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SPEAKING psalms, hymns and Spiritual Odes

March 10 2012 at 4:05 PM
Anonymous  (Login Ken.Sublett)
from IP address

I am starting a new thread because people are skeptical about defining Psalms, Hymns and Spiritual Odes the as not defining "musical worship" when the assembly is clearly defined as a School of the Word of Christ in the Prophets and Apostles.

Greg: I have posted the "overkill" data on the meaning of Hymns. You can click on most of these links and go to the real literature to validate the fact that hymning was SPEAKING unless one adds SINGING and then a word for HYMN. Harps or Lyres are always excluded and flutes must be added to the words for hymning. There is no single word for singing and playing and the name of an instrument.

Being a disciple means I have no interest beyond reading the text and seeing what the words meant to the writers of the time.

I have posted some data on Speaking Psalms Hymns and Odes here.

Follow up question on the viewpoint of no command to sing...

What is the Greek word used in Acts 16:25 for "sang hymns"? Is that the singing we understand. If it is then Paul and Silas were singing and praying? And it had to have been out loud as "the prisoners were listening." I don't want to assume too much here but they are Apostles and "two or more were gathered." Wouldn't this event constitute a worship service with singing out loud as part of it?

They "hymned"" which has various meanings: here it means "reciting a form of the Law" and means to recite hymns which were types in the BOOK of Psalms. Like all such words it is without singing unless indicated, never means with a lyre and with a flute only when intending to create anxiety.

When Jesus and the apostles "hymned" the word is DICO or speak. There is no word which INCLUDES a musical instrument unless one commands to [1] hymn [2] WITH a named [3] instrument. Any simple simon would know how to command group singing WITH a musical instrument. To try to force the Spirit to give us aid and comfort for sowing discord and stopping the teaching-admonishing pattern would seem to be blasphemy. Jeremiah 23 has Christ defining saying something that God did not say is blasphemy.

Additionally, I Cor. 14:26 regarding orderly worship alludes to, and some versions actually use the word "sing" in part of what occurs when the church meets together. Is it too much of a stretch doctrinally to infer some idea or possible command of singing from these passages from example and direct inference? I know nothing of the Greek here. I don't want to bind a command to sing if there really isn't one, but want to look further at your position of singing not being required by God for the worship.

We have a historical record of the first introduction of singing (other than speaking psalms) as an ACT of liturgy in 373 long after Constantine began paying pagan priests to become clergy often without baptism.

Hymnody developed systematically, however, only after the emperor Constantine legalized Christianity (AD 313); and it flourished earliest in Syria, where the practice was possibly taken over from the singing by Gnostics and Manichaeans of hymns imitating the psalms. The Byzantine Church adopted the practice; in its liturgy, hymns maintain a much more prominent place than in the Latin liturgy; and Byzantine hymnody developed complex types such as the kanon and kontakion (qq.v.; see also Byzantine chant). Saint Ephraem--a 4th-century Mesopotamian deacon, poet, and hymnist--has been called the "father of Christian hymnody." Britannica Online

In the West, St. Hilary of Poitiers composed a book of hymn texts in about 360. Not much later St. Ambrose of Milan instituted the congregational singing of psalms and hymns, partly as a counter to the hymns of the Arians, who were in doctrinal conflict with orthodox Christianity. In poetic form (iambic octosyllables in four-line stanzas), these early hymns--apparently sung to simple, possibly folk melodies--derive from Christian Latin poetry of the period. By the late Middle Ages trained choirs had supplanted the congregation in the singing of hymns. Although new, often more ornate melodies were composed and many earlier melodies were elaborated, one syllable of text per note was usual. Some polyphonic hymn settings were used, usually in alternation with plainchants, and were particularly important in organ music.

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Re: SPEAKING psalms, hymns and Spiritual Odes

March 10 2012, 11:28 PM 

"And when they had sung an hymn , they went out into the mount of Olives." - Matt.26:30

"And when they had sung an hymn , they went out into the mount of Olives." - Mark 14:26

"Take a psalm, and bring hither the timbrel, the pleasant harp with the psaltery." - Psalm 81:2

"Sing unto the LORD with the harp; with the harp, and the voice of a psalm." Psalm 98:5

Seems Like your "facts" are off by a couple of centuries. Did you make this up too?

