I was warned by Capitalists that it would be impossible to make you agree with any form of Capitalism at all. I guess they were right. You're not unintelligent for it. You stick up for what you believe in. That's fine too. I do that too. A very many people out their don't agree with what you are advocating.

I'm not trying to convert you, as I recognize that as an impossible endeavor. The philosophy that I follow holds that I have not right to affect another person's choice in making a decision.

I was merely attempting to point out that Capitalism is not what you've been branding it as. Just as I have come to learn that Communism and Socialism aren't what I initialy imagined them as.

It's when you keep pointing at the CURRENT American system and all of it's faults (yes, it has many), and label it as Capitalism--that's when you get me steamed. That is what I was trying to get you to understand initially. That you're views of what Capitalism is and how it is wrong- if you are basing it upon the current system.

I was going to leave it at that. But you continued to throw current situations at me, then you continue to tell me that communism is the only way to go. Just as I did with Capitalism. That is what caused me to lash out and attempt to identify the faults of Communism. Wheather you believe they are faults or not, is up to you. Wheather I believe their are faults in Communism are not up to you, however. In my opinion, which may be flawed depending a great deal on how you percieve it, is that you cannot advocate a social structure of any kind. You have to let it speak for itself. Something, I will admit neither parties (myself included have done). Neither a true form of Capitalism, nor Communism have ever existed as they were intended to exist.

I do apologize for any offenses that I've comitted in here. I do admit that I've lashed out with quite a bit of disdain that you really don't deserve. I admit that instead of simply asking informative questions, that I did just that--and supplied my own biased answers without giving you a chance to answer. For that, I admit I was wrong as well.

I will not, however, apologize for being a capitalist. I don't expect you to apologize for being Communists either. I find it rather honorable to stick up for what you believe against all odds. I don't agree with pressuring people to agree with someone (to absusing computers and a team of hackers to collapse an economy).

Once again, I apologize. I wish you all the best in any endeavors that you attempt to acheive.

Bravo


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Fairy Tales are important, not because they teach us dragons are real, but because they teach us dragons can be defeated.

http://www.freewebs.com/fascirevolutionary/

See, NOT interested in acutally understanding. If Lucent was interested in understanding he would have immediately eliminated 'Communism' from his understanding after being rebuffed and attacked. He simply wanted to joust, to get down and dirty to justify his 'principles' to himself by being as big a toughguy as he could be around the 'childish commies'. If Lucent is truly sorry for his actions I am sure he would have stuck around to ask questions about 'Commuism'in a civial tone.

LS, we do believe that capitalisim is ok and even use capitalisim in a socialist democracy, we just believe it needs to be controlled and regulated. You capitalists hate that idea so much you promote mis-truths and derogatory lies/propaganda against us, you capitalists are the ones that are wrong about not seeing the evils of un-regulated capitalisim, your lies about us just shows impartial people how desperate you are to slander our beliefs the way you constantly do. You said that we don't except any form of capitalisim, that is just another lie that your promoting, I just told you we do.

"We even use capitalisim in a socialist democracy, we just believe it needs to be controlled and regulated."

Oh? That's cool, which principles of Capitalism does a socialist democracy employ?

"your lies about us just shows impartial people how desperate you are to slander our beliefs the way you constantly do."

Which lies? Slander? I don't need to do that. Every dictator in history has already done so.

"I'm not trying to convert you, as I recognize that as an impossible endeavor. The philosophy that I follow holds that I have not right to affect another person's choice in making a decision."


You would stand idly by, and LET someone walk into an open manhole and fall into the sewer below?

"You would stand idly by, and LET someone walk into an open manhole and fall into the sewer below?"

No, of course not, would you?

No, I wouldn't. However is the person a stranger, or not. Has he wronged me in the past? If he has wronged me in the past, then I am getting justice. If I can rescue him, with no harm to myself, then I will do so?

Are you telling me that it is moral to save a drowning child, even though you cannot swim?

