I am greatly concerned that my congregation is becoming increasingly involved in "planting" Community Churches. See the enclosed exert from the following link: www.missionalive.org/news.asp?newsid=52&cat=6

“Missional church planting begins with developing biblical frameworks for understanding the church and perceiving how these biblical perspectives have been understood culturally and historically in order to plant distinctive communities of God in contemporary culture. To help our church planters think through the meaning and practice of missional church planting, we have invited Leonard Allen to facilitate our first Theology for Church Planting Lab, March 7-9, 2005. Many of us know Leonard’s heart as well as his scholarship. He passionately believes that God’s family must become The Cruciform Church, the title one of his books during the 1990s, and overcome our desire to opt into the popular fads of our day as illustrated by his book The Worldly Church. He challenges us to examine our own age, as he does in his most recent book Things Unseen: Churches of Christ In (and after) the Modern Age. Currently Leonard directs Leafwood Publishers and has served as visiting professor at Biola University, adjunct professor at Fuller Theological Seminary, and professor at Abilene Christian University. The Theology for Church Planting Lab will be held at the Riverside Church of Christ building (150 E. Beltline Road, Coppell, TX 75019). It will begin at 8:30 a.m. on Monday, March 7, and conclude at noon on March 9. The cost for Mission Alive church planters is $300 per family. This includes a hotel room for three nights, meals and snacks, workshop materials, and a stipend for the presenter. A deposit of $50 is required before February 25.”

Art McNeese our previous pulpit preacher (and the previous pulpit minister of South MacArthur Church of Christ in Irving Texas) is now leading a church planting effort in Flower Mound Texas with the support and guidance of the North Richland Hills Church of Christ from North Richland Hills Texas.

Dr. Kent Smith of ACU is another professor who is also deeply involved in CC “plantings” and has aided Art McNeese in this effort.

- Dean

I have posted some comments from Art's new WEB PAGE at Bridgway. It should show up here:

http://www.network54.com/Forum/150389/thread/1133146794/last-1133283338/%93Preaching+to+the+CHOIR%94+among+the+Hills+and+the+Creeks
This MISSIONAL madness is NOT the church of Christ. It is the Christian Church wearing the mask of churches of Christ. You should remember that an ACU guru once boasted that they were training advanced degrees to go out as Prophets, Chanellers and Facilitators to eleminate the conservative churches of Christ and make the CHANGES.

Probably nothing could cause Jesus and Paul to gag faster than someone getting to be a DOCTOR OF THE LAW as a SLAVE when Jesus FIRED them "because they take away the key to knowledge." If you look at the Bridge to Witchcraft it has NO remote connection to the ekklesia or school of the Bible Jesus founded. A fella on Faithsite halluciates that the KINGDOM is developing and we must bring it to the next state. I thik that is an unforgivable sin just as Shelly's claim to "partner with God" to "work out a new set of Scriptures."

Your best bet is to warn anyone who does not want to follow the pattern that THERE IS NO LAW OF SINGING, and NO LAW OF GIVING. And Paul defined a preacher who wouldn't preach that which has been preached as an ADULTERER.

KEN

Curious-If Paul defined a preacher who wouldn't preach that which has been preached as an ADULTERER - Then can his wife divorce him on scriptural grounds??
Just asking?
Anonymus.

Surely you ask this question in jest - the scriptures frequently describe rebellion against God's commandments with the metaphore of adultry.

I have been preaching for churches of Christ for 40 years.
Because I strive to bu9id the church as I believe Jesus
wants me to do, it means that I have "fires" to put out
that I build.

It bothers me when I have to put out fires that I or the
church that I have been with did not build.

The articles states that the anonymous writer states that
he is "greatly concerned that my congregation is becoming
increasingly involved in 'planting' Community Churches."

I will have a better answer next week, as we are having a
two day meeting of elders and staff to help our church be
the kind of Church that Jesus wants.
But I do not know of anyone is this church that is wanting
to plant "Community Churches." I will be ready to
apoligize next week when some of leaders admit that this is
their goal for this church.

To anonymously state that anyone could say "my
congregation," when he later states that he is not a member
here lacks some integrity to say the least. I hope many of
you have more time to spend building up the kingdom of God
than to present "facts" that are not facts at all.

WE will put out this fire. If you enjoying setting fires,
why not find a useful hobby?

