I just received an email from a concerned friend at church who was telling me that there was going to be a meeting explaining how instrumental music was going to be added. May 4th is the target date. The note said that this information needed to be on the "QT" because the congregation did not know this was about to happen. There will be a meeting later this month and a DVD presentation by Rick Atchley. The minister at First Colony is not as dynamic a speaker as Rick Atchley and needs help to get this message across, because the majority of the congregation has already heard about this instrumental music service. The shepherds have become sheep! I am curious as to why the darkness! Bring this out into the light if this is good and just!. John 3 states that evil is afraid to be found out and that is why they stay in the dark.

The email said that the congregation would be completing a brief survey--I guess to determine a consensus? Is this the Oracle of Dephi technique being used on good people?

This email was sent to the FCCC members mailing list on 4/25/08:

This Sunday I Start A Two Week Series Called “Music Matters” And We Will Ask For Your Feedback Next Sunday, May 4… I plan to talk very openly about our musical heritage in the churches of Christ (much of which is so very positive). We’ll bathe this discussion in the light of scripture and ask for your prayers. Last summer & fall, all the elders began to study, reflect, discuss and pray about asking the church to consider offering well-done, tasteful, live instrumentation in one of our worship services and if so, when should that service be offered. By “well-done” I mean a service where the instrumentation complements rather than overwhelms and where participatory singing remains a high value.

Bottom line: all the elders felt fine about allowing a service with live instrumentation (but only if well-done and only if a strong exclusively acappella presence continues in other services) and we’ve even talked about some possible specifics with one another and our deacons. However, the reality is we are not married to anything specific regarding dates and times. We have certainly given this some thought but nothing is set in stone. We are not even married to offering an instrumental service. But we are married to a clear and open process where we ask the entire church to consider the possibility of live instrumentation in one of the worship services of our church family. We ask you to consider this through a process of evaluating scripture, praying for God’s leading, considering one another, and providing feedback.

Specifically, on Sunday May 4 we will ask you to fill out a brief survey telling us your perspectives regarding “church music”. That survey will also be available on-line and here’s what it will do: it will help us know more accurately where we are as a church family and what you think. When it comes to even considering any kind of transition in our church culture, our elders will move slowly & gently and will provide time for study, evaluation, prayer and dialog. I’m looking forward to presenting these two messages and I hope you’ll be encouraged.

Is this the church?

Ronnie Norman is our Senior Minister. Ronnie's gifts of preaching and providing leadership to the church family continue to be a catalyst for effective ministry. Serving the church since 1985, Ronnie is the only Senior Minister in the history of First Colony..

http://www.firstcolonychurch.org/

Ronnie Norman has been a misguiding light from the beginning so there is no doubt that he has been warming the waters to boil the frogs.

They ALL read off the same script prepared for them by the NACC who has used them as Judas Goats. There is not a jot or tittle of truth in Rick Atchley's "white paper filled with black lies." My reviews of Rick Atchley are tentative but I have reviewed the REST of the ORIGINAL BAND who intended to RESTRUCTURE all churches of Christ but have had to settle with perverting their own congregation.

http://www.piney.com/Rick-Atchley-Music.html

Here is the best summary of the Old Testament reviewing Terry Rush:

http://www.piney.com/Terry.Rush.Review.html

There are TWO THREADS from Genesis to Revelation:

The PAGAN thread: The Israelits fell into musical idolatry at Mount Sinai. God turned them over to worship the starry host and IMPOSED the law to regulate them until the captivity and death sentence was carried out. ALL of the "proof texts" they use is to DRAG YOU back beyond the cross.

The SPIRITUAL thread: However, the Spirit OF Christ commanded the Qahal, synagogue or church in the wilderness.
It was INCLUSIVE of resting (from Ronnies), reading and rehearsing the Word of God.
It was EXCLUSIVE by outlawing an assembly with "vocal or instrumental rejoicing.

That is because it was always a SCHOOL OF THE BIBLE to quarantine the godly Isralites from the pagan clergy.
The Spirit OF Christ spoke ONLY through the prophets all of whom radically condemn musical instruments as MARKS of people who refused to listen to God. I suggest the BOAST of Senior Minister having first fired all of the vocational deacons and USED deaconesses, proves that the ELDERS have been intimidated into going along to get along.

IT IS ALL, 1OO% LYING TO GOD AND ABOUT GOD.

Because you will be listening to Rick Atchley's material you need to alert people to the fact that Rick is terminally ignorant about the context and story line he quotes or he INTENTIONALLY plans to lead you into the same Babylonianism the Israelites were cursed with especially in and around the temple.

Because the end-times promises a FEMALE and EFFEMINATE take over you should be aware that:

Revelation warns of the Mother of Harlots Revelation 17

1. SHE uses "lusted after fruits" as

2. Slick and lying preachers, singers and the same instruments Lucifer--the singing and harp playing prostitute--brought with him/her/itself into the garden of Eden.

3. John calls them SORCERERS (Revelation 18) as indeed ALL of the instrument terms are rooted in vileness and were never used except for MIND CONTROL.

Any Bible literate person knows the MARK and I doubt that this small band of merry men do not know that they are agents of a bad hostile takeover.

If you have any written material let me know: I will not reveal names

piney@piney.com

They will or have tried to intimidate you into silence: don't listen, it is YOUR property and YOUR church and human family they INTENTIONALLY intend to divide hoping they can fill your property with their own kind which always had ONE PERSONA. You are the PAYMASTER and the preacher is a HIRELING: exercise your rights and confront him. Do NOT flee: that is what they want the owners to do. Oppose Him, do mailings to the members, do NOT feed his face because there is no LAW OF GIVING for such vileness.

They have spent more than a decade ORGANIZING behind your backs: do not let them turn your school of the
Bible into a "theater for holy entertainment." Their condescending to an a capella assembly is NOT for long and because musical machines in the face of a Holy God was always vile, your whole property will be defiled. Let them if they have minimal human ethics GO and build their own property or meet with a Christian Church and see if THEY will tolerate an NON-MACHINE worship. Do it: this is YOUR chance to as WWYDWJ.

Refuting The Anti-Instrumental Doctrine of The Church of Christ


Many Churches of Christ have made the issue of instrumental music (IM) paramount, almost on a level equal to the Gospel. Yet the traditional teaching on this subject by most Churches of Christ is false doctrine, pure and simple! Space doesn’t permit a lengthy article that I wrote on the subject a few years ago, so here’s a condensed version.


