Good Morning ,
I am member of the ............ Church of Christ in Michigan.
In the last several months we have been losing members in our Church at the same time attracting more young people.
My pastor has been focusing on Rick Warrens ministries from simulcast, books, flyers, yard signs, 40 days of purpose small groups etc.etc.
I am my pastors prayer partner and pray for him each Sunday before he takes the pulpit, we spend lots of time sharing over coffee at a local coffee shop. Unknown to my pastor I have increasingly been becoming uncomfortable with changes from large overhead screen,
full blown musical band, the lack of scripture or encouragement to bring our bibles since scriptures are now put on overhead from at least 6 different translations of Bible. The reason I hesitated to share my feelings is that he is so focused on this . I feel we are serving the world by compromising the foundation of the Church .
After a Sunday morning message that mimicked Rick Warren and the importance of joining a small group, I had , had enough.
I left that day very discouraged , greeted my pastor as I walked out and thought I would never live to see the day that I would hear a Sunday morning message with not one scripture verse used .
I felt manipulated into joining Rick Warrens 40 days of Community.
Whew, please bear with me here as I am dealing with a very unsettled spirit about what is happening with our church . I have been a member there for 20 years and was one of the youth pastors their for 15 years.
Last Friday I approached our Elders and Pastor and shared my concerns from feelings like our Worship has become entertainment, no scripture,
the rise of new members to leadership positions, the concern about scripture use from watered down bibles, women opening up our service with prayer, the changing from deacons to ministry leaders titles , and that I have felt the lack of reverence to God due to entertainment mentality.etc.
and the concern about members who were once committed and actively involved in our church who have left and recently have heard of at least 12 more families ...Most of these folks are leaving quietly as to not cause dissent , factions and split in the Church since we heard a message about this one Sunday morning too. Some of these folks were shocked to hear that we were one of the families since they know the closeness the Pastor and I have. Well after sharing our concerns to our Elders and my Pastor, he was first to reply by
stating to be careful and that he knows what it is like to be in a negative rut and fault find. I finished the meeting by asking the guys to show me a scripture where Jesus tells us that it is ok to change the way we do things in church service to reach out to the community while losing long term , committed Christians in the process....
We wrapped up with a prayer and now awaiting their response.
While my relationship with Jesus Christ is solid , I feel empty in the last few days over what has taken place.
Yesterday a Mother shared with me that while walking up the sidewalk last Sunday morning the music was so loud that her young five year old said , " Mama , it sounds wild in there "....I broke down in tears .
Please pray for me as I am praying for you and encouraged that I am not alone. A good friend of mine who is a Pastor in Idaho referred me to your website and I forwarded it to a couple of our Elders.
God help us ...Gal. 6:9

If your leadership is not responsive to your concerns it is usually better to move on in love and truth. A large group left the Park Hill Church of Christ when a similiar mess got going.

Church of Christ "Pastor?" Hmmmmm.... something doesn't smell right to me.

My name is Shane and I wanted to be a Christian. I studied with a girlfriend of mine and really wanted to know more about Christ and his teachings. Some how I made it to this website and I am having serious doubts about it. You people don't care about me and my faith, you care about music, pastors, and other stupid stuff. I am new to the bible, but I see Jesus being concerned with the sick and poor. How many times does he even go to church? I know that you will have some very harsh words about me and tell me I am just a stupid pagan or something, but I just don't get it. I am so glad I found this site. I will tell everyone I know to come and look what real Christians do: They bitch and moan about stupid stuff. I want to know Christ on a intimate and personal level. I want to follow his teaching on GOD. I want to help people like me be better people. Too bad I found out today what christians are really like: People who hate those that are not like them. Congratulations you have offically lost me!!! Not that you care, I like to play the guitar. Continue to bitch and moan, I would rather burn in hell than be like anyone of you!

-Depressed about Chirst-

Hi Shane,

I cannot give you advise about the website. It has many writers.

I can tell you that if you will direct your questions or comments to a writer on these boards that we will be more than glad to try and work through any and all of your concerns.

No one that writes on these board write for the purpose of upsetting Shane or anyone else.

Most of us have the same goals at heart, i.e., teaching the truth according to what the Bible teaches.

I am sure that you would agree that no writter on these boards should allow a false Bible view to go by unchallanged. You wrote, "I want to follow his (Christ) teaching on GOD. I want to help people like me be better people."

I think that is a wonderful goal to have and I would like to add that it is my goal also.

There are no hidden agendas with any of us, we have no ax to grind, we love everyone, but we do not consider anyone or any Church that espouses false teachings or practises to be walking in "Truth".

These are the ones that we are trying to warn others of.
Yes, our purpose is to warn others, let others know about both churches and preachers who are not walking in the light.

The Apostle Paul wrote, "Now we exhort you, brethren, warn them that are unruly, comfort the feebleminded, support the weak, be patient toward all men." 1 Thessalonians 5:14

Again Paul say, "we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:" Colossians 1:28

In Christians Love,

Jimmy

I just don't understand who died and made you the king of all bible knowledge? I read the same text as many of these people and the stuff you come up with is amazing. I get baptism. That is something that Jesus did and I want to follow in his ways, but I read other places that I can do nothing on my own to get to heaven. So how can baptism be a salvation issue by itself? Is it not a process? I read that issue different than a lot of people on this website, I now I feel I am a false Christian. Does any ever measure up to the standards you set? Musical Instruments? It never mentions them in the bible, but we can't have them? What is that? Are we playing God? I think that is so wrong! We have buildings and those are in the bible. What about song books, pews, student ministers, and microphones? All evil? Where do you draw the line? I just don't get it and probably never will!

-Daily getting father away from what YOU call Christianity-

Don't use this website as the barometer of your following Jesus. Just follow Him.

Read up in the left corner Shane. It will tell you who most people are.

In christian Love,

Jimmy

I read your message and it makes me very sad to see that you have found this web site. I want you to know that not all Christians are like this. And please don't use this horrible display of Church to make a decision on being a chiristian. The Church Of Christ is very strick in what they believe and alot of it is docterine and not from the bible. Why they do this I don't know. Please please find a church in your area and try attending it and give Christians a second chance. Alot of them have good intentions but don't realise how they affect people. Trust me I know my family claim to be so close with God but just hurt and manipulate instead. I haven't let that get to me though, I just don't talk to them. I have no relationship with my Mom, Dad, brother or Aunts and Uncles, not even my Grandparents. Its hard to be around people like that they just hold you down. SO keep your eyes on God and keep reading your Bible and please find a good church.

Please read the Bible and look at who Jesus really is and forget what people have done to his teachings. I have been nearly destroyed by Christians and churches, but I hold on to what God has said through the Bible. That is where the final truth is, and you can find it there for yourself with no man to lead you through it. God tells us through his word what we need. God helps us with his word, and I am startin to think we have the Bible because man has messed up what God intended, so we have "the original statement" from God. Read John 14. What God says is true, what people say is lies. What God promises he delivers, people will screw you over. But I do believe, that there are good Christians out there, and they are few and far between. It's not a matter of instrumental music or acapella, or what ever gets people's shorts twisted. It all comes down to what God says and what Jesus did on the cross. Spend time alone with your Bible and don't talk to people about it yet. Get a good handle on what God says. People are messes up and power hungry and money hungry and get off on tangents that never were supposed to be.

I know that annonymous will know who this is and that is ok. I know that my wife and I are at the end also. I love my church and don't want to loose it but I also don't want to be the guy that breaks us up also. I am not against music, I just don't think it is right in this situation. I would be great with it if it was a concert or another type or form but not in the context of worship.
I pray everyday that our elders will see the error and correct it. I know that God will send me in the proper direction. I just need to listen to him not to me.

Hello,
It is a sad situation and many tears have fallen..
I feel that my heart is broken since we have build so many relationships and friends. Pray much, and trust God. He is the only source.
We can find much comfort at the foot of the Cross of Jesus ...
I like christian music too , I have lots of different cd's that have christian lyrics wrote by christian musicians with instrumental music.
I too am not against musical instruments but feel that we have lost our way as it pertains to Sunday morning worship...( Sunday is not a time for a concert, or individual performance ),,,it is time to come to God in reverent worship.
I along with many others are coming to realize that it is much more than worship, it involves, womens roles, bible translations, lack of bible emphasis, removing much that resembles the forgiving blood of Jesus, sinners, repentance, etc. etc.etc. I have always felt funny when a leader reacts with anger, accusing me of division, calling me a back stabbing slanderer, tells me that it will be my fault when others leave the church,
calling me a sinner since I stood up to expose some lies, that it is I who am manipulating the scriptures and twisting and turning things, all the while having others find some solace , peace, and comfort that others are feeling like they are too...Since the support involves so many others including some leadership, I have to ask ....are we " all " wrong , all sinners, all backbiting haters, all manipulaters, all slanders.
Gosh, I never new I had the power to convince so many to see things my way all the while leading them to the pit ??....I think not !
I have come to realize that it is a threat when others begin to think for themselves lead by the spirit of God to ask questions and test all things.
I fully do stand by my convictions, I am a sinner , I am imperfect,
I wrestle with the flesh, I am tempted by pride, etc.etc.
I am tho, at peace with God to sit and discuss in a chirstlike manner with anyone in our church my great concerns with the direction we are headed.
I have sat with our leaders several times, in person , on e-mail and phone.
My experience is that most underhanded christians who are doing back stabbing activities and undermine thru hate , generally don't meet with those they have concerns with , yet I am open to any and all discussion without question...The real question is maybe some leadership want "total"
submission , meaning don't ask , just submit....hmmmmm...
I honor and pray for these men and will continue too not out of hate but it is my duty to lift these men up in prayer ...
Wow, we are not crazy, we are not a hostile mob of people trying to get rid of anyone, the group of many christian folks are not backbiting haters, who are looking for a gripe session support group , there is now hope for those who left or considered leaving completely and the funny thing about all this , all I have come in contact with are praying fervently , with no hatred or hostility ....hmmmmmmm. Who is openminded here ????
Maybe some leadership would learn much if they only humbled themselves and not allow the enemy to harden their hearts and dig in while feeling justified that they are much smarter than the rest of us ...
I feel I have stretched over the last few years but in recent days have felt that somehow I have been blinded and not fully awake...
Well, I am fully awake now !!!! Pray that God would heal us and unite us once again, and that He would recieve the Glory for it all ...
In the meantime , I will find another place of worship with the "hope" that God would remove the scales of those who have been blinded by the the decieveing spirits that have transformed themselves as angels of light.
Have I been perfect in my approach ? , absolutely not , I wrestle with content as well as delivery over issues and matters that are affecting our entire church...I am frustrated and leaders have sensed that at times.
But my approach has not been to swear, yell, as an out of control Christian and those who I have met with can attest to that ...
I will finish with what I started with , pray fervently for ourselves, our leaders, our church and pray that all would humble themselves and stop pushing the agenda that put us here in the first place over the years...
respectfully submitted....Gal. 6:9 till He comes ...( soon )

Stay as far away from this website as possible. 1 Peter 3:13-22

Keep your eyes on the prize. Philippians 3:12-14, Colossians 3:1-17

Focus on God and his word and quit squabbling about your preference. Philippians 2:3-4

By your own admission we are bringing in new babes in Christ. And that is a bad thing how? Because some feel uncomfortable now. Because you are forced out of your comfort zone? Because someone else told you it was wrong?

If there are long-standing Christians that feel uncomfortable worshiping there, will they not find another avenue to worship? Yes. Now we have new Christians worshiping and haven't lost the others. They have simply found another place to worship the SAME LORD! Now we have added more to The List. And that is bad how?

I don't want to hear any "if it's not in the New Testament, it's unscriptural" crap. God left out the black and whites of worship for a reason. We are here to worship Him. To lift up HIS name. To bring souls to Him. To love and accept all. We are ALL sinners and have fallen short.

You say you're fine with instrumental "worship" just so long as it's not at church? So any other time you do it, is it not worship? If it's worship, IT'S WORSHIP. If God is being honored one place, he's being honored EVERYWHERE!

Do you think we should smile in church? Isn't that irreverent? Are our voices not an instrument? Is God not being exalted by our gifts? Better get rid of all the microphones, I'm pretty sure those weren't around in the New Testament either.

Quit all the gripping and secret meetings in homes to discuss the evils of 40 Days and slandering men called by God. The four elders decided TOGETHER to introduce these changes. The four elders decided TOGETHER that we need to reach out to the community in new ways to win souls for Christ.

Shame on all of you! Especially all those that had issues with those who left for the Adrian Church meeting with people in their houses stirring up controversy in 1996. You are doing the exact same thing. You should repent of your thoughts. You are the same people.

Original poster:
\f0\b0 Did you not become a Christian because someone moved out of their comfort zone and approached a lost man in jail? He was willing to meet you where you were. Willing to approach you in your element. That is what the Gospel is all about. Meeting the lost where they are at loving them and exalting the name of Christ.

"Though I am free and belong to no man, I make myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible. To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God's law but am under Christ's law), so as to win those not having the law. To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might save some. I do this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings."
-1 Corinthians 9:19-23

"Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called "uncircumcised" by those who call themselves "the circumcision" (that done in the body by the hands of men)\'d1 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.

For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.

Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God's people and members of God's household, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit."
-Ephesians 2:11-22}

God never gave elders the authority to move the LAMBS out of their comfort zones. God through Paul told them to "teach that which has been taught" and to refute those who teach error. People who deliberately MOVE PEOPLE OUT OF THEIR COMFORT ZONES intend to teach ERROR. They learned it from Machiavelli (and quote him), Hitler and Hegel. They INSIST that you have to induce SCHIZOPHRENIA to make people uncomfortable with the OLD BIBLE because whe have VISIONS and NEW GLASSES and are WORKING OUT NEW SCRIPTURES IN PARTNERSHIP WITH GOD. I suspect the PREACHER trained to be a Prophet, Chaneller and Facilitator to manipulate the churches into heresy is the MOVER. The elders are being MANIPULATED by a person undoubtedly TRAINED to make you AFRAID to defend what you believed when YOU purchased the building and hired the HIRELING whose new SHEEPSKIN is stlll dripping blood. The elders are being cowardly.

They CANNOT be shepherds and be followers of Lynn Anderson etal with their DISCIPLING DILEMA or SHEPHERDING. Jesus died to give us REST from the clergy who laded burdens on people like pack animals. Jesus, Paul and T. Campbell preach that no church leaders have any right to impose burdens on people in order to create spiritual anxiety. The REST of God is a dedicated word in the Greek meaning almost exclusively:

Stop the performance preaching

Stop the singing as in charismatic (sexual or homosexual) which is the PLEASURING not patterned by Jesus and OUTLAWED by Paul in Romans 15.

Stop the music: Just stop it all, sit down, shut up and quit giving a VENUE for sexual and homosexual musical rituals. Click to see the pleasuring, excitement, singing and HERESY connection where Satan is lifting you up TO CUT YOUR THROAT or to use you for His/Her own purposes. "All singers and musicians were the HAREM of the gods."

http://www.piney.com/Heresy.Music.html

The ALL THINGS TO ALL MEN is a damnable lie told by ignorant, self-seeking illiterates:

"Alfred Martin introduces this section of Scripture with extremely accurate insight when he says,

"This paragraph has been widely misunderstood and misapplied,
as though Paul were endorsing partaking of other men's sins in order to make a good impression on them."

"It is a fact that many leaders of today's megachurch growth movement and many leaders of parachurch evangelistic organizations use this portion of Scripture to support their philosophy that

"One must become like the unsaved in order to reach the unsaved for Christ."

"However, Martin emphasizes that instead of embracing this attitude, "Paul was saying that he had tried to work with people on their own level and to give as little offense as possible in order to procure a hearing for the Gospel." Paul certainly did not become a law unto himself, nor did he pretend to act or live like the unsaved in an effort to evangelize them. The issue here concerns the amount of offense inflicted upon those who know not Christ.