Yours in Christ

Phil Evanson
Minster
Riverside Church of Christ in Coppell, TX


message edited for line breaks

Dear Pastor Evanson:

For the sake of full disclosure and putting things in proper perspective without anything being hidden from the public, what is your annual salary and does this include housing, utilities?

JC_1335

Remember..it's not what you believe Christ wants the church to be...it's what Christ Himself believes!

God bless.

If this is the church:

http://www.riverside-church.org/

You will see that Mike Armour is preaching a 5 part series which seems like the COMMUNITY CHURCH agenda where in other PATTERNISMS the word means COMMUNE.

Jesus built an EKKLESIA which is equivalent to SYNAGOGUE which is a weekly SCHOOL OF THE BIBLE where elders as the pastor-teachers TEACH THAT WHICH HAS BEEN TAUGHT. The church is NOT a community or commune. Paul clearly defined the limits of the assembly in Romans 15 which describes the synagogue. With the addition of the Lord's Supper this is INCLUSIVE of the CONTROL over a heirarchy OVER the laity, their time and their money. There is no PASSING THE COLLECTION PLATE so you must withhold YOUR money until you know whether your elders are going to REPUDIATE their side of the CONTRACT to keep the WOLVES (meaning perverts) out of the 'holy places' where in the Temple type any performance singer or musician would be instantly executed--even if he went in to clean out the garbage.

Paul's EXCLUSIVE patternism is that our private life is NOT SUBJECT TO DISPUTATION or dialog by the COMMUNE. Their friend, Rubel Shelly, says that in the commune "individuals DO NOT have the right to read, interpret and speak the WORD" outside of the community reading HEADED UP by scholars.

Some at ACU boast about training Prophets, Chanellers and Facilitators to go out and MAKE THE NEEDED CHANGES to all "conservative" churches of Christ. I have reviewed some of Mike Armour's theiLLogy beginning here where he proves that he is terminally ignorant of the Bible and the Restoration movement or terminally evil in trying to MANAGE you into a Missional Church with APOSTLES AND PROPHETS which YOU must not question.

http://www.piney.com/Mike.Armour.1.html

I have also reviewed Mike's NOT SINGING SOLO here where he PERVERTS every passage and known fact about INSTRUMENTAL MUSIC.

http://www.piney.com/MuArmour.html

This BAND of merry men THINK that they are apostles and prophets and they have the authority to lie cheat and steal the "church houses of widows."

http://www.riverside-church.org/sermons/051120%20text.htm

Mike Armout A few weeks ago we noted in passing, didn't call a lot of attention to it, a principle from Romans 1 where the apostle Paul makes a scathing indictment of the immorality of the Roman and Greek culture. He says on three different occasions in that description of their immorality that God gave them over to even more degrading passions because they chose not to remember him. But as Paul describes what begins this journey into degradation, he says the Greek and the Roman cultures made two mistakes.

If you read the WHOLE book you will discover that Paul has problems with the pagan sects as well as the Jews who resented the Gentiles being Christians until they became PREDESTINATED JEWS. Paul puts the Jews and Gentiles in the same status:

Mike Armout First he says, "Though they knew God, they did not honor him as God." Secondly, they were not grateful. Every time I come across that statement in Romans 1, I'm caught up short. If you were asked what are the roots of immorality and degradation in a society, how many of us would put ingratitude at the top of the list. But Paul says that's where it started. It started because they did not have a spirit of genuine gratitude.

Before Paul gets to THANKFUL (which you cannot do as a MUSICATING RITUAL) he says something more. It started because God had GIVEN the Jews The Book of the Covenant of Grace so that they KNEW the restatement of the Abrahamic Covenant. However, they worshipped the creature and turned to a MUSICAL ritual common to all pagans. This would DOOM them. Their KNOWLEDGE plus turning to MUSICAL WORSHIP Mike Armour approves was the PROOF or MARK of their ingratidued.

Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God,

They glorified him not as God,
neither were thankful;
but became vain in their imaginations,
and their foolish heart was darkened.

Paul says the same thing in 2 Cor 3 about the Jews who FELL because of musical idolatry. They tried to worship God with INSTRUMENTAL MUSIC which Mike Armour assigns to ignorant restorationists as their TRADITIONAL. Part of the MISSIONAL MADNESS which has been invented to replace the FAILED "church growth" cult includes DELIVERATELY imposing those same practices the FALSE LEADERS imposed at Mount Sinai.

