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Brian Cade
(no login)

Re: You forgot?

February 11 2012, 4:45 PM 

Proverbs 10:19
When words are many, sin is not absent, but he who holds his tongue is wise.

Matthew 6:7
And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words.

Ecclesiastes 5:3
As a dream comes when there are many cares, so the speech of a fool when there are many words.

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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)

Proverbs 10

February 11 2012, 5:21 PM 

Proverbs ten is intended to be read and understood by definint the Words.It would be nice if those not intending to be a disciple not muddy up Gregs thread. Here is the reason lifting texts is dangerous.

[linked image]

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Brian Cade

February 11 2012, 5:01 PM 

My focus is to continue to study and learn God's way and to reflect His way in my living. Part of that involves diligent study of Scripture and issues that are of the meat and not just the milk of the Word. Sometimes this focus involves being a doer of the Word such as showing love to others, teaching, serving, helping the poor, hungry, needy, etc.

Ken provides, for me, an interesting and in-depth perspective of looking at the Scriptures. I just like to absorb what I can from the overflow of information he provides. I would also be willing to study with you regarding the same topics. If you want, you can take my original post with those questions (including the follow up questions) and give me your perspective and insight as well. None of us may agree on all personal preferences but it is the matters of faith that are key, I believe.

I don't get involved in personal attacks and name calling. I don't have the inclination or the time. Doing that just takes me off of my focus and my goal and it just doesn't seem to reflect patience with each other. So I will respect you and Ken and anyone, regardless of what anyone else chooses to do or say about each other.

I hope you receive this in the loving spirit it was intended.


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john watson smith
(Login johnwatsonsmith)

Always measure by the scriptures

March 8 2012, 2:58 PM 

Consider the passage in Romans 16:17-18 which provides an example that those who those who cause divisions and offenses contrary to Bible doctrine be noted and avoided. The reason why is stated in vs 18 they don't serve God and they deceive the elect. They should not be allowed free access to the faithful church.

Consider the passage in Galatians 1:6-10 which provides another aspect of false teachers. The Holy Spirit through Paul says let them be accursed that teach another gospel and twice says the same thing. That which is accursed is to be noted and avoided. We do not advocate nor promote that which the Bible says is accursed.

Consider the passage in Galatians 2:4-6 which tells us the inspired example is not to submit to false doctrine no not for one hour.

The gist of the matter is that we dismantle and dispose of ideas and concepts that are not taught in the BIble. The reason we do this is that the souls of the elect may be protected from the confusion and wrong attitudes that come from false teaching. We must also identify who is teaching false ideas so that there influence will be negated. It is a matter of loving the truth and preserving the faithful in Gods kingdom.

Comments welcome

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(no login)

Ken, please pull it back

April 14 2012, 1:50 AM 

Ken, my dear friend and brother. The time has come to pull the lense back, to back the camera up and look at the big picture. My fear is that you have become so concerned with the letter of the law that the grace of God is overshadowed.
I grew up and am currently living in a community that is 85% Hispanic and roman Catholic. I know the end result of this slippery slope. I know what happens when people focus on law.
i am a Christian, was raised in a Christian home, and my grandfather was the minsiter of our church (church of Chirst), but my mothers side of the family (aunts, uncles, cousins etc) remained Catholic. Good people whom I dearly loved. And people that followed what they were taught and believed to be what God wanted of them. So.... you had a group of good people who were steeped in obedience, but were oblivious to the basics. That God loved them. That Jesus died to take away thier sins. That they no longer had to live under the yoke of law.
This is what i want to very kindly, very lovingly, and respectfully caution you about. i understand your frustration with changes that some churches are making. But you are loved, and saved, not by your perfect understanding and obedience, but by the perfect love of Jesus.

I love you brother,


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ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)

I do Bible Speak: do what you wish just don't lie to steal churches.

