I have a temper, I was just reacting to your comment under the topic of the Granny White church. It also wasnt a tantrum.

As far as providing Biblical "stuff" about shortfalls, does that include you and your shortfalls? Or is it just for those who disagree with you?

And, pray tell what is "unlawful dole". I think I follow what you're saying, but I want to be sure what you mean before I respond.

Barry addressed my views of the eldership as LABORING in preaching and teaching: there is no corporate duties there.

I took the liberty to respond by quoting the Bible.

Seems you may prove the point that people don't want to be tested.

Those on the DOLE are those who preach in the modern sense of the word when the elders have NO AUTHORITY to invent a "job description for them" always to attract people. If they cannot do their job as Pastor-Teacher then they are not qualified in any sense of the word.

All of history repudiates the office of PREACHER because to PREACH is to be a herald or a Paul Revere. There are no located Paul Reveres. That is up to the elders if the people coerced by "the law of giving" are happy to be fleeced. However, when preachers assume the role of Pastor Person they USURP the role of the community of believers and I assume the authority to teach that which has been taught.

Preaching in the modern sense (beyond reading and doing expository) was one of the early heresies along with SINGING as an ACT of worship added in the year 373 in order to sing the composers OWN "scripture."

So, people who refuse to respond to the OWNERS need to understand that whatever church is posting what they perceive as exclusion from the process and decisions made with a high, unauthorized hand, I intend to let them know that:

There is NO law of preaching as a ACT of worship and NO preacher unless he has a GO button.

There is no LAW OF SINGING: the definition of the ekklesia (synagogue) SPEAKING specificially excludes MUSIC. Paul narrowly defined the material as "that which is written" or "Scripture" which includes Biblical "Psalms, hymns and spiritual songs."

There is no LAW OF GIVING and assuredly no LAW OF TITHING.

Now, if people want to USURP the authority fo the membership I intend to make sure that it is an UNFUNDED LEGALISM, and to UNLEASH them from the fear induced by the LAWS of church.

You are invited to defend the repudiation of the Bible and Restoration movement of CHURCH as "a school of the Bible" and explain how and why it was turned into a pagan WORSHIP CENTER.

If people GIVE in a free will sense THEY NEVER LOSE OWNERSHIP and my goal is to pry the dead monkeys off people's back.

Ken,

If I understand you correctly you are saying that:

Preachers should not be paid

Singing is not an act of worship

Preaching is not an act of worship

Giving is not an act of worship

So since you have obviously narrowed the field, please explain to me when Christians "meet together on the first day of the week" what are the Biblical Acts of Worship?

Craig

Ken,

If I understand you correctly you are saying that:
Preachers should not be paid
Singing is not an act of worship
Preaching is not an act of worship
Giving is not an act of worship

So since you have obviously narrowed the field, please explain to me when Christians "meet together on the first day of the week" what are the Biblical Acts of Worship?

Craig

What I am saying is that when people USURP the authority of the BODY of believers and deny them the right to have a "place at the table" they are being LEGALISTIC. Therefore, I have to go legalistic to prove without a doubt that if the elders want to DO those things it should be BY YOUR LEAVE and not give the impression that THEY are celestial beings and YOU have no right to question them. They THINK that if their peers selected them as a compliant fellow then the HOLY SPIRIT sets them OVER the work. However, Paul made it clear that it was the elder's OWN spirit which qualified them IF they were laboring in preaching and teaching (Word and Doctrine."

Preachers out of stolen colleges and universities are clearly being trained as PASTORS over the Missional Church which is a cult restoring the "five fold ministry" including Apostles and Prophets. I understand there are already some of those around Nashville.

The word PREACH is the word HERALD: you sent out a presbyter to send news to a field commander or some other good or bad news. The Athenian Laws forbade sending out POETS or RHETORICIANS because they always embellished (lied) and then tried to CHARGE for the always-prepaid news. Even Paul denied a WAGE but gave the normal "temple servants" daily dole of bread. As John Calvin asked: "Why should the plouging oxen starve and the lazy asses be fed." He denied that they had TEMPLE rights unless they were unique PRIESTS. Assuredly the singers were Levitical Warrior Musicians and they still fuel the WORSHIP WARS.

Paul commanded the word SPEAK which in the ekklesia was defined as "in a whisper or conversatonal tone." Another word defining speaking the WORD specificially excludes MUSIC. There simply is no MUSIC concept in the spiritual worship of believers. It was outlawed for the Qahal or church in the wilderness which ASSEMBLED only for instruction. The common people synagogued to READ or REHEARSE while the NATIONAL authorities did animal sacrifices PRIMARILY to feed themselves as God knew. That MUSIC was like all pagan temple's worship and NOT in the vilest pagan temple could singers or musicians enter into the holy precincts where the gods were represented. That is why a singer or musician (warriors) could not enter into the TYPE of the body or church of Christ even to clean out garbage in Hezekiah's reform which was a "plague stopping sacrifice" and not worship.