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ken sublett
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I forget?

March 11 2012, 4:23 PM 

I forget? which of those involved congregational singing with instrumental accompaniment.

If they toss you in prison you can sing to your heart's content. happy.gif

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Brian Cade
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Re: SPEAKING psalms, hymns and Spiritual Odes

March 11 2012, 12:13 AM 

What is the Greek word used in Acts 16:25 for "sang hymns"? Is that the singing we understand. If it is then Paul and Silas were singing and praying? And it had to have been out loud as "the prisoners were listening." I don't want to assume too much here but they are Apostles and "two or more were gathered." Wouldn't this event constitute a worship service with singing out loud as part of it?

The Greek word is "humneo", meaning "to sing the praise of", "sing hymns to", "to sing a hymn",or "to sing" (Strong's 5214), from "humnos" meaning "a song in the praise of gods, heroes, or conquerors","a sacred song",or "hymn". There is no doubt Paul and Silas were making vocal music. Whether we would recognize it as such 2000 years later is another matter. Melody and harmony as we know them didn't develop into their recognizable forms until well into the eleventh century.

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Ken Sublett
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We answered that on another thread:

March 16 2012, 11:50 AM 

When one PRAYS it is nice to know WHAT is being prayed.
Hymns are PRAYERS: you can do silent prayer, you can pray OUT LOUD. The prisoners UNDERSTOOD the prayer. The prayer was one of the HYMNS which even children would have learned. Prayers in the Bible most often quote the text.

Hymns never include SINGING or PLAYING.
IF YOU SING a HYMN it takes two words. Sing is not in the text so the CONTENT of their prayers were HYMNS. If you want to tell someone to SING and then define a HYMN as the content it takes two words:

aoids humnos

Humnos means "without the flute" or "without the lyre."

We look for an example and when the writer intends that you SING A SONG he MUST use two words or a compound word:: there is no command, example or remote inference in the Bible that anyone SANG a HYMN. Remember that in Ephesians 5 the command is to SPEAK hymns. No one could accidentally make that SING HYMNS. The word SPEAK as LOGOS excludes poetry or music.

Homer, Odyssey 8:26: and do ye heat for the stranger a cauldron on the fire, and warm water, that when he has bathed and has seen well bestowed all the gifts which the noble Phaeacians have brought hither, he may take pleasure in the feast, and in hearing the strains of the song.

No one ever attributed anything but pleasure to music much like that of eating and drinking wine.

Hesiod Works and Days:
Then I crossed over to Chalcis, to the games of wise Amphidamas where the sons of the great-hearted hero proclaimed and appointed prizes. And there I boast that I gained the victory with a song and carried off a handled tripod which I dedicated to the Muses of Helicon, in the place where they first set me in the way of clear song. [660] Such is all my experience of many-pegged ships; nevertheless I will tell you the will of Zeus who holds the aegis; for the Muses have taught me to sing in marvellous song.

If the writer wanted to ADD a musical instrument the expression is:

Humnoi ho kuris hu. pros kitharan deto [aeido] hesttn
Pro means 6. with the accompaniment of musical instruments, p. kalamon Pi.O.10(11).84; p. aulon or ton aulon, E.Alc.346, X.Smp.6.3, etc.; p. luran . . adein SIG662.13 (Delos, ii B. C.); p. rhuthmon embainein to step in time, D.S.5.34.

It is blaspheming the Spirit OF Christ and the intelligence of Paul to CLAIM that they were so illiterate that they could NOT demand the ACCOMPANIMENT of a harp if they wanted to say that.

The reason Paul puts the singing IN THE HEART is that EXTERNAL singing among the pagans who INCLUDED instruments sang like the modern "Praise Teams" just making "Jerky" and falsetto sounds:

Aeido of all kinds of vocal sounds, crow as cocks hoot as owls, croak as frogs, the Locust, twang, of the bow-string, whistle, of the wind through a tree, ring, of a stone when struck, to crow too soon.