See how Rubel Shelly and the other COMMUNITY church or COMMUNE leaders don't have a clue just as you do not have a clue:

http://www.piney.com/AllThingsShelly.html

This comes in several pages: be sure to look at them all. I see Rubel Shelly LOOKING BACKWARD and condemning everything HE DID and promoted. You are deliberately SOWING DISCORD and you have fallen and you will never get back up. That is the message of Enoch and Jude.

Ken

ken you say :"God through Paul told them to "teach that which has been taught" and to refute those who teach error."

do you teach Psalm 150??

+++++++++++++++++++

Please see the response near the bottom of this thread.

Hmm Machiavelli, Hegel, Hitler..... first off if your going to use famous historical figures as a point you should realize that using men who have COMPLETELY different views on humanity and politics and behavor is not the best idea. Which is Sad is you claim all musicians are the harem of the Gods??? That doesnt even make sense, Im sorry that you are so stuck in your romantic ideals of Christianity. God does not Hate music, if he does then we should really stop singing because yes the sound that comes out of our mouths is Music as well, Secondly Musicianship and Musical Worship does not equate to Homosexuality in the slightest. First off your all Pagan relgions which you are obviously refering too, Did not have Homosexual practices, Actually very few did since they honored Human Nature and the Natural Processes of Humanity. I think that you are a little to stuck in your Roman history my friend. Just take a step back, Dont worry ninety precent of these people could not honestly justify thier thinking against any educated person. If we are going to quote historical figures, this is very reminsicint of Jospeh Goebbeles. It is very easy to mislead those who do not know Truth and Fact. For those who seek the truth, Do your own study, find out the truth, Seek those who have spent years studying and seeking the true sources and know this book in its true form, not the distorted verse by verse contextual justification method that you see on this website.

TROUBLERS IN ZION is this YOU?

Tecumseh Church of Christ With Contemporary Acapella service and then:

Contemporary
Instrumental Service
@ 11:00am

It sounds like you have DELIBERATED created TWO new SECTARIAN groups. First, the Spirit of Christ inspired the resources for THE ASSSEMBLY. Paul directly OUTLAWED pleasuring which is the meaning of CONTEMPORARY A capella. Next, Paul commanded the ONLY way to GLORIFY GOD is with one MIND and one MOUTH using "that which is written."

You violate the EXAMPLE of Jesus NOT to PLEASURE the crowd (meaning sexually), Paul's direct command in Romans 15, Eph 5 and Col 3 and ALL of church history which KNEW that Satan introduced MUSIC into the young and ignorant to SILENCE THE WORDS OF JESUS.

By this VIOLATION of clear commands you INTEND to GLORIFY the musical PERFORMERS where "theatrical performers" as well as "A capella" always conveyed HARMONY meaning, under Abbadon, moving together as in a homosexual ritual. You LIE black lies about ALL of the Bible and church history to find AUTHORITY when the PEJRFORMERS know that it is Biblically claimed to have come with Satan or Lucifer or ZOE called "the singing and harp playing prostitute" as the king/Queen of Tyre wanted to be REMEMBERED as a male.

The Serpent is not a snake in the Garden and in your church but a Musical Enchanter. In Revelation it is the MUSICAL HARLOT from Babylon whose instrumentalists and musicians (Muses or Locusts) will go back into HELL with her just as Lucifer as the king/Queen of Babylon rotted and burned up on a bed of maggots along with HER harps and harpists. SHE wholly seduced Even while HE/She took Adam without a struggle. The PRODUCT was Cain who is said to be OF that Wicked One. Cain means a MUSICAL NOTE and that is the MARK of the BEAST in Revelation. ZOE (Eve whom Paul warned you about) was called the BEAST AND THE FEMALE INSTRUCTING PRINCIPLE.

When Jesus wanted to OUT Judas as indwelled by THE DEVIL He hand fed him the SOP which has the same base as PSALLO or "melody." It means to GRIND THE ENEMY into a fine powder to defeat them. By SPEAKING ON YOUR OWN in songs you PROVE the MARK of Jesus that you are OF THE DEVIL who speaks on his own. Psalm 41 prophesied that Judas would try to TRIUMPH OVER Jesus where the word means to "play instruments and make a joyful noise before the Lord." This was NEVER worship but the Warrior's PANIC music made more powerful by singing the INSTRUMENTAL PSALMS which are all BATTLE SONGS to drive the enemy into retreating.

YOU BOAST ABOUT DRIVING OWNERS OUT OF THEIR PROPERTY AND BOAST THAT THEY HAVE BEEN REPLACED. That sounds like a PERVERT who had driven the HUSBAND out of the house so HE can inherit the WEALTH and FAMILY. That defins a ROBBER and that is what you BOAST of. God will never forget or forgive LYING AND STEALING which is part of the Promise Keepers PURPOSE DRIVEN CULT where they boast of SHEPHERDING or introducing the DISCIPLING DILEMA which is the Purpose Driven Cult's 40 day plan. God used it to TEST Israel at Mount Sinai and they FELL into musical idoltrry. God PERMITTED Satan to use the 40 DAY PLAY on Jesus but He failed and YOU will fail on those who are CHRISTIANS. And all of the literature including the BOOK OF ENOCH quoted 128 times in the NT by Jesus, Peter and Jude says that MUSICAL PERVERSION is the MARK of already fallen and the eternal story is that YOU will never get back up. That is why the BELIEVERS are FLEEING BABYLON before the BURNING BEGINS.

Paul OUTLAWED both charismatic (homosexual) SINGING or anything which would AROUSE people as well as EXTERNAL melody which would be a MARK and a CAUSE of the "uncovered prophesying women" in 1 Cor 11:5 RULING OVER YOU. Flute-girl was a synonym for PROSTITUTE. That is why Jesus CAST OUT the musical minstrels like one CASTS OUT DUNG. Their "music" was just WAILING and Paul defines the same thing as like SOUNDING BRASS and TINKLING SYMBOLS. These were LIFELESS INSTRUMENTS or CARNAL WEAPONS. They were used by WITCHES, prostitute meaning musicians and by WARRIORS to move people OUT OF THEIR COMFORT ZONE.

To any LITERATE Bible reader INSTRUMENTS are the MARK of Anti-Christ because they ALWAYS attempt to tell a Holy God: Shut your face. But, you will end up at the same place as the Babylon Whore for the following reasons:

When God gave His COVENANT OF GRACE at Mount Sinai the people ROSE UP TO PLAY. This was MUSICAL idolatry and PLAY always implied SEXUAL PLAY which is what is passing between the SINGY-CLAPPY BOYS and their WORSHIPERS. God TURNED THEM OVER to Worship The Starry host including Saturn whose Chaldee number is 666. God PLUGGED the ears and BLINDED the eyes of the Israelites and they REMAINED blind until they would turn to Christ. The MUSIC was driving them into captivity and death defined much like God driving MUSICAL PERVERTS into hell with MUSICAL INSTRUMENTS. Jerusalem from which your ILLITERATE leaders get their authority is called SODOM:

http://www.piney.com/Isa30LXX.html

God IS SHAKING the world once again and YOU are the trumpet tooters: your TOOTING is a MARK and cannot be rubbed of.

Heb 12: 18 For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest,

Heb 12: 19 And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the WORD should not be spoken to them any more:

Heb 12: 20 (For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a BEAST (ZOE) touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart:

Heb 12: 21 And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake:)

Heb 12: 22 But YE are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

Heb 12: 23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

Heb 12: 24 And to JESUS the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

Heb 12: 25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:

Heb 12: 26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.

Heb 12: 27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.

Heb 12: 28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:

Heb 12: 29 For our God is a CONSUMING FIRE.

God is SHAKING you with MUSIC to SEPARATE those with the mark of the beast (ZOE=Music) from those with the MARK of the WORD which you are TRYING TO SILENCE.

Saleuo (g4531) sal-yoo'-o; from 4535; to waver, i.e. agitate, ROCK, topple or (by impl.) destroy; fig. to DISTURB, INCITE: - move, shake (TOGETHER), which can [-not] be shaken, stir up.

Salpigc (g4536) sal'-pinx; perh. from 4535 (through the idea of quavering or reverberation): a TRUMPET: - trump (- et).

And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound Re.8:13

Harmony includes MOVING TOGETHER: the Cynics or DOGS or Catamites or Sodomites MOVED TOGETHER in harmony and they had VOCAL BANDS often making animal noises. The Jewish Clergy HOPED that John the Baptist wore SOFT clothing of a Catamite but Jesus said that they hoped in vain:

And as they departed, Jesus began to say unto the multitudes concerning John, What went ye out into the wilderness to see? A reed shaken with the wind? Mt.11:7

The REED the perverted, musical ritualist carried was a THYRUS. It was like an ox goad tipped with a pine cone. When they couldn't persuade you they stabbed you with the shaken reed. The Judas symbol was the Judas Bag which carried the "mouthpieces of wind instruments." Women who sang and played at the same time were MARKED as prostitutes. Males would never do that unless they were DRUNK ON WINE or SODOMITES.

The Dionysus clergy in Jerusalem still lusted for the Abominaiton of Desolation which included sex and music in the Holy Places (church in type) and TESTED Jesus by PIPING hoping that He and the disciples would SING and DANCE the perverted choral where BOWING TO BAAL meant to be piped down with music.

However, because you have been MARKED and USED to call on the ROCKS and MOUNTAINS to fall on you and save you, you have ALSO forced the tiny, faithful few to FLEE FROM BABYLON because time is short and YOU will go back into HELL to rest on a bed of MAGGOTS along with your SINGERS and INSTRUMENTALISTS.

And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee; Re.18:22

Your whole STEALING THE CHURCH HOUSE OF WIDOWS IS BASED ON BLACK LIES BY YOUR CLERGY. IT HAS NO REMOTE CONNECTION WITH THE CHURCH OF CHRIST AND JESUS WILL COME TO REMOVE "CHRIST" PRETTY SOON. IT IS A MARK.

Part of the CULT is that you claim POWERS for the Elders which God never gave them. And you try to use PSYCHOLOGICAL FORCE to silence anyone from leaving and discussing your blasphemous heresy. The PURPOSE DRIVEN CULT is radically Calvinistic: claiming that the guy in Georgia was caused by God to kill those officials and then CAUSED him to go to a house where the lady was reading the BOOK just so she could tell him that he was predestined to be an EVANGELIST in prision to, as blasphemers always say, SAVE MORE SOULS. Sure, Larry King slicked Rick Warren into agreeing. This is a LIE and you cannot even TOUCH that book without claiming that GOD CAUSED you do do what you are doing to DRIVE AWAY the owners so that YOU could steal the property to USE music to SAVE MORE SOULS. Both blasphemous and INSANITY which WAS the DRIVING PURPOSE of the musical perverts: to drive you into a charismatic fit to STEAL YOUR MONEY.

http://www.piney.com/Charismatic.html

Eat, Drink and Make Mary or Tom or Dick or Harry because YOU bear the MARK.

James 4:1-4
What is the source of your quarrels and conflicts among you? Is it not the source of your pleasures that wage war with your members? You lust and do not have; so you commit murder. You are envious and cannot obtain; so you fight and quarrel. You do not have because you do not ask.* You ask and do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, so that you may spend it on YOUR pleasures. You adulteresses, do you not know that friendship with the world is hostility toward God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes him an enemy of God.

*When you talk to God what do you talk about? Do you ask only to to satisfy your desires(legalism)? Do you talk to God at all or have you become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal?!? Do you seek God's approval for what you already plan to do? Your prayers will become powerful when you allow God to change your desires so that they perfectly correspond to HIS will for you.

1 John 3:21-22
Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence before God; and whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep his commandments and do the things that are pleasing in His sight.

MIke,
I didn't know you felt this way to want we are doing. It just blows my mind on some of the ways you feel. When I read this I weep for all the church. it make me sad to find out about this after you told me on monday about this. I never dream how deep the hurt went and for that i'm sorry you came to your answer. I will always pray for you and your family
you are the one after all who showed me how to get closer to god in my personal walk with him. so i'm just going to end this by saying, I love you in christ but I guess our view as it stands now have two diffrent roads. But has long as we meet up in heaven it will be worth all the stuff that the world and satin tries to rip us apart. So do me a favor don't let this rip us apart.

in love
big j

dear sir (the originator of post)

i have to ask you a question. why didn't you leave during the first time your church split? why are you causing this divide in your church now? why don't you just leave the church without dragging people with you and causing young christians to lose their faith? you said "God help us" in your closing, you should have said "God help me." i would hate to be the man to cause a another to stumble. being the so called "friend" you were to this pastor why didn't you confide in him? so much for the prayer partner relationship, huh? i guess your friendship wasn't that deep was it? you show me in the bible where he (the pastor) is doing something wrong and i will show you how you're a hypocrite. you are not the man of God that you think you are. you are a person that i have read about in the bible and i always called them a "pharisee." the legalism you love to hold isn't going to get you to heaven. nope the type of relationship this pastor has with God will. the division you have caused is immeasurable. i can't and don't want to think of those you have caused to never come back to church in general ever. i pray for your soul and the souls of the people you have hurt in this selfish act. the movtives behind this is obviously something else yet the pride in you won't let it be known. something to think about mr. holy. take care and sleep good.

from,
one of those you hurt

Just look at what you have done..... Most of the people do not know the problems you have mentioned. They do not know our loving church body. Shame on you. Satan has come into our assembley, you opened the door and let him in. If we are Christians why was there not a meeting amoungest the members, are we not civil adults that can set down and talk about our problems. We should have had a meeting to discuss, along with prayer this instead of letting it get this far and putting it out in ciber space for every perverted person to read. There are so many people reading this and giving their openions and don't even know what they are talking about, because they were not there. I am their, and I do see somethings that could cause a problem, but nothing that couldn't have been worked out, If you where there all the time and got more involved in what was going on you could have a say so. You are not there as much to see what is happening anymore. There is going to be so many new babs in Christ that will not understand this and will be lost once more. The health of our Elders one inperticular, that is loved by everyone the stress that he is going through, I pray for you Brother B.C. We love you so very much and your put right in the middle, I am so sorry. Here is the solution, a prayer meeting, and discussion, if either side is not willing to do this than what hope do we have if we can't get along here how will we in Heaven? As far as small groups have you not had Teen devos in your home? Did you not get to know the kids better? That is what small groups are all about unity and love, while studing the word of God. We were studing the book of James before this study and used the NIV, King James, and study concordances, so we could understand the background of James and the time the book was written. So if your not in a small group how can you judge them. The first century Christian meet in other Christians homes daily, and were with each other all the time. Peace be with you. This was written with love.

I cannot believe you that you would go behind your friends back and do this to him. Don't you even know God? The bible says to go to your friend not to go behind his back. Are you so stuck in your docterine (which isn't even in the Bible) that you cannot worship with a band? Or that you cannot use a stinking overhead? So what if people aren't bringing their bibles the WORD OF GOD is still infront of them on the overhead. Its for the people who may not have a bible. Are you so consumed in your docterine and YOUR elders that you cannot look it up in the Bible for yourself about these things? Did Jesus hand out Bibles everytime he tought? You make me sick, none Christians are coming to this web site and they see what you have written and they are getting discouraged. Christians are supposed to uplift and to bring the lost in and teach them. And the only thing that you have taught is that you are all about the world and that your not concerned about God, just the world. AND OH HOW WILL PEOPLE SEE IT? Did Jesus not teach to the prostitutes? Did he not go into the bars and teach to them. God loves everyone they are all his children. Are you blind? Do you have scales over your eyes? And you know what its a good thing that he teaches from diffrent bibles you know why? KJV is written from King James and there are other intrupritations of the Bible. Most pastors don't want to take the time to show you the other versions. Its a good thing to see what the other bibles say unless you want to be so closed minded that you only want to believe King James about what God said even though he added and deleated things from the original Bible. Your Pastor is bringing in people and teaching them the truth about God and you now want him gone becuase he is doing exactly what God has instructed his people what to do. Shame on you!

