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punishment witnessed by females

July 29 2003 at 6:33 PM
 

 


I received c.p very often as a boy,both at home and at school.My two sisters and the girls in my class were exempt from this,but took great delight in watching punishment being administered.My father used to spank me over his knee with a large wooden hairbrush of mums,it did,nt matter if there were witnesses or not,but my sisters always tried to be around It was the same at school ,boys were slippered in front of the class while the girls tried to get a good view .The whackings were painful enough but the humiliation of females being present was just as bad

 
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DavidS

Re: punishment witnessed by females

July 29 2003, 7:20 PM 

When I was caned on my hands at a UK state comprehensive it was witnessed by the 3 other boys who I was in trouble with and also by the Deputy Head and our year head who were both ladies. The deputy was around 55-60 I should think but our year head was quite young, good looking and we all had a crush on her. I felt very embarrased getting punished in front of her despite that it was my hands and not my bottom that was getting whacked.

 
 
Stu23

Re: Re: punishment witnessed by females

July 30 2003, 11:09 AM 

I have posted here before about my schooldays in the midlands in the 1950s. Several of our lady teachers in the juniors seemed to have a great love of giving pretty vicious canings to boys on the hand - never girls. They were frequently given in front of the class or even in front of the school if the offence took place in assembly whilst the whole school was gathered together.

The girls, however, seemed to stop their chattering and suddenly take a great interest when a caning was about to happen. This also seemed to apply to the teachers who were keen caners (all of these were ladies). If, for instance, you misbehaved in the playground and the duty teacher was one of the caners, she took you to your form teacher at the end of break to report it. Once the class had reassembled the cane would be produced and used and the duty teacher would always hang around to witness the punishment. Didn't understand it at the time since they must have had a class of their own to go to.

I later went to an all boys grammar school which had no lady teachers. It was the rule (probably unwritten) at the time that secondary school boys were always subject to the cane for anything more than trivial offences and it was always given on the bottom, over trousers, with the tail of the blazer folded back.

The following scenarios have always fascinated me:

- if the Head was alady (although there weren't many of these about at the time I guess there must have been a few) what was her routine when she caned you or would she get one of the men teachers to do it.

- if you were sent to a male Head together with some other boys you were always caned in front of one another. If you were sent to a lady Head together with some girls would she cane you in front of them with the girls just being given lines or detention.

- if you were at a school where the prefects were allowed to cane (common back then) and there were girl prefects did they inflict canings themselves or if a caning was going on in the prefects room did they watch.

Must have been nice being a schoolgirl back then. All boys lived in the constant fear of getting the cane but girls didn't. The worst thing that could happen to them was being put in detention.

 
 
kelly anne

Re: punishment witnessed by females

October 26 2003, 5:24 PM 



I started senior school in the mid sixties aged eleven.It was about november and there had been a heavy fall of snow.At morning assembley our housemaster said that he didnt mind anyone snowballing on the large school field but under no cicumstances was anyone to throw snow near the school buildings
I was walking along the path in front of the classrooms when a snowball exploded on my bare legs,it stung.A boy in my class ithink his name was Steven came running up with another snowball,but iwas to quick and threw my own snowball,it missed .There was then a sharp rapping on the classroom window,the boys p.e master was summoning us both to his room.As we both walked in together steven made the comment that he was going to get whacked,iwas a bit nervous even though id been told that only boys received c.p.We knocked at the door and entered MR.S was sat behind his desk looking very angry,he told that he,d witnessed the whole episode,and had saw steven throw first but also he,d seen me as well.He rose from his chair and brought it round to the front he then picked up a thick book from the shelf and placed it on the floor just in front of the right hand leg of the chair ,this puzzled meMR S then opened his desk drawer and pulled out three sheets of foolscap paper followed by a very large ,old plimsoll,iwas very scared till MR S put my mind at rest.Don,t worry dear thats not for you, he said i breathed a sigh of relief.He told me i was to write two hundred lines for friday,he then told me to stand to one side i thought he,s going to punish this boy in front of me,MR S called Steven to him, told the boy why he was to be punished "your going to receive six whacks young man have you anything to say"Steven just mumbled he was sorry.Iwas feeling really sorry for him ,we had both committed the same offence but he was going to be slippered by this very large man."Remove your blazer" said MR S Steven did so MR S then sat on the chair and put his right leg on the book ."Bend over my knee " ordered the p.e master Steven did so MR S then administered six of the hardest whacks i,d ever seen to the poor boys bottom he howled the class down, i tried to look away but iwas fascinated by the punishment taking place in front of me i could,nt wait to tell the rest of the girls.That was the first time i saw a boy being disciplined i saw quite a few in the rest of my schooldays but that one will always stand out There must be thousands of females out there who witnessed boys being punished

 
 
maria

Re: punishment witnessed by females

October 30 2003, 5:53 PM 



When i was in secondary school our regular teacher was ill so a young female student teacher was put in charge of our class,of course most of the boys started to fool around and the noise just got louder.That was soon stopped by the entrance of the headmaster,the student teacher explained to him that it was the boys who had made all the noise.He said he was going back to his study for his cane and all the boys were going to receive three strokes on his return,the whole class went silent the boys with fear , i think ,the girls all wondering if they were going to see all the boys caned.The head returned holding a very long cane and pointing to the first boy called him to the front and ordered him to bend over, the head then administered three hard whacks to this boy.All us girls were fascinated by this as none of us had seen boys caned before The scenario was repeated ten more times till every boy had been caned i,ve never seen as much squirming in seats or heard as much howling as the cane connected with there tight trousers.That was the only time i witnessed boys being punished ,it was a unforgetable experience, i,m just glad that us girls were,nt punished the same

 
 

Caned in front of school

July 13 2008, 2:43 PM 

I went to a public school in England. Canings were a fairly regular event. It was an all boys school until one year before I left when girls were then admitted. For minor offences you would be canned over your trousers by prefects with no more than 3 srokes. For more serious offences you would be sent to the housemaster who could punish you with 6 srokes of the cane over your trousers or 3 strokes across you bare bottom. I got into real trouble when I was 15. I stole a car which resulted in me appearing before the Headmaster. I knew what to expect. At evening assembly I was to appear before the whole school of boys. I was to be stripped naked and then given six very hard strokes of the cane. It was an experience that was to be repeated the following year when girls had been introduced. It was a very unusual things to be caned in front of the school but my crime was considered so serious that the only other option was to be expelled. I had been caught with a gun and once again I was told to appear at evening assembly wearing just my dressing gown and slippers. The buzz around the schools was quite clear and I took a lot of stick from the girls. At evening assembly I came into the room and saw that most of the girls had taken their seats in front of the platform. I was marched onto the platform and given a brief lecture. Facing the assembly I was ordered to remove my dressing gown and stood there naked in front of the school. I was then told to turn round and bend over and received 12 very hard strokes of the cane. It never happened again.

 
 
Steve M

Re: punishment witnessed by females

July 13 2008, 3:55 PM 

I didn't know there were any public schools in Grimsby.

Which I assume is where one would go to be canned over the trousers?

Do tell us which august establishment liked parading naked 15-year old boys in front of girls;I'm sure there'll be a rush of applicants for places!


Steve M

 
 
Another_Lurker

Re: punishment witnessed by females

July 13 2008, 9:12 PM 

Very fair comment Steve! It certainly wasn't anything like that at the public school I attended, more's the pity!

And that's despite the very close proximity of that school to the establishment attended by Teresa of the smacked legs and Named & shamed threads!

PS Useless but interesting: I never knew one could get those little emoticons to wink! You certainly learn new stuff on this estimable forum!

 
 
Steve M

Re: punishment witnessed by females

July 13 2008, 9:57 PM 

A-L

Never having attended a public school, I probably should keep schtum, but I can't quite see any Head of such a school stimulating the other sex with that sort of thing.

Come to think of it, even a particularly useless Head would be hard-pushed to find any reason to keep a car-thief on board ship! There was one such bloke in my 6th form at Grammar-he'd been expelled from Lancing College simply for stealing from other boys pockets.

Let's face it, would any decent car-thief anyhow want to steal to order the sort of thing most of our school teachers drove then? I exempt my head of French, who had a fab 50's Citreon, to go with his black cord jacket, immense 5 o'clock shadow and air of Gallic superiority. He probably influenced the entire Goth music movement and Eric Cantona, born a mere year after Black Jake joined our happy throng!

I suspect, regarding usefulness, a skilled computer hacker might have been another story, had such creatures existed in our day. At least until the school was surrounded by the CIA,FBI,& SWAT teams led by Bruce Willis after he'd hacked into the Pentagon's defences under cover of researching Fermat's last theorom for the Head of Maths!!

As for emoticons, glad you have mastered the winking bit. I will have a go one day, but only when they produce ones that remind me of the character AND undoubtedly lovely shapes of Lotta, Ketta & Teresa!



Steve M

 
 
Another_Lurker

Re: punishment witnessed by females

July 14 2008, 1:09 AM 

Steve, absolutely spot on regarding the class of cars owned by the teaching staff, but then when I was at school you had to be fairly wealthy to own a nice car - not far removed from the post-war austerity!

Motorised transport owned by our lot had a special hazard to face. There was a covered area along one side of the yard held up by iron pillars. These were just the right distance apart for a determined group to drop the fairly small cars then extant in between them with a couple of inches to spare at either end. Braver (or more stupid, in view of the sanctions available) lads than me were wont to do just that to cars belonging to members of staff who made themselves particularly obnoxious.

As regards your last paragraph, animated GIFs aren't my speciality, but I have been known to indulge. If the ladies concerned would care to post a suitable photograph .............

 
 

punishment witnessed by females

July 15 2008, 12:17 AM 

I have just discovered this group, and after reading through the posting,its quite amazing how many of
your recollections i can empathize with.I went to school in the north of England between 1967 and 1978.We lived in fairly typical middle class suburb.The discipline both at home and at school harsh.My
parents were firm advocates of corporal punishment and disciplined my two sisters and myself accordingly.At home my mother administered the CP.She always used a carpet slipper,which tended to be a standard hard soled slipper.I was slippered in the living room often in front of my sisters etc.It was always on my bare behind with my pants or pyjamas being ceremoniously pulled down.And yes i was usually reduced pitifully to tears, and no, my sisters did not enjoy the whole thing at all.They were slippered in their rooms, sometimes bare but usually through nightwear.And no matter what time of the day, we were sent to bed after a slippering.We did not go hungry as my mother always brought us something to eat later on.
This was humiliating enough, but the real humiliation was at school.Every pupil at first and middle school took with them everyday to school a "slipper bag."Which contained the ubiquitous school slipper or black rubber ridge soled plimsoles.As mentioned in other posts shoes were not allowed indoors at school we had to change into slippers.If a pupil forgot his slippers then he had to go barefoot indoors for the day.Boys had to wear shorts.In winter many of us used to change out of long trousers into shorts after arriving at school.Everyone used to walk to school in those days.Now i know this may
be hard to believe for some of you but if a boy forgot his shorts to change into, he would be made to
go all day indoors in his underpants, and also would have his legs severely smacked as well.
Boys were slippered in front of his class, consisting of girls and boys and usually on the bare bottom.Girls would have legs smacked with skirts pulled up.When i got slippered at school, i always got a reciprocal slippering at home.Some of my slipperings were so painful that at home even before my mother handed out another one i could barely sit down. Believe me being sent straight to bed afterwards was a godsend in many ways because i could lay down in my soft bed.
Boys would often get lined up in the playground all in a line and touching toes in front of the whole schooland get slippered.
Finally there was one female teacher we had when aged 7 to 9 who was just so strict.We did PE twice a week. Boys just in their underpants and girls in pants and vest and always in barefeet.We had to undress in the classroom,boys and girls together and then after changing we had to walk from the classroom down a long corridor with classrooms on either side totally visible for all to see.
Still with this this same teacher, we movedto a new classroom.One day it was raining at playtime so she let us stay in the classroom.Anyway, myself and four other boys ran around the room and unbknown
to us and by accident we scuffed the news tiled floors with our rubber soled slippers.She went crazy
and gave us the most horrendous and humiliating thrashing on our bare behinds. We howled and screamed with the slippering she gave us in front of the class.And then to ad insult to injury the phoned all of our mothers at home to come a fetch us, knowing full well what they would do to us when we got home.And further to that for the next month when i got home from school instead i was made to change straight out of my uniform into my pyjamas and go to bed at 5.30pm.And sadly my sisters and their friends used to tease me about this when they came round to play.

 
 
Joel

Punishment witnessed by females

July 15 2008, 3:21 AM 

I went to a small rural public school in southern Illinois in the late 70's early 80's. Up through the 3rd grade both boys and girls were paddled the same way. The teacher would stop class bring her chair to the front of class, sit down, call the offender up, have them pull down their pants or lift up their skirt, then put you over her lap. While over her lap she would pull your shorts or panties down below your butt, and give a few stinging swats with a small paddle in front ofeveryone. She would pull up your underpants, stand you up to pull your pants back up. There was only 11 people in my class. Paddlings were a daily if not twice daily occurrence. Both boys and girls where equally paddled and just as hard. There was nobody that never got paddled.

 
 
The Oracle

Re, punishment witnessed by females

July 20 2008, 8:46 PM 

I was punished in front of the class, half of whom were girls, several times at my primary school in Birmingham during the sixties. On two occasions I was caned on my backside, the rest being the ruler on the hand. Girls were also sometimes punished in front of the class, normally with the ruler on the hand, but occasionally on back of the legs. However I do recall one girl being caned, she got one stroke on each hand, but the strokes were so light, that it was more of a token punishment and I suspect her tears were from embarrassment, rather than pain.

 
 
Eric

Re: punishment witnessed by females

July 23 2008, 2:08 AM 

Up to the 60s,I think,(I'm not sure about the exact date),it was quite common for females to go and watch the judicial caning of boys in the USA.
These females were either court employees or journalists. And according to several accounts they were usually in their early 20s. And also several of the boy's victims(like thefts,rapes etc.)could be present for the canings,including young girls.
The canings were done on bare buttocks,so these girls and young women had quite a show. And I'm sure most of them enjoyed it. The boys could be as young as 13.
Sometimes they were caned in groups of up to 4 or 6 boys according to official reports. So these girls must have had quite a show.

 
 
Safrada

Re: punishment witnessed by females

July 23 2008, 9:49 AM 

Eric, where did you hear about this? Which states had judicial caning?

 
 
Eric

Re: punishment witnessed by females

July 23 2008, 10:23 AM 

Mostly southern states like Georgia etc,where they had a large black population and a high juvenile crime rate.

 
 

Bob T

Re: punishment witnessed by females

July 30 2008, 11:04 AM 

Joel; I don't even know where to start. Your account lacks credibility. I know they were tough in Southern IL because I lived there for a few years in the '60s but as religious and conservative as they are there is no way anybody was pulling down pants or lifting skirts.

 
 
Eric

Re: punishment witnessed by females

July 30 2008, 1:57 PM 

If you looked at the All-American sites of this type you'd be wondering if Joel is right after all. There is nothing but posts of this type on these sites. Could they all be wrong?
On the other hand I must admit that Americans do exagerate things a bit.
I've looked through hundreds of these posts by Americans and didn't find a single one which said that they got less than 80 swats with a usually heavy paddle,both at schhol and at home. I don't know how anyone could survive that.
There are other exagerations(which might be true)of boys doing P.E.in the nude at some schools and even forced nude swimming in the school's swimming pool,sometimes by a female(clothed) instuctor.
I'm not saying that these accounts are not true,our American guests could tell us someyhing about this.

 
 

Bob T

Re: punishment witnessed by females

July 30 2008, 7:17 PM 

Eric, I went to one of those small rural schools for 4 years. 3rd through 6th grades. The rules were the same all over. If you can picture this at the time there were small towns that could be 6 to 10 miles apart. They all had their own little elementary schools, but they were still in the same district. So they all had the same rules. Nobody got more than six swats bending over touching toes.

If you were unfortunate enough to get in trouble while in gym class or in the locker room you might get paddled in gym shorts or underpants.

When I started junior high I was sent to a Military boarding school. Anything could happen there. You could be paddled right after leaving the shower. I never saw it happen but I saw somebody come close. His entire body was shaking with fear while he was getting a stern lecture from the coach who already had the paddle in hand. It was rare to escape a paddling in Military school and even rarer when they had the paddle in hand.

