I've been doing some research on which city in Brazil is like Rio de Janeiro (beaches, friendly people, pretty girls, good restaurants, etc), but minus the ex-pats, tourists, drug wars, and the general mess you find in Rio these days.

For example, Porto Seguro is absolutely beautiful, but a bit small and filled with Brazilian tourists.

ES is also quite nice, but has the highest murder rate in Brazil.

Perhaps living in Sao Paulo and having a beach house on the coast is the best option?

Have you been to Salvador? Beautiful beaches, great weather, very inexpensive but with the amenities of a big city. The culture and food remind me of New Orleans but it also has the small beach town feel of a place like Ft. Lauderdale. Well...thats my opinion.

No, actually I've never been to Salvador. I have heard great things about it, and the people who come back from Salvador seem utterly enchanted by the place (particularly the American women for some reason).

In any case, how does Salvador compare to say...Fortaleza and Recife, both cities that I have visited. I found Recife to be nice, but nothing special. In fact, it seemed a little dead compared to Rio de Janeiro, and certainly, the beaches were not very impressive to me.

With the almost weekly attacks by drug dealers in Rio (grenades being tossed into Rio Sul & Leblon, buses set on fire), Rio is looking less and less appetizing.

I was in Receife for the first time last year and was not impressed, though some of the surrounding beach towns were really beautiful. I feel the same way about Forteleza, but my visit there was many years ago and I here it has changed...or at least grown bigger.

As you said in your last post, people find Salvador magical, there is something about the place. The center of the city has been restored and it has a wealth of colonial architecture. They also have live music in the streets every Tuesday. My favorite neighborhood is Barra which is surrounded by some nice city beaches. Salvador attracts mostly Europeans, I don't see a lot of Americans there. I have never had a problem with safety but it does have a bad reputation for street crime.

I dont think you are going to find any place like Rio. Despite all its problems its still my favorite city in Brazil...but Salvador is a close second.

Is it safe to assume that you are not an expat or a tourist?

If not how do you classify yourself? A place without expats or tourists is a Brazilian place. How is your Portuguese?

Joe

My Portuguese is good. I can understand 95% of the news, and about 60-80% of the novelas.

I would like to be an ex-pat, but am still in the process of resolving VISA issues so I can actually work and live in Brazil legally.

I agree. I think Rio really is a special place. The most unfortunate development of Rio in my opinion is the design of Barra da Tijuca. They had a chance to create a new "Ipanema", but instead chose to mimic the sparse, inconvenient, and sterile look of a U.S. suburb. Really, Barra da Tijuca just depresses me. I hear that even the Brazilians who moved there are realizing how much of a pain it is to commute, and are beginning to move back into the city.

The lawlessness in Rio is also getting outrageous. I would bet the chances are very high that a large group of tourists will be caught in the cross-fire between police and drug dealers in Copacabana one of these days.

Are the beach towns outside of Sao Paulo worth looking into? I went to Santos, and it looked a little run down...although it seems like a lot of Paulistanos buy condos and houses out there, and in Guaruja.

By the way, what is it about Salvador that people like so much? Is it the night life, the people, the design of the city, the food?

It's actually too bad Belo Horizonte doesn't have a beach, because I find the city quite friendly and nice. A little dead and boring during the day, but it was a nice contrast to the madness you find in Sao Paulo.

What I like most about Salvador is the beach, the water is clear and warm all year round. I also like the colonial architecture and the food. Its also inexpensive to live there, I rented a small one bedroom furnished apt one block from the beach for $250 a month. I recently saw an apartment in the same building listed for sale at $65,000 Reais.

Now the down side, if you are looking for great nightlife, it certainly can't compare to Rio or Sao Paulo. I have made a circle of friends there, but I don't find the people particularly friendly. Maybe they are just reserved because there are lots of tourists coming and going. I think like most places, you need to live there for a while to establish good friendships.

Has anyone else on the forum visited Salvador...what have your experiences been like?