When you want to SING to the LYRE the evidence is aeido pros [with the accompaniment of] aulone [flute] luran [harp] sing to a harp. That is, you match your voice to the sound of a single string twang.

The decent people never beat on the strings WHILE they were SPEAKING.

There is no such language in the Bible. These people are enemies of Christ and His Word which is FREE (Isaiah 55) and they are outlawed from SPEAKING THEIR OWN WORDS (Isaiah 58).

This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address on Mar 16, 2012 12:05 PM

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Ken Sublett
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Response to question: can you speak and sing at the same time? NO

March 16 2012, 8:52 PM 

1Timothy 4:14 Neglect not the gift that is in thee,
....which was given thee by prophecy, [teaching]
....with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery.
1Timothy 4:15 Meditate upon these things; give thyself wholly to them;
....that thy profiting may appear to all.

Timothy had no more to do but to GIVE HEED to what he had been taught. Giving heed to the Word is the only way we non-mad people have of giving heed to God in Christ.

If Paul and the Spirit wanted to speak of musical melody the Greek is MELOS and never once PSALLO in any text: Psallo just means "pluck."

What Paul commanded Timothy to do as he commanded him to read the word publically, discuss any doctrinal content and COMFORT those who listened. The melody or grace IN THE HEART where harps dare not go is:

3191. meletao, mel-et-ah´-o; from a presumed derivative of 3199; to take care of, i.e. (by implication) revolve in the mind: imagine, (pre-)meditate.

Melet-a , tauta meleta 1 Ep.Ti.4.15; esp. practise speaking, con over a speech in one's mind, logaria dustna meletsas D.19.255; apologian Id.46.1; also, deliver, declaim (cf. 11.5 b), logous

I'm not against singing with or without instruments but Jesus asked "could you not tarry with me for one hour." The response in almost all churches is NO!

This collection of links to REAL literature is included in:

Jesus said the Kingdom of God is WITHIN US and WILL NOT come with religious observation or "worship services." The Campbells tried really hard to restore the church as A School of Christ.

[linked image]

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Re: Response to question: can you speak and sing at the same time? NO

March 18 2012, 4:07 PM 

None of this is true or believable.

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Ken Sublett
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Speaking is not singing

March 18 2012, 5:25 PM 

Singing is spelled SINGING


Speaking is safe: singing will destroy your vocal cords: ask me.

"speaking employes gliding vowels....transistions from one to the next. Singing is phrased such that vowels are held longer (to the note) which more or less erases regional accents. In singing, vowels tend to sound more like their true sounds (monophthongs), rather than diphthongs.

From the National Center for Voice and Speech:

How come when people with a strong regional accent (i.e., Southern) or stuttering problem don't manifest it when they sing?

When people speak with an accent, they produce the vowel sounds differently than the person identifying them as having an accent. When singing, the vowels are prolonged and those differences are minimized.


Aristotle: Melody Deceives: "Poets also make use of this in inventing words, as a melody "without strings" or "without the lyre"; for they employ epithets from negations, a course which is approved in proportional metaphors..

The form of diction should be neither metrical nor without rhythm.

If it is metrical, it lacks persuasiveness, for it appears artificial, and at the same time it distracts the hearer's attention, since it sets him on the watch for the recurrence of such and such a cadence..

According to Philo, the gods of the pagans exploit this weakness of men. For the sake of a better effect, and with the intention of more easily cheating their devotes, that they have set their lies to melodies, rhythms and meters.."

That is the mark of failing to listen effectively in the bible and lots of recorded history. That's why God delivered His Spirit (breath, word) to the SON without METER. I know that is the correct rendering of METRON because there is no meter in the whole bible. If you obey the direect command to "speak that which is written" you CANNOT use meter. But because no one speaks that which is written in song or sermon they have been abandoned to their own self will.

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Re: Speaking is not singing

March 23 2012, 10:43 PM 

Is this why every time you don't get your way about something you have a "laded burden", whatever that might be? Sounds like a fancy term for temper tantrum. Grow up.

