Hey all,

This is a quite in-depth report which I am making in view of the few months of research I have done into growing taller. This report is not bias and does not in any way contain any brand names. Please note that companies claiming growth and all are likely to be scam sites. Please do not trust them, especially those who claim an increase of height for those who are over 21, or those that come in Lotion form, or give high amounts of HGH ( these will result in facial and physical deformation ).

First of all I would like to clarify some things. It is not possible at all to grow taller ( besides using Limb Extension Surgery ) once the growth plates are fused. Total epiphyseal ( growth plate ) fusion occurs at 20 or, in some individuals up to 25. Any site which claims to open the closed growth plates or promote growth after the age of 21 are likely to be scams.

Second, I would like to say that for those who are below 15 ( and probably, those who are 16 ), there is very much hope for you. Those who are 16-21, there is hope, but the only thing that might help you, from an endocrinologist viewpoint, is estrogen blockers, or aromatase inhibitors. Estrogen blockers, or aromatase inhibitors, will slow down epiphyseal fusion so that you can grow more for longer. Estrogen actually speeds up growth plate fusion. By preventing androgen by being converted to estrogen, you buy more time for you to grow. Without anti-estrogen therapy, one might stop growing totally and irreversibly at around 20 years of age. If one gets on anti-estrogen therapy, one can expect to grow for many years more, and, according to a clinical study, grow 5.1cm taller than estiamted adult height. I hope that before taking anti-estrogen that you seek the help of your physician, or better still, an endocrinologist. If not, the least you should do is to take an X-ray or your hand and verify if you have completed epiphyseal fusion. If that is so, ABSOLUTELY NO DRUG OR THERAPY can help you grow taller besides Limb Extension Surgery. Anti-estrogen, or aromatase blockers, are available widely and might not require a prescription. They should be safe, but given that they deal with the brain, if you experience and neurologic effects like uncontrollable shaking of your hand, stop treatment and seek professional advice. Examples of anti-estrogen can be Letrivole, Tamoxifen and many more.

THOSE UNDER 15-16 ( or about that age )
___________________________________________

For those who are below 15-16, I hate to repeat this, but do seek your doctor's advice you are very short. If the doctor refuses to do anything, seek another doctor's opinion. If all else fails, you can follow what I outline below.

Height is largely based on genetic factors. The smaller factors can be the amount of growth factors in your blood, the function of your pituitary gland and also nutritional and sleep factors. Do note that stretching or excercise has not been proven to result in a permanent increase of height.

As an endocrinologist, I must state that even I and everyone DO NOT AT ALL understand fully the workings of the growth factors. What we know is limited. Let me highlight briefly what we know. We know that height is influenced by several growth factors, such as the amount of Insulin-like Growth Factor 1, the amount of Growth Hormone, the amount of Hormone which stimulates Growth Hormone release, and the amount of other minor growth factors. Testosterone does not in any way lead to increased adult stature. It can kickstart puberty if you have not shown any signs of puberty yet, but it definitely has not been shown to increase adult stature in ANY MEDICAL JOURNALS OR CLINICAL STUDIES. Do note that I emphasize MEDICAL JOURNALS and CLINICAL STUDIES. Whatever you do, do try to find more information from these sources as, chances are, they are scientifically carried out and their results and statements should be quite accurate and reliable.

That aside, let me note what YOU CAN DO to increase your height. This is what is under your control. The options to increase growth factors are

(a) Increase HGH or the hormone which promotes HGH release ( sorry, I don't recall the exact name )
(b) Increase IGF-1 levels

Increasing HGH level is risky at best, and this I cannot say anything about. Why risky? Not only can HGH result in LOWERED FINAL ADULT HEIGHT when taken inappropriately ( it may lead to earlier growth plate fusion and compromised or stunted height ), it can also disfigure you, or make you disproportionate, FOR LIFE. (a) is best done with the monitoring of a medical professional, not by yourself. I have seen cases of HGH injections or oral supplementation being administered wrongly even by medical professionals and this means you should NOT attempt home supplementation of HGH or any pro-hormones, like L-arginine or Creatine.

The safest you can do, without professional advice, is to increase IGF-1 levels. Again, this field is not understood by endocrinologists but what we do know is that many trials have demonstrated that IGF-1 levels correspond to increased height. IGF-1 can be given as injections, and this, I believe, would lead to complete and total absorption into the bloodstream and growth plates. IGF-1 can also be taken orally, without prescription, by taking Bovine Colostrum. Now, I do not know whether the IGF-1 in Colostrum is absorbed into your blood and make you taller. I also do not know the effects of very very high levels of IGF-1 or Colostrum on your final adult height. Therefore, don't act smart or whatever. IGF-1 supplementation is not recommended above 500mg per day. DO NOT TAKE MORE THAN THAT AMOUNT. Besides height-related effects, it is well documented that IGF-1 will lead to increased cell mutation, or a higher cancer risk.

For those around this age, you can also do anti-estrogen therapy, but again, it is risky. I recommend you do not take it yet until you are 16.0 years of age. What you can do is to drink 1 or 2 glasses of milk a day. This contains approx. 20-30mg of IGF-1. This is especially important if you have not started puberty yet. If you have already started puberty, it should still work, and work well it should ( at least, that is what doctors think )

Two more things you can do.

Daily supplemenation of the following nutrients at about these amounts should be instrumental in increasing final adult stature. Also, this is not a joke, but for males, do not ejaculate often. If you do, take some Zinc. Ejaculating will lead to loss of approx. 5mg of Zinc. For one day's dose, try not to exceed 30mg zinc. ( although toxic effects are reported only above 50mg )

The multivitamins below should be safe and should be taken everyday. The nutrients and vitamins and minerals below, have been what I have gleaned from many sources and forums, along with the help of my hospital nutritionalist, to be instrumental to growth.

Thiamin (as Thiamin Mononitrate) 75 mg
Riboflavin (Vitamin B-2) 75 mg
Niacin (as Niacinamide) 75 mg
Folic Acid 400 mcg
Vitamin B-12 (as Cyanocobalamin) 75 mg
Calcium (as Calcium Carbonate) 100 mg
Iodine (as Kelp) 150 mcg
Zinc (as Zinc Oxide) 15 mg
Copper (as Copper Sulfate) 250 mcg
Manganese (as Manganese Sulfate) 6 mcg
Boron (as Boron Citrate) 100 mcg
Choline (as Choline Bitartrate) 35 mg

You might also want to take Potassium, which is found in bananas. All supplements do not carry much potassium as it might cause heart attack ( serious! )

The last one is of course, to get enough sleep. 8 hours of sleep is recommended AT ONE GO. Do not count naps in. 8 hours at night.

Specific to those who are 15.5-16 : You might want to start on anti-estrogen therapy since your plates are already fusing ( maybe halfway thru ). Before that, do a bone X-ray if you want, to determine if growth plates are fused already. ( else you'll be wasting your money ). You should also seek medical help immediately if you are still VERY SHORT. The window for HGH therapy is up to 16, I believe.

Please do follow my advice. I hope you find this useful. If you have any queries, respond to this post. Also, do not believe those scams and those idiots who want to make money only. I understand you are already feeling rotten being short. And I feel appalled that these people want to take advantage of you. That is why I have wrote this article, to help you. This is not a scam or whatever ( this can't be, since there isn't any specific brands or companies mentioned, just drug or nutrient names ). I wish you all the best and hope you will stand tall and free. For those who cannot expect to grow much taller, please do not despair. I had a secondary school friend who was very short. He's 15 and only 155cm. But he was my best friend and provided my a great deal of help and brightened my life a lot ( I had only 6, but close friends in a class of 40 at that time ). He was there when he I needed him and I was there for him when he needed me. He followed my advice. He's now still short, but not very short, standing quite tall at 165cm. Please, don't despair. Height is really not everything. You may be short, but its what inside that counts. Follow my advice closely, do whatever you can to grow taller, but if you still cannot, tell yourself. This is the most I have done. I have done all I can. Now, I'm short. But so? I am happy and free. I hope you can be as much as a sunshine to others as my best friend was, despite my 173cm frame towering over him ( when I was 15 ) ). My best friend has since accepted the fact he's short. He has other qualities though. he makes a good friend, he looks young and cute, he's always cheerful and he never gets depressed when his height is concerned. he's a lighthouse for me, and many others. and hes short.

Dennis - great info and advice. Especially, for those still within normal growing years.

But, seriously, for those whose plates have closed, you can gain height from stretching. (Notice, I didn't say grow taller which, of course, is different).

I am just letting you know this becuase I have done it myself at age 35 - added an inch through a stretching program and know of others who have added more.

One thing to understand about these sites is that people are not just focused on growing taller, but just being taller, even if this means stretchig cartilage, etc. This is something I would say that medical sciene is not so knowledgeable on.

You must have been a very knowledgeable 15 year old to give your friend advice about growing. Do you believe that I person, whose growth plates have fused, can stretch over an extended period of time, say 6 months, and gain an inch or two in height?

Actually, most people like myself in the medical area are very skeptical about claims that certain types of stretching can lead to permanent height increase. As an endocrinologist ( one who studies hormones ), I can hardly say anything about this field. But what I learn in medical school is that once the growth plates ( epiphyseal ) is closed, then permanent height increase is not possible except thru painful limb extension surgery. Temporary height increase CAN be acheived, though it might be lost very quickly.

I heard of some techniques which grant you increased height for a few months, but am not sure if they work. I see that a lot of people here have reported positive results doing stretching excercises. If this is true ( and I think it is ), then it is likely that stretching leads to height increase. But I don't know how this is permanent or temporary and how long it would last.

I'll try to ask my friend, who's an orthopedist, about this matter. He should know much more about this than me. I'll get back asap.

Certainly don't blame you if you are skeptical.

But, I know from my own experience, it can be done. I did a total of 72 different stretching exercises arranged in progressive over, for about 8 months. Gained around an inch at age 35 and have never lost it. I am now 38.

For someone who is short, an inch is great. So, just wanted to let you know. In the end, thought, most people on these boards do need to know they won't grow naturally after the growth plates are fused. So many people are hoping a magic potion, etc will someone how make their bones grow.

I think you should visit the other height increase board that has a link at the top of this forum. So many people are trying this program where they think hanging heavy weights to their ankles will cause their shin bones to grow. I have cautioned people to be careful about this, doing damage to their knees. Of course, I have also saithat there is no way hangng heavy weights to their knees is going to cause their shin bone to grow. No one wants to listen...

I put the reply to my email here. it seems to be possible, though he has certain doubts.. :

Hey,

I'm not sure about these stuff, but here's some background information before I start. I'm not sure whether stretching increases height. Haven't heard of such thing, but I can make some logical reasoning on whether stretching causes elongation of bones.

In med sch, we learned that growth and elongation of long cancellous bones occurs till adolescence. Recap. It works through the working of two cartilage plate, epiphyseal plates, between the diaphysis and the epiphyses. The cartilage plate expand and form new cells, increasing the length of the bones.

However, based on recent studies, we recognise that ossification can last up to 40 years of age. This means that bone can continue to elongate into the 30s. What you have learnt in medical school is actually invalid and wrong.

Claims of permanent increase of bone length are not that out of world as you think. It appears to me that it is actually possible. But you must take care not to put ankle weights and that sort as they create fractures in the bones and this can result in many abnormal bone re-growth conditions which can be very painful. Those who are above 40 should also re-consider this prospect as their bones are harder to heal.

I am not acquainted with this specific area. Though I have doubts that stretching can cause elongation of plates, I think it is possible, with the right method?? Get back to me if you get more information about this topic, so that I can come up with a better response. I wish you all the best on your endocrinological career.

Dr. John A Wilson PhD
Dept of Orthopaedics
Fremantle Hospital

Hey Dennis,

What do you think about inversion (hanging upside down)? I've heard that this will stretch cartilage, which will in turn be forced to grow in an effort to repair itself. The newly grown cartilage would then calcify if Im not mistaken. My brother knows a lady who used this technique back in the 70s (she was in her thirtys I think) and she grew a permanent 1.5 inches (she stoped because she was satisfied with her results). Would you recommend inversion?

Also, I've heard a lot about the method of shin bone lengthening requiring ankle weights that create micro fractures in the shin bone (which supposedly heal resulting in increased height). To me, this sounds like the method used in limb lengthening, what about this shin bone lengthening technique would cause growth deformation?

Thanks

As I said, I am unclear about orthopaedics as I do endocrine systems by profession ( though I got a 4year MD ). Creating 'microfractures' might make you grow taller. By creating fractures in bones, you are hoping that the osteoblasts would form in these 'fractures'? Usually it might take several weeks for osteoblasts ( repair and building tissue ) to fill microfractures with cartilage tissue, and you might experience a lot of pain during this period. Chances of you getting osteoarthritis should be pretty high, especially when the damage process exceeds the repair/regeneration and ossification process. Osteoathritis is a painful condition and it results in bone degeneration ( loss of calcium content ).

thanks for this realstic advise, I am 20 years old, and taking, protein powder and thinking of taking creatine for sporting purposes, however these 2 things do incrrease HGH levels, so i dont know if this is a good thing or not, and I heard cycling can increase the length of the shin bone, if you raise the saddle seat high, do you think this could be possible.Where can i get a xray done, because there want a reason why i want one done, and How will i know if my bones are fused.Where can i get bovine colostrum from,health store, chemicst store.

whith the anti-estrogen or aromatase blockers, can i have some brand names,and does any anti-estrogen come in liquid form, to aborb better, some if i go see a doctor, get a hand xray, to see if bone are fused or not, and if they arnt, should then go for the anti-estrogen supplements. Out of curiousity what increaes the estrogen levels anyways, does creatine and amino acids have a role in doing that. thanks

the protein powder drink i take, increases the IGF-1, which is glyerlean, i also know creatine and other amino acids such as glutamine increase HGH by very alot,which am not sure can be a good thing, am not sure if HGH stunts growth, does it ?

Having too much HGH can compromise how tall you will grow. By taking creatine and prohormones, you lead the endocrine system to produce more HGH. HGH also causes the liver to secrete IGF-1. You can get Colostrum at your pharmacy, or from GNC. Anti-estrogen drugs are generally available only on prescription. You should see your doctor to get a prescription.. About the bone x-ray and an analysis of the results, you should contact the endocrinologist at a medical centre or hospital.

Going back to HGH, the use of it in short adolescents and teens/children who are normal and have no GH deficiency is quite controversial. hGH seems to work well in young people with a GH deficiency, but questions have arisen about whether the same can be said for young people WITHOUT a deficiency. If you are consitutionally short, or genetically short, then it is likely that taking HGH does not help much.

HGH therapy appears to improve the height velocity in many short children, at least in the initial stages of therapy, although it also accelerates bone maturation. This maturation may counteract the height improvements in some patients and may lead your final height to become less. HGH in inappropriate amounts also leads to bone deformation and jaw or facial deformation. So be careful how much you take.

What you should do is to stop HGH and prohormone self-therapy immediately. They don't help with your final adult height, unless you are Growth hormone deficient.