2 Cor 3:13 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:

2 Cor 3: 14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.

2 Cor 3: 15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.

2 Cor 3: 16 Nevertheless, when it shall turn [only at baptism' to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.

2 Cor 3: 17 Now the Lord IS that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

2 Cor 3: 18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

They fell into the same trap of DOCTORS OF THE LAW whom Jesus says "take away the key to knowledge."

Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

Rom 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

Rom 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

For the ekklesia, synagogue or SCHOOL of the Bible in Romans 15 he does not leave this PLEASURING as a DIVERSITY which he intends to allow for DIALOG. The pleasuring is the same REPROACHES Jesus was prophesied to endure which was TO EXPOSE HIS PRIVATE PARTS. This pleasuring which is FACILITATED withou arousal singing LIFTS UP the mind to CARRY it away for the preacher's OWN PURPOSES.

Rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

Rom 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

Paul OUTLAWED women exercising authority in the assembly. This is AUTHENTIA which means "EROTIC AND MURDEROUS." They will have the GIRLY show going pretty quick to EXERCISE sexual authority which changes the NATURE of women.

Rom 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, BURNED in their LUSTE one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

JUST READ THE SERMONS FOR PROOF:

When you REFUSE to have the WORD in your mind which is proven by SERMONIZING rather than teaching that which has been taught, God sends you STRONG DELUSIONS so you can slander churches of Christ and all of Church history while being ignorant of the MUSICAL IDOLATRY at Mount Sinai. For that idolatry Stephen and many others teach that GOD TURNED THEM OVER TO WORSHIP THE STARRY HOSTS (Acts 7)

"The triumphal hymn of Moses had unquestionably a religious character about it; but the employment of music in religious services, though idolatrous, is more distinctly marked in the festivities which attended the erection of the golden calf." (Smith's Bible Dictionary, Music, p. 589).

"In the New Testament there is nowhere any emphasis laid on the musical form of the hymns; and in particular none on instrumental accompaniment whereas this is significantly paganism." (Delling, Gerhard, Worship in the New Testament, trans. Percy Scott Phil. Westminster press, 1962, p. 86).

"They sat down to eat and drink and rose up to play. They practiced rites in which they made themselves naked, perhaps similar to those which were carried out by naked Babylonian priests." (Woodrow, p. 158).

The word "play" is used of Samson as the pagans caused him to "sport" during their worship services of Dagon. Otherwise, the word is used only of David who performed an Egyptian form of naked dance as he moved the Ark to the one he had provided in Jerusalem. David was in fact separating the presence of God at the Tabernacle from the Ark of the covenant in which David believed that God lived.

"Not to be overlooked here is the accompaniment of music and dancing which, with the character of the ensuing phenomena, makes the diagnosis (of idolatry) certain." (Schaff-Herzog, Ecstasy, p. 71).

"And the people celebrated this feast with burnt-offerings and thank-offerings, with eating and drinking, i.e. with sacrificial meals and sports, or with loud rejoicing, shouting, antiphonal songs, and dances, in the same manner in which the Egyptians celebrated their feast of Apis(Herod. 2, 60, and 3, 27)." (Keil and Delitzsch, Vol. II, p. 222).

That is part of the UNIVERSAL theme that when a group turns to MUSIC and especially by MALES performing "arousal" singing with or without instruments ALL of the resources mark them as PERVERTED and PERVERTING.

The word Psallo or melody simply means to PLUCK to make a noise. Paul insisted that the melody be on the HEART STRINGS because EXTERNAL plucking spoke of literal warfare or males PLUCKING the harp strings to seduce the young "ministers of the gods" for pederasty.

No PhDuh will find A SINGLE EXCEPTION.

I must say that I'm sorry that I've found this website. I just hope that it doesn't spread any farther than it already has. Almost all of these comments are among the most ridiculous arguments and nonsense that I have ever read—(and does no one on this sight use spell check?) Do the dissenters on this site have nothing better to do with their time? ...Oh, wait...yes, they could be building up the Church instead of spreading blasphemy and gossip.

May God be with all the churches mentioned on this sight and all the people fighting within them.

ewp
minister
san antonio
(just for your info-not at Oak Hills)

Just had to point this out...

Someone was saying how bad this site is then said "Does no one on this sight use spell check?"