RICHARD,I`M PLANNING TO STAY IN SALVADOR FOR AT LEAST ONE MONTH IN THE NEAR FUTURE AND WOULD LIKE TO HAVE THE ADDRESS OF THE APT THAT YOU STAYED IN.

Hi Joe, Salvador has lots of temporary apartments for rent. I found this one through the newspaper "A Tarde" when I got there. You will probably have to speak Portuguese to do this, very few people speak English. As a matter of fact, since I didnt look like a local, most people assumed I was a German or Italian tourist.

Anyway, the easier but more expensive option is to use an apartment rental service, I did that last time I was there because it was high season and apartments were more difficult to find. The name of the one I used was Bahia Azul located in the Barra neighborhood, but there are several. There is a big difference in price between Low and High season, probably close to double the price. Sometimes you can bargin down a little but these people make a living trying to get as much money out of tourists as possible.

The apartment I rented for $250 US, was on Av. Princese Isabel the main street in Barra. It was about a block up from the beach Porto Da Barra (beautiful clear calm water, very popular with young locals). The name of the building was the Maria Cristina I dont remember the number and in Salvador people rarely use building numbers instead they use the building name...talk about small town. If you speak Portuguese you can ask the porteiros (doormen) of the apartment buildings if there are any temporary apts for rent. Apartments are pretty basic and not very large but of course nicer ones are available depending on what you want to spend. Get back to me if you have more questions...I hope you have a great trip.

Sorry Allen...I was reading Joe's interesting posts and got your names mixed up.

THANKS RICHARD,I WAS ALREADY INTERESTED IN THE BARRA NEIGHBORHOOD SO YOUR COMMENTS ARE REALLY HELPFUL.

There is no such thing as a free lunch.

life is where you find it. Despite all the negative gringo mythology about Barra it has the best quality of life in the city of RJ, that is just the way it is, there is nothing that can be done about it.

Gringo Barra Myths

1. You have to have a car - false - besides you can buy a new car for under 10k US
2. No girls available - Have you been to the Praia de Pepe?
3. The buildings are ugly - so what? they are not wall to wall like Copacabana and Ipanema and they have pools, tennis, saunas and PARKING!!! and most of the buildings in Ipanema and Copa are ugly too. (The ones that aren't ugly you can't afford to buy) You don't get the high noise level that comes from wall to wall buildings.


4. Brazilians are moving back out of Barra because of the commute

Lots of people have moved their businesses to Barra in response to the commute problem. Office buildings downtown have a high vacancy rate because of this.

Barra is a heaven for surfing, windsurfing, boogie boarding, kite surfing etc. Barra and Recreio are being connected by a bicycle path and sidewalk that will streach 18km.

You can walk on the sidewalk or beach at any hour of the day or night. No favelas, pivetes, junkies panhandlers or old whores.

Apartments in Barra are cheaper than Ipanema.

Brazil is not going to build a new city for you

Joe

Joe,

This sounds like an argument between Los Angeles and New York.

Some would say New York is horrible. Too crowded, too dirty, too dangerous, with none of the outdoor attractions that make the West Coast a beautiful place to live.

Others say it has the compact liveliness of a metropolitan city. Walk outside and you're never alone. Great for singles. A night life that can't be beat.

I spent time in Barra and did not like it. I had difficulty finding a cab. I found very few beach side restauarants, cafes, and botequins like the dozens one can encounter in Leblon and Ipanema. And yes, I could not get around Barra without a car...even for the few weeks that I was there.

Some people love Los Angeles. I don't. Some people love suburban life. I don't. Some people love Alphaville. I don't. Some people like Barra. I definitely don't.

I live in Barra, I have a car. If I want to go to Copa, Ipanema, Leblon I go there. My only complaint about that is the inconvenience of finding parking. When I get tired I go home to Barra where it is quiet and I have all the services of my building (including security). So I can be a tourist, like you, when I want to be, and live peacefully when I want. Because I have a car I can go to Buzios (for SCUBA), Parati, Angra etc. when I feel like it.