My last two high school years were at a public school in Chicago where CP had been banned before I was born. However there was forced nude swimming. If you skipped that class you failed gym class. The teachers were male and usually gay.
At least mine would stand by the open doorway between the locker room and the pool. He always had a bulge in his pants. We all hated the bastard. I never once saw a female enter the pool.

That doesn't mean you can mix and match these things. What happened at Military school could never happen in a public school.

In southern IL the people are very conservative and religious. There would be no nude swimming, bad touching, or bare bottom paddling. Any teacher who tried something like that would get a visit like Frankenstein got with the torches and pitchforks. Only it would be shotguns and tar and feathers.

Short of the bare bottom spanking, a female teacher could get away with almost anything back then. Teachers were held in very high esteem and children were second class citizens.

 
 
Eric

Re: punishment witnessed by females

July 30 2008, 9:50 PM 

I believe most everythimg you say Bob because it fits in with what those U.S.posts say but without being exagerated.
However what struck me most was this idea of forced nude swimming at school which seems to have been prevalent in nearly every school in the big cities and around,many of which had their own pools. I think this went on up to the mid or late 70s. But this rule seems to have been applied only to boys,even in mixed schools,which were the majority.
It's probably as you say that there were usually no females present,since they had these swimming lessons separately. But there is a post or two which say that sometimes,quite rarely,they had a female substitute teacher when the male one was absent. And the boys still had to do it in the nude. They said it was very embarassing for them,but they had no choice.
I think this practice also went on in a few schools in England. But I must check upon this. And in Germany they even made inter-school swimming competitions in the nude in front of spectators of both sexes. But more of this later.

 
 
Lotta Nonsense

Re: punishment witnessed by females

July 30 2008, 11:10 PM 

Compulsory nude swimming at English schools?

It was certainly the practice at one school I know of.

Not my own, I hasten to add.


Such classes supervised by opposite-sex teachers?

I think not.

 
 
Another_Lurker

Re: punishment witnessed by females

July 31 2008, 12:08 AM 

Eric, despite the opinion of some of the more recent recruits to this estimable forum I am not in the business of deterring genuine posters. I realise that little by little you are trying to enter into the spirit of things here.

However, with your constant harping on the theme of nude boys supervised by clothed femalesNote 1, I can't help feeling that this Forum, whose title is School Corporal Punishment may not be your true spiritual home.

If you set your preferences to 'Do not filter my search results' and then Google 'clothed female naked male' or 'cfnm' (the usual acronym for this particular kink) you will find lots and lots of forums and sites which I am sure will be far more to your taste than this one. I can't offer advice to assist you in making a selection, as my proclivities lie elsewhere.

I fear you may well have to pay for admission to some of the sites, but I am sure you will find the investment well worthwhile. Hope this helps.

Another_Lurker

Note 1:  In fact you started on this theme in what I think may have been one of your earlier posts here, on 20 July 2008, under the name 'Observer' in my 'Prefects: Pupils Punishing Pupils' thread, and have alluded to it in many of the posts you've made since under the name 'Eric'!

 
 
Eric

Re: An. Lurker

July 31 2008, 1:00 AM 

Dear An.Lurker,In the few days I have been on this site I have contributed on every aspect of school CP and on every new topic that came up.
On the other hand I have noticed that every time your name comes up on this forum it is only to criticize others without ever contributing a single iota to this forum.
It seems I have become your favourite scapegoat.And it is obvious that this is done out of pure jealosy,because you can't write about anything.
I suggest that you enrol in a critics' site since this seems to be your favourite and only subject.

 
 
Another_Lurker

Re: An. Lurker

July 31 2008, 1:59 AM 

Thank you, Eric, or Observer, or whoever you happen to be at this particular point in time. I'll let my record since I started to post in this estimable Forum speak for itself and I'm happy to be judged by people who have been here long enough to know what they are talking about.

However I will reply briefly to a couple of your ludicrous allegations:
  1. "every time your name comes up on this forum it is only to criticize others"   I'm not sure how far you've looked back, not very far I suspect. Yes, I have done a fair bit of 'attack mode' stuff in the past few days, because I am sad to see people like you and others who have joined us around the same time reducing this Forum to some sort of joke arena for silly games and dubious fantasies. Also, in the past, I have crossed swords with some members here regarding technical matters. Since after due investigation they found that what I had said was correct I feel that I had some justification for defending my position then.

  2. "without ever contributing a single iota to this forum."   Like two threads in July which to date have attracted 56 and 29 responses respectively, a reasonable proportion of them serious despite the efforts of people like yourself! Like earlier individual postings which attracted what I'll modestly describe as 'favourable comment' and even a claim by someone that I was a 'historically illustrious' former member of the Forum posting under a new name (I wasn't).
Relative to the long history of this estimable Forum I haven't been here much longer than you. However, before I started posting I took the trouble to acquaint myself with the Forum's ethos, its past history, and some of its personalities. It's a pity you couldn't be bothered to do the same!

 
 
Eric

Re: An. Lurker

July 31 2008, 10:47 AM 

You're way off topic,as usual,my dear Luker. But I will answer some of your points.
1-Records-I don't have to look far back.Anyone can compare your postings to mine and see the vast difference. And that is not even including Observer. Your record isn't very good I'm afraid,mostly insults and personal criticism.,and blabbery.
2-Ethics- It is amazing how you can talk about "ethos". If insulting people personally,which seems to be your hobby,is "ethos" then I don't know.
3-Contributions- Your topics have been kept alive by new posters like me and others,which make roughly half of the postings in them. The other half is nearly all vague postings by yourself. So you can't boast about them. Anyone can check this on your latest topic about Prefects!
I think this is enough for now.
Try and change your attitudes and we'll get along a bit better.

 
 
Another_Lurker

Re: punishment witnessed by females

July 31 2008, 4:00 PM 

Eric, I have given careful consideration to what you say. We are never going to agree, or at least I suspect not! However, you're here, I'm here, and whilst I'm happy to argue the toss with you indefinitely and you appear quite amenable to doing the same with me, I'm sure that everyone else is totally pissed off with the proceedings by now!

Can we agree that I'll keep my tanks off your lawn if you keep yours off mine? If so, as far as I'm concerned, it's back to business as normal. I've made myself a little aide-memoire to remind myself of this when I post, because we aged persons can be a little forgetful, especially when in a hurry.

You are possibly going to think that what follows is an immediate breach of our putative agreement, but I would contend that the normal business of this forum is for someone to post and someone else to discuss/question the posting. I hope you agree. I'm interested in your posts above regarding judicial caning of boys in the US and the incidence of female witnesses thereto. Slightly off-topic for this estimable Forum as a whole, but well on-topic for this thread.

First, caning in the US. In the course of 50+ years interested in CP I haven't come across many references to caning in the US. Implement wise they seem to go for paddles in those states where they still have school CP, switches (which are not quite the same thing as canes), paddles, belts and yard sticks (big flat wooden rulers, we'd call them) domestically and, when they had it, paddles, straps and whips for judicial and prison discipline CP. Maybe Bob T or someone else with direct knowledge of the US will be kind enough to comment on this, but in any event I'd be interested to know your source for the judicial caning of boys in the US.

Next the female witnesses. I don't doubt that if the US had had judicial canings in recent years there might possibly have been adult female witnesses. They are very big on the 'all out in the open' principle in the US, TV cameras in court all the way through to witnesses at executions. However, I don't think they'd have had the 'participants' partly stripped, and if they had done they certainly wouldn't have admitted "young girls". This is a society that, ostensibly at least, is even more concerned about protecting young girls from untoward influence than we are, and watching lads being caned with their pants down must count as untoward by any standards!

Possibly in the days when CP was used for internal prison punishments there might have been witnesses of the oposite sex. Ironically the only reference I've ever seen to this in the US referred to males witnessing females being punished, and was set a long time ago. The context in which I came across it (a very old lady who had had a rather interesting life discussing said life with a reporter) seemed authentic. I can't find the item now, though I'll keep trying, nor can I vouch for it's authenticity but in essence what it said was:

The lady in her youth had been for a time an inmate on a prison farm. I don't remember the exact date, but I think it was 1920s, could have been earlier. In the female section of the farm the requirement for corporal punishment very seldom arose, so when it did for convenience inmates were taken over to the male section, where it was an almost daily occurence.

The lady in question had undergone this procedure. The punishment, a leather strap across the buttocks with the prisoner in a standing position, was administered by a male warden, with other male wardens controlling the waiting prisoners. The male prisoners were naked, the lady got the benefit of what I think she termed a shift. She did say however that because the strap was dipped in water then in sand the shift got fairly shredded in the target area. I'm sure it goes without saying that the lady was not white, nor were the unfortunate male inmates, at least on that occasion. On reflection, I suppose the witness situation here cut both ways, since she also witnessed the males being punished.

I had intended to discuss what I think to be the possible source of the 'females witnessing boys being caned' posts we've had here, both Eric's above, and another I recall, but can't find now, which was set in South Africa. Yes, I know it's on Corpun, but I fear the ultimate source may be a little bit more suspect. However, I've gone on far too long, so I'll leave that for another day.

 
 
Another_Lurker

Re: punishment witnessed by females

July 31 2008, 10:47 PM 

Blimey, it's gone very quiet here! I do hope it isn't due to me posting something about CP rather than the "insults and personal criticism" that Eric thinks is all I post. Happily I think some of you have been here long to know otherwise!

I like anything I post to be either my own experience or verifiable from other sources. In the latter case if I can I give the sources, if it is hearsay then I say so.

It annoys me that I cannot locate for certain the source of the US prison farm item in my posting above. I think it may possibly be from 'Partial Justice: Women, Prisons, and Social Control' By Nicole Hahn Rafter, Published by Transaction Publishers, 1990 (Originally published as 'Partial justice : women in state prisons, 1800-1935' by Northeastern University Press, 1985) but I don't own a copy.

There is a Google Books entry for the volume. Some pages are accessible, including page 97 here (scroll down very slightly, layout below differs slightly from original due to OCR process) which contains the following:

"The abysmal level to which care of women in southern prisons often sank was described in 1924 by Frank Tannenbaum.

'The condition of the women prisoners is most deplorable. They are usually placed in the oldest part of the prison structure. They are almost always in the direct charge of men guards. They are treated and disciplined as men are. In some of the prisons children are born either from the male prisoners or just "others". One county warden told me in confidence, "That I neah kill that woman yesterday". One of the most reliable women officials in the South told me that in her State at the State farm for women the dining room contains a sweat box for the women who are punished by being locked up in a narrow place with insufficient room to sit down, and near enough to the table so as to be able to smell the food. Over the table there is an iron bar to which women are hand-cuffed when they are strapped.'"


Infuriatingly this confirms the period, the use of the strap, and the vertical posture of the unfortunate prisoner subjected to it, but doesn't include the sometime transfer to the male section of the institution for punishment.

 
 
Eric

Re: punishment witnessed by females

August 1 2008, 2:00 AM 

Hi Lurker,Yes I think we can get along better now. It's no use throwing mud at each other and getting nowhere. I'm sorry if I was a bit rough,but that's where quarelling leads to I suppose.
Anyway,about this subject of females witnessing punishments in the USA,what I recounted above used to happen sometime in the 50s and before and not today. I hope I haven't been misunderstood. I forgot where I got this information from,so I suppose it still has to be verified. But what can definitaly be verified,because it is on official court proceedings in the USA,is that many women are being employed as guards in many US male prisons and have to perform the same duties as their male counterparts,including totally naked strip searches and shower overseeing on a daily basis. Many of these girls are just out of college and as young as 20. This is a form of extra punishment for the inmates,so much so that many of them have complained and taken the case to court. But they've all been turned down in favour of the female guards. I will give you the name of the site later beause it is not in front of me. I don't think this is out of subject since it is the title of this topic. And even if it is about youngsters I'm sure that this also happens in juvenile institutions since they are under the same authorities.

 
 
Another_Lurker

Re: punishment witnessed by females

August 1 2008, 3:41 AM 

Hi Eric,

You say: "But what can definitely be verified,because it is on official court proceedings in the USA,is that many women are being employed as guards in many US male prisons and have to perform the same duties as their male counterparts,including totally naked strip searches and shower overseeing on a daily basis."

Absolutely correct, although I don't think this is the case in all States, and I think the official rules in those States where it does apply often stipulate that the women's duties should only include the more controversial elements when unavoidable due to duty rosters or emergencies. Of course, emergencies and duty roster problems can happen frequently, even, as you say, daily!

We must remember though that the converse is also true. Male guards are employed in female prisons with exactly the same problems. It's called equality of the sexes!

I have to say, and I understand that you may well disagree, that I think the practice of opposite sex guards is more objectionable where men are employed in female prisons.

Barring the odd streaker (and even there pecuniary advantage in the form of a bet is sometimes involved) I have never heard of a woman who would deliberately seek to be naked or otherwise sexually vulnerable in the presence of a male or males (other than a desired sexual partner) unless she was being paid an adequate sum for the privilege.

However, substantial numbers of men pay what one assumes are not insignificant sums to submit themselves to a variety of humiliations, including nakedness, in front of or by women - just google femdom!

I am not suggesting that the US male prisons are full of men with those inclinations, but I am fairly sure that the trauma for the average male of finding himself naked in front of a female authority figure is significantly less than for a woman finding herself in the same position with a male.

 
 

Bob T

Re: punishment witnessed by females

August 1 2008, 8:51 AM 

One thing you can be sure of. In the south before the civil rights movement black people had no rights to speak of. If they were in prison, they were being abused. Male or female. White people weren't treated much better in those prisons. So you can make up just about any story and it probably happened to somebody.

I tried to upload a picture of a Louisiana prison strap, but it won't work. It is a fearsome looking weapon.

 
 
Research Assistant 2

Re: punishment witnessed by females

August 1 2008, 9:30 AM 

Bob:

If you would like to send the picture to us,
Big John, our Manager of Images, will attempt to display it on the Forum, as soon as he’s had his tea.

 
 
mimi

Re: punishment witnessed by females

August 2 2008, 12:46 AM 

Lets be totally honest the Strap shown is a weapon beyond belief. One can only imagine the pain and damage inflicted by such a thing.
What this has to do with School CP escapes moi though.

 
 
Safrada

Richard Madeley

August 27 2008, 7:58 PM 

I read this today in the newly-released edition of a well-known men's magazine. Richard Madeley is talking about his schooldays. Here is what he has to the question of whether there was discipline at his grammar school.

" We had the cane at school, but I have to say that the punishment was rather sexualised. The master in charge of giving the beatings insisted on bringing in a witness, and it was always the same teacher, a blonde woman who taught English. She just happened to be his fiancee as well. She liked to watch, no doubt about it. There was definitely something extra going on there."


 
 
mimi

Re: punishment witnessed by females

August 27 2008, 8:39 PM 

Strangely enough a similar situation existed in my Sec Mod
One delicious red haired female teacher always tended to send boys to Mr S for the slipper. They were allways hanging about together. Wonder what if anything she got in return apart from the obvious sadist thrill of having boys punished.

 
 
Steve M

Re: punishment witnessed by females

August 27 2008, 10:18 PM 

MIMI

Just perhaps.......

Mr S had a deal with Rita Hayworth.

Every boy you send to me to slipper, you get that number of spanks from me this weekend.

By Lotta's laws of averages, there must have been more than one truly kinky teacher in our days, and maybe 2 of yours were drawn towards each other, rather than an accidental collection of atoms.


Steve

 
 
mimi

Re: punishment witnessed by females

August 28 2008, 12:40 AM 

Blimey Steve, she would not have been able to sit down on a monday morning.
However if I recall ( genuinely) she used to stand in front of her desk a lot and kind of lean back against it!
OMG just think she had a well spanked ass!
My God they must have been having fun and I always looked on him as a public school homo type!
I have tried to trace these and other old teachers, but its a brick wall job to get into the Ed site as you need your teaching cert to enter.
Perhaps my friend can get in.
Watch this space!