April 14 2012, 11:59 AM 

Legalism is DOING something you call WORSHIP believing that your talent or words TRUMPS the commanded words of Christ. Peter defined false teachers as those who "private interpret" or further expound to AID the Word. It is NOT legalism to NOT do something not commanded, not required and which sows discord. When you impose sermonizers, performance singers or instrumentalists you ARE a legalist and in the words of Jesus quoting Ezekiel a hypocrite. The Kingdom of God does not come with OBSERVATION: that means religious observations.

Lk 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:

What do you find offensive that you need to stop me from posting these facts?

[linked image]

As long as people lie about God and to God in order to steal the property of others, I don't need them to be perfect but just minimally commonly decent.

I quote the Bible and recorded history: what is your motive for wanting that to be pulled back.

A church of Christ has a one piece pattern: based on Christ's description in the wilderness, Jesus direct command, all of the new testament and church history before deliberate sowers of discord imposed the ACT (that legal thing) in the year 373.

The Church of Christ in the Wilderness (remember the Rock?) never participated in the Civil-Military-Clergy complex utterly abandoned to worship the starry host.

As the ekklesia or synagogue A Church of Christ does NOT do acts of worship: they attend The School of Christ from the prophets and apostles.

Acts 15:21 For Moses of old time
hath in every city them that preach him,
being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

Remember that Jesus STOOD UP TO READ and using common decency sat down to allow discussion.
What's bad about warning people about soothsayers (Levites) or Sorcerers (Rev 18)

There is no MUSICAL DISCORD which does not rest on the Jacob-cursed Levites who performed as SOOTHSAYERS with instruments. Why is it important that I NOT warn people that music in the "School of Christ" always intends to manipulate minds and is therefore called SORCERY (Rev 18)

Psalms 150:1 Halal ye the LORD. Praise God in his sanctuary: praise him in the firmament of his power.
Psalms 150:2 Halal him for his mighty acts: praise him according to his excellent greatness.
Psalms 150:3 Halal him with the sound of the trumpet: praise him with the psaltery and harp.
Psalms 150:4 Halal him with the timbrel and dance: praise him with stringed instruments and organs.
Psalms 150:5 Halal him upon the loud cymbals: praise him upon the high sounding cymbals.
Psalms 150:6 Let every thing that hath breath Halal the LORD. Halal ye the LORD.

Latin canto , Neutr., to produce melodious sounds (by the voice or an instrument), to sound, sing, play (class. in prose and poetry; rare in Cic.).
III. In the Language of religion, as v. n. or a., to use enchantments, charms, incantations, to enchant, to charm, Cato, R. R. 160, 1; Varr. R. R. 1, 2, 27: frigidus in pratis cantando rumpitur anguis, Verg. E. 8, 71: cantata Luna, exorcised by magic, Prop. 4 (5), 5, 13. falx, Ov. H. 6, 84: herbae, id. M. 7, 98: ignis, Sil. 1, 430: tum quoque cantato densetur carmine caelum, an incantation, Ov. M. 14, 369.
B.To call forth, produce by charms: et chelydris cantare soporem, Sil. 8, 498: cantata umbra, Luc. 6, 767.


spor , ris, m. Sanscr. root svap-, sleep; cf. somnus;
2. Pregn., the sleep of death, death:A. Stupefaction, lethargy, stupor
Drowsiness, laziness, indifference: C. Poppy-juice, opium

The MEANING of music from mystery is to make the lambs dumb before the slaughter. In the NOT commanded animal slaughter the Levites (soothsayers) performed as EXORCISTS to silence the voice of the victim.

Jesus warned that His Kingdom does not come with observation: that means religious observations. I don't address what others do but what people waged by the Church of Christ who defect and steal the church house of widows.

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(Login BrianCade)

Re: I do Bible Speak: do what you wish just don't lie to steal churches.

April 15 2012, 4:04 PM 

Apparently, this makes sense to somebody.