Refuting the “No New Testament Authorization” Doctrine

The best way to know what the scriptures teach is to understand the original Greek language. The main scripture used to refute IM opposition is Ephesians 5:19. Consider this: the part of Ephesians 5:19 where Paul wrote: “…sing and make melody in your hearts…” can be misleading when read from the KJV. The original Greek says: “adontes kai psallontes”. Adontes means “singing”, then “kai” is a conjunction (also used in Acts 2:38 in “repent and [kai] be baptized”) meaning the joining of two separate actions. Obviously repenting and being baptized are not one and the same action, but two separate actions, which is also true in Ephesians 5:19: “singing” plus another action: “psallontes”, meaning to pluck a stringed instrument. By the way, it’s really stretching it to claim that the “plucking” here is plucking the heart strings, or the vocal chords. Therefore, the Christians in the first century, since they understood the original Greek language, would have read that as “Sing and pluck a stringed instrument”. (The MacArthur Study Bible also supports this understanding of this passage). But what do we do about the “in your hearts” part? Again, returning to the original Greek, it means to put your heart into those two actions. Now whether this is even referring to a worship assembly or not, whatever the case, they would have understood it to mean to do both actions as one praises God whether in private, personal worship, or in worship with others.


Refuting that the “Psalms Were Part of the Old Law" Doctrine

The Psalms may have been written while the Old Law was in effect, but they were not a part of the Law that was given to Moses (which was done away with). In Deuteronomy 31:24-26a, it says: “After Moses finished writing in a book the words of this law from beginning to end, he gave this command to the Levites who carried the ark of the covenant of the Lord: ‘Take this Book of the Law and place it beside the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God’…”.

The Old Law never commanded or suggested using instrumental music, yet David stated in the Psalms that it, along with dancing was among the ways people were to praise God. (See Psalm 150). Now think: as harsh as the Old Law was, if it had been something God would oppose, since He had not commanded it in The Law, you can bet your boots they would have been struck dead for doing an “unauthorized act of worship”, but they were not! Therefore, since the Psalms were not a part of The Old Law (Law of Moses) that was “nailed to the cross”, it’s obvious that even the first century disciples would not have considered it an act that would have ended. The use of instrumental music in praise to God would have come naturally to those believers since that’s what they had been familiar with. Since the burnt offerings and incense were a part of the Old Law, they would have known that those laws had been done away with. So the argument that “if someone is going to use instrumental music, then they have to have burnt offerings“, is faulty at best.

Robert and Ken,

Clearly there are at least two sides to the issue of instrumental worship. One side says it is wrong and forbidden either directly or indirectly in the Bible. The other side disagrees and feels that it should be up to each congregation to decide whether or not to have some form of instrumental worship. Hopefully we can agree on that.

It seems clear that the First Colony Church of Christ is only exploring the idea of using instruments to quote the email sent to the entire congregation

"We have certainly given this some thought but nothing is set in stone. We are not even married to offering an instrumental service. But we are married to a clear and open process where we ask the entire church to consider the possibility of live instrumentation in one of the worship services of our church family."

Why would you, Robert, say "I am curious as to why the darkness! Bring this out into the light if this is good and just!. John 3 states that evil is afraid to be found out and that is why they stay in the dark."?

I read the same email you did. (The one that asked the deacons to keep from spreading the news) The reason is that the Elders wanted to share this with all of the church leaders and seek their questions and comments before it was discussed with the congregation as a whole. In a church body and in all walks of life, leaders sometimes choose to seek input before implementing changes. It makes sense to do that and it makes sense to ask that those who you told early to "sit" on that information until all decisions have been made. By the way, many of the original ideas and implementations were changed as a result of these leader meetings.

Another quote from the email,

"Specifically, on Sunday May 4 we will ask you to fill out a brief survey telling us your perspectives regarding “church music”. That survey will also be available on-line and here’s what it will do: it will help us know more accurately where we are as a church family and what you think."

It clearly appears that the Church leadership, including Ronnie Norman, is seeking input from the membership before a decision has been made. It goes directly against your comment about this taking place in "darkness."

Also Robert, you said that "The minister at First Colony is not as dynamic a speaker as Rick Atchley and needs help to get this message across, because the majority of the congregation has already heard about this instrumental music service."

When did you decide that Ronnie is less dynamic than Rick? How did you decide this? What are you basing this on? Frankly, it just sounds mean! Rick's DVD series is being offered to the church members to provide additional information about the topic of instrumental music. It is not being done to shore-up Ronnie's inadequacies.

Ken, why would you say that, "Ronnie Norman has been a misguiding light from the beginning so there is no doubt that he has been warming the waters to boil the frogs."?

What do you mean? And what is your basis for this quote. How did you come to realize that "Ronnie Norman has been a misguiding light from the beginning....?" That is a very strong statement that would imply that he has had less than honorable intentions from his first days at First Colony. The email he sent to the congregation would suggest otherwise. If he were intentionally misguiding the congregation it would make little sense to give each and every member an opportunity to share their feelings. Seriously, how do you know what is in Ronnie's heart?

Ronnie and the other leaders have made it very clear to the congregation that they are seeking input from the church body. They have been very accessible and had literally hundreds of conversations with individual members about instrumental music. Thankfully the Eldership of this congregation has the wisdom to seek the input from its members.

I am thankful that we live in a time and place where both sides can voice its own opinion. But your attack on Ronnie seems to be unwarranted, unfair, and ignorant regarding this congregation's apporoach.

Charles

Charles,

Thank you for your response. I have been involved with what has happened at several churches, not all are Churches of Christ, and there are some very familiar similarities to what has happened at First Colony Church of Christ. What is happening is a programmed change. There are specific guidelines on how to make changes and when to “back off” the pace of the changes. If you are in the know you will know that specific aspects of the way we do ‘church’ has changed and some changes are still coming and will be rolled out as the congregation can accept the change. When Ronnie started sitting down to do his sermon last year (which is fine), was that due to his health condition or was that because of coaching from an external source? When the children’s classes started having Guitar players sing children’s songs to them while they were in Sunday school and the players quickly exit before the parents picked them up, (Are parents aware what is going on? I wasn’t) was that not a change that the community church has facilitated? If you are interested in what I am suggesting, read the article about what happened to Madison church of Christ. That article was posted in 2002 and the path that man describes is similar to the one First Colony is on.

What I am concerned with is the method and the time line, which suggest an agenda.
One question: How could 28 elders that grew up in the Church of Christ, several were very conservative, agree on overturning such historically controversial issues? This is where I believe the “darkness” exists. I see the Delphi technique being administered. As warm and friendly as surveys and polls of the congregation seem, they have a purpose. I will cut and paste a definition here: If your not familiar with what it is - it is a manipulative method used by Governments, Organizations and Unions to cause a ‘pre-selected outcome' at a meeting, event, or function. Its usage is also implemented in any on line instrument such as a chat room, forum or newsgroup that has 'Moderators.'
Here is how the Delphi technique works (and boy its effective). It is based upon the Hegelian Dialectic of creating ones own opposition in order to manipulate that opposition to a unified consensus. One exposing document from the Education Reporter accurately describes it:

In group settings, the Delphi Technique is an unethical method of achieving consensus on controversial topics. It requires well-trained professionals, known as "facilitators" or "change agents," who deliberately escalate tension among group members, pitting one faction against another to make a preordained viewpoint appear "sensible,” while making opposing views appear ridiculous.