Sorry, don't know what those arguments have to do with left-wing politics, but it sure does sound like you take you Randian philosophy without a pinch of salt.

Yes, I am a student of Objectivism. What of it. It's a hell of a lot better than Marxism. You need only to read any little bit of her literature to uncover and argument against every little detail that marx ever stood for.

Well then, I suggest you do a little bit of reading and then come back and kick our asses. Until then your disrespectful tone will be met with a tone 10fold more disrespectful. Unless, of course, you apologize.

Lucent,

First off in case you have missed it in my previous posts we had true capitialism here in the US during the 1800s and into the first part of the 1900s. I would hardly say that what became of it could qualify as 'human rights' since there was no labor laws and people were getting murdered and killed in the name of big business. Read some history or some books like the "Grapes of Wrath" or something. The reason we have these 'Socialist' laws here is because capitalists proved in this time that they could not behave and treat people as humans. All they wanted were slaves that they mistreated which lead to the formation of workers unions. I guess they stopped teaching this period of time in US History classes?

Now in this world of a global economy and free trade they are slowly returning to these days of worker mistreatment in the out sourcing of job out of the US. The businesses and politicians alike denounce publicly the treatment of people in China, but yet at the same time are sending factories there for the cheat slave labor that they critize. I mean what the heel you can make more money paying a Chinese person 25 cents an hour only than you can an American worker with wage laws and labor rights, things they don't have in China for example Lucent. Who cares about the American worker who can't get a job now, can't afford to live, and starves so long as it isn't the capitalist. I guess though he is just lazy right Lucent? True capitalism is a failed system of mistreatment, greed, exploitation, and a crime against human rights.

I want to comment on something else Lucent since you brought it up a while back.

"No, I wouldn't. However is the person a stranger, or not. Has he wronged me in the past? If he has wronged me in the past, then I am getting justice. If I can rescue him, with no harm to myself, then I will do so?

Are you telling me that it is moral to save a drowning child, even though you cannot swim?"

This single attitude makes me doubt seriously that you are or have ever served in the US Military Lucent. This is actually an attitude that is not part of the mind of anyone who has or did serve. I think the attitude of anyone who served in the military can be best summed up in the line Eric Bana, who played a dual role as Delta operative Hooten and Macejunas; read the book, used at the end of the movie "Black Hawk Down" where he states:

"When I go home people will ask me why I do it. What are you some kind of war junkie, and I won't say a thing. I won't say a God damn thing. They won't understand it isn't about me, it is about the guy next to me that all."

This attitude is inherent to all military and the sense of unity and comradery. The desire to never fail or let down your buddies and the willingness to die if need be to protect them. I don't like the war much and never wanted to serve, until one of my friends went who I have been through a lot with here and I have known for a long time. I hate the war but I want to be there to see that someone he trusts has his back if he needs it, and if I would have to die to do it I have no problem with that. So with this attitued I doubt you are even in the armed forces Lucent. You're to me just another selfish a$$hole.

Apparently Communists really do not have self-respect. They respond to little children who are in no way interested in exploring philosophy. Talking to the dogs like human beings gets us nowhere. They first have to be taught civility or the whole project is pointless, because we are always put on the defensive. Better to concentrate resources (time) on those who are actually open to new arguments.

But that is just me. If you choose to argue with Walls then that is your choice, and I will hence no longer agitate in this thread.

Capitalism has never existed.

Lucent,

First off in case you have missed it in my previous posts we had true capitialism here in the US during the 1800s and into the first part of the 1900s. I would hardly say that what became of it could qualify as 'human rights' since there was no labor laws and people were getting murdered and killed in the name of big business. Read some history or some books like the "Grapes of Wrath" or something. The reason we have these 'Socialist' laws here is because capitalists proved in this time that they could not behave and treat people as humans. All they wanted were slaves that they mistreated which lead to the formation of workers unions. I guess they stopped teaching this period of time in US History classes?