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(Login BrianCade)

Re: I do Bible Speak: do what you wish just don't lie to steal churches.

April 15 2012, 4:05 PM 

Apparently, this makes sense to somebody. However, it doesn't do a whole lot to spread the gospel.

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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)

What god was worshipped by the Jews and Progressives? Part ONE

May 18 2012, 5:43 PM 

If you can read Acts 7 supported by Christ in many of the Psalms and prophets you will understand that God DID NOT command the Monarchy consisting of Civil-Military-Clergy, the temple, the sacrificial system or the Levite Exorcistists as God's provision to prevent any godly person from even being inside the gates. The SKIA or Shadow defines a "totally erroneous system" and Christ says that they had a Covenant with Death and Hell

And yet, all of the Progressives infiltrating and confiscating the church house of widows are modern day Scribes and Pharisees: Jesus called them Hypocrites and Christ in Ezekiel 33 named performance speakers, singers and talented instrument players.

I don't know a single church father who did not know the difference in the Old testament between:

1. God gave Israel The Book of The Covenant at Mount Sinai but the people refused to listen to God without a mediator (preacher, priest, musician).

2. This Covenant was the only spiritual Covenant made by God in Christ with Abraham and those who walked by His faith.

3. God turned the nation over to worship the starry host: I know of no modern preacher or scholar who can read Acts 7 who repeats the message of Christ in the prophets.

4. Therefore, whatever they claimed about their "gods" the Jews worshipped the starry host and to some extent serpents.

5. The Book of The Law was to regulate the people and provided ceremonial purity to save them in a physical sense: It had no saving power.

6. Christ the Rock provided the Qahal, synagogue or Church of Christ in the wilderness as a School (only) of the Word (only) delivered by Moses and the elders to the smaller groups.

7. The Civil-Military-Clergy complex "profaned" the Sabbath with no effect because God had already abandoned them.

8. The Levites Stood In Ranks to make certain that no godly person ever came near the sacrificial system which Christ says 'God never commanded.'

10. They performed as Soothsayers and/or Sorcerers: they never-musical performance was called EXORCISM and never "worship."

9. The acts of the Monarchy recorded by the Scribes is, according to the Prophets, tainted with lies especially about the Temple and their blasphemy in teaching that God could be fed, clothed, housed and sexually served by hierodules.

10. The Church of Christ is built upon the Prophets (by the Spirit OF Chrixt) and the prophecies made more certain by Jesus and recorded by the Apostles under inspiration.

11. And yet in most of the world's pulpit it is taught at the Sacrificial system including "music" was God's APPROVED PATTERN and that the LAW has not been changed. No public proclaimer who believes that and builds things like getting drunk at Passove should not be allowed out without a leash: they are a prophetic fulfilment.


"Asherah (symbolized by errect poles [Jachin and Boaz] with fertility symbols pouring out the top): She is the Queen of Heaven, in other languages and ages identified as Ashtoreth, Athirat, Astarte, and Ishtar. Yahweh, the Hebrew God elevated to become the sole deity , was Her consort.

Her "male" priestesses were known as kelabim, the faithful "dogs" of the Goddess,

who practiced divinatory arts,
danced in processions,

and served as hierodules, qedeshim,
in the company of other priestesses.

Elements of the goddess worship were largely erased in a cultural purge c. 630 BCE by King Yosiah, at the behest of Yahweh's priests, who required supremacy.

This is the message of Paul denying access by the dogs or concision and warning about women WAVING unholy harms which has to be moderated to prevent WRATH or an ORGY breaking out.

Ezekiel Eight defines a "sun rise service" where the Jews bowed down to the sun in the east. This meant that they had to turn their backs on the temple which they later rejected. At the same time the Women (always) were Lamenting for Tammuz inside of the temple. This is perhaps a God-provided "way of escape" when they same people are happy to define Jesus as a "wine drinker and a party kind of guy."

