We moved my 3.8 y/o out of his crib 7 nights ago. It is a decision that is causing me so much agony. He cant seem to just settle and go to sleep, he is up walking around in his room, looking at books. He will usually fall asleep around 11 pm, compared to a crib bedtime of 7:30.

We still follow the same bedtime routine as before. Bath, books, then hugs and kisses and good night. I have been sitting on the floor next to his bed for a few minutes, but it seems like it only keeps him awake. He has one of those starry turtles for light in his room (with the crib, we used to leave a table lamp on. Now he says the table lamp is too much light, so it is turned off but still in his room and he could turn it on if he wanted it. I am thankful he is not in his room crying, but just wish he could get more sleep as I know he needs it.

I figured this partying would go on for a night or two, but he is still keeping up the pace on the 7th night. He knows not to come out of his room, but I can hear him up there rambling around in his room.

With DS#1, I made the mistake of holding him until he was asleep when he transitioned into his big boy bed. To this day, I have to sit with him and hold his hand while he goes to sleep. I love my boys dearly, but my entire evening revolves around putting them to sleep!! I dont want to make the same mistake with #2, yet this method of letting him figure it out for himself doesnt seem to be working either.

Experience? insight? help!!!

Edited to add: this child is sheer joy during the day. Happy, easy to get along with, easygoing, a dreamboat. He just quit diapers two weeks ago and has done beautifully with potty training. Its just this sleep thing!!

Thanks!!

Pink

is he still good-natured even with so little sleep? If so, I'd give it another week or two, at least, on his own.

Honestly, I haven't been a micro-manager of sleep since ds was about 2 or 3, after I took the initial Love and Logic course. I was before that. Both dh and I took turns staying with ds until he was asleep. I can see that it's not practical with 2, esp. since you're already roped into that with ds #1. L&L said that as long as the child gets up at the normal time and doesn't irritate other family members, leave it alone. The few sleepless nights that ds had, we told him he could do what he wanted if he was quiet, stayed in his room and didn't bother us, but his wake-up time wouldn't change, and he had to be cheerful and polite in the a.m. I think I also said the lights had to be off. He has rarely stayed up more than 1 hour past bed time.

Sometimes he is groggy in the a.m., and if he starts complaining, we tell him he needs an earlier bed time.

Congratulations on the potty-training! I wonder if the 2 transitions coming at the same time are disconcerting? I remember the p/t being that way for ds.




Keiki's Makuahine (Keiki's Mom) 51, dh 52
Keiki: b. 2002 after 3 months bedrest
Natural conception following ZIFT/chem. pg

Olivia: b. 1999 d. 1999
28-week preemie, ptl cause unknown
Natural conception after 1 mc

ttc since 1998

He is still his sweet self during the day. He has to be awakened the last few mornings, but gets up willingly and in a good mood. He is in full time daycare, and his teachers just love his disposition.

Im going to try and give it more time, but its tough to watch him get so little sleep, knowing how important it is to his health. My initial thought was like yours, that he will figure it out and start putting himself to bed. I feel a little guilty that I ruined my formerly good sleeper (DS#1) by holding him until he was asleep once he got in the big bed, and have vowed I wont make the same mistake with this little guy. Im still wondering how I will ever get the older one (5) to put himself to sleep; I dont foresee it in the near future.

And yes, maybe 2 transitions so close is a little much. I didnt plan the potty training, he just decided one day that he wanted undies (the same way my older son trained!). And I bought the bed because it seemed like he wasnt sleeping well in the crib lately, and I figured it was because he was getting too cramped between his growing body and the many stuffed animals and books that he must have with him at night!

Im glad to hear that your DS is a good sleeper using this approach! I love L&L when I remember to apply it!!

Pink

interesting problem. I too was thinking if he's grumpy the day then it's a problem but he isn't. What a kid

I am curious, how old is your first boy?
Our ds still has to have someone with him, preferable cuddling him but can cope if his hand is held while I stay next to DD to cuddle HER to sleep. I don't regret doing it this way (cuddling) because before long I'll be shut out of their lives and they do get comfort out of it--this is me justifying LOL. and while part of me knows that in a year. maybe two, he'll not need us this way anymore, some nights, I'd like to see them scamper off to bed without a complaint and just get to sleep solo. I rarely feel this way but when I do, I feel guilty about perhaps enabling them in this.