First off, what you are referring to is Libertarianism. Capitalism enforces labor laws. Human rights? Why don't you tell me what human rights? How about you stop pointing at a mob for once, and point at the individual and tell me what he will be afforded once you sieze his company, his products, and distribute them to the public. You're telling me that that is providing him with human rights? Slaves do not get paid. Before you call the common working man a slave, I suggest you re-evaluate your concept of slave. Most workers in a lot of the big industries are afforded more than enough to provide for themselves. You make it seem like people are being yanked off the street and forced to serve any Capitalists' whims. Perhaps your forgetting to notice that the workers actually apply for their jobs. Are you referring to the industrial revolution? What history book twisted the outcome and happenings of this period for you? Not to mention, that "public schools" are teaching marxist principles anyway. Unlike Montesourri Schools, where they allow young minds to express their ideas, instead of being conditioned and infected with the guilt that you advocate to make them want to help a perfect stranger some thousands of miles away.

"Now in this world of a global economy and free trade they are slowly returning to these days of worker mistreatment in the out sourcing of job out of the US."

Mistreatment? Someone get's mistreated at work, and that's all you see, huh? Perhaps they stole something from work. Perhaps they hit a fellow employee. Perhaps they're distributing the products of their capitalist boss to the needs of the public.

"The businesses and politicians alike denounce publicly the treatment of people in China, but yet at the same time are sending factories there for the cheat slave labor that they critize.

I mean what the heel you can make more money paying a Chinese person 25 cents an hour only than you can an American worker with wage laws and labor rights, things they don't have in China for example Lucent. Who cares about the American worker who can't get a job now, can't afford to live, and starves so long as it isn't the capitalist. I guess though he is just lazy right Lucent? True capitalism is a failed system of mistreatment, greed, exploitation, and a crime against human rights."

How so? You tell me it has, and you never illustrate how. Quite blaming the very principles you advocate.

"No, I wouldn't. However is the person a stranger, or not. Has he wronged me in the past? If he has wronged me in the past, then I am getting justice. If I can rescue him, with no harm to myself, then I will do so?

Are you telling me that it is moral to save a drowning child, even though you cannot swim?"

"This single attitude makes me doubt seriously that you are or have ever served in the US Military Lucent. This is actually an attitude that is not part of the mind of anyone who has or did serve. I think the attitude of anyone who served in the military can be best summed up in the line Eric Bana, who played a dual role as Delta operative Hooten and Macejunas; read the book, used at the end of the movie "Black Hawk Down" where he states:"

I am in the military, they do teach teamwork and all that bullcrap. I usually ignore it. I never volunteer,(since I recognize no one's right to one second of my life) and I still get fire-wall 5's on my EPR's (Enlisted Performance Reports). Do you just assume everything and hope you look intelligent? Didn't you read my most? You never even argued anything in it.

You're going to use a character in a book to get your point across? Especially when characters are created based upon the authors' principles?

"This attitude is inherent to all military and the sense of unity and comradery. The desire to never fail or let down your buddies and the willingness to die if need be to protect them. I don't like the war much and never wanted to serve, until one of my friends went who I have been through a lot with here and I have known for a long time. I hate the war but I want to be there to see that someone he trusts has his back if he needs it, and if I would have to die to do it I have no problem with that. So with this attitued I doubt you are even in the armed forces Lucent. You're to me just another selfish a$$hole."

Perhaps you have heard some of the interviews that have been taken from some of the men on the field. How they hate it, how they don't want to die for their country. You're not only blind to reality, but deaf to it as well.

Are you going to argue any other of my points, or contiue to make yourself look like a bumbling idiot who is incapable of helping himself, let alone his fellow man.

This thread is supposed to be an apology from Lucent for insulting everyone, but as soon as he wrote it he went back to calling people stupid again. Whatever, this adds nothing to his credibility.

You noticed that too! WOW. It has got to be the worst apology I have ever seen.