What about the deaconesses at Richland Hills?
|March 21 2008, 6:32 PM |
OK, Ill give you the benefit, since you have attended RH__ many times before and I havent.
One question I have for you follows, and your response, hopefully, will bring to light facts that have not been presented as yet.
Isnt is correct that sometime in 2002, RH__ [CC: depending on the latest happenings if Christian Church or Church of Christ is more appropriate], the office of deacon has been altered to special servant so that the new group of special servants would encompass not only former deacons [obviously male according to NT standards] but also newly designated deaconesses [women] under the special servants umbrella?
Since you pointed out that no RH__ women served the Communion during any of your visits, would you tell us what, then, is the role of the deaconesses in that congregation? What qualifications must a deaconess have according to the New Testament?
In your last paragraph, you mentioned that there is only ONE congregation I've ever been to
that I've witnessed women serving communion, and they were doing it in conjunction with and under the leadership of their husbands.
(1) You failed to mention the name and location of that congregationany reason why? (2) What did you mean by in conjunction with and under the leadership of?
Women Serving Communion at RH?
|March 24 2008, 4:00 PM |
Thank you for the benefit of the doubt regarding women serving communion at RH. Drives me UP THE WALL when people comment about things based on what they've "heard" or otherwise have no personal experience with or about.
In keeping with that, I am not a member at RH, even though I visit periodically, hence I cannot make an informed observation about the "special servant" issue, or how and why the eldership there took those actions. I have not heard any of their teaching on the issue, nor was I around for the circumstances at the time.
My "guess" (and it is JUST that...a "guess") is that "special servant" at RH translates into what many congregations would call a "ministry leader" (informally) or "chair" (formally) of some sort of ministry committee, which I've observed in many congregations to be functionally equivalent to a "deacon"... i.e. "Benevolence Committee", "Education Committee", "Outreach Ministry", etc. Again, just a guess, NOT a statement of fact as to the situation at RH.
I will comment, however, that I have great difficulty in viewing a deacon's role (or an elder's or minister's role for that matter) as an "office", as you put it, as if a political position to which one aspires. These are roles of service and leadership, rooted in relationships and concern for the church and the community of the lost. To put the term "office" on these roles does an injustice to the responsibilities of the individuals who fulfill those duties.
Lastly, I did not "fail" to mention the congregation I spoke of that had women participating in the serving of communion. I deliberately did not mention it b/c I do not want that congregation to become "marked" in this forum. I believe this forum does MUCH more harm to the church that it does good (another topic for another day), and I do not want to encumber this congregation, which continues to reach lost souls in an otherwise very secular part of the country.
What I meant by "in conjunction with and under the leadership of their husbands is that MEN lead the prayers for each element of communion (as well as the other aspects of the worship assembly), and that husband and wife teams share the responsibility of passing the plates to their assigned sections. So, whereas in most congregations, two men may be paired up to pass the communion elements to a section of the congregation, this duty is fulfilled by a man and his wife together serving a section of the congregation.
Quite a beautiful means of a husband and wife being able to serve together, in my opinion, especially in the current culture of so many couples (even couples IN THE CHURCH) living emotionally and spiritually distant from each other. And as I mentioned, this the ONE and ONLY congregation in which I've ever observed this.
So What, If Women Do SERVE Communion???
|May 1 2008, 10:00 AM |
The objection to Christian sisters serving communion is man-made "Church of Christ" tradition and only that. When some of you guys make a law saying that "it's wrong", you are "speaking where the Bible HAS NOT spoken", thus you become the "liberal" for taking such liberties with God's Word. Women who serve communion are not speaking and not leading. Is it not called SERVING communion???
|April 29 2008, 9:43 PM |
i am a member here and have been since day #1 .I was raised in the CHURCH OF christ all of my life and i have not witnessed any of the things that you are implying nothing has been added or taken away from the book. There is nothiong wrong with having ushers in the church Show me were in the Bible it is written that you can not have Ushers in the church the women here DO NOT server on the collection that is a lie.If you dis like our way of worship DONT COME BACK....
Astonished at choice of words
|January 1 2009, 1:36 PM |
I just read..with interest, your comments regarding a church you recently visited. The most astonishing thing to me was your final statement..I know this is not right in the Church of Christ. This has been my issue all along. We judge things by "the church of Christ" and NOT by the Bible. See what the Bible says. If someone feels a need to be baptized again, more power to them. I would NEVER want to stand in the way of someone seeing a need to make that decision, especially if they made it at a young age and felt compelled to do it again.
Praise teams. IF a church chooses to have a praise team..that's their business. You may be asking..where's the biblical authority for such? I couldn't agree mre. And where is your's for church buildings?? song books?? church bulletins?? etc...and on and on and on it goes. We oppose what we "want" to oppose..and "stand firm" on things we've always done in the church. It's really quite amusing.
Women (whom the preacher refers to as his "Angels") ushering, and serving on the collection.
2.) Praise Teams ("Praise Leaders")
3.) The preacher was said to have been "re-baptized", once they got their new church building.
I know this is not right in the Church of Christ. Has anyone else observed these things???