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Brian Cade

March 27 2012, 4:57 PM 

So is it your opinion that they were singing vocally together like we would think of singing? I understand there may not have been melody as such but singing nonetheless? Or is it possible they were more like what we would call "chanting" or "speaking" as Ken's seems to suggest?

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Re: Brian Cade

March 28 2012, 2:53 AM 

What I know, Greg, is that it was some form of vocal music, probably sung in unison using one of the modal scales. It certainly wouldn't be anything familiar to our ears but it was singing nonetheless. Keep in mind this was two millenia before either Stamps or Baxter were even born.

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Ken Sublett
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March 28 2012, 1:29 PM 

We noted that a HYMN is a PRAYER and ONE TIME after Passover Jesus and the apostles DICO or SPOKE A hymn.

In the synagogue the Cantor was the PRAYER-leader/ TEXT speaker.

I.2. A. Raba b. R. Hanin said to Abbayye, "We have learned in the Mishnah [M. Bes. 5:2]: [On a festival day] they do not clap hands, slap the thigh or dance, [lest they come also to play musical instruments].

Ritual music was at first only cantillation, i.e., recitative chanting, of the prose books of the Bible
Later the prayers and biblical poetry were chanted, presumably in a modal system similar to the ragas of Hindu music or the maqamat of Arab music, i.e., melodies with improvisations.

A system of mnemonic hand signs for traditional chant had been developed in [never INSIDE OF] the Temple, and after the Dispersion this became the basis for the development of a system of notation. In the 9th century, Aaron ben Asher of Tiberias perfected the te'amim, or neginoth, a system of accent signs. His notation superseded all other systems and influenced the development of the earliest Christian neumes, which became a precise system, while the te'amim retained their vague character

Nagan: A Neo-Hebraic noun formed from the "pi'el" of the verb "to play strings," "make music"; hence meaning generally "tune," "melody." In the rubrics of the Mazor of the northern uses "be-niggun N." heads a piyyu with the signification "to the tune of N," as does "lan N." () in the southern liturgies. The word is also used to designate a droning, formless intonation set to a text, and, more especially, the particular mellody-type or prayer-motive to which a service is traditionally rendered

An instrumental MELODY (series of single notes) set the chanting of a Psalm but NEVER is used of a literal Harp unless so named. Melody does not mean harmony and is not related to it.

Nagan like ALL "instrumental" terms are always connected to AFFLICTING someone: performance music INFLICTS PAIN which injects the RUNNER'S HIGH. If paul wanted to command MUSICAL MELODY the word is:

melos , eos, to,
lyric poetry, choral songs, is the Greek: [m. ek trin sugkeimenon, logou te kai [and] harmonias kai rhuthmou

2. music to which a song is set, tune, Opposite rhythm opposite Meter, opposite RHEMA

3. melody of an instrument, phormigx d' au phtheggoith' hieron Melody. de kai aulos

You really have to be BENT ON SOWING DISCORD to ignore:

SPEAKING to yourselves
IN that which is writen for our learning

Singing and twanging IN THE HEART (a place)

Into a performance MUSICAL TEAM with or without instruments.

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RE: But!

March 28 2012, 4:45 PM 

Thank you Ken! I think with this last post of yours it is sinking in. I appreciate the breakdown of the Greek wording and the English paraphrasing which helps me put the pieces together. Again I really appreciate the informational resource that you bring to the discussion.

Understand I am seeking the knowledge and truth that transforms our lives into those that more reflect Him. I thank you for your patience with me as I journey through this particular issue.

So I am going to try and sum up to this point. Please feel free to correct anything you see that is amiss.

1) There is no command to sing as we understand singing today. Although there is no command to do it, singing without instruments is not necessarily sinful in the corporate worship.

2) The word "sing" or "singing" in the Bible is actually something more of a chanting or monotone reciting of hymns which are scripture.

3) "Speaking to one another" is the more accurate description of this chanting or monotone reciting, not a melodious harmony of singing.

