I was requested by ESBM2002 to argue his flawed post. Here it is:
Here is me attacking your first long argument that I said was a waste of my time:
"In 1999, nearly one-fifth (17%) of children in the US lived in poverty, including one third of African American and Hispanic children (Dalaker and Proctor, 2000)
· Sixteen percent of the US population has no health insurance; the average cost of one day’s stay in a hospital is 1067 USD (US Dollar)- the equivalent of two week’s pay for most workers (US Bureau of the Census 2000)
· In Silicon Valley where many became wealthy because of stock options on “dot com” firms, other working people have to living in garages where they pay half or three quarters of their monthly pay for rent. Some of the homeless in the area sleep by riding the all-night bus on its two hour loop through neighborhoods where three bedroom homes on quarter-acre lots (Modest by many standards) sell for over 1 million dollars (Greenhouse, 2000a; Nieves, 2000)
· Among women heading their own households, 28% live below the poverty line (Dalaker and Proctor, 2000)
· One percent of the US population controls 38 percent of all wealth; most households experience unprecedented rising debt during the 1990s (Mishel, Bernstein, and Schmitt, 2001"
I can easily argue all of these facts (which I am sure that they are) not by saying that they are not facts, but they are facts that support a totally different social structure than that of Capitalism. The dates in your facts make that a fact, since Capitalism has existed only in theory and never in practice. The industrial revolution was the closest thing to Capitalism that has ever been experienced.
MYTH- If poor people would only get jobs; they could get out of poverty.
REALITY- Most able-bodied poor people do work, out of all poor people 43% work; illness and disability prevents 20% of poor people from working. So, the opinion that poor people do not work is obviously false.
How many is most? Do you have an exact number? Then you say that only 43% of all poor people work. Illness and disability prevents 20% of poor people from working. What happens to the other 27%. Why aren't they working. How much of the 43% are able-bodied? Great facts. What is preventing these poor people from obtaining another proffession? Capitalism would never prevent anyone who has the ability to work, work. You may say that this is not true. All I can say is to study Laissez Fare for confirmation. You most likely won't believe a word I am saying. Let's continue this waste of time.
"Most people blame the poor for their own condition; Sociologists, however, see poverty as rooted in the structure of society, less in the morals and behaviors of individuals. Blaming the poor for being poor appeals to the MYTH that success requires only individual motivation and ability. Many in the US adhere to this view and hence have a harsh and very misguided opinion of the poor"
Perhaps these people aren't motivated in the first place. All challenges motivate me. I've had achieved numerous successes as a result. Take my Graphic Design business that I run on the side. I have the ability and the motivation. I have achieved success in it by no other way. I made money off of my products, not by catering to the need of a customer, but by putting them on display. They bought my work of free will. It's how I sell all of my stuff. Harsh and misguided, a myth? Please. I just proved you wrong. Unless you don't believe me. Even then, you could not deny that such a an example is impossible.
"The federal government has established an official definition of poverty that is used to determine eligibility for assistance and to measure the extent of poverty in the US. The poverty line is the amount of money needed to support the basic needs of a household, as determined by the government; below this line, one is considered officially poor. In 1999, the official poverty line for a family of four was $17,184. Although a cutoff point is necessary to administer anti-poverty programs, this definition of poverty can be misleading. A person or family earning $1 above the cutoff point would not be officially categorized as poor. According to the government there are now more than 32.3 million poor people in the US"
First of all, the government wouldn't establish a definition of poverty in a Capitalist system. As far as the results of the current mixed economy you have listed-who cares, that's not capitalism. Perhaps you failed to mention what classifies a poor households possesions. How most poor homes fare with possessions. Perhaps you fail to mention that that could be a reason that they are poor. Here's an article for you to read:
http://www.heritage.org/Research/Welfare/bg1713.cfm
Here are just a few parts of the article dealing with exact percentage of your "poor" people. This is a little more current (2005)
Forty-six percent of all poor households actually own their own homes. The average home owned by persons classified as poor by the Census Bureau is a three-bedroom house with one-and-a-half baths, a garage, and a porch or patio.