You should :

1. STOP HGH therapy immediately
2. Go on anti-estrogen as soon as possible ( anti-estrogen stops your bone from maturing and hopefully opens a window for your body's naturally produced HGH and IGF-1 to do its work and grow your long bones )
3. Take IGF-1 supplements as soon as possible ( note : IGF-1 increases cartilage and usually it works in increasing final adult height until about 16, but its no harm trying this late. no side effects )

If you are very concerned about your height, see an endocrinologist quickly. You have very little time left to grow. In fact, it is possible you can no longer grow already ( since you have taken HGH supplements, your bone age has become older ).

The last bits of your growth plates are already closing up. By taking HGH, you are accelerating this process and leaving you less time to be able to grow. You have to stop HGH therapy and try to slow down the closing of your growth plates by taking anti-estrogen. If you are very concerend about your height, see a doctor immediately. He can take a bone x-ray to determine your bone age, determine if therapy would be effective, what time of therapy to apply. He might then order a blood test to check your IGF-1 levels which can in turn gauge your GH levels. If your GH levels are low, he might or might not put you on a restricted and controlled HGH therapy ( HGH therapy is too risky at this stage ).

You are 20 now and there isn't much you can do. Follow the advice above. Most importantly, STOP HGH.

Creatine and amino acids ( and L-arginine ) increase GH levels which in turn bring up testosterone levels. increased testosterone levels have been shown to decrease estrogen level. But the paradox is that HGH on ITS OWN leads to faster bone maturation and growth plate fusion! also your doctor might recommend therapy which prevents hypothalamic secretion of somatostatin. by all means, go for it.

Ive only had protein powder for 3 months and I havnt touch amino acids and creatinine as yet, an dont to plan now, cause of your advise, i will follow up your advise straight way, i feel embrassed about seeing a doctor through, i still do it. thanks alot.

Please go see a doctor. There's nothing to be embarrassed of.. You don't have much time left. Its time to do something to fix the problem. What you can do at this moment is to take Colostrum and some Multivitamins and get 8 hours straight minimum sleep. Good luck =)

I was wondering if in your spare time, (I know you are a busy man), you would like to come to Joey's Impartial Height Increase forum and share your expertise. Joey's forum is a legit and scammer-free forum unlike many of the height increase forums out here.

This is the same forum that Sky (Ryan) posts on about the ongoing results of his experiment. I am aware that orthopedics is not your area of speciality but any advice you would have to share with us would be greatly appreciated. The address is http://www.network54.com/Forum/177048.

P.S. I really admire what you are doing here on this forum. Taking the time out to steer people in the right the direction about height increase. I wish there were more physicians like you.

Hi

I would be very greatful Dennis if you could give your opinion on the chance of success i might have, in growing taller. I have seen on growth charts that stature usually increases till the age of 20, the growth chart says by the time i am 20 i should be 183cm. I am 18 and 181cm tall at the moment however i would really like to increase my height to 186-188cm, i havent really ever had a growth spurt as such, i have just grown steadily for the past few years. I have managed to purchase what are supposedly anti estrogen pills (biotest M) as you suggested, i am also eating a very balanced diet and drinking lots of milk.

Do you think my goals are achievable? If so could you have a guess at how long it may take? Is there anything more i could be doing?

hi dennis, i spoke to the doctor, he said i probary done growing,i could grow a few certimeters here and there. am from 5'8- 5'9, i will take the centrum and ive being taken multi-vitaims tablets for the last 2'half months, i drink alot of milk like 6-8 glasses aday, is there anything else i can take like supplements or food that has a anti-esstrogen effect. Is there only the tablets, cause i can try to get that, but it would be very hard to with description. thanks again.

i ment without discription and colosem

A quick question, what are the best Multivitamin tablets? as i am already taking Zinc sulphate.

Thanks James

Hi all, I was unable to reply to your posts quickly because I had to assist in an endocrine emergency.. A girl with hypothyroid has suddenly took a turn for the worse and she started going into myxedema coma. We spent about 2 hours working close to 12 midnight trying to stabilise her condition. The temperature was fluctating, the girl started having seizure. Then she started having difficulty breathing and we had to put her on respirator, only to remove it when the x-ray results came that she had water in the lungs and we had to constantly drain water out. I'll occasionally get some endocrine emergencies like that but I'll usually post back within 2-3 days.

To tobymac :

no problem.. I'll visit it later in the day. I'm amazed by Sky's dedication to his experiments and his informing the public and I think that should be quite interesting. Actually, I was quite short last time, but now I'm about 6', so I thought I should help others. =)

To John :

There is little you can do. Most of the time, those who grow slowly but steadily have a better eventual height as compared to this who grow quickly and just for a short time. I prognosticate/predict your final height without enough information. But I believe you can grow taller by a few cms (1-4cm?)before you stop. You said you grow steadily over the past few years. Are you sure about this? I think your growth rate should be slowing down already. About the Biotest M, I've not heard of it cause I just prescribe anti-estrogens from drug manufacturers, instead of as a supplement. When buying anti-estrogen pills, be sure that they state clearly that there is anti-estrogen or what they call aromatase inhibitor, or estrogen antangonist, or SERM ( diff. types of anti-estrogens ) inside. You might want to get from a reputable brand, or if possible, from a drug manufacturer like Drug Houses of Australia. Since you have already bought the anti-estrogen pills guess you have to stick with it and hope the company means what it says.
Get plenty of sleep and try some Yoga or light forms of excercise. Don't do bodybuilding or weightlifting and avoid prohormones and HGH. Steer away from cigarettes and drugs and live a healthy lifestyle.

To Jay :

You mean Centrum or Colostrum? There's a multivit brand called Centrum by the way. =)
Anyway, drinking 6-8 glasses of milk I don't know if its an overload. I'ld rather stick to 4 or less glasses of milk a day. Also, by taking up aerobic excercises or yoga, you might naturally increase your testosterone levels ( never take testosterone supplements - it limits your final height ). Higher testo. levels would mean lower estro. levels.

To James :

Print out the list and amounts of nutrients I have posted in the report and compare it with the nutritional information in the supplements at a pharmacy. Find something close to those levels. Those vitamins and minerals assist in helping you grow. You can take multivitamins and zinc stand-alone supplements but try not to exceed 20mg for long term supplementation and about 30mg for short term supplementation. Its not that you will not grow as tall. Its just because it can be dangerous to your liver and kidney and can lead to other important minerals being absorbed not as easily. ( leading to magnesium, manganese, potassium, calcium, iron and other deficiencies )

thanks again, my final questions, am from australia by the way, is there any anti-estrogen supplements, i could get, because they stop making biotest m now, i do usually do swimming for 4-5 times a week for 30-50 minutes , but ive been busy,would swimming have a anti-estrogen effect, and this sky person i will be watching his experiments very closely, i have lot respect for the guy and for your advise, with determination something possible, thanks again.

Letrozole or Anastrazole are a type of anti-estrogen called aromatase inhibitors and are generally more effective. But they should require prescription from a doctor. Tamoxifen, a less potent anti-estrogen ( SERM type ), can ordered as "Nolvadex" ( as tamoxifen citrate ). Taking 10-20mg a day is sufficient. Do not exceed the limits.

I personally trust Letrozole and Anastrazole, and prescribe them without giving thought to Tamoxifen. Those do not have as much side effects as Tamoxifen and are generally more effective. Besides, your body will develop a resistance to tamoxifen as soon as one year into therapy..

Besides, the more popular ones, here are 2 others :
Toremifene ( Fareston )
Raloxifene ( Evista )

You should not combine anti-estrogen drugs. Studies have shown that they actually decrease the effectiveness of anti-estrogen therapy. So that one only and stick to it..

A well stocked hospital pharmacy WILL have these but the problem is how to get a prescription. If you are pretty short, that wouldn't be a problem, but if you're already quite tall, no way is a doctor going to prescribe these.

Despite the fact that these are actually MOSTLY for breast cancer patients, they have also been given to those with short stature. There is no side-effect on fertility or anything. ( in fact, it improves sperm quality : http://www.fertility.com/fertimagazine/july04/art04.jsp )

Products marketted as " Health supplements" or "Dietary supplements", I'm not sure. But there is a wealth of information here : http://www.bodyripped.com.au/anti_estrogens.html ( please note from what I read, armidex is also quite effective and is prescribed widely )

I'm not sure if this info is true or not. I'll try find out and see if its correct. If what it says below is correct, then eating more broccoli and cabbages and Brussel sprouts might make you taller!!

DIM/I3C

DIM is short for Di-indolylmethane, which is two I3C molecules bonded together. I3C is indole-3-carbinol a phytochemical found in Brassica vegetables such as Brussel sprouts, broccoli and cabbages. It is known to have potent anti-cancer properties due to its anti-estrogenic activity. DIM is also found in the same vegetables but in smaller quantities.

hey...I always get depressed n sad over my height....I'm only 4"10 n I'm 14 years old...I think it's best if I get doctor's help...but after I convince my parents 2 get me an appointment...the doctor's gonna wanna get a exray of my bones...do u kno bout how expensive ex-rays r?...n I probably wuldn't b able 2 afford n e special vitamins or pills either....I've been streching, jumproping, riding my stationary bike for 2 weeks...n I didn't get n e taller...since ur like a doctor....do u know other natural ways 2 gain height besides doctor's prescriptions? I don't think I've ever had ex-rays done before...do u know how much they cost?

hey...I always get depressed n sad over my height....I'm only 4"10 n I'm 14 years old...I think it's best if I get doctor's help...but after I convince my parents 2 get me an appointment...the doctor's gonna wanna get a exray of my bones...do u kno bout how expensive ex-rays r?...n I probably wuldn't b able 2 afford n e special vitamins or pills either....I've been streching, jumproping, riding my stationary bike for 2 weeks...n I didn't get n e taller...since ur like a doctor....do u know other natural ways 2 gain height besides doctor's prescriptions? I don't think I've ever had ex-rays done before...do u know how much they cost? n I'm hoping 2 b at least 5"1 before school starts which is August 31st...n I won't have time 2 exercise or strech at all once school starts...cause there'll b too much homework n test 2 study for n after school activities

Hi, it might be possible that you have not had a growth spurt yet. Don't worry about it too much =)

An x-ray is not expensive, as it only x-rays your hand, and not your entire body. The doctor's consultation fees might be more expensive. You can always ask the doctor how much it costs. In the hospital where I work in, it costs A$50 ( US$25 ) to get an x-ray and a doctor's assessment of your bone age.

Prescription drugs and supplements are not as expensive as you think it might be. HGH injections are the one that are expensive and can cost a few thousand dollars a month. I don't think I can afford it even at my current salary. ( which is quite high in australian standards )

I recommend that you go under a simple one-a-day multivitamin formulation, with the contents and amountslike in my report ( scroll up.. ). The ones from GNC are quite suitable for your purposes. I'm not endorsing GNC products but the contents of their multivitamins are quite suitable. ( note: don't go for 'children' vitamins, go for the 'adult' ones )

A multivitamin can cost you US$10-U$25 a month. Chrysin ( anti-estrogen ) supplements can cost you US$10-30 a month ( I just checked the pharmacy ). Colostrum would be very helpful for you at such a young age, and costs only about US$10 a month! Colostrum and multivitamins can not only make you taller, but can boost your immune system, give you some added energy and might even be good for your skin! Your body will definitely work better with multivitamins and colostrum. About chrysin, it might not be the time to take it yet. Maybe wait till your 15th birthday.

Also, if you want to get a hand x-ray and a doctor's opinion, remember to ask him what your 'bone age' is. Once I have that, I can roughly carve out to you specifically what you should do.

Do some excercises like hiking and maybe take up Yoga ( yoga naturally increases your testosterone levels ). Stay out of 'androgens', 'HGH', 'GHRH', 'testosterone", 'amino fuel', 'amino acids', 'prohormones', etc. Those can make your eventual adult height even shorter.

Don't smoke, don't drink and definitely don't take drugs. Drink 1-3 glasses of pasteurised milk a day. Live a healthy lifestyle and sleep well.

Just to add : Chrysin and some other anti-estrogen 'dietary supplements' might result in increased testosterone levels and that is not what we want. We want testosterone levels to remain the same, but estrogen levels to decrease. Femara ( Letrozole ) and Tamoxifen does not usually cause an increase in testosterone levels. The other ones I am not that sure. Perhaps someone can shed some light on this.

Aromatase inhibitors generally increase naturally circulating testosterone levels slightly ( by 20-30% ). But for chrysin, it is not clear how much testosterone levels are increased. It appears to me that chrysin should similarly exhibit these effects, but to what extent.

Note : aromatase inhibitor treatment for short stature is ok as 20-30% is really NOT a lot. if unsure, go for safer SERM type.

1. Clinical study showing that Chrysin does not affect testosterone levels. ( or is this because the Chrysin is not being readily absorbed? ) It also states taht chyrsin is found in honey and propolis!

"The equilibrium of sexual hormones in both sexes is controlled in vertebrates by the enzyme aromatase, a member of the cytochrome P450 superfamily, which catalyzes the conversion of androstenedione and testosterone into estrone and estradiol, respectively. Flavonoids are diphenolic compounds present in whole grains, legumes, fruits, and vegetables that are strongly implicated as protective in coronary heart disease, stroke, and cancer. One flavonoid, chrysin, found in high concentrations in honey and propolis, has been shown to be an inhibitor of aromatase enzyme activity. These foods are often used as supplements, particulary by sportsmen for their energetic and antioxidant properties. The aim of this study was to verify if daily treatment for 21 days with propolis and honey, containing chrysin, would modify urinary concentrations of testosterone in volunteer male subjects. In fact, aromatase inhibition by chrysin could block the conversion of androgens into estrogens with a consequent increase of testosterone, eventually measurable in urine samples. The obtained data did not show alterations of the levels of testosterone in the volunteers after 7, 14, and 21 days of treatment in comparison with baseline values and compared with measurements on the control subjects at the same time. In conclusion, the use of these foods for 21 days at the doses usually taken as oral supplementation does not have effects on the equilibrium of testosterone in human males."

Source : http://www.ingenta.com/isis/searching/ExpandTOC/ingenta?issue=pubinfobike://mal/jmf/2003/00000006/00000004&index=16

2. Clinical study showing that Chrysin does not absorb when taken orally

"Passiflora Coerulea, also known as Chrysin. This naturally occurring compound is a potent inhibitor of aromatase, the enzyme that converts testosterone to the particular estrogen- estradiol (believed to be "bad" estrogen). Passiflora Coerulea also has a direct effect on the neuro-receptors of the brain creating a calming effect. The beneficial effects of this phytonutrient are not seen when it is taken orally, as its potency is destro
yed by the digestive process."

am going to buy the supplement (bovine contrum) from a gnc store, soon as i have the money to do so and am thinking of getting ergopharm 6-oxo which come in capules form, it actually a very new product, and expensive, sinse i will have order online, it purpose is for sports ppl and body builders who through probary taken these pro hormones and other things, get high estrogen levels, i heard of chysine, it more easier to get, however a not sure how effective it will be.brocoli and asian vegetables, like bok choi would i recken have anti-estrogen effects, a majority of the asians in australia and ppl who eat a lot of veletables, are usually taller, probary because of the better healthcare, and diet that assible in australia. thanks.