I wish I could explain more, but I would like for you, to investigate it for yourself. A group about church growth has a form of the Delphi technique for it’s seminars on how to grow a church, which is not about Acts 2. When you read about this process many unnerving items will become evident, it was defined by the RAND corp. in the 60’s, but the Oracle of Delphi comes from the Greeks.

I guess you know that many subjects in science, Evolution, global warming and others are not based in fact but are determined through consensus surveys from the experts. Majority rule? A majority would not get on the Ark with Noah, A majority would not leave Sodom or Gomorrah, and a majority crucified Jesus. Be careful agreeing with the majority!

The email has been prolific with one more topic that has been stated by an elder, “our church will be more market driven”. Truly that would not trump a Faith driven church. Please once again Google “Market Driven Church”. A minister from a Bible church in Illinois described it best. I believe the minister’s last name is Gilley. I do not know if the elder is researching what he is saying about ‘market driven’ or if it just a buzz word that has no meaning to him.

Darkness! I think there has been some planning since 1999! Planning that has included deception of a lot of people. A lot of people at church are broken hearted and hurting and somehow changing the way we do a service helps! I think the Bible is speaking to First Colony church in Revelation 3:14. You know the riches people on the earth are not the people that have the most, but the people that need the least.

One last thing, I sat in the audience at Rick Atchley’s church for six years. He could inspire people to get out on a Sunday afternoon for weeks and help widows with their needs—and it was not a church program it was people doing what they felt they needed to do. It was not a habitat for humanity, it was people wanting to develop relationships with each other and work for good. I have witnessed his dynamic, change a great church and turn it downward into what it is now!

It is a fact that when they begin asking about whether we should add instruments knowing that it will deliberately sow discord and drive away a large fraction of the OWNERS, it is not moral, ethical or Godly. No one asks such a question without intending to do it at whatever the cost.

Most of the congregations set out on a deliberate Hegelian program as "Navigating the winds of change" or a living visual aid of how "to boil a frog" and keep it singing and clapping. It was always planned that it would take at least 10 years to soften up the group by deliberately using instruments with the children, the youth groups and then adding a "musical worship team" which is an even match between blasphemy and ignorance. What's to care if you INTEND to as they would say at Madison and elsewhere "to turn the church into a theater for holy entertainment." These are evil people seemingly working "lying wonders" and they will have to force out lots of the elders before they and be "100% in agreement." It is all a viper bite by the preacher who has demoted the elders into being his "shepherds."

These people have copied the steps out of Mein Kampf and even appeal to Machiavelli about why it takes so long and you must never give up to "steal a nation and become its Prince" or we might say Princess. I assure you that they are all reading off the script handed to them by the NACC and they have been groomed for the purpose: it is not a high compliment that these men are so easily seduced. I have reviewed the important books and lectures by these men and they all deliberately lie about every mention of an instrument in the Bible.

Furthermore, all of their PROOF TEXTS about PSALLO point to older males plucking the harp to seduce a "youth minister" who had been degendered (a cappella, a castrato).

The fatal flaw is that they do not recognize the TWO THREADS running through the Old Testament: the Monarchy which they use as authority was rank Gentile worship because Stephen and others make it clear that "God turned them over to worship the starry host because of musical idolatry at Mount Sinai. Then God gave them kings in His anger and took them away in His anger as any Samuel reader could never miss.

At the same time, the SABBATH (rest) day was set aside as the Qahal, Synagogue or church in the wilderness. This defined the "school of the Bible" and EXCLUDED vocal and instrumental rejoicing which was reserved to signal movements or an attack of the enemy.

I will post some review of the false teachings about Ephesians 5 next. Stan is trying to cook your goose.

Stan Cook:The best way to know what the scriptures teach is to understand the original Greek language. The main scripture used to refute IM opposition is Ephesians 5:19. Consider this: the part of Ephesians 5:19 where Paul wrote: “…sing and make melody in your hearts…” can be misleading when read from the KJV. The original Greek says: “adontes kai psallontes”. Adontes means “singing”, then “kai” is a conjunction (also used in Acts 2:38 in “repent and [kai] be baptized”) meaning the joining of two separate actions. Obviously repenting and being baptized are not one and the same action, but two separate actions, which is also true in Ephesians 5:19: “singing” plus another action: “psallontes”, meaning to pluck a stringed instrument. By the way, it’s really stretching it to claim that the “plucking” here is plucking the heart strings, or the vocal chords. Therefore, the Christians in the first century, since they understood the original Greek language, would have read that as “Sing and pluck a stringed instrument”.

If the truth be known, there are three actions. First, is SPEAKING and that is directed one to another. The Resources are the Inspired Text.

Both the singING and makING are in the HEART and directed to GOD. Stan wants to translate that as:

Singing and Playing a Harp IN your heart.

Now, Stan, that might be painful. IN the HEART is a PLACE as Johnn 4 makes certain and the action is secret and TO GOD and not FROM a performance crew TO the paying AUDIENCE who pay TOO MUCH to hear always silly sounding singers and poor players: better to steal CDs.

The OBJECT is to hold BIBLE CLASS so we teach, admonish, comfort with Scripture (Rom 15) and glorify God: no one can BE your mediator to "lead you into the presence of God." That smacks of the Abomination of Desolation standing in the Holy Place (podium) Claiming to be Christ Who died to get to be Mediator and "worship leader." Now, here is a little study of the words SPEAK which could have been Hebrew Cantillation which is not TUNEFUL but rhythmic prose.

SPEAK defines the style of presenting the Psalms which were NOT metrical.
Singing AND plucking the heart strings was directed TO GOD.
The parallel in Colossians 3 to deny the INSTRUMENT urge is to "Sing with GRACE in the heart." Both melody and grace were elements of the public teaching style. Psallo has absolutely NO musical content.





Let me say it again with all of the respect these people deserve: they are lying about God and to God because THEY have their own agenda which now allows them to LIE and CHEAT and STEAL and feel justified because "they have a higher use for YOUR property."

Ken, why would you say that, "Ronnie Norman has been a misguiding light from the beginning so there is no doubt that he has been warming the waters to boil the frogs."?

Ronnie's name has appeared grouped with all of those who set out with a well-stated agenda to restructure the Church of Christ.

The all use the same language and the same "navigating the winds of change" pattern. When they were beginning to STEAL the church at Oak Hills intending to confiscate the other churches as "daughter churches" they slicked a conservative eldership into letting them hold a how to do it effort. Of course, Lynn Anderson and family have been the dominant leaders in the Oak Hills switch. Here are a few notes where Lynn Anderson and Ronnie Norman etal were describing their SHEPHERDING MOVEMENT and Lynn Anderson makes it clear that it is patterned after Promise Keepers Shepherding which is the Old Cross Roads. That is why the IOCC has been taken into the college meetings and the Tulsa Soulstealing Workshop.