The LAW of giving was a command to SET IN ORDER the offering Corinth had pledged perhaps a year ago. It was ONLY for the prosperous (others if they wished) to give to the DESTITUTE in Judea. In 2. Corinthians Paul DENIES that it is a commanment. He does not want collections made when or after He comes because that would be seen as EXTORTION. The command was to lay by HIMSELF and that is almost universally seen as "in his own storage place" which would often be BOUND on their arms. So, the collection would have been a ONE TIME offering already put together when Paul arrived. Paul might be there through the winter and he didn't want any collections WHEN HE COMES.

Real living history interpreted that NOT as proportional giving but the PROSPEROUS gave to the DESTITUTE "but only if they were willing." We have a record of where that collectiton was made monthly to supply the AGAPE which was to feed workers on their way out seeking day labor. Others limited charity to a one-time gift because the church was a SCHOOL and not a Methodist Social Gospel Institution. I have collected many historical documents which deny that this was a weekly ACT of worship.

The Qahal, synagogue or "church in the wilderness" was held on many first days and all Sabbath days. Sabbath means REST and Isaiah outlawed "speaking your own words." The Holy Convocation meant to Read or Rehearse the Word. This would often be in the memory of the elders who were trained in the Oral tradition which Paul prescribes in the 'singing' passabes. In the early church of Christ (not called Catholic) to be a Bishop you had to have ALL of the Psaltery in your MIND. That made you APT to teach.

The faithful Israelites SYNAGOGUED where "Moses was preached being READ every Sabbath." The NATIONAL system was added as a curse as God turned them over to worship the STARRY HOST (Acts 7 and many other passages.) No one forgot that until the year 1815 in a liberal Jewish synagogue.

Jesus endorsed the Synagogue (when done properly) by standing up to read and having the uncommon decency to sit down and dialog (preach).

Paul outlawed the diversities of private life in Romans 14 and went directly into the "synagogue" which outlawed PERSONAL PLEASURING which means to create mental excitement: that which Jesus died to give us rest from the burden laders: "spiritual anxiety created by religious rituals." The Greek PAUO is highly dedicated to meaning 'stop the singing, stop the music, stop it all." Rest means rest as in rest as in SABBATH.

He directly commanded that we use ONE MIND and ONE MOUTH using "that which is written" or "scripture." That would edify meaning educate, glorify God who wrote it, comfort one another with Scripture and keep the UNITY. He then declared that they were competent to "teach one another." That is that "hidden" passage which says the same thing as the "singing" passages. However, the singing and melody is IN THE HEART or SPIRIT as the only place God accepts our worship.

We have no early history of "singing" and Justin really speaks of the PSALMS which were "sung as the schoolboy chants the halle.."

We know for a fact that singing as an ACT was added about 373 from Syria in order to sing Ephraem''s hymns. We violate the letter and intent by "sanging" Twila Paris who often teaches false dogma and "turns males into women." We violate both by NOT using the BIBLICAL material which had been restored by Calvin and DEstored by A. Campbell because he had a song book for sale. Scholars know that "churchy songs" were derived with a large component of VOODOO proving that the SLAVES always make the PhDuhs think that SLAVERY is okey dokey.

To that SCHOOL OF THE BIBLE, the early churches observed the Lord's Supper. Furthermore, those moving thorugh claiming to be apostles were given two or three days of support to tell THEM what HE knew that they didn't already know. They then found him a job or a ticket on the next working ass heading West. Phoebe's title shows that she may have been involved in settling or TRANSIENTING aliens.

School of the Bible + Lord's Supper: That 's it. Justin noted that those who prospered gave something to the destitute but there was never any toleration for an able bodied male to be supported by poor widows. I believe that Paul issued some direct commands and approved examples. We have an interesting bit of LAW which says that if someone came into their midst as a poet or singer they "honeyed and cottoned" them and sent them away: because no such a person is tolerated in our community. The Apostolic Constitutions written by "the church of Christ" about the year 200 lumped singers and instrumentalists with prostitutes and sodomites and they could not even BE MEMBERS without lots of repenting. Why is the ETERNAL PERSONA of sexual perversion the persona wise PhDuhs want to present to the world. There can only be ONE motive: money.

The issue is HOW FAR CAN YOU DIVERT and still be a SCHOOL OF THE BIBLE. That means that the INSTITUTE has been fabricated and the OWNERS have the same property rights as a TIME SHARE owner. One owner, as at Madison, has no right to INFILTRATE and DIVERT the property to another use. If not called "churches" the authorities would put them away making little rocks. The Missional Church is just another "cult" because the old ENTERTAINMENT MODEL has failed. The same ones who BROKE the churches for money will FIX the church if you pay them MORE money: fools love to be fools.

Now, the hint seems to be that you guys have USED too much music and maybe too much musician and IF that is true you need to pull back from the brink of becoming a "pagan worship center" because ALL music terms and names of instruments in the Bible speak of 'Satan or Lucifer, innocent (female) children, warriors, prostitutes and sodomites." The temple singers served the PRIESTS meaning hard bondage and DID NOT EVER NEVER lead congregational singing with instrumental accompaniment.

