ConcernedMembers has received the following request and message from Nashvilleto which CM is responding accordingly:
___________________________________
Thanks for helping to get the warning about the Artios/Calvinists school in Nashville via the ConcernedMembers website. But is there some way for it to get its own web page so it will be more accessible to parents who need to be better informed? As it is now, you can get to it only through the Engedi Ministries Exposed! page. Can it be fixed so that it will automatically come up if someone simply types Artios Academy on Google, Yahoo, or a similar search engine? [Please note a couple of corrections] for clarity.
CM Responds: Heres the direct link to the Engedi Ministries Exposed! page; or by typing engedi ministries exposed on Google, the reader will be directed to this top link:
Heres the direct link to the Artios Academy False Teachings Reviewed page; or by typing artios academy false teachings reviewed on Google, the reader will be directed to this top link:
[CM notes the following should state: (a) Danny Hale, CEO teacher for Engedi and Artios supporter; (b) We might note that Jesus quoted Isaiah and Ezekiel to identify performance speakers, singers and instrument players as hypocrites!]
___________________________________
[Re: Tim Alexander and Calvinism]
Also, could you please publish some type of rebuttal on [this] MORE CHURCHES/Smith Springs thread to Brother (?) Alexanders article from back in September?
CM: The article in reference was published in The Tennessean (Tuesday, September 25, 2007)Society must decide to hold all life as precious and to be protected. The entire article in Tennessean.com may be obtained from the Voices & Views: Tennessee Voices and a search on: society must decide tim Alexander
In the article, Im quoting:
Ministers once used biblical texts to teach that natural inequality was divinely distributed.
[Now, isnt that one of the basic tenets of Calvinism: God chose some, but not others? Isnt he criticizing the very thing he now advocates?]
We are not clean slates from screaming babes to philandering old men we are self-centered.
[Isnt that just a reworded form of Total Depravity, of the 5 points of TULIP + original sin?]
Society must hold the value that life is ultimately precious.
[Not so in Gods eyes, at least not for those hes ultimately condemned to Hell!]
[Whats missing? Is he ashamed to admit his affiliation with the Churches of Christ? I bet he isnt when he goes to get his church check cashed at the end of each month.]
My thanks to ConcernedMembers.
This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 70.197.163.223 on Apr 3, 2013 8:29 PM This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 70.197.170.113 on Feb 27, 2013 5:07 PM This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 70.197.165.40 on Feb 22, 2013 10:27 PM
(My grandson suggested I write you to see about getting this put on ConcernedMembers, Smith Springs section.)
In your posting of this former pillar of the church there, Otis Charlton states, “And there arose another generation, which knew not the Lord! One generation served the Lord while the next did not. How swiftly things can change!” (page 10)
One can’t help but wonder if Brother Charlton was referring to the pattern he was noticing of how his peer group of seasoned elders at Smith Springs was methodically leaving the ranks in rapid succession, usually to move to another congregation.
Isn’t it true that there’s not a single elder left who is within 25—maybe even 30 years—of Bro. Otis’ age?
Do you know of any other mature congregation out there that doesn’t have a single elder in their mid-60s? Name one!
How does a church lose an entire generation of leadership and experience unless something is seriously amiss? This is just one more critical red flag.
Oh, for the days of Brother Hollins’, Whorley’, Beeson’ and Otis’ oversight.
you guys may be just stirring up something that's much ado about nothing.
according to a disenchanted engedi insider / mole the bulk of engetti's meager membership consists of 3 main groups:
1. innediate family of the bro. hale w/ a few of his close friends.
2. former employees of bro. hale and their extended families.
3. divorced / remarried folks who are afraid there's not another c of c out there who'd except them, especially as a deacon / church leader.
and he/she says they're not selling anything new, just rehashed jon calvin stuff - well maybe new to some unsuspecting c of c'ers - but strictly stale old tradition to most presbyterians.
You had a writer a few weeks ago (J.L.) suggesting that since none of the elders are in any official position with engedi that this matter should just be dropped. Well just because one is not in some official position is like putting a liquor bottle in a brown paper bag and hoping no one will notice. It's a sham.