4) This position of chanting/reciting to one another is backed by history as harmonious singing as we understand it today was not introduced until the 4th century by the Syrians.

Is there any other key point that I have missed or misunderstood so far?



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Ken Sublett
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That's it

March 28 2012, 8:54 PM 

One exception to the 'melodious harmony': the harmony as we understannd it did not begin to develop until about 1250. As I remember, the discovery that they had ten fingers by the monks and professional composers came directly from the very rare pipe organ in some major cathedrals.

While we think that harmony or even tunful singing is "God given" in fact it was not within the thinking of earlier people in any sense of the word. I heard from a preacher who spends or spent lots of time holding singing schools in Baptists churches: He discovered that there is no inherited traits to help a group to sing 4 part harmony.

The magadis was a harp with 20 strings. However, SINGING was magadizing so that low male and high females or children could still sing in UNISON.

ma^ga^d-iz ,
A. play the magadis, Theophil.7.
II. of a choir, sing a succession of notes in octaves, m. en t dia pasn sumphnia Arist.Pr. 921a12, cf. 918b40.

sumphn-ia , h,
A. concord or unison of sound, tn en t d harmonian, d s. kaleitai Pl.Cra.405d; h gar harmonia s. esti, s. de homologia tis Id.Smp.187b, cf. R.430e; logos arithmn en oxei barei Arist.AP0.90a18, cf. de An.426a29; krasis esti logon ekhontn enantin pros allla Id.Pr.921a2.
2. of two sounds only, musical concord, accord, such as the fourth, fifth, and octave, Pl.R.531a, 531c; h dia pasn s. Arist.Pr.921a13, cf. Hp.Vict.1.8; distd. from mere homophnia, Arist.Pol.1263b35.
3. harmonious union of many voices or sounds

That wouldn't be such a big deal if so many people did not spend their waking hours trying to justify something that needs justifying because the historical fact--reports Donnie--is that they always sow discord and is the major source of discord.

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Re: That's it

March 29 2012, 1:12 PM 

Ken thanks for correcting my point #4. Once I had sent it I realized that the idea of singing instead of chanting was 4th century Syrians, but melodious singing was more like 13th century or so.

Ok Ken final thought on singing vs. speaking discussion. Is it possible that the word "speaking" to one another is a figurative instead of literal usage in the Greek? For example some today can say that a certain painting "speaks" to them. Of course the painting doesn't actually speak but the figurative sense is understood. So is it possible that the "speaking" we do during singing of hymns to one another is the encouraging, challenging, etc from the words of the song? I just wondered if you had ever encountered this idea from this passage and what your thoughts were.

Thanks in advance!


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Ken Sublett
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Speaking is speaking

March 29 2012, 4:02 PM 

The synagogue or Church of Christ in the wilderness is defined inclusively and exclusively. Earlier writers understood that "singing and melody was IN THE HEART." Since Worship can only be IN the mind or spirit, it tool men like Niceta to give people permission to "Sing IN THE ASSEMBLY." He used the "it is not specificially outlawed."

[linked image]

Luke 4:16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up:
.....and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day,
and stood up for to read.

Acts 15:21 For Moses of old time
.....hath in every city them that preach him,
.....being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

Paul was telling timothy how to conduct ekklesia

1Tim. 4:12 Let no man despise thy youth; but be thou an example of the believers, word, in conversation, in charity, in spirit, in faith, in purity.

1Tim. 4:13 Till I come, give attendance to [public] reading, to exhortation [comfort], to doctrine.

para-klsis , ] calling to one's aid, summons, imploring, appealing,not a mere address to their feelings, but counsel to act rightly, consolation

Heb [18] that by two immutable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we may have a strong encouragement, who have fled for refuge to take hold of the hope set before us.

Jesus is the PARACLETE (Spirit) and only HIS Words give spiritual comfort

1Tim. 4:14 Neglect not the gift that is in thee,
.....which was given thee by prophecy, [teaching]
.....with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery.
1Tim. 4:15 Meditate upon these things;
.....give thyself wholly to them;
.....that thy profiting may appear to all.