The Jews rarely celebrated the Biblical Passover which was to remind them of slavery. The adoption of the Babylon festival as the pattern for their "passover" with the cups of intoxicants was rather to celebrate their LIBERTY.

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Re: What god was worshipped by the Jews and Progressives? Part ONE

May 19 2012, 1:49 AM 

Writing fiction again? You need to repent of this twisting of God's word to suit your own agenda.

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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)

What gods were worshipped by the Jews: Part Two

May 19 2012, 11:17 AM 

It seems impossible for the age of self-speak, which gives God in Christ no right to speak, to grasp the story line of the Bible. Paul spoke of the "many" who were interested in Vocational Christianism and promised that they would be delusional. Jesus said that He would not pray for the "world" as the patternism for Christianism and God would HIDE Himself from the wise. Neither of these as brands of paganism can worship a Spirit God in the human spirit ONLY. That is because they substitute all of the fleshley impulses supposed to have been sacrificed or "burned up" on the altar. Reasonable or rational is Word-Centered and is the ANTITHESIS of the Jewish and other pagan worship which sought avenues to God other than through His Word

The kingdom of God does not come with observation: this means "religious observations" or services. This gives a Disciple the power to escape the captivity of everything connected with the Jewish Religion and hear the Spirit of Christ ONLY in the Prophets and Apostles.

If it is not possible to discern from reading Scripture the difference between the Sacrificial System and the Spiritual worship in the Qahal, synagogue or Church of Christ in the wilderness, we note that no early historical scholar before denominational divisions failed to understand. Even Secular Scholars understood that God abandoned the God-denying Jews to worship the Starry Host, and would laugh at anyone so evil as to try to impose any part of the "covenant with death and hell" system on believers.


[linked image]

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(Login BrianCade)

Re: What gods were worshipped by the Jews: Part Two

May 19 2012, 1:30 PM 

More dark ravings of a depraved imagination with no basis in fact.

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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Re: What gods were worshipped by the Jews: Part Two

May 19 2012, 2:29 PM 


I have reviewed the source link:

... and, certainly, Ken quoted the exact black text on white [background]. Noteworthy is the last statement quoted: "The Jews themselves witness no less; for when they keep the Sabbath, they invite one another to drink till they are drunk; or if they chance to be hindered by some more weighty business, it is the fashion at least to taste the wine." [emph., d.c.]

I agree with you, Brian. The scene from ... along with Al Maxey's acceptance of "the Four Cups of Wine" and rejection of the "Law of Silence" would make a great plot for a movie to illustrate and simplify it all for the liberal/progressive mindset or imagination.

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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)

God Jews Part Three

May 20 2012, 4:54 PM 

[linked image]
If ALL recorded history cannot prove to you that the Jewish Monarchy had been abandoned to worship the starry host (Acts 7), and that God had never commanded any one to make animal sacrifices. When God Tested Abraham Mount Moriah meant that GOD HAS PROVIDED. That did not prevent Solomon from building a temple (altho there is not a shard of pottery to prove that it ever existed and Christ warned about the 'lying pen of the Scribes' writing about the temple. That does not prevent their Spiritual Descendants from trying to prove that God APPROVED of the sacrificial system WITH instruments and "that is a command for us today."

Thus saith the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel,
.....Amend your ways and your doings,
.....and I will cause you to dwell in this place. Jeremiah 7:3

Trust ye not in lying words, saying,
.....The temple of the Lord, The temple of the Lord,
.....The temple of the Lord, are these. Jeremiah 7:4

For if ye throughly amend your ways and your doings;
.....if ye thoroughly execute judgment between a man and his neighbour; Jeremiah 7:5

If ye oppress not the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow,
.....and shed not innocent blood in this place,
.....neither walk after other gods to your hurt: Jeremiah 7:6

Then will I cause you to dwell in this place, in the land that I gave to your fathers, for ever and ever. Jeremiah 7:7