I would guess that Ronnie has a CORE LEADERSHIP IN EXILE just as they did at Madison and elsewhere which have been doing their thingy in dark places. Here is one that comes to mind.

http://www.piney.com/Anderson-Shepherds.html

All recorded history knows that when you want to COMMUNITY CHURCH or Commune your tribe nothing is more powerful than music to BIND the tribe to the DOMINANT LEADER.

No doubt about it: it fits the pattern. I probably have more which I have reviewed. To their utter shame, out of maybe 13,000 congregations they have STOLEN as far as I know the only DEFECTOS are those of the original band. Max follows Chris, Rick follows Max, Mark Henderson follows Rick and now Ronnie follows. Milton Jones who lied cheated and stole the church house of widows in Seattle I invested 18 years in may have been the first LEMMING off the shore.

Mr. Sublett,

I appreciate your knowledge of the bible and the spiritual matters that are affecting the Church. I would ask if you have any information about "church elders" and the role they play in the church, please direct or post it at this site.

If you have a chance, please go to the First Colony Church of Christ Web page and look at the elders page. The elders page will be found by selecting leadership and then selecting elders. There will be found the elders listed with their pictures. Next to the elders name there will be an asterisk, notice that the asterisk is not footnoted. I happen to know that the asterisk denote the directing elders and the rest are shepherding elders. Ronnie Norman is head of the eldership. Is this a pattern at the other corporate churchs or is this a characteristic of some other church denomination? I am curious as to why the eldership structure has been set this way. To me this structure would make politics part of the eldership, in that a discontented Shepherding elder would want to move to a loftier position as directing elder. I have asked an elder about this and I understood him to say, that it was a better way to run the church.

By the way will on that front page will be the members survey on the service. It ask members opinion about a Instumental Music service.

Thank you,

Robert

Note to Anonymous. Ronnie Norman is not head of the eldership. He is not even amoung the Directing Elders. He is one of the Shepherding Elders, who work directly with the deacons and staff. One of the Directing Elders serves as an Elder Chairman for their meeting and comunucations. The * is described in each entry and you are correct that it denotes one of the Directing Elders. For the most part, these are the godly men who have been elders the longest. As for this site, when I see "piney" or "sublett" I can count on that mening three things: He doesn't speak for God, for the congregation he is not a member of but still is attacking, or for the principles of the Restioration Movement. He is simply a divisive and meddlesome agitator.

Ray,

Thank you for your response! I appreciate you and other members who seek the truth in love. I grew up in the Church of Christ and I have never witnessed what is happening at First Colony. I have been at a Church of Christ where the minister started speaking in "tongues" and most of us just dismissed him. What I have not seen is the complete change of culture that we are experiencing. It is hard to believe that there has been a complete walk of faith, without outside sources consulting Ronnie and the elders through out these changes, which the congregation has been experiencing. I would point to the DVD produce with Rick Atchtley. Rick is a well known consultant, who has as much to say about what is happening, as Ken Sublett does. There has been meddling that the congregation has not been privileged to know, that the leadership has allowed and possibly engaged. If the information is true what Ken Sublett says Ronnie has been involved with, I am afraid we have had a snake in our midst. The Elders will have to answer to God for that, about the way they have been spending the monies the flock has been contributing to God’s work and they will answer for the direction they are taking this church. I am not judging them, God knows their hearts, and I do not. Yet I will invetigate until I find the truth. I can only pray their example leads us to a closer walk with him.

Robert

What Ken has to say is as far from the truth as the east is from the west. Just a glance as his piney.com website proves that there is very little in God's Kingdom and the churches of Christ that Ken approves of.

Ray,

Except for this website and piney.com, I would never have known who Ken was. At least he tries to answer quetions and I will respect him. I am searching for some answers, to some of the questions, I have about what is happening. I do not get answers from First Colony, in fact I get propaganda. I get why we need to do what we are doing from a DVD from a minister from another church. Friends of mine have approached elders about what is going on and they have been told that "maybe you should find some other place to worship". Why can't our elders be more forthcoming? Other than Ronnie have you heard one speak to the assembly about any of this? Even in those selected meetings, people were suppressed from speaking what was on their hearts. You have got to believe there is some deceit going on!

Robert

There is not deceipt at all. I have talked to many of the elders one-on-one. Most I have known for over 20 years. I have been very open about my opinions. They have been very open about theirs. The only deceipt I have ever seen is from Ken. He is not interested in truth. Ken is not intersted in what God has to say. Ken is only interested Ken, dividing one brother from another, stiriing up strife, and in promoting his propaganda and his slander of good Christian men and a strong and faithful Church of Christ.

Ray,

Ask Ronnie Norman when he decided to add instrumental music to the First Colony church and ask him how he went about convincing others it needed to be done. Also if we are an "independent non-denominational" church(as is stated on the outside of the bulletin we get each Sunday)why are we using the Community church teaching materials? Other ministers in Houston know exactly what is going on, because they attended the same seminars, and they know the extreme degree in which First Colony is taking the advice from these consultants. As for the elders, they cannot see where we have come from and where we are? Yes, the change has been extremely slow, but at this point, there should be a realization that we are not who we say we are!

By the way, do you know the people that have been involved in this changing experience have been taught to avoid public forums? I would be surprised if any of them would respond to this chat board with any explanations, other than just revealing observations!

Robert,

I have laready asked Ronnie and many of the elders. And I was told. It was not Ronnie's idea. It has been an idea that has been discussed by many for over 10 years. Ken has so many facts wrong that Ken is a joke. He is divisive and is not of God. The only reason I have come here is to try to set the record straight for those who have swallowed Ken's poison. Just look at Galatians and answer honestly which fruit describes Ken and which fruit describes First Colony:

Ken's fruit - The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

First Colony's fruit - But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires.

Ken's divisiveness has never led a soul to God. First Colony has led countless souls to God.

Yo may not agree with what Fist Colny has decided to do. I am not happy about it either. But I know these men and they are honest, truthful, starightforward, and serving God and Him only. Ken has none of these Christ-like traits.

Here is how they turn the trick: This is so vile I have trouble believing that even Satan could pull it off without some real trouble in river city. But, Paul warned the Thessalonian church.

You will notice that Ministry Team is at the TOP.

Ronnie Norman is our Senior Minister. Ronnie's gifts of preaching and providing leadership to the church family continue to be a catalyst for effective ministry. Serving the church since 1985, Ronnie is the only Senior Minister in the history of First Colony. 1985 is about the time a small band of merry men concocted their plan and made masterful use of Machiavelli and Mein Kampf. Ronnie Norman's name has been spread far and wide as part of this notorious band.

Elders:

Ronnie Norman became a Directing elder in 2004

A nasty conflict of interest

Dates they became elders: 2007, 2005, 2001, 1992, 2007, 2007, *1996, 2005, 2007, *1987, 2007, 2005, *1991, 2007, 2001, 2007, ronnie 2004, 2005, 2005, 2005, *1991, 2007, *1991, 2005, 2005, 2005, 2007,

So ALL of the DIRECTING ELDER are Pre-Diversion.