 
 
Tommy

Re: punishment witnessed by females

September 2 2008, 10:33 PM 

This is my first post in this group I went to a strict Catholic school in the North of England in the 70s and here is my experiences of this topic.
At junior school both boys and girls were punished in front of the class during the first couple of years this was usually a ruler applied to the hand nearly every day this happened only usually 2 strokes but they stung.
When we went to 3rd year we had our first male teacher he used a plimsoll and both boys and girls would have to go to the front of the class and touch your toes for 2 or 3 strokes believe me they made your eyes water.
in our last year we another male teacher who also had a slipper but his was an old leather soled carpet slipper which really stung, he had no distinction between hitting boys and girls though more boys got it than girls.
The only caning I saw was in 3rd year three boys had been caught stealing they each got 3 strokes of the cane off the elderly headmistress with all the boys in the school assembled the girls were not allowed to watch.

When I went to high school cp was harsher with the cane and slipper used more often but usually in private or with the other boys who had been caught with you.
The only public punishments were in Pe or Metal/woodwork classes which were all boy affairs, in pe the games master would often slipper in the privacy of his office which was just off the changing room but he would leave the door open but you could not see anything just hear the slipper landing with a sickening thud on some guys arse and him emerging clutching his sore bottom as he headed to get showered.
Girls never witnessed boys getting punished at my high school and they were not immune thmselves they would be sent to the deputy headmistress who used to cane them on their hands, boys would usually be dealt with by the deputy headmaster or the head himself but we were caned on the backside usually 4 strokes though 6 for very bad offences always over trousers though I know the deputy had a habit of sending for boys when they were in Pe so he could cane them on just thin cotton pe shorts.

 
 
El Edi

New to this site

September 6 2008, 11:44 AM 

I attended a fairly small rural school on a Scottish island in the 50s and 60s. There were both sexes of teachers and pupils.
The only method of corporal punishment that was ever used was the Lochgelly tawse. This leather strap came in 3 weights, and they were used, lightest on juniors, heaviest on seniors.
Boys received it frequently, but it was rare for a girl to be strapped. (They usually got lines). As all classes were mixed, boys and girls, the girls witnessed each boy getting strapped either by male or female teachers. More serious offenders were sent to the headmaster, and he really did give the miscreant a proper thrashing.
There was one young female teacher who really did appear to enjoy administering the strap. Hardly a day went by without some poor boy getting it. The girls did seem to take keen interest in these strappings, to the point of suggesting how many strokes should be given. It was very uncomfortable standing there with your hands stinging while she debated if you should get another one or perhaps two more strokes. Most of the girls were also keen to see the marks left on your hands later.
The headmaster had a young attractive secretary who shared his office and always made a point of being in the office to witness strappings. She had a habit of sitting on top of her desk, ( facing the boy being strapped), and crossing her legs, with her skirt hitched up, and would sit there smiling at you. She then would ask what you had been strapped for, and as you would be sobbing, she would tell you to “compose yourself.”
It has to be said that some of the boys reported having an erection while being strapped, but no one was sure if it was the sight of her legs, and stocking tops or another deeper reason.



 
 
Sara

Punishment witnessed by females

September 14 2008, 12:49 AM 

It was always the boys who got the slipper or cane at school in the seventies.
The girls had to count for the boys whacks. we were very lucky not to be punished in the same way.
We used to put bets on which boy would be getting whacked next which made the whole thing quite comical !

 
 
Lotta Nonsense

Re: punishment witnessed by females

September 14 2008, 8:03 AM 

El Edi says he went to school on an island.

It was clearly 'Fantasy Island'.

 
 
Safrada

Re: punishment witnessed by females

September 15 2008, 10:52 AM 

Sara, was it jus one teacher who used to slipper and cane the boys at your school, or were there more? And were they male or female?

 
 

Any more?

September 25 2008, 9:51 AM 

Is their anyone else that knows of any other female school secretarys that took a keen interest in boys getting the strap or cane?
At my school, it was curious that when ever a boy was being strapped in his class, she nearly always "happened" to be passing. She would watch the strapping, then question the teacher concerned as to the offence. Then, have the boy report to the headmasters office at last bell and have him explain to the headmaster what he had done. This very often resulted in another strapping, which again she would watch, perched on her desk.
It would be true to say that most boys were more afraid of her than their teachers!
She appeared to be allowed to have more authority than one would expect her to have.
There was a strong suspicion that, prior to the boys arrival, she would tell the headmaster the story she had got from the teacher, and if the boy tried to make out that he was less guilty, she would correct him, and the headmaster would thrash him for lying or arguing with her. This thrashing was always done with his Lochgelly XH tawse known by one and all as "Black Bess". The boy would inevitably leave in tears,and his secretary would have broad smile on her face as she ushered him out.
She was not adverse at any time, to threatening any boy she disliked with "aquainting him with Black Bess."
It has to be said that the headmaster was probably more than a little in awe of her. He was a very short, balding man, with a large belly, who always wore oldfashioned suits and had a very domineering wife, while she was a very atractive young woman who dressed in short tight skirts and silk blouses.

 
 
Jane2

Spanking secretary

September 27 2008, 8:49 AM 

I finished school at the end of the fifth form and started soon
after as the school's secretary. My boy friend was in the
upper sixth and I had brothers in the 5th and 3rd forms. One
of my jobs was compiling the daily caning register. The
teachers and prefects would report boys for punishment and
I would add their names to the list together with the
recommendation for the number of strokes if there was one.
I was also supposed to check the boys punishment record -
how often he had been in trouble in the previous 12 months.
An entry in the register consisted of the boys name (Smith
B), form (T4B), offence (fighting), recommended
punishment (4), and the number of times the boy had been
in trouble (2). The records were hand written and often hard
to read so I sometimes had to guess.

The names would be called out at morning assembly and the
named boys would assemble outside the headmasters office.
The headmaster and first assistant did the caning acting as
each others witness. The boys were called one by one in the
order on the register and told of the charge and asked if they
had anything to say. Usually they didn't and usually the
recommended punishment would be given. The school
office was next to the headmaster's and I could clearly hear
the crack of the cane and occasionally a gasp or a yelp.I did not
like it at first but soon got used to it.

The fun parts were when brothers or boy friend names had
to be added. My brothers were mean to me so I added and
extra stroke to their penalty and an extra offence to their
records to make sure they really got it. However, I didn't tell
at home out of kindness and I had to keep school business private.

Occasionally, a boy would be sent for immediate
punishment for some serious offence requiring immediate
punishment. I made an entry in the register and reported the
boy's presence to the headmaster. On these occasions I had
to witness the punishment to save a teacher having to be
called from his teaching.

One day, my boy friend arrived with a chit from the PE
teacher recommending 6 strokes for impertinence and sloth.
I put 4 strokes on the register and expunged his record for
the past 12 months. It didn?t work. The penalty was
increased to 6 on the bare. I did not get to see as I was
instructed to turn my back before the baring and the
punishment began. It turned out the headmaster knew we
were an item although we thought it was a secret. The only
compensation was what happened that evening.
Later, I became secretary to the Queen and got the Nobel
prize for literature.

 
 
Another_Lurker

Re: Spanking secretary

September 27 2008, 7:40 PM 

Thank you Jane2, a most charming little story, well told and with an unexpected twist at the end. You will find if you explore this estimable Forum further that in their wisdom the powers that be have provided a special section for postings such as yours, and indeed those of El. Currently this section is to be found here and I commend it to you for your future postings!

 
 
Rita

Openion of a Female Teacher

November 6 2008, 9:07 PM 

I am a school teacher in a sr. secondary school in South India ,a mix school. I have gone through different experiences and fantasies on this intresting forum.In nut-shell discussion is limited only in few lines .1-Mostly boys were caned .2-Girls used to enjoy witnessing boys being caned.3-To my surprise few female teachers enjoy sexual gratification out of caning boys .I have studied in the same school where I am working as teacher now. When I was a student cane was frequently used to discipline boys only.Girls loved to witness with great intrest ,caning of boys .Whenever any girl reported against any boy to any teacher ,even without evidence, poor boy was subjected to severe caning .Many girls used to take undue advantage of this privilege,either to take revange or for their pleasure.Although banned by Govt. cane is still used in my school and in other schools of South-India. Personally I believe, cane should be used for boys to control the effect of their teststeron ,in presence of girls or privately. Bare bottom caning is totaly unacceptable in civilized society.Let us discuss short early and late Psychological effects of cane based on ground realities. I have discussed openly this subject with my exstusents .They expressed their views clearly. Majorty of boys took cp as routine.They felt the humiliation and girls attitude as witness was more painful than impact of cane.About twenty percents openly declared their inclination for Masochism.Ten percents enjoy sadism.Very few ex-girl students are intrested on the subject One boy confessed that during his schooldays he enjoyed being caned by beautiful young lady teachers and often used to create such situation

 
 

Spanked in front of females

November 7 2008, 9:31 PM 

See history under headmistresses .

Spanking at my school was done in private for the most part.

The spankings were bare hand on bare bottom.

Maybe once a year or twice it was done in front of the class. I remember only once that this happened to a girl and only once to me in all the years from k-8.

Girls were spanked as boys were and for the same reason.

The spankings were done so that the class only saw you from the back.

 
 
ron

back garden slippering

November 9 2008, 4:08 PM 

Back in the 70s in the UK I was slippered with trousers on in the back garden and I could see the girl next door was loving it.

 
 
Bozo

Slippering a "Girly"punishment?

November 15 2008, 12:22 PM 

It is my experience that real girls will often admit to "Getting the slipper"when recounting school days.
This is because a girl on a tube train once actually stated this to me in a casual exchange of words perhaps when the subject was raised for some reason I cant rememember.(in the 1980s)
This girl was fairly normal white middle class looking aged about 25 or so.
"Getting the slipper"seems to be a punishment girls can accept and admit to
almost as though they agree with its suitability.
Other punishments like cane,BB,hand,strap just dont seem to be considered or owned up to by real girls and are therefore rarely mentioned.

 
 
Another_Lurker

Re: Slippering a "Girly"punishment?

November 15 2008, 8:41 PM 

We're a tad off topic here, given the original title of this thread, but I never could resist putting my two penn'orth in, so here we go!

Hi Bozo, you say:

Other punishments like cane,BB,hand,strap just dont seem to be considered or owned up to by real girls and are therefore rarely mentioned.


I'm guessing you don't spend much time north of the border! You certainly won't have great difficulty finding Scottish women of appropriate age who'll admit to having been 'belted', in other words the tawse on the hands, which was endemic for both sexes in state schools there for many years prior to abolition.

IMHO the readiness of males to admit to having received school CP depends on how 'macho' the punishment concerned is percieved as being. The cane gets a high macho score, and is thus often admitted to, or even claimed under false pretences! However, you won't find too many males admitting to having their legs smacked, even in infant school. Being invariably totally honest, I of course have done just this elsewhere in this estimable Forum! wink.gif

For women, who in general are more concerned with morals and propriety, I suspect the critical factor is how much a punishment marked her out as a really naughty girl. During the appropriate period prior to abolition in many schools in England girls didn't need to be particularly naughty to be slippered. Likewise the belt in Scotland. This therefore can be admitted to. To receive a more serious punishment, such as the cane, would usually have required a girl to be very naughty indeed and is therefore less likely to be mentioned.

Shoot me down folks, this estimable Forum will be even better for a few more posts! happy.gif

 
 
Paul b

Re: Punishment Witnessed By Females.

November 15 2008, 9:15 PM 

Can't shoot you down A-L! Because what you say I agree with.
Girls didn't have to be particularly naughty to receive the
slipper and I know a few.(married one)
I also know two girls who admitted to being caned, one on the wrist,
the other on the hand.
Today they probably would have had a detention or a telling off.
I will say girls can be just as naughty as boys, in some cases
naughtier.

 
 
Steve M

Re: punishment witnessed by females

November 15 2008, 9:27 PM 

A_L

Dead right, I'm afraid. In my day & a little less so in yours, caning of girls WAS a rare event.

Even the commonest caning offences for boys (smoking and skiving off lessons) didn't seem to invite the same section for girls, in most cases. I know it's not the best example perhaps, but just look at the 1954 film, The Belles of St Trinians;not until the Vth form barricades itself upstairs and complete anarchy threatens to break out do the canes appear & then they're brandished principally by the Old Girls, who, on their charge to take the dorm, would probably have the All Blacks turning and running, too!

To my knowledge, the only things girls who were either my contemporaries or after me got caned for were cheating in exams, bullying and persistent lying/insubordination. Not in every case, mind, so I suspect the only sure way to get caned as a girl in the 50's and 60's (aside from Ketta's dragon!!) was to get arrested for it first!


Steve M

 
 
PhilUK

Re: punishment witnessed by females

November 16 2008, 1:48 PM 

I attended a large inner-city comprehensive in northern England during the early seventies. The slippering of boys was a common daily occurance for minor offences like talking and fooling around in class. If it was a single sex lesson it wasn't unusual to be slippered straight away, touching toes at the front of the classroom, if it was a mixed class you'd be told to stay behind after the end of the lesson. The cane was reserved for more serious offences and required a trip to the headmasters study and of course was only ever administered in private.
Girls generally seemed to get away with lot more than the boys, or it certainly appeared they did!, but there were occasions when girls did receive corporal punishment. This meant s trip to see the deputy headmistress where they were usually slippered, although I did find out it was administered skirts raised over their knickers. I know this because my sister, 2 years my junior, attended the same school and was slippered on a couple of occasions herself and she told me.
I can only recall a couple of occasions where girls received the cane, two girls for the theft of some money from an old lady and another girl for a serious bullying incident. As far as I am aware the canings were administered in the same manner as the slipper, skirts raised over knickers, but as with the slipperings always in private.
I know a lot of people here don't believe girls ever received any cp at school, but I can confirm they certainly did at our school, although no where near as often as they boys

 
 
ron

girls listening to punishments

November 23 2008, 11:57 PM 

Back in the 70s our school used cp on boys in private but the punishments could sometimes be overheard by girls, either a caning in the heads study or getting the slipper from the games master in the office.

 
 
Safrada

Re: punishment witnessed by females

November 27 2008, 4:31 PM 

Ron, did any of the girls who heard boys being caned or slippered ever comment on it afterwards?

 
 
ron

girls overhearing boys punishments

November 29 2008, 1:47 AM 

Hi Safrada,

After a canning or slippering there would usually be rumours after the event, boys by nature, me included, would try and keep it secrete but I know some girls were interested because I did overhear some conservations. I guess by the second year all the girls knew what happened in detail.

Did you go to school at a time where cp was used?

 
 
A_Lurkologist

Punishment undoubtedly witnessed by females, to whit - Diana Rigg

November 29 2008, 5:09 PM 

For a non-speculative account of punishment witnessed by females and someone not even our most persistent deniers of almost everything can rail against with even the slightest shred of credibility it is hard to do better than the reminiscenses of Dame Diana Rigg, she of the Royal Shakespeare Company and 'The Avengers'fame as the delightful Mrs Peel. In a documentary on her life recently shown on British television she returns to her old mixed-sex (Co-Ed) senior school which I am not certain but think was probably a private boarding school. In one part she is allowed to go back into the study of her old headmaster and while there makes several observations of interest. At one point she goes over to the large sash window opposite the entrance door and says that shortly after joining the school she remembers walking past this window with some other girls. The window was open, as I seem to remember it was in the documentary also, and hearing a noise she looked up at the window to see a boy bending over a chair in the process of being caned by the headmaster. He apparently received six of the best, which they witnessed, and heard. Other comments made by Dame Rigg were that the room was quite familiar and looked very much the same as when she was at the school. Perhaps more interestingly in conjunction with the relating of the observed caning she also said that later on she herself had been summoned to the study by the headmaster on more than one occasion. However she did not go into any further details of her own experiences in this respect, perhaps judiciously leaving it to the viewers imagination, based on the information already given.

 
 
Safrada

Re: punishment witnessed by females

November 30 2008, 2:07 PM 

Hi A Lurkologist,

I don't personally know Ms Rigg, and presumably you don't either, but I'd confidently assume that unlike the boys at her school she never received the cane, no matter how badly behaved she was. I've read countless posts on FR and elsewhere that leave me with the definite impression that corporal punishment and especially caning was predominantly used only on boys. That differentiation was across the board, stretching right across the social class spectrum of education. There were two very significant sociological studies undertaken in Northern English comprehensive schools during the era of school cp which especially highlighted this distinction and explored it, Marks On The Memory, by Julia stanway, published in 1988, and Pupil Power, by Lyn Davies, in I think 1979. Both books are, of course, long since out of print, but I expect you might be able to find them on e.bay or Play.com if you were interested.

