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First Colony Church: notes on Instrumental Music in 1 Corinthians 14

April 14 2008 at 10:57 PM
Robert  (Login rleallen)
from IP address 76.30.94.164

People who think that instruments (speaking in tongues) has any role in the assembly or School of Christ are clearly marked by Paul in 1 Corinthians 14 which begins with speaking in tongues.

The SPEAKING in Corinth (since no one had a gift) was charismatic gibberish which always points to effeminate pagan worship specificialy pointing to the New Wine Skins and Apollo who is Abaddon or Apollyon who has released Locusts of Muses to terrorize the World but to SEPARATE the good from the evil.

Here is a first part:

http://www.piney.com/Howbeit.in.the.Spirit.He.Speaketh.Mysteries.html

The persona of the musical bandits proves the point.








I just received an email from a concerned friend at church who was telling me that there was going to be a meeting explaining how instrumental music was going to be added. May 4th is the target date. The note said that this information needed to be on the "QT" because the congregation did not know this was about to happen. There will be a meeting later this month and a DVD presentation by Rick Atchley. The minister at First Colony is not as dynamic a speaker as Rick Atchley and needs help to get this message across, because the majority of the congregation has already heard about this instrumental music service. The shepherds have become sheep! I am curious as to why the darkness! Bring this out into the light if this is good and just!. John 3 states that evil is afraid to be found out and that is why they stay in the dark.

The email said that the congregation would be completing a brief survey--I guess to determine a consensus? Is this the Oracle of Dephi technique being used on good people?


    
This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 166.248.84.225 on Jun 23, 2012 3:42 PM


 
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AuthorReply
Anonymous
(no login)
76.31.45.148

Text of email sent to FCCC members

April 27 2008, 8:37 PM 

This email was sent to the FCCC members mailing list on 4/25/08:

This Sunday I Start A Two Week Series Called “Music Matters” And We Will Ask For Your Feedback Next Sunday, May 4… I plan to talk very openly about our musical heritage in the churches of Christ (much of which is so very positive). We’ll bathe this discussion in the light of scripture and ask for your prayers. Last summer & fall, all the elders began to study, reflect, discuss and pray about asking the church to consider offering well-done, tasteful, live instrumentation in one of our worship services and if so, when should that service be offered. By “well-done” I mean a service where the instrumentation complements rather than overwhelms and where participatory singing remains a high value.

Bottom line: all the elders felt fine about allowing a service with live instrumentation (but only if well-done and only if a strong exclusively acappella presence continues in other services) and we’ve even talked about some possible specifics with one another and our deacons. However, the reality is we are not married to anything specific regarding dates and times. We have certainly given this some thought but nothing is set in stone. We are not even married to offering an instrumental service. But we are married to a clear and open process where we ask the entire church to consider the possibility of live instrumentation in one of the worship services of our church family. We ask you to consider this through a process of evaluating scripture, praying for God’s leading, considering one another, and providing feedback.

Specifically, on Sunday May 4 we will ask you to fill out a brief survey telling us your perspectives regarding “church music”. That survey will also be available on-line and here’s what it will do: it will help us know more accurately where we are as a church family and what you think. When it comes to even considering any kind of transition in our church culture, our elders will move slowly & gently and will provide time for study, evaluation, prayer and dialog. I’m looking forward to presenting these two messages and I hope you’ll be encouraged.

 
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Ken Sublett
(no login)
69.19.14.40

Re: First Colony Church of Christ annouces Instramental music for 3rd service

April 29 2008, 9:40 AM 

Is this the church?

Ronnie Norman is our Senior Minister. Ronnie's gifts of preaching and providing leadership to the church family continue to be a catalyst for effective ministry. Serving the church since 1985, Ronnie is the only Senior Minister in the history of First Colony..

http://www.firstcolonychurch.org/

Ronnie Norman has been a misguiding light from the beginning so there is no doubt that he has been warming the waters to boil the frogs.