You have a brand new CROP and THAT is part of the Purpose Driven scam.

Shepherding elders have been well defined by men like Rubel Shelly as SHEPHERDING THE MINISTER "who by training and charisma is best suited to be THE leader." By working with the deacons and staff you can see that you have been transistion from a Scriptural church of Christ where the elders are the TOTAL overseers and feeders of the flock who are named along with the deacons. This was charted by Rick Atchley using the PYRAMID because the NEW INSTITUTE is a virtual ziggurat or Tower of Babel where the agent of the gods sits up on top where the collection plate is located. The slaves sing and play instruments on their way to "lay by in store" being told that they will meet the gods or angels ascending and descending. The Mother of Harlots lives again.

Lynn Anderson used some slick willie pressure to get a very conservative eldership to permit him to hold

http://www.piney.com/Anderson-Shepherds.html

This was San Antonio June 19-21, 2003, so you can see that an OVERPOWERING crop of new elders undoubtedly infused by Ronnie Norman was just in time to "start boiling the frogs" because deception takes time and lots of planning. The SHEPHERDING elders will be the ones in contact and the old faithful elders have been KICKED UPSTAIRS.

I quote: "The first annual National Shepherd's Clinic will be held in San Antonio June 19-21, 2003 at Northside Church of Christ. Join me and hundreds of other church leaders for two rich days: Shepherding skills, Case studies from churches in transition, Moving from control to empowerment, Litigation-proofing your church....

and Transitioning your church.
Also Chris Seidman and Ronnie Norman presented strong keynote addresses.

In the Purpose Driven Cult "litigation" includes how to forge your bylaws so that when YOU steal the property the OWNERS cannot steal it back.

Transition n 1: the act of passing from one state or place to the next [syn: {passage}] 2: an event that results in a transformation [syn: {conversion}, {changeover}] 3: a change from one place or state or subject or stage to another 4: a musical passage moving from one key to another [syn: {modulation}] 5: a passage that connects a topic to one that follows
<color=red>"The sessions addressed Transitioning: Moving church leadership style from a Managing Board to a Shepherd's Circle of shepherding, mentoring and equipping. The agenda featured eight case studies from congregations at one stage or another along "Transition Trail" -- sharing both successes and difficulties.

Now you know that the old Managing Board has been usurped by a "Shepherd's Circle of Shepherding." Old Lynn lifts lots of stuff directly from Wicca or Witchcraft "patternism."

Lynn Anderson promotes the Promise Keepers Shepherding scheme which intends to turn the church into a Crossroads or IOCC movement with top-down domination.

I have a Web Page where I will continue to upgrade to prove that the hostile musical takeover is always the rise ot the effeminate or worse "providing a place in the mainstream for those who both amuse and repulse." This fits the patternism that most churches have become a feminist or effeminate ritual nothing like the MASCULINE school of the Bible Jesus died for to get these burden laders off your back.

http://www.piney.com/First.Colony.Norman.html

If I have lifted comments you had rather not get posted just let me know. I will also post any updates so we can see the Mother dragging the sheep off into the bushes.

PATTERNISM OF PERFIDITY.

2003 Teaching others by CASE STUDIES about how to TRANSISTION your church.
2004 Ronnie Norman gets to be a Directing Elder

These men undoubtedly OWE Ronnie for their position and THEY will direct the Staff and Elders:
What else is there to DIRECT.

Chris Seidman had turned the trick: they wrote a white paper filled with black lies and dared me to refute. I did.
Max Lucado had a VISION to remove CHRIST out of the way and ADD instruments: you understand just soft strings in maybe a class room. Lies. Wrote out his vision which parallels Chris Seidman which parallels the script handed to them by the NACC.
Rick Atchley--college roomie--went next. The Holy Spirit guarded, guided and directed to do his sermons: all lies and the same script.
Mark Henderson was the next one to get goosed: same lies with Atchley's CD."
Having figured the LOSSES as acceptable in
Ronnie Norman STACKS THE DECK and goes 2008

I can tell you one thing, this writer KNOWS that they are all lying and managed their lying wonders just like Revelation 17-18 details which happened several times in the Old Testament.

Not, to worry too much: You can count Milton Jones who spread the same lies in Seattle and stole my best work, you can count I have listed and I have not heard the names of any others. So PURPOSE DRIVEN to divert 13,000 congregations they got a few Anti Christ Universities which will help HEAL the wounds and those churches the INTENTIONAL DIVERTERS have had to radicalize or be so ashamed that they would have to be premature in their Judas Maneuver.

You need to look closely at why this small group have been so bonded to follow one another in sequence and all knowing that they were lying TO God and ABOUT God. Those enablers will burn in the same toasters.

When Ronnie LECTURES please transcript or make a list of the PROOFS and the Passages he twists out of shape and I will respond.

Here is why you NEED all of those BRAND NEW SHEPHERDS (probably not elders). Max Lucado hired a Discipling Minister. So, you already have the ticks fangs sunk deeply and lots of the resources have been already DIVERTED. They can still be litigated for stealing from you. The secret Guitar thing has not been accidental and I suggest you seek out a "Church in Exile" which has been planning how to do the CULT takeover. Lynn Anderson gives you reason for NEVER telling any of these new SHEPHERDS the time of day and you need to spread the word. They will love to get the dope on you and all such accountability groups insist that your secrets be tabulated and turned in to headquarters. Thereafter, if you dare even question them they will hurt you. Anyone willing to lie, cheat and steal your property, spiritual happiness, church family and literaly family connections. Rick Atchley let it be known that "you may have to choose between your family and instrumental music." The Stepford wives will also be ready to work on any wife whose husband begins to stand in their way.

Lynn Anderson: Accountability Group (no more than 3) What are some good questions to ask each time 2 or 3 of us men meet to hold each other accountable. What are the do's and don'ts of such a commitment...size limits...suggestions for such a commitment. If women want to do this, what accountability questions would be asked in this case? Your ideas and experiences and suggested resources please. We are ministers wanting to lead holy lives before our community in the hope that we may have opportunities to minister and teach.

Accountability Group (no more than 3) Maybe something I say about this can be of help.
I think we all know that accountability is an essential part of Christianity in that we are to help each other grow and become sharpened as iron sharpens iron.

Accountability questions need to be positive focused, direct, and geared toward motivating people to grow.

This type of accountability can be hard but it is where people really grow. Especially us ministers have a hard time admitting our faults for fear of discovery and losing our jobs and/or reputations. The end result is that many of us live double lives with secret sin being our second god that we worship when no one else is looking.

Obviously in some cases this deeper type of accountability is only appropriate within all male or all female groups.

Accountability groups only work when there is trust and openness. This may take a while to develop.

Give it time and START SLOW until you feel that your relationship can progress into these more INTIMATE areas.

Here's the list from Steve Farrar's "Point Man" (Promise Keepers)

1. Have you been with a woman this week in such a way that was inappropriate or could have looked to others that you were using poor judgment?