Julia Stanway's study was particularly meticulous in analysing the phenomenon of school cp - the book's appendix indicated no fewer than nineteen references to corporal punishment and caning. It is apparent from the author's fascination with caning that she had no experience of it from her own schooldays, even though she was a generation older than the teenagers whose school lives she was observing, and that it was this outsider's perspective which fuelled her fascination with the culture of the cane. Indeed she seemed to be a bit obsessed with it (the very title of her work was a reference to receiving the cane). She examined the lives of the parents of the young people as well as the pupils themselves, and she drew attention at numerous points to the fact that far more men than women had received any sort of cp at school. The school she was studying had a strikingly archaic discipline system and caned boys only - girls were completely exempt from any sort of cp. Boys were also slippered in the changing rooms if they forgot their PE kit. Among many fascinating and amusing anecdotes she was particularly bemused to learn how the harder boys had a 'caning league' in which they competed to see who could gain the most stripes in any term. Most of all she wanted to understand why the boys themselves seemingly docilely accepted this treatment which she herself regarded as an obvious and monstrous case of sexual discrimination.

Lyn Davies' work focussed on another Northern English comprehensive school where although the cane was officially in place as a sanction for both boys and girls it was in practice used almost exclusively on boys. She noted throughout the book that the girls at this school were actually much more badly-behaved than the boys, because they were well aware that the school's ultimate deterrent couldn't be applied to them. She gives the at one point of a girl who openly effed and blinded when told to report to a teacher because she was in trouble, whereas a boy would never do so, and she emphasized that the girl was in for nothing more severe than a telling-off, whereas the boy might well expect to receive the cane. Ms Davies concluded that girls had more power in schools than boys because both male and female teachers extended them more leniency.

Both books are well worth a read if you are interested in this subject, and if you can find them.

I've also read many other references on the web to the different treatment of boys and girls. One woman who attended a mixed grammar school in sheffield gloatingly reminisced about how the headmaster used to prowl the corrifors looking for pupils who had been sent out of class for bad behaviour, and stated how if he found you, girls were just given a detention while boys would be taken to his office and caned.

Somewhere else on this forum there is the thread concerning Langworthy Road Primary School in Manchester, contasining memories drawn from the now-deleted FriendsReunited memories section. Ther headmaster there was a martinet but only to the boys, and there are entries telling how he caned a boys for cheering on the opposite school's netball team at an inter-schools match one boy who was given six of the best for merely straying into the girls' playground during a game of hide-and-seek by mistake. By contrast to his treatment of boys, one woman remembers how when she got into trouble this same head merely remonstrated very gently with her in order to persuade her to change her ways. Tellingly, many of the men who posted express anger and loathing towards this brutal teacher yet many women evince very affectionate memories of him. Another woman remarks ambiguously that this headmaster indelibly influenced the lives of her, her sister and brother "for better or worse".

Finally there is a remark made by the actress Claire Bloom in her autobiography when writing about her primary school: "The lessons were rudimentary and made no lasting impression on me, though I clearly remember the shrill squeals of boys being beaten for offences that would seem trivial today."


I didn't see the TV programme you're referring to, but it sounds as though the reason that the sight of that boy being beaten was such a compelling memory for Diana Rigg because it was and remained her only experience of the cane. This anecdote seems to evidence fascination rather than acquaintance with what she describes, and if she didn't disclose any of her own experiences with the headmaster's cane that will be because she had none. The fact is that corporal punishment amounted to a vast case of systematic institutionalised sexual discrimination against boys.

 
 
Alan Turing

Re: punishment witnessed by females

November 30 2008, 3:47 PM 

Safrada

In general terms, of course, I'm sure that you're absolutely right: corporal punishment, and particularly the cane, was much more common for boys than for girls. And yet -- in my adult life I've met three women who mentioned that they had been caned at school. No contradiction, of course, because when you look at the population as a whole you're looking at very large numbers. In previous posts I've suggested (based on my experience and a little statistical inference) that tens of thousands of women now in the 40 to 70 age range were caned when they were at school. Not many, compared to hundreds of thousands (or perhaps even millions) of men in that age range who would have been caned, but nevertheless a significant number when considered as a group of people in their own right.

 
 
Steve M

Re: punishment witnessed by females

November 30 2008, 3:59 PM 

SAFRADA

Thanks for a very good factual post. Hopefully some of our recent ninny-visitors might just shut up, but I doubt it.

There has frankly never been an era when girls were chastised to anything like the degree boys were, that is definite. However, even at the time those studies were undertaken, there were exceptions to those rules, both at secondary and primary level.

There was a famous example of a Liverpool comprehensive, where the OFFICIAL punishment book revealed an average of 6 boys minimum a week being caned, AND at least 5 girls a week being slippered. Yes, it was STOPP who publicised it, but there were no denials of the facts from school or education authority.

All of which, together with your quotation about the caning league tells us all one thing-it didn't exactly prove much of a deterrent, did it?

As far as girls were concerned, there was, and remains, a definite ethos that no respectable person hits a woman for any reason. There were a couple of girls in my primary school who traded on that by bullying smaller boys, until one lashed out at them.

Once the truth came out, no-one was punished at all. The girls were threatened with a bare-bottomed slippering in front of the class of the next child they bullied, but I doubt it would have happened, had been quite so daft as to do it again.


Steve M

 
 
Safrada

Re: punishment witnessed by females

November 30 2008, 8:19 PM 

Alan,

I didn't say that no girls ever got slippered or caned anywhere. But I think it's clear that their numbers constituted only a fraction of the proportion of victims of corporal punishment as a whole. It's even ingrained in the popular culture of the post-war era. Consider the St Trinians films. A whole school of nightmare teenage girls, all of them out of control. Please correct me if I'm wrong but is there even a single reference to, much less an instance of, caning in any of those films?

By contrast you have Nigel Molesworth. One of his strips was called "Canes I Have Known". It included various items of increasing brutality including, I think, hammers and chainsaws. Exaggerated of course but it did reflect the indelible fact that in those days life was inevitably harsher and more physical for boys than it was for girls.

It seems to me that there are far too many people on this forum who involuntarily salivate at the mental image of a girl being caned on her bottom (green knickers optional), and they are determined to find evidence for this phenomenon even where it doesn't exist. Well, sorry to disappoint you, boys, but I don't think that ever happened anywhere. Even when girls were actually caned I think you'll find it was on their hands.

Steven, what would have been the fate of a boy who had been caught bullying younger boys - or younger girls - at your primary school?

 
 
Steve M

Re: punishment witnessed by females

November 30 2008, 8:47 PM 

SAFRADA

Believe it or not,I don't recall a single boy punished for bullying! The punishment almost certainly would have been caned on the hands. But, if they'd bullied girls-I would guess still on the hands, but in front of the class; the prevailing ethos throughout my schooldays was that that sort of thing made you into a moral leper, even amongst your peers!

I can only recall 4 canings in 5+ years at Halstow-2 boys together playing truant, 2 girls the same. All 4 came back to class with hands under armpits, which was a dead certain hand-job, in the non-erotic sense!

Amazingly enough, no-one gave either pair the third degree at the next playtime. You can see all 4 miscreants and me on FR in a class photo & I can tell you several boys and a few girls in our lot must've been a nightmare to teach. Luckily for the biggest nightmare, he was always top of the class, and thus able to charm his way out of several decidely sticky patches, shall we say.

Incidentally, re the 2 female bullies-this was in the Kent primary school I attended from Feb-July 1963 only and where normally the cane on the hand prevailed for playground fights, the lad who was being bullied was initially going to be bending over for taking a swipe at a girl.

That's the principal I was trying to illustrate-we were not expected to hit girls, period. And, to quite a large extent, this attitude permeated into the teaching profession. As I said, not totally, but I'm sure it was still there 15-20 years after I finished in primary school, and even more so in secondary school in the late 70's onwards.

I think there may also be a more practical reason why very few girls got told to bend over for caning-from about 5-6 years old, that portion of the female anatomy visibly acquires more flesh and fat than that of boys, so across the hand might well hurt as equally as across the average male bum.

It could also be said that noticing the difference in les derrieres is one thing for boys. Dwelling on the respective spankability thereof is another thing, especially from about age 7!!

And, let's be honest, whether or not the cane worked as a deterrent, most teachers giving it would have wanted it to hurt, for deterrent or deviant reasons, or any combination of the two.



Steve M

 
 
mimi

Re: punishment witnessed by females

November 30 2008, 11:14 PM 

As far as I can recall all corporal punishment was administered with full strength.
I would personally find this hard to inflict on a child.
However, everyone survived and it seems to have worked.

 
 
Alan Turing

Re: punishment witnessed by females

December 1 2008, 8:30 AM 

Safrada

I didn't say that no girls ever got slippered or caned anywhere. But I think it's clear that their numbers constituted only a fraction of the proportion of victims of corporal punishment as a whole.

I completely agree with you: out of all those children who received corporal punishment at school, maybe 99% were boys and 1% were girls. (That's a guess, of course, and maybe it was 99.9% boys.) My point is that, in a population of tens of millions, 1% (or even 0.1%) still represents thousands of women who were punished in this way.

The same is true about having to bend over. I'm sure (as you are) that most girls who were caned received the punishment on their hands. But not all. The famous court case from 1976 (see here for details) concerns a girl who received three strokes of the cane on her knickers and tights, and this surely cannot have been the only instance.

As far as the slipper is concerned (and this was probably used more frequently than the cane for punishing girls) use on the hand would have been very infrequent: it's quite an awkward implement to apply in that way. When I was at junior school, over fifty years ago now, I watched as a girl was slippered in front of the class, for the heinous offence of talking to her neighbour. The punishment was one stroke on the knickers.

I dare say you're right that plenty of male fantasies are generated by these images, and that the fantasies overwhelmingly outnumber the facts. But the facts are there, too, and shouldn't be discounted.

 
 
Another_Lurker

Re: punishment witnessed by females

December 2 2008, 10:26 PM 

Safrada, I am reluctant to disagree even very mildly with someone who posts sensibly and lucidly, a quality becoming scarce on this estimable Forum as the hordes of 'female' fun posters continue to flood in unabated. My eminent fellow contributor Alan Turing has already made many of the points I would wish to dispute with you, but I have a few of my own.

I question the validity of quoting the cinema as authority for anything (your reference to the St. Trinians films). The cinema is entertainment not reality. I'll quote two films in my own area of interest, both of which were full circulation cinema releases in the UK. Cliff Hanger and K2. Absolute nonsense both of them, calculated to make real climbers and real mountaineers fall about laughing. Anyone who drew any conclusions about how either activity was conducted from them would have quickly come to a sticky end.

In one of your postings elsewhere (Steve M's 'The other sort of corporal punishment.' thread) you refer to an experience involving yourself and a teaching assistant at Infant School. From this I conclude that you are considerably younger than me as Teaching Assistants are a fairly recent innovation. Girls may well not have been caned at school other than on the hand in your experience, but, as Alan Turing has already pointed out, that experience is incomplete, and a number of court cases demonstrate this. The court cases are the tip of the iceberg. When I was at school no action by a teacher involving corporal punishment was likely to end in court, unless the teacher departed very far from the norms of the time. Beating someone senseless might have resulted in legal action, but certainly not applying a cane to a boy's, or a girl's, bottom.

I do not dispute that for almost any form of school corporal punishment we instance far more boys will have been subject to it than girls, possibly even down to the smacked legs so beloved of our 'female' fun posters. In my day, when little lads wore shorts to school, this was a staple of infant school punishments for both boys and girls. However at the opposite end of the scale a few older girls were subject to the severer forms of CP as well as boys.

And now those green knickers. Not much mentioned on this forum recently, except by me, so I assume the reference is to me. Well, for the record I don't 'salivate at the mental image of a girl being caned on her bottom (green knickers optional)' nor am I 'determined to find evidence for this phenomenon even where it doesn't exist'. In the latter case I don't need to, it exists in plenty. In reality though I've been attacked far more on this forum for saying that far fetched descriptions of the severe corporal punishment of females were nonsense than I have for the two descriptions of it I've posted, one from my own direct experience, and one narrated to me. In the latter case I made clear that I could only personally vouch for one element of the posting. Other contributors then unearthed references, from Friends Reunited and elsewhere, which seemed to verify that the incident related to me had parallels in other schools.

Both the above postings did include references to green knickers. They happened to be what girls wore for PT at that particular school. You will find that except for those two cases my references to green knickers are in close proximity to a happy.gif or a wink.gif. I'm sure you are aware of this, but in case you aren't happy.gif or wink.gif mean I'm joking!

And just in case you didn't mean me at all, please accept my apologies, but where green knickers are concerned I can't resist a good rant. happy.gif




 
 
mimi

Re: punishment witnessed by females

December 2 2008, 11:01 PM 

Strangely enough I have a bit of a fetish thing about la Nikeers Verte. Its in the mind though, reality wise they are a bit of an anti climax. How strange.
As for A Ls mention of reality and the media. I have never known the media ( in any form ) report or portray correctly anything whatsoever.
For instance an aeroplane dives and the engine noise increases, ridiculous it decreases. People fence in adventure films almost touching each other, in reality one would be as far apart as possible. Blood at depth underwater is shown red, in reality below a certain depth it appears green etc.
I have been involved with reporters a few times, their article when read is as accurate as a government accounting doccument.
I am afraid that most things are done for sensation. The incidents in Indja and the murder verdict today have relegated the credit crunch and oil into the archives.

 
 
Another_Lurker

Re: punishment witnessed by females

December 3 2008, 1:07 AM 

Hi Mimi, an excellent post. I must admit I'd overlooked the fencing thing in adventure films, but indeed when I think about it the few times one sees proper fencing the participants are usually way apart except for the fraction of a second when one of them makes a hit, as you'll know from personal experience. I certainly didn't know about the blood at depths thing either - presumably something to do with optical effects caused by the light transmission through water.

I've noted we've got a few opinions in common, but the 'la Nikeers Verte' as you put it, is a bit of a surprise. I thought it was only me! happy.gif Today's youngsters would find it incredible that my female schoolmates didn't rebel at having to wear those PT outfits. In retrospect though things were very different then and I don't suppose any of them even gave it a second thought. There was certainly no evidence that they did.

However, many years after I'd left school and when society's mores were more like those of today as regards what can reasonably be inflicted on the young, I was driving through the outskirts of Leeds. I was astonished to see a group of girls, certainly well beyond junior school age but wearing exactly the same type of kit, emerge from a school building and set off up a fairly crowded street, presumably en route to a sports area. Those young ladies would certainly have had every excuse to lynch whoever in the school administration had inflicted that on them, and I'm amazed they didn't!

 
 
Alan Turing

Re: punishment witnessed by females

December 3 2008, 8:33 AM 

When I was at primary school, girls would go out for rounders practice in vest and knickers. There were no changing rooms in the school, so the girls would simply take off their jumpers and skirts in the classroom. (Boys would strip to the waist to play football.) There was no specific school uniform, and my recollection is that navy knickers were most popular, followed by green and then white. I also seem to remember something called "Aertex knickers" where the fabric was punched full of tiny holes. I suppose it was thought to be "healthy".

No similar observations from secondary education as I went to an all-boys grammar school, but there was a girls grammar school just across the road. I did see, on one occasion, a netball practice, and the girls seemed to be wearing navy PT shorts. Apart from one who, as a second glance confirmed, must have left her shorts at home ...

 
 
Heidi

punishment witnessed by females

December 3 2008, 8:57 AM 

I do live in the US but did my schooling in a private girls school in the UK in the 1980s. Any accounts I read of senior girls being punished by non-female teachers in the UK around this time I simply do not believe. It was not permitted.

There was mild c.p. at my school such as smacking and to a less extent slippering, even in secondary school. But only by female teachers, usually the senior mistress or gym mistress.

Maybe in the 1970s and previous, girls could be caned but probably only by female teachers. I know that girls that went to mixed schools in the 1980s could sometimes be strapped across the hands, but probably by some female teacher. There was no strapping at my school. All c.p. was administered using open hand or sometimes slipper. All slippering was done privately. Most teachers were very fair and had a good relationship with most of the girls.

 
 
Alan Turing

Re: punishment witnessed by females

December 3 2008, 9:27 AM 

Thank you, Heidi, for that informative comment in response to the post from my alter ego Melton. I'd certainly agree with you that the punishment of girls by male teachers was rare, and in many cases it was expressly prohibited by school regulations (not necessarily the same thing). But I don't agree that it never, ever, happened.