Seventy-six percent of poor households have air conditioning. By contrast, 30 years ago, only 36 percent of the entire U.S. population enjoyed air conditioning.
Only 6 percent of poor households are overcrowded. More than two-thirds have more than two rooms per person.
The average poor American has more living space than the average individual living in Paris, London, Vienna, Athens, and other cities throughout Europe. (These comparisons are to the average citizens in foreign countries, not to those classified as poor.)
Nearly three-quarters of poor households own a car; 30 percent own two or more cars.
Ninety-seven percent of poor households have a color television; over half own two or more color televisions.
Seventy-eight percent have a VCR or DVD player; 62 percent have cable or satellite TV reception.
Seventy-three percent own microwave ovens, more than half have a stereo, and a third have an automatic dishwasher
Damn, I must be living in the damn stone age or utter poverty. Man I really feel poor now. Any more "facts" you care to sling my way? Let's continue.
"The gap between the rich and the poor is increasing, whereas much of the middle class finds its class standing slipping. Since the early 1970's, median income has actually declined; the top one-fifth of the population has received a larger share of the total income (47% of all income), whereas the bottom fifth has received less (4.2%)---U.S. Bureau of Census, 2000"
On the contrary, the same source in an article that I've provided indicate that poverty is declining. Example from the article: The above statement about the article states that a percentage of the poor enjoy more airconditiong that the entire countries population 30 years ago.
I also leave you with this quoted from the Bureau as well:
"The average "poor" person, as defined by the government, has a living standard far higher than the public imagines"
Perhaps you're being fooled about how poor people actually are because of the publics image.
More ever, linking the current poverty situation, which I must admit is much better than my own to Capitalism which does not exist presently, further proves you misinformed. Where exactly are you getting your info on Capitalism? Other Communists? Oh, that's a great source. Meahwhile, I actually study some Communist literature. I don't just listen to my fellow Capitalists for info. Let's continue.
"These Shadow are basic sociological facts that have been researched and discovered by leading sociologists with in the US."
Yes, in 1999. This is the year 2005. At least use current info to get your point across.
I guess though in your mind they have an IQ of 60 though? Really though Shadow were have you been in your life? I would guess you lived with mommy and daddy till you finished high school and joined the military,
Actually, I was emancipated at the age of 14, maintained my 3.8 GPA average in Highschool while holding a job and living in my own apartment. Wow, exploiting the minds of others sure does sound more like me working hard myself now, doesn't it? Careful now, you've made a mistake. Assumptions are not a display of intelligence. You actually have to right about something in order to be smart.
Not to mention I find it very hard to believe that in five years you have made SSG since I was fast tracked and was going to get my SGT at me three year mark, and my bother was in six years before he saw his E-5, and another buddy of mine in the reserves, one of the fast promoting sections of the army, has been in eight years and is still sitting on E-4 in Baghdad, so forgive me if I doubt your “current” rank you claim."
I've already explained this. I'm Air Force, and I made it I was selected for Staff in 3 years. I sewed it on 9 months later.
"Actually forgive me if I doubt you are even in the army since you would as well need some type of college education to even be fast tracked to E-6 as fast as you were."
Again, there is nothing to forgive. You're subsituting assumptions for knowledge again. If anything, you should be forgiving or forsaking yourself. I'll let you decide.
"What were you in Iraq and got a few battlefield promotions due to high attrition?"
No, but I served in Iraq for 6 months and all I got was a pat on the back.
"Shadow you may read a lot of books and by this you think you are smart but you have from what I can see no real intelligence on how things are in the real world since you have never been in the real world."
What are you basing this on? I'm guessing that you mean that knowledge cannot come from books and only from experience? Are you saying that ALL of the Communist literature that you advocate is full of ****? Have you ever lived in a Communist nation? You'll probably say no, because none has existed, so you haven't seen the world of Communism either. So that means you're more full of **** about Communism than I am. Or not. Perhaps I can recognize intelligence when I see it. You're no doubt intelligent. I'll let you decide how I'm basing that on.