They ALL read off the same script prepared for them by the NACC who has used them as Judas Goats. There is not a jot or tittle of truth in Rick Atchley's "white paper filled with black lies." My reviews of Rick Atchley are tentative but I have reviewed the REST of the ORIGINAL BAND who intended to RESTRUCTURE all churches of Christ but have had to settle with perverting their own congregation.

http://www.piney.com/Rick-Atchley-Music.html

Here is the best summary of the Old Testament reviewing Terry Rush:

http://www.piney.com/Terry.Rush.Review.html

There are TWO THREADS from Genesis to Revelation:

The PAGAN thread: The Israelits fell into musical idolatry at Mount Sinai. God turned them over to worship the starry host and IMPOSED the law to regulate them until the captivity and death sentence was carried out. ALL of the "proof texts" they use is to DRAG YOU back beyond the cross.

The SPIRITUAL thread: However, the Spirit OF Christ commanded the Qahal, synagogue or church in the wilderness.
It was INCLUSIVE of resting (from Ronnies), reading and rehearsing the Word of God.
It was EXCLUSIVE by outlawing an assembly with "vocal or instrumental rejoicing.

That is because it was always a SCHOOL OF THE BIBLE to quarantine the godly Isralites from the pagan clergy.
The Spirit OF Christ spoke ONLY through the prophets all of whom radically condemn musical instruments as MARKS of people who refused to listen to God. I suggest the BOAST of Senior Minister having first fired all of the vocational deacons and USED deaconesses, proves that the ELDERS have been intimidated into going along to get along.

IT IS ALL, 1OO% LYING TO GOD AND ABOUT GOD.

Because you will be listening to Rick Atchley's material you need to alert people to the fact that Rick is terminally ignorant about the context and story line he quotes or he INTENTIONALLY plans to lead you into the same Babylonianism the Israelites were cursed with especially in and around the temple.

Because the end-times promises a FEMALE and EFFEMINATE take over you should be aware that:

Revelation warns of the Mother of Harlots Revelation 17

1. SHE uses "lusted after fruits" as

2. Slick and lying preachers, singers and the same instruments Lucifer--the singing and harp playing prostitute--brought with him/her/itself into the garden of Eden.

3. John calls them SORCERERS (Revelation 18) as indeed ALL of the instrument terms are rooted in vileness and were never used except for MIND CONTROL.

Any Bible literate person knows the MARK and I doubt that this small band of merry men do not know that they are agents of a bad hostile takeover.

If you have any written material let me know: I will not reveal names

piney@piney.com

They will or have tried to intimidate you into silence: don't listen, it is YOUR property and YOUR church and human family they INTENTIONALLY intend to divide hoping they can fill your property with their own kind which always had ONE PERSONA. You are the PAYMASTER and the preacher is a HIRELING: exercise your rights and confront him. Do NOT flee: that is what they want the owners to do. Oppose Him, do mailings to the members, do NOT feed his face because there is no LAW OF GIVING for such vileness.

They have spent more than a decade ORGANIZING behind your backs: do not let them turn your school of the
Bible into a "theater for holy entertainment." Their condescending to an a capella assembly is NOT for long and because musical machines in the face of a Holy God was always vile, your whole property will be defiled. Let them if they have minimal human ethics GO and build their own property or meet with a Christian Church and see if THEY will tolerate an NON-MACHINE worship. Do it: this is YOUR chance to as WWYDWJ.

 
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Stanley Cook
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74.226.39.200

Refuting Anti-Instrumental Doctrine

May 1 2008, 11:54 AM 

Refuting The Anti-Instrumental Doctrine of The Church of Christ


Many Churches of Christ have made the issue of instrumental music (IM) paramount, almost on a level equal to the Gospel. Yet the traditional teaching on this subject by most Churches of Christ is false doctrine, pure and simple! Space doesn’t permit a lengthy article that I wrote on the subject a few years ago, so here’s a condensed version.


Refuting the “No New Testament Authorization” Doctrine

The best way to know what the scriptures teach is to understand the original Greek language. The main scripture used to refute IM opposition is Ephesians 5:19. Consider this: the part of Ephesians 5:19 where Paul wrote: “…sing and make melody in your hearts…” can be misleading when read from the KJV. The original Greek says: “adontes kai psallontes”. Adontes means “singing”, then “kai” is a conjunction (also used in Acts 2:38 in “repent and [kai] be baptized”) meaning the joining of two separate actions. Obviously repenting and being baptized are not one and the same action, but two separate actions, which is also true in Ephesians 5:19: “singing” plus another action: “psallontes”, meaning to pluck a stringed instrument. By the way, it’s really stretching it to claim that the “plucking” here is plucking the heart strings, or the vocal chords. Therefore, the Christians in the first century, since they understood the original Greek language, would have read that as “Sing and pluck a stringed instrument”. (The MacArthur Study Bible also supports this understanding of this passage). But what do we do about the “in your hearts” part? Again, returning to the original Greek, it means to put your heart into those two actions. Now whether this is even referring to a worship assembly or not, whatever the case, they would have understood it to mean to do both actions as one praises God whether in private, personal worship, or in worship with others.