You are wrong about LA vs NYC those are 2 different cities Barra vs Ipanema are neighborhoods in the same city. More like the Village vs the upper East side in NYC (I lived in both).

Factoids:
1. Barra is closer/faster to the International airport because of the Linha Amerela than Dopacabana/Ipa
2. It is faster for Paulistanos to Fly from the downtown SP airport to Rio Itl and on to Barra then to Sit in Traffic from SP to it's beach towns (beach in Barra is better too).

Living here is completely different from visiting. My guess is that you like Dopacabana/Ipanema because it is easier to pick up whores than it is in Barra and you would rather sit in a bar and drink than do healthy stuff like kite surf or bicycle.

Joe

Easy Joe,

I think you are oversimplifying. Copacabana, Arpoador, and Ipanema offer plenty of ´healthy activities´, actually a lot more then Barra.

Where do all the international surfing competition n Rio take place after all? (Tip: Arpoador) Where did the world beachvolleyball championship was played last month? (tip: Ipanema) Where is the international extreme sport competition is taking place this week?(tip: in Leme)

Take a walk on Copacabana beach any time and you would see surfing schools, beach volley and footvolley games, football games and so on. People rollerblading, skating, biking, joggin...

There are plenty of people who have no interest in whores and sedentary bar existence who live in Zona Sul. Most of my friends would not even think about living in Barra for plenty of the above and below mentioned reasons. For me personally, it reminds too much of a water-down version of some Florida ´hot spots´ like South Beach and Daytona Beach that I strongly detest.

While I have to agree with you that Barra has a lot to offer convinience-wise, I do not agree that it comes even close to the cultural life that takes place in Zona Sul.

Besides, I wouldn´t be caught dead taking Linha Amarela from the airport. I´ve seen too many carjackings and shootings there in the plain daylight.

Just an idea of driving through Cidade de Deus and Complexo Alemão at any time is a major turn off.

It takes me about 20 minutes to get from Copa to the International Airport and about 15 minutes to Santos Dumont.

I actually detest Copacabana with a passion. Nothing wrong with ogling girls, but to be honest, I find most of the "working ones" in Copa unattractive. And believe me, you couldn't pry the reais out of my hands to pay those tourist-trap restaurants that line Copacabana's Avenida Atlantica.

Usually, I end up going out to clubs like People and Melt in Leblon, or even a few in Lagoa. I've also been to Nuth in Barra, and even dated a girl I met from there, so I actually have mostly fond memories of Barra. But nevertheless, if I wanted to live in a suburb with nice outdoor life, I would just move to Marin county in the Bay Area and be done with it.

My biggest dilemma is whether my curren trajectory towards residence in Sao Paulo is something I should resist 100%...because I'd hate to go all the way to Brazil and end up in a concrete jungle vs sunny Rio. I'm also scouting for a beach house/apartment, am am hesitant about Rio due to its criminal elements.

Sorry for incorrectly stereotyping you, for the most part Brazilians think that most foreign tourists are sexual tourists like the gringos who hang out at the Meia Pataca, since I don't hang out with foreigners I must have fallen into this mindset myself.

I just got comfortable here in Barra because I bought an apartment in Barra 20 years ago when there was nothing here. Despite the chaotic growth I never saw a neighborhood I liked better for living. The cultural events that Boris refers to I can drive to or take a bus when parking is impossible. Also I am a day person.

Living in São Paulo is not a really good idea, it is at least as dangerous as Rio, has EVERY imaginable urban problem, gets chilly in the winter and is too far from the beach.

Of course if you can afford to live in Marin county you could afford an apartment in Rio AND an apartment in São Paulo.

I'm going to drop out of this thread now, but since I must always have the last word. While they did virtually build a new city in Brazil for me, they will not build a new one for you.

Joe