I Just read Mike Cope's latest which makes the suspicion clear that LU has experienced a Hostile Takeover and the "musicators" are too Biblically and historically illiterate to TRUST your children to. If the POPULAR writers publish it I can prove from TRUE HISTORY that they cannot PUBLISH and not PERISH without lying about history to appease the sponsor of their new PhDuh still dripping blood.

We are crawling off to the right: hope this moves us back to the left.

Ken,
If I understand you correctly you are saying that:
Preachers should not be paid
Singing is not an act of worship
Preaching is not an act of worship
Giving is not an act of worship

So since you have obviously narrowed the field, please explain to me when Christians "meet together on the first day of the week" what are the Biblical Acts of Worship?

Craig

What I am saying is that when people USURP the authority of the BODY of believers and deny them the right to have a "place at the table" they are being LEGALISTIC. Therefore, I have to go legalistic to prove without a doubt that if the elders want to DO those things it should be BY YOUR LEAVE and not give the impression that THEY are celestial beings and YOU have no right to question them. They THINK that if their peers selected them as a compliant fellow then the HOLY SPIRIT sets them OVER the work. However, Paul made it clear that it was the elder's OWN spirit which qualified them IF they were laboring in preaching and teaching (Word and Doctrine."

Preachers out of stolen colleges and universities are clearly being trained as PASTORS over the Missional Church which is a cult restoring the "five fold ministry" including Apostles and Prophets. I understand there are already some of those around Nashville.

The word PREACH is the word HERALD: you sent out a presbyter to send news to a field commander or some other good or bad news. The Athenian Laws forbade sending out POETS or RHETORICIANS because they always embellished (lied) and then tried to CHARGE for the always-prepaid news. Even Paul denied a WAGE but gave the normal "temple servants" daily dole of bread. As John Calvin asked: "Why should the plouging oxen starve and the lazy asses be fed." He denied that they had TEMPLE rights unless they were unique PRIESTS. Assuredly the singers were Levitical Warrior Musicians and they still fuel the WORSHIP WARS.

Paul commanded the word SPEAK which in the ekklesia was defined as "in a whisper or conversatonal tone." Another word defining speaking the WORD specificially excludes MUSIC. There simply is no MUSIC concept in the spiritual worship of believers. It was outlawed for the Qahal or church in the wilderness which ASSEMBLED only for instruction. The common people synagogued to READ or REHEARSE while the NATIONAL authorities did animal sacrifices PRIMARILY to feed themselves as God knew. That MUSIC was like all pagan temple's worship and NOT in the vilest pagan temple could singers or musicians enter into the holy precincts where the gods were represented. That is why a singer or musician (warriors) could not enter into the TYPE of the body or church of Christ even to clean out garbage in Hezekiah's reform which was a "plague stopping sacrifice" and not worship.

The LAW of giving was a command to SET IN ORDER the offering Corinth had pledged perhaps a year ago. It was ONLY for the prosperous (others if they wished) to give to the DESTITUTE in Judea. In 2. Corinthians Paul DENIES that it is a commanment. He does not want collections made when or after He comes because that would be seen as EXTORTION. The command was to lay by HIMSELF and that is almost universally seen as "in his own storage place" which would often be BOUND on their arms. So, the collection would have been a ONE TIME offering already put together when Paul arrived. Paul might be there through the winter and he didn't want any collections WHEN HE COMES.

Real living history interpreted that NOT as proportional giving but the PROSPEROUS gave to the DESTITUTE "but only if they were willing." We have a record of where that collectiton was made monthly to supply the AGAPE which was to feed workers on their way out seeking day labor. Others limited charity to a one-time gift because the church was a SCHOOL and not a Methodist Social Gospel Institution. I have collected many historical documents which deny that this was a weekly ACT of worship.

The Qahal, synagogue or "church in the wilderness" was held on many first days and all Sabbath days. Sabbath means REST and Isaiah outlawed "speaking your own words." The Holy Convocation meant to Read or Rehearse the Word. This would often be in the memory of the elders who were trained in the Oral tradition which Paul prescribes in the 'singing' passabes. In the early church of Christ (not called Catholic) to be a Bishop you had to have ALL of the Psaltery in your MIND. That made you APT to teach.

The faithful Israelites SYNAGOGUED where "Moses was preached being READ every Sabbath." The NATIONAL system was added as a curse as God turned them over to worship the STARRY HOST (Acts 7 and many other passages.) No one forgot that until the year 1815 in a liberal Jewish synagogue.

Jesus endorsed the Synagogue (when done properly) by standing up to read and having the uncommon decency to sit down and dialog (preach).

Paul outlawed the diversities of private life in Romans 14 and went directly into the "synagogue" which outlawed PERSONAL PLEASURING which means to create mental excitement: that which Jesus died to give us rest from the burden laders: "spiritual anxiety created by religious rituals." The Greek PAUO is highly dedicated to meaning 'stop the singing, stop the music, stop it all." Rest means rest as in rest as in SABBATH.