I thought it was pretty funny, seeing as they spelled "sight" wrong. It's site. Have fun with that log, hope it comes out of your eye with the least pain possible.

Paul says the same thing in 2 Cor 3 about the Jews who FELL because of musical idolatry. They tried to worship God with INSTRUMENTAL MUSIC which Mike Armour assigns to ignorant restorationists as their TRADITIONAL. Part of the MISSIONAL MADNESS which has been invented to replace the FAILED "church growth" cult includes DELIVERATELY imposing those same practices the FALSE LEADERS imposed at Mount Sinai.
2 Cor 3:13 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:

2 Cor 3: 14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.

2 Cor 3: 15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.

2 Cor 3: 16 Nevertheless, when it shall turn [only at baptism' to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.

2 Cor 3: 17 Now the Lord IS that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

2 Cor 3: 18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.
They fell into the same trap of DOCTORS OF THE LAW whom Jesus says "take away the key to knowledge."

Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

Rom 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

Rom 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

For the ekklesia, synagogue or SCHOOL of the Bible in Romans 15 he does not leave this PLEASURING as a DIVERSITY which he intends to allow for DIALOG. The pleasuring is the same REPROACHES Jesus was prophesied to endure which was TO EXPOSE HIS PRIVATE PARTS. This pleasuring which is FACILITATED withou arousal singing LIFTS UP the mind to CARRY it away for the preacher's OWN PURPOSES.

Rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

Rom 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

Paul OUTLAWED women exercising authority in the assembly. This is AUTHENTIA which means "EROTIC AND MURDEROUS." They will have the GIRLY show going pretty quick to EXERCISE sexual authority which changes the NATURE of women.

Rom 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, BURNED in their LUSTE one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

JUST READ THE SERMONS FOR PROOF:

When you REFUSE to have the WORD in your mind which is proven by SERMONIZING rather than teaching that which has been taught, God sends you STRONG DELUSIONS so you can slander churches of Christ and all of Church history while being ignorant of the MUSICAL IDOLATRY at Mount Sinai. For that idolatry Stephen and many others teach that GOD TURNED THEM OVER TO WORSHIP THE STARRY HOSTS (Acts 7)
"The triumphal hymn of Moses had unquestionably a religious character about it; but the employment of music in religious services, though idolatrous, is more distinctly marked in the festivities which attended the erection of the golden calf." (Smith's Bible Dictionary, Music, p. 589).

"In the New Testament there is nowhere any emphasis laid on the musical form of the hymns; and in particular none on instrumental accompaniment whereas this is significantly paganism." (Delling, Gerhard, Worship in the New Testament, trans. Percy Scott Phil. Westminster press, 1962, p. 86).

"They sat down to eat and drink and rose up to play. They practiced rites in which they made themselves naked, perhaps similar to those which were carried out by naked Babylonian priests." (Woodrow, p. 158).
The word "play" is used of Samson as the pagans caused him to "sport" during their worship services of Dagon. Otherwise, the word is used only of David who performed an Egyptian form of naked dance as he moved the Ark to the one he had provided in Jerusalem. David was in fact separating the presence of God at the Tabernacle from the Ark of the covenant in which David believed that God lived.
"Not to be overlooked here is the accompaniment of music and dancing which, with the character of the ensuing phenomena, makes the diagnosis (of idolatry) certain." (Schaff-Herzog, Ecstasy, p. 71).

"And the people celebrated this feast with burnt-offerings and thank-offerings, with eating and drinking, i.e. with sacrificial meals and sports, or with loud rejoicing, shouting, antiphonal songs, and dances, in the same manner in which the Egyptians celebrated their feast of Apis(Herod. 2, 60, and 3, 27)." (Keil and Delitzsch, Vol. II, p. 222).

TEACHING MUST BE BASED ON GOD'S WORD, NOT DOCTRINES OF MEN:



Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. (Mark 7:7)


Teaching man's rules, commandments, and doctrines is "vain". This means it is unsuccessful and accomplishes no good purpose. Biblical teaching is not based on the wisdom of man:



Which things also we speak, not in the word which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

(I Corinthians 2:13)


God's wisdom accomplishes His purposes in the lives of those taught:



...Christ in you, the hope of glory;



Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus. (Colossians 1:27-28)

Wow. I must admit that I don't understand the relevance of 90% of what Ken's message meant. I recently stumbled on this site, and here are my thoughts.