Really jl, you can't be serious. Name just one other congregation in our brotherhood that keeps the chief spokesman (D.Law.) and the chief administrator (C.Con.) of some calvinistic ministry as members in good standing. And your preacher even admits that he's bought into their system; isn't that one of the main reasons he got the position over more qualified applicants?
But here's where it really gets telling. Ask your elder Hale just how many of the current deacons have been financial supporters of engedi over the years. Then ask how much $$ Lawrence and Conway have received from engedi on average for the past 5 years. Last, just ask him how much of an annual tax write-off he personally gets from this church-of-christ-bashing organization.
If you find yourself too intimidated or too afraid to ask such direct clarifying questions of one of your own shepherds then it must mean that their alleged prefect grace, unlike perfect love,
does NOT cast out fear.
J.L., you might be able to see a little clearer if you'd just take off those blinders.
It's been 500+ years since Europe first began climbing out from under the cloak of bondage of catholicism. Yet we're to believe that we don't have
any clearer understanding of God today than then, even though God's allegedly been directing every man's every action? We're just to spend the rest of time on this earth recycling those old puritanical creeds and
traditions?
My brother has to do consultant work with a few European countries from
time to time. Bleak and Barren is how he describes the state of reformed
religion in most of those countries today. But no one's really surprised that the inevitable result of absolute predestination is apathy. Why fight
things that God's already determined? What's the real point? And just look how the Puritan's beliefs ran it's cycle in this country, too.
(Examine the fruit closely, brethren.)
Let's move on and acknowledge that Lawrence's humanistic label is not accurate for those who simply believe that John 3:16,17 means what it says. Enough of the religious double speak that's designed to try to salvage Calvin's well intentioned, but shallow, dogma. Let's grow.
We have an elderly man at our church who spent the first season of his life in a denomination which taught what the smith springs reformers are now teaching.
He says he just got tired of trying to ignore, or explain away, the multitude of clear passages which contradict the section of the creed which claims that Jesus' sacrifice isn't available or accessible to all men (i.e. limited atonement.).
As his faith has grown from what he now calls his 'former juvenile understanding', he now celebrates God's love and concern for mankind.
Last week, during a Christmas service, he asked me to read all of the words at Jesus' arrival, as we read in Luke 2:10, but especially the word ALL (as
he also pointed out in John 1:7).
His prayer is that the dark veil will soon be lifted from all who would attempt to contradict clear biblical teaching, by making God a respector of persons. May the next year bring renewed fervor to reveal ALL of TRUTH.
2 very ironic things seem to have happened.
For years Engedi's calvinists have been erroneously advancing their 5 point plan as being deep. How ironic that the preacher of their preference wasn't even a Bible major at Harding, and now his sole Bible degree is from a university (Vanderbilt) where the majority of the Bible faculty don't even believe in the absolute inspiration of the scriptures! How is that in any way deep? Their theories are different, but not deep, once you realize that they are just the old tired misleading dogma, or as the calvinist- Baptist phrase it, "Primitive". Indeed!
Irony #2 that is emerging relates to pastor Tim's current campaign to call attention to child abuse in the church. This is the very reason many removed their teens (and their families) from that assembly!
Many considered the clandestine classes that Jason Charlton had with teens in his home to be a type of spiritual abuse, or at least a gross misuse of power. Bro. Jason even had the audacity to ask the eldership to help pay for courses that he took at some on-line calvinist college. After he was denied the aid he proceeded to take the courses anyway and would use the outlines of those courses to help serve as the topics & outlines of some classes that he would teach to select teens in his home. Even some men, who are still in leadership positions, refused to allow their own teens to attend those classes, as well as many of the classes that Lawrence taught. What does that tell you?
And if J.L. still questions the close affiliation with your church and Engedi, just go on the Sm.Sp. web
sight and you'll notice only ONE current entry under "Links." Yes, it's Engedi (at least until they read this and correct it!). And check out the "Links" page on Engedi and you'll notice that nearly ALL are to similiar calvinists-based sites. Don't dare to look for "21st Century Christian" or "ACU" or anything related to our fellowship. It's simply horribly unbalanced, j.l.