He directly commanded that we use ONE MIND and ONE MOUTH using "that which is written" or "scripture." That would edify meaning educate, glorify God who wrote it, comfort one another with Scripture and keep the UNITY. He then declared that they were competent to "teach one another." That is that "hidden" passage which says the same thing as the "singing" passages. However, the singing and melody is IN THE HEART or SPIRIT as the only place God accepts our worship.

We have no early history of "singing" and Justin really speaks of the PSALMS which were "sung as the schoolboy chants the halle.."

We know for a fact that singing as an ACT was added about 373 from Syria in order to sing Ephraem''s hymns. We violate the letter and intent by "sanging" Twila Paris who often teaches false dogma and "turns males into women." We violate both by NOT using the BIBLICAL material which had been restored by Calvin and DEstored by A. Campbell because he had a song book for sale. Scholars know that "churchy songs" were derived with a large component of VOODOO proving that the SLAVES always make the PhDuhs think that SLAVERY is okey dokey.

To that SCHOOL OF THE BIBLE, the early churches observed the Lord's Supper. Furthermore, those moving thorugh claiming to be apostles were given two or three days of support to tell THEM what HE knew that they didn't already know. They then found him a job or a ticket on the next working ass heading West. Phoebe's title shows that she may have been involved in settling or TRANSIENTING aliens.

School of the Bible + Lord's Supper: That 's it. Justin noted that those who prospered gave something to the destitute but there was never any toleration for an able bodied male to be supported by poor widows. I believe that Paul issued some direct commands and approved examples. We have an interesting bit of LAW which says that if someone came into their midst as a poet or singer they "honeyed and cottoned" them and sent them away: because no such a person is tolerated in our community. The Apostolic Constitutions written by "the church of Christ" about the year 200 lumped singers and instrumentalists with prostitutes and sodomites and they could not even BE MEMBERS without lots of repenting. Why is the ETERNAL PERSONA of sexual perversion the persona wise PhDuhs want to present to the world. There can only be ONE motive: money.

The issue is HOW FAR CAN YOU DIVERT and still be a SCHOOL OF THE BIBLE. That means that the INSTITUTE has been fabricated and the OWNERS have the same property rights as a TIME SHARE owner. One owner, as at Madison, has no right to INFILTRATE and DIVERT the property to another use. If not called "churches" the authorities would put them away making little rocks. The Missional Church is just another "cult" because the old ENTERTAINMENT MODEL has failed. The same ones who BROKE the churches for money will FIX the church if you pay them MORE money: fools love to be fools.

Now, the hint seems to be that you guys have USED too much music and maybe too much musician and IF that is true you need to pull back from the brink of becoming a "pagan worship center" because ALL music terms and names of instruments in the Bible speak of 'Satan or Lucifer, innocent (female) children, warriors, prostitutes and sodomites." The temple singers served the PRIESTS meaning hard bondage and DID NOT EVER NEVER lead congregational singing with instrumental accompaniment.

I Just read Mike Cope's latest which makes the suspicion clear that LU has experienced a Hostile Takeover and the "musicators" are too Biblically and historically illiterate to TRUST your children to. If the POPULAR writers publish it I can prove from TRUE HISTORY that they cannot PUBLISH and not PERISH without lying about history to appease the sponsor of their new PhDuh still dripping blood.

I WOULD CHALLENGE YOUR BEST GREEK SCHOLARS TO PROVE TO THIS FORUM THAT PSALLO AUTHORIZES EITHER ORGANIC INSTRUMENTS (A CAPELLA- A LA CASTRATOS) OR INSTRUMENTS SO ABSOLUTELY THAT IT IS WORTH MERGING WITH THE CHRISTIAN CHURCHES IN ORDER TO EXCAPE THE STIGMA OF "CHRIST" AND STEAL ANOTHER UNIVERSITY.

Ken,

Ok, so describe to me what a worship service, in your opinion, should consist? I am interested to know what is the correct form of worship.

Craig

First, I am not delusional and do not expect that there will be any "restored" churches soon. However, that does not mean that the Approved Practices of the "doctors of the Law" taking away the KEY to knowledge by deliberately SUBVERTING the views held by the founders and supporters. If they want to get IN BED with the Christian church they need the minimal honesty to get paid by THEIR members. I can tell you that NO Christian church is so stupid that they would AFFIRM our beliefs and FELLOWSHIP meaning to let ME or others teach what any literate Bible student knows. That means to me that those seeking to MERGE are PLANTS and cannot be that Biblically or historical illiterate. Can you believe a Guru speaking of the "worship" in Isaiah: "there's nothing wrong with their worship"? Can you hallucinate a Guru promoting the Lord's Supper as a "sacrificial meal with JUBILATION where God EATS while we burn the FAT"? Can you think of a teacher who DENIES that John was inspired because John doesn't have "Jesus going to Jerusalem"? Can you believe teaching that all of the olden Bible has been "sifted away" but "we gonna partner with God to work out a new set for OUR changed culture"? I think God is just RUBBING the noses of the "doctors of the Law" to make the literates see them as the prophesied BUFFOONS which God sends as His WRATH.