I know several folks from Riverside. They are great folks, love the Lord, and want to see him brought to their community, in whatever relevant way that is.

I grew up C of C, and until last fall, attended a relatively traditional church of Christ in the area. We got tired of the church and church leadership trying to figure out what it wanted to be and never deciding.

Last fall we began attending Cross Timber Community church in Argyle, Texas. Cross Timbers was started by several families from primarily a church of Christ background six years ago. It is now a 4000+ member body, on four campuses, with seven weekend services.

I have never felt more spiritually alive in my life. The music is spirit filled, all types of people are welcome (and feel welcome), the unsaved are being brought to Christ, the message is biblical and meaningfull, and I can bring my friends without having to worry about what they will think.

If that is wrong, then I want more churches to be "wrong."

Thanks for listening.

Robert
I was laughing out loud at your comment because I can so relate to your response to Ken's postings. I have come to the point that I just skip over Ken's postings because it is like reading a foreign language. I just don’t have the patience or time to translate. I praise God for your church growth and that God's spirit is at work mightily among your congregation. Praise God in the highest! May the fruit continue to produce and grow in your congregation and reap a glorious harvest!

John 15:5
"I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.

About 90% of Ken's post was the Bible and literate scholars: you were not SUPPOSED to understand even 10%

I think anyone who can boast of such growth (true or not) BY DEFINITION cannot be the EKKLESIA of Christ. Must be a Theater for holy entertainment: the mother harlot is clearly defined in Revelation 18 and the TRAFFIC is HUGE and sumbuddy is riding on sumthin or another.

The FRUITS the LUSTED after were ALWAYS callled FRUITS and the MUSICATORS and "theater builders and stage managers" are defined in 18:22 as being LOST when the CUSTOMERS find out that the NEXT TO LAST act is "having a sexual like Climactic" experience with the gods and the LAST act of worship (just like Abaddon's Seeker Center at Delphi) was GIVING OF MEANS.

Verse 19 identifies the MIMICS in music etal as SORCERERS and the next verse proves that the CANDLES or "seven spirits of God" have been BLOWN out!

When you speak of CAMPUSES you are bound up in the Missional Chruch which is a BIG TIME CULT invented to fool the fools when the Jubilee NEW WINE went sour. Do you have Apostles and Prophets yet. This was often a END OF CENTURY mental breakdown where having lost the WORD they "Crack away to an archaic religionism" in your case, you probably have GONE ALL THE WAY. Next, you need to identify the Holy Whore who is probably disguised as a MALE but is the Mother Goddes or ZOE. She is called the BEAST and the FEMALE INSTRUCTING PRINCIPLE.

The music is the END TIME TRUMPETS blowing UP those with the Mark of the Beast and blowing OUT those with the Spirit of Christ.

Please define your Wourshupp-uh, yore musicating and yout STEWARDSHIP plan. Do they tell you to TITHE? How do you become a MEMBER of yore tribe? Very interested: maybe you can make YORE'S 90% factual and then Goo-Goo-Bar can give us a girlish giggle: he! he! he! Did I tell you that LAUGHING by Buffoons and JESTERS and musicators is the PROOF of God pouring out His WRATH meaning ORGE.

Ken- surely in all the time you spend reading fake apocalyptic literature, you surely pause to check out the Bible from time to time. If so, you should know that envy is a sin. You said:

"I think anyone who can boast of such growth (true or not) BY DEFINITION cannot be the EKKLESIA of Christ. Must be a Theater for holy entertainment"

If a body of Christians is growing and multiplying per our direct command in the Great Commission, then we must not be the church? Seriously, I don't even think your lackeys on this site would believe that.

I think your church isn't growing, in fact I would guess it's shrinking because of people like you. When you see growth from Christians who are doing it right, you can't stand to change with them, or even encourage their ministry. The best you can do is: "Must not be the church, it's just holy entertainment..."

I don't think you're a bad guy. I think you do what you do because you sincerely love God's church. I just think that you have been in a foxhole, on the defensive for so long, you don't even know who the enemy is. Look what you've become. I'm sad for you.