There is recently uncovered evidence that dispite the widely held belief the Apostle Paul did in fact not graduate from Freed Hardiman University. There is also increasing speculation that he also did not preach from the King James Version............More tonight at 10............
I was surprised to learn some time ago that David Gaylor was the preacher at Vultee: I wondered whether his old Calvinism had been purged or whether Vultee is sympathetic.
I asked because of a question I received about who was trying to alert them: I know David Gaylor's name has been raised many times by the ex Smithers and I don't know anything about his views or about Vultee. David Lawrence's name was also brought up and I pointed him to my review's of David Lawrence's confusing over Calvinism and everything the Church of Christ believes. Otherwise, I have not contacted Vultee.
If no one knows anything then forget it: I still reserve the right to ask questions.
Why the shock? The Churches of Christ entire interpretative principles - Silence is authoritative and CENI - was created by Calvin from his Regulative Principle.
No doubt, a few members of the diminishing Calvinists clique out there will be celebrating John Calvin's birthday this week.
Quite interesting, considering how Calvin was so against celebrating, or as he called it "merriment."
He helped purge his morose Geneva of games, festivities, or anything deemed "idleness" (which probably even included a
Sabbath rest). And since no one really knew who was or wasn't "chosen" (like he assumed he was) it was best to err on
the side of caution by demanding that everyone adapt to his standards and to act like they might be chosen too.
This, then is what the Reformed group has the audacity to call "assurance."
So all of you hedonistic UNO players, athletes, and celebrants, take heed. As one person has observed, "If Jesus had been a
Calvinist his first miracle would have probably been to turn the water into BRINE!"
If "Debbie Downer" is religious you can bet she's a Reformed Calvinist.
Just observe for yourselves the general temperment of most Calvinists that you've had contact with; are they usually not the
gloom & doom, "the glass is half-empty" types?
Doesn't it seem that they are only REALLY comfortable when they're in a setting where they're discussing or defending the
old creed? For many of them it's Calvin's INTERPRETATION of scripture that has replaced a study of the scriptures themselves.
And once you're under that spell there's often no going back.
As Lawrence, et al continue their Engedi minsitry calvinism distortions the Great Commission gets reduced to the Great Omission - if you aren't chosen like them you just get omitted by their control-freak Grace God.
You love Him only if he makes you love him.
Doesn't this defy the very foundational concept of what we all understand as LOVE?
The news is good, but only if you're like them.
How is this not akin to the old "We're the only ones going to heaven"
line? I guess the apple doesn't fall far from the tree.
Check out the current ENGEDI MINISTRIES
on line web link and you'll see the preacher Tim Alexander as the teacher for their classes starting in January.
Also don't miss the CALVINISM wirte-up and how they say it's one of the best
Systems of theology.
They warned us that it was that.; thanks
Concerned Members.
Well now that the leaders of the Engedi Ministries,
all members in good standing at this church, have stated
plainly on their CALVINISM thread that they are proud to be part of some resurgence of Calvinism, which they call
'simply the Gospel', let's see how this pans out in real-life. JOY TO THE WORLD has this line: "let every heart prepare Him room". By reading between the lines what a Calvinist hears is 'every chosen heart will have Him forced upon their feeble wills.' And John 3:16 becomes:
"For God so love the chosen - like us - of the world, that whosoever is forced to believe in Him should not perish - like the ones God doesn't choose, but gets some strange 'pleasure' by shipping them off to hell- but have everlasting life.": Good news?
I did not want to wait in hopes of a change in leadership. I'm glad I left because I would have been waiting a long time. There are some really nice folks there that I miss.
Romans is a favorite book for the exclusivists who SOMEHOW know that they are predestinated to heaven and not hell.
One of the marks seems to be Baptism as a SEAL so how could you be sealed if you keep calling Christ in prophecy, in practice, in command and all recorded history liars.
I have lumped the whole book of Romans on one page: I will begin anticipating Timmy pretty fast. First, I need to format the verses in my "predestinated" way which confuses some but seems to develop the syllogism (that which they did in ekklesia and synagogue) with a conclusion.