Refuting that the “Psalms Were Part of the Old Law" Doctrine

The Psalms may have been written while the Old Law was in effect, but they were not a part of the Law that was given to Moses (which was done away with). In Deuteronomy 31:24-26a, it says: “After Moses finished writing in a book the words of this law from beginning to end, he gave this command to the Levites who carried the ark of the covenant of the Lord: ‘Take this Book of the Law and place it beside the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God’…”.

The Old Law never commanded or suggested using instrumental music, yet David stated in the Psalms that it, along with dancing was among the ways people were to praise God. (See Psalm 150). Now think: as harsh as the Old Law was, if it had been something God would oppose, since He had not commanded it in The Law, you can bet your boots they would have been struck dead for doing an “unauthorized act of worship”, but they were not! Therefore, since the Psalms were not a part of The Old Law (Law of Moses) that was “nailed to the cross”, it’s obvious that even the first century disciples would not have considered it an act that would have ended. The use of instrumental music in praise to God would have come naturally to those believers since that’s what they had been familiar with. Since the burnt offerings and incense were a part of the Old Law, they would have known that those laws had been done away with. So the argument that “if someone is going to use instrumental music, then they have to have burnt offerings“, is faulty at best.

 
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Ron Hill
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72.227.126.82

In your heart

October 12 2009, 2:06 PM 

IF I were to "bet my boots" on anything I would "bet my boots" that the first christians KNEW that "making melody in your heart" did not mean to "pluck an instrument", it meant what it said "In your heart"(spiritual) not an instrument(physical). Why are we so intent to stretch the scriptures to try and satisify people.

 
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Charles
(no login)
75.148.163.133

Why?

May 2 2008, 4:52 PM 

Robert and Ken,

Clearly there are at least two sides to the issue of instrumental worship. One side says it is wrong and forbidden either directly or indirectly in the Bible. The other side disagrees and feels that it should be up to each congregation to decide whether or not to have some form of instrumental worship. Hopefully we can agree on that.

It seems clear that the First Colony Church of Christ is only exploring the idea of using instruments to quote the email sent to the entire congregation

"We have certainly given this some thought but nothing is set in stone. We are not even married to offering an instrumental service. But we are married to a clear and open process where we ask the entire church to consider the possibility of live instrumentation in one of the worship services of our church family."

Why would you, Robert, say "I am curious as to why the darkness! Bring this out into the light if this is good and just!. John 3 states that evil is afraid to be found out and that is why they stay in the dark."?

I read the same email you did. (The one that asked the deacons to keep from spreading the news) The reason is that the Elders wanted to share this with all of the church leaders and seek their questions and comments before it was discussed with the congregation as a whole. In a church body and in all walks of life, leaders sometimes choose to seek input before implementing changes. It makes sense to do that and it makes sense to ask that those who you told early to "sit" on that information until all decisions have been made. By the way, many of the original ideas and implementations were changed as a result of these leader meetings.

Another quote from the email,

"Specifically, on Sunday May 4 we will ask you to fill out a brief survey telling us your perspectives regarding “church music”. That survey will also be available on-line and here’s what it will do: it will help us know more accurately where we are as a church family and what you think."

It clearly appears that the Church leadership, including Ronnie Norman, is seeking input from the membership before a decision has been made. It goes directly against your comment about this taking place in "darkness."

Also Robert, you said that "The minister at First Colony is not as dynamic a speaker as Rick Atchley and needs help to get this message across, because the majority of the congregation has already heard about this instrumental music service."

When did you decide that Ronnie is less dynamic than Rick? How did you decide this? What are you basing this on? Frankly, it just sounds mean! Rick's DVD series is being offered to the church members to provide additional information about the topic of instrumental music. It is not being done to shore-up Ronnie's inadequacies.