The reason for this is simply the vast number of entries that used to be found on the UK Friends Reunited message boards, before the site was reorganised, from female students recalling occasions when they had been punished by male teachers. I dare say that quite a lot of those entries were fictional. But there were plenty of entries where the reference to corporal punishment was made in the context of remarks about totally different aspects of school life, and where it was clear that a group of pupils shared recollections. I think it is "beyond reasonable doubt" that some, at least, of those entries were recollections of genuine events in the past.

Personally, I am quite happy to accept Mimi's account. I believe that he and I are of the same vintage (secondary school in the sixties) and location (North London), though his secondary school was mixed and mine was boys only. [Mimi regularly has confirmed his male identity.] In many schools, the official regulations stated that corporal punishment should be administered by the head teacher using a cane of a particular specification. The use of a slipper in the classroom was completely outside the regulations, and yet it was very common; I think it was sometimes known in the staff room as an "unofficial punishment". I'm also happy to accept that sometimes the whole class would be punished: this was once threatened when I was at school, but never carried out. I can envisage such a punishment being carried out in a mixed class by a male teacher in the sixties, though perhaps not in the seventies or the eighties when attitudes had changed a bit.

It's interesting to look back over half a century. I wouldn't have believed it when I was younger, but it really is true that the past is another country.

 
 
Heidi

punishment witnessed by females

December 3 2008, 9:45 AM 

I am not disputing that particular incident you mentioned. All I am saying is that any non-female teacher who attempted to punish a senior girl in such a fashion would have been on very thin ice, even in the 1970s. That particular teacher was very unwise. Most girls did not require c.p. to settle them down. Usually a warning was sufficient. However if c.p. was required a female teacher should have administered it privately. Most people would agree with that, because it is simply common sense.

 
 
mimi

Re: punishment witnessed by females

December 3 2008, 6:25 PM 

Find me the regulation that says males shale not punish females.
Some authourities had reccomendations. These were not laws.
Teachers acted in loci parentis ( in place of parents ) and could apply punishments that would have been acceptably given by parents.

 
 
Doctor Dominum

An experiment in intervention

December 13 2008, 7:23 AM 

I wonder if such a long and convoluted thread can be made to move back to its original purpose, to match its subject heading.

Punishment witnessed by females - I have to say that it's not an issue I've ever felt really worthy of a great deal of attention. To a fair extent, I can understand why people might feel it undesirable for a male teacher to be involved in the corporal punishment of girls, because I feel that way myself in some ways (although I did it when I thought it was appropriate, and I probably still would if it seemed appropriate - you do the job you are expected to do whether it causes you discomfort or not, and if there's nothing to disqualify you from doing it, disqualifying yourself when you know you would never act inappropriately seems odd), but double standard or not, society has long accepted that it's appropriate for women to act towards boys in ways that it would be less likely to accept from men acting towards girls.

At my own school, we didn't have many female staff in the early part of my career, but it's increased over time and there's always been an assumption that female staff members should be expected to act in much the same way as male staff members, that their gender should be a factor in the performance of their duties only in very exceptional circumstances. As equal opportunity law developed, this expectation took on more and more force as a legal requirement.

We are very limited in our ability to expect anything different from a female staff member than from a male staff member, and so the idea that female staff members would not be involved in matters of school discipline where appropriate is not one we can easily support even if we wanted to.

Today, we restrict the use of corporal punishment to a relatively small number of senior staff. But there are female members of staff who occupy some of those senior positions. In particular two of our form 'masters' are women. Unless we wanted to (and were legally able to) deny senior staff positions to women, or to allow them to occupy those positions without giving them the same authority as male colleagues at the same level, we really have to allow them the same powers of punishment and we do. So they certainly can witness corporal punishment because they can administer it.

We also have a detailed appeals process in place when it comes to corporal punishment. Boys have an absolute right to make up to three appeals against a caning - one of these appeals is to a 'Higher Authority' (normally myself, or the Headmaster if it's my decision they are appealing against) and that one has really only ever involved males - but the second appeal is to the 'Matron' (actually to whoever is the duty nurse - most of whom have always been women) - or to a 'Counsellor' - a member of the school's standing counselling staff, who are roughly evenly split between male and female.

If an appeal is made and is denied, the person (or people) who heard the appeal are obliged to be present as witnesses during the punishment. This is to ensure that no boy faces increased punishment for daring to appeal (not that I think we would ever do that, but we exercise an abundance of caution in our process to make sure). In such cases, a female member of staff if they were the one appealed to (very likely if it was a medical appeal, quite likely for a psychologically based one) would be obliged to witness the punishment.

And it has to be realised that to be working in these positions (or as a teacher) there is an assumption the person can be trusted to act appropriately. Of course we all know there are cases sometimes where teachers don't act appropriately - some of them wind up in the media - but most school staff do and to do our jobs properly, we have to be afforded a great deal of trust. The fact that sometimes that trust is betrayed is a reason for some caution, but if we let it affect too much of what teachers can do, we allow the actions of a few unworthy people to infect the education of all children, making the damage they do far worse.

 
 
Another_Lurker

Re: An experiment in intervention

December 13 2008, 8:52 PM 

A timely intervention, Doctor Dominum. This thread has indeed drifted far from its original title of punishment witnessed by females, and I am ashamed to admit that I have been as guilty as anyone in bringing that about. I can only plead that the recent influx of fun posters has made me, and I suspect some other regular habitués of this estimable Forum, feel that any tactics were justified to quell the rising tide of lunacy!

Your contribution above is a most interesting one. The individual elements of your system as regards the administration of punishment by designated senior staff and the witnessing thereof by referees who have turned down an appeal are not of course new to me. I confess however that I have not perhaps given due thought to what they imply in a situation of equal opportunity determined staff responsibilities.

I conclude from your summary that a boy could commit an offense meriting caning by a senior female member of staff. In theory at least, if he then made abortive appeals to the 'Matron' and a female 'Counsellor' but, both of those appeals having been turned down, failed to exercise his appeal to yourself or to the Headmaster in your absence, he could be caned by a female member of staff with two female witnesses.

I presume that this would never happen in practice, since a boy seeking to avoid punishment would be foolish to forgo the ultimate appeal to yourself or the Headmaster. Indeed, I may have misunderstood, and this appeal may be actually be mandatory. However, it would appear that a boy could certainly be caned by a female with one or more female witnesses, albeit with the presence of one male witness. Or have I again misunderstood and only one of those who has turned down an appeal is required to be present?

From your own Forum I am of course aware of one instance where a female teacher caned boys, the summer camp incident of 2006. However, normally the sex of the menber of staff carrying out a punishment is not evident. Are you able to say, very approximately, what proportion of canings are carried out by female staff members, and of those, roughly what proportion would have one or more female witnesses present?

You of course are well qualified in psychology. Leaving aside the behaviour of staff involved, which I think it is reasonable to assume will be exemplary, do you have any misgivings about the potential effects on a mid to late teenage boy being caned by a female teacher, possibly with female witnesses?

As a layman it seems to me that whilst in later life very few women are likely to seek out the experience of humiliation or punishment by the opposite sex, other than perhaps in a close sexual relationship, a substantial number of men are likely to do so, hence the existence of the femdom 'mistress' industry. I suspect that at least a proportion of your pupils caned by female staff, especially with female witnesses, might well find the experience a little less punitive than the average boy, and indeed that it might swing them towards seeking such experiences in later life. Any comments you feel able to make on this would be much appreciated.




 
 
Doctor Dominum

Re: punishment witnessed by females

December 14 2008, 1:12 AM 

A timely intervention, Doctor Dominum. This thread has indeed drifted far from its original title of punishment witnessed by females, and I am ashamed to admit that I have been as guilty as anyone in bringing that about. I can only plead that the recent influx of fun posters has made me, and I suspect some other regular habitués of this estimable Forum, feel that any tactics were justified to quell the rising tide of lunacy!

There's nothing wrong with a forum tolerating some off topic discussion, and the conventions of this forum seem to be to tolerate an unusual amount of it. But when the longest visible threads are off topic, I think it's time to try and do something.

I conclude from your summary that a boy could commit an offense meriting caning by a senior female member of staff. In theory at least, if he then made abortive appeals to the 'Matron' and a female 'Counsellor' but, both of those appeals having been turned down, failed to exercise his appeal to yourself or to the Headmaster in your absence, he could be caned by a female member of staff with two female witnesses.

Theoretically, yes, that would be possible.

I presume that this would never happen in practice, since a boy seeking to avoid punishment would be foolish to forgo the ultimate appeal to yourself or the Headmaster. Indeed, I may have misunderstood, and this appeal may be actually be mandatory. However, it would appear that a boy could certainly be caned by a female with one or more female witnesses, albeit with the presence of one male witness. Or have I again misunderstood and only one of those who has turned down an appeal is required to be present?

Appeals are not mandatory (although there are situations where a teacher may decide to initiate the appeals process themselves over the objections of the student - fairly rare because in such a case, you would normally expect the teacher to decide not to cane).

It is by no means certain that a boy would appeal to Higher Authority even if he had chosen to appeal to the Matron and Counsellor, and we have actually had such a case this year. So theoretically if a boy was being caned by a female member of staff, and appealed to a member of the nursing staff, and to a member of the counselling staff who both happened to be female, he could wind up being caned in the presence of three women and no men. It's a plausible scenario. I'm not sure if it has ever happened, and it would not be very likely - but it's plausible. In the case this year, where a boy made a double appeal to Matron and a Counsellor, I was the teacher administering the punishment and the counsellor involved was male, so there were two men present and a woman - but there's nothing to guarantee a male presence in appeal situations (and certainly nothing to guarantee it in cases where a boy does not appeal - and that situation does arise).

I can understand why you might think it foolish for a boy who is trying to avoid punishment not to appeal to the Headmaster or myself - and if his intention was simply to do everything he could to try and avoid the cane, it would be - but the nature of the appeals process means it does happen. The reason we have an appeals process with multiple avenues of appeal is because each of the avenues is intended to address a different reason that a boy might be appealing.

The appeal to higher authority is intended to address those situations where a boy is either denying his guilt, pleading special mitigation, arguing about a rule or similar - when the facts are in dispute and he wants somebody else to hear his side of the story. The appeal to Matron (or whoever is duty nurse) is intended to give a boy a reason to plead his case on medical grounds (ie, that he is injured in some way that means he shouldn't be caned) while that to a member of a counselling staff, is intended to give a boy a reason to plead his case based on psychological or emotional grounds. These latter two appeals are confidential to a great extent - the person appealed to can veto the punishment without having to give any reason (except in very unusual circumstances).

There is nothing to prevent a boy appealing on any grounds he wants to to any of the people involved - a boy can appeal to me on medical grounds, he can try to convince Matron of his innocence, etc - but the process is intended to direct appeals to the person best qualified to judge a particular situation. And the boys understand how it works, and most use it appropriately.

A boy who admits he did the wrong thing, might well not bother to appeal to higher authority - he's not disputing his punishment on the grounds that make the correct approach. But he might still feel he had valid reasons to appeal to Matron or the counsellor.

From your own Forum I am of course aware of one instance where a female teacher caned boys, the summer camp incident of 2006. However, normally the sex of the menber of staff carrying out a punishment is not evident. Are you able to say, very approximately, what proportion of canings are carried out by female staff members, and of those, roughly what proportion would have one or more female witnesses present?

Yes, I can - at least for this current school year (which has just ended and I'm currently looking at our disciplinary record for the year). Before I do - just to clarify one point. The incident you mention did not occur at a 'summer camp' but at a 'school camp' (actually a combined camp with our sister school). It's a very minor point, but as I have found over the years that I sometimes wind up being attacked by people over such minor points, I prefer to clarify them if I notice them.

For 2008, approximately 18% of canings at our school were administered by female staff members. Of those, in approximately 6% of cases, there was a female witness present and no male staff member present. There was no case of multiple female witnesses without a male also being in the room.

In approximately 22% of cases, there was a female present either administering the punishment, or as a witness.

(These numbers might be slightly off - as I can think of one scenario that is not covered by the recorded statistics - there are cases where a parent or legal guardian may be present, but we don't record that in the statistics - if a mother was there, for example).

You of course are well qualified in psychology. Leaving aside the behaviour of staff involved, which I think it is reasonable to assume will be exemplary, do you have any misgivings about the potential effects on a mid to late teenage boy being caned by a female teacher, possibly with female witnesses?

Only very slight ones. I can't deny the possibility that there could be potentially negative effects on a boy from such a scenario. But I think the possibility is fairly slim, and - well, there's always some risk with using corporal punishment. There's also a lot of potential benefit. The whole process involves trying to balance risk versus benefit and out of all the potential risks, this is not one that I consider something to really worry about.

As a layman it seems to me that whilst in later life very few women are likely to seek out the experience of humiliation or punishment by the opposite sex, other than perhaps in a close sexual relationship, a substantial number of men are likely to do so, hence the existence of the femdom 'mistress' industry. I suspect that at least a proportion of your pupils caned by female staff, especially with female witnesses, might well find the experience a little less punitive than the average boy, and indeed that it might swing them towards seeking such experiences in later life. Any comments you feel able to make on this would be much appreciated.

I think it's virtually impossible to try and quantify this type of risk. It's non-zero but I don't believe there's any real reason to suppose it's much of a real risk.

I always worry about the possibility that something I do might have a long term negative effect on my students. I know that there are cases where it does. There are boys I've taught who I've caused problems for. I think that is true of any teacher with any experience. I believe the number I've hurt is absolutely dwarfed by the number I've helped. And I think that if I wasn't prepared to risk the small chance of doing harm, I'd have been able to help a lot less than I have. When it comes to corporal punishment this is especially true. For most students I've caned, I don't think it had much of an overall negative or positive effect on their lives in the long term. For most boys, it's effect is fairly neutral. But I think there's a substantial minority who it's helped, and often helped dramatically. And there's a small minority for whom it was negative.

I'm sorry for those people. And I'm sorry I did it to them. But I have to balance that against all the ones I've helped, and I can't decide that the boys who I hurt are more important than the ones I've helped. If out of every hundred boys, I've caned, sixty found it neutral, thirty found it positive, and ten found it negative (I'm not saying these numbers are accurate, just using them to make a point), while I'm sorry for the ten - I'd rather be sorry for them, than having to justify why I sacrificed three times as many for them.

For that matter, there are boys who I haven't caned who might have turned out better if I had. I've dealt with one first form boy this year who escaped the cane half a dozen times for bullying because his history made me very reluctant to cane him, and I hoped to find a better way. In his case, I couldn't find a better way - and the problems he was causing became worse and worse, for both himself and for others. I finally caned him when it reached the stage of having nothing else left to try, and we were facing the reality of getting rid of him (which would do him no good at all - there are cases where it's appropriate, and even cases where it's the best thing for the boy in the long run, but I don't believe that's the case for him). When I finally came to that decision, a relatively minor problem in March was a major, major problem in November. If I'd caned him back in March, two strokes might well have made a difference. As it is, waiting and delaying, means he'd been caned twice for a total of ten strokes, and while we've made headway (and I hope it's enough that non-punitive means will now be enough) we've still got a way to go. It would have been better for this boy for me to have acted more decisively earlier.

Do I regret the approach I tookfor months? Yes, and no. It hasn't worked, so I regret that, but I do believe I was making the best judgement I could. The point is, though, that every time I make a decision - and this is just as true of deciding not to cane as it is to cane - there's a risk I'll get it wrong to the detriment of the boy involved. It's not like one choice is always right, and one is always wrong.

There's another three boys in the first form who I treated in roughly the same way for roughly the same reasons, and for them that approach has paid off, by the way. I'm still not certain what the difference is for this boy. But I made the best choice I could, and I still am - even though it's now been a different choice.

 
 
Alan Turing

Re: punishment witnessed by females

December 14 2008, 10:44 AM 

I'd like to second A_L in expressing thanks for returning this thread to sanity.

A small comment, for what it's worth. I went to a mixed primary school, and a boys only secondary school. When I arrived at the latter, in 1961, all the teachers were male; but we did acquire three female teachers during my time there. I'm pretty confident that none of them used the slipper in class. One of the three did, however, marry one of the male teachers who used the slipper; no doubt they discussed the question on several occasions.

