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February 21 2009, 9:54 AM 

Why the shock? The Churches of Christ entire interpretative principles - Silence is authoritative and CENI - was created by Calvin from his Regulative Principle.

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(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Where is it?

February 21 2009, 9:37 PM 

Do you know where the Viper's Den is? There's a warning: "Enter at your own risk!!!"

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C. B.
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calvin's birthday celebration?

July 7 2009, 9:50 PM 

No doubt, a few members of the diminishing Calvinists clique out there will be celebrating John Calvin's birthday this week.
Quite interesting, considering how Calvin was so against celebrating, or as he called it "merriment."
He helped purge his morose Geneva of games, festivities, or anything deemed "idleness" (which probably even included a
Sabbath rest). And since no one really knew who was or wasn't "chosen" (like he assumed he was) it was best to err on
the side of caution by demanding that everyone adapt to his standards and to act like they might be chosen too.
This, then is what the Reformed group has the audacity to call "assurance."

So all of you hedonistic UNO players, athletes, and celebrants, take heed. As one person has observed, "If Jesus had been a
Calvinist his first miracle would have probably been to turn the water into BRINE!"
If "Debbie Downer" is religious you can bet she's a Reformed Calvinist.
Just observe for yourselves the general temperment of most Calvinists that you've had contact with; are they usually not the
gloom & doom, "the glass is half-empty" types?
Doesn't it seem that they are only REALLY comfortable when they're in a setting where they're discussing or defending the
old creed? For many of them it's Calvin's INTERPRETATION of scripture that has replaced a study of the scriptures themselves.
And once you're under that spell there's often no going back.

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(no login)

good news?

July 21 2009, 11:11 AM 

As Lawrence, et al continue their Engedi minsitry calvinism distortions the Great Commission gets reduced to the Great Omission - if you aren't chosen like them you just get omitted by their control-freak Grace God.
You love Him only if he makes you love him.
Doesn't this defy the very foundational concept of what we all understand as LOVE?

The news is good, but only if you're like them.
How is this not akin to the old "We're the only ones going to heaven"
line? I guess the apple doesn't fall far from the tree.

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(no login)

Straight up Calvinism

December 11 2009, 11:43 AM 

Check out the current ENGEDI MINISTRIES
on line web link and you'll see the preacher Tim Alexander as the teacher for their classes starting in January.
Also don't miss the CALVINISM wirte-up and how they say it's one of the best
Systems of theology.
They warned us that it was that.; thanks
Concerned Members.

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(no login)

Good News carols

December 21 2009, 9:58 AM 

Well now that the leaders of the Engedi Ministries,
all members in good standing at this church, have stated
plainly on their CALVINISM thread that they are proud to be part of some resurgence of Calvinism, which they call
'simply the Gospel', let's see how this pans out in real-life. JOY TO THE WORLD has this line: "let every heart prepare Him room". By reading between the lines what a Calvinist hears is 'every chosen heart will have Him forced upon their feeble wills.' And John 3:16 becomes:
"For God so love the chosen - like us - of the world, that whosoever is forced to believe in Him should not perish - like the ones God doesn't choose, but gets some strange 'pleasure' by shipping them off to hell- but have everlasting life.": Good news?

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(no login)

same old thing

December 22 2009, 5:20 PM 

just got home and found an interesting item from a
relative who's trying to ride this thing out at s.s.

it seems that every single adult class as well as the
pulpit are now being taught by calvinists men now
affiliated with this engedi ministries thing.

can it get much more skewed than that?
gonna be a long ride.
b.b.baxter would be rolling over in his grave.

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Ken Sublett
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Review of Tim Alexander's take on Romans

December 22 2009, 7:44 PM 

Romans is a favorite book for the exclusivists who SOMEHOW know that they are predestinated to heaven and not hell.

One of the marks seems to be Baptism as a SEAL so how could you be sealed if you keep calling Christ in prophecy, in practice, in command and all recorded history liars.

I have lumped the whole book of Romans on one page: I will begin anticipating Timmy pretty fast. First, I need to format the verses in my "predestinated" way which confuses some but seems to develop the syllogism (that which they did in ekklesia and synagogue) with a conclusion.

I will try not to let this one get away from me and use lots of links to some of the Engedi's simplistic reading of the New Testament but never looking where Paul points in Romans 9-11 where he pauses and denies that the JEWS were predestinated. He used their failure of falling into musical idolatry at Mount Sinai as their becoming CASTAWAYS and abandoned to worship the starry host. He uses the same failure in 1 Corinthians 10. In 2 Corinthians 3 Paul told the Corinthian Jews that they would not be able to read their Old Testament until they turned, were converted which has the same meaning as baptism.

Romans 3 and 4 is where they fail to look to the examples of justification (does not mean salvation) by Faith only.