Have you tried: you are a big boy now, it's your job to get to bed at bedtime. (don't mention big boy bed, he'll blame the bed for having to go to bed)
Then ignore if he gets out of bed as long as he stays in the room and isn't disruptive. I figure the novelty of this new freedom will wear out, although I bet this is what you were thinking too and I too think 7 days is enough time for novelty to wear out. Maybe it takes longer for him to get tired of something; how nice. But a pain in this though LOL
If he is noisy, I'd repeat the "your job" bit and add that it's ok to check out a toy or two but to do it quietly.
If that still doesn't shorten his exploring time, I'd repeat above and that the toy can be checked out on the bed.

good luck, hopefully all this advice will be moot by night number 9.


julie


me:43, DH 44
FSH 26
DS: born by c-sec Apr15'03, 9lbs5oz 41wks gest. (after 4 years of ttc, starting in 1998)
DD born by c-sec Oct 13 2007, 8lbs13oz 39wk gest. (after just under 3 years of ttc)
~~DS was conceived naturally the cycle following a cancelled DE IVF, using my good friend's eggs. She was on the verge of hyperstimming.
~~DD's nat conception I attribute to using OPKs like a crazy nut, eating grapefruit daily and using preseed. also 5 cycles of TCM ending 2 cycles before that lucky cycle.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I don't regret snuggling with ds at night, but I realize that if you have multiple kids in separate bedrooms, that's logistically challenging.




Keiki's Makuahine (Keiki's Mom) 51, dh 52
Keiki: b. 2002 after 3 months bedrest
Natural conception following ZIFT/chem. pg

Olivia: b. 1999 d. 1999
28-week preemie, ptl cause unknown
Natural conception after 1 mc

ttc since 1998

putting them in the same room. We bought DS #2 twin bunk beds with this in mind. I think they may help each other sleep, after many nights of party city!! LOL!! Its just the party city that is daunting. And the thought of daredevil #2 DS climbing that ladder up and down all night long!

Pink

My older son is 5 1/2. While I have enjoyed the cuddling over the years, I now realize that I have not done him any favors--he wont be able to go to the cousins to sleep over or go anywhere overnight without me because he just cries and cries and cant fall asleep if Im not there to hold his hand to go to sleep. Even my husband cant comfort him when Im away at bedtime. If I try to just have a couple minutes of hand holding and then say goodnight, he has a total meltdown with crying and screaming. And I feel like my younger one is getting neglected at bedtime because I am in the bedroom with the older one. I hope this helps to clarify my dilemma.

I have read a technique of sitting with your child and each night sitting further towards the door until one night you are outside the door. I may have to try it.

As for my little guy, he fell asleep at 10:45 last night and did beautifully at a birthday party this morning. Go figure. But hes a totally different personality than #1!! #1 would have had a very difficult time given that bedtime.

Pink

Can your older boy be bribed?

I have to say though, at that age, I wouldn't have been able to bribe my boy. Now that he's 9, I probably can but it would make him feel conflicted. LOL
I guess some are just more sensitive than others (speaking of kids here) because I think my DD would be able to be bribed or convinced to sleep solo soon.
I did manage to bribe her to sleep (or rather: start off the night) in her own bed and after 5 nights in a row of this, she got a "special" gift)

Bunk beds make me uncomfortable and we got an Ikea one from a friend (the wooden kind with twin on twin which we fiddled with to put a double below, perpendicular to the top bunk. Although the kids love to play with the bunks, they don't like sleeping in them. DS is lonely at the top if he has to fall asleep without being cuddled and the girl doesn't like having this bed on top of her when trying to get to sleep.

I resisted getting this bunk until now, waiting for DD to be older--and 4yrs is stretching my comfort zone. It was DH who insisted and sicne we got this one for free...

But now I insisted we go back to what it was because DD refuses to go to sleep in her bed and that means DH is in the double with DS since DS doesn't want to sleep in the top. (big sigh) I need to get DH back in the marital bed. (for crying out loud)

...how did this become about me?? poke me.