2. Have you been completely above reproach in all your financial dealings this week?

3. Have you exposed yourself to any explicit material this week?

4. Have you spent daily time in prayer and in the Scriptures this week?

5. Have you fulfilled the mandate of your calling this week?

6. Have you taken time off to be with your family this week?

7. Have you just lied to me?

Actually, Hope Network Ministries exists to coach, mentor and equip spiritual leaders. For that reason we do not use our web site to process doctrinal issues,

denominational peculiarities or personalities.

Rather we use this forum to encourage christian leaders, share ministry resources, coach and respond to questions regarding strategies, systems, skills etc. - things of this nature.

For most stable people this sounds so far out that you may be in DENIAL because your normal mind cannot grasp the depth of people able to work LYING WONDERS.

I wanted to comment on Ronnie’s sermon this past Sunday (5-4-2008). He took his sermon from Romans and specifically the section I wanted to speak to is in Romans 14. I do not believe that Paul was talking about people within the same Faith. I can almost say for certain that he was speaking of people with different Faiths. Those faiths included eastern religion that had practices far different than those practiced by the followers of Jesus. I believe that the people that congregated together were of like mind in how they should do “church”. For example, in Stafford, TX on Ave. E there is the most beautiful Hindu Temple. Hinduism believes that one can be of any religion, yet their faith is still Hindu. They can sit in any church and not violate their faith. Their religion is very open, their faith is very strong. If they were to be converted to a belief in Jesus, they would have a lot of adjusting in their hearts. Inside their temple is a statue/Idol which is tended to daily. They will change the robes on this statue at least every two days, food will be placed in front of it regularly and the windows and doors are opened and shut depending on weather and the light. I think Paul was saying to Christians, then and now, accept these people as souls that God cares for and do not belittle them, and keep your comments between you and God(vs. 22). We should minister to them in the love of Jesus. I do not believe that in Chapter 14 and 15 he was suggesting that we as a body of believers in the same congregation, recognize our differences, divide up among ourselves, be understanding of each other, and share the same preacher as a sign of unity. How is sharing the same preacher between different types of services showing anything?

When Jesus called his faithful, he told them to leave everything and follow him. During Jesus time, knowing how to provide food on a daily basis would be important to a mass of people, like fishing for food would have been. He did not turn to his followers and say, my ministry could use a few your nets and boats for fishing to feed people. He did not say, this ability you have mastered, would make my ministry more appealing to people and bring more people to knowing God. Nothing like the messages that Ronnie has been teaching the congregation about the musical service that he believes needs to be implemented, so as to attract or satisfy people. No on the contrary! Jesus said leave everything, your fishing nets, boats, bait, everything and follow me in Faith! Could we not say, as we follow Jesus example, that we need nothing to be more appealing to others than our heart, the spirit within us, which is God’s gift to everyone! Now in love, who should we follow?

Robert,

I appreciate you givning your thoughts on Ronnie and Romans 14. I don't agree with your conclusions (it seems evident to me, and most all scholars, that Paul was talking about and to Christians and their differing beliefs on what Paul deemed to be non-essential matters), but at least your thougths were specific to Ronnie's sermon. This is unlike Ken's modus operandi, where he simply takes things he wrote years ago, and repackages them for each on his new conspiracy theories (see http://www.piney.com/BibRom14Text.html for evidence).

I will also add that no one who has listened to Ronnie's sermon from this last Sunday (May 18th) could ever conclude that Ronnie follows anything other than the Word of God, and that only.

I have personally witnessed the good at First Colony, how lives have been changed from serving self to serving God, and how God is using the leaders and members at First Colony for advancement of God's kingdom and His glory. And I personally witnessed how Ken is tearing down God's kingdom.

Robert, this is the usual mantra to prove that it gives THEM the right to bring THEIR doubtful disputations into the "school of the Bible" and YOU have no right to object. The fact is, Paul was consigning all of the SELF-speak and self composed non-Biblical sermons and songs to the MARKETPLACE along with all other defiling or polluting practices.

It simply is not possible to even hallucinate turning a Church of Christ into a musical worship center without being terminally ignorant or terminally evil. The cards are ALL stacked against the latter day upstarts but they put on their blinders and pretend that the radical associaton with Satan, warriors, sacrificial sacrificers, prostitutes and Sodomites does not exist.

I do not believe that in Chapter 14 and 15 he was suggesting that we as a body of believers in the same congregation, recognize our differences, divide up among ourselves, be understanding of each other, and share the same preacher as a sign of unity. How is sharing the same preacher between different types of services showing anything?

What he is saying is that he wants to SPLIT the congregation so that his planned discorders can have their OWN church and drive many of the owners out into the cold. You are not speaking of a doctrinal problem you are speaking of the personification of evil.

It is abundantly clear that the GOAL is to go fully instrumental. They want to pollute the owners building with what they consider sinful and ANTI-Biblical and use psychological violence to keep them from RUNNING--but they will.

Those discipled in the Bible know that using MACHINES in the worship of a Holy God is universally condemned in the Bible and all of church history. It is always in the Bible a MARK of those telling God to: "Shut your face." If you are going to be DIVISIVE then Ronnie should do the minimally ethiical thing and go to a church already SERVING those who want to do "machine worship." It certainly shows that Ronnie is bound to get his way--spite of hell. Let him try to get the Baptist or Christian church to be so radically foolish.

They should have those opinions to themselves. They are NOT to be received in the church in order to accomodate their views. By teacing "that which is written" with one mind and one mouth in romans 15 the singers and instrument players could still practice their diet but they could NOT bring their charismatic MUSICAL practices into the ekklesia, synagogue or school of the Bible--ONLY.

In fact, Ronnie Norman and all of those who begin the GUILT TRIP do not have a remote clue that Paul was EXCLUDING the marketplace practices FROM the ekklesia or school of the Bible. Now, Ronnie wants to IMPOSE HIS doubtful disputations on the OWNERS and force the total assembly to MAKE USE of that which Paul OUTLAWED. You don't have to be bright to be a

Rom 14:1 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.

The three SECTS in Rome could be identified by where where they bought their food in the Agora or marketplace: The Orphics were bean eaters, the phythagorans had similar diet and the Dionysiacs were meat eaters and wine drinkers.

You IDENTIFIED them by their diet--mostly taken in the food stalls--but they were all highly addicted to singing and using musical instruments to AROUSE their feelings which Paul OUTLAWS for the ekklesia or School of the Bible in Romans 15.

The phythagorans: They had a large number of superstitious abstinences and dos and don'ts. They abstained from beans, did not break bread, did not eat from a whole loaf, and did not eat the heart (of their sacrifices). Example superstitions, such as not touching a white cock, not stepping over a crossbar, not stirring a fire with an iron, not plucking a garland etc. are too tedious to list here but can be seen in Burnet (ibid., p. 96).

There is no doubt this concept was entirely religious and selective. They also viewed music and astronomy as sister sciences. They used music to purge the soul and medicine to purge the body. Such methods of purifying the soul were familiar in the Orgia of the Korybantes and thus explains the Pythagorean interest in Harmonics (Burnet, pp. 97-98).