Ken, why would you say that, "Ronnie Norman has been a misguiding light from the beginning so there is no doubt that he has been warming the waters to boil the frogs."?

What do you mean? And what is your basis for this quote. How did you come to realize that "Ronnie Norman has been a misguiding light from the beginning....?" That is a very strong statement that would imply that he has had less than honorable intentions from his first days at First Colony. The email he sent to the congregation would suggest otherwise. If he were intentionally misguiding the congregation it would make little sense to give each and every member an opportunity to share their feelings. Seriously, how do you know what is in Ronnie's heart?

Ronnie and the other leaders have made it very clear to the congregation that they are seeking input from the church body. They have been very accessible and had literally hundreds of conversations with individual members about instrumental music. Thankfully the Eldership of this congregation has the wisdom to seek the input from its members.

I am thankful that we live in a time and place where both sides can voice its own opinion. But your attack on Ronnie seems to be unwarranted, unfair, and ignorant regarding this congregation's apporoach.

Charles


 
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Anonymous
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76.30.94.164

Re: Why?

May 3 2008, 9:56 PM 

Charles,

Thank you for your response. I have been involved with what has happened at several churches, not all are Churches of Christ, and there are some very familiar similarities to what has happened at First Colony Church of Christ. What is happening is a programmed change. There are specific guidelines on how to make changes and when to “back off” the pace of the changes. If you are in the know you will know that specific aspects of the way we do ‘church’ has changed and some changes are still coming and will be rolled out as the congregation can accept the change. When Ronnie started sitting down to do his sermon last year (which is fine), was that due to his health condition or was that because of coaching from an external source? When the children’s classes started having Guitar players sing children’s songs to them while they were in Sunday school and the players quickly exit before the parents picked them up, (Are parents aware what is going on? I wasn’t) was that not a change that the community church has facilitated? If you are interested in what I am suggesting, read the article about what happened to Madison church of Christ. That article was posted in 2002 and the path that man describes is similar to the one First Colony is on.

What I am concerned with is the method and the time line, which suggest an agenda.
One question: How could 28 elders that grew up in the Church of Christ, several were very conservative, agree on overturning such historically controversial issues? This is where I believe the “darkness” exists. I see the Delphi technique being administered. As warm and friendly as surveys and polls of the congregation seem, they have a purpose. I will cut and paste a definition here: If your not familiar with what it is - it is a manipulative method used by Governments, Organizations and Unions to cause a ‘pre-selected outcome' at a meeting, event, or function. Its usage is also implemented in any on line instrument such as a chat room, forum or newsgroup that has 'Moderators.'
Here is how the Delphi technique works (and boy its effective). It is based upon the Hegelian Dialectic of creating ones own opposition in order to manipulate that opposition to a unified consensus. One exposing document from the Education Reporter accurately describes it:

In group settings, the Delphi Technique is an unethical method of achieving consensus on controversial topics. It requires well-trained professionals, known as "facilitators" or "change agents," who deliberately escalate tension among group members, pitting one faction against another to make a preordained viewpoint appear "sensible,” while making opposing views appear ridiculous.

I wish I could explain more, but I would like for you, to investigate it for yourself. A group about church growth has a form of the Delphi technique for it’s seminars on how to grow a church, which is not about Acts 2. When you read about this process many unnerving items will become evident, it was defined by the RAND corp. in the 60’s, but the Oracle of Delphi comes from the Greeks.

I guess you know that many subjects in science, Evolution, global warming and others are not based in fact but are determined through consensus surveys from the experts. Majority rule? A majority would not get on the Ark with Noah, A majority would not leave Sodom or Gomorrah, and a majority crucified Jesus. Be careful agreeing with the majority!

The email has been prolific with one more topic that has been stated by an elder, “our church will be more market driven”. Truly that would not trump a Faith driven church. Please once again Google “Market Driven Church”. A minister from a Bible church in Illinois described it best. I believe the minister’s last name is Gilley. I do not know if the elder is researching what he is saying about ‘market driven’ or if it just a buzz word that has no meaning to him.

Darkness! I think there has been some planning since 1999! Planning that has included deception of a lot of people. A lot of people at church are broken hearted and hurting and somehow changing the way we do a service helps! I think the Bible is speaking to First Colony church in Revelation 3:14. You know the riches people on the earth are not the people that have the most, but the people that need the least.