Second, I believe the synagogue or church in the wilderness was to quarantine people from WORSHIP which was always pagan. This defined speaking or rehearsing the Word and excluded anything Loud such as instruments or loud rejoicing (the word ALARM)

Consistent with that, the speaking in the EKKLESIA or synagogue or church is "speaking as the oracles of God." That defines both resources and manner of speaking: the Oracle spoke in a slow manner. It was the priests and musicians who changed the oracles in the pagan temples and sang them in verse.

Paul's unique "worship" word meant to give heed to the Word or Spirit or "that which is written" or "scripture." That excluded the "worship" forms of the diversities in Rome namely the Orphics and Dionysiacs who PLEASURED one another with singing and music.

When Paul assembled out on the mission field the words are types of "synagogue" and his task was to teach and disciple. The synagogue by direct command and universal practice until 1815 "had no praise service." Praise singing is one of the oldest superstitions that you have to ASSIST, appease or even threaten the gods to PAY you with many lambs.

The historical churches assembled for extended periods for prayer, learning and chanting the Psalms, the Lord's Supper and fellowship. There was no collection plate passed but those DESTITUTE were assisted by those who PROSPERED (but only if they wished). There would have been no song leader: McClintock and Stong identifies the Precentor as "the first heresly largely pervading the church." There would have been no secular songs because that violated the Qahal or Synagogue commands in the wilderness, the approved example of Jesus, the direct command of Paul and the almost universal practice: A Campbell DEstored the Psalms. There would have been no singing in the true sense intended to arouse mental excitement prior to the year 373. There would have been no preaching: when leaders went from expository teaching to even telling Bible stories there was discord. For the most part the assembly--especially the communion and Hymning the Psalms--was not a private performance but done in a private (perhaps upper) room. You simply do not PERFORM praying or "leading" in prayers.

Now, even if I had my youth back I would be at a loss about how to DO church without letting it get LOOSE and an ATTRACTANT (as Paul warned) for those seing godliness as OCCUPATION. Here is what T. Campbell wrote in part:

http://www.piney.com/RMTCWorship.html

Now, we have trouble in River City when people deliberately collect money from widows which is the HERITAGE of her family. The postmodern view (confessed) and the Promise Keepers and Purpose Driven Cult and the Confilict Resolution people have no problem DIVERTING the monies to a BETTER USE than the one used to collect it. I have seen it done in my little town and the CHANGERS clearly recommend the process.

Behind the scene the teachers have been collected from Reformed and Musical backgrounds having imbibed the false teachings which not a single one could defend. That is not to say that the "oldies" were always the "goodies" but they would NEVER lie, cheat and steal the universities or homes of widows.

No one who reads anything from the PhDuhs or sees how they attend and defend churches paganizing with "music" as theatrical (hypocritical) performance can deny that too many are DISLOYAL and need to be removed.

Ken,

So if I am understanding you correctly, singing is not an act of worship that was commanded by the Apostles? A collection of money on the first day of the week was also not a commandment of the Apostles for worship? Intersting. You must be using a different version of the Bible than I do and I use most for my study.

Singing:

Ephesians 5:18-20 (King James Version)


18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;

19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;

20 Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ;


Is that not a commandment?

Giving:

1 Corinthians 16
1 Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.

2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.

3 And when I come, whomsoever ye shall approve by your letters, them will I send to bring your liberality unto Jerusalem.

It seems here that Paul is telling the Corinthians to "lay by him in store as God hath prospered him.." means to give of our means on the first day of the week, Sunday right? Is this not also a commandment?

Preaching:

Acts 20:8-9

8 And there were many lights in the upper chamber, where they were gathered together.

9 And there sat in a window a certain young man named Eutychus, being fallen into a deep sleep: and as Paul was long preaching, he sunk down with sleep, and fell down from the third loft, and was taken up dead.

They were gathered together in one place - this sounds like they were in a worship style gathering and Paul was "preaching".

I Cor 11:17

17 Now in this that I declare unto you I praise you not, that ye come together not for the better, but for the worse.

18 For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it.

19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.

Verse 18 is interesting here, "when ye come together in the church", it seems that Paul was saying when believers meet together, "church" i.e. worship that there should be no divisions. Were they, the Corinthians, not meeting in an assembled area? - be it a house, a cave, a catacomb or a building built for the express purpose of gathering together on the first day of the week.

I Cor 14:23

23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?

There's that "whole church be come together into one place".

So Ken, I am at a loss to understand your determination to spread the ideas and beliefs on this web site that Christians do not gather together as a group, sing praises to God, edify each other with the words of God and give as God has prospered them, all of which Paul says the early church did and most importantly be in subjection to the elders over THAT church?

Craig

There is no record of SINGING in the early history of the church. Justin speaks of the PSALMS which obeys the DIRECT COMMAND of Paul but it is not clear that Justin spoke of any kind of "singing"

Secondly, we have the historical evidence that Ephraem and others added SINGING as an ACT of the assembly about the year 373.