I have heard of doing the slow shift towards the door technique. Hope it works for you.
But then, what about doing an altered cry-it-out technique where you sit with him for about 5 min after the book, say you have to go pee and that you'll be back after 5min and do come back after exactly 5min and kiss him, say see? I came back after 5 min. Sit with him for a couple fo minutes and find some other thing that needs 5min to do. come back and say see... and go on like that. I wonder if that would work... You'd know best, knowing his personality.
If you think it'll only make him feel more anxious, wait. If he's like my DS, he'll be "needy" --for lack of a better word--about this for a while and feel secure if you do give him this attention. I guess bedtime has it's own little version of separation anxiety. My DS was really worried about losing me during the typical separation anxiety years. (what, 9mos to 3yrs? maybe a bit beyond? School helped him)

My philosophy is to go with your gut. If it feels right and it doesn't put you on the brink of a nervous breakdown, then go with the flow. You can't spoil him--I still stand by that, I do.
My 9yo who needs cuddling at bedtime is the most confident kid I know, always ready to jump in when he sees an injustice being done, the first to run to an injured kid or a crying kid and has a string sense of fairness. Can walk up to a friend parent and say, oh hi, you must be Sam's father; nice to meet you (and shake hands) Also seems to be more mature than his peers. but only by a margin.

so yeah, when I feel like I might be coddling him too much, I look at how he is when he's NOT with us and feel good about what we do at home.

BTW, DD was Mrs Meltdown when DH had to put her to sleep if I had the audacity to go out. She'd cry herself to sleep, sobbing even through the first few minutes of sleep. Once crying so much she puked. (roll eyes) She's better now. But then I don't go out often, less than once a month (twitch twitch)

From the sound of how different your DSs are, I guess putting them in the same room wouldn't help, do you think?

big sigh, eh?
hugs
julie





me:43, DH 44
FSH 26
DS: born by c-sec Apr15'03, 9lbs5oz 41wks gest. (after 4 years of ttc, starting in 1998)
DD born by c-sec Oct 13 2007, 8lbs13oz 39wk gest. (after just under 3 years of ttc)
~~DS was conceived naturally the cycle following a cancelled DE IVF, using my good friend's eggs. She was on the verge of hyperstimming.
~~DD's nat conception I attribute to using OPKs like a crazy nut, eating grapefruit daily and using preseed. also 5 cycles of TCM ending 2 cycles before that lucky cycle.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Everything you said about the bunks were my husbands arguments against it.

I dont have the ladder in place, and there is no matress on top yet, but these bunks can be separated into 2 twins if the bunk thing never comes to pass. Since the day I found out I was having 2 boys, I have had the bunk bed fantasy that the boys will love these bunks and have great memories of childhood, sleeping and talking in the bunks. ( When theyre old enough to not party all night in it!!)

Sorry to hear your DH is bunking with DS. Im really praying that your situation continues to improve. That sounds so painful.

Im glad to hear that your cuddler is a confident boy! Mine is a real sweetheart as well.

Pink

is simply returning our DS back to bed - it could be 20 or 30 times each night before he finally got the message that we were not giving up. The first few times, we would say in a firm voice that it was time for bed but after that, we simply just returned him to bed and did not speak to him and we also ignored all his stalling tactics (I want a story, I need a drink etc).

We have really battled with sleep with our DS since he was 18 months and could escape his cotbed and it took several months (but then his young age would have made this a longer battle with us

Our DS needed his sleep as he did get irritable and even now at 3years and 4 months old, he is still easily affected by a late bedtime (he does not get up later, if anything he may get up earlier but he will need a really long nap to catch up next day and he is more tearful/irritable as well the next day)

So we have laid the groundwork as if our DS has a long nap (soemtimes, a long car journey - it is unavoidable) then he will try to delay his bedtime but he gives up pretty quick as he knows that bedtime is bedtime now.

As he has got older, we also point out the benefit such as if you don't get to bed, you will be too tired to do swim lessons or for someone's party (or whatever it is that is on the next day that you know he will enjoy)

hope this is of assistance!

the man who knocks on the window and shouts through the letterbox to check that all the children are in their bed for 8pm - do you know that one?

It works a treat with my eldest and my youngest but the 3 year is the least bothered by him - he wants to meet him rather than run to his bed!

Like when a delivery was made one night, he asked "are you wee willie winkie"!

being from a French family, our boogie man was called bonhomme sept-heures (translates to: 7 o'clock man) My parents would tell us that if we didn't get to bed, he'd come for us.

A friend told me that her boogie man was a man who'd come take the kids away to use them as pillows.

I wonder how many different boogie men there are.


Julie



me:43, DH 44
FSH 26
DS: born by c-sec Apr15'03, 9lbs5oz 41wks gest. (after 4 years of ttc, starting in 1998)
DD born by c-sec Oct 13 2007, 8lbs13oz 39wk gest. (after just under 3 years of ttc)
~~DS was conceived naturally the cycle following a cancelled DE IVF, using my good friend's eggs. She was on the verge of hyperstimming.
~~DD's nat conception I attribute to using OPKs like a crazy nut, eating grapefruit daily and using preseed. also 5 cycles of TCM ending 2 cycles before that lucky cycle.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I have not heard of wee willie, but we were always afraid of the bogey man when I was a kid!