Yep, from the article I read a few days ago, yes. Besides, it does you no harm. Eating vegetables ( especially raw ones ) provide you with a lot of nutrients you need to grow. If you are chinese, occasionally taking some salad, a tuna sandwich with egg and lettuce and tomato, some egg and bacon as breakfast, occasional fish and chips, jacket potatos, might help. Try taking a more 'australian' diet rather than a chinese diet. Its sure more nutritious. Also, do avoid soy bean products as it contains lots of estrogen and anti-nutrients.

there's bovine colostrum in liquid form. i'd say its better absorption rate than pills/capsules. however not sure how's it made. and its quality. theres like so many brands of colostrum in a local health store it's tough to choose.

http://www.bovinecolostrum.com/criteria/index.htm

any ideas what a trusted name brand available in canada?

actually in powder form, its better.. cause high temperatures will destroy the essential nutrients in it. I think IGF-1 goes intact even at high temp. the best is capsules, with the colostrum powder inside, so most of it survives the stomach and passes on the the small itnestine, where the prbm starts.

Hi Dennis,

I am a 19 year-old female and am only 155cm tall. I've been to many doctors about growth techniques only to be dismissed by all. Do you know of any good endocrinologists in Australia?...Adelaide in particular?

Cheers
Linda

Hi,

Its not that I want to disappoint you, but at age 19 and being a female, you don't stand a chance to grow.. Even the best endocrinologists can't do much to help you. I think there is a endocrine department in Monash Med. Ctr ( they have lots of stuff ). But I'm not sure cause I went to the UK for study and only just came back to australia. not sure about adelaide area. Living in perth now, near the perth int'l airport..

Warmest Regards
Dennis

Hi , i just turned 16 5 days ago .. and i've been taking glutamine for 3 weeks.. should i discontinue. Btw im 5'11 and should i take colostrum too?

please respond Dennis
Thanks

hey dennis-
awesome job on this board man!
about the help i need- i am a 17yr old female and am 5ft.2.75in tall. my father is 5'6 and my mom 5'4- so i know that i definately have it in my genes to get taller.
is there a chance that i can grow taller?
what supplements should i take to increase my chances?
btw- i eat extremely healthily (eggs every morning, calcium supplements, 1 centrum pill daily, 8glasses of water daily, fruits & veggies galor)
i really want to gain a few more inches.
also i want to avoid as best as i could supplements that up testosterone levels. what supps/pills/etc would u recommend? any brand names in particular?
also, what are some names of igf1 that i can find in stores such as gnc?

thanks sooo much for your consideration

hi again-
is it imprudent to take anti-estrogen supplements/or any other growth enhancers without consulting a doctor?

also, what exactly is colustrom, and how does it aid in height growth?

another thing is that my dad is 6'6 and my mother is 5'5 .. soo i really want to be as tall as my dad. im 16 (just turned) 5'11

what are your feelings about healthmax? do you think it can help me grow?

Thank u for all tht info Anonymous....I still have yet 2 c the doctor...n tht'll probably b in a week or 2 if my dad agrees.....I haven't grown a bit..but I really hope tht I can take the multivitamins n b at least 5"5:/

1. HeightMax(tm) Concentrate

Vitamins:
Vitamin A (50% palmitate; 50% beta-carotene 15,000 IU
Vitamin C (As ascorbic Acid) 300 mg
Vitamin D (as cholecalciferol) 400 IU
Vitamin E (as D-alpha tocopheryl succinate) 150 IU
Thiamin (as thiamin mononitrate) 75 mg
Riboflavin 75 mg
Niacin 75 mg
Vitamin B6 (as pyridoxine HCL) 75 mg
Folic Acid 400 mcg
Vitamin B12 (as cobalamin) 75 mcg
Biotin 75 mcg
Pantothenic Acid (75 mg) 75 mcg

Herbs (Standardized extract):
Korean Ginseng 50 mg
American Ginseng 50 mg
Siberian Ginseng 50 mg
Ginkgo Biloba 50 mg
Gotu Kola 30 mg

===============================================================
II. HeightMax (tm) Plus
Serving Size: Maximum three (3) tablets

Minerals:

Calcium (as Calcium carbonate & gluconate-chelate)1000 mg
Iron 1.5 mg
Iodine 150 mg
Magnesium 500 mg
Zinc 10 mg
Selenium (as L-selenomethionine) 50 mg
Copper (as chelate, & Copper oxide) 1 mg
Manganese (as glycinate amino-acid chelate) 1 mg
Chromium (as niacin amino-acid chelate) 30 mcg
Molybdenum (glycine amino-acid chelate) 25 mcg
Potassium (as potassium amino acid complex) 1.8 mg
Inositol 100 mg
Choline (as choline bitartrate) 50 mg
Betaine HCl 25 mg
Biotin 25 mg
Bioflavonoids (citrus) 25 mg
Hesperidin 10 mg
Boron (as amino acid chelate) 3 mg
Carotenoids 100 mcg


Amino Acids:
5-HTP (Hydroxytryptophan) 50 mg
Lysin 50 mg
Branched Chain Amino-acids (BCAA) 150 mg
(1:1:1 parts of leucine, isoleucine, and valine)
Taurine 250 mg
L-arginine 250 mg
L-ornithine 125 mg
GABA (Gamma Amino Butyric Acid) 100 mg
Gamma-Oryzanol 125 mg

So given that I'm already 6' as it is, and unlikely to be prescribed Letrozole and Anastrazole, my best option for an estrogen blocker is Tamoxifen, right?

And weightlifting is a bad idea when trying to gain height?

wait a second dennis, the bones fuse earlier in the hand than they do in the feet right? So taking an x-ray of the hand won't do you any good? Just take one of the feet?

Will reply tommorow.

Hi, I'm very very busy now and I'm now feeling dead tired. Going to sleep now. I will read through your replies and reply tommorow. I ain't 'gone'. =)

Very nice to have you back Dennis, I was looking forward to it. Just for you I have compiled all the list of questions from your last visit ...so you dont have to read every post. Anything I can do to help you out : )

John- I stand at 5'7, age 19 male, I'm not sure either why I stopped there since my dad is 5'10 and mom 5' 4, and all of my cousins border near that. Supposing that my bones aren't fused, what can I do? Don't the bone fuse happen at 20-25?

ahh- wait a second dennis, the bones fuse earlier in the hand than they do in the feet right? So taking an x-ray of the hand won't do you any good? Just take one of the feet?

jake- So given that I'm already 6' as it is, and unlikely to be prescribed Letrozole and Anastrazole, my best option for an estrogen blocker is Tamoxifen, right?
And weightlifting is a bad idea when trying to gain height?

Steven- Hi , i just turned 16 5 days ago .. and i've been taking glutamine for 3 weeks.. should i discontinue. Btw im 5'11 and should i take colostrum too?

Sharon- i am a 17yr old female and am 5ft.2.75in tall. my father is 5'6 and my mom 5'4- so i know that i definately have it in my genes to get taller.
is there a chance that i can grow taller?
what supplements should i take to increase my chances?
also i want to avoid as best as i could supplements that up testosterone levels. what supps/pills/etc would u recommend? any brand names in particular?
is it imprudent to take anti-estrogen supplements/or any other growth enhancers without consulting a doctor?
also, what exactly is colustrom, and how does it aid in height growth?
what are your feelings about healthmax? do you think it can help me grow?

http://arbl.cvmbs.colostate.edu/hbooks/pathphys/endocrine/hypopit/gh.html

->Growth hormone secretion is also part of a negative feedback loop involving IGF-1. High blood levels of IGF-1 lead to decreased secretion of growth hormone not only by directly suppressing the somatotroph, but by stimulating release of somatostatin from the hypothalamus.

->Growth hormone also feeds back to inhibit GHRH secretion and probably has a direct (autocrine) inhibitory effect on secretion from the somatotroph.


Unless you are IGF-1 deficient, there's no point to decreasing HGH levels. Because if more and more igf-1 is in the blood the body creates less and less human growth hormone.

->Somatostatin inhibits growth hormone release in response to GHRH and to other stimulatory factors such as low blood glucose concentration.

Increase IGF-1 levels mean decrease blood sugar levels = more somatostatin.

http://www.preventcancer.com/consumers/general/milk.htm

->American dairy milk is genetically-modified unless it’s labeled “NO rBGH”
Genetically-engineered bovine growth hormone (rBGH) in milk increases cancer risks.
American dairy farmers inject rBGH to dairy cows to increase milk production.

->European Union and Health Canada have banned rBGH to protect citizens from IGF-1 hazards.

Less IGF-1 in milk in canada or europe in the eu unless imported from say USA. Which has not ban the rBGH(growth hormone placed on cows to input milk production and increase igf-1)

waaaaaattt...are you telling me I can't have my milk!

Lol we asians dont drink milk anyways. It doesnt mean that you can't be tall. I know 6 Asians in my grad year they are like 6'0 tall. They don't even drink milk. In fact they drink alot of soy milk as when i go to their house they usually drink soy milk over coke/pop. soy milk is full of estrogen too.

however they were also the tallest when they were grade 8(1st year high school). so it doesn't have to do with puberty growth. their parents aren't that tall ranging from 5'1 - 5'7. more like the higher growth rate as a child.

I'm 15, and am around 5,5 (168cm)
want to get atleast above 170cm ...
planning to get
colostrum
and anti-estrogen, but from what i've heard, there's options.
chrysin
tamaoxifen
letrozole
anastrazole...
not sure if i typed it right.. but .. can anyone advise me .. from best to worst, which anti-estrogen to get?

and also, read the minerals you advised
is there anything that includes all in one tablet?
taht like.. GNC sells or somethin?
thx

Hey all, I had to take over the role of surgeon as theres staff shortage. so i'd been quite busy..

I'll just post back to all of you now...

John- I stand at 5'7, age 19 male, I'm not sure either why I stopped there since my dad is 5'10 and mom 5' 4, and all of my cousins border near that. Supposing that my bones aren't fused, what can I do? Don't the bone fuse happen at 20-25?

Dear John, I doubt that you can grow much, though yes, your bone does fuse at 20-25. This's because your pubertal growth spurt which occurs until 16 is over and your growth rate is rapidly closing. I expect that you should reach 5'8 to 5'10 if you try what I've said, but that all depends on each individual case. In fact, some people just fuse early, because of precocious puberty, or playing about with HGH and steroids.

ahh- Err no. The bones do fuse at different times, but a wrist x-ray is the most general procedure. It might be earlier a bit ( usually ) but they are approximately the same time. After all, when the hormones are released, cartilage become bone at almost equal pace.

jake- Jake, yeah I think that is so, though long term Tamoxifen is not actually good. A course for 1-2 year and Tamoxifen loses its activity and might even encourage estrogen levels. Weightlifting does NOT work in helping you gain height. Rather, you risk your growth plates being damaged and you not growing any more. Your growth plates are made of cartilage and they become bone at 20-25. Though it seems that final ossification age takes place at 25-40, the age 25 is a safe limit for weight lifting. After 25, i doubt you can grow anything naturally and besides, your growth plates are mostly bone already. When growth plates are open, weightlifting and strenuous repititive excercises can tear easily damage the cartilage and growth plates, stunting your growth.

Steven- Glutamine simulates HGH to a certaine extent as it is one of the building blocks of HGH. But the problem is that not only do high levels of HGH make your eventual height become shorter, it might also be dangerous for you. Glutamine is found in right amounts in a healthy diet. Just make sure you eat healthy. In my opinion, you should discontinue and probably start on colostrum. If you are concerned about your height, you might want to take anti-estrogens like Chrysin, or the stronger prescription ones.

Sharon- Actually, I think that you are 'about there' already since you are 17. Ask your parents if they have multiple 'growth spurts', though that is rather unlikely. There is ltitle chance you will grow substantially taller. Taking anti-estrogens might really be your BEST bet for significantly slowing down your growth plate fusions. Why girls are so short is because they have more estrogen and release in greater amounts. Go on a multivitamin course like centrum to make sure your body has the correct amounts of nutrients it needs to grow. I think that you are not fufiling your full genetic potential JUST BECAUSE you are not eating an adequate diet. Make sure you avoid dieting and ensure you take lots of meat, and eat at least 2 hours before sleeping at night. Try replacing your 3 main meals ( breakfast, lunch and dinner ) with snacks also. Instead of having 3 main meals, break up into like 5 meals. This will largely decrease your insulin levels ( insulin feeds back to tell the hypothalmus to stop producing HGH ). A short course of testosterone therapy might be beneficial to reduce your estrogen levels and maybe kick start a POSSIBLE second growth spurt. Colostrum contains high levels of IGF-1, Insulin-growth factor I. IGF-1 is the hormone which has a great effect on making cartilage and IGF-1 is even stronger than HGH in this area. This is probably why people who drink milk are taller, and also why those children who are breast-fed are stronger and taller than their counterparts. It would be best to take anti-estrogen supplements with a doctor's close monitoring.
I've not heard of heightmax and I discourage you from using such products which claim to 'enhance height'. They might not only not work, but might make you not grow as much, or even make you become deformed.

IGF-1 will cause growth hormone secretion to drop. But IGF-1 happens to be more powerful to growth hormone in causing bone growth. In fact, the main route of action of HGH is via IGF-1. Why? Because when the liver detects HGH levels, it will secrete IGF-1. By taking IGF-1 supplements, for a short time of a few hours, we are increasing the IGF-1 levels in our blood. But when the pituitary detects high levels of IGF-1, then it stops producing HGH and thus the liver stops producing natural IGF-1. This is why after some time of taking IGF-1 supplements, levels are generally restored. The body tries to stay with a certain amount of IGF-1 in the bloodstream, but by taking IGF, then we spike IGF-1 for a period of time, before it drops to normal again. Growth hormone does feed back to the hyptothalmus to stop GHRH secretion and thus maintain the adequate amount of GH. I don't think GH has an autocrine effect on its own cells.

'Unless you are IGF-1 deficient, there's no point to decreasing HGH levels. Because if more and more igf-1 is in the blood the body creates less and less human growth hormone.'. GH works to increase height primarily via IGF-1. Other functions like body-building via GH are caused by GH itself.

"
Increase IGF-1 levels mean decrease blood sugar levels = more somatostatin.
"

I don't get what you mean. lol. Isn't somatostatin = IGF-1?!

Oops sorry I've been posting as "anonymous" but as u can see my login is gwx =)

Dear tokuno

Tamoxifen, letrozole and anastrazole are equally potent though you can only use Tamoxifen for a year or two before it doesn't work as well. Letrozole and anastrazole work via another type of action ( by inhibiting aromatase ) and they can work for long periods of time without losing their acivity.

Just don't get anything containing amino acids. Amino acids are found in just the right amounts in a healthy diet. For multivitamin, try Centrum or try the GNC Ultra Mega. ( GNC I think absorbs better though, but Centrum cheaper a little )

dennis, do you know what folic acid has to do with growing for a teen growth?

cause I got it with my iron supplements this year from my doctor cause of my blood test. I don't really need it now that much cause it was only for 30 days but the doctor told me to make sure I keep easting more stuff with iron so that it doesn't come back this year

I know folic acid is usually for females but I think I read somewhere that both male and female teens need it for there veolcity peak of the growth spurt.