In my life time SINGING has gone from a quiet form which -- though not Scriptural -- did not create mental anxiety and drive people away and divide congregations. That has lead to "worship teams" and the open teaching of many "phds" that the Bible is not against instrumental music. My guess is that most of those at Lipscomb would subscribe to that. One of the first things on the new president's agenda was to determine if LU would continue affiliated with churches of Christ. How in the name of minimal ethics can you make such a decision about the legacy of dead people?

That means that we have to PEEL the layers off and RESTORE the church in a radical way to fight the radical and pagan "stealing of church houses of widows." If they want to be LEGAL then we need to deprive them of funding.

Singing:
Ephesians 5:18-20 (King James Version)

18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;

19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;
20 Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ;

First, you will notice that Paul issues TWO commands:

External: SPEAK one to another
Internal: Singing AND Making melody IN THE HEART.

This is important because you cannot SPEAK (PREACH) and SING at the same time: it is simply a definition of words.

There are several words used of SPEAKING in the synagogue or the ekklesia which was not a worship center but A SCHOOL OF THE BIBLE.

SPEAK in the ekklesia is defined in the literature meanint to "whisper or use conversational tone." Another word

A SONG is not musical

Ode (g5603) o-day'; from 103; a chant or "ode" the gen. term for any words sung; while 5215 denotes espec. a religious metrical composition, and 5568 still more spec. a Heb. cantillation): - song.

That gives some logic to Paul who began by commanding SPEAKING which is PREACHING one to another using the BIBLICAL TEXT.

I won't post the evidence but Paul was using a common expression about PLUCKING THE HEARTS STRING and NOT the harp strings. That is also true because PSALLO is not a musical word but a warfare word. Psallo simply means to pluck something and suddenly let go to produce a "sound" which does not mean music. Psall specificially commands ONLY WITH THE FINGERS and NEVER WITH A PLECTRUM. Therefore, the word itself EXCLUDES the musical concept. Psallo as "proof texted" comes from literature speaking of males plucking the harp string to seduce young boys.

NEXT: THE DEFINITION OF WORDS EXCLUDES MUSIC. Also true because "Melody as tunefulness belongs to the 19th century." In the Latin:

Eph 5: [19]WEB loquentes vobismet ipsis in psalmis et hymnis et canticis spiritalibus cantantes et psallentes in cordibus vestris Domino

Loquor

1. [Sanscr. lap-, to talk, whisper;, to speak, talk, say (in the lang. of common life, in the tone of conversation;

A. To speak, declare, show, indicate or express clearly

That is LOGICALLY what you do when you meet to TEACH THE INSPIRED TEXT.

A Greek word for SPEAKING:

Logik-os, ( [logos] )

A. of or for speaking or speech, merê l. the organs of speech, Plu.Cor.38: logikê, hê, speech, opposite to MOUSIKE,

Jesus said that HE put HIS Logos power in RHEMA which is the ONLY THING humans have access to.

After putting private diversities OUTSIDE of the arena of the assembly, Paul picked up in Romans 15 outlawing the personal pleasuring which connects directly to any kind of creation of MENTAL EXCITEMENT.

Paul commanded that we use ONE MIND and ONE MOUTH to speak "That which is written" meaning "scriptre." The purpose was edification which means EDUCATION, glorifying God, Comforting one another WITH SCRIPTURE and preventing the discord ALWAYS the result of "musical styles."

No one misunderstood that for hundreds of years.

Ken,

To denouce singing as a part of worship is to say the least a "radical way" to peel off the layers of pagan worship at the very most it is ludicrous.

Your arguement against singing in worship is flawed. You say that there is no record of singing in the first century church, you are correct, but there are no records of an actual worship service in the NT. But there are examples of teaching by Paul on the subject and you know it.

Col. 3:15-17

15 And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful.

16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.

17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

That's a pretty good example dont you think?

Let me state, for the record, that I do not believe in "praise teams", instrumental music in worship or anything that is NOT spoken of in the NT, but to say that we have to remove any form of singing in our worship is the most idiotic thing I have heard you say.

You are trying to "throw the baby out with the bath water". You can't be serious in thinking that you are going to convience people that the idea of "praise teams" and instruments in worship can only be stopped by not "singing" at all in worship. That's just silly.

Even Jesus with his disciples, before he went to the Garden;

Matthew 26:30

26 While they were eating, Jesus took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to his disciples, saying, "Take and eat; this is my body."

27 Then he took the cup, gave thanks and offered it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you.

28 This is my blood of the[b] covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

29 I tell you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it anew with you in my Father's kingdom."

30 When they had sung a hymn, they went out to the Mount of Olives.

Ken, this is right after Jesus himself constituted the Lord Supper as an act of rememberance of his death. He along with his disciples, "sang a hymn". They didnt speak to each other in a hymn, they sang it, using their voices.