One last thing, I sat in the audience at Rick Atchley’s church for six years. He could inspire people to get out on a Sunday afternoon for weeks and help widows with their needs—and it was not a church program it was people doing what they felt they needed to do. It was not a habitat for humanity, it was people wanting to develop relationships with each other and work for good. I have witnessed his dynamic, change a great church and turn it downward into what it is now!

 
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Ken Sublett
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66.82.9.49

Deliberate soowing of discord.

May 5 2008, 9:19 PM 

It is a fact that when they begin asking about whether we should add instruments knowing that it will deliberately sow discord and drive away a large fraction of the OWNERS, it is not moral, ethical or Godly. No one asks such a question without intending to do it at whatever the cost.

Most of the congregations set out on a deliberate Hegelian program as "Navigating the winds of change" or a living visual aid of how "to boil a frog" and keep it singing and clapping. It was always planned that it would take at least 10 years to soften up the group by deliberately using instruments with the children, the youth groups and then adding a "musical worship team" which is an even match between blasphemy and ignorance. What's to care if you INTEND to as they would say at Madison and elsewhere "to turn the church into a theater for holy entertainment." These are evil people seemingly working "lying wonders" and they will have to force out lots of the elders before they and be "100% in agreement." It is all a viper bite by the preacher who has demoted the elders into being his "shepherds."

These people have copied the steps out of Mein Kampf and even appeal to Machiavelli about why it takes so long and you must never give up to "steal a nation and become its Prince" or we might say Princess. I assure you that they are all reading off the script handed to them by the NACC and they have been groomed for the purpose: it is not a high compliment that these men are so easily seduced. I have reviewed the important books and lectures by these men and they all deliberately lie about every mention of an instrument in the Bible.

Furthermore, all of their PROOF TEXTS about PSALLO point to older males plucking the harp to seduce a "youth minister" who had been degendered (a cappella, a castrato).

The fatal flaw is that they do not recognize the TWO THREADS running through the Old Testament: the Monarchy which they use as authority was rank Gentile worship because Stephen and others make it clear that "God turned them over to worship the starry host because of musical idolatry at Mount Sinai. Then God gave them kings in His anger and took them away in His anger as any Samuel reader could never miss.

At the same time, the SABBATH (rest) day was set aside as the Qahal, Synagogue or church in the wilderness. This defined the "school of the Bible" and EXCLUDED vocal and instrumental rejoicing which was reserved to signal movements or an attack of the enemy.

I will post some review of the false teachings about Ephesians 5 next. Stan is trying to cook your goose.

 
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Ken Sublett
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66.82.9.49

Stan Cook is Wrong!

May 5 2008, 9:38 PM 

Stan Cook:The best way to know what the scriptures teach is to understand the original Greek language. The main scripture used to refute IM opposition is Ephesians 5:19. Consider this: the part of Ephesians 5:19 where Paul wrote: “…sing and make melody in your hearts…” can be misleading when read from the KJV. The original Greek says: “adontes kai psallontes”. Adontes means “singing”, then “kai” is a conjunction (also used in Acts 2:38 in “repent and [kai] be baptized”) meaning the joining of two separate actions. Obviously repenting and being baptized are not one and the same action, but two separate actions, which is also true in Ephesians 5:19: “singing” plus another action: “psallontes”, meaning to pluck a stringed instrument. By the way, it’s really stretching it to claim that the “plucking” here is plucking the heart strings, or the vocal chords. Therefore, the Christians in the first century, since they understood the original Greek language, would have read that as “Sing and pluck a stringed instrument”.

If the truth be known, there are three actions. First, is SPEAKING and that is directed one to another. The Resources are the Inspired Text.

Both the singING and makING are in the HEART and directed to GOD. Stan wants to translate that as:

Singing and Playing a Harp IN your heart.

Now, Stan, that might be painful. IN the HEART is a PLACE as Johnn 4 makes certain and the action is secret and TO GOD and not FROM a performance crew TO the paying AUDIENCE who pay TOO MUCH to hear always silly sounding singers and poor players: better to steal CDs.