I really don't know the exact root of the problem. I don't think I want to know. But I know this. On Sunday morning
Im going to have to pick which "side" Im on.
Here's my problem, on this side I have Brothers in Christ that I deeply love, Brothers and Sisters who didn't give up on me when I was lost.Brothers who talked me back into a relationship with someone I had denied to come into my life for so long,
A brother who baptised me when I finally felt that I could no longer accept the life I was living.
I look up to the examples that they set for me!
Then I look on the other side.
I see Brothers and Sisters in Christ who Welcomed me and my family with hugs. They accepted me for what I was,
They councelled me when I was in need, They Prayed for me when I couldn't Pray for myself. They held me up when I couldn't walk.They loved me when I couldn't love.
Ive been back in church for less than a year, I was baptised on February 6th,2005.
Yesterday I had a loving "NEW" Family.
I had hugs and kisses and laughter and new friends to keep me in prayer.
Tomorrow I lose half of my family, Family that I have grown to love,
And as I sit here trying to type with tears in my eyes I'm
wondering "WHY".

Im not going to bash the people I love, Rick Warren taught me that.
Im not going to judge the people I love, JESUS taught me that.
If you are not a christian or if your a new christian and your reading this, dont let it discourage you.
There is a God and there is Satan and Both are at work in this situation.
We are TESTED daily, some will pass, some will fail.
Tomorrow "I" will be tested.
And If "MY Family" has taught me nothing else,They have taught me that God will be with me tomorrow.
I hope I don't let him down like I have so many times before.

"I LOVE YOU ALL"

Congratulations, to the host of this website, you wolf in sheep's clothing, you whitewashed sepulcher. You have successfully brought about division in Christ's Church. I for one, am secure in my belief that Jesus died for me. In that selfless act of submission, he redeemed not only my sinful self, but the rest of mankind. We are working daily to save one more for Jesus. Through divisiveness and serpentry (meaning circumnavigating the biblical mandates for dispute resolution) you have led another congregation to the brink of disaster. I am not afraid for the elders or those of us who already have a deep relationship with Jesus, we shall prevail. I am shedding tears as I type for those you are choking with your weeds of dissent, those who have fresh faith and are eager to serve God, but have not sufficient roots to survive an assault like this. I will continue to pray for them and you.
May God have mercy on you.

Instrumental music in the Church? Let God tell us how to worship God!

God’s Word makes it plain and simple on how God requires us to worship him.

The first thing that you must know when it comes to the subject of God, and what is appropriate in our worship service to God, is that your opinion means absolutely nothing in the eyes of God. Peter tried to give his opinion once on how God’s business should be conducted but then God himself spoke out and set the record straight on who we should be listening to if we want to please God:


M't:17:4: Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias;

M't:17:5: While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.


If you are going to speak on the subject of what God would have us do, you would be wise to back it up with book, chapter and verse; use God’s word. If not, it would be best to just keep your worthless opinions to yourself:


1Pe:4:11: If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

That could not be stated any clearer; could it?

Be very careful how you handle God’s business. We are not the authority on how things should be done.

We can only follow instructions and the examples of the early Christians.

Ac:2:41: Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
Ac:2:42: And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers
2Th:2:15: Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
Eph:4:14: That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
1Tm:4:1: Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2Tm:4:3: For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;


Now that we got that fact established, let us see how musical instruments fit into God’s instructions for worship.


(There is not even one example of an early Chistian using a mechanical instrument in a worship service to God for us to follow. This ommission of mechanical instruments in early Church worship service did not occur by accident or mistake. God does not make mistakes. If it would have been included as an example to all Christians to follow then it would have contradicted the next bible fact.)


God is not to be worshiped with hands.


Ac:17:24: God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
Ac:17:25: Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;

And before you start using your feet, toes, knees, elbows, or some other creative way to play musical instruments in order to worship God, just keep in mind that Jesus said: "God is a spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth."


Joh:4:23: But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
Joh:4:24: God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.


This question goes out to those who are sincerely seeking to please God. It is not addressed to those of you who do not love and respect the Word of God. It is not addressed to those who could not care less about how God has instructed us to worship him, and are more concerned with the self gratification they get from being entertained. It is not addressed to those who only seek fame and praise from the audience of the Church. No, this question is not for you if you are in the later categories, because you are not spiritually ready for it. (You can decide which category you are in.)

This question is for those who only want to "get it right" when it comes to God; It is for those of us who want to be ready when we stand before the Lord in the Day of Judgment.

The question is:

If God is not to be worshiped with "men’s hands" (and the key word is worshiped),and if God is a spirit and must be worshiped in spirit and truth, can a Christian justify playing a guitar, piano, or any other instrument in order to worship God???


Heb:13:15: By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name.
Eph:5:19: Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;
Heb:2:12: Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.
Col:3:16: Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.

Let all things be done for the edification of the saints.

1Co:14:26: How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.


Some people think that playing an instrument for the church would edify the members of the church just as much as singing, preaching, and praying.

It is biblically impossible for the plucking or playing of a mechanical instrument to edify a Christian on the level of singing, preaching or praying. A mechanical instrument can appeal to the carnal side of man/woman but can never be considered spiritual edification.

The Greek words for edify (edify means ‘to make understand or enlighten; inform, educate, instruct, improve; teach’) are Oikodomeo/Oikodome and they are defined as the systematic building, constructing, and confirming of someone or something.

On a spiritual level, when a person is edified they are educated, instructed, and enlightened by another person through the preached word, song, prayer, or kind word of encouragement. When a person edifies another they build them up or make them feel replenished spiritually.

A mechanical instrument cannot sing, preach, or pray, therefore it cannot edify anyone on a spiritual level. Many men and women have been built up (edified) through the preached Word, song, and prayer. We have no earthly New Testament example of any Christian in the Bible being spiritually edified through a mechanical instrument.

Last but not least, there was no Old Testament Church for us to follow the examples of and we are not under the Law of Moses. Christ nailed that law to the Cross.

Col:2:13: And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
Col:2:14: Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

So there you have it.

Let’s recap the biblical facts:

1. God does not need, want, or even value our opinions on how to worship him. We are instructed to hear his beloved Son.
2. If we are to speak, let us speak as the oracles of God.
3. We are to continue steadfastly in the doctrine and tradition of the early Christians.
4. God is not to be worshipped with the hands of men.
5. God is a spirit, and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
6. We are instructed to teach and admonish one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.
7. All things should be done for the edification of the Church.
8. Mechanical Instruments can not edify anyone.
9. We are not commanded to follow the worship examples of an Old Testament Church; there never was one.

We should let God tell us how to worship God.

Lu:4:4: And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.

Any questions?




In Jesus'name.

In my readings I just happend (Maybe not, I would like to think God lead me to this so as to give you something to think about) to come across these verses from the book of John.

John 5:39-40

"You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. Theses are the Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to to have life."

You can site book chapter and verse all you want but it is obvious that you are not teaching with the love that Jesus gives you and the rest of us everyday. Keeping beating people over the head with your bible and when they get a head ache they will seek out churches who have Advil.

I'll pray for you all.

You guys are beating the AUDIENCE over their head and heart with your abnormal body: H. Bamfort Parkes notes of the first PROPHESIERS which is THE OLDEST PROFESSION because it combined occupations that they were always "emotionally or sexually abnormal." There is no other history and that is why PAUL insisted that the MUSIC be in the heart and NOT break out into the open. This would create the PLEASURING or CHARISMATIC feeling always meaning sexual or homosexual (Rom 15)

In 1 Cor 13 Paul compared LIFELESS INSTRUMENTS (or Carnal Weapons) to WITCHCRAFT with a hi-tek FAMILIAR SPIRIT or empty wineskin as an echo chamber to get a message from the "gods" or to the SOUNDING BRASS echo chamber which was used as an AMPLIFIER to frighten the enemy into panic. That is the base meaning of PSALLO. Psallo has the BASE meaning of:

Psocho (g5597) pso'-kho; prol. from the same base as 5567; to triturate, i.e. (by anal.) to rub out (kernels from husks with the fingers or hand): - rub.

TRITURATE means to Grind into a FINE POWDER. That was the intention of ALL musical instruments. That included the flute-girls meaning prostitutes who SEDUCED the customers in Corinth to steal their TITHES AND OFFERINGS before they could return home with food for the children.

The resulting SOUND is a TWANGING or sound which with the BOW intended to GRIND YOU INTO BITS: that is the BASE meaning of Psallo. It has the same BASE meaning of the SOP Jesus hand ground for Judas and SIGNALED that Satan would come into him. It WAS prophesied that Judas would try to silence Jesus with MUSIC!

That WORD actually OUTLAWS the use of music--if you had not hired a BLIND preacher.

Ken

Let us cut to the quick and begin by focusing on the word psalm. Mr. Webster defines it as a sacred song, hymn, or prayer contained in the Book of Psalms. Now, the layman would stop there, but let us investigate deeper and look at the Greek word for psalm. Psalmos: song sung to the harp, which is a derivative of the greek word psallein: to pluck, play the harp. Therefore, in not so many words, this clearly illustrates that instrumental worship was accepted and INSPIRED by God, who used David(a man described by God as a man after his own heart), and other psalmists as vehicles to give us 150 examples. God endorsed and encouraged these instrumental accompanied pieces(Eph 5:19, Col 4:16). As far as being inspired, his suffering were prophesied in psalm 22 and his ressurection was predicted in psalm 16:9-11 (Luke 24:44)

Even though the book of psalms is contained in the old testament, it is not a part of Mosaic Law and therefore is not nailed to the cross. It is a collection of songs with a musical instrument accompaniment.

Psalm 150

Praise ye the Lord. Praise God in his sanctuary: praise him in the firmament of his power.
2 Praise him for his mighty acts: praise him according to his excellent greatness.
3 Praise him with the sound of the trumpet: praise him with the psaltery(ancient zither) and harp.
4 Praise him with the timbrel and dance: praise him with stringed instruments and organs.
5 Let every thing that hath breath praise the Lord. Praise ye the Lord

Luke 24:44 - And he said unto them " These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, comcerning me.

Eph: 5:19 - Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;

Col: 4:16 - Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another(Edifying) in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.

Rev 5:8 - And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials of odours, which are the prayers of the saints.

Rev 5:9 - And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people and nation;

Shalom

Chris, why don't you slaughter innocent animals to which the Levitical Warrior Musicians were attached: only in Canaan, only in Judah, only in Jerusalem, only AT the temple.

Always in the court yard slaughter pens and burning altar and dung heeps. NEVER in the Holy Place as a type of the Body of Christ where the furniture spoke of the SYNAGOGUE which the officials repudiated. At the same time the PEOPLE'S congregation never sang, never played, never danced and never killed innocent animals: in fact God OUTLAWED in for the Qahal or synagogue or "church in the wilderness.'

Any singer or musician who entered the type of the CHURCH OF CHRIST would have been instantly EXECUTED by his brethren Levites.

Your MUSIC which the Bible calls NOISE in MOCKING and imitating the death of Christ on the Cross just as your Levitical PATTERNISTS did as prophesied and fulfilled. If you have FORCED your slimy bodies into the HOLY PLACE where worship must be REVERENT and with GODLY FEAR you have MARKED yourself and God makes a promise to you:

For our God is a consuming fire. Heb 12:29

Revelation 18 promises that the AGENTS of the Holy Whore of Babylon will all go back into hell with her. As the king/queen of Babylon "to rest on a bed of MAGGOTS along with his/her harps and harpists" as a TYPE of HELL which was "Solomon's music grove" where they burned babies to a musical beat to GET A MESSAGE FROM HELL.

Paul used the word SPEAK, TEACH and ADMONISH which and used words like PSALLO and PSALMOS and ODE which BY THEIR DEFINITION define HEBREW CANTILLATION which is SPEAKING or READING with a small range of notes or natural inflections of the human voice. IF you cannot hear then you cannot HEAR what the people doing SYNAGOGUE heard and what ALL of the church fathers understood and what ALL of the denominational founders heard and what ALL of the denominations in the USA prior to the hostile takeover of AWAKENINGS and VOODOO music in the 1800s heard CLEARLY.

In 1 Cor 13 Paul compared LIFELESS INSTRUMENTS (or Carnal Weapons) to WITCHCRAFT with a hi-tek FAMILIAR SPIRIT or empty wineskin as an echo chamber to get a message from the "gods" or to the SOUNDING BRASS echo chamber which was used as an AMPLIFIER to frighten the enemy into panic. That is the base meaning of PSALLO. Psallo has the BASE meaning of:

Psocho (g5597) pso'-kho; prol. from the same base as 5567; to triturate, i.e. (by anal.) to rub out (kernels from husks with the fingers or hand): - rub.

TRITURATE means to Grind into a FINE POWDER. That was the intention of ALL musical instruments. That included the flute-girls meaning prostitutes who SEDUCED the customers in Corinth to steal their TITHES AND OFFERINGS before they could return home with food for the children.

Psalmos means a SONG. There is NO DEFINITION of "a song played with a harp." You would have to use THREE words: (1) sing, (2) PLUCK and (3) define WHAT is to be plucked.

Otherwise, instrumentalists get their AUTHORITY from the foot of the old towers of babbling where Nimrod had his own Musical Worship Team "to generate morals through external means."

Psalmos EXCLUDES music by INCLUDING cantillation or speaking. It hsas the same meaning as our SONG. When we say "sing us a song" we do NOT mean "with a banjo." and IF we want to ADD the banjo then we must say SING us a SONG and PLAY (pluck) the BANJO. Still can't get it, huh."

Furthermore, Peter warning you about Paul and simplistic treatment of his "scriptures"--hit the ANTI- music theme from so many directions that only those WISHING to ignore the word could handle it with dishonesty. First, look at the word for SONG which is an ODE which excludes instruments and includes SPEAK except in those Greek resources which use Psallo to identify the usual PLUCKING on the harp. We have told you that EVERY example used to prove that Psallo INCLUDES plucking follows the same procedure: you MUST tell people what to PLUCK or they might yank out your hair. In addition, ALL of this plucking of the strings is in the context of homosexual grooming of a young boy where priests ALWAYS had their "youth ministers of the gods."

Psalmos (g5568) psal-mos'; from 5567; a set piece of music,
i.e. a sacred ode
accompanied with
the VOICE,
harp
or other instrument;

a "psalm"); collect. the book of the Psalms: - psalm. Comp. 5603.

Twila Paris or Fanny Crosby or the Voodoo groups who originated "GOSPEL singing" DO NOT write a SACRED ODE.

When the word PSALMOS or SONG is to be sung the HUMAN VOICE is always the FIRST INSTRUMENT OF CHOICE unless you specify OTHERWISE. A BARE-BONES PSALMOS is an ODE and odes EXCLUDES instruments and excludes SINGING in our sense of the word.

Ode (g5603) o-day'; from 103; a chant or "ode" the gen. term for any words sung; while 5215 denotes espec. a religious metrical composition,
and 5568 (psalmos) still more spec. a Heb. CANTILLATION): - song.

Therefore, when you ODE the Psalms or inspired Bible Text you CANNOT have an instrument. If you can't grasp the INTERNAL melody or Grace and insist on using a HARP then Peter's warning is for YOU.

If you again ODE you have to shut your machine's MOUTH.

Using PSALLO we have shown you you can ONLY PLUCK strings which means to yank the string and suddenly LET GO to twang or LEAVE A MARK. That is because Apollo or Abaddon is the FATHER of musical melody and always plucked his BOW and his LYRE in the same event.

Because you rest the deliberate sowing of discord on PSALLO, you cannot STRUM or use a PICK. You cannot blow a flute (meaning to pollute or prostitute) you cannot beat on the cymbal which is a SYMBOL of the LOCUSTS in Hebrew.

According to the Britannica "Melody as TUNEFULNESS belongs to the 19th century." Even then, melody DEMANDS a series of SINGLE TONES and would OUTLAW harmony.

You see, the definition of an ODE makes it CLEAR that PSALMOS is a HEBREW CANTILLATION. You cannot SING and CANTILLATE at the same time any more than you can WALK and RUN at the same time.

By the pale moon light you can SEE that Paul used the word SPEAK. That means speak as in speak.