Feed me any suggestions you wish and use some fictitious e-mail since there seems to be some fear of the Goat People. I suppose that if they will twist the church house of widows away from them they might be dangerous and assuredly marked as NOT predestinated to where THEY think they are bound.

Ken Sublett

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(no login)

riding it out

January 20 2010, 2:58 PM 

I did not want to wait in hopes of a change in leadership. I'm glad I left because I would have been waiting a long time. There are some really nice folks there that I miss.

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(no login)

Tulip, same old same old

October 21 2010, 4:46 PM 

We were warned YEARS ago, at this very site, about Lawrence's hardcore Calvinist stance and now it can be seen for what it truly is. In his current series of Devotionals (???) his topic is

Enough said?
(9.27.2010) "Most of our readers would know that in the English languate the word tulip is an acronym for the distinctives of the Reformed faith to which we at Engedi are committed."
...(Tulip) refers to a lovely truth which blesses the lives of those who embrace it. I say 'it' because the doctrines must be taken together to be seen as a whole...these doctrines require constant care in explication, defense, and faithful and patient preaching."
(Could it be that way because they can't stand on their own merit?)

In his following Devotional he specifically lays out the TULIP acronym's meanings,(for about the hundreth time; is it a coincidence that it is a 5 Step plan, also?) as well as a lengthy history of John Calvin himself. (insert multiple Yawns, as needed; are we worshipping Jesus or this John C. guy, already?)

The good news? After a short-lived burst periods, this cancerous doctrine, just like the tulip flower, goes into LONG, uninspiring seasons of dormancy and unfruitfulness. This doctrine, even coming from a tiny Church of Christ thinktank, is just another brief belch in its history;
same old same old.

The more things change the more they've stayed the same.
And where does this man attend church regularly?
That's why you found this information on this thread.
Come on, just find you a wilting Presbyterian church and be done with it.

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(no login)

wilting tulip

November 15 2010, 2:31 PM 

this wilting tulip should not be confused in ANY way with a PLAN
of salvation; this is merely a distorted theory of semi-salvation
that has only ONE step: either God chose (i.e. is a respector of
Calvinists' personhood) OR it's off to the fiery gates of hell for you.
End of story. Aah, refreshing engedi waters; curious how that stream literally runs off into the DEAD sea. what a sham; what a shame.

And even more of a shame how it is legitimatized as an option in the
lipscomb community as it is advocated by their professor lawrence (not even a bible professor, of course) who still insists on warming a C of C
pew on sundays at sm. springs. (at least when he's not a guest speaker for the presby's.)

one of the true ironies is that the doctor's LATEST IDEAS actually go back over 15 centuries and was simply rehashed in the DARK ages.
but what average 19 year old non-presbyterian would even know such?

if you'll remember your own impressionable college years it was a lot like the athenians in acts 17:21 who "spent their time doing nothing but talking about and listening to the LATEST IDEAS." (see also II Tim. 4:3)

this recent observation from a former follower is quite insightful:
"he (dr. L) can't retire - he'd lose the significant portion of his audience that's proven to be the most vulnerable. even most thirty year olds can see through the strange manipulation of scripture.
besides all he'd be left to do is play with his spiffy model trains."


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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)

Opps! God must have slipped?

October 21 2010, 9:59 PM 

"Predestination, in Christian theology, the teaching that a person's eternal destiny is predetermined by God's unchangeable decree. Most exponents of the doctrine have maintained that it is only the individual's final destiny that is predetermined, not the individual's actions, which remain of free will. The doctrine customarily takes one of two forms: single predestination or double predestination.
"Single predestination is based on the experience of God's presence and love, and on the understanding that the gift of God's presence is an act of sheer grace. In order to emphasize that the gift is independently willed by God, some Christians have asserted that their relation to God depends only on God and on God's eternal decree established before the foundation of the world.

"Double predestination asserts that, because salvation and glory are predestined, condemnation and destruction must also be predestined. Encarta Online.
One of the worst evils to come into the mind of God was of a people who would put their children in the red hot arms of the iron idol of Molech to be burned up at Topheth, the "king's music grove" which came to stand for hell itself:
And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech;

which I commanded them not,

neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin. Jeremiah 32:35
Sin came into the WORLD and not into either Adam or Eve.

This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address on Oct 21, 2010 10:00 PM

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Outsider Looking In
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May 26 2011, 3:47 PM 

I understand that "Pastor Tim" has departed Smith Springs and Dr. Lawrence has as well in protest of the elders sending him (Tim) packing. Is this true? Is it possible that Smith Springs may be returning "to the fold"?
Just wondering............

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(no login)

things haven't really changed...