This is the PHARMAKIA or SORCERY in Revelation 18 speaking of singers, speakers and instrument players. Apollo or Apollyon who USED the muses as his musical worship team was the father of harmony, twanging the bowstring to send forth singing arrows, homosexual worship, thieves and liars. He claimed that MUSIC purged the Spirit through EXTERNAL MEANS.

Of the Dionysius meat eaters and wine drinkers.

Instruments, especially flutes and drums, were used to induce ecstasy, or frenzy, in the worshippers of certain deities. The devotees of Thracian Dionysus (Bacchus) engaged in orgies at night. Members of the society were seized with a divine madness as they danced to the music and would seize an animal who was believed to be the incarnation of the god, tear the body limb from limb, and eat it on the spot. By this sacred communion theyhoped to attain union with their god and themselves become Baccoi . There was a wave of Bacchic enthusiasm that swept Italy in 185 B.C. and created such a scandal that it was sternly repressed by the Roman senate." (Green, William M., The Church Fathers and Musical Instruments" unpublished paper, p. 32).

"Dionysus certainly roves more than the other gods; the traditional picture of him is not one of him sitting sedately on Olympus sipping nectar and listening to the Muses (9 females) sing.

Rather it is one of him roaming through the wilderness,
thrysus (a {shaking} reed bound with ivy and topped with a pine cone) in hand,

followed by bands of ecstatic women, his Bacchants, and spreading the art of cultivation of vines and of wine-making. Other gods may leave Olympus, but it is not habitual with them as it is with dionysus.

The CLERGY hoped that John the Baptist wore SOFT clothing but Jesus said he was not a SHAKEN REED: that is, he was not one of those homosexual, musical prophesiers who "bound the flesh and spirit together with homosexuality."

Here is a PICTURE of the Dionysiacs or "meat eaters and wine drinkers" Maybe this is a clue as to why they want to IMPOSE on decent people that which Paul outlawed in Romans 14 and Jesus outlawed when He cast out the musical minstrels like dung and consigned the "pipers, dancers and singers" to the MARKETPLACE:



This is why the hair stands up on the back of STRAIGHTS back and they FLEE Babylon. They may not realize that the MARK has been flashed but it is time for those with Spirit to not look back for their stolen property but run for their lives.

If Ronnie thinks Paul gave THESE people the permission to DOUBTFUL DISPUTE and bring on the REPROACHES he guards against then someone has a serious problem:

Rom. 15:3 For even Christ pleased not himself; but, as it is written, The reproaches of them that reproached thee fell on me.

Psa. 69:9 For the zeal of thine house hath eaten me up; and the reproaches of them that reproached thee are fallen upon me

2781. cherpah, kher-paw´; from 2778; contumely, disgrace, the pudenda:—rebuke, reproach(-fully), shame.

2778. haraph, khaw-raf´; a primitive root; to pull off, i.e. (by implication) to expose (as by stripping); specifically, to betroth (as if a surrender); figuratively, to carp at, i.e. defame; denominative (from 2779) to spend the winter:--betroth, blaspheme, defy, jeopard, rail, reproach, upbraid.

There is doubt among early writers that Lucifer did Adam in by sodomy and promised to keep the same shameful act on Jesus. The literature and language of the Bible indicates that they MUSICALLY MOCKED Jesus to the Cross and sodomized Him.

The SELF pleasure specificially OUTLAWS all of the performing arts QUARANTINED to the marketplace which "create mental excitement" so that people can CARRY US AWAY which is the meaning of a HERETIC.

HERE IS WHAT IS OUTLAWED WHICH OUTLAWS RONNIE AND ALL OF HIS SHEPHERDING elders who, according to the Lynn Andersion DOGMA intends to "Strip the lambs of all of their secret thoughts

“Disputing” implies a questioning mind and suggests an arrogant attitude by those who assume they’re always right. Arguing with others in the body of Christ is disruptive. That’s why Paul spent the first part of chapter 2 on humility.

As alluded to above, in the NT, dialogismos is used mainly in an evil sense describing reasoning that is the outcome of self-will. Here it describes reasoning of the natural mind in independence of God. In (see note Romans 1:21) it denotes the false notions about God, entertained in opposition to the facts revealed concerning Him in nature. We see this in Matthew's use...

"For out of the heart come evil thoughts (dialogismos), murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, slanders. These are the things which defile the man; but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile the man." (Mt 15:19-20)

More later but Paul is MARKING the people identified by their DIET in the marketplace as being EXCLUDED from the Ekklesia. The second major meaning of PSALLO identifies the polluted red rope used to DRIVE people from the Agora where the sold food, bodies, singing and playing instruments UP TO the PYNX (In Athens) to attend the EKKLESIA which was for VERBAL INSTRUCTION ONLY.

Therefore, as they usually TWIST Scripture, Romans 14-15 MARK Ronnie and his SHEPHERDING movement as NOT ABLE to participate up on the hill at the Ekklesia.

Ken: In this thread you did an excellence job of exposing the dark side of Ronnie Norman at First Colony, and the work of the other wolves feasting on the flock.
Charles: I hope Ken has helped you to wake up and try to stop Ronnie if you can. It sounds like he is to entrenched, your only option is to run.

To God be the Glory
Joe McKnight

Ken,

You continue to violate Paul's command about not judging other believers. For you to continually take worship that helps people in this day and time draw closer to God and twist it into something sexual and perverted, you just reveal your own perverse thinking. Your fruits reveal that you do not have the Spirit of Christ. Only one whose mind is carnal could take something as inspiring as a worship team singing "Our God Is An Awesome God" and see something sexual in it. You may not realize it, but every time you post one of your lengthy discourses on how "contemporary worship" is something sexual in nature, most objective readers can clearly see how much fleshly minded you are. I'm surprised you don't have a link to Fred Phelps' Westboro Baptist on here, because it seems you have some things in common with him. Do you have any idea how many people view this site as spiritual pornography?

Looks like you know a lot about the subject of judging people! Do you know anything about the subject of loving people?

The only way to JUDGE people is to actively pass sentence on them: these false teachers do the JUDGING that what they hallucinate TRUMPS all of the Bible and known history. Lying cannot be excused by whining "you're another one." Peter warned you that evil people can PERVERT Paul's writings to their own destruction. I have told you the truth and you will find no Biblical or historical evidence that pagan religious musicians performed "priestly duties" and were always perverts. To their credit, not in the VILEST pagan temple could singers or musicians enter into the Holy Place (type of the church) in 2 Chronicles 29 which they lie about EVEN TO CLEAN OUT GARBAGE left over from pagan musical worship INSIDE of the closed spaces which is THE Abomination of Desolation.

Paul, like Jesus defined two venues: the MARKETPLACE where you might be shunned based on the food stalls. Jesus consigned the pipers, singers and dancers along with all of the perverted religions to the marketplace. And he cast out the musical minstrels LIKE DUNG because they performed ONLY in the marketplaces and NEVER in the ekklesia or church. Flute-girl and prostitute is synonyms.