2Cor. 3:14 But their minds were blinded:
..... for until this day remaineth
.....the same vail untaken away the reading of the old testament;
.....which vail is done away in Christ.

2Cor. 3:15 But even unto this day,
.....when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.

2Cor. 3:16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, [Baptism]
.....the vail shall be taken away. [Receiving A holy spirit]

2Cor. 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit:
.....and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
2Cor. 3:18 But we all,
.....with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord,
.....are changed into the same image from glory to glory,
.....even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

The direct command is to "use that which is written for our learning" or Scripture (Rom 15)
There is no text which can be sung tunefully.
There is no example of congregational singing until Calvin allowed some psalms (only) to be set to a simple meter to be sung in unison (only) and this was a concession to people accustomed to attending thhe state confiscated Cathedrals and people were hooked on singing or other theatrical performances.

I don't tell people what to do but I don't see how you can stretch any singing type word to endorse congregational singing tunefully "that which is written by Twila or Fanny."

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Ken Sublett
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Re: Speaking is speaking

March 29 2012, 4:14 PM 

[linked image]

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Re: Speaking is Speaking

March 30 2012, 1:27 PM 

I got it. Possibly singing and making melody in the heart describes the "resonating hearts" that "sing with unity" in Him and with each other. Thank you for allowing me to bounce some ideas off of you.

So now that we have arrived at this place of understanding, there are some questions/challenges for the churches of Christ of the 21st century. I think the overwhelming majority sing in the harmonious melodies that we all understand in today's time. While this type of singing in the corporate worship may not be sinful as you point out, I also don't know that any of them engage in the speaking/chanting of the hymn examples that has been established by your research of the scriptures/history.

So I guess then the singing we know of today has replaced the speaking/chanting of the scriptures and history? Do the churches somehow engage in both (contemporary singing and speaking/chanting) either intentionally or unintentionally? Of course, no one knows what every C of C does in every location, but we have a general idea of what happens in most churces.

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Ken Sublett
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Re: Speaking is Speaking

March 30 2012, 2:09 PM 

Because no one that I am aware of other than some Presbyterians who have never changed since Calvin permitted singing tunefully of some REwritten psalms intend to use "Psalms, hymns, spiritual songs" which are all types in the BOOK OF PSALMS, it may not matter what they do.

Romans 15 has the same message as Ephesians 5 and Col 3 without any "musical" note the resurce of TEACHING that which is written or what Jesus commanded to be taught and observed which is "that which is written for our learning.

And since Christians are called DISCIPLES of what Jesus commanded to be taught, the assembly from ekklesia or synagogue is never called a "worship service" but a school of the Word. The "worship" concept Paul uses is "to give heed" or "pay attendance" to the reading of the Word as the only transforming power.

The man who was dying blessed me; I made the widow's heart sing. Jb.29:13

So my heart laments for Moab like a flute;
it laments like a flute for the men of Kir Hareseth. The wealth they acquired is gone. Je.48:36

My heart laments for Moab like a harp,
my inmost being for Kir Hareseth. Is.16:11

And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.Lu.1:47

Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope: Ac.2:26

In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight. Lu.10:21

Wise are sophists: rhetoricians, singers, instrument players.

Plautus, Curculio CAPPADOX My spleen is killing me, my reins are in torment, my lungs are being torn asunder, my liver is being tortured, my heart-strings are giving way, all my intestines are in pain.

Hecuba Alas! a dreadful trial is near, it seems, [230] full of mourning, rich in tears. Yes, I too escaped death where death had been my due, and Zeus did not destroy me but is still preserving my life, that I may witness in my misery fresh sorrows surpassing all before. But if the bond may ask the free of things that do not GRIEVE them or WRENCH their heart-strings, you ought to speak in answer to my questions and I ought to hear what you have to say.

I don't believe that any one back then would think of "Playing a harp IN the heart."

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...........................THE BOOK

What Happened At the Madison Church of Christ?

There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

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Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

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The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

To even start to understand whats happening here, you must read the background materials in the first of the book.

This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our web site;

Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)

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