I think you have gone more than radical on this subject, you have lost sight of one of the acts of worship that we have an example of in the NT. Now I dont mind reading through your exaustive diatribes on the Latin, Greek and Hebrew wording of your "olden Bible", but please try to keep it on a realistic plane.

If you keep on with this idea you are going to do more harm than good to the Lord's Church. You cannot hope to turn people's hearts away from "pagan" worship by being so radical. People will begin to dismiss EVERYTHING you say and not give it any credence.

Do you just say these things to get a rise or reaction out of people, because if that is your goal, you are going to have a long row to hoe to move some congregations away from what I believe is "adding" to the word of God. i.e. praise teams and instruments in worship.

Ken, I believe it would be in the best interst of the Lord's Church for you and others like you to admonish people in love instead of trying to sow discord by "brow beating" believing Christians that singing in worship is a "pagan" ritual. Remember there are new Christians who will visit this site that do not need to sit down to a full meal just yet, they need milk first to build up their Christian strength.

Craig

Without knowing why, many people are driven away by the "worship rituals" which create mental anxiety or they would not be practiced. After some time a large part of the population--already burden laden by society--discovers that, as Paul told the Corinthians, "your assemblies do more harm than good." I am aware that "churchianity" is driving people away when they catch on that JESUS PAID IT ALL and to a priestly class (singers) NOTHING do I owe. I won't accept the responsibility for telling people the truth which is well documented.

I don't try to tell people what to do but I do try to teach the gospel: an important part of the gospel is "come to me all ye that labor and are heavy laden and I will give you rest." That is so, He says, that we can "come learn of me." Now, the laded burden is what we do in our charismatic, complex harmony which produces the "spiritual anxiety through religious rituals" Jesud died to GIVE us. Believe it or not, the word rest is PAUO which is specificially used to mean "stop the singing." Complex harmony HURTS before it gives a DRUG HIGH.

At Passover only certain Psalms were RECITED or READ. These were the hallel songs. They were sung only on certain days and it was unlawful to sing them just for fun. A SONG is metrical so that it CAN be sung but SONG does not define a melody. Several sources I have consulted like the Britannica say that "Melody as tunefulness belongs to the 19th century." And because MELODY and HARMONY are not related, I can be dead certain that they did not SING in the modern charismatic form calculated to shut down the mind.

You will notice that the Passover must be KILLED once a year. This is separated from the feast of unleaven bread which ran for a week:

Then came the day of unleavened bread, when the passover must be killed. Luke 22:7

Maybe this is time for Holywood, Dollywood and Grand Ole Opry to some but I don't think we should be singy-happy when we meed with Jesus.

Next, you need a PRIVATE HOUSE: This was never a CHURCH but a private or family practice. You cannot stretch the authority to violate all of the principles just because no one knows that sing does not mean SANG.

Matt 26:18 And he said, Go into the city to such a man, and say unto him, The Master saith, My time is at hand; I will keep the passover at thy house with my disciples.

At this time they apparently sang or RECITED just one appropriate BIBLICAL PSALM:

And when they had SUNG an HYMN, they went out into the mount of Olives. Matt 26:30

Both SUNG and HYMN means an ode or BIBLICAL Psalm. If we are going to toss away the songs by THE SPIRIT OF CHRIST why not throw away the Bible which IS, in fact, the meaning of preaching which is not expository without the stand up buffoonery.

They hymned a hymned. They did not SANG a SONG using abrassive complex harmony teaching effeminate or false dogma. A hymn is a solemn, recited metrical story:

Humn-eô thrênois . also in Prose, celebrate in a hymn, commemorate, 2. descant upon, in song or speech, II. tell over and over again, harp upon, repeat, recite, ton nomon humnein recite the form of the law,


Thrênos 1 [threomai meaning TO BE SEATED]

1. a funeral-song, dirge, lament, thrênos houmos for me, Aesch.

The pagan THRENOS was what they tried to induce into Jesus prematurely when they PLAYED the Pipe.

Paul in hebrews show how Jesus Christ "sings" with us in the assembly:

Saying, I will DECLARE thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I SING praise unto thee. Heb.2:12

None of the words used of SPEAKING the revealed Word of God are remotely related to MUSIC. When Jesus sings with us He is SAD beyond our comprehension: still suffering for your sins.

Apalgeo (g524) ap-alg-eh'-o; from 575 and algeo, (to smart); to grieve out, i.e. become apathetic: - be past feeling

You know we UNpagans just don't do the singy-clappy when we are SHOWING FORTH the Death of Christ and HE is still grieving for our sins with a sadness which must echo out into space for ever.

Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding SORROWFUL, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me. Matthew 26:38

And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless, not as I will, but as thou wilt. Matthew 26: 39

And he cometh unto the disciples, and findeth them asleep, and saith unto Peter, What, could ye not WATCH FOR ME ONE HOUR? Matthew 26: 40

Every first day of the week God in Christ GRIEVES with sweat and blood for YOUR sins even as He knew that Peter would betray Him. The cross paid it all but the GRIEVING for humanity which CANNOT watch for one hour.