I will try not to let this one get away from me and use lots of links to some of the Engedi's simplistic reading of the New Testament but never looking where Paul points in Romans 9-11 where he pauses and denies that the JEWS were predestinated. He used their failure of falling into musical idolatry at Mount Sinai as their becoming CASTAWAYS and abandoned to worship the starry host. He uses the same failure in 1 Corinthians 10. In 2 Corinthians 3 Paul told the Corinthian Jews that they would not be able to read their Old Testament until they turned, were converted which has the same meaning as baptism.
Romans 3 and 4 is where they fail to look to the examples of justification (does not mean salvation) by Faith only.
Feed me any suggestions you wish and use some fictitious e-mail since there seems to be some fear of the Goat People. I suppose that if they will twist the church house of widows away from them they might be dangerous and assuredly marked as NOT predestinated to where THEY think they are bound.
We were warned YEARS ago, at this very site, about Lawrence's hardcore Calvinist stance and now it can be seen for what it truly is. In his current series of Devotionals (???) his topic is
THE TULIP IS A LOVELY FLOWER.
Enough said?
(9.27.2010) "Most of our readers would know that in the English languate the word tulip is an acronym for the distinctives of the Reformed faith to which we at Engedi are committed."
...(Tulip) refers to a lovely truth which blesses the lives of those who embrace it. I say 'it' because the doctrines must be taken together to be seen as a whole...these doctrines require constant care in explication, defense, and faithful and patient preaching."
(Could it be that way because they can't stand on their own merit?)
In his following Devotional he specifically lays out the TULIP acronym's meanings,(for about the hundreth time; is it a coincidence that it is a 5 Step plan, also?) as well as a lengthy history of John Calvin himself. (insert multiple Yawns, as needed; are we worshipping Jesus or this John C. guy, already?)
The good news? After a short-lived burst periods, this cancerous doctrine, just like the tulip flower, goes into LONG, uninspiring seasons of dormancy and unfruitfulness. This doctrine, even coming from a tiny Church of Christ thinktank, is just another brief belch in its history;
same old same old.
The more things change the more they've stayed the same.
And where does this man attend church regularly?
That's why you found this information on this thread.
Come on, just find you a wilting Presbyterian church and be done with it.
this wilting tulip should not be confused in ANY way with a PLAN
of salvation; this is merely a distorted theory of semi-salvation
that has only ONE step: either God chose (i.e. is a respector of
Calvinists' personhood) OR it's off to the fiery gates of hell for you.
End of story. Aah, refreshing engedi waters; curious how that stream literally runs off into the DEAD sea. what a sham; what a shame.
And even more of a shame how it is legitimatized as an option in the
lipscomb community as it is advocated by their professor lawrence (not even a bible professor, of course) who still insists on warming a C of C
pew on sundays at sm. springs. (at least when he's not a guest speaker for the presby's.)
one of the true ironies is that the doctor's LATEST IDEAS actually go back over 15 centuries and was simply rehashed in the DARK ages.
but what average 19 year old non-presbyterian would even know such?
if you'll remember your own impressionable college years it was a lot like the athenians in acts 17:21 who "spent their time doing nothing but talking about and listening to the LATEST IDEAS." (see also II Tim. 4:3)
this recent observation from a former follower is quite insightful:
"he (dr. L) can't retire - he'd lose the significant portion of his audience that's proven to be the most vulnerable. even most thirty year olds can see through the strange manipulation of scripture.
besides all he'd be left to do is play with his spiffy model trains."
"Predestination, in Christian theology, the teaching that a person's eternal destiny is predetermined by God's unchangeable decree. Most exponents of the doctrine have maintained that it is only the individual's final destiny that is predetermined, not the individual's actions, which remain of free will. The doctrine customarily takes one of two forms: single predestination or double predestination.
"Single predestination is based on the experience of God's presence and love, and on the understanding that the gift of God's presence is an act of sheer grace. In order to emphasize that the gift is independently willed by God, some Christians have asserted that their relation to God depends only on God and on God's eternal decree established before the foundation of the world.