The SPEAKING was one to another to TEACH: you cannot SPEAK with your guitar pick or by body worship. Paul called them LIFELESS INSTRUMENTS which means CARNAL WEAPONS. You cannot battle principalities and powers in high places who BROUGHT you music to DIVERT you from God's Word by the use of INSTRUMENTS which all authorities admit are claimed to connect to the Devil or Lucifer "the singing and harp playing prostitute.'

The purpose as in the SYNAGOGUE OF CHRIST where He invites the twos and threes to "come learn of me" was to SPEAK, to TEACH and to ADMONISH.


There was a LAW against "playing instruments and making a joyful noise before the Lord" when you ASSEMBLED which was only for instructions, to read or rehearse the Word.

In Romans 15 PLEASURING (charismatic) is outlawed because the assembly was to GLORIFY GOD using one MIND and one MOUTH and speaking "that which is written." Those songs and sermons were written by the Spirit of Christ.

That is the meaning of ODEING or SPEAKING which was always UNISON until witchcraft and voodoo got into "gospel music" in the 19th century AWAKENINGS which were quite identical to devil worship in Iraq.

Paul warned in Ephesians 5 "don't get drunk with wine." That was a POINTY word which points to the Greek gatherings where one got FLUTED or PIPED down with wine: music and wine make a successful BUSINESS.

"But perhaps nothing was more characteristic of the mystery religions than what they called ecstasy. Believers in the mystery religions sought to cultivate a magical, sensuous communion with the divine. They would do almost anything to get themselves into a semiconscious, hallucinatory, hypnotic, or orgiastic spell in which they believed they were sensually in contact with deity. Some used wine to assist in the euphoric experience, as Paul implied in Ephesians 5:18. Whether from literal intoxication or emotional exhilaration, when worshipers fell into a state of euphoria, it was as if they had been drugged. They assumed they were in contact with God. (MacArthur, John, Charismatic Chaos, p. 164. Zondervan)

This EMOTIONAL drunkeness was not from just drinking wine as people don't drink wine without MUSIC to take more money from the customer. The word Paul used is used to mean to PIPE DOWN or FLUTE DOWN with wine. Because the wine was often fairly mind, the INTOXICATION was defined as spiritual intoxication with passion and pride.

If you ODE the PSALMS Paul has told the AWAKE people that the MODE is not MUSICAL but is COMMANDED to be CANTILLATION. Cantillation is simply raising the pitch of the voice and stretching out the syllables with the normal inflection of SPEAK in order to make your voice heard by a crowd. There was no charismatic SINGING and no INSTRUMENTS in the synagogue or School of the Bible. They spoke the word, Jesus SPOKE the Word, Paul SPOKE the Word and DIRECTLY COMMANDED that we SPEAK the Word.

We have shown you that the MUSICAL words Paul EXCLUDED by INCLUDING the human voice and heart as the INSTRUMENT speak of the homosexual wine and music festivals. They also specificially INCLUDE the form of HEBREW CANTILLATION and that EXCLUDES a Musical worship Team of strange guys promising to LEAD YOU INTO THE PRESENCE OF GOD. They produce intoxication in fact, this was often seen as DRUNK ON IGNORANCE.

I will post this in the other place just so YOU will get the message--I doubt that very much because you theatrical performers are driven by self-worship but God saw them at Mount Sinai and you guys as a LAUGHINGSTOCK and outing more than you may want to confess.

Ken

Sir who ever you are this subject has nothing to do with your sick twisted mind. Please seek out another chat room to voice your sick and twisted meanings. You have no idea how crazy you sound. We should all be praying for your lost soul. Tonya

interesting way you seem to want to please God. you don't come across with love at all. you sound more mean than you do anything else. the exact reason most folks don't choose to follow God. arrogant, mean christians are the biggest deterent to Christ's church. now, about this chat room, forum area. why is it that you think that those of us close to the situation in michigan need you to spew your "knowledge" of the bible on us. i know one of our memebers posted it on the web and it's your right. think of the hurt that has been caused and how you seem to just add to it with your arrogance. please we don't anymore pain are just looking to be a family again. so i ask you as a another christian please stop and use your time seeking out nonbelievers instead of quarreling over the pettiness of what this room represents. thanks and God Bless!

Before we study the New Testament to see what it has to say about musical instruments, we must first ask ourselves if there has been any Bible requirement to change the principle or practice of the playing of musical instruments. I have studied and looked for such a change and have not been able to find it. Some have claimed that their use went out with the first covenant, but such is not the case, as their use was not directly connected to the first covenant. We have just shown that musical instruments were used before the first covenant was established. Also, we have shown that the use of musical instruments was a reality in the practical day-to-day lives of the Old Testament people and was not always associated with a divine requirement or commandment of God. Some have dismissed musical instruments because the Mosaic Law has been fulfilled in Christ, however, the use of musical instruments was not a part of the Mosaic Law. "Thou shalt play musical instruments when worshipping God" or "Thou shalt not play musical instruments when worshipping God" cannot be found as one of the Mosaic commandments. Therefore, the burden of proof that God changed His mind, and therefore His requirement, and now does not allow musical instruments, rests with the anti-instrument people.

What does the New Testament say about musical instruments? There are at least four scriptural realities that are mentioned in the New Testament. They can be summarized by the following statements:

1. God's true New Testament Church is admonished to use musical instruments.
2. Musical instruments are used in heaven in the worshipping of God.
3. The New Testament saints are symbolically described as musicians.
4. Babylon, the false church and/or place of confusion, is characterized as a city
void of musical instruments.

We will look at each statement separately.

1. God's true New Testament Church is admonished to use musical instruments - If we are to understand God's divine will we must study the Bible, and not merely read it. The following scriptures contain hidden truths that we easily could miss if we were to simply read over them:

a) Colossians 3:16-17 "Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord. And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him."

b) Ephesians 5:18-20 "And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit; Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord; Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ."

c) James 5:13 "Is any among you afflicted? let him pray. Is any merry? let him sing psalms." There is a distinct difference between a psalm, a hymn, and a spiritual song. While it is beyond the scope of this study to differentiate between the technical details of each type, it is important to know that one class of song, namely a psalm, is always sung in conjunction with musical instruments. The definition of a psalm, and comparative definitions of a hymn and spiritual song (taken from a Bible concordance and dictionary), is as follows:

psalm - a set piece of music, i.e. a sacred ode accompanied with the voice, harp, or other instrument. To sing accompanied by stringed instruments. To touch, twitch, pluck, twang; strike the cords.

hymn - A religious ode. A festive song praise to God, or to a hero, or to a conqueror. A sacred song.

spiritual song - a song, chant, lay, or ode. Any kind of song; of battle, or harvest, festal or hymeneal. Songs that were composed by spiritual men, or that related to spiritual things.

We are admonished at least three different times in the New Testament to sing psalms. If it were worldly to use musical instruments, as some have supposed, why were psalms included with the list of other types of singing? Ever since The Book Of Psalms was written in the Old Testament, these psalms were always accompanied with musical instruments when they were sung. In fact, some historians believe that the word "Selah", a word found frequently throughout the Psalms of David, signified a pause in the vocal music while an instrument interlude or finale was rendered. If God has since changed His mind about the use of instruments, surely He would have given us explicit instructions to stop using them since they were so clearly connected to the singing of Psalms. However, such in not the case. In fact, the Word tells us that "whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus". As long as we are glorifying God when we sing, whether we use instruments or not, we are within the Biblical guidelines.

Having been exposed to the anti-instrument teaching, I am aware of how the anti- instrument people discard this scripture and continue to justify and defend their position of not using musical instruments. They say that these scripture teach that we should sing and make melody in our hearts. True. Everything that we do in serving the Lord must first come from the heart. If it doesn't start there, there is no sense in doing it. We must serve God with a perfect and willing heart. He knows when our heart is not in something that we are doing. However, if we are sincerely singing in our hearts, or playing instruments in our hearts, we can then manifest our singing and instrument playing on the outside, for the glory of God and edification of others.

Often it is said that if a sister has short hair in her heart, or if a brother has long hair in his heart, she or he may as well have it on their head. There is a Bible principle here and it is found in the Word of God. The Bible says in Proverbs 23:7 For as he thinketh in his heart, so is he. The same Bible principle applies to musical instruments. Some have been convinced that musical instruments are only to be played in the heart. However, I have yet to see a person play a piano or an organ, or even a violin or viola in his heart. According to this Bible principle, if you are worshipping God and at the same time playing a piano in your heart, you may as well play an actual piano as God views both as one in the same. If you were to outwardly do so, at least other saints will get to enjoy your playing if it is anointed by the Spirit. It is selfish and unscriptural to always be edifying ourselves only. Let's use our God-given talents to edify others, as God ordained.

2. Musical instruments are used in heaven in the worshipping of God - The Book of Revelation, while certainly very symbolic in nature, reveals that the angels use instruments in praising and worshipping God and doing His divine will (Revelation 8:2,6) Also, many times throughout the Word of God, angels are described as trumpet players. Each of the seven seals, or ages of time since Pentecost, were opened by the sounding of a trumpet by an angel. The scriptures reveal that the second coming of Christ will be preceded by the sounding of a trumpet (1 Cor 15:52). If angels play musical instruments in heaven and are described as always doing the will of God, then we can scripturally conclude that it is God's will that instruments be played here on earth for Jesus prayed "Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven" Matthew 6:10.

I find it ironic that well meaning anti-instrument people will rejoice over the fact that they will be given a harp to play in heaven, but would not so much as even consider playing one down here (a piano is essence a harp laid flat and put in a case; its plucked with wooden hammers instead of fingers"). Certainly heaven will be the ultimate place where we will worship and praise God. If we are going to play one over there, we ought to get at least a little practice time in down here.

3. The New Testament saints are symbolically described as musicians - In the following scriptures, we have three separate accounts of where the New Testament saints are portrayed as being musicians:

a) Revelation 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

b) Revelation 14:2-3 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps: And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

c) Revelation 15:2-3 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God. And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

If it were "worldly" to use musical instruments, as some believe, why would God portray His saints as being musicians? Would God portray His saint as being worldly? 1 John 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. The songs being sung here were songs that only saints could sing and it is obvious that the saints new song was accompanied with harps. I don't believe that God would have characterized His saints as being worldly since it is His requirement for saints to be separate from the world and the things of the world. If musical instruments, and the playing of them, were even remotely worldly, He would not have portrayed His saints that way because He admonishes us to "abstain from all appearance of evil" 1 Thessalonians 5:22. He would have not set such an example as a stumbling-block before us if the playing of instruments were indeed worldly.

4. Babylon, the false church and/or place of confusion, is characterized as a city void of musical instruments - Finally, as in the Old Testament, the New Testament characterizes Babylon, or false religion, as being a place void of musical instruments. I don't believe that this is a mere coincidence. Revelation 18:21-22 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all. And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee. Babylon has nothing to sing about, hence the noticeable absence of the use of musical instruments. She can't truly praise and worship God with sin and worldliness in her heart, because God doesn't waste His time listening. Also, God's captive people in Babylon can't sing Zion's songs in the Spirit down there because they are in a strange land. Most Babylonian churches would not tolerate the singing of a Church of God, Holy Ghost anointed song. It would, and should, bring them under conviction.

While it is true that there are worldly so-called singers and musicians down in Babylon, they are not anointed of God. The Lord views them as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal, i.e. cheap, empty, hallow and void of the Spirit. You see, for every true and good thing of God, the devil always has an imitation. This reality is true for every gift of God. The gift of tongues, the gift of healing, the gift of miracles and prophecy, are all examples of gifts that the devil has imitations for. Would some propose that we should do away with them, as they do with musical instruments, because the devil has some cheap imitation? No. James 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. It should come as no surprise to us that in the devils false church there are false gifts. However, this should in no way distracts us from obtaining and using the true gifts from God, including the use of musical instruments.

There is a distinct difference between false Babylon and the Church of God. One of those differences is in the use of musical instruments. Babylon cannot use musical instruments for the glory of God. God's Church uses them to glorify Him. She is instructed to. Where does this Bible truth find you? In the Church of God or possibly in spiritual Babylon?

Summary

It is clear, from both in the New and the Old Testaments, that God advocates the use of musical instruments. Nowhere in the Bible has that principle changed. Some have refused to use musical instruments in the worship service because they have not seen where musical instruments are explicitly named out in the New Testament. We have shown, with the help of the Lord, that they are called out in the New Testament. However even if such were not the case, there are lots of things that are not explicitly mentioned in the New Testament, but are regularly used by the saints to worship God and spread the news of the Gospel. Example: Church buildings, Revelation charts, Sunday schools, baptismal pools, preaching pulpits, altars or altar-call services. Since these things are not explicitly mentioned in the Bible, should we also apply the same principle and completely do away with them? I don't believe so, and obviously others agree, as even many anti-instrument people use these devices and objects.

The Church of God is not a building, therefore we must not limit the worshipping of God to a specific place at a specific time. We, the saints of God, are the Church of God! We should worship God 24 hours a day. We should not live a different standard in our homes than we do in our gospel meetings. Therefore if it is wrong, worldly, or even sinful to play a musical instrument in the worship meeting, as some have concluded, then we would have to conclude that it is equivalently wrong, worldly, or even sinful to play them in our homes. I know of many anti-instrument saints that play musical instruments in their homes, even accompanying Evening Light songs with musical instruments. They also sing and play musical instruments in-between services at their campmeetings, gathering around the piano to "sing praises unto the Lord". This would seem to be a double standard if it were never pleasing to God to use musical instruments to worship God.

It is one thing not to use instruments in the worship service by personal choice or preference, or by the unavailability of musicians, but it is quite another to be anti- instrument. It is unreasonable to suppose that God intended the world or false religion to have all the pleasure and benefit of instrumental music, and the church none at all. Some have gone so far as to make this no-music doctrine a test of fellowship. In other words, they have chosen to major on the minors. Being anti-instrument is being anti-Bible if the Bible supports the use of instruments. We have scripturally shown that it does. While being accompanied by musical instruments may not necessarily be a Bible requirement, but, we are admonished by the Word of God to use them if possible, and certainly they enhance our worshipping of God. However, there is no doubt that the Bible supports the use of musical instruments, and certainly it does not condemn them. I believe, and have personally witnessed, that if we will ask God to send the musicians, He will. The Holy Spirit will give the gift of music to someone either from the outside (bring them in and save them) or He will raise them up from within the existing body. Nowhere in this paper have I relied on my personal experience and observations to determine the truth on this particular issue, but I must say that I have seen God honor His Word in this area countless times. I have seen people be moved to an altar of prayer by feeling the Spirit move through soft instrumental music. I have witnessed a great Spiritual out-pouring, and a divine blessing from God, when musical instruments were played in the Spirit. However, these experiences only confirm the Word and are not the basis of this divine truth. On the other hand, I have been in services where musical instruments were not used and the song leader started out a song in the wrong key and completely killed the spirit of the song, as the selected key was way too high or too low for the saints to sing. In such cases the saints either screeched their voices or all sang bass. Certainly, there was not much harmony going on. This is especially bad when an altar call is being given and souls are making eternal decisions. This off-key singing could be a distraction to honest hearts.

Finally, some have chosen to not use musical instruments because of Church tradition. Somewhere, someplace, some man or woman said not to use them, so they don't. However, be it the Quakers, the Shakers, or the candlestick makers, be it the Church of Christ or the sixth seal Church of God, the Bible is the divine authority on this subject, and not man. As we have seen, the Bible is not silent on this subject. If we are going to be the Church of God, we must live by the Bible and the principles contained within it, and not by some Church tradition.

In conclusion, it can be simply said that musical instruments are of God and can be used to greatly enhance our inspired worship and praise of God!

________Church of Christ in Michigan
J 152.163.100.68
Had to share May 6 2005, 11:29 PM

Before we study the New Testament to see what it has to say about musical instruments, we must first ask ourselves if there has been any Bible requirement to change the principle or practice of the playing of musical instruments. ot allow musical instruments, rests with the anti-instrument people.