"All your life you have lived in a protective little posh bubble of yourself living off the hard work of other people, or did you miss that your army checks are paid by the US tax payer?"
No I've never missed a check that was payed by the tax payer, and perhaps your forgetting that I maybe earn what they pay me? You're also misinformed if you assume that this would happen in a Capitalist society since taxes do not exist in one. We would be payed by other means. But I tell you. If I had a choice to pay for the protection of our nation and our human rights. I think I would still pay like the average tax payer is paying me. You can continue to twist your little views of reality any way you want. You could look at it your way or mine. Does it matter? Is it going to change your or my way of thinking? Probably not.
"There is no difference to me between you living off other people, my getting financial aid for school, and some working class stiff that gets assistance to live. Why don’t you get out of the army and go work a real world job and have to pay all your bills yourself and see how you like it Shadow, since right now you are, if you want to admit it or not, living off the work of others who are paying your electric, your medical care, your food and shelter, ect"
Actually, I have another job on the side along with me attending college which is no longer free. Once again. I get payed what I earn. If you would like to ask who is to determine how much I am to earn, or who has a right to, I ask you this? Who would in a communist nation? The people? The voice of the people IS NOT one voice. It's a bunch of INDIVIDUALS with different individual thoughts and individual opions. Collectivism is a contradiction in itself.
Again, your blaming and tying in taxation in with Capitalism, which is in itself a contradiction.
"Guess they don’t teach the buddy system anymore in the army with the invention of the army values card."
I don't know about the Army, but they do in the Airforce. If the Air Force actually believes in that horse pucky and that is what makes a great airman. Then I guess this means I'm not a great airman.
"You in my opinion, based on my time as a leader in the army; how I was trained and FM 22-100 (Military Leadership) you might try reading this as well it helps with your story about being an E-6, are a piss poor leader in a position he shouldn’t even hold and I would have demoted you to E-1 based on your lack of concern for your troops."
What is a lack of concern? To what degree is a lack of concern? Is it wrong to care for myself more than anyone else? I never said I didn't give a damn or care about anyone else. On the contrary, I do. I just don't care about anyone else any MORE than myself. If you would have demoted me based upon my "lack of concern for your troops" I would have dealt with it with the same indifference that I deal with eveyrthing else. What exactly does this have to do with the flaws of Capitalism which you have failed to point out?
Let's carry on:
"The fact though is that I think you will drown in your own bull if you even leave the military. No college education, well there is at most a 10-dollar an hour job for you if you are lucky Shadow. Want to go to school well don’t move home with mommy and daddy why not be like most of the nation and work a crap job full time, pay your rent and bills while buying food, repairing your car and getting gas, all while going to school Shadow. Get a clue and stop feeding me your unintelligent crap you found in your resent copy of Rush Limbaugh. Why I waste my time on idiots I don’t know but you need to really say, “pop” and pull your head out of your rear. Maybe though you intend to be a high school educated truck driver with no time to really spend with your family Shadow"
Actually I researched the truck driver thing. And the railroad thing. The salaries ($30,000 and $50,000 respectively) are legit. So I see, you don't want to pay bills, you don't want to pay for school, you don't want to pay your rent. I do. It's something that I admire. Struggling against all odds and coming out on top. Don't say that people don't because it would be a lie. I witness people doing it every day. Do you hate yourself or something. Have you no self-interest whatsoever? In communism, how would these things be provided for you?
"Less be serious fast food isn’t a livable wage Shadow not at 6 USD per hour. In this as well please do explain that if working hard in Capitalism and if it has so much opportunity please Shadow explain why class stratification and the social gap are growing here in the US. Though you might have to open a sociology book to figure this one out Shadow"
Well, I'm sure it's not since the majority of the poor own more cars, color TV's, and dishwashers than I do. On those standards they couldn't. I know I easily could. I was doing it while I was emancipated. I barely scraped by, but at least I wasn't living off the streets, begging for peoples property when I could easily earn my own. Begging for money, is not earning it, despite popular belief in this forum.