Behold, ye trust in lying words, that cannot profit. Jeremiah 7:8

Will ye steal, murder, and commit adultery, and swear falsely,
.....and burn incense unto Baal,
.....and walk after other gods whom ye know not; Jeremiah 7:9

> For I spake NOT unto your fathers, nor commanded them the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt,
.....concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices: Jeremiah 7:22
> But this thing commanded I them, saying,
.....Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people:
.....and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you,
.....that it may be well unto you. Jeremiah 7:23
> But they HEARKENED NOT, nor inclined their ear,
.....but walked in the counsels and in the imagination of their evil heart,
.....and went backward, and not forward. Jeremiah 7:24

I hope you do not call the Spirit OF Christ a liar.

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ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)

What God was worshipped by the Jews and musical performers: Part four

May 22 2012, 4:15 PM 

Any Simple Simon Bible reader would at least confess what the Stephen said and the Jews affirm: the Jews worshiped the Starry Host as well as serpents as we have shown in Ezekiel 8:13 where they worshipped the Babylonian Tamuz and Innana or Ishtar (Easter) and the men BOWED to the rising sun in the east and TURNED their back on the Temple they believed housed God.

Only Sissy Sallys ever worshiped a masculine "god" with any kind of hypocritic arts and crafts: the synagogue was a WORD ONLY Assembly and the Church of Christ is NOT different for anyone capable of reading the CLEAR COMMANDS.

Ovidius Naso, History of Love OUTED in a church near you

[linked image]
[linked image]

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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)

Re: Ken Sublett

May 24 2012, 12:00 PM 

All of the "progressives" build on the foundation of the Law of Moses. Even though Christ said that God DID NOT command sacrifices or burnt offerings, they say that the accompanying instrumental "noise" is "a" spirit telling them that God commands "instrumental praise" in MY congregation.

When the Israelites refused to hear The Book of The Covenant of Grace, they fell into musical idolatry.
As a result God gave them The Book of The Law and sentenced them to captivity and death in Assyria and Babylon
He gave the Levites to EXECUTE 3,000 instrumental idolaters: The COMMAND was to use instruments to warn people that they would be executed if they came near the Jacob-Cursed Levites or had ANYTHING to do with their assemblies. Moses proves that Israel (Jews) had been abandoned to Sabazianism or the OLD New Wineskins gods. Leaders of small groups as small as ten persons were to be gathered (Church of Christ) for instruction only: vocal or instrumental rejoicing was outlawed because this would be a MARK of people who had despised the Word and had been consigned to the Babylon mother of Harlots (Rev 17) who used "lusted after fruits" as rhetoricians, singers, instrument players, religious teknokrats and the Brides-Bridegroom-Grinders would identify the MUSES and GRACES as sacred prostitutes.

Deuteronomy 18:15 The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee
..... a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;
Deuteronomy 18:18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee,
.....and will put my words in his mouth;
.....and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
Deuteronomy 34:10 And there arose not a prophet since in Israel like unto Moses, whom the LORD knew face to face,

Acts 3:17 And now, brethren, I wot that through ignorance ye did it, as did also your rulers.
Acts 3:18 But those things, which God before had shewed the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled.
Acts 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out,
.....when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
Acts 3:20 And he shall send Jesus Christ,
.....which before was preached unto you:
Acts 3:21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things,
.....which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
Acts 3:22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers,
..... A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.
Acts 3:23 And it shall come to pass,
.....that every soul, which will not hear that prophet,
.....shall be destroyed from among the people.

.....Acts 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized:
.....and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

Acts 3:24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.
Acts 3:25 Ye are the children of the prophets,
.....and of the covenant which God made with our fathers,
.....saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.

.........Galatians 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant,
.............that was confirmed before of God in Christ,
.............the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after,
.............cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
.........Galatians 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
.........Galatians 3:27 For [what I mean is] many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
.........Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free,
.............there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
.........Galatians 3:29 And if ye be Christs, then are ye Abrahams seed,
.............and heirs according to the promise.