I did get some other stuff mixed with the iron supplments to though I need to find the empty bottle cause I don't remembe r the other stuff off by heart.

thanks in advance

James

thx for the quick reply
just wondering.. read these sideeffects of tamoxifen, letrozole, and anastrazole...
and one of tamoxifen was to make the bone more fragile..
is that a good thing?

also, would the following be a good list of things to take?

colostrum
anti-estrogen (eighter tamoxifen, letrozole, or anastrazole)
the GNS ultra mega

amd also, one last question (sorry for askin a lot (>_<)
what time of day do you recommend taking these things?
is it better in the morning, before breakfast, or like.. night before sleep?
thx

Dennis, what do you think about glucosomine? Is that a prohormone? It's used to increase cartilidge. Check the thread out here:

http://www.network54.com/Forum/thread?forumid=189510&messageid=1088132646&lp=1088183327

You think it's a good idea to take these?

So far the list is:
Chrysin
Colustrum
Centrum

both these can be brought from anabolics-online.com, tamoxifen $60 us dollars for 100 tablets 10mg and the arimidex is very expensive $200 us dollars, the other staff is crap that for body builders, i dont think doctors give dispriction without very good reason for the arimidex and tamoxifen, with this being said do you think it worth while in purchasing the tamoxifen dennis, i also done weight lifting in the past 17-20 years, however i stoped a couple months ago(wont be going back), i dont think done my height growth any good,am still on a multi-vitiam tablet and i take sustrain a vitiam rich milk drink, this week sm going purchase bovine colostrum from gnc and sleeping alot, my aim is to achieve 178 cm, am currently 173 cm, do you think its possible for me to get this with taking tamoxifen, bovine colstrum, multi vitiam tablet, lots of sleep, thanks alot, sorry for asking alot of questions.

Dennis it looks like you contradict yourself. First, you say that bones fuse at end of 16, then you say 20-25? Whhich one is true?

Oh and another thing...can you ask your friend how long it takes cartiledge to become bone...most of the people i have met have to do the routines for atleast 3 months or the height gain isnt permanent and only temporary. But I need to know from a orthopendist when the height gain from stretching/kicking is permanent.

One more thing; doesn't masturbation in males release testosterone which brings down the levels of estrogen? OR Do you LOSE testosterone when you masturbate, bringing up the estrogen levels?

he said the bones don't grow rapidly after 16 cause that when the bone age is slowed down but the finishing of puberty, though the bones still grow a tiny bit around from 20 to 25 only about an inch after puberty from what I hear anyway unless you do sterching

Masturbation does NOT directly cause a decrease in testosterone levels, and thereby no change in estrogen levels. Because masturbation does not in any way affect the brain's endocrine or the CNS's autocrine or whatever system. Masturbation can reduce zinc levels which results in both elevated estrogen levels ( due to decreased testosterone ) and also in slower growth ( or growth retardation if too often )

Ok...no masturbation for me...or maybe once a week with taking zine is ok?

yeah Once or twice. Take Zinc when you do masturbate. One person needs 15mg a day of zinc. A person loses about 5mg of zinc due to masturbation a day. Even w/out masturbation, a person does not get the recommended 5mg of zinc. In fact, an average person from DIET alone gets only 5mg. So you do the calculation =). If you masturbate, u might go to 0mg a day! So taking zinc 15mg when you masturbate is a good idea ( or better still, everyday ! ). check if ur multivitamin has zinc. don't exceed 30mg zinc a day. or 20mg for long term supplementatn.

hi dennis. do you know what folic acid has to do with teen growth spurts,

cause I got some folic acid in my iron supplements.

thanks in return

folic acid allows for normal tissue growth and repair. too less of it makes you grow slower. i don't think a lot of people are deficient in folic acid though.

well my doctor gave it to me cause my iron levels were a bit lower to the other vitamins but not that much becuase I am growing adolescent muscle mass and I read somewhere, that the muscles mass growth is when males grow aroudn 4 to 6 inches in one year.


though I read that folic acid is important to the teen growth for some reason =/

Hey dennis is there actually evidence that anti-estrogen makes you grow? Have you seen cases where the body just starts growing?

Also another thing was how you said weightlifting is bad. Weightlifting Is ONLY bad if you hurt your growth plates. I'm only doing 12-15 reps of light weight just for endurance. Please clarify this.

Heres an article:
http://www.efit.com/servlet/article/3392.html

And yes I'm just going for 12-15 reps for endurance. I can't say anything towards that weight lifting promotes HGH hormone, and that will promote my closure of plates. You might be right on that one. But then everything in the world would promote HGH such as lifting your body or lifting your arm?

I did not say that weightlifting increases HGH nor did I say that HGH closes your growth plates earlier. But any kind of excercise will DEFINITELY increase testosterone ( not HGH or anything ). Anti-estrogens don't make you grow. Anti estrogens prevent your growth plates from closing earlier. This works because estrogen is the hormone which promotes growth plate fusion. You essentially buy time for yourself.

Yes but then why condemn weight lifting? Is weight lifting okay while taking anti-estrogen?

Ok it seems that there's a bit of confusion on my part . If weight lifting promotes testosterone, it should decrease estrogen?

Ok...Dennis I researched this a bit in the forums and I found:
http://www.network54.com/Forum/message?forumid=177048&messageid=1054339128

Try to read all the responses on that. Recap: Weight lifting will promote testosterone and HGH, and the excess testosterone will be converted into estrogen which will close your plates.

Seems to me like people should try light weight lifting(12-15 reps) and take anti-estrogens and they would be giants.

Safe weightlifting done professionally shouldn't injure your plates...

so i should take colostrum and GNC Mega ultra,or centrum???

i wanna stop estrogen but keep testosterone the same.

No you should take:
An anti-estrogen(chrysin, tamoxifen, or some other prescription ones)
Centrum
Colustrum

so take anti estrogen,along with centrum+colostrum??

does anyone have results from taking these??

is drinking milk analogous to taking 2-3 supplements of viactive per day in terms of getting enough igf1 to enhance growth? in other words, can you still get the igf1 benefits that you get from milk, by taking calcium supplements such as viactive?

Umm no Dennis earlier you did say HGH closes plates.."Creatine and amino acids ( and L-arginine ) increase GH levels which in turn bring up testosterone levels. increased testosterone levels have been shown to decrease estrogen level. But the paradox is that HGH on ITS OWN leads to faster bone maturation and growth plate fusion!"

So if you claim that...then we shouldn't sleep or do anything that releases HGH.

can someone tell me the which supplements & vitamins to buy,I plan on going to buy some soon.


colostrum
centrum/multi vitamins
anti-estrogen

am I right??

can you buy anti-estrogens at GNC?

check for chrysin in a month, i already asked for it, the lady said from a month its possible or max two months, good luck.

oops srry! i meant that high levels of HGH might cause ur growth plates to close faster. it seems as if some of my posts are contradictory. sorry, i'll post a clarifying article later.

That's ok Dennis...as long as you keep enlightening us . For the first time, I'm liking some kind of bio...hmm maybe I'll reconsider majoring in bio :D

Yes, I don't think HGH alone can make your plates fuse faster, only extra estrogen can. A clarifying article/study would help

some one answer my qeuestion please,i'm goin to buy some soon

colostrum
centrum/gnc mega
anti estrogen

??

Yes that would be good thatdude...which anti-estrogen are you getting though?

any sugesstions?

maybe chrysilin

I'm sorry guys but Chrysin is a no-no:
http://www.musclemonthly.com/articles/0107/010701-arnold-flavones.htm
good thing I researched this before I ran out to buy it.

I've found other alternatives such as 6-oxo...but then again that surely suppresses estrogen but gives testosterone a little boost. According to Dennis, we don't want a boost in testosterone or HGH. Hopefully, when you come back dennis, you can share why testosterone alone and HGH alone closes plates.

Hi i was reading your orginal post and you mentioned that IGF-1 supplementation is not recommended above 500mg per day. and today i just bought colostrum from GNC and its recommended that i take 2 tablets a day..(250mg)= 1 tablet and you also mentioned that milk also contains IGF-1 in it and i drink about 4 glasses of milk a day should i stop drinking milk? since it will exceed 500mg per day ..and you also said that high dosages of IGF-1 can cause cancer?

please respond , Thanks

Hi everyone.... first of all, hats off to Denny for taking time off his busy schedule to help us... thanks denny
i just wanted to get something really clear... Is it possible to increase the cartilage thickness by atleast .1 inch in between the vertebrae... cause if thats the case then for the 28 flexible non fused vertebrae there is a chance of increasing total upper body length by more then 20inches...
also if that does happen does it really affect the spinal chord... who wants to grow tall at the expense of being paralysed....

sorry I meant 2.0 inches !!!!!

So, what anti-estrogen should I take? I keep checking this forum regularly for an answer.

Until what age can you take an anti-estrogen?

Dennis or anyone else, can you please recommend a good website to buy an anti-estrogen from?

Dennis, I think it would be best if you could recommend a good website to us.

Where are you Dennis

Hey all, I'm back I'll post some information about HGH and IGF-1 and hopefully clear some doubts.

Here are some facts :

1. IGF-1 builds cartilage
2. IGF-1 is a key factor in pubertal growth
3. IGF-1 is dependent on amount of HGH
4. IGF-1 stays longer in the bloodstream as compared to HGH
5. It is safer to take IGF-1 supplementation rather than HGH supplementation, which either don't work, or when taken orally, are taken in very minute amounts. Only HGH injections have the potential to help; but they are to be given by medical personnel.
6.Height growth in childhood and puberty is largely due to GH

Here is some elaboration..

GH causes the division of chondrocytes in cartilage ALONE, directly. But GH also cause IGF-1 to be produced. IGF-1 has a more distinct effect rather than GH in the case of growth.
The liver gets the signal from GH to start producing IGF-1. IGF has a multicrine effect, and can work via blood or via the target tissues themselves or via nearby tissues. Due to an increase in calcium retention when taking GH, people under GH tend to reach their final adult height faster, and this can be bad to your FINAL adult height. It limits your potential.

Let me sort out how the long bones work.
At the two sides of your bones are actually cartilage tissue and these cartilage have the potential to become hard bones; ossified bones. HOW DO growth plates fuse? Simply, the cartilage growth is slower than the ossification. That means that you grow cartilage slower than your body ossifies or builds bones. Does this mean 'long-and-steady wins the race'. A definite yes! If your growth has all along been slow and steady, you can expect to be pretty tall. Because your body is building cartilage all along when your body ossify the bone ( whcih is slow! ).

Why does GH cause all these?
Simply, GH causes ossification! So does calcium and all those bone-building supplements. It is totally wrong that calcium helps you grow taller. Yes, it increases bone density. Yes, it can prevent osteoporosis, but NO it does NOT make you grow taller and theoretically might work the other way! Healthy amounts are ok; just don't get overboard!

I also want to clarify the role of testosterone and estrogen in growth.

Testosterone has NO effect on its own, directly, to influence growth. Testosterone ONLY influences growth when it is aromatized to estrogen, in which it would result in earlier growth plate fusion; or bone ossification.

I just read that article, but I also read reports that a 1990s clinical study has proved that chrysin when taken with 7 other herbs showed a reduction in estradiol level in 10 in 10 of the men and an increase in testosterone in 7 in 10 of the men. BUT i couldn't find the study despite quoting it in Google.

You should NOT drink so much milk! It will ossify your bones faster! Stick to one or two glasses a day.. Not all of the 500mg is going to get absorbed. So by the time the colostrum gets into your body, much less will be absorbed into your blood. No, it has not been proven clearly that IGF has a link to cancer. In other words, we don't know whwat it does to your body. Some studies have said it causes colon cancer, but the evidence is lacking. It is estradiol and estrogen which have a clear effect on cancer.

Oh lol. That scared me. 2 inches might be possible, but its not really your back cartilage which grow a lot. It is the one at your pelvis and at your knee area. No, you won't get paralysed. Your body knows how to adapt. The growth is slow anyway. Do you ever see children or teenagers getting paralysed because they grow? No!

There is no age limit for anti-estrogen. But it is advisable you take it at around 15 onwards cause this is when your height growth starts to decline.

Good to have you back Dennis. I would seriously pay you out of my pocket for the kind of advice you give here on the boards, and I'm sure others would too. But you're probably too generous for that = P

Hmm well so taking bovine colustrum 500 mg a day is good and won't fuse bones faster because that's JUST IGF-1?

I think that's what I did wrong...I drank 4 cups of milk a day when I was young...

I'm curious what those 7 herbs are that were taken with chrysin.

i go multi vitiam tablet,with chrysin is okay to take it, cause i heard its a no no, by somebody else, it be at gnc soon, and gnc i went to doesnt sell construm, is it still avaiable at health stores, with the milk, mustubtion, weight lifting, are things ive being overdoing, i quiet all three now, i just wanna get 5 cm (2inches), and whats the natural average for an australian male.

Colostrum is NOT just for its IGF. It also has immune factors and about the amount of calcium you get in a glass of milk. Note : colostrum in actual fact, is milk! - just milk from cows which just give birth, said to be high in IGF-1 and 2 to help babies grow and also IgG to help babies fight disease.

The 7 herbs I'm not sure. I have not read the study but I have read a few sources which quote that study saying this and that... ( see http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2000/jan00-cover2.html )

Chrysin might or might not work; u're taking your chances actually. I don't know anything about Chrysin and was just alerted to it by a post in this forum. GNC in australia does sell chrysin and colostrum; the last time I've checked ( 2 weeks ago ). I'm sure many other brands carry it too like 'Healtheries'.

Hello Dennis,
One question have you figured out if the igf-1 from colostrum actually corresponds to height increase? It is because even in the olympics, athletes use it for probably a faster recovery time because increase of igf-1 does mean faster recovering time from vigorous exercises.

I've seen the tv shows in which they show you how the olympic committee do drug tests and they say that human growth hormone/igf-1 is pretty hard to trace because it doesn't show a significant increase in igf-1 in the blood serum. I'm not sure if the people who take it do it orally or by needle shots.

However this PubMed article, this trial where people take 60g of bovine colostrum and show no increase in igf-1 levels in the blood. 60g=60000mg

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=12848392

Wow I can't even read all that gibberish scientific language ^^.

The bottom line: should we take colustrum or not?

You shouldn't classify all these as gibberish. After all, we are just evaluating whether or not to take a chance and take colostrum. Colostrum in some clinical studies increase IGF and in some , it does not. By the way, that study was done for the purpose of aerobic excercise and atheletes... so it might not reflect well.

So to sum it up; if you're serious about getting height and want to go to all extremes and take all possibilities, take Colostrum. Take it, and you might grow. Don't take it and you wouldn't grow. Its your money, your choice.

Oh I'm sorry, I think you took me the wrong way. I said scientific 'giberish' not that it is giberish, it's just hard to understand I meant.