Re: Astonished at choice of words
|January 1 2009, 3:32 PM |
Re: Astonished at choice of words
"Choice of words," I agree, can lead someone else to misunderstand or misinterpret or take some explanation out of context. But I believe that the writer of the initial post intended to say, "this is not right by what the church believes the Holy Scripture does or does not teach."
In the case of "rebaptism," we read of such instances in the book of Acts. What was the reason then? Is it for the same reason that one needs to be baptized AGAIN? Overall, this is a very delicate religious matter or issue to deal with. Several factors need to be taken into consideration regarding this "practice." Understanding God's design and purpose for an individual to be "BURIED WITH CHRIST IN BAPTISM unto [toward] the FORGIVENESS OF SINS in His blood" is paramount to feeling compelled or have "the need" to be baptized "for the remission of sins" AGAIN. [BTW, this would make a good topic for discussion, perhaps, in a separate thread.]
In regard to "praise teams," it is not sufficient to simply say, "if a church chooses to have a praise team." If you're not aware of what's been going on in the brotherhood, the use of the "praise team" or a ["Baptist"] CHOIR has wreaked havoc in the church as what the Madison, TN congregation experienced in the early part of this decade. Half of its membership left. Heard of this congregation, haven't you?
It's illogical to make a comparison between "praise teams" [comprised of breathing men and women CO-LEADING] and INANIMATE OBJECTS as the song books, church buildings, church bulletins, etc.
The "praise team" concept is a major issue in churches of Christ. Is there a need for a CHOIR for attendants to listen to or to do the singing for/to the congregation? Is the CHOIR/Praise Team to supplant congregational singing? Is it to impress our denominational friends and neighbors? Why does the "Praise Team" consist of elite singers? Why is the ENTIRE CONGREGATION not considered the praise team?
The elders of each congregation must be very careful in considering the implementation of programs and practices. If the purpose is to be just like "the other nations," then, it is the wrong objective. Why implement something or anything that is controversial, unnecessary and divisive?
Re: Central Pointe Church of Christ, Duncanville Tx.
|January 2 2009, 6:04 PM |
The word PRAISE in the Bible means most often to "make yourself vile" or drive yourself into madness. "Praise" singing is one of the oldest, most superstitious legalisms known to mankind. The DRIVEN PURPOSE was to come to the aid of the gods or THREATEN them that you might take your business elsewhere. Such praise singers were always emotionally or sexually abnormal.
Second Chronicles Chapter 5 is used to say that God commanded instrumental praise and we must not disobey God's direct command. This is based on the belief that the Levitical Warriors under the King and Commanders of the Army constitutes a legalistic patternism for restoring their role in non - instrumental churches of Christ. Because of the musical idolatry at Mount Sinai God turned them over to worship the starry host. The Levites who were identified with the Sabbath and Dionysus in Egypt, were literally given as a SACRIFICIAL OFFERING for all of the rest of the nation. They became in fact scapegoats.
Their task even with Jesus was to "make the lambs silent before the slaughter." Music or mystery was always to impose silence on the victim. It needs no proving that when the TEAM is performing effeminate songs JESUS must be silent. Church is a school of the Bible and decent people do not do childish praise singing when Jesus comes to be our ONLY teacher when the elders "teach that which has been taught."
Gen. 49:5 Simeon and Levi are brethren; instruments [Sword or Musical]
of cruelty are in their habitations.
Gen. 49:6 O my soul, come not thou into their secret;
unto their assembly, mine honour, be not thou united:
for in their anger they slew a man, and in their selfwill they digged down a wall
In fact, the Spiritual were outlawed from the Sacrificial system and attended synagogue to rest, read and rehearse the Word of God: just what Jesus exampled and Paul commanded and the church practiced before singing was IMPOSED in the year 373.
"Dan," he says, "shall be a serpent by the way, an adder in the path, that biteth the horse-heels, so that his rider shall fall backwards (i.e., he will teach candidates black magic) .
Gen 49:17 Dan shall be a serpent by the way,
an adder in the path, that biteth the horse heels,
so that his rider shall fall backward.
When Peter says "save yourselves from this CROOKED race" and John and Jesus called them a "race of vipers" the text clearly point to the symposium where they "got drunk on wine" or were "fluted down with wine" as they performed their skolion songs.
Biteth is: 5391. nashak, naw-shak´; a primitive root; to strike with a sting (as a serpent); figuratively, to oppress with interest on a loan: bite, lend upon usury.
This is the bite of the same "serpent" in the garden of Eden:
5175. nachash, naw-khawsh´; from 5172; a snake (from its hiss):--serpent.
5172. nachash, naw-khash´; a primitive root; properly, to hiss, i.e. whisper a (magic) spell; generally, to prognosticate: certainly, divine, enchanter, (use) x enchantment, learn by experience, x indeed, diligently observe.
Nachuwsh (h5153) naw-khoosh'; appar. pass. part. of 5172 (perh. in the sense of ringing, i. e. bell-metal; or from the red color of the throat of a serpent [5175, as denom.] when hissing); coppery, i. e. (fig.) hard: - of brass.
Nechiylah (h5155) nekh-ee-law'; prob. denom. from 2485; a flute: - [plur.] Nehiloth.