"Perhaps you should look at a book in economics. We are not a capitalist society. The current so-called class stratification and the social gap are products of the current mixed economy, and proportionally caused the government regulation."
“Capitalism is founded on moral principles”
"Please don’t make me laugh Shadow that is just too funny."
Perhaps you could explain why that is so funny, instead of just skirting the issue like that. Perhaps you would like to recite the princliples of Capitalism and THEN make that claim.
"
This statement Shadow is totally uneducated since capitalism by its very nature creates a system of haves and has not and class stratification."
This, is true. You can earn it, or you can beg for it, which would allow you nothing in Capitalism.
"People of lower classes get fewer benefits in the areas of legal help when they are wronged and in the area of medical care"
Perhaps if they paid for the quality health care and legal help that the majority of Americans would pay for it in a Capitalist system, they wouldn't have that proble. Especially since the medical system would be privatized.
"If they do get the medical care that they need Shadow they end up in debt for a while and have bill collector harassing them and threaten them with litigation"
You just said that the poor couldn't afford it. Then you say that they can in the next sentence? Okay. Well, why shouldn't a bill collector come to collect what the person earns?
"As well as it forces people to make a choice between eating and paying bills, and as I said for senior citizens the choose of eating or getting the medications that they need, but no your right capitalism prevents one person from hurting another Shadow, it only for one causes people to go hungry or be malnutritioned"
How does it force them to chose? They made the choice. In capitalism they would not have a choice. They would have to do both. Capitalism doesn't cause anything. It only allows for possibilities. I'm not saying that people cannot become poor under Capitalism. People can, but it is their choice in the Laissez Faire form.
"Not to mention if it follows human right Shadow why is it that all these businesses are out sourcing to countries like China, who has a known long history of human rights violations through cheap slave labor, to hire workers there to get in on the cheap labor Shadow? Though capitalism promotes human rights Shadow."
"Do you know what human rights are? You know why they are outsourcing to them? Because China produces their goods very cheaply. Thats why we sell them- so we can cater to all of them- even to the poor. You can google it and look it up. It's on the first ten pages. There is no doubt that China won't use their money for their evil ends. That's a chance a take, and will most likely be able to overthrow should they do that to begin with.
"Remind me that if I see you bleeding to death on the street to not only walk by and not do anything but to as well wave the medical supplies to help you in your face Shadow since this is what capitalism does. Capitalism does rob for people Shadow."
No, it doesn't do that. In a free society, Medical Care is privatized. Meaning that if you utilize the free market, in which everyone is free to do, you will make enough money for affordable health care. You fail to realize that in a totally free market (to include being free of taxes) that everyone will be forced to set a fair price for their wares. How else will they get rich if no one can afford. Hell, as I proved earlier, most of you poor people can afford more than myself apperently. Do you think Bill Gates got rich because he sold his computers for an outrageous amount of money? Hmm not likely, since the majority of the American population uses his products. So they must be easily and readily affordable. Then you accuse him of robbing the nation. Then you claim that he doesn't care for his workers and exploits them as slaves. Slaves do not get paid anything. So before you use the words "exploitation" and "Slavery" I suggest you revise your references.
And how can something rob for someone? Maybe that's why I couldn't grasp your little analogy earlier-because you can't even structure your sentences correctly.
"It robs from them the true fruits of their labor and lessens the rewards of their efforts though the exploitation of their labors for the capitalist running the company and they are not most times paid a wage that could be considered livable."
Liveable by whose standards? To be poor you have to be alive, so I suggest you revise this reference as well. over $30 miliion poor people out there and not one of them is dead. They must be living off of something, or should I say someone.
"You as well get the situation at one job I had where they cut employee hours under the terms that they didn’t have the money to pay them but the CEO had the money to give himself a 3 million USD raise. This is capitalism Shadow exploitation of the masses for the greed of one man and the whole idea goes against the Taoist idea. That being the Heaven is not for one man to take, but for one man to give to the world."