I was looking for other alternatives to chrysin and have you looked at 6-oxo dennis? http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/ergo/6oxo.html
It INCREASES testosterone levels though. But it does kill off the estrogen. How does it look?

Another thing I was wondering was how long are we supposed to take anti-estrogens? 5 months? 5 years?

Thanks Dennis !!! Im going to try to put a few inches in me !!! I will be starting today... Thanks guys you have all been very helpful.
tc

Do you even have low male testostorone levels?

This is a pretty accurate list if you got low male testostorone levels. http://www.diagnose-me.com/cond/C15002.html
Unless you diagnose it yourself with a blood test.

Are you supposedly fat? Have breasts like girls? That is an indicator of excess estrogen.

As for me, i'm only 115 lbs. Skinny as hell. Could see my ribs clearly. Hardly any fat except in the thighs and hamstrings/calve. Arms,hands, feet that clearly show veins. I don't think i have excess estrogen.

Just reminding you fellows that my fat metabolism rate is already high. Meaning most of the fat i have in my body are used as energy. I have like lots of stamina and energy levels and acne. Therefore i believe i have already high levels of Testostorone. Increase Testostorone means more skin oil production(acne) and like even leaner muscle mass. So i wouldn't waste my money on a supplement that is a capsule and expensive if you don't already have high testostorone levels.


Heck i've been starting to take bovine colostrum supplements, a week ago to see if i can grow. I just got a wound biking yesterday. I've noticed faster healing wounds. I had a nasty wound from biking. Wounds that got white liquid(blood) turned into drier wet yellow liquid(blood liquid color). Just took 2 capsules a day(400mg total) and noticed the next day the wound already did not need a bandaid as it had dried up. It's like magic!
It would have taken me probably a week to dry up that wound previously.

I've also noticed fat from my legs are less and i've increased some muscle mass on my left upper arm however it feels like its more water into the muscles. Sorry in my whole life i've never done weighttraining consecutively 3x a week. I probably only do like 10x a year through my schools Physical Education class. So i'm not sure if muscles are suppose to be water.

As for bovine colostrum height increase, i'm not sure if it works but like any other supplement or drug you got to keep using it longterm to have effectiveness.

Hopefully, it works.

the wound healing effect is because TgF-B is absorbed into your body. it does not really indicate if the IGF is really put into use, but it shows that the colostrum is real and taking effect on your body. as with any drugs and supplements, especially with estrogen inhibitors, it must be taken long-term to have any visible effect. by the way, just to point out again that estrogen inhibitors don't increase your growth rate. it just increases your final height. so if you take it now, you might grow into your 20s!

Interesting post on the other forum-
http://www.network54.com/Forum/thread?forumid=177048&messageid=1020200530

However he talks like he has a PHD and is a doctor or something, claiming all those facts to be true.

http://www.fda.gov/bbs/topics/CONSUMER/CON00181.html

He probably does not have an MD. IGF-1 isn't GH. IGF-1 is secreted from the liver. Masturbation doesn't cause IGF to decrease much. Even if it does, then IGF-1 is quickly produced by your liver again. It isn't some precious substance. But of course, I'm not pro-masturbation. Not masturbating at all ( there are many people who don't! ) is best, though you can do with 1-2 times a week ( if u are serious bout your height! )

By the way, just forgot to tell you all that anti-estrogens might slow down your growth a little, but don't worry cause your final adult height will be higher.

after having an appointment for my scoliosis check-up. i asked the orthapedic surgeon at what age do most normal adolescent fuse their spines which is for most boys longer than their legs. he replied 16-17 for boys and for girls it's usually once u get your period regularly in 2 years that's when total spine fusin has occured.

the best way to check if you can grow in the spine is through hip x-ray. theres a part of the hip that shows up when going through puberty. this way of checking is called the risser sign. if your risser grade is 5. that is an accurate indicator meaning spine growth is finished.

so what is the point of taking anti-estrogen just for growth of the legs. it be way more cost-efficent and effective if you had taken anti-estrogen before spinal fusion.

what i'm just trying to say is anybody 17 and over is most likely can grow in legs and arms only. so don't expect like 5inches from just the thighbone and shinbone. i'm desperate though but i can't find any of those drug names or ingredients at many pharmacies and vitamin stores. already asked my general practitioner, he just told me you will grow just wait patiently and wouldn't prescribe me any of the drugs

as for me i'm 18 in december and was declared skeletally matured in the spine at 17.5 years old. so just a little above average.

so let me get this straight,I should take colostrum AND anti-estrogen and do stretches??

please expound on a technique so I can start supplement and/or vitamin intake..

I think i'll get some colostrum soon..

I thought the spines fuse after the limbs fuse?? I might be quite rusty lol but I remember clearly that was what I read ( or i got things mixed up! ). But if thats what your surgeon say, then take it as that. lol. he should know better than me

The hip fuses last actually, so it can be used as an indicator to see if you can grow anymore. Yep that one on risser sign is correct. Once 5, you can no longer grow. Its done through a radiograph (x-ray).

taking anti-estrogens as early as possible, in the adolescent years is best, I must stress. it might be best not to mess much with hormones early in life, For those with severe short stature, usually treatment starts at 10-15 and HGH injection is given ( to provide IGF ) and also given anti-estrogens and anti-androgens ( via injections or drugs )to stop bone maturation. this is standard practice so there's nothing to be worried about.

if you are really fused then no medicines can help you grow taller. I suggest that you try out those stretching journals I read on the net, though I still doubt whether they work well.

anyway, for those who REALLY want to stop bone maturation as much as possible and can trade decreased sexual libido for it. Then you can take :

anti-androgen + anti-estrogen + colostrum ( provide IGF )

Typically LHRH analogs are given, but I'm not sure if you can get those. Those are both more expensive than anti-estrogens and require a greater reason for prescription - so harder to get.

anti-androgens will almost stop and maybe reverse slightly pubertal processes like the growth of hair.

Those interested, can replyto this thread. I can elaborate more.

So in essence, what I think you all should go for

anti-estrogen ( either SERM type or Aromatase inhibiting type ) + colostrum + sleep + multivitamins

If you are really desperate and you think you can get it then

anti-androgen + anti-estrogen (SERM Type ) + anti-estrogen ( Aromatase inhibiting type ) + Colostrum + sleep + multivitamin

I highly doubt doctors will give LHRH analogs. they are more wide-reaching than anti-estrogens. By taking 2 types of compatible anti-estrogens alongside with an antiandrogen like zoladex, you can in theory reduce estrogen close to zero, but do watch out for the side effects. estrogen is vital for some bodily functions.

Before anyone tries to reduce estrogen to near zero levels, I hope you can post information about yourself so I can advice you on how to do it safely and the risks that you are taking. You might end up ruining your body by reducing estrogen to zero. But in theory, you CAN grow forever, if that is the case. Even I reluctantly give the second formulation to children with early ( precocious ) puberty, and monitor them every 2 months.

I thought JUST hGH can fuse plates too, even if estrogen isn't there? But in any case, I personally think some estrogen should be there, I heard it's needed for brain function and other things. And me being a college student, I really think I need that brain power .

Anyways, I was just researching pubmed and I found this on whey protein, it even says it increases somewhat ig-f1 levels. I knew that it would since all proteins enhance hGH, but I didn't know that whey protein would also promote bone growth;
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=13129461

Just to add; even if you search for "whey protein bone growth" in google you will see various articles.

I think everyone should search pubmed for intersting articles for height increase, it's a very valid site full of studies.

Dennis im taking colostrum and centrum..

which type of anti-estogen should i get?
http://store.yahoo.com/vitamaker/estrodex.html#

is that the right one?
btw im 16 and 6'0

hey i just stumbled on a site that claims it can give 1-4 inches by listening to CD using Binaural Beat...


www.growthburst.com this is very intersting.. any thoughts?

with this anti-androgen, what are the possible side effects ?, it doesnt do any funny things to the hormones, does it, at the momement am on bovine colostrum, a multi-vitiam, sleeping 10 hours, getting chrysin this week, next year i get anastrazole (anti-estrogen) to place chrysin, a anti-androgen, i get these from pharmacy network.com, no discription is needed, just cost alot, i be working in dec full-time, does how i be able to afford these. another thing i also known someone ppl, who havnt grown, say 2-3 years, and then they just start spurting up, the thing is there 20 year olds, how is the possible, i being serious too.

The Hip fuses last in terms of upperbody height.(torso i think its what its called). Then the arms and legs.(limbs). I for one have such a small upperbody but a long neck? Easyheight.com Ryan Nguyen says that its because of neck cartilage being stretched. My orthapedic surgeon says that its because thes spinal cord is being exposed out because of curvature so it looks like you have a big neck.


As well, i was on some site(forgot url) and it told me the periods of time for regular male and female to enter puberty and appear characteristics. Testostorone-estrogen. So just see if you are delayed.

It said at 14 is when adam's apple(voice deepens). My voice changed when i was 15.

As for last stage of puberty pubic hair, it said that at 16 years old you regularly grow bodyhair.
Sure seems like i'm at last stage, ever since i was 16 i've been shaving my moustache, beard, armpits. Although the hair was curly at first. It seems now after shaving it the new hair comes out straight. Not all though. Oh i hate shaving everyweek even with Mach3. Maybe ill try Shick Quattro 4.

Really all you people should just get an X-Ray. You can learn many things from just 1 -xray.
I hope u guys could get a hold of anti-estrogens and anti-androgens pill.
I've went to 2 family doctors(I know its illegal but o well) and they've both rejected me. He and a She has said those are for breast cancer or will ruin your body.

Chrysin is anti-estrogen. It blocks the excess testostorone from being converted to estrogen. Sounds to me if you're fat you've got excess estrogen.

And isn't androgens what the body creates to get energy and like willpower. I'm thinking if they block androgens, you will have bad performance doing exercises

Dennis, must say, thanks for all your updates and taking time to help the growth community.
i was wondering,
i'm 15, becoming 16 in around 2 months, .. Currently, 168cm and 55kg (sorry.. dont' know the conversion)
anyways, u advise anti-estrogen and colostrum.
and yes, i know there are options, but at this stage,
which anti-estrogen would you recommend and say.. has the highest/longest effect?
also, anti-androgen.. at my age, do you think i should make my estrogen levels close to zero?
if so, which anti-androgen do you recommend?
and if not, when should i start and w/ which anti-androgen?

so, in summary..
'im 15.5 years old w/ 168cm and 55kg.
which anti-estrogen should i take?
and which anti-androgen should i take? (if any)
thx again

am not fat

Stop asking the same question over and over again; which anti-estrogen to use...he can only recommend the prescribed ones and he doesn't have any experiences with the others.(bodybuilding supplements)

Well leaving bodybuilding supplements for anti-estrogens aside, I know that Arimidex is probably the most effective anti-estrogen but is also the most expensive($200 for a month)

And then there is Tamoxifen(around $50 a month? not sure) But I heard Tamoxifen has many side effects and isn't that effective

Another one I heard is Cytadren. Its not that expensive at all($50 a month). But I'm not sure on its effectiveness? Does it have any side effects? Can you shed some light on the prescribed drug Cytadren Dennis?

HGH doesn't technically fuse your plates. It just accelerates growth to the point that the growth of bones exceed the growth of cartilage ( and this process causes fusion ), limiting your final adult height. But estrogen directly affects the rate of fusion.
Yes, very low estrogen can lead to osteoporosis later in life because of a reduction in calcium absorption. It MIGHT be needed for thinking, but that, it is still being researched, I think.

I'm not sure about whey protein. Ain't a fan of proteins. lol. Protein helps grow muscles, not bones. By the way, if what you find yields that whey proteins stimulate bone growth, then the question would be what type of bone growth? longitudinal? just increasing the bone density?
Bone growth can also be quite detrimental, paradoxically. Just as how calcium works. If you were to take calcium, then your plates might just fuse faster! ( cause of how it works, bone growth catches up with cartilage growth. eventually, cartilage becomes bone )

Talking about online sites, do see http://endo.endojournals.org/
It has pretty much clinical studies.

Steven, I wouldnt trust those 'breakthrough' formulaes.. Stick to the mainstream ones and you will be steered clear of the scams. Talking about online sites, does anyone know any information about
http://www.myrxforless.com/ ?? Maybe someone can find out for us to see if it really is 'qualified'. Anyone living in mexico perhaps can just check out the address, or send what you buy from them for lab tests. Seriously, you are tall for a 16 year old. Why would you want to pay so much money and dedicate so much time when you are already 6' ( and at 16 )?

Hey jason, i think you are on the right track.. Arimidex is quite potent so i'ld say you are in luck! Some people are lucky to have 2 growth spurts and thats just genetic. Well, they're lucky! Anyway, what's your age?

Bubbletea, I mixed them up lol. The spine does keep growing on into 20s, but by then, the legs would have already stopped. About the long neck, your orthopaedic surgeon is definitely right on that one.

There is something called Tanner stage which uses body characteristics to find out how many % of puberty is complete, but still cannot take the place of the x-rays.

Anonymous,
Androgen merely helps in the 'maleness' of you or the sexual characteristics. Aside from that, would be muscle growth. Thats pretty much that androgen does. Androgen doesn't decrease energy, it decreases sexual energy ( libido )

tkoun, it would be helpful for you to take anti-estrogens now because you are closing 16. At 16, some growth centres would have closed ( should be the legs ). If you can delay this, then surely you can put on a few inches. What I would suggest is a high potency anti-estrogen because at this stage you still have a lot of hope and taking anti-estrogens at this stage will likely increase your height a lot. You should choose yourself ( the anti-estrogens ) and see which is best for you. Femara, Arimidex, Tamoxifen and clomid are all good choices for you. You might have better luck with the SERM-type inhibitors because you have high IGF levels ( puberty.. ). SERM-type inhibitors are Tamoxifen and Clomid. You should NOT reduce your estrogen levels to near zero levels because of the many complications you will face ( esp. at this age ). About anti-androgens, it might not be a good idea to take it.. If you are experiencing psychological conditions like depression, dysthymia, etc, then antiandrogens will worsen it. Antiandrogens might also introduce depression and mood swings, as if you are experiencing the male version of menopause! If you have the financial capacity to take them, then you can try it out and if it makes you feel unwell or you get mood swings easily, then it might be best to stop taking it. Deslorelin ( deslorelin acetate ) is the most commonly talked about drug in this area.

Arimidex is 10 times more effective than Tamoxifen ( as in 1mg of Arimidex will work equally well as 10mg of Tamoxifen ). Arimidex is 250 times more potent than Cytraden ( 250mg of Cytraden will work equally well as 1mg of Arimidex ). Side-effects wise, Arimidex is safest, but the most expensive.

Earlier I was reading in PubMed(yes that's been my favorite site for research nowadays ) that not only JUST HGH is needed for bone growth, but testosterone is needed too. So, if you are deficent in either of the two, you might limit growth.(talkin hormone wise)

It's something like when your endocrine system sees that there's too much testosterone, it decreaes HGH. And when it sees there's too much HGH, it decreases testosterone release. Darn smart thing .

Don't think there isn't a link between HGH and Testosterone. Testosterone does not have a significant effect on bone growth. Perhaps u can point me to the site?

am 20 current height is 173 cm.