Chaliyl (h2485) khaw-leel'; from 2490; a flute (as perforated):
Dan and the Temple Builder
2Chr. 2:13 And now I have sent a cunning man, endued with understanding,
of Huram my fathers,
2Chr. 2:14 The son of a woman of the daughters of Dan [Naphtali 1Ki 7:14], and his father was a man of Tyre, skilful to work in gold, and in silver, in brass, in iron, in stone, and in timber, in purple, in blue, and in fine linen, and in crimson; also to grave any manner of graving, and to find out every device which shall be put to him, with thy cunning men, and with the cunning men of my lord David thy father.
In fact God promised David a TENT, but Solomon built Him a house, but God is not worshipped in houses built by human hands or by the works of human hands.
Therefore, you have to HALLUCINATE any concept of a CLERGY TEAM performing praise songs FOR the rest claiming to be able to lead them into the presence of God. They CLAIM to be God in Christ and they DO stand in the holy place as typified by the Holy Place in the pagan temple. Any singer or instrument playere who went into the type of the Church of Christ would be executed.
ALL music terms and names of instruments points to "fruits" and "sorcerers" performing for the mother of harlots (Rev 17-18)
I have posted some rough notes where JESUS shows the contrast between the assembly where HE sends people with HIS words in contrast to the DOGS and SORCERERS.
I have also posted a review of Second Chronicles Chapter Five which is the AUTHORITY for false teachers to impose instruments knowing that they are sowing discord and inviting the OWNERS to get over it or get out.
Everyone has the direct command to test the spirits and help people being robbed of their church building, church family and even being told that "you might have to choose between instruments and your family."
Re: Central Pointe Church of Christ, Duncanville Tx.
|September 15 2011, 8:21 PM |
I happen to stumble upon this website by accident, looking for something else. True, its 6 yrs later, but Im compelled to say something. Im a member of Central Pointe. Bro Dulin changed my life, and his son continues to help me grow in God's word each Sunday. Bro Dulin was one of the most genuine people Ive ever met, and he had a heart of gold. On my first visit to the church in 2004, an "angel" greeted me, handed me a bulletin, and helped me find a seat. I felt so welcomed. The praise leaders lead songs that lift my soul, and I smile when I hear my daughter singing them at home. I thank God everyday for allowing me to be part of a church family full of loving people and leaders who devote their lives to serving Him. Im so glad I dont have to worry about man's traditions and judgements and that I have a place to go and learn more and more. It makes me sad that so many wont have the priviledge to know Bro Dulin. However, I want EVERYONE I know to have the priviledge to know Rodney Dulin!!!!!!!
|September 18 2011, 11:36 AM |
We are not discussing character but the fact that some deem it acceptable to deliberately sow discord just to put the focus [worship] on performing people which ABSOLUTELY takes the attention away from Jesus and HIS Word commanded to be spoken 'with one mind and one mouth using that which is written to glorify God" or Scripture (Romans 15 and the other "never" musical passages.)
The Church of Christ in the wilderness was defined by Christ the ROCK and guide to be:
INCLUSIVE of rest, reading and rehearsing the Word.
EXCLUSIVE of "vocal or instrumental rejoicing."
That is because the synagogue or ekklesia was ordained ONLY for reading and discussing information handed down by a higher authority.
That was the example of Jesus, the command of Peter and Paul and the practice of the historic church of Christ.
There is no command, example or inference that God's righteous people who were quarantined from the not commanded Temple ever "sang" as a group with or without instruments. The command to SPEAK in fact excludes imitation (hypocrisy) of any thing including the lyre or harp.
A good test would be if your child, who is being subjected to something that is literally physically and emotionally harmful, can sing (chant) any of the Bible which is commanded for the assembly: the Prophets and Apostles.
There is never a command to sing psalms because you couldn't sing them without rewriting them and that defines the Scribes and Pharisees Christ named as rhetoricians, singers or instrument players.
There is a time and place for everything: Jesus asks even now: "Could you not tarry with me for one hour?"
A Church of Christ from the wilderness onward had ONE ACT OF WORSHIP: To Read and discuss the command to elders to "teach that which has been taught."
A praise team concept is the world's OLDEST profession: the Encomiast or praise singers believleld (and so does yours) that they can AID God or pleasure Him.
There are no performing roles in A Church of Christ: that is the Mark.
If the command is to SILENCE all of the performers before you can "teach that which is written with one voice and one mind" as the only way to glorify CHRIST, they you can have a
"praise team" which thinks that God thinks they are desirable or you can be an Ekklesia or School of Christ teaching the Prophets and Apostles.
The command is to SPEAK that which is written: Logos type words are opposite poetry or music.
This is the THESIS upon which the Church of Christ was restored.
Singing AND psallo IN THE HEART.
With all due respects it seems that you don't need to read whole contexts and DEFINE words to get a job preaching.
Is it a sign of being godly that you would intentionally drive people out of their own property just so you can "make a place in the mainsteam for that which has always both attracted and repulsed at the same time." The persona of "worship teams" has been very deliberately divise by people who want to virtually make love with God.