Again. Assumption as a substitute of knowledge. You take a financial example or exerience that went wrong for you and you label it is as a fault of Capitalism. Something that I'm sure you are that you're very unfamiliar with based upon extensive evidence.
"Thank you Shadow for proving, if you know it or not, one of Marx’s principles that capitalists sit there getting rich and living off the exploitation of their laborers that if the company fails they have nothing to worry about, as there “loyal” employees whose work and labor made them their money well suffer and become part of the poor of society"
Which Capitalists are you referring to? I am getting rather tired of pointing out that we are not a Capitalist society. Although I've never seen nor heard of a big Corporate CEO sitting on his fat butt all day. Most of them work 12 to 14 hour shifts, simply because Capitalists find something that they enjoy doing, find a way to make money off of it, and share it with the people who work for him by paying for their help in HIS endeavor.
Here is what somes up Capitalism in comparison to Socialism:
Capitalism-allowing everyone a chance to bake bigger pies.
Socialism- allowing other people to eat your pie and force you to make more
You might try finding religion it might make you human Shadow and actually know what “Human Rights” are before you throw out your claims.
Why attempt to find something that people have gotten lost doing for years. Faith is the rejection of reality. Anyone putting faith into something that which he cannot percieve is extremely dangerous to say the least.
Again, I would like you to define human rights for me. I'm assuming that they are going to be collectivist nature. IE. A cure for cancer that they didn't concieve without the consent of the individual that concieved it.
"I doubt though you know about this either or you would know the concept in Tai Kung’s “Six Secret Teachings”, from the “Seven Military Classics” that states that the people are not to be profited from but to see that they profit from their efforts and to make yourself one with them and to share in their joy and suffering in order to have a successful state"
No, I'm not familiar with such rubbish that substitutes assumptions instead of logic. Share in their joy and suffering?!!! UGGG There!! I knew someone would say it!! You truly are sick. Why should I share another's suffering. What right do I have to their joy? Why should anyone have to feel my suffering? And why right do they have to my joy? And then you have the nerve to talk to me about HUMAN RIGHTS??!! Make yourself one with THEM? With who? Your fellow man? Perhaps you've missed the last couple of decades when scientists and philosophers have discovered that man is an individual of individual conscious. It cannot be shared. It is IMPOSSIBLE to be shared. Truly disgusting.
You know why I say that? Here is Capitalisms credo:
"I swear on my life that I will never live for another human being, nor ask another to live for mine."
"Leadership is the ability to get people to do something that they would not normally do by providing purpose, direction, and motivation. (FM 22-100 Military Leadership)"
"A leader to be successful at your work and to accomplish your mission or job you must motivate your people to want to support you and to work with you. One of the best officers I knew in the army as Capt Ashford who I had the honor of serving with. He was a true leader in every sense of the word and a man who though he could have relaxed with the other officers lead from the front. He inspired he people through his own example of being what he wanted them to be, also a leadership principal “Set the example” (FM 22-100 Military Leadership), and was a father figure to them. When it was time to work he was there with us doing the hardest work himself and he never left the work area till his last man left the work area at the completion of the job. In this many of the other enlisted and I had the highest respect for the man and he, through his actions and not his words, inspired us to want to work for him and not to let him down. He as well wasn’t the type to blow off his enlisted, even the Privates, and took the time to laugh and joke and get to know the pains and joys of the people under his command. He knew what to hand out punishment and when to hand out rewards for performance and gave both out equally to inspire his people. He never saw to his own needs until he knew that the needs of his people were filled and in this he gain the trust and the loyalty of those who served with him, and they worked"
Actually leadership has nothing to do with motivation. I has everything to do with influencing people. I've had 120 days of leadership training by the same corrupt military policies that I follow. You think that it has credibility for me. You think that I want to compromise who I am to please someone else. To breach my integrity and everything to stand for. I take care of my troops, but I don't pamper them or cater to their every need. They have to earn it. Just like I have to earn theirs. But in your example, how does that tie into all of this? Communism, and Capitalism? I'm actually a great leader. I've had nothing but the best performance reports for my passed 5 years. Never broken a law, never been late, never have been in trouble. No article 15's. And I'm a Capitalist. You think I just apply my principles socially and economically? No, I apply them with every choice or action I take. I must be doing something right. My own troops stick up for me and praise me. I will stick up for mine if they earn the right for me to do so.