I will post some data on the Hallel which EXCLUDES singing as a ritual shortly.

Paul commanded that we SPEAK in an external sense: both singing AND melody were internal. That is what Jesus did at the Passover. They HYMNED a HYMN or they RECITED a PRAYER. Cantillation used the "normal inflection of the human voice." That is a fact and it cannot be denied. The problem with singing is that it also violated the direct command to use THAT WHICH IS WRITTEN. TRUTH is not going to cause any young people to be lost, for heaven's sake.

The Passover in which Jesus instituted the Lord's Supper spoke of the Jew's expectation that John the Baptist would announce Messiah, the fruit of the vine would be UNFERMENTED and they would have sung Psalm 137 which speaks of HANGING UP OUR HARPS--another subject.

"In time, the term Hallel came to mean the "Great Hallel," Psalm 136, which is used in the morning service on the Sabbath, festivals, and during the Passover seder. The "half-Hallel" (parts of Psalms 115 and 116 are omitted) is used on the last six days of PASSOVER and on the NEW MOON.

"Hallel, in Jewish ritual, selection from the Psalms, chanted as part of the liturgy during certain festivals. The more frequently used selection includes Psalms 113-118 and is known as the Egyptian Hallel, presumably because Psalm 114 begins, "When Israel went out of Egypt"

"It is sung in synagogues on the first two days of Passover, on Shabuoth, on Sukkot, on each morning of the eight days of Hanukkah, and at the close of the Seder.

"The Hallel through the generations, on specific occasions: Pesachim 117a

"Hallel requires a full stomach and a satisfied spirit: Taanis 25b-26a

The READING is beloved to the people, and so they LISTEN closely: Megillah 21b

"The Hallel as an Institution of the Prophets, to use to PRAY for salvation from danger: Pesachim 117a [2x] Saying the Hallel daily is blasphemous: Shabbos 118b

Hallel

The Hallel through the generations, on specific occasions: Pesachim 117a
Hallel requires a full stomach and a satisfied spirit: Taanis 25b-26a
The reading is beloved to the people, and so they listen closely: Megillah 21b
The Hallel as an Institution of the Prophets, to use to pray for salvation from danger: Pesachim 117a
[2x]
Which occurrences mandate singing praise to Gd: Megillah 14a
Reciting Hallel for a miracle which occurred outside of Israel: Megillah 14a
Saying the Hallel daily is blasphemous: Shabbos 118b


Role of the Reader in the "Hallel" prayer of praise
Having a minor lead: Megillah 24a
Having a person wearing torn, ragged clothing lead: Megillah 24a
Having a person from Haifa or Bet She'an lead: Megillah 24b
Requiring a Quorum in order to have a reader: Megillah 23b
Ability of the Reader to read the prayers for others who aren't expert: Rosh HaShanah 33b,34b-35a

All forms of AROUSAL singing with or without instruments was called SORCERY or ENCHANTMENT. John assigns it to the Babylon Harlow worship in Revelation 18.

The concept of the Elder OVERSEEING was used in they synagogue: as part of the EDUCATION for which the synagogue and church existed, a schoolboy could READ these hymns and the elder watched carefully that he did not ADD TO or SUBTRACT from the text.

That is Paul's meaning when he sais that the ELDERS "teach that which HAS been taught." There is NO music concept in the ekklesia, synagogue or church. It was added almost 400 years after the time of Christ.

Do I expect anyone to change: not on your life: the "idolatry of talent" has confiscated the church and, as prophesied, only a TINY REMNANT will be "outside" the crowds to suffer reproaches with Jesus Christ. "Shall He find faith when He returns?" The answer is "Almost none." So for the flesh collectors: eat drink and make mary.

Ken,

I'm sorry but I can not continue to read your obsurd ideas about worship (btw you never answered my question about what YOU think worship should consist of) so I am going to have to decline in any more responses to this post that began with Granny White Church of Christ headed down a liberal trail.

I am so so conservative I make you look like New Dealer and the idea that we should not sing as part of our worship to God is, dare I say it again, obsurd.

I wish you the best of luck in all that you do.

I can see from all of your posts why the peasants (human material) would feel threatened by the "inner circle" of leaders.

I am reviewing Dick Soule's version of music in church, by request, on Faithsite under LoveB and on a detailed review on the internet. In that I have shown that people are truly deluded when they can look at the word SPEAK and visibly see the word MAKE MUSIC. Paul said that when people cannot read BLACK TEXT on white paper it is because they have not CONVERTED to the Lord.

It isn't a question of "what can I get by with" because a DISCIPLE and a faithful elder must "teach that which has been taught." Modern forms of complex harmony is about as LIBERAL as you can get because the METHOD and RESOURCE proves that you have "moved beyond the sacred pages."

If you don't care to read it then I will continue my quest to try to supply Biblical pastoring where it is clearly lacking--free of charge of course since JESUS PAID IT ALL.

http://www.piney.com/Dick.Soule.Music.html

Ken