"Double predestination asserts that, because salvation and glory are predestined, condemnation and destruction must also be predestined. Encarta Online.
One of the worst evils to come into the mind of God was of a people who would put their children in the red hot arms of the iron idol of Molech to be burned up at Topheth, the "king's music grove" which came to stand for hell itself:
And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech;
which I commanded them not,
neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin. Jeremiah 32:35
Sin came into the WORLD and not into either Adam or Eve.
This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 67.142.130.42 on Oct 21, 2010 10:00 PM This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 67.142.130.42 on Oct 21, 2010 10:00 PM
I understand that "Pastor Tim" has departed Smith Springs and Dr. Lawrence has as well in protest of the elders sending him (Tim) packing. Is this true? Is it possible that Smith Springs may be returning "to the fold"?
Just wondering............
...if Danny Hale is leading the flock in the interim. Their website has new audio lessons by Danny Hale that I am guessing are from the pulpit. If Mr. Hale has anything to say about it, Smith Springs will again find a minister of the TULIP belief.
Jesus hid the truth from the sophists: rhetoricians, singers, instrument players and Christ in Exekiel 33 called them hypocrites. He said that truth had been hidden in parables from the foundation of the world to fool the foolish.
You will never love God and appreciated the Bible until you understand parables. Since those who do not love the truth (too many songs and sermons) God will send you strong delusions that you believe a lie. The lying wonders is exactly the HIGH FLYING ritualism Tim promoted in A Church that Flies, loved and adored by too many of the young and restless preachers who missed Bible 101aa. They, too, want to fly. But here is a wonderful picture that makes me a wonderful prophet AFTER you see God making fools out of the foolish who thin they are tasked to ESCAPE the labyrinth of the olden church of Christ following the olden (pre post modern) Bible.
Minos shut up the guilty Daedalus in the labyrinth, along with his son Icarus, who had been borne to Daedalus by Naucrate, a female slave of Minos. But Daedalus constructed wings for himself and his son, and enjoined his son, when he took to flight, neither to fly high, lest the glue should melt in the sun and the wings should drop off, nor to fly near the sea, lest the pinions should be detached by the damp. [13] But the infatuated Icarus, disregarding his father's injunctions, soared ever higher, till, the glue melting, he fell into the sea called after him Icarian, and perished.
You just watch some of the latest spawn of kiddy preachers wax on their wings. Hypocrite always means first of all (Ezekiel 33) slick rhetoricians, singers, players, acters, theater builders and stage (worship) manager. They are NOT sincere or "without wax" so I conclude that they are trying to fly too close to Sun Worship (Apollo, Abaddon, Apollyon) with WAXED ON WINGS.
This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 67.142.130.48 on May 27, 2011 1:20 PM
lI notice that Engedi is still their ministry. In the latest on Free Will, David Lawrence denies that there is any free will in the Bible.
Maybe he is look up the phrase "free will?"
Exodus 20:25 And if thou wilt make me an altar of stone, thou shalt not build it of hewn stone:
....for if thou lift up thy tool upon it, thou hast polluted it.
Exodus 20:26 Neither shalt thou go up by steps unto mine altar,
....that thy nakedness be not discovered thereon.
Matthew 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God:
.... but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
Matthew 19:21 Jesus said unto him,
.... If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor,
.... and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
Speaking of "the leadership at Smith Springs," the congregation is in the process of moving its website to -- http://www.smithspringschurch.org (from ".com"). Changes are in progress. But, as becoming more and more typical of some of the liberal congregations in our brotherhood, there is no link to the page that lists its elders--of all things so important in the development and growth of a congregation. They have more interest in the church's "social" events and activities than in knowing the leaders who are to feed the flock.
So, at this juncture, I'm not sure if is accurate to state, "If no one in the leadership at Smith Springs is associated with the Engedi stuff...." Personally, I believe that the leadership (if we're speaking in terms of the minister) is "associated with the Engedi stuff."