Primary school was different. The senior master certainly did cane boys in the headmistress' office, presumably in her presence, though I don't know whether she caned boys herself. (She did, occasionally slipper girls.) There was also a variety of classroom punishments, given in front of both boys and girls. One female teacher caned boys on the hand, and another used a ruler on the knuckles. I believe that several female teachers used the slipper on boys. One in particular used it frequently, with the boy bending over the seat of a small chair at the front of the class, in full view of everyone. This was the same teacher who (as I've mentioned elsewhere) slippered a girl in the same manner, lifting her skirt up in order to do so.

 
 
Paul b

Re: Punishment Witnessed By Females.

December 14 2008, 10:45 PM 

Alan, quite the reverse happened at the school I attended.
At my primary school only about five canings occurred while
I was there and they were on boys only.
At secondary school mine was a boys only too, there was a girls
school directly opposite.
We had two women teachers, one quite elderly the other young
and attractive who took English and PE.
The elder female didn't use CP, the younger one did
in the form of the slipper.
She would tell the boy to see her after the lesson so we never saw
her in action, except once when a boy was chewing gum, she made him
wrap it in paper and bin it, she must have been taking PE the
previous lesson as she was wearing a tracksuit and plimsolls.
She removed a plimsoll and told the boy to bend over a front desk
and gave him two whacks, not particularly hard, no where near as hard
as the bastard who slippered me.
She married one of the male teachers, who was one of the very few who
nevered used CP and believe me that was very rare in my school.

When I left school I got to know some of the girls from the school
opposite and found out their Headmistress slippered girls who stepped
out of line there.

 
 
Another_Lurker

Re: punishment witnessed by females

December 15 2008, 12:07 AM 

Doctor Dominum, I would like to say initially that I feel a little uneasy carrying on a discussion in this forum in which, however much I try to limit myself, I inevitably draw on information I have gained from your own Forum. I have the impression from past remarks you have made that you probably will not object to this, but I do not wish to make that assumption by default. The topic under discussion has arisen in this Forum, but I trust that you will indicate if you are unhappy to continue it here.

The incident you mention did not occur at a 'summer camp' but at a 'school camp' (actually a combined camp with our sister school). It's a very minor point, but as I have found over the years that I sometimes wind up being attacked by people over such minor points, I prefer to clarify them if I notice them.

My apologies for this mistake. I fully comprehend the reasons for accuracy in such matters.

For 2008, approximately 18% of canings at our school were administered by female staff members. Of those, in approximately 6% of cases, there was a female witness present and no male staff member present. There was no case of multiple female witnesses without a male also being in the room.

I have to say that the total of canings with no male present other than the unfortunate recipient does not seem very large. It is not of course possible to say from the above what percentage of canings were administered by female staff members alone, but presumably it would be substantially less than the 18% total for canings by female staff. It would also appear that only about 1% of canings involve a boy being caned by a female with a female witness and no other male present.

I think it's virtually impossible to try and quantify this type of risk. It's non-zero but I don't believe there's any real reason to suppose it's much of a real risk.

The risk in question being my suggestion that some lads caned by females with only female witnesses might find themselves influenced towards seeking to repeat the experience in a fetishistic manner in later life. I have to agree with you that this risk cannot readily be quantified. However at present I fear I have to reserve judgement on how much of a risk it constitutes.

Let us take the situation before 'equal opportunities' became a factor in the apportioning of duties between male and female staff in schools using corporal punishment, specifically caning on the bottom. In a mixed school I think that much over the age of 12 or so the norm would have been for female staff to punish girls and male staff to punish boys. There might be odd exceptions, but by the age of 15 or 16 I think these would have been fairly unusual and only dictated by special circumstances, your own caning of girl pupils from your sister school for instance. In single sex schools I would again suggest that over the age of 12 or so punishment would virtually always be by the same sex, even where both sexes were represented on the staff.

Contrast this with the situation dictated by equal opportunities legislation in your own school. Of boys caned 18% are caned by females, and in 22% of canings there is at least one female present, either administering the caning or as a witness. We have not touched on the age profile of boys caned by female staff, but I assume that while the majority of them are likely to be at the junior end of the school it can and does happen that senior boys, up to and including sixth formers, are caned by female staff, possibly with no other male present.

I have to say that this worries me somewhat. I think that a boy in his teens being required to bend over and be caned by a female carries very much the same connotations as a girl of similar age being caned in the same way by a male. You have experience of the latter, and you, very reasonably in my opinion, admitted to feeling some disquiet at the situation. Do your female staff not admit to similar disquiet at caning older boys?

Regrettably, in the case of boys being caned by females I think it is also necessary to consider another doubtless contentious but nonetheless, in my opinion at least, significant factor. I doubt that a girl being caned by a male teacher would be overly influenced in her response to the experience by the age or appearance of the person caning her. I am not sure though that this would be the case with young males. It may be that your female teachers who carry out canings are all elderly dragons. If however any of them are young and attractive I think there is an increased risk of at least some of the boys they cane regarding the experience as stimulating rather than punitive!

I'll reserve my judgement. You have the practical experience and the Psychology qualifications to back it up, I have the gut feeling. On the face of it, no contest, and that may well be the outcome. I hope very much that it is. I have always considered that, for boys at least, corporal punishment correctly regulated and controlled is more likely to do good than harm. You have the necessary regulation and control, but in my opinion the advent of equal opportunities legislation has introduced a skewing factor whose outcome is not readily predictable. I fully accept that your actions have been and are determined by what your experience tells you is the best outcome for your pupils given the prevailing circumstances and nothing I write is intended to suggest otherwise.

It would be interesting to know more about the age profile of boys caned by female staff. This cannot be readily assessed by an outsider from available information, although sufficient is available to put a little flesh on some of my concerns. It may be that you already have a good idea of this profile and that it belies my fears. I hope you will have time to respond to what I greatly regret is a very long post.

Regards,

Another_Lurker



 
 
Doctor Dominum

Re: punishment witnessed by females

December 16 2008, 10:43 AM 

Doctor Dominum, I would like to say initially that I feel a little uneasy carrying on a discussion in this forum in which, however much I try to limit myself, I inevitably draw on information I have gained from your own Forum. I have the impression from past remarks you have made that you probably will not object to this, but I do not wish to make that assumption by default. The topic under discussion has arisen in this Forum, but I trust that you will indicate if you are unhappy to continue it here.

I'm perfectly happy to discuss it here, and I have no objection to references (or even brief quotes of myself) from the schoolcp forum being brought up here in they are of relevance. As people retain copyright on e-mails, I would be unhappy if somebody was quoting other members of that forum here without permission, and I would prefer long quotes from myself not appear here either because of the risk of context being lost, but certainly discussing information from that forum is absolutely fine if it adds to discussion.

I would say that (given my constant attempts to encourage most on-topic posting on my forum) it might be interesting if issues raised here, were also raised there on occasion - but that's another issue.

I have to say that the total of canings with no male present other than the unfortunate recipient does not seem very large. It is not of course possible to say from the above what percentage of canings were administered by female staff members alone, but presumably it would be substantially less than the 18% total for canings by female staff. It would also appear that only about 1% of canings involve a boy being caned by a female with a female witness and no other male present.

Yes, that's a very small number - but it's not true that the figure for canings administered by a female staff member with no witnesses present, would be much less than the 18% total. Appeals are rare, so witnesses are quite rare.

Boys don't appeal often - mainly because if there are real grounds for appeal, in most cases, the decision to cane won't have been taken.

The risk in question being my suggestion that some lads caned by females with only female witnesses might find themselves influenced towards seeking to repeat the experience in a fetishistic manner in later life. I have to agree with you that this risk cannot readily be quantified. However at present I fear I have to reserve judgement on how much of a risk it constitutes.

Let us take the situation before 'equal opportunities' became a factor in the apportioning of duties between male and female staff in schools using corporal punishment, specifically caning on the bottom. In a mixed school I think that much over the age of 12 or so the norm would have been for female staff to punish girls and male staff to punish boys. There might be odd exceptions, but by the age of 15 or 16 I think these would have been fairly unusual and only dictated by special circumstances, your own caning of girl pupils from your sister school for instance. In single sex schools I would again suggest that over the age of 12 or so punishment would virtually always be by the same sex, even where both sexes were represented on the staff.

With the exception of substituting '14' for '12', I'd agree with this. Even for 12 and 13 year olds, there'd be some truth to it, but nowhere near as much as for 14+. This may reflect differences in structure between Australian schools and those elsewhere - but in the era when corporal punishment was much more common, pre-Equal Opportunities, most independent schools here tended to have a structure where 14 was the watershed age break (this has changed to 12 in many cases - including in my school - more recently, as we've found it convenient to move closer to the dominant state school model on this point).

Contrast this with the situation dictated by equal opportunities legislation in your own school. Of boys caned 18% are caned by females, and in 22% of canings there is at least one female present, either administering the caning or as a witness. We have not touched on the age profile of boys caned by female staff, but I assume that while the majority of them are likely to be at the junior end of the school it can and does happen that senior boys, up to and including sixth formers, are caned by female staff, possibly with no other male present.

Actually, the age profile of boys caned by female staff isn't dictated by age in the way you might expect (with junior boys predominating). Boys are most likely to be caned by myself, their form 'master' or deputy form 'master'. Only a relatively small number of staff are currently authorised to cane, and most of those are staff occupying positions like that.

Currently two of the twelve FM or DFM roles are held by female staff - the Second and Fourth Forms have Form Mistresses. And most of the boys who find themselves caned by female staff are consequently in one of those two forms - average age 13 and 15. One is considered Junior School, one is considered Senior School.

There is nothing to prevent a boy being caned by another Form's FM or DFM - and it does happen sometimes - but it's less common than being punished by their own. No Sixth Former in the past year has been caned by a woman. One Fifth Former was - by the Second Form Mistress. I was present as a witness in that case because he made a failed appeal to me. The reason she caned him is because she's his English Literature teacher and he hadn't done his Lit homework.

A couple of Sixth Formers were caned by women last year - one by the Second Form Mistress, one by the Matron (she rarely canes, but she can).

I have to say that this worries me somewhat. I think that a boy in his teens being required to bend over and be caned by a female carries very much the same connotations as a girl of similar age being caned in the same way by a male. You have experience of the latter, and you, very reasonably in my opinion, admitted to feeling some disquiet at the situation. Do your female staff not admit to similar disquiet at caning older boys?

No, but I haven't asked, and I wouldn't. It wouldn't be appropriate for me to make any such suggestion.

Yes, there are some similar connotations - but there's also some considerable differences. Statistically - well, to go to extremes, statistically men are much more likely to sexually predate on young females, than women are on young males. While that's on a completely different plane from whether or not somebody is affected by administering corporal punishment, it does point to the fact that there are gender differences when it comes to sexual desire and expression. It's reasonable to conclude in general that there's a difference operating here.

More to the point though - and you've touched on this a little later in your message. At the time I caned female pupils, I was still a relatively young man. And the girls involved were just old enough that while I acted completely professionally towards them, I didn't quite see them as children anymore. I was a young man, they were (very) young women.

Today, children of that age - well, I'm much older and I most definitely see them as still being children. In fact, it's hard to see some of my young staff as adults at this point! I don't believe that if the same situation arose today, I'd have the same reaction. They are children, and I don't see them as anything but that anymore.

When you're still active in the dating and nightclub scene, things are a bit different - when you spend your weekends at the same venues as 18 and 19 year old girls (many of whom are after an older man), you see 16 year olds differently than you do once you hit middle age. At least that's how it worked for me - and I think works for most.

Regrettably, in the case of boys being caned by females I think it is also necessary to consider another doubtless contentious but nonetheless, in my opinion at least, significant factor. I doubt that a girl being caned by a male teacher would be overly influenced in her response to the experience by the age or appearance of the person caning her. I am not sure though that this would be the case with young males. It may be that your female teachers who carry out canings are all elderly dragons. If however any of them are young and attractive I think there is an increased risk of at least some of the boys they cane regarding the experience as stimulating rather than punitive!

I wouldn't call them 'elderly dragons' (for fear they'd breathe fire at me) but today, we only authorise fairly senior members of staff to use the cane - unlike in my younger days when it was unusual not to be authorised in many independent schools (including my own - in my first couple of years of teaching, I was caning boys who were my near contemporaries) - and seniority is strongly correlated with experience which is correlated with age. We're talking women of mature years - easily old enough to be these boys mothers. At least technically, old enough to be their grandmothers. They are also - while, not unattractive - rather maternal figures in their appearance and manner. And I am fairly sure they see the boys as boys - as children, more or less.

I think a lot of the boys like them a lot - but not as figures of fantasy, but as rather reassuring pseudo-mother figures.

I might think twice about authorising a woman who I thought the boys were likely to see as particularly attractive - although assuming she was qualified and the position she occupied called for it, I'd have no grounds to refuse her. But to that extent, I do acknowledge that there is validity to the concerns you raise.

I'll reserve my judgement. You have the practical experience and the Psychology qualifications to back it up, I have the gut feeling. On the face of it, no contest, and that may well be the outcome. I hope very much that it is. I have always considered that, for boys at least, corporal punishment correctly regulated and controlled is more likely to do good than harm. You have the necessary regulation and control, but in my opinion the advent of equal opportunities legislation has introduced a skewing factor whose outcome is not readily predictable. I fully accept that your actions have been and are determined by what your experience tells you is the best outcome for your pupils given the prevailing circumstances and nothing I write is intended to suggest otherwise.

I agree that the equal opportunities laws do create potential problems. But we still have to work within them, and I believe the problems are minor.

Australia's Equal Opportunity laws do allow for exemptions concerning certain positions in schools (ie, if a position requires supervision of children while changing or showering as a routine part of its role), but these are clearly defined, and none of them apply in this case (at least not in the school proper - we probably do have an exemption that applies in the boarding house specifically). I, personally, wish they did.

I also should make it clear that while I am a psychologist, this type of issue is not my area of specialty. I think I understand it pretty well, but my area of greatest expertise is educational psychology, not sexual.

It would be interesting to know more about the age profile of boys caned by female staff. This cannot be readily assessed by an outsider from available information, although sufficient is available to put a little flesh on some of my concerns. It may be that you already have a good idea of this profile and that it belies my fears. I hope you will have time to respond to what I greatly regret is a very long post.

I've mentioned the profile a bit above. The only thing I would add to that - teachers are supposed to be mindful of the effects of their actions on the boys we deal with. I would definitely believe it's safe to assume no teacher would cane a student they believed to be sexually attracted to them. I would also feel it unlikely they would do so if they believed a boy was likely to be unusually embarassed by the situation. Female staff have referred senior boys to me they could have caned themselves in the past, and I do know of one case where the teacher made that decision because she felt the boy involved had issues about taking orders from a woman that had exacerbated his behaviour. His attitude was totally unacceptable, but she was aware that it would have been counterproductive for her to deal with it in that particular case.

 
 
Another_Lurker

Re: punishment witnessed by females

December 17 2008, 4:26 AM 

Thank you Doctor Dominum. As always, a most comprehensive and interesting reply.

Initially I'm afraid I have an apology to offer to you. Stricken by doubts that I might have overstated my case somewhat in my previous posting I carried out an analysis of the 2008 RunList to determine the age (or at least the Form) of boys caned and who had caned them.

I had to do some guessing at the sex of the persons doing the caning, but I knew the 2nd Form Mistress was female and Matron was a fairly safe bet. In the event I guessed (wrongly) at the 1st FM and 1st DFM and 2nd DFM being the other females and by coincidence that combination made up the 18% figure you had given for canings by female staff. On that basis I came to the conclusion that only one boy from the 5th Form upwards had been caned by a female member of staff, which you confirm in your posting. In the event my incorrectly guessed genders made no difference as none of male staff involved had caned boys above the 2nd Form and the 3rd FM appears only to have caned boys from the 3rd Form.

Clearly one boy, around 0.26% of canings, did not give a great deal of support to my case regarding possible adverse effects on older boys, and I hoped to post to this effect in time to save you responding to me. I did the analysis whilst in transit and regrettably this is the first chance I've have had to post since then. As you have already responded in cosiderable detail I hope that you will accept my apology for the additional work involved.

I'm perfectly happy to discuss it here, and I have no objection to references (or even brief quotes of myself) from the schoolcp forum being brought up here in they are of relevance. As people retain copyright on e-mails, I would be unhappy if somebody was quoting other members of that forum here without permission, and I would prefer long quotes from myself not appear here either because of the risk of context being lost, but certainly discussing information from that forum is absolutely fine if it adds to discussion.