Hey Dennis, I've been reading ur msg, and I've learned a lot.
You must answer me on this one. At age 18, I experienced hair-loss, so I decided to take propecia (an androgen inhibitor). But one of the side effect is that is increases ur estrogen level. So theoretically, according to what you've said, I had my growth-plate fused early. >< Is that true?

Also, I'm 21 now, 5'7, and I was 5'5.5 to 5'6 when I was 18. Should I still be able to grow? And should I take ur prescribed supplements at this age?

I am 17.5 and 5'6

I apologize, but I am still uncertain about what I should take and from where?

I am not sure where I should purchase these things online? I don't have access to stores.

Will do boss, here it is(coorelation of testosterone and hGH):

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=993931

Greg
(no login)
24.57.138.118 Re: PubMed research August 31 2004, 12:12 PM


Dennis, if the following is true: "Daily supplementation with 60 g of bovine colostrum for 4 wk does not change blood IGF-I or IGF binding protein-3 levels and does not elicit positive results on drug tests".

Why should we take colostrum? I thought the only point of taking it was to increase IGF 1 levels?


As i said above. In the Olympics they don't test igf-1 to see if its positive. They will all come back negative as the igf-1 has already returned to normal. That's why they hardly detect any people who did growth hormone. Like which athlete does not want a faster recovery time?? How the fuck do they train 20 hours a day. Like some athletes say they do on TV. I'm thinking that IGF-1 gets a rapid boost in the system then it returns to normal like so many articles say even people taking the needle way say that their igf-1 levels only last for several minutes to couple hours. Then they return to normal.

Im thinking the igf-1 does work as my bicep actually got muscle from doing no whatsoever weightraining.

Dennis,
please could you give me some imformative information on the somatosatin suppressant, revostatin. i.e. will suppressing somatosatin help to increase the length of my legs? any know dangerous side effects on persons under the age of 21? should i be taking this at the age of 18? if so/not then could you explain your reasons.

I would be very grateful for you to shed some more light on this subject.

Yours sincerely

John

Dennis:"Seriously, you are tall for a 16 year old. Why would you want to pay so much money and dedicate so much time when you are already 6' ( and at 16 )?"

its because my dad is 6'6 and i play basketball .. im relatively short i want to gain atleast 3-4 inches.. im taking colostrum and going to try to get my hands on chrysin also i just ordered a Binural Beat Audio CD that claims to raise GH levels and promote growth from http:/www.growthburst.com

Hi Dennis, I admire what you are doing and I myself have some questions for you. Currently, I'm taking a calcium/vitamin D supplement tablets (2 each day). The calcium concentration has a 50% daily value (500 mg) and vitamin D of 50% daily value (200 I.U.). I've learned that vitamin D is important and it should be taken for absorption of minerals, calcium, and ions for bone reformation and growth. Aside from this, I also take 2 tablets of Centrum A-Zinc daily. The % daily value of vitamin D on a centrum tablet is 100% (400 I.U.) and calcium 16% (162 mg). Now is it too dangerous to take a centrum w/ a calcium/vitamin D supplement 2x each day? I'm afraid that I may overdose myself of calcium (mg) and vitamin D (I.U.) concentration . Also, it has been recommended that an individual only needs 1300 mg of Calcium and 200 I.U. of vitamin D. It seems like I'm intaking 1324 mg of calcium including (3-4 cups of milk everday) and 1200 I.U. of vitamin D!!! Oh, and from Sky's website I noticed that only 10%-20% of the vitamins from these tablets are absorbed into your body, so it wouldn't be an overdose then? Is it? Should I reduce the amount of intake? or should I "believe" in the claim that only 10%-20% of vitamins are absorbed into the body and the rest becomes wastes and continue taking this much amount of multivitamins. What do you think? And does glucosamine sulfate work for building cartilage growth, reformation/formation etc? Sorry for asking a lot of questions.

I remember I have posted about the purpose of taking IGF is to increase temporarily the IGF levels which will after some time, drop down because the liver stops producing it ( when levels are high ). It is either in this forum or the other one. Not sure, but haven't I said that before?!

to the best of my knowledge, somatostatin inhibitors are rarely used for growth disorders and are more frequently seen in clinical studies and they do it using pyridostigmine, which is supposed to antagonise somatostatin in the thalamus. I don’t think you should take such inhibitors without a doctor monitoring you once in a while.

Yes you shouldn’t take too much calcium a day. It will likely fuse your plates faster. There is no such thing as calcium overdose, but really, your plates will fuse faster as bone formation exceeds cartilage formation. You should reduce on your calcium. By the way, calcium competes with other minerals in the body and the amount of calcium absorbed from supplements is reduced but still, I don’t think you should take so much calcium a day! You should stop or finish off the calcium/vit D supplement and take 1 or 2 centrum tabs ( one is enough already ) a day. Then you should drink only 1 or 2 glasses of milk a day, not so much! Try to get pasteurized and nutritionalised milk. Glucosamine may help the formation of chondrocytes and there is certainly no harm taking it. But I think it thickens rather than builds cartilage..

I'm going to be off for a few days for a 3-day vacation at my friends' house. Take care.. I'll be back soon.

Bubbletea what brand of Colustrum you using/how much dosage/and what time of days?

It definitely looks like it's working for you. Hell I wouldn't mind some LBM.

GNC Colostrum Lozenges. Bottle says Made in Canada. So the cows don't contain rBGH.
400mg a day.
1 in Morning, 1 at Night 200mg each dosage.
You just let it melt in your mouth.

It is high quality i guess. The girl salesperson at GNC said that they also sell the 500mg capsules. However, the lozenges are better absorption then the capsules. Also most expensive as well.

I don't masturbate. But i'm sure we all get wet-dreams to get the sperm out of our body. I find it that i don't have as much wet dreams and i sleep better. The wet dreams aren't because i'm horny in my sleep or anything it's more like just there because I'm making too much sperm. I sleep at least 10 hours a day now compared to 7-8 before lol. So better quality of sleep.

As well as muscle mass in both biceps which i don't weighttrain and loss of fat on my thighs and lower leg.

Above post was by me

Hmm interesting...those are definitely signs of increased IGF-1. How long have you been taking it?

3 weeks?

At first it was only the left bicep that had more muscle mass because that is my naturally strong arm. Although i write things righthanded. It makes sense that i see more muscle pumps out. Now both arms can see the muscle pump up and not flat when u poke at it.

Again, what really surpised me is the wound i had when biking. I got a cut as said on Aug 24. It kept bleeding so i put a bandaid on. Then 2 colostrum lozenges when i sleep and boom next day i take my bandaid off cause its itchy and the wound heals faster with daylight. All i see is white and yellow liquid meaning the liquid part of the blood dried up(serum). That was oozing out of the center of the wound. The other parts dried up and is dead skin the brown/black layer. Unless you peel it off, then you'll see your wound again.

Also this thing boosts immune system. My throat is more clean so i don't always have to clear my throat by spitting. Ahhh nothing better than going out on a rainy day and not get sick. I live in Vancouver, Canada and it rains alot so hell maybe i don't got any colds, flu, smokers flu(bacteria of throat, mucus) is because of this supplement. I never take flu shots as they aren't 100% effective so i'll see if i catch a flu anytime soon.

ok.. I brought my acer travelmate laptop along.. haha..

if we can rule out placebo ( the psychological influence of you believing that after taking a pill, it will do wonders ), then clearly, the effects you are experiencing are due to increased IGF-1. IGF is said to build muscle mass ( by encouraging cellular division ) and decreases lipid/fat content. The other end results are due to the other hormones like the IgGs ( help destroy bacteria and virus ) and the other growth factors ( besides IGF ). So clearly it shows absorption if what you said is void of the placebo effect.

Did you say that igf-1 increases cartilage as well?

I'm not sure if my spinalcurvature is due to less or more cartilage in the spine.

Probaly less though, as my vertebraes through each throacic section and lumbar section seems like solid intact bone on the x-ray.
Doctors kept the x-rays and i didn't know what cartilage was back then perhaps igf-1 could actually form cartilage that makes the spinal curvature worser or better. Who knows?
Since im 44 degrees im expected to curve nothing since im skeletally matured in the spine. So until adulthood like late 30's-40s.

I'll tell you guys the result when i go to appointment on November 19.

Spinal curvature is a very common thing in most old people especially asians because they don't drink milk or can't so they get osteoporosis and then curve. Most do curve as humpback though (C curve) from spinal disc degenration. In adolescents people and babies that born with it its mostly because of genetics, nutrition or unknown.

As for Colostrum
I've seen some website where they say if u buy the capsules, just pour it on and its the same powder form. To use effectively don't swallow with water or food. If you do swallow with water or eat food with it then you require 2x the amount of colostrum. So don't waste your money man! Use your colostrum wisely. Besides it just tastes like milk.

For those who got lactose intolerancy, the gnc brand i bought seems ok i've only gotten once or twice upset stomachs from it. Or just pick brands that say reduced lactose.

yep scoliosis. relatively rare in australia I think.

Are you guys ALL from australia??? Aussies are damn tall though.

About the IGF-1...shouldn't we think of a way to put the IGF-1 into use into the bones instead of the muscles and the skin. Maybe something like jumping or something that uses bones more?

Please I really cant understand any of this. Im just gonna ask a list of questions I think many people want to know.
For people over 15 whos bones havent fused:

What should we take?

Will this have any negative effect on our growth?

How will it help us grow?



Thank you

Try reading the first post about 15 year olds ^^.

This is from another thread from some greg guy: "In one of your messages you said you grew, from the age of 19 to 26, almost 10cm by taking an anti-estrogen supplement. Can you please give me some advice on what to take?"

Woahhh is this true Dennis? That is quite amazing...if it is, I'm asking the same question he is :P

Dennis
,i have read some articles on Anavar, could it be used to increase the height of an 18 yr old? Does it hold similar side effects as other steroids, such as infertility? Im asking this as i know this is a steroid that doesnt stunt growth as it cant turn into estrogen, also that it is used to increase the height of children of short stature and i have heard some one say he grew, at 20 yrs old, by 1.5 inches in 3 months from taking 25 mg daily of anavar.

Yours sincerely

John

Post the article(s).

I might be thinking of publishing a dossier/journal on how to get taller based on what we have gathered - the information we have gathered so far... I was thinking of having different sections in it.. like

1. What you should do to grow taller in a nutshell ( just the steps, no explaining why, no speculation, no 'probably-works' therapies )
2. Therapies which might work
3. The basis behind the therapies in 1 and 2
4. An introduction to terms you will see regularly
5. Frequently Asked Questions archive

For the FAQ, maybe someone can kindly gather all the generic questions asked in this thread so that we can compile a substantial FAQ list. The FAQ will be very helpful. Instead of people asking questions I have answered time and again, the people can just look thru the FAQ to eliminate some unnecessary questions.

To smalldude :

I'm from australia yeah lol. Am 6'. Though probably ain't meant to be that tall.. I think I added at least 5-7cm to my predicted adult height . All thanks to me working in a pharamcy and smuggling little goods out. =)

Lol. Jumping or something wrongly can hurt your cartilage. And the IGF-1 is wasted to repair your cartilage instead!

And yeah about the Greg guy, I grew about 10cm from 19. I had late epiphyseal fusion as I was under anti-estrogens. Its a close to 6 year cycleof anti-estrogens and at the start it made me feel quite queasy but got better after that. Sure would be expensive if the money were from your pocket! But I smuggled it from the pharmacy I was working in! ( shhhh!! )

To Matt :

Matt, I think that the first part of the dossier I'll be making will address your questions. Meanwhile, look at the post I have already posted ( the first one - it doesn't contain much technicalities ( or at least I cared to explain )). If that doesn't answer your questions, do wait a few days as I get a dossier out to clarify matters and make things MUCH clearer.. Hope you can reach your desired height

To John :

Anavar is a steroid. I don't think it helps increase your height, though from what I read just now, it says that it simulates growth. Don't know how it simulates growth though. About the guy at 20 years old, probably he's having a second growth spurt. It is impossible to grow about 1cm a month in your 20s unless you're having a second spurt. Yes, from what I read it does not turn into estrogen ( is anabolic ). So might not harm to try it if you got the money ( but I think you might just be wasting it ). But I don't know how it works. Whether it works or anything. Maybe someone can give some insight on this??

To all :

I sincerely hope you all can grow taller. Your seriousness in growing taller ( and even trying to find out medical things to get taller ) have surprised me. I didn't expect such a plethora of questions that I am even overwhelmed sometimes by how to answer your questions!

By the way, to those who feel I have answered your questions inadequately, sorry cause I usually come back tired and sleepy so can't reply with the zeal I have on weekends! Also, I am not a know-all or a encyclopedia so am sincerely sorry if I can't answer your questions when they're not in my capacity. got to go now. cyall.

Dennis please we don't want you to get overwhelmed by questions, if you don't feel like answering/not sure about answer then do say so and we will gladly pass on.

Most people on here including myself are somewhat I would say 'addicted' to height increase. It's just something they want, they don't care if it matters or not or what it would cost them. It's just stuck in our heads, and it's hard to get it out until you achieve the hieght.

As for the journal, I will be willing to help you out.

As for now, I think one of the major question stands which anti-estrogen to use. I don't think people would have a hard time getting Tamoxifen for $50 a month, but I'm not sure about the others. By the way which anti-estrogen worked for you? It was probably arimidex...

Ok I am responding to you at this forum so I hope you are content now , although I don't mind. I was telling you that I bought 6-OXO which is an estrogen blocker from vitamin shoppe. IT restores testosterone production, suppresses estrogen production, and naturally occuring. Here are some facts about 6-oxo:

ErgoPharm - 6-OXO

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ErgoPharm 6-OXO contains a naturally occurring aromatase inhibitor that is devoid of any direct hormonal or prohormonal activity (androgenic or estrogenic). Reduce the production of estrogen in the body with ergopharm 6-oxo. The most effective natural compound to combat estrogen.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


The First Effective All Natural Aromatase Inhibitor!
See more in: Pro-Hormone/Pro-Steroid
More products from: ErgoPharm The Real Way to Halt Estrogen ErgoPharm, the hormone authority and creator of 1-AD, has now developed the most effective natural compound to combat estrogen - 6-OXO.

6-OXO contains a naturally occurring aromatase inhibitor that is devoid of any direct hormonal or prohormonal activity (androgenic or estrogenic). It is what science refers to as a suicide inhibitor of aromatase. Specifically this means that it will irreversibly bind to the aromatase enzyme and permanently deactivate it. With prolonged use of 6-OXO the result will be a very substantial reduction in the production of estrogen in the body, along with a coinciding up-regulation of natural (testicular) testosterone production.

The Evils of Estrogen
In males, higher than normal estrogen levels (or estrogen levels that are out of balance with androgen levels) can lead to several physiological disturbances. The most well known estrogen induced malady is, of course, gynecomastia (aka gyno or bitch tits). Gyno, simply put, is the growth of breast tissue in men. Usually gyno is a benign growth that is little more than a cosmetic nuisance, however it occasionally (rarely) can become malignant and lead to male breast cancer. Either way, it is something than definitely is anathema to any guy that takes pride in his physical appearance and musculature. Rock hard pecs topped off with puffy cone shaped girlie lumps are simply not for showing off - at least not in my neighborhood.