Our best resource is Ken Sublett. He is very familiar with Smith Springs' situation. Here's a link that should help explain matters more clearly; it's titled "Engedi Ministries Reviewed!":
Here is a disturbing statement from its website, when it speaks of "in our congregation":
In our congregation we have many people who have been blessed by a long heritage with the Stone-Campbell (Restoration) Movement. We have many other people from a variety of Christian backgrounds: Baptist, Methodist, Presbyterian, Catholic ... to name some.
If the expression "we have many other people" is in reference to expected VISITORS or those in serious studies with the truth, then, it is not a problem. But it should be clarified. Otherwise, that leaves us with a serious question of "how one is added to the Lord's church" or "how one becomes a member of the Lord's body"
Well it appears that someone did not get the memo.....Engedi has desolved, shut down, is kaput....guess you will have to come up with something new and totally unrelated to Smith Springs to blame them for now!!!! No doubt they will dream up something.
Anonymous 98.87.23.169
Subject: "things haven't really changed..." June 3 2011, 5:49 AM
...if Danny Hale is leading the flock in the interim. Their website has new audio lessons by Danny Hale that I am guessing are from the pulpit. If Mr. Hale has anything to say about it, Smith Springs will again find a minister of the TULIP belief.
=========================
Re-posted: latest as of this date
ConcernedMembers
I received the package today: thanks. I have downloaded David Lawrence's perspective and will post my review. I may pick specificially on the idea that ELECTION means from all eternity to either heave or hell, and Instrumental Music which his scholarship has not prepared to refute. That's the problem with studying dogma rather than the Scriptures.
We have covered David Lawrence shallow understanding as to why there is no historic scholarship to back him up.
I will post my review in part here and also to the wider audience. God is not kind to people who cannot defend the hard working people who fed his face.
For true historians it is important that we leave a record for future generations.
Here is how some of the Lipscomb students REALLY understood what was happening.
I will admit to being one of the people who got drawn into this neo-calvinist camp for a while thanks primarily to the influence of leaders and members at this congregation. They even helped influence one of my best friends to go on to a reformed seminary so he could understand this all better. I've heard they're still doing this today with some select college students. Calvinism, at least their new version, as clarified by R.C. Sproul (a modern author and lecturer who the Engedi leaders all hold in high regard) seemed to offer some pretty simple answers to some very complex questions, early on. But for every leak it seemed to patch a couple of new ones would start somewhere else. My biggest problems were their inconsistent word games with Bible concepts like chosen and dead in sin. It got even more complicated the deeper I got as I started to realize that my own pride factor would make it hard to admit that I, and some smart men I knew, could be mistaken.
When I raised some serious questions I would be told that I just needed to give it some time since these were such new ideas to me and so deep. They actually told me that 'you just have to give it some time.' I couldn't help but think of another time I'd heard that phrase: During my first weekend visit to my first college men's dorm I was stunned by the aroma. You know the mildewed towels, the sneaker odor, the gym clothes, etc. I asked my host how he stood it. His answer? 'You jut have to give it some time!'
Here's what I saw, and still see, in some of my friends /students who are still deep in this: when all you surround yourself with is this teaching - it's all you read, study, listen to, breathe, talk about, it's the only people you associate with - you just get to the saturation point where you don't even notice the haze in the room anymore; it becomes WHO you are. And it is really appealing to young people because it's advertised as NEW and DEEP. I finally realized that it is only deep like quicksand is deep.
One author expresses it this way: "The problem as I see it now is that I had gained my identity through an association with a particular historical tradition. I think it would have been appropriate to accuse me of being a Calvinist first and a Christian second. I never would have admitted it, but the fact is that this was true."
I beg those of you who may have doubts about this, open a window, open a door, open books from other deep theologians with the other viewpoint, for God's sake open all of God's Word! This new improved reformed stuff makes God much more like some cosmic czar from Greek mythology [fatalism] than what is revealed in the Bible. It goes right against the grain of the parable God's own son used to enlighten us about the true nature of his Father regarding a prodigal son: a God who is genuine enough to allow creatures, created in his image, to respond to him out of unmanipulated love (agape); and it is a misrepresentation to label this as some type of 'legalistic work'.