Acts 3:26 Unto you first God,
.....having raised up his Son Jesus,
.....sent him to bless you, in turning [Converting] away every one of you from his iniquities.

Christ prophesied and Jesus repeated that the ONLY way He will remit sins or save is by baptism as obedience to a direct command.

[linked image]

Acts 7:37 This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel,
.....A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, unto me; him shall ye hear.

Acts 7:38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness
.....with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina,
.....and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

Acts 7:39 To whom our fathers would not obey,
.....but thrust him from them, and in their hearts turned back again into Egypt,

Acts 7:40 Saying unto Aaron, Make us gods to go before us:
.....for as for this Moses, which brought us out of the land of Egypt,
.....we wot not what is become of him.
Acts 7:41 And they made a calf in those days,
.....and offered sacrifice unto the idol,
.....and rejoiced in the works of their own hands.

Euphrain , Ep. euphr-, fut. Att.155.12, Pi.I.7(6).3
Pind. I. 6 Just as we mix the second bowl of wine when the men's symposium is flourishing, here is the second song of the Muses for Lampon's children and their athletic victories: first in Nemea, Zeus, in your honor they received the choicest of garlands,

Christ in all of the prophets DENY those who claim that the Law of the Monarchy gives THEM the power to impose THEIR OPINION on other people:

> For I spake NOT unto your fathers, nor commanded them
..... in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt,
..... concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices: Jeremiah 7:22

> But this thing commanded I them, saying,
.....Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people:
.....and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you,
.....that it may be well unto you. Jeremiah 7:23
> But they HEARKENED NOT, nor inclined their ear,
..... but walked in the counsels and in the imagination of their evil heart,
.....and went backward,

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Steve B.
(Login sb6783)


June 21 2012, 9:59 AM 

I am embarrassed to ever have been associated with legalistic Churches of Christ. I see no difference in these grumblers than the Pharisees of Jesus's day. Why do you suppose the New Testament is so full of teachings from Jesus himself about the Pharisees? Because our sinful nature will cause us to drift in that direction until we are blind to anyone trying to show us more truth. I still need to learn and some things I've been taught could be wrong. The Bible does actually predict that in the last days, "Good will be called evil, and evil, good." Why would we call a church EVIL and worshippers of BAAL because they sing with a piano? God predicted this will happen!

I have read the Bible from cover to cover and I see nowhere the arguments I see written on this PUBLIC (for non-Christians to see) website. False teachers were people who denied that Jesus came in the flesh and did not accept him as the Son of God. Yes, Jesus taught many other things, but the judge of whether a person is following his teaching is left up to HIM and our HEAVENLY FATHER, not imperfect, arrogant, men. Why can't we let God be the judge and focus where WE LIVE on reaching the lost in this sin-ridden world? WAKE UP!!!

The Bible discusses instrumental music throughout its pages. It is not a sin. It is simply a matter of opinion! Not only is it used throughout the Old Testament, notice these scriptures in the New Testament:

1 Corinthians 14:7 "Even in the case of lifeless things that make sounds, such as the flute or harp, how will anyone know what SONG is being PLAYED unless there is a distinction in the notes?" The context is speaking in tongues, but is it possible Paul could have been pointing to their instruments in the Corinthian church to make a point? Could the song he's referring to be a hymn? Just a thought. Just think about it.

Revelation 5:8 "...the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one HAD A HARP...And they SANG a new SONG: 'You are worthy..." It doesn't say it was "like a harp," it said it WAS A HARP!