The ekklesia is DEFINED as for VERBAL instruction ONLY. Poetry and music is EXCLUDED by the word SPEAK because poets and musicians were RESTRICTED to writing MYTHS and never TRUE FACTS. You have fallen into what I accuse you of when you WORSHIP the team singing about a AWESOME God when it is AWEFUL GOD who intends to burn up all of the dogs and sorcerers. A TRUE church would let some manly person teach about an AWEFUL GOD who abandoned musical idolaters without blinking. Paul OUTLAWED discoursing anything doubtful from the "made up" poets and musicians.

Assuredly the Mother of Harlots using speakers, singers and instrumentalists as SORCERERS is an AWESOME GODDESS. But MY God is an AWFUL GOD who will burn you to a crisp for such a perverted approach. You just never even in vile paganism do THAT to a patriarchal god.

http://www.piney.com/MuAwesomeGod.html>

The priests were Khana-Baals. The end-time restoration of the Babylonian religion explains why the clergy are CONSUMING THEIR OWN flock as God pours out His wrath. They try to destroy the SEED OF CHRIST and SOW THE SEED OF THE SERPENT. See Hislop on the AWESOME cannabal eaters of FRUITS.

http://www.piney.com/Hisl71.html>

The history of S.U.N. worship now being urged to replace S.O.N. is the MARK and all of those "agents" were marked as sexually confused.

The Grand Inquisitor, Fyodor Dostoyevsky

http://www.piney.com/PrDostoy.html>

Ronnie Norman WARNS about NOT JUDGING but the same PERSONA of the hypocrites Jesus warns against is clear to anyone who can read the whole chapter in context.

JUDGE not, that ye be not judged. Matthew 7:1. Ronnie Norman of First Colony Church of Christ is manipulating a Church of Christ into using instrumental music. He will use Old Testament "snippets" which speak if musical instruments to claim that God COMMANDS INSTRUMENTAL PRAISE and consistent with those who went before him claim that we would be DISOBEDIENT if we did not use instruments. However, all of the Old Testament mention of instruments identify the serpent in the garden of Eden as a Musical Enchater(ess), Lucifer called that "singing and harp playing prostitute" in the garden, musical loss of grace at Mount Sinai, IMPOSED animal slaughter with exorcism noise--never called music, panic-driving warrior Levites, prostitutes and Sodomites.

In last week's sermon:

Ronnie speaks of a non-chronological Old Testament and defines the different genres of literature. However, in ALL of those types we see warrior instruments as part of a Gentile-like temple as a curse and MOST of the Prophets--speaking by the Spirit OF Christ--radically condemning instruments as the MARK of people who had refused to listen to the Word and therefore went into captivity. As Ronnie Norman says that Nehemiah should be the last book in the Old Testament, it is interesting that he denies that the King-Clergy-Temple system was by God's command but was imposed because of their sins. He concludes that they were all robbers and PARASITES who stole their inheritance.

Ronnie claims to "Know the Bible pretty well" and claims the Holy Spirit as revealing truth in the black text on white paper and it seems like the Holy Spirit (Jesus Christ) is often tardy in revealing the coded message. This is consistent with others who have IMPOSED musical instruments claiming visions, audible voices or the guidance of the Holy Spirit. They implicate the Spirit of Christ in lying about all of the proof texts.

The end of the sermon praises the ministry staff by saying that they had studied Matthew 7 about DO NOT JUDGE. I would guess that enough deliberate discord has been sown that people are judging his Holy Spirit revelation as NOT the fact. Therefore, here are some rough notes to prove that this NOT JUDGING points directly to the SECTARIANS as Scribes and Pharisees: he calls THEM hypocrites and Jesus will MARK them as hypocrites by OUTING performance speakers, singers and instrument players. Jesus identified Ezekiel as being seen as NOTHING MORE than perverted performers for a wage.

http://www.piney.com/Matthew7.html

If I planned to deliberately lie, as did his misleaders, about the Bible and claiming that he is led by the Holy Spirit, as they did, is well beyond redemption.

I studied this issue in some detail 24 years ago and reached what I believed to be a sound resolution. I am not professionally trained as a theologian, so that conclusion was based on a reading of readily available English translations of the Bible, specifically the Revised Standard Version, New Amereican Standard Bible, and New International Version, supplemented by some of the early debates on the subject among restoration movement leaders and several other sources. I realized that my conclusions differed from some people whose opinions I valued and respected and who had devoted more time to a study of the issue than had I. I knew that my conclusions were not infallible, but I also recognized that many men with more training and blessed with greater native intelligence and a more spiritual inclination than I differed among themselves on the issue. Those were men who had unquestionable respect for the scriptures and a love for the Lord. That recognition reaffirmed my conclusion that the issue was not as clearly addressed in the New Testament as we would have liked. I believe that God knows how to write a rule book, as evidenced by the specificity of Leviticus, and that his New Testament followers did not deliberately seek to hide the truth from we later followers. So, my conclusion was that the issue was worhty of debate and discussion, but that the discussion should properly be viewed as an inhouse debate among fellow believers, not an argument between sons of God and sons of Satan. I beleived then, and do now, that the Spirit that authored Leviticus would not leave us with any unclarity on a "salvation issue."

I visited this site at the suggestion of someone close to me to see if there were some aspects of the issue being raised that I had not considered 24 years ago and that I should think about. I was disappointed by much of what I read, which seemed to cross the line from good faith debate to anger and hatred. I believe the writers are all men of faith who seek the truth, but the tone of the writings does not seem to be reasonably calculated to either convince those of a different opinion or to draw anyone to Christ. I for one would appreciate a rational discussion of the issue that is based upon a reading of the scriptures as preserved in the English language. I am not comfortable placing my faith in any one man's interpretation of the Greek, because I have read different interpetations of the most applicable texts by men who had significant training in Biblical languages. Since I do not have training in the Biblical languages and have no opportunity to acquire that training from anyone who spoke it or wrote it during the time of Christ and his apostles, I am more comfortable accepting definitions that have been vetted by many scholars of different backgrounds, such as contained in the versions mentioned above.

I appreciate you providing this forum for discussion and I will visit this site again to see if the discussion has progressed in a way that will enlighten me to mistakes in my reasoning or that will raise concerns that I did not think about years ago. However, if the discussion continues to move in the direction of hatred and villification, I believe that the opportunity for members to discuss current issues afforded by this forum will be wasted and will not serve to enlighten or educate any interested party but will merely become another avenue to express anger and bitterness.

My daughter tells me that I cannot speak without sounding like I am lecturing, so I apologize if this sounds like a lecture. I simply believe that the "unity" movement that is and was the American Restoration Movement has witnesses so much strife and discord in the last 110 years that it has lost much of its ability to spread the truth of the Gospel. It would be a pleasant change to see the swords la