Okay, I have to up my percentage. I didn't understand 99% of what that message meant. You asked that I clearly define the worhip style. Here it is:

1. A wonderful praise band leads worship. It is fantastic and spirit filled.

2. New converts are baptized almost weekly.

3. We take communion every week.

4. There is a meaningful, Bible based, relevant message.

5. The message is usually accompanied by a relevant video clip.

6. A contribution is taken. Yes, we are encouraged to tithe.

7. The dress is very casual. This creates a comfortable environment that it is easy to bring folks to.

There are no goblins, harlots, goo-goo heads, hobbits, dragons, or unicorns present. There are no ogres (or orgies, which ever word you meant, I have seen you use both). We don't worship idols or evil musical instruments.

All kidding aside, the spirit is moving, people are meeting Christ where they are and where they need Him, and our God is being praised. You just can't have it any better than that! We just announced growth to a third campus, expanding to eight services on the weekend.

All the best,

-Robert.

Robert and Everyone,

Stop trying to resist Ken and repent. He alone holds the keys to wisdom, because he is BIBLICAL! They are not his interpretations of the BIBLE, JUST THE TRUTHS of the BIBLE! If you think you are reading something correctly in the Bible, check first with Ken. If he says you are right, then you know you are on God's side. If not, well, you know where you are heading and you will have to repent. If you would like to go to heaven, I would suggest doing as Ken says. In fact, that goes for the rest of the world too! If people really loved God, and really wanted to go to heaven, they would get on their knees and do as WE say, because WE are the only church, actually synagogue, that Christ himself established. It's that simple.

Robert, if you will but put aside the NIV, and stick only to the KJ, you will get the only message God ever intended for us to have. At least us English speaking people, that is. If the rest of the world wants to know God, I would suggest they learn English, specifically Shakespearean English. I am not sure if those Germans are going to heaven, because Martin Luther wrote theirs, and not God. That is probably why Europe is in such a mess right now. Clearly Luther was musicating when he wrote their bible. He wrote that one song about God being a mighty fortress, so that should tell you all you need to know right there. He was running for his life from the Pope when he wrote that, so that should also tell you that it is somehow related to Catholicism and probably the Harlot of Babylon. Back then, as now, the Pope was trying to get the world to quit rocking the boat and stick to that which had been taught!

Anyway, Robert, stick to that which has been taught and quit trying to rock the boat! Only when you remove your preacher, stop tithing, and stop singing unless they are Psalms, hymns, or spiritual songs (obviously God does not like the Psalms that talk about musical instruments, so leave those out), will God start listening to you again. Perhaps you can still save the candlesticks of the Riverside and Cross Timbers churches. He does not care about helping the poor or needy, just making sure the synagogue school is done perfectly each Sunday. That is why he died, so we would not have to mess up Sunday mornings.

"But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless." (Matthew 12:7)

I,m not quoting scripture here but just a little saying my Grandmother passed down to me many years ago. I've updated the last part. After trying to read and understand some of Mr. Sublett's post I found this saying to be most appropriate. " I would like to buy Mr. Sublett for what he is worth, then sell him for what he thinks he is worth." And people today think the oil companies are making huge profits.

Brad, that is the most glowing summary of TRUTH I have ever heard: I'm about in tears. That reminds me of good WorseShup-us song:

I've got tears in my ears
From laying on my side
In my bed
As I cry over you.

Is a Brad that flat headed thingy like a RIVET. You, know Aristophanes had some good rivet, rivet, rivet songs about the MUSES: as clouds they farted a tune, rivet, rivet , rivet.

Is that the church HATCHED with church of Christ money?

1. A wonderful praise band leads worship. It is fantastic and spirit filled.

When people use wonderful, fantistic, spirit filled and AWESOME that is a "GENDER-MARKER."

Wrong SPIRIT, there fella: the musicians at Mount Sinai when they rose up to PLAY worshipped DEMONS or the BULL spirit and lordy the new preachers and sangers are just FULL of it.

Did I tell you that PRAISE SINGING is one of the odest professions? Sure, History knows that those who were emotionally or secually abnormal had a way to go MAD (the Mad Women in Corinth) and call down a rain or a good sex life or some more lambs. SODOMY was believed to "bind the flesh and spirit together." You know, sumphonia, "moving together." Hee Haw, the angels MOCK your madness.

All PAGANS engaged in PRAISE SINGING: the leaders were Encomiasts. They made SURE that the "gods" did not fail and let the sky fail again.