A most commendable attitude, and one for which I am thankful as it has enabled some most interesting discussion.

I would say that (given my constant attempts to encourage most on-topic posting on my forum) it might be interesting if issues raised here, were also raised there on occasion - but that's another issue.

I accept your point completely. I would like to 'pluck up courage' (for want of a better term) to post on your Forum. My problem is that I still can't quite assess the audience there, whereas here I feel a little more confident in the reception I'll get because most people who know I'll bore them will simply see the name and skip straight to the next posting!

For the remainder of this post when quoting previous material I've put my own contributions in blue.

Let us take the situation before 'equal opportunities' became a factor in the apportioning of duties between male and female staff in schools using corporal punishment, specifically caning on the bottom.........In single sex schools I would again suggest that over the age of 12 or so punishment would virtually always be by the same sex, even where both sexes were represented on the staff.

With the exception of substituting '14' for '12', I'd agree with this. Even for 12 and 13 year olds, there'd be some truth to it, but nowhere near as much as for 14+. This may reflect differences in structure between Australian schools and those elsewhere - but in the era when corporal punishment was much more common, pre-Equal Opportunities, most independent schools here tended to have a structure where 14 was the watershed age break (this has changed to 12 in many cases - including in my school - more recently, as we've found it convenient to move closer to the dominant state school model on this point).

You are of course correct, 14 is more appropriate for the situation in the period I postulated. I was overlooking how long 'equal opportunities' have been a factor in the equation and (here in the UK at least) how long has elapsed since the abolition of school CP. In effect I was erroneously mapping current school practices onto a much earlier situation.

Boys are most likely to be caned by myself, their form 'master' or deputy form 'master'.

Whilst not relevant to this discussion I noted that for 2008 at least there was a very striking symmetry in the division of duties in this respect, especially as regards the canings administered and, to a lesser extent, the total number of strokes delivered. My figures may be a little in error though as I couldn't locate my software to turn the PDF into a spreadsheet and thus had to rely on visual acuity and manual analysis. I'm still fairly good at the latter, but the former is a little diminished these days! happy.gif

Do your female staff not admit to similar disquiet at caning older boys?

No, but I haven't asked, and I wouldn't. It wouldn't be appropriate for me to make any such suggestion.

I certainly would not expect you, or indeed anyone else, male or female, in a position of authority to ask such a question directly. Sometimes though this sort of information becomes manifest by indirect routes.

I have to say that this worries me somewhat. I think that a boy in his teens being required to bend over and be caned by a female carries very much the same connotations as a girl of similar age being caned in the same way by a male.

Yes, there are some similar connotations - but there's also some considerable differences. Statistically - well, to go to extremes, statistically men are much more likely to sexually predate on young females, than women are on young males. While that's on a completely different plane from whether or not somebody is affected by administering corporal punishment, it does point to the fact that there are gender differences when it comes to sexual desire and expression. It's reasonable to conclude in general that there's a difference operating here.

I have noted that in recent years the number of female teachers found to be in inappropriate sexual relationships with male pupils seems to be rising both here in the UK and in the US. Of course it may be that such cases have always existed but are more openly reported now. Alternatively it may be an unintended consequence of 'equal opportunity'! Regardless of this I agree with your assessment because in the case of the administration of corporal punishment the risk is assault rather than amorous overtures. In this respect I think that the majority of people would perceive the situation of a male punishing a female as posing much the greater risk.

At the time I caned female pupils, I was still a relatively young man. And the girls involved were just old enough that while I acted completely professionally towards them, I didn't quite see them as children anymore. I was a young man, they were (very) young women.

Today, children of that age - well, I'm much older and I most definitely see them as still being children. In fact, it's hard to see some of my young staff as adults at this point! I don't believe that if the same situation arose today, I'd have the same reaction. They are children, and I don't see them as anything but that anymore.


Ah, most certainly one of the consequences of greater age and greater wisdom! I am of an age with you, and I find myself in much the same situation. Recently, observing the somewhat flamboyant behaviour of some (probably) teenaged schoolgirls showing off to some boys I found myself saying to a companion "they can't help it, they're only babies"! And as for the age of our policemen ........... happy.gif

It may be that your female teachers who carry out canings are all elderly dragons. If however any of them are young and attractive I think there is an increased risk of at least some of the boys they cane regarding the experience as stimulating rather than punitive!

I wouldn't call them 'elderly dragons' (for fear they'd breathe fire at me) but today, we only authorise fairly senior members of staff to use the cane ......... We're talking women of mature years - easily old enough to be these boys mothers. At least technically, old enough to be their grandmothers. They are also - while, not unattractive - rather maternal figures in their appearance and manner. And I am fairly sure they see the boys as boys - as children, more or less.

Slim though the chances are that any of your female staff read this estimable Forum, had I been in your position I would most probably have taken the coward's way out and ducked that question! However, your reply does remove my remaining doubts over the situation of female staff caning boys.

I would definitely believe it's safe to assume no teacher would cane a student they believed to be sexually attracted to them. I would also feel it unlikely they would do so if they believed a boy was likely to be unusually embarassed by the situation.

I have to say that my previous concerns did not encompass embarassment of the boy being caned but rather the opposite. Nearly all punishment involves some embarassment, by virtue of having sinned and been caught! If a boy finds it slightly more embarassing to have his bottom beaten by a female authority figure old enough to be his Mum than by a male IMHO it isn't going to do him any great harm. It may even make the message conveyed by the beating stick a little better!

Female staff have referred senior boys to me they could have caned themselves in the past, and I do know of one case where the teacher made that decision because she felt the boy involved had issues about taking orders from a woman that had exacerbated his behaviour. His attitude was totally unacceptable, but she was aware that it would have been counterproductive for her to deal with it in that particular case.

I'm afraid I have no sympathy with the lad involved, even to the point of thinking it might have been better if the teacher involved had attempted to carry out the caning. If he had refused the punishment that doubtless would have precipitated special procedures. In the course of those someone might well have pointed out to him that in later life he might well encounter female managers in his employment. They might also have informed him that in those circumstances refusal to take orders from a woman would possibly have much more severe consequences for himself (and for the family he might by then have) than the temporary pain and minor embarassment of a caning!

 
 
Another_Lurker

Re: punishment witnessed by females

December 17 2008, 4:48 AM 

Concentrate, Another_Lurker, concentrate, or someone might suggest an appointment with either the 2nd or 4th Form Mistress! happy.gif At the end the 3rd paragraph of my posting above

my incorrectly guessed genders made no difference as none of male staff involved had caned boys above the 2nd Form and the 3rd FM appears only to have caned boys from the 3rd Form.

should read

my incorrectly guessed genders made no difference as none of male staff involved had caned boys above the 2nd Form and the 4th Form Mistress appears only to have caned boys from the 4th Form or below.

 
 
Doctor Dominum

Re: punishment witnessed by females

December 18 2008, 9:12 AM 

Clearly one boy, around 0.26% of canings, did not give a great deal of support to my case regarding possible adverse effects on older boys, and I hoped to post to this effect in time to save you responding to me. I did the analysis whilst in transit and regrettably this is the first chance I've have had to post since then. As you have already responded in cosiderable detail I hope that you will accept my apology for the additional work involved.

Please don't worry about it - not at this time of year. I'm in what might be called a 'phony work' situation at the moment - I still need to be working to deal with some matters, but I haven't actually got a great deal to do because all the students are already on their Christmas holidays. To some extent, I'm often looking for some way to look busy.

You are of course correct, 14 is more appropriate for the situation in the period I postulated. I was overlooking how long 'equal opportunities' have been a factor in the equation and (here in the UK at least) how long has elapsed since the abolition of school CP. In effect I was erroneously mapping current school practices onto a much earlier situation.



Just to create some context, equal opportunity has been something we've had to take very seriously since the mid 1980s. We were moving towards greater emphasis on this prior to that, but that's when the first laws came in and changed everything - I think we were doing a reasonable job on most equity matters by the mid 1970s (equal pay, etc) but until the passing of the EO Act, we were still easily able to make any exceptions we felt commonsense demanded.

Whilst not relevant to this discussion I noted that for 2008 at least there was a very striking symmetry in the division of duties in this respect, especially as regards the canings administered and, to a lesser extent, the total number of strokes delivered. My figures may be a little in error though as I couldn't locate my software to turn the PDF into a spreadsheet and thus had to rely on visual acuity and manual analysis. I'm still fairly good at the latter, but the former is a little diminished these days!

Some of the data is proven to be surprisingly uniform - so much so that I am waiting for somebody to claim it is so uniform, it must be fake! I assure everybody that I know statistics well enough (you cannot get a PhD in the modern world without total immersion in it) that I would never create fake data that looked fake.

(the biggest thing I've noticed so far is that the third, fourth, fifth, and sixth DFMs all seem to have handed out exactly the same number of canings - the odds of that happening are probably in the realm of 1 in 500 or 1 in 1000 (I could work out more exact odds but it's not something I'm going to spend much time on). Unlikely - but it's how it's turned out this year.

We do make some effort to ensure consistency of approach, and policies had to that - but I am surprised we'd wind up that close on any data point.

I certainly would not expect you, or indeed anyone else, male or female, in a position of authority to ask such a question directly. Sometimes though this sort of information becomes manifest by indirect routes.

Yes, it could - but it hasn't.

I have noted that in recent years the number of female teachers found to be in inappropriate sexual relationships with male pupils seems to be rising both here in the UK and in the US. Of course it may be that such cases have always existed but are more openly reported now. Alternatively it may be an unintended consequence of 'equal opportunity'! Regardless of this I agree with your assessment because in the case of the administration of corporal punishment the risk is assault rather than amorous overtures. In this respect I think that the majority of people would perceive the situation of a male punishing a female as posing much the greater risk.

We're seeing the same pattern of increased sexual misconduct involving boys by female teachers here as well - but it's still a much smaller number of cases than the opposite scenario (which is, fortunately, not common but it does happen.)

Ah, most certainly one of the consequences of greater age and greater wisdom! I am of an age with you, and I find myself in much the same situation. Recently, observing the somewhat flamboyant behaviour of some (probably) teenaged schoolgirls showing off to some boys I found myself saying to a companion "they can't help it, they're only babies"! And as for the age of our policemen ...........

I actually came across one of the junior staff I was thinking of when writing my earlier message, today. He's 25 and he's particularly gifted as a teacher for that age. He's been assigned a shared office for next year and he was in today moving in books to fill up his new bookshelves.

His mother was there helping him. And berating him in pure maternal fashion because she'd found he had left a half drunk coffee cup on his desk since last Wednesday.

He's a very competent teacher - does a marvellous job. But - well, he is still a kid. By no means are all 25 year olds still at that stage, but he is. And when I still see 25 year olds that way, there's no real danger of me seeing those who are still legally seen as children as such.

Slim though the chances are that any of your female staff read this estimable Forum, had I been in your position I would most probably have taken the coward's way out and ducked that question! However, your reply does remove my remaining doubts over the situation of female staff caning boys.

I have to say that my previous concerns did not encompass embarassment of the boy being caned but rather the opposite. Nearly all punishment involves some embarassment, by virtue of having sinned and been caught! If a boy finds it slightly more embarassing to have his bottom beaten by a female authority figure old enough to be his Mum than by a male IMHO it isn't going to do him any great harm. It may even make the message conveyed by the beating stick a little better!

Embarassment is part of corporal punishment in many cases - and it does add to its effect. But only up to a point. It's naturally embarassing enough, without any need to do anything to increase that.

Yes, some boys are probably a bit more embarassed by being caned by a woman than by a man and I don't think that's a problem - but I used the term 'unusually embarassed' because if it goes beyond what is normal, it's likely to start to be counterproductive.

I'm afraid I have no sympathy with the lad involved, even to the point of thinking it might have been better if the teacher involved had attempted to carry out the caning. If he had refused the punishment that doubtless would have precipitated special procedures. In the course of those someone might well have pointed out to him that in later life he might well encounter female managers in his employment. They might also have informed him that in those circumstances refusal to take orders from a woman would possibly have much more severe consequences for himself (and for the family he might by then have) than the temporary pain and minor embarassment of a caning!

Making these determinations is not an exact science - and there are certainly cases where I think what you describe would be a perfectly valid approach. If the problem is relatively mild - a boy who is simply not treating female members of staff with the same respect he gives to male members of staff, then, yes, he might benefit by being forced to accept punishment from her.

But if the problem is more severe, that means a different approach may be called for, and in this case I think it was. This boy's attitude problem was fairly extreme.

His view of women was offensive, wrong headed, and bordered on the repulsive.

But he was a sixteen year old boy - which means he had time to change. And it's our job to do our best to make sure he does.

If she'd caned him, I'm pretty sure he would have submitted. He would have faced a very real chance of expulsion if he hadn't and he wasn't stupid in that way. But he would have resented what had happened to him, and his resentment of women would have increased.

I caned him and I caned him severely. And I also made sure that I left him with absolutely no doubt that I found his attitude utterly repugnant and completely unacceptable. Now, he liked me - respected me. I think driving home to him how repulsive a man he respected found his attitudes, coupled with a clear message that if he didn't work to change them, life would be very unpleasant - was the approach most likely to work with him.

By the time he left us, his attitude had improved a great deal. And that's the goal.


 
 
Another_Lurker

Re: punishment witnessed by females

December 19 2008, 3:42 AM 

Doctor Dominum, once again my thanks for a comprehensive reply and for accepting my delayed posting with such good grace.

Please don't worry about it - not at this time of year. I'm in what might be called a 'phony work' situation at the moment - I still need to be working to deal with some matters, but I haven't actually got a great deal to do because all the students are already on their Christmas holidays. To some extent, I'm often looking for some way to look busy.

A situation known to us all, but not, I imagine, one that you have to endure very often!

Just to create some context, equal opportunity has been something we've had to take very seriously since the mid 1980s. We were moving towards greater emphasis on this prior to that, but that's when the first laws came in and changed everything - I think we were doing a reasonable job on most equity matters by the mid 1970s (equal pay, etc) but until the passing of the EO Act, we were still easily able to make any exceptions we felt commonsense demanded.

Within the context of the above, and noting that in an earlier post in this thread you said

At my own school, we didn't have many female staff in the early part of my career, but it's increased over time and there's always been an assumption that female staff members should be expected to act in much the same way as male staff members, that their gender should be a factor in the performance of their duties only in very exceptional circumstances.

I wonder, within your time at the school, was it always the case that senior and sufficiently experienced female staff, if in the appropriate posts, would carry out canings if they were willing to, or was there a specific onset of caning by female staff dictated some aspect of legislation post the mid 1980s? If there was a sudden transition to canings by female staff was it, however briefly, anything of a cause célèbre with the boys, or, indeed, the male staff?

Whilst not relevant to this discussion I noted that for 2008 at least there was a very striking symmetry in the division of duties in this respect, especially as regards the canings administered

Some of the data is proven to be surprisingly uniform - so much so that I am waiting for somebody to claim it is so uniform, it must be fake! I assure everybody that I know statistics well enough (you cannot get a PhD in the modern world without total immersion in it) that I would never create fake data that looked fake.

The data does not look fake to me. If had the slightest suspicions in that direction I would not have spent any time analysing it, for the simple reason that I hate PDF files with a deep and abiding hatred and working with them is anathema to me! This same dislike of PDF files probably made me somewhat more error prone than usual, especially as my analysis was a manual 'jot it down and tot it up' one.

The 'very striking symmetry' I referred to was that my (as noted, possibly error prone) analysis showed an exact balance of canings between yourself and the rest of the staff, male or female, who administered such punishments. I made it 190 canings administered by you over the 2008 year and the same total by the rest of the staff combined, of which the two Form Mistresses and Matron administered 69.

As might be expected, since you are presumably dealing with a large proportion of the more serious cases, I counted more strokes in your total, 757, an average of 3·98 strokes per caning, as against 705 strokes from the rest of the staff, an average of 3·71 strokes per caning.

Given that Form Masters and Mistresses predominantly cane boys from their own Forms, their average number of strokes per caning appears, as might be expected, to rise steadily up to the 5th Form, though it falls back slightly for the 6th Form Master whose canings included more boys from other forms than the average, all inevitably younger than his owm pupils.