Revelation 15:2-3 "They held harps GIVEN TO THEM BY GOD and sang the song of Moses the servant of God and the song of the Lamb..." Now, would God actually give an instrument to anyone if it was sinful??? Maybe I'm dense but it sounds like they were singing with an instrument. Doesn't this maybe suggest that it is a possibility it is not something we should be arguing about? Give people grace...So, it was approved in Old Testament times, will be used in Heaven, but during this short period in history, it is a sin and will cause you to be in Hell??? What kind of God do we serve?? He is not trying to trick us into slipping up. He loved us enough to die for us WHILE WE WERE STILL SINNERS...come on, again I say, WAKE UP!! There are many more scriptures being violated that I read about on this shameful website. Are we that blind???

One more point...In Psalms 108, the same wording is used as in Ephesians 5:18-19. Notice, "My heart is steadfast, O God; I will sing and make melody with all my soul. Awake, harp and lyre! I will awaken the dawn." Now it is obvious that "sing and make melody with all my soul" includes the harp and lyre. THAT IS WHAT THE TEXT SAYS. So, Ephesians 5:19 could include singing and making MELODY with an instrument. Just think about it... The Bible doesn't say, so we should not either! Leave it to each individual conscience.

It goes to show this argument is not as simple as some want to make it, and a church that uses instruments with their singing is certainly not apostate, and it is wrong to say they are! They are trying to follow God to the best of their ability. If they are not, and have some other motive, GOD WILL JUDGE THEM, NOT MEN.

The Bible does; however, teach us to "avoid foolish controversies," "arguments" and words that do not "build people up." It is a very dangeous thing to "condemn" someone and take the mind of God upon OURSELVES. Jesus said that, "With the same judgement you judge others, you are going to be judged." Do any of us do EVERYTHING the Bible commands? If it were not for God's grace we would all be eternally lost. Can't we give our brothers grace on these foolish arguments? I would rather err on the side of grace and accept someone whom God has not, than to condemn someone whom God has accepted.

I'm sure I will be labeled a false-teacher, but can't we seek unity and allow matters of opinion to be treated with love? We will never have unity in the body of Christ, if everyone has to agree on every little detail. The non-negotiables are: "There is one Lord, one faith, one baptism." The Bible is clear. Where the Bible is not clear, let's show patience and love so the world may know that God sent Jesus for us. I have decided that is going to be my goal. For God's sake, "Stop devouring and back-biting one another, or we will be consumed by one another."

(We are all part of the American Restoration Movement and have come to the conclusions we have because of that. Someone taught us the views we have. Could we have been taught wrong? At least consider the idea. Many of us have crystalized into a religious sect. That was never the intention of "Going back to the Bible."
We are sadly, now, just another denomination that was so strongly taught against.)


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Ken Sublett
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June 21 2012, 8:44 PM 

That sounds awfully sweet but you have to grasp that Ronnie has been part of a band of spiritual terrorists destroying my best work in Seattle and then reaching into the deep woods of Tennessee. These men intentionally worked with the NACC and thought that they would restructure ALL churches of Christ into instrumental churches.

As the purpose of a ten year deliberate program the truth was no longer taught making traitors of those who bled widows and honest workers so they could build a new "temple." As soon as financially feasible they tell everyone THEIR new agenda kept hidden as the "frogs were boiled." Ronnie Norman got his false teachings from Rick Atchley who finally canfessed what we knew a decade ago.

They spend massive amounts of money and sowed massive discord breaking up churches and church families. They planned to sow discord to chase out the owners so they could turn THEIR church into, as they boasted, "a theater for holy entertainment.

There is no command, example or inference of God's people ever assembling for a musical performance: the Temple as Ronnie's pattern is that of a people abandoned to worship the starry host. Vocal or instrumental rejoicing is outlawed for the qahal, synagogue or Church of Christ in the Wilderness. Simple, church was never more than A School of the Word.

Rick Atchley: The era of the progressive Church of Christ is over.

The generation of Boomers has enough denominational loyalty that theyre going to find the least legalistic

Well, we discipled the children of those progressive churches
.....for a whole generation to grow past us Boomers.
.....They never heard the sermons we heard.
.....They never heard the rationale for a cappella music.