So, you are, just in time for the Holy Whore called CIRCE (church) worshiping GOD (Gad, the demon god of fortune) with what John in Revelation 18 identified as SORCERERS who were under Lucifer or Zoe called the "beast and female instructing principle" and also in Tyre as "the singing and harp playing prostitute." The KING was a prostitue but he wanted to be REMEMBERED as a MALE.

The MILL STONE identifies the GRINDERS which were concubines or PROSTITUTES: the word means a "musical note" much like a flute meaning to "pollute or prostitute to STEAL your property."

That is not going to CAUSE any trouble: in the Book of Enoch and all history MUSIC was the MARK of people who had "fallen and could never get back up." Sure, the LOCUSTS in Revelation are the MUSES and they SEPARATE one from another those with the MARK OF CAIN (meaning a musical note) from those MARKED with the WORD of God which IS SPIRIT AND LIFE if you believe Jesus.

So, don't think that you are using FREE WILL because you ain't: God has caused the faithful to FLEE at the MARK of the LOCUSTS "with long hair" leaving those MARKED by music in an easy to "BE LEFT BEHIND" depository and they WILL not ever be able to get out. That is the message of Enoch quoted by Jude and THE identification of those FOR WHOM God will come with ten thousand of His Saints to punish you, JUST like He came in fire at Mount Sinai when they rose up to PLAY.

Frankly, I rejoice to see THE DAY which has been prophesied so clearly that ONLY those whom God has blinded can MISS it. Like the king/queen of Babylon they will rot and be consumed on a BED of fire and MAGGOTS with HER harps and still-breathing HARPISTS: I have pictures.

Eat drink and make MARY for tommorrow you die. The MARKETING with sex sure worked for ALL of the pagan goddesses but the FAITHFUL will have to "go outside the campe (crowds meaning beasts)" in order to FIND Jesus and suffer REPROACHES. You guys are just the DRIVERS perhaps predestinated as the "musicians" were known to be FALLEN ANGELS who taught the faithful "mixed sex choirs, musical instruments, sexuality and perverted sexuality" to create the ORIGINAL FALL. You know, the serpent was the Nachash meaning a Musical Enchanter. And Assyria was the "tallest tree" in Eden and Eve ATE from the MIDST. Hee Haw: Paul said that she was WHOLLY SEDUCED and Cain (a musical note) was OF that wicked one. Hee Haw.

You people SURELY must be gradu-ates of Anti Christ University: I have never heard such Biblical and ethical moronics.

The old TITHING ropa dopa huh? Well, has the preacher supplied you with a FREE FARM? And do you just give the FRUIT of your vines to him and NEVER Cash: Malachi calls that ROBBERY. The religious component got 1/10 of 2/7 year tithes. That is NOT enought to live on. Every honest priest had a craft and if HE wanted a new Chariot then HE worked for it like all honest people.

Is the Preacher a LEVITE who gets a daily dole of food ONLY when on duty and ONLY at the Temple and only SERVING the priest meaning HARD BONDAGE.

If JESUS PAID IT ALL to who do YOU owe a Tithe. The LAW OF TITHING repudiates the CROSS and is no more ethical than telling an old widow that SHE needs to get a job and support, in John Calvin's words "A lazy ass."

There is NO LAW OF GIVING and Paul and ALL of church history tells me so: it is a SCAM worse than Benny Hinn: he at least speaks some Bible.

There is NO LAW OF SINGING: singing as an ACT was not added until the year 373. So WHUT are you criminals doing and THEN using music and USING musicians to suck in the DOLLARS? Shame, shame, shame. The Book of Enoch and dozens of similar versions identifies the SINGERS AND MUSICIANS as those for whom God will come to punish everlastingly. The word SPEAK as in the EKKLESIA specificially REJECTS MUSIC or the "muses" or all FINE arts from the FINE ARTISTS spreading a virus WORSE than AIDS.

Jesus denounced the Scribes, Pharisees and Hypocrites: These were all part of the Pharisee Sect.

The Scribes wrote songs, sermons, legal briefs or accounts to be sold at festivals.

The Pharisees CHANGED the Word of God so they could sell long prayers (hymns) and fleece the widow out of her last food.

The Hypocrites were a SECTARIAN GROUP also: all who PERFORMED such as rhetoricians, sOPHISts (serpents in Revelation), singers, danders, musicians or actors belong to the SECTARIAN HYPOCRITES. Because everyone knew that they were WORTHLESS CREATURES they were called PARASITES. In polite communities if a singer or musician came in and wanted to PERFORM and get PAID they "honeyed and cottoned them" and rode them out of town backward on an ASS. Hee Haw.