The OBJECT is to hold BIBLE CLASS so we teach, admonish, comfort with Scripture (Rom 15) and glorify God: no one can BE your mediator to "lead you into the presence of God." That smacks of the Abomination of Desolation standing in the Holy Place (podium) Claiming to be Christ Who died to get to be Mediator and "worship leader." Now, here is a little study of the words SPEAK which could have been Hebrew Cantillation which is not TUNEFUL but rhythmic prose.

SPEAK defines the style of presenting the Psalms which were NOT metrical.
Singing AND plucking the heart strings was directed TO GOD.
The parallel in Colossians 3 to deny the INSTRUMENT urge is to "Sing with GRACE in the heart." Both melody and grace were elements of the public teaching style. Psallo has absolutely NO musical content.





Let me say it again with all of the respect these people deserve: they are lying about God and to God because THEY have their own agenda which now allows them to LIE and CHEAT and STEAL and feel justified because "they have a higher use for YOUR property."


    
This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address 72.154.208.112 on Jun 2, 2008 3:58 AM


 
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Ken Sublett
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66.82.9.49

Ronnie Norman part of the Band!

May 5 2008, 10:11 PM 

Ken, why would you say that, "Ronnie Norman has been a misguiding light from the beginning so there is no doubt that he has been warming the waters to boil the frogs."?

Ronnie's name has appeared grouped with all of those who set out with a well-stated agenda to restructure the Church of Christ.

The all use the same language and the same "navigating the winds of change" pattern. When they were beginning to STEAL the church at Oak Hills intending to confiscate the other churches as "daughter churches" they slicked a conservative eldership into letting them hold a how to do it effort. Of course, Lynn Anderson and family have been the dominant leaders in the Oak Hills switch. Here are a few notes where Lynn Anderson and Ronnie Norman etal were describing their SHEPHERDING MOVEMENT and Lynn Anderson makes it clear that it is patterned after Promise Keepers Shepherding which is the Old Cross Roads. That is why the IOCC has been taken into the college meetings and the Tulsa Soulstealing Workshop.

I would guess that Ronnie has a CORE LEADERSHIP IN EXILE just as they did at Madison and elsewhere which have been doing their thingy in dark places. Here is one that comes to mind.

http://www.piney.com/Anderson-Shepherds.html

All recorded history knows that when you want to COMMUNITY CHURCH or Commune your tribe nothing is more powerful than music to BIND the tribe to the DOMINANT LEADER.

No doubt about it: it fits the pattern. I probably have more which I have reviewed. To their utter shame, out of maybe 13,000 congregations they have STOLEN as far as I know the only DEFECTOS are those of the original band. Max follows Chris, Rick follows Max, Mark Henderson follows Rick and now Ronnie follows. Milton Jones who lied cheated and stole the church house of widows in Seattle I invested 18 years in may have been the first LEMMING off the shore.

 
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Anonymous
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76.30.94.164

Directing elders and Shepherding elders

May 7 2008, 12:20 AM 

Mr. Sublett,

I appreciate your knowledge of the bible and the spiritual matters that are affecting the Church. I would ask if you have any information about "church elders" and the role they play in the church, please direct or post it at this site.

If you have a chance, please go to the First Colony Church of Christ Web page and look at the elders page. The elders page will be found by selecting leadership and then selecting elders. There will be found the elders listed with their pictures. Next to the elders name there will be an asterisk, notice that the asterisk is not footnoted. I happen to know that the asterisk denote the directing elders and the rest are shepherding elders. Ronnie Norman is head of the eldership. Is this a pattern at the other corporate churchs or is this a characteristic of some other church denomination? I am curious as to why the eldership structure has been set this way. To me this structure would make politics part of the eldership, in that a discontented Shepherding elder would want to move to a loftier position as directing elder. I have asked an elder about this and I understood him to say, that it was a better way to run the church.

By the way will on that front page will be the members survey on the service. It ask members opinion about a Instumental Music service.

Thank you,

Robert

 
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Ray
(no login)
75.53.152.70

Directing elders and Shepherding elders

May 7 2008, 6:24 PM 

Note to Anonymous. Ronnie Norman is not head of the eldership. He is not even amoung the Directing Elders. He is one of the Shepherding Elders, who work directly with the deacons and staff. One of the Directing Elders serves as an Elder Chairman for their meeting and comunucations. The * is described in each entry and you are correct that it denotes one of the Directing Elders. For the most part, these are the godly men who have been elders the longest. As for this site, when I see "piney" or "sublett" I can count on that mening three things: He doesn't speak for God, for the congregation he is not a member of but still is attacking, or for the principles of the Restioration Movement. He is simply a divisive and meddlesome agitator.