High estrogen can also promote excessive water and sodium retention, resulting in a bloated, puffy, and smooth appearance. Steroids that aromatize heavily (such as testosterone and Anadrol) are renowned for putting on lots of bodyweight. However, that body weight usually is in large part estrogen induced water retention, and certainly not all muscle.

If all this is not enough then there is the potent inhibitory effect of estrogen on the hypothalamus, resulting in a shutdown of testicular testosterone production. Science has demonstrated that perhaps the most important regulator of testosterone production in males is estrogen - produced by the conversion of testosterone (and other androgens) to estrogen in the body and the brain. Estrogen sends a signal to the hypothalamus to shut down production of a substance known as GnRH. GnRH is a hormone that stimulates the pituitary to produce luteinizing hormone (LH) which is the signal that tells the testicles to produce testosterone. Therefore, men with elevated estrogen levels will have suppressed testosterone levels and perhaps even atrophied testes. Not a pretty picture, eh?

Controlling estrogen in males

Bodybuilders who use steroids caught on years ago to drugs that control estrogen in the body. The first drugs to be utilized were estrogen receptor antagonists such as tamoxifen and clomiphene. These drugs worked by binding to the estrogen receptor like estrogens do, but unlike estrogens they are unable to translocate to the nucleus and activate estrogen responsive genes. While these drugs are somewhat effective in countering gynecomastia and testicular shut down, they still retain some estrogenic activity in certain tissues such as the liver. The result of this residual estrogenic activity can be a reduction in IGF-1 production and an increase in sex hormone binding globulin (SHBG) production. These are both undesirable side effects.

Later on, bodybuilders discovered aromatase inhibitors. These drugs work by blocking the production of estrogens in the body through binding to the enzyme aromatase. Aromatase catalyzes the transformation of aromatizable androgens (i.e. androstenedione, testosterone) into estrogens such as estrone and estradiol. By actually blocking the production of estrogens altogether, aromatase inhibitors do not share the undesirable estrogen agonist activity of estrogen receptor blockers. Instead they function as true anti-estrogens, and because of this have arisen as the most preferred compounds for combating estrogen.

6-OXO™, the first effective all natural aromatase inhibitor

Before I go into detail about 6-OXO™, I would like to give a very brief review and commentary on the current variety of estrogen blocking supplements.

The first estrogen blocking supplement to be introduced, and perhaps the most popular one to date is the isoflavone chrysin. Yes, chrysin has some good in-vitro ("test tube") research on it that demonstrates it blocks aromatase. However, for years many experts including myself have contended that it suffers from very poor bioavailability, and therefore is ineffective in-vivo. Recently, an article has been published in a very reputable journal that substantiates this suspicion. So chrysin, as promising as it once seemed, unfortunately appears to be a total bust.

After chrysin there was Indole-3-carbinol and Di-indoylmethane. These related compounsds work by shifting the metabolism of estrogens away from strong estrogen compounds (16-hydroxylated) and towards weaker estrogens (2-hydroxylated). This can have benefits for women prone to breast cancer as 16-hydroxylated estrogens are quite notorious for promoting estrogen dependent breast cancer. However, there has never been any benefit demonstrated in men for reducing estrogen related effects or for increasing androgen levels. In fact, these compounds may actually REDUCE androgen levels. So for males looking to reduce estrogen and raise testosterone, I-3-C and DIM are poor choices.

In addition to these aforementioned compounds there have been a slew of other compounds sold for estrogen control purposes. These include bioflavonoids such as quercitin, herbs such as Vitex Agnus Castus, and phytochemicals such as resveratrol (3,5,4'-trihydroxystilbene). None of these has ever been substantiated by any research to reduce estrogen levels or to increase testosterone levels.

6-OXO™

After years of research into natural estrogen blockers I finally discovered a compound that really truly works, in males, to both reduce estrogen and increase testosterone. Its called 6-OXO™.

6-OXO™ is what is known as a suicide inhibitor of aromatase. This means that 6-OXO™ binds to the aromatase enzyme in a permanent and irreversible manner, rendering it inactive. The result of this is an eventual diminishment of aromatase enzyme in the body and a concomitant reduction in estrogen levels. A corresponding increase in testosterone production is usually experienced as well.

It is important to note here that this deactivation of aromatase enzymes by 6-OXO™ does not mean that your body becomes permanently deficient in the ability to synthesize estrogen. Your body will react to the deficiency of enzyme by producing more enzyme to replace that which has been deactivated. Therefore, when you stop taking 6-OXO™ your aromatase enzyme level will quickly catch up to normal and full estrogen production will resume.

When and how you should use 6-OXO™

There are two main situations where 6-OXO™ can come in useful. The first situation is in combating estrogen elevation while taking aromatizable prohormones or steroids. Aromatizable prohormones/ steroids include testosterone, testosterone precursors (4-androstenedione, 4-androstenediol), nortestosterone, nortestosterone precursors (19-nor-4-androstenedione, 19-nor-4-androstenediol), and synthetic anabolic steroids such as oxymetholone (Anadrol) and methandrostenolone (Dianabol).

The second situation where 6-OXO™ stands very useful is in restoring full endogenous testosterone production after a cycle of prohormones or steroids. Prohormones and steroids act as replacements for natural testosterone, and as a consequence, prolonged usage of these substances results in the body resetting the level of its own natural testosterone production. Your body does this by adjusting the activity of the hypothalamic pituitary testicular axis, or HPTA. The HPTA acts like a thermostat that constantly adjusts the body's production of testosterone to maintain a certain level in the blood. The hypothalamus is the primary sensor in this system, and it responds to both androgens (i.e. testosterone, DHT) and estrogens (derived from aromatization of androgens). The hypothalamus is so sensitive to estrogens in fact that administration of an estrogen blocker can often result in a very substantial surge in testosterone production. This is why steroid using bodybuilders take products such as Clomiphene (an estrogen receptor antagonist) and Anastrazole (an aromatase inhibitor) after cycles to jump-start their suppressed testicular testosterone production. Now, with the introduction of 6-OXO™, there is a natural - over the counter alternative available to these prescription only drugs.

Okay, am I saying that one has to be a prohormone or steroid user to find 6-OXO™ useful? Certainly not! Even if you never touch prohormones/steroids you can obtain a very substantial and beneficial increase in natural testosterone production by taking nothing but 6-OXO™. For those that are wary of hormonal supplements and their effects on the bodies endocrine balance, yet still want to obtain the benefits of increased testosterone levels, 6-OXO™ offers a very safe and effective alternative.

So how does one use 6-OXO™?
If you are using it to combat estrogen during a cycle of aromatizable steroids then you can take it every day of your cycle, once a day (preferably with your evening meal) at a dosage of 200-600 mg. If you are using it to jump-start your testosterone production after a cycle of prohormones (or just to increase your own natural production in a clean state) then you would also take 200-600mg of 6-OXO™ once a day, for a period of 3-6 weeks.

Other Ingredients:
Micro crystalline cellulose.

Directions:
As a dietary supplement, take 3 to 6 capsules at night with last meal. Take for cycles of 4 to 6 weeks.

Warnings:
Keep out of the reach of children. Consult with your physician before using this product. Do not take this product if you have prostate hypertrophy. Not recommended for persons under the age of 18.

Before beginning any program of weight loss, consult your health care practitioner. These statements have not been evaluted by the FDA. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease.








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Thanks for posting that article about 6-OXO...but I thought we were told that INCREASING TESTOSTERONE was NOT GOOD FOR GROWTH.

Am I correct in saying that our goal is to DECREASE TESTOSTERONE AND virtually ELIMINATE ESTROGEN?

Also, where can i find COLOSTRUM...I don't know where to look.

GNC or some other supplement stores, or you can order online.

Actually the main idea behind reducing testosterone is to reduce your estrogen levels. Testosterone and estrogen levels are interconnected by the enzyme aromatase or P450 family. Testosterone is aromatised into estrogen and thus having lower testosterone levels can result in lower estrogen levels. The purpose of LHRH and dusrelin analogs is to reduce testosterone in order to negate pubertal effects and to delay the onset of characteristics of puberty, including epiphyseal fusion. Estrogen plays a major role in epiphyseal fusion however there is no substantial evidence that testosterone actually has a direct role in epiphyseal fusion. I believe that testosterone and estrogen both have a part to play in your body and thus drastically reducing them ( as done in cancer patients ) may result in abnormal bodily function to a certain extent. Thus I hope that you will excercise caution with these drugs and stop them when any consequences develop. Decreasing your estrogen levels might not result in many side effects. However, decreasing your testosterone levels can result in dire consequences.

Regarding your post on 6OXO, I have no idea what 6OXO is and thus am unable to comment to that respect. I believe that it would be safer to stick to prescription drugs and supplements that are tried and tested, especially since you are already in your 20s, when you are about to stop growing. All the more should you do prescription anti-estrogens or anti-androgens, if you do not want to take the risk of the medicine not working.

There is no 'home' method, or 'home kit' of testing whether your blood serum testosterone and estrogen levels are decreased. So the only way you can do so is through painful and expensive medical blood tests; or as I have heard, saliva tests.

I wish you all the best on your growing and regret that I am unable to assist you in your enquiry on 6-OXO.

Dennis i am reall bewildered with so many things. Thanks for taking the time out to respond to all of us but I need to know a way to grow taller without prescribed estrogen blockers because the doctor won't give it to me because I am tall already but 5'11 is ok at 21. I wanto grow 2 to 4 inches more so please tell me any supplements I can take because estrogen blockers is not an option. SHould I lift weights or do stretching exercises. Please respond fast because i will turn 22 in the end of Jan coming up 4 months about. I know there is something out there that will help me without prescribed stuff. ANybody besides dennis can give me feed back also. WHat about colostrum

Hi, glad to help. You can get estrogen blockers from pharmacies on the net also, without prescription - though we don't really know what we're taking until we send them for lab checks. Online pharmacy there are many, sure you can find them out... Colostrum you can get it from GNC. Get centrum m-vs. Plenty of sleep. Healthy diet. LHRH Analog is out of option cause you are already tall enough and you are already in your twenties. and you are undergoing depression or schizophrenia? ( you said doctor prescribed a psychiatric medicine? ). might want try your luck with chrysin also, as estrogen blocker.

Some things about hGH: I know that hGH is produced by the gland, and then after around 20 mins or so is converted to IGF-1 by the liver. Some people said that an insulin jump is required to get hGH converted or something like that. They said eat 5-6 meals a day so it promotes insulin which promotes IGF-1(hence insulin growth factor-1). Kinda wierd if you ask me, but it could be true?

i went gnc, and they still dont sell chysin,and i got a lecture in why i want it, the guy thought i was on steroids or something, he goes your not growing tits and turning into a women, why do you want it for ? are you crazy. so what is the cheapest annitive to chysin, or where else can i get it from, i wont get a job until dec, cause of my course doesnt finsh till then, am on youth allance, so it hard for me to get the discription drugs online with out discription, because of the money.

I just found a promising mexican pharmacy with a well-designed website. Its either genuine or a very very good scam. Maybe someone can get tamoxifen from them and see the tablets they send to you? The colour, weight, etc. If possible can send for lab tests.. According to the website, no prescription (rx) required.

http://www.myrxforless.com/

Tamoxifen tablets sold there.. ( http://www.myrxforless.com/pharmacy/product-infosheet.asp?ID=494 )

$49 for 100 tabs of strength 10mg.

Maybe someone can order it from them and shed some light on the quality?

Dennis, I just noticed I haven't grown even 1 mm since the past 6 months(marking on the wall) I thought I would atleast grow 1 cm a year(aged 19). Is this a bad sign that my plates are already closed ? Or do adults grow only some months a year and not all year around.

My doc won't allow a bone scan since nothing is broken and my height is not a disability or anything(5'7ish). Maybe I should look into those private chiropractors down my street, and ask them for one.

I would trust this site more, tad bit more pricier though:

http://www.drugstore.com/pharmacy/prices/drugprice.asp?ndc=00310060060&trx=1Z5006

I am getting the estrogen blockers from the pharmacy John listed and also will get Colostrum from Gnc. I hope this helps me because I am going to be 22 on january 27. So I hiope estrogen blockers and Colostrum are enough. DO I really need chrysin because all of this is pretty expensive for sure. I sometimes get less sleep but always try to sleep 8 hours. Is it ok if I sometimes sleep less because sometimes that does happen.If you dont mind can I have your phone number to call you for immediate response, again if you dont mind. Mine is 718 238 1517 or 646 522 2193 cell.

howe much of tamoxifen should i take to start with.should i take the recommmende dose or less

sorry for short reply. im in the office now. tamoxifen 10mg daily to be taken before sleep. im writing a journal in my free time and will distribute by end of this week if pssible. next week i'll be going to sydney for a course but will bring a laptop there so i can check every now and then.

on second thoughts since u are already 22. take 2 10mg tabs daily. ( total of 20mg ). check for bone fusion. if your bones are fused, you are wasting your money..

I am not yet 22. I still have 4 months to go. Please tell me how to get tamoxifen without prescription because I tried to go to the medpharmacy and they are asking for prescription. Before you go sydney please reply so I can order it.Please tell me fast. also havea good time in sydney. So I guess colostrum and tamoxifen would be sufficient. I don't need chrysin right? Do you think the music to make you grow helps from www.growthburst.com.

Raja please have your bones scanned the first thing. I have known of cases that have bones fused at even at 18. And you're wasting your time and money if your bones have been fused. And please remember that you'll have to take anti-estrogen for long term(3-5years). It's not a magic pill that will make you grow.

Dennis you still didn't answer my question, although it's not a very hard one .

Raja ..i have the growthburst cd , i will inform you if i see results

John:
Like i said with the spine fused first then the legs and arms.

16-17 is the average age according to a general practition and a scoliosis/orthapedic surgeon where the spine fuses.

Since you can't do a hip x-ray in the public health system, i'm sure a private radiology clinic would provide the x-ray for you. Whether the radiologist there tells you if its fused its up to them but it ain't hard to see a white part above the hip crest and below the lumbar 5, sacrum.

If it's all complete white on both side of hip then your spine is fused.

Search on google.com for risser sign if you don't get it.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

My surgeon has said you grow about 1-2 cm each year until the limbs are fused too. More, i guess if your spine isn't fused. He also said that thats for an average person. Some people can get growth spurts and some people can't so they might not even grow 1mm.

An x-ray can show if you are going to have a growth spurt anytime soon.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Raja:
Lol i know how you feel. I too have asked if they could prescribe me anti-estrogens. They laugh and asked if i had breast cancer. Although, im a guy.

Perhaps try Dennis' Mexican Pharmacy link. They don't require prescriptions because they trust you know how much to take and its uses.

Could SF please send me details on your 72 stretching exercise routine please. Thanks
Michaelho888@hotmail.com

Mike please...don't spam your message on every thread.
SF has been long gone from these forums.