So here's my personal experience: this teaching is NOT an oasis of water; it is some sort of post-modern MIRAGE.
This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 70.197.175.1 on Feb 25, 2013 8:44 PM This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 70.197.175.1 on Feb 25, 2013 8:00 PM
From my associaton with a couple of Lipscomb students from Smith Springs, I had the chance, a few years back, to attend one of Engedi's off campus Bible studies (it was held in the home of one of the Eng. leaders.) After about 30 minutes it almost felt like I was watching a high school play - you know where everyone has memorized their lines they've been given beforehand, and they try so hard to make it sound unrehearsed. It became clear that of the dozen or so students there, that I was the only one who didn't know the words to the club song or the motto.
As long as everyone stayed with the expected verses & line everything went smoothly. It seemed so loical at first. "You do believe God is all powerful and all knowing, don't you?" (Well yes) "Then it only follows, doesn't it, that God already knows who will be in heaven eternally, so how could He NOT use his Sovereign (a favorite word of theirs) power to make sure that all the one's he's chosen will make it? You do know that nothing God plans can be thwared (another favorite word)- it tells us that in the Bible." The session almost had the pressure feeling of one of those time-share, condo sales pitches, and I really believe an observation that has already been made is true about Engedi: "most of the Calvinistic teaching are delivered in small doses so it is not possible to get a coherent picture."
My own Bible study lead me to see some real problems with of of their first major points - total depravity (Mr. Lawrence refers to 'depravity' often in his Short Studies Textual Studies, on their engedi.org web page; see Genesis, Romans, & John). Am I honestly supposed to believe that the Bereans, mentioned in Acts 17:11, were more noble because God had irrestibly chosen for this depraved group to understand, and want to study the Scriptures, but God chose, conversely, for the Thessalonicans to NOT have a desire to know the Truth? It just seemed to me that this line of logic is closer to ancient Mayan's in Mexico who had god's that demanded regular human sacrifieces to appease their desire for justice!
Another verse they mentioned was from Ezekiel. This very verse is the topic of www.engedi.org/04.07.03.html. Mr. Lawrence says Ezek. 14:9-11 is a major problem for those of us who belive that God has nothing to do with the "bad" things of life. What these guys have obviously chosen to stay blinded to is their major problem this raises: If God causes come of the 'bad' things, and God cause everthing (as they boldly teach), then God causes, always had, caused ALL 'bad' things, too. And I don't care how slick one gets with that politician double talk, or how divine & wise the medieval renaissance men chose to label themselves (see 'Divine Men's Club', in this forum), or how lofty, eloquent, verbose (and confusing) you get with the King's English (and his political aspirations), or how hard you scourge your own back with a leather strap while you chant 'God is not the author of sin' -- if you just shove their creedal theories into reverse and follow their logic back as far as you can go, you finally see where their teaching says that sin originated. (P.S. it wasn't Satan.) No wonder R. C. Sproul calls this their 'excruciating problem'. Since they teach that the will of man or angels only moves when given the desire by God, then the only way Lucifer & Adam (before the fall) could have sinned was for God to have given them that desire!
Welcome to the new 'joy and assurance'; be sure you read the fine print before you but!
OF COURSE Calvinists ALWAYS ignore the context: perhaps they are predestinated?.
And the word of the Lord came unto me, saying, Ezek 14:2
Son of man, these men have set up their idols in their heart, and put the stumblingblock of their iniquity before their face: should I be enquired of at all by them? Ezek 14:3
Therefore speak unto them, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God;
.....Every man of the house of Israel that setteth up his idols in his heart,
.....and putteth the stumblingblock of his iniquity before his face,
.....and cometh to the prophet; I the Lord will answer him that cometh
.....according to the multitude of his idols; Ezek 14:4
That I may take the house of Israel in their own heart,
.....because they are all estranged from me through THEIR idols. Ezek 14:5
Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord God;
.....Repent, and turn yourselves from your idols;
.....and turn away your faces from all your abominations. Ezek 14:6
Ezek 14:7 For every one of the house of Israel, or of the stranger that sojourneth in Israel,
.....which separateth himself from me, and setteth up his idols in his heart,
.....and putteth the stumblingblock of his iniquity before his face,
.....and cometh to a prophet to enquire of him concerning me;
.....I the Lord will answer him by myself:
Ezek 14:8 And I will set my face against that man,
.....and will make him a sign and a proverb,
.....and I will cut him off from the midst of my people;
.....and ye shall know that I am the Lord.