 
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Anonymous
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76.30.94.164

Re: Directing elders and Shepherding elders

May 7 2008, 9:57 PM 

Ray,

Thank you for your response! I appreciate you and other members who seek the truth in love. I grew up in the Church of Christ and I have never witnessed what is happening at First Colony. I have been at a Church of Christ where the minister started speaking in "tongues" and most of us just dismissed him. What I have not seen is the complete change of culture that we are experiencing. It is hard to believe that there has been a complete walk of faith, without outside sources consulting Ronnie and the elders through out these changes, which the congregation has been experiencing. I would point to the DVD produce with Rick Atchtley. Rick is a well known consultant, who has as much to say about what is happening, as Ken Sublett does. There has been meddling that the congregation has not been privileged to know, that the leadership has allowed and possibly engaged. If the information is true what Ken Sublett says Ronnie has been involved with, I am afraid we have had a snake in our midst. The Elders will have to answer to God for that, about the way they have been spending the monies the flock has been contributing to God’s work and they will answer for the direction they are taking this church. I am not judging them, God knows their hearts, and I do not. Yet I will invetigate until I find the truth. I can only pray their example leads us to a closer walk with him.

Robert

 
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Ray
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76.245.209.226

Re: Directing elders and Shepherding elders

May 8 2008, 5:19 PM 

What Ken has to say is as far from the truth as the east is from the west. Just a glance as his piney.com website proves that there is very little in God's Kingdom and the churches of Christ that Ken approves of.

 
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Anonymous
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76.30.94.164

Re: Directing elders and Shepherding elders

May 9 2008, 12:11 AM 

Ray,

Except for this website and piney.com, I would never have known who Ken was. At least he tries to answer quetions and I will respect him. I am searching for some answers, to some of the questions, I have about what is happening. I do not get answers from First Colony, in fact I get propaganda. I get why we need to do what we are doing from a DVD from a minister from another church. Friends of mine have approached elders about what is going on and they have been told that "maybe you should find some other place to worship". Why can't our elders be more forthcoming? Other than Ronnie have you heard one speak to the assembly about any of this? Even in those selected meetings, people were suppressed from speaking what was on their hearts. You have got to believe there is some deceit going on!

Robert

 
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Ray
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76.245.209.34

Directing elders and Shepherding elders

May 17 2008, 10:47 AM 

There is not deceipt at all. I have talked to many of the elders one-on-one. Most I have known for over 20 years. I have been very open about my opinions. They have been very open about theirs. The only deceipt I have ever seen is from Ken. He is not interested in truth. Ken is not intersted in what God has to say. Ken is only interested Ken, dividing one brother from another, stiriing up strife, and in promoting his propaganda and his slander of good Christian men and a strong and faithful Church of Christ.

 
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Robert
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76.30.94.164

Re: Directing elders and Shepherding elders

May 17 2008, 3:51 PM 

Ray,

Ask Ronnie Norman when he decided to add instrumental music to the First Colony church and ask him how he went about convincing others it needed to be done. Also if we are an "independent non-denominational" church(as is stated on the outside of the bulletin we get each Sunday)why are we using the Community church teaching materials? Other ministers in Houston know exactly what is going on, because they attended the same seminars, and they know the extreme degree in which First Colony is taking the advice from these consultants. As for the elders, they cannot see where we have come from and where we are? Yes, the change has been extremely slow, but at this point, there should be a realization that we are not who we say we are!

By the way, do you know the people that have been involved in this changing experience have been taught to avoid public forums? I would be surprised if any of them would respond to this chat board with any explanations, other than just revealing observations!

 
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Ray
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76.245.209.34

Directing elders and Shepherding elders

May 17 2008, 5:11 PM 

Robert,

I have laready asked Ronnie and many of the elders. And I was told. It was not Ronnie's idea. It has been an idea that has been discussed by many for over 10 years. Ken has so many facts wrong that Ken is a joke. He is divisive and is not of God. The only reason I have come here is to try to set the record straight for those who have swallowed Ken's poison. Just look at Galatians and answer honestly which fruit describes Ken and which fruit describes First Colony:

Ken's fruit - The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

First Colony's fruit - But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires.