We sent them to youth rallies and Church of Christ events
.....with some of the finest Christian bands in the world.
.....We discipled our children to leave our Movement!

You don't have to be so devious unless you are intentionally betraying those who feed you.

However, all of their new teachings came from a list of isolated "instrument" passages from the Monarchy which is the pattern of "God having turned them over to worship the starry host" with no possible redemption.

No one PLAYS harps: from Revelation 14 all of the SOUNDS LIKE create panic mostly in warfare. When you hear these sounds "in the air" then the Angel tells those still LIVING to "preach the gospel" because judgment is coming soon.

Symbolic language can fool you if you don't understand the words.

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This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address on Jun 21, 2012 8:59 PM

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Ken Sublett
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Ephesians: no unity in diversity.

June 21 2012, 8:57 PM 

The non-negotiables are: "There is one Lord, one faith, one baptism.

Your friends add two Preachers, 10 "ministers", 20 singers, 10 instrument players, 1 make-up person, 2 audio manipulators and about $50,000 for converting into a theater.

If you will look at Ephesians 4 Christ ordained certain men (no sermonisers or musicians) to carry out the pattern of the Synagogue or Ekklesia commanded to "use one mind and one mouth teaching that which is written for our learning." These do not do "worship rituals."

The purpose of these men was to EXCLUDE the cunning craftsmen: these are defined clearly as rhetoricians, instrument players and actors" whom Jesus called hypocrites by quoting Isaiah and Ezekiel 33.

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Ken Sublett
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Re: Ephesians: no unity in diversity.

June 22 2012, 9:02 PM 

1 Corinthians 14:7 "Even in the case of lifeless things that make sounds, such as the flute or harp, how will anyone know what SONG is being PLAYED unless there is a distinction in the notes?" The context is speaking in tongues, but is it possible Paul could have been pointing to their instruments in the Corinthian church to make a point? Could the song he's referring to be a hymn? Just a thought. Just think about it.

In 1 Corinthians 4 Paul repeats what he always teaches as a way to separate the Disciples of Christ (only) from the ancient and modern pagan worship rituals. I will expand and post this later but for now, the Latin version reads.

1Cor. 14:9 So likewise ye,
.....except ye utter by the tongue
.....words easy to be understood, shall it be known what is spoken?
.....for ye shall speak into the air.

sermo , nis, m. 2. sero, qs. serta, conserta oratio, I. a speaking or talking with any one; talk, conversation, discourse: Of prose as opposed to poetry:

On the other hand, those who SPEAK into the air are identified by the word:

1. To speak out, to say, tell, talk about, mention, utter, name:
quas tu mulieres quos tu parasitos loquere,mollia discordi strepitu virgulta loquuntur, make womanish, render effeminate as a term of reproach, a woman, i. e. a coward, poltroon:

There is a lot of laughing at the persona of the new rhetoricians and "musical worship ministers" (a blasphemy of the Spirit OF Christ in theprophets)

All religious musicians were called PARASITES: That's what Christ said in the prophets of the Scribes and Pharisees. Jesus called them hypocrites which in Ezekiel 33 names self-preachers, singers and instrument players. Why would that be judgmental?

parastus literallly one who eats with another; hence,
Hence, parasitus Phoebi, a player, actor
II. In partic., in a bad sense, one who, by flattery and buffoonery, manages to live at another's expense, a sponger, toad-eater, parasite

Since there is no role or dole for preachers who attempt to collect people rather than just preaching the gospel AS IT HAS BEEN TAUGHT, wouldn't you say that one who deliberately chases away the lambs so that he can exult in what has always been an evil persona is a PARASITE?

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...........................THE BOOK

What Happened At the Madison Church of Christ?

There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

To even start to understand whats happening here, you must read the background materials in the first of the book.

This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our web site;

Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)

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