J: you take deep bites but you just come up never having even READ the Old Testaament. I wouldn't OUT myself either. You would FIRST have to find any command, example or remote inference that God ever COMMANDED that instruments be used in the congregation of the people. In fact, God OUTLAWED it. However, for those who have paid all of those millions for Luny Us and Phd's of misinformation, this little DROP OF ACID with take the Great Physician to remove in the laboratory.

FIRST, The serpent in the garden of Eden was not a snake: She was a Musical Enchanter. The same word connects to BRASS as in clanging and of the trumpet designed like the Red Throated Cobra of Africa. It spat venum. The same word is related to SPEAKING IN TONGUES. Lucifer or ZOE is personified as the king/queen of Tyre as "the singing and harp playing prostitute." Lucifer is personified as the king/queen of literal Babylon who went back into sheol with his harps and harpists to ROT or be consumed on a bed of MAGGOTS. She is the holy whore who will collapse as a RELIGIOUS EMPIRE as a major part of our GNP and her singers, musicians and craftsmen who are "theater builders and stage managers" and GRINDERS or prostitues will go back into hell with him/her.

Second, you should know that the King/queen of Tyre is a personification of Lucifer who wholly seduced Eve as one seduces a new bride at about the time the marriage is consummanted. Paul tells us that. The result was CAIN who was OF that evil one, the Devil. Cain means a musical note. His offspring Jubal, Jabal, Tubal-Cain and Naamah were the GENI or KABIRI or perverted enchanters who STOLE the free animals and put them in their sheep fold and then sold them back. They SEDUCED the people with MUSIC. When Jubal is said to have HANDLED musical instruments.

Taphas (h8610) taw-fas'; a prim. root; to manipulate, i. e. seize; chiefly to capture, wield; spec. to overlay; fig. to use unwarrantably: - catch, handle, (lay, take) hold (on, over), stop, * surely, surprise, take.

Handle is related to TABRET or TOPHET which was Solomon's "music grove" and came to stand for hell itself. The ORGAN speaks directly of musical seduction in a sexual way.

Third, you may remember Laban who seduced Jacob with a musical party and he was so drunk he didn't even know which woman he slept with: but, he was stuck with another seven years of hard labor.

Fourth, after the crossing of the Red Sea Moses SPAKE or RECITED the song of victory. However, Miriam (meaning a bitter, REBELLING and usurping woman) led the women to ESCAPE sith singing, dancing and musical instruments. Miriam was a prophetess of Hathor in Egypt. When she pretended to speak for god He slapped her with a dose of leprosy.

http://www.piney.com/MuMiriam.html

At Mount Sinai, God gave them THE BOOK OF THE COVENANT which was a restatement of the Covenant made with Abraham. It had no mandatory sacrifices or priesthood. The people pledged to live by this covenant which COULD GIVE LIFE. However, God TESTED them with the 40 DAY PLAN and the fell back into musical idolatry of the Egyptian Triad.

http://www.piney.com/MuSinai.html

The BECAUSE OF TRANSGRESSION was MUSICAL IDOLATRY which is the meaning of PLAY forced onto Samson and repeated by David. The consequence of this was that God saw it as a PRAYER to return to musical paganism and HE turned them over to worship the starry host. This included Saturn who is Zoe and whose Chaldee number is 666.

Stephen, the prophets and Psalms confirm that it was MUSICAL IDOLATRY which caused this fall.

http://www.piney.com/MuSinai2.html

God conditionally sentenced them to captivity and death and refused to go with them else He destroy them. Therefore, He sent his angel presence which was the Spirit of Christ.

God then gave the THE BOOK OF THE LAW which was to legislate for the lawless: it could not have any effect on the conscience or Spirit but was to regulate them until the captivity and death sentence was carried out.

Later, when they demanded a king like the nations God understood this to be so that they could Worship like the nations but they would not SURVIVE their idolatry of nationoood. God warned that the kings would take tithes and their youth. The young boys were to be used especially to make and BLOW the instruments of Chariots. Therefore, this first MUSIC band was part of the Warrior King's business and never the religious.

After the wars David took the census which intended to keep a STANDING ARMY much like a church's STAFF INFECTION. God punished him and as a CONTRACT God stopped the plague and gave David an ALTERNATIVE ALTAR at Zion which was a JEBUSITE HIGH PLACE because they PRAYED to worship like the Goyim or Babylonians or Canaanites. That is why the temple was built by Hiram and had many IDOLS.

David was too fearful to return to Gibeon to seek God and therefore remained in Jerusalem which means DUELING MOUNTAINS, a city set on seven hills and identified by John in Revelation as SODOM.

The Levitical Warrior Noise makers served to panic the enemy as one of the authorized uses of the trumpets. Therefore, when the temple was built it was NOT a worship center for the people but the King's and a National Shrine, headquarters, Bank etc. This NATIONAL music was added to the authorized Priest's trumpets but NOT for worship which meant to fall on your face and never to "sing with instrumental accompaniment." This was for dedication or purification of buildings and grounds or for dedication of kings. These events may be separated by almost 300 years. The Bible is always clear in separating the INSTRUMENTS OF DAVID the king from the TRUMPETS OF GOD which sent signals and did not make music.

This was OUTLAWED for the people's gatherings which was always for INSTRUCTION and not worship. This Qahal or synagogue was the "church in the wilderness" and common sense rejects a Musical worship team (an obscenity) when God is speaking to you.

The synagogue was for the godly people and NEVER used either singing or instruments which could be understood by any schoolboy. This never changed until in 1815 in a liberal German synagogue which SOWED DISCOURSE as it has when you did it.

All musical terms and names of instruments speak of warfare, slaughtering TYPES of Jesus Christ, innocent girl children, prostitutes, Sodomites and attributed to SATAN who brought them into the garden of Eden. For instance, the word for play the flute can also be used to "steal one's inheritance," to pollute or prostitute.

There is NO music ever used in the people's worship of God. Later, when the LOUD NOISE and not music began it was a BELL to send everyone outside of the grounds other than the sons of Aaron. The people were NOT required to assemble and if they happened to be on the sacred ground when they heard the NOISE there worship was to fall on the ground. They did not sing, clap or play: they would have been executed if they had tried.

The Levitical Warrior Musicians served the PRIESTS where service means HARD BONDAGE. They made a loud noise during the slaughtering of innocent TYPES of God in Christ, smelled the blood, heard the cries, smelled the dung, smelled the burning flesh and endure a HORROR ground and a SLAUGHTER PEN.

Neither the Levites nor ANY singer or musician ever enter the BUILDINGS. The Holy Place was a carnal TYPE of the body or church of Christ. It symbolized the WORD or seven spirits of the lamp stand, the bread of fellowship and looking INTO the Most Holy place the incense altar. These are defined as the ekklesia which was a synagogue or school of the Bible and NEVER a worship center.

Any singer or musician who entered even into a CARNAL type of the church of Christ would have been EXECUTED on the spot by his brethren. If you want to kill some TYPES of Jesus Christ then you might make a great crashing sound but not MUSIC and you MUST do so in the parking lot and EXCLUDE all of the congregation. They TYPES of the Old Testament make it clear that to bring MUSIC into the school of the Bible is a MARK or a CAUSE of spiritual death.

I don't have any kind way to say it and Jesus wouldn't have me use kindness: you are running on Biblical empty or terminal sin. Jesus CAST OUT the musical minstrels where He was doing His work "more or less violently" as one ejects dung.

More later.

The debate over the use of musical instruments in the worship service comes to a screeching halt when we look into the infallible Word of God, the source of divine truth. Men may have their own opinions and often conflicting ideas, but the foundation of God standeth sure. God's Word is plain on this subject. Man may also have his own mind-set and preconceived ideas or traditions about this subject, but if he will lay those aside and get the mind of Christ, he will be able to come to a definite Bible conclusion on the subject of the use of musical instruments in worshipping God. Let us begin our study of the Word of God.

Background

The first Biblical mention of musical instruments is found clear back in Genesis 4 where we have an account of a man by the name of Jubal who was "the father of all such as handle the harp and organ ". What he used these musical instruments for is uncertain as this is the only place in the Bible that he is mentioned. No doubt he taught others how to both build and use musical instruments because he is called the "father" of musical instruments. However, one thing is for certain, someone taught the people to build and use musical instruments for their frequent use amongst the Old Testament people of God is no small secret to the sincere Bible student.

Old Testament

We could spend countless hours studying and reviewing the scriptures to prove the use of musical instruments by the Old Testament people of God, but that will not be necessary for the purpose of the study. To deny that God's people down through the Old Testament used musical instruments in worshipping, praising, and even obeying God is to reveal a dishonesty or a mere ignorance of God's Word. For our study, we will only high-light a few Old Testament scriptures and the Biblical principles associated with them.

1. God Ordained them - In Numbers 10:1-10, we have an account of where God Himself ordained the use and the playing of instruments to rally together the people of God, to declare war on the enemy, and to memorialize the burnt offerings and sacrifices. "And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Make thee two trumpets of silver; of a whole piece shalt thou make them: that thou mayest use them for the calling of the assembly, and for the journeying of the camps. And when they shall blow with them, all the assembly shall assemble themselves to thee at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation. And if they blow but with one trumpet, then the princes, which are heads of the thousands of Israel, shall gather themselves unto thee. When ye blow an alarm, then the camps that lie on the east parts shall go forward. When ye blow an alarm the second time, then the camps that lie on the south side shall take their journey: they shall blow an alarm for their journeys. But when the congregation is to be gathered together, ye shall blow, but ye shall not sound an alarm. And the sons of Aaron, the priests, shall blow with the trumpets; and they shall be to you for an ordinance for ever throughout your generations. And if ye go to war in your land against the enemy that oppresseth you, then ye shall blow an alarm with the trumpets; and ye shall be remembered before the LORD your God, and ye shall be saved from your enemies. Also in the day of your gladness, and in your solemn days, and in the beginnings of your months, ye shall blow with the trumpets over your burnt offerings, and over the sacrifices of your peace offerings; that they may be to you for a memorial before your God: I am the LORD your God.

2. They belonged to God - We also have Old Testament scriptural accounts of where musical instruments are called:

a) Musical instruments of God (1 Chronicles 16:42)
b) Instruments of music of the Lord (2 Chronicles 7:6)

3. They accompanied the worshipping of God - We have numerous instances in the Old Testament of where Gods worshippers, both singers and shouters, were accompanied with musical instruments:

a) 2 Chronicles 5:13 It came even to pass, as the trumpeters and singers were as one, to make one sound to be heard in praising and thanking the LORD; and when they lifted up their voice with the trumpets and cymbals and instruments of musick, and praised the LORD, saying, For he is good; for his mercy endureth for ever: that then the house was filled with a cloud, even the house of the LORD.

b) 1 Chronicles 13:8 And David and all Israel played before God with all their might, and with singing, and with harps, and with psalteries, and with timbrels, and with cymbals, and with trumpets.

c) 1 Chronicles 15:16 And David spake to the chief of the Levites to appoint their brethren to be the singers with instruments of musick, psalteries and harps and cymbals, sounding, by lifting up the voice with joy.

d) 1 Chronicles 15:28 Thus all Israel brought up the ark of the covenant of the LORD with shouting, and with sound of the cornet, and with trumpets, and with cymbals, making a noise with psalteries and harps.

e) Nehemiah 12:27 And at the dedication of the wall of Jerusalem they sought the Levites out of all their places, to bring them to Jerusalem, to keep the dedication with gladness, both with thanksgivings, and with singing, with cymbals, psalteries, and with harps.

4. They could not be used in Babylon - We do have an account of where God's people did not and could not use musical instruments to worship God. It is found in Psalms 137:1-4 "Psalm 137:1-4 By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down, yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion. We hanged our harps upon the willows in the midst thereof. For there they that carried us away captive required of us a song; and they that wasted us required of us mirth, saying, Sing us one of the songs of Zion. How shall we sing the LORD'S song in a strange land? "

Here, Gods' people were out of their rightful place. Or in other words, they were misplaced. They were captive in the literal city of Babylon. Back in Zion, they were always free to sing and play the songs of Zion. But not in Babylon. Here the best that the people of God could do was to sit down, cry, and remember. Certainly they could not sing "the LORD'S song", a song accompanied with harps, by the rivers of Babylon.

5. They were used frequently - The use of musical instruments was frequent and was blessed by God. (For starters see Lev 25:9, 2 Sam 6:5, 1 Chr 16:42, 1 Chr 25:1, 2 Chr 7:6, 2 Chr 20:28, 2 Chr 23:13, 2 Chr 34:12, Psa 68:25, Psa 150:4). It is doubtless that the use of musical instruments greatly enhanced the worshipping of God in the Old Testament.

6. They were used in the house of the Lord - 2 Chronicles 20:28 And they came to Jerusalem with psalteries and harps and trumpets unto the house of the LORD. Here we have account of where God's people came unto the house of the Lord playing their musical instruments. We find no indication of where God rebuked the people for doing such. In fact, God was with His people in so much that the people of the surrounding countries were brought under fear because they knew that God was in the midst of His people and God fought their battles for them, even when they played their musical instruments "unto the house of the LORD". If, therefore, it was once a law of the God of Jacob, to ordain the use of musical instruments--to make a joyful noise to Him by singing aloud with psalms, and to praise Him with the pleasant harp, timbrel and psaltery, and with various other stringed and wind instruments--why should it not be equally right and acceptable now?

7. They were prophesied for use in New Testament Zion - Literal Old Testament Zion was merely a shadow of New Testament Zion, or the Church of God (Heb 12:22- 23). David, anointed by God Himself, wrote the following: Psalm 87:5-7 "And of Zion it shall be said, This and that man was born in her: and the highest himself shall establish her. The LORD shall count, when he writeth up the people, that this man was born there. Selah. As well the singers as the players on instruments shall be there: all my springs are in thee." Clearly, it was prophesied by David and established by God that both the singers and the players on instruments would be in the city that people are born into. Those who have understanding of this scripture know that the city spoken of here is none other than the New Testament Church of God. To get into this city, we must have God write our name in the Lamb's Book of Life, which He does when we are born again of His Spirit. In this Church, the Bible says that "the singers as the players on instruments shall be there". Such is the case in Gods true Church. The singers and players on instruments are there.

No Musical Instruments in Worship

An article by Bob Ross.

In dealing with this topic, you need to keep in mind that not all CofCs agree on this subject. So before you begin to witness to them about musical instruments, you need to find out where they stand on the issue. It would be easy to see why a person might ask, "What's the big deal if they have musical instruments, anyway?" Well in reality, it is no big deal, to you or me, but it is to them. Such a big deal, in fact, that they say if you do have musical instruments in the worship service, then your worship is in vain! But many of the same people that say it is evil to use musical instruments in worship to God in the church service, will use musical instruments to worship God at home! It's because they see some sort of invisible, nonexistent dichotomy between the church service and everyday life. It's as though you act one way in church, and another way at home.

Their main reason for outlawing musical instruments in the church service is because they say that it is not mentioned in the Bible. The CofC slogan is, "We speak where the Bible speaks; and we are silent where the Bible is silent." Unfortunately for them, ignorance is not bliss… it's just plain folly. Unbeknownst to them, the Bible very clearly does give us permission to have musical instruments in our worship to God, whether it's in a corporate worship service or in the privacy of our own home, car or wherever the Spirit might lead. Ephesians 5:19 says "... speaking to one another with psalms, hymns and spiritual songs..." and correspondingly Colossians 3:16 says to, "... admonish one another with psalms, hymns and spiritual songs." So Paul makes it clear that we are to sing "psalms," but which psalms? Obviously he is referring to the Psalms of David! And many of the Psalms say to worship God with musical instruments, such as Psalm 150. Also, many of the Psalms were directed by David to be accompanied by a musical instrument, such as a harp or lyre. We also see that the worship of God in heaven will also include musical instruments as found in Revelation 15:2.