"Your mind set it that of a petty dictator that leads through fear and punishment as you profit and reap the rewards of those under you for your own gain."
Actually, for my business of graphic design there is a little process that I go through. It's called an interview. I tell my future employees of what they can expect. And guess what??--They can even ask questions about the job!! What fear and what punishment? First you talk about leadership and how noble it is to punish people when it's required, and then you condemn it here outright? Reap the rewards of those under me? What rewards? How can they be rewarded something that they have not earned. I conceived the product. It's my idea that they are manufacturing. That's what they are getting paid for. How well they product sells determines how much they get paid. How difficult is that for you to concieve? My own gain? Well, it is my idea isnt' it? Don't you think I'm aloud to profit the most since it's my business, my idea, the people I hired work for me becasue I'm the one who hired them. It's not like they found their way into my company and started working there.
"would venture to say that though people may work for you that there productivity and their loyalty and trust in you is at a low level"
Again, assumptions reign in your cognitive functions, don't they? I have never seen productivity low in my Graphic Design business. I just babysit for one of my employees the other day. Why? Because it didn't subtract from my well-being. If it doesn't hurt me, then I'll give.
"You don’t lead by example and you fail to inspire your people to do much of anything and behind your back they secretly despise you, and if the situation presents itself, if it hasn’t already they will group together and plot against you to bring about your down fall as you demand everything and give nothing."
Once again, assumptions. Ah the great Communist ideal. That man will revolt. Any more bull crap you care to toss my way?
"As well it isn’t hard at all to those who are wise and intelligent to share in another’s joy and in their suffering."
If I hear this one more time, I'll be sick. And you say Capitalists spew propaganda. "Love thy fellow man" yada yada yada. I do, in the sense that I respect their nobility to live for themselves. To live on their own two feet. Their ability to achieve their goals. How in Communism is this possible if their are no classes. If everyone is the same, how can anyone achieve? How can they desire something, if everyone is the same. There is no motivation. Oh. I get to go to work and earn my food, home, health, and everything I need to live. (no money under marx's system). That's great. So he can't get more. Oh good more food. But since free trade is restricted (right?) it will go to waste.
"Capt Ashford as I stated did just that and did it well and he looked after those who he was responsible for. He was a leader and not a petty dictator that you seem to be. Gen. Hal Moore had the same attitude of leading by his own example as well to inspire his men in combat and to build from his example the future leaders."
I've also done well for myself. I'm sorry, I will never emulate another man. I'm an individual. What's the matter you cannot think for yourself without your collectivist friends?
"Then after they get the crumbs of a paycheck they have six other capitalists with their hands out looking for what little they have earned from their work. In the end what you get are people that have to make a choice between paying a bill or eating, or senior citizens having to choose between eating, and getting the drugs that they need. Wow…so much opportunity Shadow."
Perhaps if you studied Capitalism you stop making stupid claims and assumptions. It rewards people with ability. Meaning. The better they are at something, the better the position and the better the pay. Perhaps these people who are getting bread crumbs for a paycheck are working the wrong job, sitting on their ass at work, or moping around feeling the suffering of his fellow man. Hell yes. I'd fire them. If they can't function at work, then what have they done to earn their pay. Why should time dictate how much they get paid. Are you telling me that Ralph, who has 4 kids is 46 years old and who has been with my company for 10 years deserves more than Mark who has been with us for years and has had netted four sales than any other associate? Are you nuts? Talk about a detriment to economy. (This is an example)
"Shadow who do you think it is that controls the government? Seriously you can’t be this stupid."
So you're telling me that the capitalists, who absolutely are for abortion, same-sex marriage, and against taxes are running the government? Seriously YOU can't be this stupid.
I can't go on. You've done nothing to sway your point at all. I'll be awaiting your bull-crap loaded propaganda.