Thanks for the suggestion!

Pink

Hi, the technique described above is also the only thing that works for our 2.5 yr old daughter. I tuck her into bed after stories, songs,. then I wait outside the door, as soon as i hear her up i open the door and put her back in. It works better if you don't talk at all, you just put her in bed and then tuck in really quick. Most times i don't need to do it at all, sometimes its a few times, and on a rare night when she was excited about something it can be 10 times. Good luck : )

When I moved DS out from the crib, I did it step by step:
1. I lowered the side of the crib til it's bottom
2. I removed the side completely
3. I convinced DS that the crib looks now like big boys bed and "we" decided to replace it to a real big bed

Then, when we got the new one, he was all excited from it and brought his best stuffed animals to sleep in it.
To make it safer, I suggested to him that we"ll separate the bed in two:
One part for him and the other for his friends. We put a large pillow between and this way he felt cozier on his part of the bed.
We did not have any issues with this method.
In time, we got rid of all the bed partners

Joy and celebrations,

Adee

He is too long for his crib, but we did leave it in his room with the side rail taken off.

For the big bed, we took the rails that were supposed to be for the top bunk and put them on his lower bed, calling it a fort, thinking it would make him feel more secure.

I am going to try more pillows around him tonight and see if that helps. Last night he fell asleep on his carpet!!

Pink

but falling asleep on his carpet sounds so sweet:)
GL soon

Joy and celebrations,

Adee

I would just be so happy that he isn't destroying the room and is actually staying in his room. I think he is doing pretty well there. He is going to get tired enough and go to sleep and will figure it out on his own. If you try to push it, it may cause control issues and there are just some things you can't control.

You are right. I cant control his sleep. He fell asleep after 3 hours in his room tonight.

He has lots of books and a few toys and a CD player in his room, so I guess thats enough to keep him from being destructive!!

Thanks, Gail...

Pink

"I feel a little guilty that I ruined my formerly good sleeper"

You didn't. You really didn't. And I've never met a child much older than your ds who didn't put themselves to sleep. He will soon. Does he have a sleep buddy? That worked for our ds #1. We got him a dog (Barkley - who we just found out, according to ds, is female and not male) and told him that barkley is his sleep buddy so he doesn't need us anymore. Worked like a charm.

I agree with the others. If he's in a good mood then let him work through it in his own time. Maybe get him a sleep buddy too?

Z.

and so would I, but DH will not budge on the subject. Our cat died last year (well, it was my cat from pre-marriage days, my DH never really cared for him) and it is lonely around here without furry company.

I have in mind a golden retriever. But I dream because DH feels so strongly against it. It may turn into one of those cases of its easier to ask forgiveness than permission if he doesnt change his views. I think kids benefit from having a dog around the house.

Thank for the input, Z. Its good to see you around here!

Pink

Pink, since you still have the crib in his room, could you give him a choice about which bed to sleep in each night? Maybe that will help him feel more in control of things, and willing to stay put?

Potty training is another control/power issue, so I agree that doing both at the same time is a double whammy for your little guy, and may be making him a bit hesitant about the big boy bed at this time. That's why I'd let him call the shots and help him feel that it makes no difference to you which bed he sleeps in, as long as he's comfortable with his choice, and gets to sleep when it's time to sleep.

On the other hand, you'd want to make the new bed as inviting as possible. Let him choose a favorite stuffed animal to sleep with? (Sorry, Barkley, but a stuffed dog might work just as well!) Get fun bedding for the new bed? Put those mesh bed rails on the bed to help him feel cozier for now? Just trying to remember what my DD did with her two kids (about the same ages as yours)....

It's hard, but he (and you) will get there.

wcl

I did remind him again tonight that he was welcome to sleep in either bed (but he fell asleep on the floor again, and I picked him up and put him in bed). He has all his favorite stuffed animals as always.

I do believe this is just alot for him at once. But he looked so squished in his crib!! I may have made a mistake, but at least the crib is still there if he feels he needs to sleep in it.

Thanks for the encouragement!!!

Pink

DS (26 months) is still in a crib and will be for the foreseeable future. I dread the transition - sleep has been a challenge with him. Sorry to hear you guys are struggling.