But let's dig a little deeper into the actual definition of the word psalm. Most serious students of the Bible own a concordance. This is simply a reference book that lists all the key words and phrases in the Bible, in alphabetic order. The most commonly used concordance is called, "Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible." It's approximately 1500 pages long. It also has a Hebrew and Greek dictionary in the back, where you can actually look up certain words in the Hebrew and Greek languages, which is what the Old and New Testaments were written in, respectively. If you were to take the time to look up the word "psalm" in the Greek dictionary, you would find this definition (#5568): "A set piece of music, i.e. a sacred ode (accompanied with the voice, harp, or other instrument)." Here is a perfect example of what happens when you establish your doctrines in haste! Can you find the words "musical instruments" in the New Testament? No. "Then let's keep them out of our worship!" But wait, Brother, doesn't the word "psalm" mean: "a song accompanied by a musical instrument?" Well, at this point they will choose their tradition over the Bible, because they don't want to be confused by the facts! And if you think that's bad, you should hear some of the straws (verses) they grasp at out of context, to buttress their erroneous conclusions. There are several examples we could cite that they wrongly claim substantiates their position against musical instruments in the worship of God, but for the sake of time, we will just look at the two most common.

The first is what they call an "argument from silence." In reality it would better be described as a "straw man argument." What they say is that there were never any musical instruments used in the Temple worship, in the Old Testament. The reason that would be an issue to them is that they make a correlation between the Temple and the Church. Then you can point out that they are completely wrong in their assumption, by citing one of many scriptures, such as II Chronicles 5:12, which clearly shows musical instruments in the Temple. They will usually then come back with the moot argument that "There were no musical instruments in the Most Holy Place." Well, there were no accapella singers in the Most Holy Place, either! This is why we refer to this as a "straw man argument." It's totally without merit. It doesn't prove anything, let alone their point!

Next, they usually will cite Amos 6:5, which they claim proves that musical instruments are evil. Rather than quoting the entire chapter here, please read all of chapter six of Amos and I'm sure you will immediately see the flaws in their logic. We see in these verses that God (through the Prophet, Amos) is pronouncing woes upon those "who are at ease in Zion." And one of the sins that they were committing was that they were "inventing musical songs and instruments, just like David." First of all, if it was a sin to invent songs or instruments "like David," then it would have been a sin for David to do it, too! But this chapter also refers to them "eating beef" and "lying down on beds of ivory." Are these sins, also? NO! It is just a list of things that they were doing that revealed their apathetic hearts. It wasn't because these things were evil, in and of themselves, but because that's all they did. They were more concerned with the pleasures of their daily lives than they were with doing God's will.

So we see yet another example of how the CofC is willing to bend and stretch the Scriptures to fit their mold. But alas, anyone with "eyes to see" and "ears to hear" can quickly detect counterfeit doctrine when faced with the authentic truth of God's Word. The issue should be dealt with graciously through the words of our beloved Apostle Paul, as he attempts to deal with a similar issue in Chapter 14 of his letter to the Romans. I encourage you to stop and read the whole chapter right now. Paul simply states that on nonessential issues, such as eating meat or celebrating holidays, please don't be judgmental. If you want to eat meat or celebrate a holiday as unto the Lord, then fine. But please don't judge your brother who seeks to abstain. And I'm sure Paul would say the same thing about musical instruments, especially when he already said they were permitted in Eph. 5:19 and Col. 3:16! It is simply a personal preference. I have friends that attend churches that worship without instruments, and I say, "More power to you!" But the CofC says that if you include musical instruments in the worship of God, then your worship is Pagan (Godless)!

Now if Paul says not to judge your Brothers in non-essential issues, then the CofC is clearly overstepping their boundaries in this case. My suggestion to the CofC is to take the log out of your own eye... then you'll be able to read your Strong's Concordance better!

In addition to these comments by Mr.Ross, let me add my own illustration here, as I believe this issue touches on the heart of the exclusivity of Churches of Christ in general.

If one were to debate a Church of Christ member over the issue of musical instruments in worship services, they would usually begin by saying there are no historical or Scriptural references to instruments in worship services. Now, that may or may not be true, depending on what historical texts one reads, but, be that as it may, the instrumentalist will usually ask "What is wrong with introducing them?"
At this point the CofC member will usually respond with "Instruments would then be unauthorized, and what is unauthorized in worship is displeasing to God"

Then, the instrumentalist may ask "But what about all the unauthorized additions to worship the CofC currently employs?" At such a question, the CofC member will usually gasp in amazement, simply because, in their 'we are doing it all right' mindset, many have simply never had CofC doctrines questioned before, and are staggered that an implication that error is to be found in the CofC was actually submitted.

The CofC member will then ask "Such as?", at which point the instrumentalist names hymnbooks, microphones, loudspeakers, church buildings, etc, etc, as being unauthorized in Scriptural worship.

Here is where the logic of the CofC member breaks down, for they will try to say that those items, present in CofC, are simply to accompany heartfelt worship, whereas instruments are part of worship. But that simply is not true. It is a lie that CofC members have propogated amongst their own members for many years.

People in instrumental churches do not worship with instruments. They worship with their hearts. Instruments simply accompany that worship, in exactly the same way as hymnbooks and sound systems accompany the acapella worship found in CofC congregations.

The misconception being believed firmly by many CofC members is that instrumentalists have replaced heart worship with worship by instruments, which certainly is not true.

This type of arguement by the CofC member is called a straw man arguement, as already noted by Mr.Ross above. Such an arguement attempts to paint a picture of a subject which is not necessarily true, but which can be easily disputed.

In the case with musical instruments, Churches of Christ present instrumental churches in a disparaging and untruthful way. It is really just an issue of pride with them, and gives them a false sense of "we are right and they are wrong".

True Christianity has nothing to do with such devilish scheming. If the members of the CofC are going to bear true fruit for the Lord, and enjoy the Christian life as it should be enjoyed, then they need to spend a lot less time pointing out and focussing on the percieved flaws in other assemblies, and start learning to love people because of the differences, for that is exactly what our Lord has done to us. Loved us, because of the differences.

Bob Ross is a hate mongerer: he clearly lies about churches of Christ, I have reviewed him and he won't DARE meet the issue just as you have no intention of doing. Nevertheless, we will show who is the Truth Hater.
This is going to be long and I will also post the discussion here;

http://www.piney.com/Tecumseh.Church.of.Christ.html

________Church of Christ in Michigan
J 152.163.100.68

Had to share May 6 2005, 11:29 PM
I have studied and looked for such a change and have not been able to find it. Some have claimed that their use went out with the first covenant, but such is not the case, as their use was not directly connected to the first covenant.

You are correct, the history of instrumental music in the Bible is opposed to it. Moses wrote his Second Law for a lawless people going in to be virtually abandoned to Canaanite Baalism. Beginning in Genesis Moses points directly to the Babylonian practices which were never abandoned by many of those who came out with Abraham. Furthermore, the Hebrews were not required to offer sacrifices in Egypt but they became worse than the Gentiles. We are told that God removed them only to protect His Good Name. We know for a fact what the worship practices were in Egypt and we therefore know that the musical idolatry in the wilderness was, as they prayed for, a return to the worship of the Egyptian Triad, Isis, Osiris and Hathor the baby child. All trinities were made up of father, mother and child. Here is some background to the Egyptian worship:

http://www.piney.com/MuEgypt.html

And part two:

http://www.piney.com/MuEgypt2.html

J: We have just shown that musical instruments were used before the first covenant was established. Also, we have shown that the use of musical instruments was a reality in the practical day-to-day lives of the Old Testament people and was not always associated with a divine requirement or commandment of God.

And we have shown that in ALL of the musical events it was a sign or cause of Judgment. Remember Jephtha's Daughter. She was maybe offered as a human sacrifice because she was caught in the midst of the musical women welcoming the returning army which had been celibate until their return.

Of course, girls and women played instruments in all innocence. However, the evidence is that NORMAL men didn't see it as acceptable. For instance, while flute-girle was the same as prostitute and an accepted occupation, a male who both sang and played an instrument was either drunk or perverted. David's life is open to question.

It was not God's will that the king and kingdom be established but He granted it because the people rejected His rule over them so that they could serve wood and stone. According to all of recorded history of this time this was an implicit demand to worship with singing, dancing, instruments and its product - sex as a means to produce the fertility which only Yahweh could bring. See the story in 1 Samuel.

http://www.piney.com/First.Samuel.Eight.html

However, in the end, they would be punished as God pronounced His judgment in actions:

"The trained musicians which eventually appear around the time of David and Solomon mark a distinctive change in the history of Jewish music.


Before this time much of the music was made by women." (Zondervan Pict., Music p. 313).

Saul was "turned into another man" which was, in that culture, equivalent to saying that he was perverted. The singing and harp playing was another supernatural sign sent from God because it threw Saul into the frenzied "prophesying" or singing and dancing naked. To worship like the nations, in fact, could never happen unless it added feminine or effeminate performers in song, instrument and dance!

"Before the establishment of the kingdom under Saul, it was the women who, as in every young civilization, played a major part in the performance of music. Such figures as Miriam, Deborah, Jephthah's daughter, and the women hailing the young hero David have become almost archetypes of female musicians.


"Characteristic of all these cases is the familiar picture of a female chorus, dancing and singing, accompanied by frenzied drum-beating.

This is the scene known to the entire Near East, and not

"even the severe rule of Islam could wholly suppress this age-old practice." (Int Dict of the Bible, Music, p. 457).


"Women and girls from the different ranks of society were proud to enter the service of the gods as singers and musicians. The understanding of this service was universal: these singers constituted the 'harem of the gods'." (End of Quasten)

No one is discussing the cultural use of music as no one opposes it today except to say that it is the OPIATE OF THE PEOPLE. The issue is whether you can hold a synagogue or ekklesia or school of the Bible and invite Jesus through His word to come teach and then insult him with a modern form of charismatic music which has no connection to the simple melody or "series of single notes" by which Psalms were ALWAYS chanted.

Some have dismissed musical instruments because the Mosaic Law has been fulfilled in Christ, however, the use of musical instruments was not a part of the Mosaic Law. "Thou shalt play musical instruments when worshipping God" or "Thou shalt not play musical instruments when worshipping God" cannot be found as one of the Mosaic commandments. Therefore, the burden of proof that God changed His mind, and therefore His requirement, and now does not allow musical instruments, rests with the anti-instrument people.

That is a fact: The Book of the Covenant was a covenant of Grace. After the people rose up to PLAY, God turned them over to worship the STARRY HOST and gave them The Book of the Law because of this musical transgression. It is ungodly to change God's Law and ADDED to or SUBTRACT from:

Ye shall observe to do therefore as the Lord your God hath commanded you: ye shall not turn aside to the right hand or to the left. De.5:32

And thou shalt not go aside from any of the words which I command thee this day, to the right hand, or to the left, to go after other gods to serve them. De.28:14

This book of the law shall not depart out of thy mouth; but thou shalt meditate therein day and night, that thou mayest observe to do according to all that is written therein: for then thou shalt make thy way prosperous, and then thou shalt have good success. Judges 1:8

Meditate is:

Hagah (h1897) haw-gaw'; a prim. root [comp. 1901]; to murmur (in pleasure or anger); by impl. to ponder: - imagine, meditate, mourn, mutter, roar, * sore, speak, study, talk, utter.

My soul shall be satisfied as with marrow and fatness; and my mouth shall praise thee with joyful lips: Psa 63:5

When I remember thee upon my bed, and meditate on thee in the night watches. Psa 63:6

However, if ALL of the example are of an ungodly people then to DEMAND that God say "thou shalt not jump off tall buildings" would be rank legalism.

Musical idolatry was going aside to serve other gods. Once this happened at Mount Sinai God ABANDONED them to worship these starry hosts including Saturn whose Chaldee number is 666.

One of the big lies is that churches of Christ invented the notion that God has a right to communicate by Commands, Examples and Inferences: a RIGHT we give to ourselves. The fact is, however, that the Phds know nothing they have not read from other Phds. This is a BIBLICAL way of determining the will of God and it has been recognized by all religious people down through the ages before the latter day Stoneites who hallucinated that there was ever a thing called THE HIGH CHURCH which had Rubel Shelly-like power to hear the voice of God. This principle of latter day revelation was never accepted by any church. The Catholic Encyclopedia is a good source about the role of instruments. They were NEVER used to accompany congregational singing. Rather, the organ was played for processionals, interludes and much like a pitchpipe who CHANTED the Psalms without an organ accompaniment.

Here is the stark truth:

http://www.piney.com/ComExamInfer.html

God defined the Synagogue and DID NOT INCLUDE any form of MUSIC or SOUND. After the musical idolatry at Mount Sinai, the priesthood was organized to keep the people AWAY from the tabernacle. If God did not INCLUDE music then He EXCLUDED IT. Remember Nadab and Abihu the preachers love to RIDICULE non-instrumental churches about. Well, they ADDED something not directly commanded by God and were toasted real good. That is why our WORSHIP does not come to the sound of the TRUMPET ALARM but:

Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear: Heb 12:28


For our God is a consuming fire. Heb 12:29

See some Nadab and Abihu.

http://www.piney.com/Nadab-Abihu.html

If you grasped that Jesus died to remove the burden meaning "spiritual anxiety created by religious ritual" and planned ot give you REST so that you might "come learn of me" no one in their right mind would conclude that Jesus REALLY meant to bring the musical teams which work ONLY because they create mental anxiety. Nor, would Bible 101aaa, card class, slow group even hallucinate that Jesus wants a boy-girlie show during HIS teaching sessions.

We have shown you some examples and any one with common sense will see that ALL of the musical terms and names of instruments in a RELIGIOUS sense point directly to Satan, prostitutes and Sodomites. Why would God so compromise INSTRUMENTS by also associating them with telling God: "Shut your face." The congregation is the Qahal or synagogue or "church in the wilderness."

You can't just keep looking up verses in the lexicon and get anywhere. They ALL have a context and NEVER is musical part of the people's worship.

You should not call in Bob Ross to back you up. He is radically ignorant about the Old Testament and the MUSIC connection.

I have partially reviewed some of his hate junk and I dare him--if he has one hair on his chest--to respond. I have emailed him and no response. So, he is like a hit and run child. You tell him that I am reviewing his totally uninformed tirade here.

http://www.piney.com/Bob.Ross.Cowbells.html

If you presume to be a TEACHER of the law and are ignorant of the law a terrible judgment awaits you.

Ken

In regards to your statement:


The Troublers in Zion NEVER list their names: this, too, is part of the lying, cheating in order to steal the church houses of weeping widows.

From: Anonymous, probably the preacher:


Just where is the name of the original person who started this mess at the Tecumseh Church of Christ??? I don't see his name anywhere!!!!! Please do not speculate on who is speaking when you do not even know, You wouldn't want to gossip would you!!!


Rhonda

=====================================
MESSAGE FROM THE MODERATOR

Rhonda;

We must watch our attitude!

If you will carefully note; The originator of this thread left out the name of your church on purpose.

It was one of your own little dark creatures that used the church name, for the first time, in his post under anonymous.(anonymous 68.88.131.42)

As far as who is responsible for creating a mess at your church, take a long look in the mirror.

Why is it we seem to hurt and keep hurting the people we love most? This all started over, what some keep saying, 'I's not about the music'. We teach our children 'What Would Jesus Do'? Do you really think this is how He would act? Quit wasting your time being so bitter and hateful. Just 'Love your neighbor as yourself' and keep trying to reach up instead of lashing out.

Thank you Ken, God bless you and all who are standing up for his Son's Church.

Anyone who is still clinging to the hope that the lonely word PSALMS justifies the use of musical instruments, please re-read "PSALMS - Understandest what thou readest." carefully. It is posted under "Parkhill CofC" on May 5, 2005.

And keep this scripture in mind while you read it.


Lu:4:4: And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.

And please, please, do not harden your heart. Sincerely seek to please God only.

Remember, Moses did not get to enter the promised land because he did not follow God's instruction correctly to speak to the rock; Num 20:8-12.

Do not gamble when it comes to your soul.

Eternity lasts a long,long time.

In Jesus' name.

"Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, and mind...and love your neighbor as yourself"...Grace is real, we are all living under grace, and grace covers us if we are misguided in our idea of how to please God with our worship...I no longer attend ---------COC in Tecumseh, but I love everyone there...I was there for the first split over legalistic and oppressive ideas regarding how to worship God...the instigators departed and the remaining church grew in truth by leaps and bounds...now, it seems as though the enemy is back in the building! I'm several hundred miles removed from your situation now, and am praying for you and the church...from the outside looking in, I believe you all need to focus on the things you agree on, that God is God...He is sovreign...He sent Jesus to the cross to redeem us...Jesus collected the wages of our sin IN FULL...and our part is to love God and each other, and try to take as many people to heaven with us as we can! The rest is all details!

Blessings to all.

Re:
"Following God, not tradition"

First of all sir, your clever log in name is not even Biblical appropriate. You should be following Jesus and the tradition set by the early Christians;

2Th:2:15: Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
2Th:3:6: Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.


Now,

Re:
You can site book chapter and verse all you want but it is obvious that you are not teaching with the love that Jesus gives you and the rest of us everyday. Keeping beating people over the head with your bible and when they get a head ache they will seek out churches who have Advil.

I advise you to take out the Advil because here comes some more beating.

My next post was written with you and a few others in mind. It is titled “Let us see the true love of Jesus!” I will be sending it shortly.

In Jesus name.

Your Holy Scripture has become the object of your faith, your God. This was not how it was in the pre-modern times. You act as tho the scripture is the starting point of your faith and tradition, it is actually the product of your faith. It's authority was gained only after the tradition started, Christianity existed long before they had the Holy Scriptures. Not to mention that the original text is no longer and that each time the bible was copied its content was changed as well as added to. Therefore how can anyone say for certain they know Gods will.
How can anyone claim that they possess a knowledge of absolute truth. Are you a divinely ordained guardian of the truth? Obviously this conviction gives you a feeling of confidence and inner power over anyone who differs in their believes. "Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him." (Acts 10:34-35) "My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons. For if there come unto your assembly a man with a gold ring, in goodly apparel, and there come in also a poor man in vile raiment; And ye have respect to him that weareth the gay clothing, and say unto him, Sit thou here in a good place; and say to the poor, Stand thou there, or sit here under my footstool: Are ye not then partial in yourselves, and are become evil thinking judges?" (James 2:1-4)
How can you say that you are absolutely sure you know the mind and will of God. It is obvious you see tolerance as a form of moral weekness however intolerance leads to fanaticism. (The fanatic was a person who believed himself to be wholly inspired by divine power. Fanatics are impervious to reasoning and will stop at nothing to achieve their ends, passionately believing them to be not their own ends but God’s.)
Tolerance does not mean agreement or even acceptance. I can be tolerant with out giving up on my own believes. I can still be respectful and even try to teach without being intolerant .
What is the difference in your doctrine on certain issues and those of superstitions. God is much bigger then that. You are not consistant in your biblical literalist believes, you only do so when it suits your agenda. You are literal when it comes to certain issues like the second coming of Christ, the resurrection and the existence of eternal punishment. But when Jesus said it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of God, why do you not sell all that you have and give to the poor as Jesus told the rich young ruler who wanted to follow him?

It is obvious that you concentrate on passages in the bible that are of interest to you,and ignore that which you do not want to see. When a person selects just what one wishes and ignores the rest, you cease to be Bible believing Christian. It becomes a tool of power claiming divine authority to support your own prejudices.

The best anyone can do is to seek the truth, study and be in prayer with God. The day I know the truth, I will not be able to share it with my earthly people. Anyone who claims they know the only truth will never be opened to really learning the truth. It is amazing to me how there are those that claim they know the truth about Gods will yet are so ignorant to truths and reality before their very eyes.
Open your hearts, your ears and your eyes. God is so much more then anyone of us can ever even imagine. He is bigger then these petty arguments. Take your eyes off of the legalism brought about by man and turn your eyes to God. And if you think that their is nothing in the Bible that is not of God and that is all God is, wow what a shame.

We need to remember that feelings are not reality and that some times the things we fear the most we create.

Kimberly

Kim, you do a double whammy at lifting yourself. Your first proof text has to do with the miracle to give Peter credibility to baptize Cornelius a gentile.

Joel prophesied that there would be SUPERNATUAL signs.
After these SIGNS of trouble then Joel promised:

That all who CALL on the Name of the Lord would be saved

At Pentecost, the signs were FULFILLED.
Peter says "This is what Joel Prophesied.

Then Peter preached the gospel
Those who heard the gospel message BELIEVED and were sorry.
They CALLED to Peter "What MUST we do to be Saved?
Peter told them to REPENT and be BAPTIZED in the NAME of Jesus Christ
And then they would receive A holy spirit or A clear conscience.
THE SIGNS DID NOT SAVE THEM: the Signs would be manifested to four groups of people: Jews, Gentiles, Samaritans and those FAR away. In another sense, the gospel would spread from Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria and to the uttermost parts of the world.

CORNELIUS

God sent a message to send for Peter who would tell Cornelius what he MUST DO.
God used the same SIGN that He used at Pentecost.

After the miracle which proved for the doubting Jews, Peter dared anyone forbid baptism.
Then Peter COMMANDED them to be baptized.
Peter would tell him what he MUST DO.
Peter COMMANDED that they MUST be baptized.

PAUL

The Spirit named Jesus of Nazareth got Paul's attention with a supernatural sign: he Poured out something on Paul which made him a believer.

Jesus sent a MAN to tell Paul what he MUST DO.
Paul was told to "arise, be baptized to wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord."

Only then Did Jesus guide him into all truth as He did the original apostles.

God has given the supernatural signs, proved that people must be baptized to be saved and there is exception.

Christ the Spirit promised to guide them into all truth. Paul and Peter thought that they were inspired. They wrote their eye-witness accounts FOR OUR MEMORY and warned NOT to let anyone add or subtract because they would be FALSE TEACHERS.

We have he Bible in its essential shape and there are many proofs of that.

You are not inspired, so if you are going to be a CHRISTIAN you have to be a baptized disciple. Then the ONLY resource you have is the Bible. That Bible is the textbook of a SCHOOL run by God in Christ. It is not a grab bag for inventing pagan worship rituals. If you DON'T want to follow th Bible then no one forces you. However, a Christian is guided into all truth through the Word. If you don't believe that then you are not a believer.

That is the meaning of being a CHRISTIAN or being a DISCIPLE: the purpose is to study the Word for what it SAYS within its context and the broader context. Only then can you say whether you believe it or not. However, quoting texts out of context CHEATS YOU but that is what normal preaching is all about.

Ken

I must admit by your standards I am not a Christian. I think you are putting God into a box and that there is soooo much you are missing. This web page has taken me on so many journeys and searches and opened my eyes to so much. There is noway for us every to fully understand or comprehend the magnitude of God. I believe He is so much more then what is in the Bible. That words cannot be used to fully explain or express. i have stepped out of my comfort box of ignorance and have learned so much yet have so many more questions. Sometimes I think out of our own ignorance of knowledge or understanding it is easy to get defensive. Learning about other faiths and believes is a good thing. Questioning and searching for answers is a good thing. But in doing so you also have to takea look at yourself, your modivation and your intent That is not always an easy or pleasant thing to do. It is all about intent. A good idea with a bad intent is bad. A bad idea with a good intent is better.
My intent is to be the best i can be, to bring joy to the lives of others and live my life to the best of my ability to please God. I am one with God, always have and always will be. I will stumble and make mistakes, but God knows my intent.

The intent of this web page is being presented to save soul, I believe the intent is to confuse and divide believers. I am so sorry that but I cannot change the mission. I can only add my comments which more often then not do make it to discussions. But that is ok.

If you think about it we as mortal beings are trying to understand the infinate wisdome and being of God. How can anyone say it is as simple as one book? It may make it easier for some to grasp, but God is not just, the words of the bible.

There is alot of great stuff that has been handed down thru the translations and copies of the bible by other humans, their intent was obviously to depict to others as close as a rendition of the origianl text. If you look at other writings used by other religions, there is a similar message that was passed down thru the generations. As believers we are all searching and seeking for the same thing. We each will take a different path, but who are any of us to say that the path taken is not the path needed to take to become the person God intends for us to become.
For the last few years as a parent of teens, I tried my best to influence and teach and guide, but I finally saw that I infact was trying to manipulate situations and responces and actions. Once I finally realized that in doing so I was not fully trusting that God was in control but was actually interfering with His work. I stepped back met my son where he was, no judgement no manipulating, just loved him, God was able to do his work the way He saw fit and the miracle that has taken place in the last few weeks is awesome.
I share this with you because I see this type of interfering and manipulation being done on this web page, and it is apparent that you do not believe fully that if this is not the direction God wants His people to go He cannot fix it without your help. He can and He will if we as humans will stop manipulating judging and pushing things to happen in our time but let them happen in Gods time.
I encourage any of you reading this, step out of the box of doctrine and rules of man. Search and read and get to know God on a personal level. Look out your window and see the magnitude of God, be open to how others serve and worship and love God. You might learn something about yourself and your purpose on earth, you might even find more joy, true and sincere joy from above. Keeping the wonders of God in a box is a shame.

Our job is not to save souls: that is too big for this writer. My personal goal and I think the goal of many others is to discuss what the BIBLE SAYS. That leaves you to find your revelation any way you please.

If we ran a school of Homer we would teach HOMER and not PLATO. You cannot explain Homer by comparing him with what Plato wrote. If we ran a school of Auto Repair we would not try to teach Auto Repair by teaching Boating. Those who want to teach Boating are perfectly free to conduct their own school. However, it would be dishonest for Boating experts to steal a school of Auto Repair and tell them how to fix my Jeep by telling them how to navitate to Japan. Get the point?

Most of us don't waste a microsecond each day worrying about what others believe and teach UNLESS they "infiltrate" our churches and try to "divert" them into being, say, Catholic churches. Just read my stuff for what I believe the Bible teaches and don't get shifted off to interpret that to mean that I go out of my driveway to try to influence anyone to do anything and assuredly do not take up collections. If you don't believe it we won't track you down.

If someone is lying, cheating and stealing your church home and the peace and happiness of your home then you may want to call on this forum for some help. We will try to teach what the Bible says and will never send you a "pledge card." Ok? Ken

Let us see the true love of Jesus!

Jesus loved Peter enough to correct him sternly when Peter was in error, even though he was only to trying to do a good deed. But Jesus called Peter Satan!

Was this a show of LOVE?

We must understand that sometimes what appears to be a good idea to us may not be within the will of God. This is why it is so important to study God's inspired Word so that we will know exactly what he wants us to do. (And I am not referring those corrupted modern version bibles that are confusing people by the millions. Those are not God's inspired Word.):

M'r:8:31: And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and of the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.
M'r:8:32: And he spake that saying openly. And Peter took him, and began to rebuke him.
M'r:8:33: But when he had turned about and looked on his disciples, he rebuked Peter, saying, Get thee behind me, Satan: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but the things that be of men.

Satan will sometimes fool us by making something that is so contrary to the will of God seem to be such a great idea. So great that we will fight against those who are trying to correct us because we have become so spiritually blind. Then when that person has to resort to using a stern rebuke, we struggle to see Jesus in all of it. When we are spiritually blind it is very hard to see Jesus because we are walking in spiritual darkness.

Remember Jesus is LOVE!

So when you ask, "Where is the love?", please be able to know and understand what love is.

Now let us look at another example of the LOVE of Jesus;

M'r:11:15: And they come to Jerusalem: and Jesus went into the temple, and began to cast out them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves;
M'r:11:16: And would not suffer that any man should carry any vessel through the temple.
M'r:11:17: And he taught, saying unto them, Is it not written, My house shall be called of all nations the house of prayer? but ye have made it a den of thieves.
M'r:11:18: And the scribes and chief priests heard it, and sought how they might destroy him: for they feared him, because all the people was astonished at his doctrine.

We see here in this situation that Jesus has walked in on those who were supposed to be taking care of the Temple. What did Jesus do? Did he go in and fall down on his knees and beg them to stop disobeying God's Word? What did he do?

He cast them out of the place and overthrew their tables!

Is this an example of loving one another?

What would Jesus do if he was to physically walk into your church service today? How would he reply to some of the post on this site if he was to log in and read some of things I have read?

If you are going to speak for Jesus you need to learn of him first. You need to learn his ways.

M't:11:29: Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

It is not a sin to be angry and sternly rebuke someone, especially when their words are being read by so many.

The Bible says:

Eph:4:26: Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:

It also says:

1Tm:5:19: Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses.
1Tm:5:20: Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.
1Tm:5:21: I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality.
2Tm:4:2: Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
Ti:1:10: For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision:
Ti:1:11: Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake.
Ti:1:12: One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies.
Ti:1:13: This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;
Ti:2:15: These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.

As I read some of the stuff being posted on this site, I feel like Jesus must have felt when he went into the temple and begin to overthrow the tables. There are a lot of tables that need to be overthrown on this site.

Yes, Jesus is Love, but the love of Jesus goes deeper than some of us understand at this point.

You see the love of Jesus in this instance can be compared to the love of a mother or father who must not spare the rod in order not to spoil the child.


Proverb:13:24: He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes.
Proverb:23:13: Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die.
Proverb:23:14: Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.


If we do not try to correct someone who is heading down a path of destruction, even if we know that this person will hate us for correcting them, can we truly say that we love them.

If you really love someone, than you will try to stop them from destroying themselves, even if they will hate you for doing it.

Just because we live under the Grace of God that does not mean that we can do whatever the heck we want to do in his Church!

That idea is just plain stupid!

There are some of us that actually think that the details of worshiping God" are not important. If you are of this belief than I would advise you to search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life.

If you want to do whatever you want in Christ's church then you just go right ahead. But I want you to know that you will have to answer for what you do in the End.

Joh:5:38: And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.
Joh:5:39: Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

I love the Church of Christ; I am not trying to be hateful, but sometimes the truth will hurt.

Sometimes it takes more than kind words.

Jesus said:
Lu:6:46: And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?.
M't:7:21: Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
M't:7:22: Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
M't:7:23: And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Joh:14:15: If ye love me, keep my commandments.
Joh:14:23: Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

This is the true Love of Jesus. He does not always spare the rod!

I will follow King Jesus.

Will you?

In Jesus name.

It doesn't sound like you are a member of the Church of Christ. The "title" may still be that, but the message is a far cry from Church of Christ teachings. Bottom line, if you are having these uneasy feelings about being there, you shouldn't be. It amazes me to hear you have musical instruments in your church, you call the minister "pastor"?????? I wouldn't walk, but run out of there.

Taken from a recent post above by:

Dewayne 70.250.151.37
Re: Comfort Zones? February 19 2006, 9:14 PM

ken you say :"God through Paul told them to "teach that which has been taught" and to refute those who teach error."

do you teach Psalm 150??

++++++++++++++++++++++++++

A RESPONSE TO DEWAYNE:

What about Psalm 150? Which of the following instruments do you use and/or love:

• the sound of the trumpet
  
• the psaltery and
  
• harp
  
• the timbrel and
  
• dance
  
• stringed instruments and
  
• organs
  
• the loud cymbals
  
• [upon] the high sounding cymbals … [PLUS]
  
• Let every thing that hath breath [including _______] praise the LORD
  
  

Now, questions to Dewayne in return: Which of the following do you teach—if not, why not?

Num. 10:[10] Also in the day of your gladness, and in your solemn days, and in the beginnings of your months, ye shall blow with the trumpets over your burnt offerings, and over the sacrifices of your peace offerings; that they may be to you for a memorial before your God: I am the LORD your God.

Deut. 12:[6] And thither ye shall bring your burnt offerings, and your sacrifices, and your tithes, and heave offerings of your hand, and your vows, and your freewill offerings, and the firstlings of your herds and of your flocks: [11] Then there shall be a place which the LORD your God shall choose to cause his name to dwell there; thither shall ye bring all that I command you; your burnt offerings, and your sacrifices, your tithes, and the heave offering of your hand, and all your choice vows which ye vow unto the LORD: [13] Take heed to thyself that thou offer not thy burnt offerings in every place that thou seest: [14] But in the place which the LORD shall choose in one of thy tribes, there thou shalt offer thy burnt offerings, and there thou shalt do all that I command thee. [27] And thou shalt offer thy burnt offerings, the flesh and the blood, upon the altar of the LORD thy God: and the blood of thy sacrifices shall be poured out upon the altar of the LORD thy God, and thou shalt eat the flesh.