Ken's divisiveness has never led a soul to God. First Colony has led countless souls to God.

Yo may not agree with what Fist Colny has decided to do. I am not happy about it either. But I know these men and they are honest, truthful, starightforward, and serving God and Him only. Ken has none of these Christ-like traits.

 
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Rick
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208.180.101.172

Milton Jones

February 1 2009, 6:18 AM 

Can you please give ma any information you can share about Milton Jones but please give me facts to back it up. He is now our preacher and we are having problems and I would like to know more about him. Thank you

 
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Anonymous
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207.65.228.100

Milton Jones

February 1 2009, 9:38 PM 

I am Kenneth Sublett, Hohenwald, Tn and served as a teacher, deacon and elder in Seattle and PROCURED Milton Jones.

In 1977 I lived in Seattle Washington and we established a goal to begin a campus ministry at UW. At that time we could identify about half a dozen members of the church of Christ out of maybe 35,000.

We shopped around and got a proposal from Milton Jones at who wanted to bring an exodus group to Seattle. We flew down and looked him over and it looked like a sure bet. We didn't know at the time that his master's education was at an instrumental college.

Milton was hired as a campus minister and as far as I could determine had no preaching skils: when he did from then onward there was no Biblical content. He began a course he had written called VANGUARD and little did we grasp that Milton may have been the first to adopt the infiltrate and divert method.

I left Seattle in 1980 having served as a deacon and then elder and moved back to Tennessee. His wife is a skilled musician and my teen daughters saw the lust to perform before we left. They came to Nashville and took back the skills of the ZOE group (Zoe being another name for Lucifer) and the material of Rubel Shelly and the Jubilee.

Milton defected to a small Christian Church school and slowly integrated them and their leaders into the Northwest Church of Christ.

While being on the teaching list at a large church I often had to explain Seattle to people who visited and were wowed out of their pants: they had removed the Lord's Table to give moving room for their Musical Worship Team. That sowed discord and I began to have lots of e-mails and two long distance visits. Since then I have provided RECOVERY teaching for the plague which spread to other churches but was soon smothered.

In 1997 I had my pages up and going to help many religious groups defend what is really a cult based on lying, cheating, threatening and stealing the church houses of widows. They later added instruments with the wife as Musical Worship Minister.

Milton claimed to have a deal he could not refuse and left Seattle but I am not sure that he wasn't asked to leave. I noticed that he had a friend in a church which seemed to fit his brand.

Like all of those trying to impose instruments on non-instrumental churches they hare hand fed by people out of the NACC who has written WHITE PAPERS used by the 10 or so churches they have stolen. They deliberately lie about all of the Bible and known historic literature.

Milton studied the old Crossroads movement and the new bandits led by Lynn Anderson is preaching a brand of SHEPHERDING which is identical to the Crossroads or ICOC cult.

You can bet that by the time you see the smoke there is lots of undergraound fires set by stealth.

Life members were not permitted to even discuss adding instruments and a deacon from about 1962 left for another congregation. They used a lawyer and told the members that they could be financially liable under the charge of being SECTARIAN if they did not change their historic bylaws outlawing instruments. They used a lawyer to rewrite it and probably did a forced, Moscow type vote to change it.

He agreed to DEFEND adding instruments but outlalwed anyone recording it: I got a poor copy anyway and have some old, rough notes proving that all of the lie by taking the CURSE of the Law and telling people that "God commanded instrumental praise for the church and we MUST NOT be disobedient."

http://www.piney.com/MailSerLucian.html

http://www.piney.com/MailSerMuPro.html

http://www.piney.com/MailSerMuPsallo.html

http://www.piney.com/MailSerMuPro2.html

These are rough and I will try to clean them up.
Feel free to e-mail me in confidence

Kenneth Sublett
blituri@hughes.net

I think you must have a leader who is a co-conspirator and you should act fast.

I have reviewed most of those who were manipulated by the NACC and they all use the same old data published by the Christian Church when they sected out of the Disciples from 1927 to 1971.

 
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...........................THE BOOK

What Happened At the Madison Church of Christ?


There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

To even start to understand whats happening here, you must read the background materials in the first of the book.

This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our web site; http://www.concernedmembers.com/madison

Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)
 

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