I am still working on the journal but will post a reply to the question you posed earlier.

Yes, smalldude, what you said is correct ( the first part ). No insulin is required to get HGH converted. IGF-1 and insulin are linked one-way - IGF-1 regulates insulin levels. Taking insulin does not mean you will have increased IGF-1. Eating a lot does make insulin in your digestive tract but it doesn't increase IGF. IGF is similar in structure to Insulin but they are two different proteins.

Dennis you don't need any help with the journal? Collecting questions or anything technical? I feel the need to return the favor...you've helped us out so much even with your hectic job.

Hi , I´m a 22 year old guy and i´m giving the stretching journals a shot. Can you please advice on suplements that could give me a little help? Thank you for your time and all the help you´ve been giving us.

Read the first post please...
Why are people asking the same question over and over again, if you read the first post carefully, you'll find that you need:
1)anti-estrogen
2)colostrum

And please get a bone scan first to see if the growth plates are open still or you're wasting alot of money.

Thanks john, would you please collect the 'general' questions asked and my typical bad habit overly-long-answer-to-a-short-question? Thatld be helpful..lol. Thanks a lot!

Well In two months I'll be 17 and as for a female I stand only 5 feet tall. Which I think it's kind of sad. My mom is around 5'1-5'2 and my dad is around 5'7-5'8. Thus I was just wondering is it still possible for me to grow taller [2-3 inches or even 4]?? What would be your recommendations?? From reading many of the posts I realized that I should develop a good healthy lifestyle, but would it be too late if I start now?? I just want to grow so badly, but I'm losing hope and it makes me feel terrible. Also, would joining yoga or stretching classes help in height gain? Any other opinions will be greatly appreciated!! thanx in advance!!

To Dennis and to everyone esle who's answering questions on this forum, Thank you so much!!! All of you are great people who are helping others and finding light and hope in their life!

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=12188088

Hey Dennis I think I understand now why in this study there were no significant elevated levels of IGF-1:
The fact is that in BOTH the control and the other it raised IGF-1 levels, and there was no difference between the two.We don't tend to notice is that the control group had WHEY PROTEIN powder after exercise. This alone raises HGH levels to the roof when consumed right after exercise, which would be converted in to IGF-1 after 15-20 mins.
What do ya think?

Oh and here are the questions/answers, most of them, I'll try to find more later:

What do you think about stretching/hanging/inversion exercises?
As I said, I am unclear about orthopaedics as I do endocrine systems by profession ( though I got a 4year MD ).Chances of you getting osteoarthritis should be pretty high, especially when the damage process exceeds the repair/regeneration and ossification process.

Should I take prohormones, creatine, protein powder to raise HGH levels?
No, you're better off raising your IGF-1 levels with colostrum than HGH levels. Stop Hgh therapy immediately.

What does IGF-1 do?
1. IGF-1 builds cartilage
2. IGF-1 is a key factor in pubertal growth
3. IGF-1 is dependent on amount of HGH
4. IGF-1 stays longer in the bloodstream as compared to HGH
5. It is safer to take IGF-1 supplementation rather than HGH supplementation, which either don't work, or when taken orally, are taken in very minute amounts.

Won't IGF-1 cause HGH levels to drop?
GF-1 will cause growth hormone secretion to drop. But IGF-1 happens to be more powerful to growth hormone in causing bone growth. In fact, the main route of action of HGH is via IGF-1.

Weight lifting is a bad idea when trying to gain height?
Just don't go overboard and hurt your growth plates.

What do you think about Chrysin/BiotestM/60x0/Bodybuilding anti estrogens?
I don't have any experience with them, so I can't encourage or condemn them.
I only have experience with prescribed anti-estrogens.

Please tell me how to get tamoxifen without prescription because I tried to go to the pharmacy and they are asking for prescription?
Try www.drugstore.com or http://www.myrxforless.com/, but then again no one is sure that these are valid genuine sites.(a lab test would be nice)

Should I drink 3-4 cups of milk?
No, keep the milk to a maximum of 1-2 glasses per day.

Is masterbating bad for height?
Don't masturbate more than 1-2 times a week. And take zinc when you do masterbate since your body lose alot of zinc, which will boost your estrogen levels.

Which vitamins are crucial for growth?
Thiamin (as Thiamin Mononitrate) 75 mg
Riboflavin (Vitamin B-2) 75 mg
Niacin (as Niacinamide) 75 mg
Folic Acid 400 mcg
Vitamin B-12 (as Cyanocobalamin) 75 mg
Calcium (as Calcium Carbonate) 100 mg
Iodine (as Kelp) 150 mcg
Zinc (as Zinc Oxide) 15 mg
Copper (as Copper Sulfate) 250 mcg
Manganese (as Manganese Sulfate) 6 mcg
Boron (as Boron Citrate) 100 mcg
Choline (as Choline Bitartrate) 35 mg

Which anti-estrogen is the best one?
Arimidex, but it is also the most expensive. Or you can go with Tamoxifen.

I've just talked to my doctor today and basically he said that anti-estrogen is a NO NO for girls because you don't want a girl to start growing a mustache(sp). He basically advise me to drink skim milk and do exercises and things like that. He also said that genetic is the number one factor in growth and yoga has nothing to do with growing. I'm so sad now...cause my mom is short and I'm not even taller then her YET.

gentrics dont play a big role on growth, you diet,lifestyle do, i suppose to have my grand pa's gentrics and he's 6 foot, and am only 5'8, and my other grand pa taller than my dad, and my cousin 6'1 and his parents are small, and i know heaps ppl who out grow the parents by 7 inches, and ppl who never out grow their dads, so thats not true.

hopefully i can buy this one soon, from the mexican pharmcy, with arimidex, if am to take it for 6 months, and i dont grow a cm, then is it likely that my bones are fused, because getting a bone scan, isnt something my doctor would do for me, so am just going to have to gamble and invest money and hopefully am lucky, cause even i cm in growth, will prove that i got a bit of growth left.

I went 2 the doctor n he made me take a blood test 2 which I still haven't gotten the results bak eventhough it's been a month now....I m so mad...n I'm the shortest gurl in most my classes in high school....n the doctor said tht I'm gonna b short cause my mom's really really short...n I'm even taller than her yet I'm 4"10...tht's really sad...
Krystal...ur doctor told u 2 drink skim milk n exercise...rite....well my doctor said tht pull ups won't help n stuff n genetics n blood factors r all tht matter....but he's not a specialist in growth so he prob doesn't kno everythin bout growth...tell me if n e of u went 2 the doctors....n the doctor said n e thing different... I really don't wanna believe wht my doctor said....so I'll exercise till I drop...

Hmm I'm guessing Dennis isn't back from sydney yet. I'll do my best to answer questions.

Krystal:If your doctor advises you that, then I would listen to him. Your doctor knows your body way more than Dennis or anyone here.

Jay:No, you're wrong. Height is usually 90% genetics and 10% environment, diet, etc. I've heard of that ratio alot.
Try to find a private clinic, which will do the bone scan for you. Anything even a chiropractor,radiology clinic. Dennis said it might be even 1cm a year at your age. So, I wouldn't risk $2000 or so, unless you're filthy rich.

Sonia: Your growth spurt might have not even started yet. Wait for those results, oh and if it hasn't started yet, your doc will probably put you on HGH therapy. Have you had your first period yet?

my dad 5'5 and am 5'8, so i must have my dad gentrics, not grand pa's, i dont look like him through, i still dont understand how ppl out grow there dad by a whopping 7 inches >if gentric is 90% of the case, i think am like the two gals, i have not much chance, am not even close to rich, so i just take a multi-vitiam, and colostrum and do swimming for 2-4 hours a day, however i think kev got lucky and had a second growth spurt, because growing from 5'8 to 6foot at 18-19 show's that.

After finishing my 45 day supply of gnc colostrum lozenges. I have switched to symbiotics colostrum imported from new zealand. I've bought the powder ones and on the bottle it says its world's best selling colostrum. It is also known fact that powder form contains more growth factors(IGF-1,2, etc).

As for me about heightincrease, I find it very difficlt to measure my height. Somedays on same hour i measure 5'5.5. Some days 5'6. Some days 5'3.

I guess it's because of my bad posture and spinal curvature(scoliosis).

Summary:
Improved Overall Sleep(Could be improved release of melatonin)
Less Bacteria in the Throat/mouth
Muscle mass on both biceps without weighttraining
Fat Loss in both legs
Improved wound healing
Improved Overall Mood? (Could be improved release dophamine)
Rain is no longer a big deal to me

Bubbletea, could you paste the source where you got the colostrum for. What do you mean by the rain? Oh and also, I was wondering why you are taking colostrum even if your bones are fused. It does have lots of benefits i suppose.

Well smalldude seems like you the only one alive ehhehe

First, i bought it at NutritionHouse, Vitamin Store in Canada.

Second, if you read carefully of what i post you would see that for the 3rd or 4th time.

Dr. Tredwell has said that the spine fuses first then the limbs.
Who the hell is he?
http://www.cw.bc.ca/orthopaedics/index.asp#tredwell
Goes to meetings at least once every month and met with other scoliosis surgeons around the world to discuss methods and issues.

An MRI(Magnetic Resonance Imaging) of the whole body has determined that i do have indeed have some growth left in my limbs but not any big growth spurts. Along with that MRI clears the issue of any neurological disease i may have.

Yes i am indeed fused from the spine and doctors here tell me i won't be gaining any cms in the spine. As they are more closed and not open about height growth in spine area after its fused.

I think you people should listen to a world class orthapedic surgeon (about the spine fuse first then limbs) who is like in his 50's and 60's over Dennis in my honorable opinion. Not that Dennis is not professional or anything it's that a doctor who has more then 20 years of experience gives you more trust and self confidence.

Like would you be more comfortable if a medical student does say Ilizarov limb-lengthening surgery on you?

I'm very lucky to be in Canada, where 1 monthly fee of $108.00 for my working parents can give me the benefits of public health care which would give me the best surgeons possible. Along with CT,MRI,Ultrasound,X-ray,blood tests if i had a reason for it.

I mean 1 MRI scan costs about $1000..
If i do Scoliosis correction surgery.. $80,000 would be cost in USA which i can live for 20 years and pay my premiums for health care and still never worth the price of $80,000

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Jay and the rest
As far as nutrition goes, perhaps you should just go take a blood test. Just ask any public doctor that you feel weakness or you don't seem to be gaining weight or muscle and then they will allow you. A blood test can show if you lack any minerals like copper,zinc,calcium,iron,etc.

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My posts maybe long but i only speak the truth. Some of the people here seem to be more closed up and don't seem to help others but just come here to see what works and buy it or do it. I hope for the best of you people.

That maybe the fastest way and least time consuming but if you studied in Geography and Biology you'll realize what you do, eat can effect you later on in life.

smalldude about rain
When it's a rainy day i no longer feel pissed because my hair will be wet or my clothes,etc. I can freely walk in the rain no problem.

If you didn't know i have tried ecstacy, alcohol and cigarettes.

They all trigger the release of dopamine or block enzymes that make dopamine levels last longer. So that you become happy for longer periods of time.

I'm thinking what colostrum does is that either the increased melatonin caused my mood to be better and more energy when i wake up and/or dopamine is also increased so that i feel happier then before without the need of cigarettes,etc.

Both in studies have show have been linked to mood changes.

The fusion of the spine first makes sense to me, in my case especially I grew from my spine first, then my legs. I'm not sure what Dennis said about the spine fusion, but yes you should listen to the orthopaedic rather than a endo when it comes to bones.

Yes, it's true it only looks like the other people just come by and see what others post and look for that magical line "YES THIS WILL MAKE YOU 3 INCHES TALLER" and then leave. Everyone should really contribute, as far as research and products go.

I think I already had a litle growth spurt cause bak when I was 12...I got 3 inches taller...n I I was like 4"5 in 3rd grade 2 bout 4"8 in 5th grade n now I'm 4"10 n sumtimes I measure myself 2 b 4"9.5....so I'm scared.... hopefully...there's another growth spurt cummin my way for my height...since I once read tht teenage gurls get 2 growth spurts...only when they 1st start pueberty n one when they're bout 16 n 17...n I'm 14... does drinkin a lot of milk help get taller since it has IGF-1? but tht cause like cancer... n I m under the average height well on the lowest line there is for my age on the growth height chart....so I think I prob have GHD...cause my mom mite have had it since she is even shorter than me...n same with my aunt... wuld regular multi vitamins I can get at medicine section of wal mart or krogers help me get taller?

if n e of u r really really short like me.... find ppl tht r short as u or shorter as u... tht'll make u feel better....cause in my school there r upperclassmen who r short as me or shorter...n I feel much better bout my height!

One thing that I have regularly heard is that too much milk is a bad idea. I heard that the best amount was two drinks in a day. I dunno if anyone else can back me up on that one?

As far as two growth spurt... yes, I've heard of that, but it isn't guaranteed. Here's hoping anyways!

Simon

Dennis and all,
Sorry for bothering you guys again but I can't get the bone scan because I can't find a endocrinologist that accepts my insurance(Medicaid) in NY. How much does the bone scan cost? I guess I will have to take a chance and have faith I will grow with God by my side by taking Colosturm and Anti estrogen from Mexican Pharmacy, I am very upset to decide what I want to do. Please tell me some other suggestions because I appreciate all your comments, except the scammers suggestions. Is there any stretching exercise I can do or just take a chance with colostum and anti-estrogen? Please tell me because I will be 22 very soon and my birthday is coming up? This is the best gift I can give myself, even for Christmas because I am very height conscious, especially my brother being taller then me.

Sonia-----Yes a second spurt is possible, but don't count on it to be 3 inches or more, it will be more like 1-2 inches. I think if you get to atleast 5 feet, you will be fine as a girl. But then again anythings possible. Why don't you get a bone scan to find out? At your height, it's very likely that your doc will administer hgh therapy if your bones arent fused. And yes keep it to a max of 2 glasses of milk, and get a good multivitamin such as GNC multivitamin that absorb better. Remember keep your diet, on a 40% protein 40% carbs and 20% fat, or somewhere around there and 8-9 hrs of sleep and youll be fine.

Raja------- try to find a private clinic that will do the bonescan for you, try chiropractors and radiology clinics, or ask your doc what to do. At 22, there's a highly likley chance that your bones are fused, so I wouldn't risk that much money. You can give stretching a shot.

Hi guys,
why you said milk is better two time each day?
What's wrong in higher doses?

I take 1/2 Liter each days, saomedays 1L.

What can we do if we are over 20/25, I'm 26
my bones aren't so old, but I don't want to go for x-ray to determinate bones age.

I think something is possible, because I heard about people grew by radiaction, this was bad for other 1000 reasons, but this means our body can grow over 25 by justness stimulation.

What stimulation is the question.

My cousin grew from 5.4 to 5.8 at 19, but I think it was late puberty or something like this, I remeber, now my cousin is 21, he taken any drugs like acids, marijuana ecstasy ecc.........
Now we have been able to take him out off.
I was pain.

This to explane my think, I think something can help our growth, what?

regards...later...