You should understand that a MALE in polite society who wouldl go public and SING and play an instrument was known to be a DRUNK or a PERVERT. Nothing change but change itself. Why would people LUST to make musicians the PERSONA of Jesus standing in the holy places. I can give you ONLY one guess.

"Only women and the EFFEMINATE fell into it."

In Revelation 18 they are SORCERERS for the Mother of Whores and end time worship. They are the FRUITS people LUSTED AFTER (no joke: fruits were always fruits) They will RETURN to Hell from whence Abaddon unleashed them as the legendary LOCUSTS with scorpiob STINGERS in their tails. That is why the PLAGUES of weeping sores sounds like the growing epidemic of AIDS among the HYPOCRITICAL or HISTRIONIC arts.

"I have often seen a man (actor)-- and have been amazed to see, and the amazement has ended in contempt, to think how he is one thing internally, but outwardly counterfeits what he is not--

giving himself excessive airs of daintiness and
indulging in all sorts of effeminacy;
somethines darting his eyes about;
sometimes throwing his hands hither and thither,

and raving with his face smeared with mud (sweat, spit and dust); sometimes personating Aphrodite (ZOE female), sometimes Apollo (male); a solitary accuser of all the gods, an epitome of superstition, a vituperator of heroic deeds, an actor of murders, a chronicler of adultery,

a storehouse of madness, a teacher of cynaedi, an instigator of capital sentences;-- and yet such a man is praised by all. But I have rejected all his falsehoods, his impiety, his practices,--in short, the man althogether.

But you are led captive by such men, while you revile those who do not take a part in your pursuits.

I have no mind to stand agape at a number of singers, nor do I desire to be affected in sympathy with a man when he is winking and gesticulating in an unnatural manner."...

"Why should I admire the mythic piper... We leave you to these worthless things; and do you believe our doctrines, or, like us, give up yours." (Tatian to the Greeks, Ante-Nicene, Vol. II, p. 75).

http://www.piney.com/ChFatTat.html

Can YOU guess why CERTAIN PhDuhs are training you to DO worship with the UNIVERSAL personae of sexual perverts? Maybe THEY lust after FRUITS.

You DO know that Psallo that PLUCKING word is always connected to a MALE plucking the harp strings to seduce a young "minister of the gods" who has had His PUBIC hair plucked to perform the act which BOUND FLESH AND SPIRIT TOGETHER. WOW. They quote those guys but DON'T tell you about the FRUIT PLUCKING.

If you look CLOSELY you will find a Mother Goddess and Not Elders who are now in charge. That is why you need to know that feminism will EMASCULATE YOU. As Paul would say THE WILL GO ALL THE WAY. I KID YOU NOT you have been MATRIARCHED. She may be an elder's wife or musician but SHE HAS LANDED.

She probably will have been ZOE trained and gender is not always easy to detect.

Okay Ken, I give. You managed to make it 100% of your message that I don't understand.

Peace be with you, I know that it is with me; the Lord be with you, I know that He is with me; and may God bless His church, all of His church, and add to the numbers daily.

I truly believe that it is a time of great spiritual awakening, as the church stays true to the Bible yet throws off the chains of irrelevant tradition. I am glad to be part of a church that is part of that great awakening as new believers are added to the Kingdom.

May God bless you and grant you peace.

-Robert.

May the greatest man back away from this conversation.

Just as you see, the greatest man was crucified, he was 100% right, but died on the cross because of mans thinking.

YOU GUYS BATTLE BACK AND FORTH "WHY"

I realy think if everyone one of the stone throwers on this web site would attend just one service or watch one online at the

Guts Church in Tulsa OK
http://www.gutschurch.com

I DARE ANY OF YOU TO SIT THROUGH ONE OF HIS SUNADAY SERVICES OF REAL PREACHING.

LISTEN TO REAL GOSPEL SERMONS THAT TEACH REAL SCRIPTUE NOT WATERED DOWN QUICKIES , PARAPHRASED SCRIPTURE AND LONG WINDED PRAISE SONGS ALL OF YOU WOULD BE HAPPIER!!!

HE WILL CHANGE YOUR LIFE!

You would never walk in another CHURCH OF CHRIST ANYWAY