When you tamper with the Word God sends STRONG DELUSIONS so that you believe your own lies. The MARK is Lying Wonders which are religious services with speakers, singers, instrument players and actors known as hypocrites.
And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing,
.....I the Lord have deceived that prophet,
.....and I will stretch out my hand upon him,
.....and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel. Ezek 14:9
And they shall bear the punishment of their iniquity:
.....the punishment of the prophet shall be even
.....as the punishment of him that seeketh unto him; Ezek 14:10
Ezekiel 14:11 That the house of Israel may go no more astray from me,
.....neither be polluted any more with all their transgressions;
.....but that they may be my people, and I may be their God, saith the Lord GOD.
Ezekiel 14:12 The word of the LORD came again to me, saying,
Ezekiel 14:13 Son of man, when the land sinneth against me by trespassing grievously,
.....then will I stretch out mine hand upon it, and will break the staff of the bread thereof,
.....and will send famine upon it, and will cut off man and beast from it:
So,since David Lawrence SPEAKS ON HIS OWN he will be assisted by God. The Spirit OF Christ says that the PCA lie TO God and ABOUT God.
This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 70.197.175.1 on Feb 25, 2013 9:05 PM
David Lawrence and Covenant Presbyterian Church Nashville
February 27 2013, 5:03 PM
David Lawrence is proud to boast of what he believes to be a successful victory.
There were four major theaters of operation for me for the next nearly twenty years:
Smith Springs, Lipscomb, Engedi Ministries, and Covenant Presbyterian Church.
Although action was moving forth on all these fronts simultaneously, for the help of the reader, I shall discuss them separately. Only one remains today.
David Lawrence and Covenant Presbyterian Church Nashville
February 27 2013, 5:03 PM
David Lawrence is proud to boast of what he believes to be a successful victory.
There were four major theaters of operation for me for the next nearly twenty years:
Smith Springs, Lipscomb, Engedi Ministries, and Covenant Presbyterian Church.
Although action was moving forth on all these fronts simultaneously, for the help of the reader, I shall discuss them separately. Only one remains today.
Re: David Lawrence and Covenant Presbyterian Church Nashville
March 15 2013, 12:10 PM
I got your mail and understand: I will add these comments.
I suspect that David Lawrence had some friends at Lipscomb: they seem to be pretty lost in Space.
John Mark Hicks is a guiding light at Woodmont FAMILY of God. They are hiring a rabbi to come in and conduct the PASSOVER using lots of foods and mumbo-jumbo.
Of course, the Passover was more of a DISCIPLINE for people who FORGOT the original Passover and fell into musical idolatry at Mount Sinai. Doing "Passover" outside of the QUARANTINE at Jerusalem was violating the Law and an abomination.
From Wikipedia, regarding the etymology, "hypocrite" means "jealous", "play-acting", "acting out", "coward" or "dissembling". Surely none have ever been more prototypical than David Lawrence.
This web site is not part of or approved by any Church!
...........................THE BOOK
What Happened At the Madison Church of Christ?
There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.
This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison
Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource
references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least
you will recognize the signs early on.
Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't
know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.
Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was
one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.
It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of
it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word
of Jesus Christ.
At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority
of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly
realm.
They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and
to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.
The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan.
Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books,
seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change
so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....
At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to
be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched
through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the
"Community Church Movement"
Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready,
or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the
plans very nature, it had to be secret.
The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was
never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last
15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.
The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the
elders went along unwittingly.
This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell
something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill
in some of the timeline.
To even start to understand whats happening here, you must read the
background materials in the first of the book.
This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be
printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our
web site; http://www.concernedmembers.com/madison
Here is the list of players;
5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten
commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)
![[linked image]](http://www.piney.com/Icarus.Flight.gif)