Donnie

Donnie, they haven't grasped the fact that POEMS TEND TO BE POETIC and the Psalmists restricted the instruments in a literal sense to those THAT HAVE BREATH. If that is NOT the case then Psalms 150 is the DIRECT AUTHORITY to turn "worship" into a MAKE SELF VILE SERVICE which is the meaning of the word HALAL or PRAISE which is the root to the word LUCIFER and connects to "playing the flute, polluting and prostituting." That is something David loved to do to the ENEMY so he could put his boot on the enemy's head. But, David conducted WARFARE which is the MARK OF THE BEAST for anyone so unlearned as to use Psalm 150 for PROOF TEXT to conduct SCHOOL OF THE BIBLE.

They are calling people into war: Armageddon where the little pimple hills on the plains aspire to be BIG MOUNTAINS. The Beast in Revelation is visioned as PAN and His HORNS are his pan pipes of the perverted would-be-kings as their POWER POINT to take their little part of the kingdom for Satan. God will beat them INTO hell and if you understand Isaiah 30, He will use THEIR OWN INSTRUMENTS as the MARK of their procession to the place of burning.

Am.3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the Lord hath not done it?

Furthermore, ALL of the instrumental Psalms were WARRIOR'S CHANTS or PARADE songs. For instance, Edersheim makes it clear that the pipe [organ]was played only in the procession to Jerusalem from the far cities.

http://www.piney.com/Edersheim19.html#And

Isaiah 30 compares the Assyrians procession to the "place of burning" with the Timbrels and harps. In the LXX or Septuagint version, God asks, "Must you always go in procession to the temple with music." This was a common practice when they marched to the Temple and then to Topheth which was the place where innocent children were burned in the red-hot arms of Molech as they played loud instruments to drown out the evil sounds of sacrificed children and to help the priest get a message from the idol. Assyria includes Jerusalem, Egypt, Sodom or (Jerusalem which is Egypt and Sodom in the book of Revelation). All will find themselves being marched off to some kind of hell to the beat of musical instruments.

And in every place where the grounded staff shall pass, which the Lord shall lay upon him, it shall be with tabrets and harps: and in battles of shaking will he fight with it. Isa 30:32

"Its (pipe = to love passionately) was apparently a secular instrument and is never listed in the temple orchestra;

only in Ps. 150:4 it is mentioned in a religious (but not ritual) function. Its ethos (ethical character) was not blameless at all, ase we see from Genesis Rabbah 50: 'The angels said to Lot: 'There are players of the pipe (organ) in the country, hence it ought to be destroyed.'" Its rabbinical identification with the aboda, the flute of the notorious Syrian bayaderes (temple dancers), emphasizes the erotic element which already the Hebrew name suggests." (Interpreters Dictionary of the Bible, p. 460, Abingdon).

The pipe was invented and promoted by Jubal and not God. The view of scholars who knew the original languages claim that SATAN came into Jubal (Genun) just as Satan came into Judas whose "Judas bag" contained the "mouthpieces of wind instruments."

And his brothers name was Jubal: he was the father of all such as handle the harp and organ. Genesis 4:21

Handle means to manipulate, capture to use without authority (h8610).

Taphas (h8610) taw-fas'; a prim. root; to manipulate, i. e. seize; chiefly to capture, wield; spec. to overlay; fig. to USE UNWARRANTABLY : - catch, handle, (lay, take) hold (on, over), stop, * surely, surprise, take.

Handling musical instruments by the JUBAL clan was WITHOUT AUTHORITY. They used instruments for the ONLY reason end-time Babylon Whore churches used them: to collect the ANIMALS into pens to be sold and to steal their money for what God created and give us free of charge. The word connects directly to the tambourne and to HELL itself which had once been the King's MUSIC GROVE where they burned infants in the arms of Molech--the God of Augustine:

Taphaph (h8608) taw-faf'; a prim. root; to drum, i. e. play (as) on the tambourine: - taber, play with timbrels.

Topheth (h8611) to'-feth; from the base of 8608; a smiting, i. e. (fig.) contempt: - tabret.

Topheth (h8612) to'-feth; the same as 8611; Topheth, a place near Jerus.: - Tophet, Topheth.

Is.14:11 Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms [maggots] cover thee.

The ORGAN and all of its FLUTE names means to "play the flute, steal people's inheritance, pollute and prostitute.

Uwgab (h5748) oo-gawb'; or uggab oog-gawb'; from 5689 in the orig. sense of breathing; a reed-instrument of music: - organ

Jeremiah 4 repeats the VOID AND EMPTY pattern of the creation, the flood and the Red Sea. It also fits the pattern of Lucifer personified as the king of Babylon, Tyre and the end time church.

And Aholah played the harlot when she was mine; and she doted on her lovers, on the Assyrians her neighbours, Eze.23:5

And when thou art spoiled, what wilt thou do? Though thou clothest thyself with crimson, though thou deckest thee with ornaments of gold, though thou rentest thy face with painting, in vain shalt thou make thyself fair; thy lovers will despise thee, they will seek thy life. Jer 4:30

Praise him with the timbrel and dance: praise him with stringed instruments and organs. Ps.150:4

The ORGAN is associated with the fertility cults by Job:

Wherefore do the wicked live, become old, yea, are mighty in power? Job 21:7
Their seed is established in their sight with them, and their offspring before their eyes. Job 21:8
Their houses are safe from fear, neither is the rod of God upon them. Job 21:9
Their bull gendereth, and faileth not; their cow calveth, and casteth not her calf. Job 21:10
They send forth their little ones like a flock, and their children dance. Job 21:11
They take the timbrel and harp, and rejoice at the sound of the ORGAN. Job 21:12
They spend their days in wealth, and in a moment go down to the grave. Job 21:13

Therefore they say unto God, Depart from us; for we desire not the knowledge of thy ways. Job 21:14

What is the Almighty, that we should serve him? and what profit should we have, if we pray unto him? Job 21:15

Job used the pipe to describe the children who sang, played and danced showing that they didn't want to hear from God (Job 21). Job also used the organ in a figurative sense of his mouring and weeping.

God is beating the musicators into hell to the beat of Satan's devices for taking people's minds and money captive.

http://www.piney.com/piney.com/Isa30LXX.html

We cannot worry about the "innocent" BLIND: anyone who can be seduced by THE DEVIL'S INSTRUMENTS is simply not suited to live in a SPIRIT or MENTAL world and they are being separated by the LOCUSTS or musical performers.

I find all these arguments among those who claim to have some intellectual copyright over all others. They speak only of one side of the story and continue to ignore the whole other side. You can read the Bible over and over again and make conclusion after conclusion based on your own short sightedness, but without a simple understanding of history and culture, it is impossible to argue any theological fact. The Church of Christ, which i (sometimes regretfully) belong to has no right to claim that it is the reflection of the first century church in modern times. We do not follow the same basic traditions, rituals, or practices. First off, those on this website claim that the KJV is the ONLY text that one should study. The KJV is a very good bible, which has helped many to come to faith but unfortunatly it is not perfect. The KJV did a few things that make it better than any previous translations. Jeromes Vulgate which existed before the KJV used the Septuigent instead of the traditional Hebrew Old Testament. It also gave the english speaking world its first mass produced bible. The intresting thing is that if Any of us were to pick up an original KJV we would not be able to read it. The KJV has been revised over and over and over again, because the English language has changed, That puts the revision argument in its place. The NIV has done exactly what todays KJV has done. It is simply a revision of something that has already exisited to make the bible more readable. I would accept the argument that we should only read the NT in its Orginal Greek and the only OT in its Original Hebrew, but of course that would cut the bible reading population down to very few. Yet those are the only orginal versions we have and those also are not the originals. We have NO Original documents, The original Manuscripts do not exists, all we have are copies of copies of copies of copies that were passed on. Our first full NT was not even put together until the 5th century, and our earliest full manuscripts come from the 10th century. So there is no Original bible.
It is also interesting how many argue points from the NT simply because the text says to examine the scriptures. The Scriptures that Paul speaks of in the NT is actually the OT since the NT was not put together for 300 more years. Its also interesting that almost all of the Gospels were written either during Pauls life or After. Pauls teachings are VERY reliant on the words of the OT. He was a Jew and accepted it, Romans is a direct letter to the Roman Jews about the acceptance of the Gentiles, Yet he tells the Gentiles that they are simply a root that has extended from the original, which is the Jewish community. The First century church was full of Jewish traditions, which included following the Feast days, and baptizing believers into the church, Which was a common Jewish tradition (John the Baptist was a Jew Baptizing, because there was no christianity yet) Also, the The Lords Meal(Eucharist, Communion etc.) Was only for those who were accepted into the church, Just like the Church of Christ right? Well sort of, One had to first go through a year or more of Catechism or teaching before he was deemed worthy enough of being accepted to partake in the most holy of traditions among the church because one had to first prove themself, Then they were baptized and allowed to partake. Also our leadership has been named in response to the political movement away from the Catholic church. The greek word which we think has been translated to mean Elder is actually the Greek word for Bishop, Which was a singular term to act as the head of the Church. Any argument that anyone has made on this page has been simply argued against by anyone with a simple understanding of Church history. It is very interesting that if you ask ANY church of chris biblical Scholar, they will very simply dispute any claim that these people have made, Yet these people are the Intellectual Elite??? interesting....Please dispute any claim on here, Im ok with that but instead do it with me privately and send it to my e-mail zcockerh@rc.edu

The points mades in an earlier message by "Does it Matter" are something of a mixed bag. It seems unwise to imply those with whom there is disagreement are (always?) guilty of being "short-sighted," (always?) ignoring the "whole other side," and that a "simple understanding of history and culture" would (apparently?) alleviate all disagreements.

The initial points about the KJV, on the whole, are accurate. And, yes, this would seem to be an uncomfortable truth for many who post on this site.

The point "We do not follow the same basic traditions, rituals, or practices" may or may not be an accurate reflection of the current state of the churches of Christ. The difficulty is discerning exactly which "traditions, rituals, or practices" the author is addressing.

Yes, when Paul speaks of the scriptures the scriptures before many/most of his initial readers would be studying would be the O.T. Are you arguing the author meant to imply the works of the N.T. are uninspired or are not to be considered scripture-- so what, exactly, is the point? Paul went to the Synagogues, opened the scriptures, and preached Jesus (not the Jewish law).

If it is that the Gentile Christians kept the Feast Days, "Baptized" simply because it was a Jewish tradition, and that the Lord's Supper/Meal (Eucharist, Communion, etc.) was simply a matter of following Jewish traditions, rituals, or practices he may have some difficult "proving" this point to the satisfaction of all based on scripture or tradition.

Paul appears to argue rather vociferously in Galatians, a book many feel was one of his first, that Gentiles do NOT have to follow Jewish traditions, rituals, or practices.

Later, in Colossians 2:16, he again argues that no one is to pass judgment upon another based on observance of "feast days" (specifically mentioned by "Does it Matter").

Also, similarities between Jewish ceremonial washings, the practices of the Essenes, and John's baptism (whose mission was in preparation of the Messiah) does not mean "baptism" was practiced because it was "Jewish" any more than the New Testament being written in Koine Greek proves baptism was practiced because of any Greek antecedents.

The arguments concerning the Lord's Meal are based on Church traditions that arose after the first century and are nowhere validated in the text of the Bible.

While much of what is found on this site reflects poor scholarship and rather convenient juxtaposing of unrelated historical bits of trivia, the claim concerning "Scholars" disputing "any" (all?) claims on this site is a bit much. Yes, much is disputable. But, unfortunately, even your reply contains some bits of historical inaccuracy that are too conveniently constructed to make your point.

Funny that this post is still going a year later.

Ken, you'd be pleased to know that ___________ Church of Christ in Michigan is entirely back to preaching the "Whole Cousel of God." They've rid themselves of not only the "pastor" but all the instruments, installed some elders, and re-introduced Sunday night and Wednesday night services.

The old "pastor" and all his lemmings are now down the street pretending to worship God with their sexual instruments. Would you believe that they've doubled in size since they left? Oh how the ignorant masses have not a clue...

Re: Do it really matter?,

Sir, what are you really trying to say or prove?

Are you a bible scholar at one of those so-called Christian Universities?

If you are then I would suggest that you leave that unGodly place because they are just getting you more confused with their worldly agenda and education.

When God’s Word and his true Church are mixed with the endless pursuit of MONEY and worldly PROFITS, you will always find confusion, deception, ongoing evil practices, and worldly (or Community) beliefs which will lead a Christian organization further away from God as was (and still is) the case with the Catholic church.

The love of money is the ROOT of all evil. The love of money is also the ROOT and bottom line for most of these so-called Christian university leaders.

Whenever and whereever the love of money begins to supersede the love and respect of the Word of God it spurs an unquenchable appetite for growth in the name of God.

More people = More money

More money made by yeilding to the wants of the community or world = EVIL!

ALL God-fearing Christians should beware!


Psalms:12:1: Help, LORD; for the godly man ceaseth for the faithful fail from among the children of men.
Psalms:12:2: They speak vanity every one with his neighbour: with flattering lips and with a double heart do they speak.
Psalms:12:3: The LORD shall cut off all flattering lips, and the tongue that speaketh proud things:
Psalms:12:4: Who have said, With our tongue will we prevail; our lips are our own: who is lord over us?
Psalms:12:5: For the oppression of the poor, for the sighing of the needy, now will I arise, saith the LORD; I will set him in safety from him that puffeth at him.
Psalms:12:6: The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
Psalms:12:7: Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.
Psalms:12:8: The wicked walk on every side, when the vilest men are exalted.


GOD said that His Word would be preserved. GOD also said that his Word is purified.


What exactly are YOU saying?

Let it be known that the NIV is NOT pure.

It can NOT be the Word of God.

Psalms:12:6: The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
Psalms:12:7: Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.


In Jesus's name

In your response to "Does It Matter"'s post above (Ignoring History) you make a few assumptions (or were they jokes?) that would have been easy enough to confirm of deny.

Checking out the ru.edu site you would have discovered no Bible faculty listed in the current catalog whose name even comes close to "Cocker."

You may not like the term "Christian University" but until you investigage the specific school, knowing what is taught in the classes, speaking to those who are actually teaching in the class room, it seems rather a leap to declare it to be an "unGodly place" because of "their worldly agenda and education."

Sir, if you knew much about the financial state of most smaller "Christian Universities" you'd know most (if not all) are only familiar with the term "profit" in a theoretical, classroom sense.

You are correct when you state, "The love of money is the root of all evil," since Paul shared these inspired words with Timothy (1 Timothy 6:10).

Your claim that this is the "ROOT and bottom line for most of these so-called Christian university leaders" is laughable in the level of naiveté it displays concerning the experience of most of these "leaders" (would you extend this to the faculty also?). Most, if not all, of all those who are leading these "so-called Christian Universities" could be taking home substantially more if they were involved in other pursuits. Many have faculty members who "take home" less than students who have only recently graduated. The same is true of other faculty and staff members.

Perhaps you are unhappy with what you perceive to be the direction of these schools--that is a legitimate subject for discourse. To claim they are motivated by their "love of money" simply detracts from such a discussion since it exposes a lack of knowledge and/or research on your part.

Re: Joe

Read the post again. Evidently, you didn't read all of it; and if the shoe fits...wear it!

If you don't like the shoe...then change shoes.

In Jesus's

Dear Seeking...,

If you'll check above I hope you'll find my reply to the post you referenced in your remarks. I did read the post and though not all of my comments will meet with your satisfaction an attempt was made to address some of the issues raised rather than changing the subject.

As for my shoes, I frequently purchase them at a local Thrift Store. If they don't fit I try not to purchase them in the first place. To which "shoes" are you referring when you speak of those you seem to suspect I wear?

God bless.

Joe