June 3 2011, 5:49 AM 

...if Danny Hale is leading the flock in the interim. Their website has new audio lessons by Danny Hale that I am guessing are from the pulpit. If Mr. Hale has anything to say about it, Smith Springs will again find a minister of the TULIP belief.

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Ken Sublet
(Login Ken.Sublett)

I noticed that tim took flight.

May 27 2011, 1:18 PM 

Jesus hid the truth from the sophists: rhetoricians, singers, instrument players and Christ in Exekiel 33 called them hypocrites. He said that truth had been hidden in parables from the foundation of the world to fool the foolish.

You will never love God and appreciated the Bible until you understand parables. Since those who do not love the truth (too many songs and sermons) God will send you strong delusions that you believe a lie. The lying wonders is exactly the HIGH FLYING ritualism Tim promoted in A Church that Flies, loved and adored by too many of the young and restless preachers who missed Bible 101aa. They, too, want to fly. But here is a wonderful picture that makes me a wonderful prophet AFTER you see God making fools out of the foolish who thin they are tasked to ESCAPE the labyrinth of the olden church of Christ following the olden (pre post modern) Bible.

Minos shut up the guilty Daedalus in the labyrinth, along with his son Icarus, who had been borne to Daedalus by Naucrate, a female slave of Minos. But Daedalus constructed wings for himself and his son, and enjoined his son, when he took to flight, neither to fly high, lest the glue should melt in the sun and the wings should drop off, nor to fly near the sea, lest the pinions should be detached by the damp. [13] But the infatuated Icarus, disregarding his father's injunctions, soared ever higher, till, the glue melting, he fell into the sea called after him Icarian, and perished.

[linked image]

You just watch some of the latest spawn of kiddy preachers wax on their wings. Hypocrite always means first of all (Ezekiel 33) slick rhetoricians, singers, players, acters, theater builders and stage (worship) manager. They are NOT sincere or "without wax" so I conclude that they are trying to fly too close to Sun Worship (Apollo, Abaddon, Apollyon) with WAXED ON WINGS.

This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address on May 27, 2011 1:20 PM

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Ken Sublet
(Login Ken.Sublett)

new preacher

May 27 2011, 2:03 PM 

lI notice that Engedi is still their ministry. In the latest on Free Will, David Lawrence denies that there is any free will in the Bible.
Maybe he is look up the phrase "free will?"

Exodus 20:25 And if thou wilt make me an altar of stone, thou shalt not build it of hewn stone:
....for if thou lift up thy tool upon it, thou hast polluted it.
Exodus 20:26 Neither shalt thou go up by steps unto mine altar,
....that thy nakedness be not discovered thereon.

Matthew 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God:
.... but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
Matthew 19:21 Jesus said unto him,
.... If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor,
.... and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

Their creed is still that "baptism is a sign."

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Outsider Looking In
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May 28 2011, 7:45 PM 

I guess I don't understand. If no one in the leadership at Smith Springs is associated with this Engedi stuff how can "it" be their ministry?

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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Re: Confused

May 29 2011, 5:07 AM 

Speaking of "the leadership at Smith Springs," the congregation is in the process of moving its website to -- (from ".com"). Changes are in progress. But, as becoming more and more typical of some of the liberal congregations in our brotherhood, there is no link to the page that lists its elders--of all things so important in the development and growth of a congregation. They have more interest in the church's "social" events and activities than in knowing the leaders who are to feed the flock.

So, at this juncture, I'm not sure if is accurate to state, "If no one in the leadership at Smith Springs is associated with the Engedi stuff...." Personally, I believe that the leadership (if we're speaking in terms of the minister) is "associated with the Engedi stuff."

Our best resource is Ken Sublett. He is very familiar with Smith Springs' situation. Here's a link that should help explain matters more clearly; it's titled "Engedi Ministries Reviewed!":

Here is a disturbing statement from its website, when it speaks of "in our congregation":

In our congregation we have many people who have been blessed by a long heritage with the Stone-Campbell (Restoration) Movement. We have many other people from a variety of Christian backgrounds: Baptist, Methodist, Presbyterian, Catholic ... to name some.
If the expression "we have many other people" is in reference to expected VISITORS or those in serious studies with the truth, then, it is not a problem. But it should be clarified. Otherwise, that leaves us with a serious question of "how one is added to the Lord's church" or "how one becomes a member of the Lord's body"

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(no login)

Someone did not get the memo

May 31 2011, 6:18 PM 

Well it appears that someone did not get the memo.....Engedi has desolved, shut down, is kaput....guess you will have to come up with something new and totally unrelated to Smith Springs to blame them for now!!!! No doubt they will dream up something.

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Ken Sublet
(Login Ken.Sublett)

Just oded on coffee and found this.

May 31 2011, 10:52 PM 

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