As we've noted previously, only one boy above the 4th Form seems to have managed to get himself caned by a female, and that only 2 strokes, rendering my initial worries completely unfounded. The female teachers certainly don't seem to err on the side of leniency though, I made it 14 six stroke and 2 five stroke canings between them!

We're seeing the same pattern of increased sexual misconduct involving boys by female teachers here as well - but it's still a much smaller number of cases than the opposite scenario (which is, fortunately, not common but it does happen.)

It may possibly be a worldwide trend then, but I still wonder if some of it may simply be a greater readiness to report it.

His mother was there helping him. And berating him in pure maternal fashion because she'd found he had left a half drunk coffee cup on his desk since last Wednesday.

I've known men much older than 25 who've had that problem. Some mothers can't resist taking charge even if their son is in his late 50s and running a large multi-national corporation!

Embarassment is part of corporal punishment in many cases - and it does add to its effect. But only up to a point. It's naturally embarassing enough, without any need to do anything to increase that.

Yes, some boys are probably a bit more embarassed by being caned by a woman than by a man and I don't think that's a problem - but I used the term 'unusually embarassed' because if it goes beyond what is normal, it's likely to start to be counterproductive.


I certainly take your point. I guess your female staff who cane necessarily become attuned to the signals which might indicate that the embarassment involved for a particular boy would be likely to significantly exceed the norm.

As a possible counter-balance to any slight additional embarassment for a boy involved in being caned by a female, do you think that female staff might cane less hard than male staff? Clearly, unless some sort of calibrated machine was in use there can be no such thing as a 'standard' cane stroke, it's going to depend on the cane and the caner. Are standard canes used throughout the school, and is it possible to standardise the technique in such a way that x strokes should be pretty much the same sort of ordeal whoever administers it? Alternatively, within the predetermined number of strokes, does every teacher simply vary the intensity of the caning according to their view of the offence and the boy?

With regard to the boy whom one of the female staff referred to you because she felt that his attitude to women would not allow her to cane him without detrimental effects you say:

By the time he left us, his attitude had improved a great deal. And that's the goal.

For his sake I'm very pleased to hear that. As I said in my previous posting I don't have any sympathy for his attitude and, unless he intended to spend his life working with his brawn rather than his brain, over here he would almost certainly encounter a woman manager at some stage in most careers. Is the situation similar in Australia?

 
 
Doctor Dominum

Re: punishment witnessed by females

December 19 2008, 9:06 AM 

I wonder, within your time at the school, was it always the case that senior and sufficiently experienced female staff, if in the appropriate posts, would carry out canings if they were willing to, or was there a specific onset of caning by female staff dictated some aspect of legislation post the mid 1980s? If there was a sudden transition to canings by female staff was it, however briefly, anything of a cause célèbre with the boys, or, indeed, the male staff?

Until quite recently, all but the most junior and inexperienced teaching staff were authorised to administer corporal punishment - go back even further into the depths of history (such as when I started) even brand new, newly qualified staff were.

Female teaching staff were very uncommon in the 1960s, and relatively uncommon even through to the late 1970s, but when they were employed, most of them were entitled to use corporal punishment and a few did use it. But for the most part, most of our female staff either didn't use it, or used it so rarely that I don't really think it figured heavily in the thinking of the boys or anybody else. When corporal punishment was used by female staff, it tended to be in the junior part of the school, and was often of a less severe form than caning.

Things changed a bit in the early to mid 1980s, about the same time that Equal Opportunities legislation began to come in. It became significantly more common than it had before (though still not all that common) for female staff to cane. I think the direct effect of the EO legislation was minor. It probably had some effect - because it made it clear that women who aspired to leadership positions in the school could now reasonably expect to reach them if they showed themselves deserving, and when you are trying to prove yourself in a dominantly male culture, it might be wise to downplay differences in behaviour caused by gender. It also made it harder for female staff to routinely expect male staff to carry out unpleasant duties in their stead. But I don't think that was a large influence - except on one point that I'll outline a little further below.

The change, I think, came from that fact that, coincidentally, this was also the period in which we began serious revision of our policies on corporal punishment. Partly that was because of me - strange as it may seem to some people, back then my views on corporal punishment were seen as fairly progressive. I'd just become Deputy Headmaster and that put me in the position of being able to spearhead real change in our policies - beginning with ensuring that all corporal punishment was properly recorded (this had been an official requirement for a long time - but was routinely ignored by many staff. We changed that), introducing concepts such as the red list and then the blue list, creation of appeals processes - in essence, we put a lot more controls into place to ensure that corporal punishment was not used properly.

This made some staff more willing to use it, at least occasionally. Teachers who were not opposed to corporal punishment, but who had been opposed to the way it was being used, some of them started to use it more once we had more safeguards in place. This included some of the female staff, who as a group, had always tended to be less supportive of corporal punishment than male staff in general.

We also got clearer legal guidance on precisely where a teacher's authority came from in private schools around the same time this was all happening. Traditionally in Australia, a teacher's authority came from the doctrine in loco parentis - a teacher was considered to be acting in the place of a parent, and was therefore (in broad terms, at least) given the same authority over a child as a parent had.

This doctrine started to come into question during the 1960s through a number of court cases. Most of those court cases involved government schools and they limited the doctrine of in loco parentis. It was not initially clear whether they limited it only for government schools, or for all schools, and that made things pretty complicated over a number of issues. By the 1980s, it was being clarified - in loco parentis was (and remains) largely in effect when it comes to private schools, even though it has been superseded in state schools. The resurgence of the concept of in loco parentis, I think, may have also empowered some female teachers in the performance of their duties in an increasingly gender-aware society - until it was clarified, I think some female teachers in male schools (and probably some male teachers in female schools) became particularly wary about the way they acted towards students of the opposite gender. Once it became clear again, that we were all in loco parentis, that diminished a bit - while people might be nervous about a random female striking a boy, most people would accept that a mother had that right - and so a teacher acting in the role of a parent was on much stronger ground. We accept behaviours from parents and their legitimate substitutes that we wouldn't accept otherwise.

How did the boys react to the increase in caning by female staff? With some disquiet, but it wasn't specifically over that issue, really. Boys reacted nervously to a lot of the changes in the way the school was structured at that time. Female staff were appointed as tutors in the tutor group system - that one caused a bit of an uproar because a boys tutor was the person a boy was supposed to go to first with problems he wanted adult help with - and when you are dealing with adolescents, some of those matters are related to issues like puberty and sexuality - not all that many, really, but there were complaints.

The data does not look fake to me. If had the slightest suspicions in that direction I would not have spent any time analysing it, for the simple reason that I hate PDF files with a deep and abiding hatred and working with them is anathema to me! This same dislike of PDF files probably made me somewhat more error prone than usual, especially as my analysis was a manual 'jot it down and tot it up' one.

I didn't think you were suggesting the data was fake - just commenting on a point of coincidence I'd noticed, and reflecting on the issues it might cause.

The 'very striking symmetry' I referred to was that my (as noted, possibly error prone) analysis showed an exact balance of canings between yourself and the rest of the staff, male or female, who administered such punishments. I made it 190 canings administered by you over the 2008 year and the same total by the rest of the staff combined, of which the two Form Mistresses and Matron administered 69.

You're very close, but it's not quite exact. I administered 49.87% of canings last year, rather than 50%.

As might be expected, since you are presumably dealing with a large proportion of the more serious cases, I counted more strokes in your total, 757, an average of 3·98 strokes per caning, as against 705 strokes from the rest of the staff, an average of 3·71 strokes per caning.

I haven't done the numbers yet, myself, but those figures seem to be in the ballpark.

Given that Form Masters and Mistresses predominantly cane boys from their own Forms, their average number of strokes per caning appears, as might be expected, to rise steadily up to the 5th Form, though it falls back slightly for the 6th Form Master whose canings included more boys from other forms than the average, all inevitably younger than his owm pupils.

The Sixth Form Master is the senior Form Master (senior in terms of time in office) and generally acts in my role when I am absent from the school. He is the most likely candidate to serve as my successor in the Deputy Headmaster's role from 2010. This explains why he is more likely to find himself dealing with boys outside his own form (although he really dislikes caning younger boys and will avoid it if he can find any reasonable excuse).

As we've noted previously, only one boy above the 4th Form seems to have managed to get himself caned by a female, and that only 2 strokes, rendering my initial worries completely unfounded. The female teachers certainly don't seem to err on the side of leniency though, I made it 14 six stroke and 2 five stroke canings between them!

When they cane, they do it properly. As all authorised staff are supposed to.

It may possibly be a worldwide trend then, but I still wonder if some of it may simply be a greater readiness to report it.

Some of it certainly. There's also been some tendency in the past not to regard it as worth worrying about - a lot of people hear about a 14 year old boy sleeping with his female teacher, and think he's been really lucky, rather than having been a victim.

I certainly take your point. I guess your female staff who cane necessarily become attuned to the signals which might indicate that the embarassment involved for a particular boy would be likely to significantly exceed the norm.

I think so, yes.

As a possible counter-balance to any slight additional embarassment for a boy involved in being caned by a female, do you think that female staff might cane less hard than male staff? Clearly, unless some sort of calibrated machine was in use there can be no such thing as a 'standard' cane stroke, it's going to depend on the cane and the caner. Are standard canes used throughout the school, and is it possible to standardise the technique in such a way that x strokes should be pretty much the same sort of ordeal whoever administers it? Alternatively, within the predetermined number of strokes, does every teacher simply vary the intensity of the caning according to their view of the offence and the boy?

We do use a standard model of cane, but, of course, we are dealing with a natural product and standardised doesn't mean identical.

We make some effort to ensure canes are used with similar force, but we don't obsess about it, and yes, it's quite possible that some staff members cane less severely than others. Probably, actually - although I'm not sure we can say how much that is linked to gender. We don't use a great deal of strength.

Theoretically most canings should be of similar intensity when delivered by the same teacher - but teachers are perfectly at liberty to vary this, and I think most will sometimes go easy on a boy (although he should not really be aware of that) and some will work to increase the severity on occasion - I certainly still hand out six of the best on occasion, and that's different from just six.

For his sake I'm very pleased to hear that. As I said in my previous posting I don't have any sympathy for his attitude and, unless he intended to spend his life working with his brawn rather than his brain, over here he would almost certainly encounter a woman manager at some stage in most careers. Is the situation similar in Australia?

Definitely - while there are still some glass ceiling issues in Australia for women, there are plenty of women in most occupations in senior roles. Anybody entering the workforce today should expect that at least sometimes they will be subordinate to female supervisory staff.

 
 
Another_Lurker

Re: punishment witnessed by females

December 20 2008, 12:03 AM 

Doctor Dominum, I am grateful to you for taking so much time to deal with the many questions I have raised. Your posting above gives a fascinating insight into the changing situation in your school as the 'equal opportunities' situation developed over the years. Indeed, this has been a most interesting discussion overall for me, and I hope that we shall have similar exchanges in the future. I won't prolong the present one further though, other than a quick note on statistics.

You're very close, but it's not quite exact. I administered 49.87% of canings last year, rather than 50%.

My apologies for this error. I did attempt a quick check of my figure for total canings and your canings prior to my post to make sure I hadn't missed any and had the breakdown correct. Annoyingly I managed to bracket the figures I already had in both cases, and thus stayed with my original totals. In fact it would appear that one of my recounts was correct.

As noted previously I regard PDFs as the invention of the devil and hate working with them. IMHO, other than the magnificent PhotoShop, Adobe's influence on personal computing has been a malign one, the more so now they've added the abhorrent Flash to their stable! So seldom do I use PDFs that the software I rely on to convert them to something amenable to automatic analysis has gone AWOL. One has to at least try to excuse one's failures! happy.gif

 
 
mimi

Re: punishment witnessed by females

December 24 2008, 2:03 PM 

Personally If I was running a great big school ( which I am not) and I had teachers wasting my valuable time by sending pupils to me for CP I would be caning the teachers for their inability to run their own classrooms corectly.
I mean to say. Ods blood and all that, imagine 50 teachers sending misbehaving brats back and forth will nilly, what nonsence.
At least My perverted sadistic headmaster had the decency to patrol the corridors, EVERY lesson to cane any poor sod standing outside ( wether they had done anything wrong or not no trial etc just sadistic unneccesary punishment )showed some sort of meeting halfway itis.
Unless of course there was some kind of kudos in supplying cane bait for the headmaster.
And I am someone who believes in the sanction of CP!

 
 
Doctor Dominum

Re: punishment witnessed by females

December 24 2008, 11:18 PM 

Personally If I was running a great big school ( which I am not) and I had teachers wasting my valuable time by sending pupils to me for CP I would be caning the teachers for their inability to run their own classrooms corectly.

Actually my colleagues generally do a very good job running their own classrooms - we look for excellent classroom management skills when we are selecting teachers. But our school has developed disciplinary policies which require certain matters to be dealt with by more senior (and experienced) staff and with a level of attention to detail that goes beyond what can normally be done in the classroom. It's not a 'waste of our valuable time' because it's built into our duties - as Deputy Headmaster I only have a 0.6 teaching load to allow me time to discharge the other duties (which include special pastoral and disciplinary responsibilities) that are a core part of my job. Form Masters/Mistresses have a 0.8 load at most.

I mean to say. Ods blood and all that, imagine 50 teachers sending misbehaving brats back and forth will nilly, what nonsence.

We have more than one hundred teaching staff, not fifty, but we don't have teachers 'sending misbehaving brats back and forth'.

On a typical day, I might see six or so boys on some sort of formal basis. In around half of those cases, I'll have summoned them to see me, in about half they'll be sent to me. It's quite a low number. Form Masters see more than I do, but they see most of them in non-class time (dealing with absence notes, etc, in the fifteen minutes before First Period, typically).

Misbehaviour is reasonably uncommon but most of it is dealt with by the teacher who observes it (and most is also dealt with without recourse to corporal punishment). Sometimes, though, it's appropriate to take it out of the classroom.

 
 
mimi

Re: punishment witnessed by females

December 25 2008, 2:00 PM 

D D whilst I find your contributions most interesting I was not refering to yourself or your institution.
It was a generalisation.
Despite the self importance felt by many, if not all, those in positions of power the world does not in fact revolve around them, more often its despite of them.

 
 

On the theme

January 2 2009, 3:09 AM 

The cringe that my school had about girls and CP was obvious. They went out of their way to protect girls from seeing it but that was not always possible, given that girls, like boys, have inquiring minds and wills of their own.

We were seperated when not in class, which meant boys ate lunch in their own area - a scene of much boistrousness and testosterone that could involve anything from apple throwing fights to climbing verandah poles. To control this mayhem, one duty teacher carried a blackboard ruler (a long, wide board) under his arm as he patrolled and sent any offenders, not matter how slight, to a classroom to await sanction.

There were no prizes for guessing his intentions and word leaked to the neighbouring girls area with the result that when punishment time came girls were packed at the border carning their necks to get gome glimpse of the action.

Two girls were more bold, broke the rules and entered our area where they took up ringside spots - standing on a seating bench to peer in through the classroom lourvres. It so happened that I got another prized spot right next to the two interlopers and often found their reactions more interesting than the fierce paddling that was taking place inside.

They were quite fascinated and fixated on each scene and followed each offender with their eyes as he waddled away, taking in his reactions to the pain and embarrassment.

It would have been just had these two followed on from the boys for having crossed a strict boundary, but to my knowledge there were no repercussions for them.


 
 
American Way

Re: punishment witnessed by females

January 20 2009, 7:38 PM 

Male teachers rarely paddle girls and girls are paddled less often than boys and middle school children more often than high school students in the USA. To prevent false claims of brutality a witness is usually required. A parental waiver must be signed by a parent or the student will be subjected to corporal punishment, this lessens the likelihood of a suit. A girl usually has a woman present or a right to a woman present. The CBS video is more what likely occurs and gives you a clearer idea to what really happens. The second link is a fictional essay that gives the best description of corporal punishment I have read from a girls point of view. I think this fictional essay in this journal is closer to reality than other postings and not the work of trolls to create titillating scenarios.

http://cbs11tv.com/video/?id=13331@ktvt.dayport.com

kelyannsmith.livejournal.com/11760.html

 
 
Another_Lurker

Re: Re: punishment witnessed by females

January 20 2009, 9:59 PM 

American Way, we've had Miss Lowry's paddlings, including that story, previously in this estimable Forum, here and here.

Painstaking research into the issue by an eminent fellow contributor convinced me then that Ms Lowry's stories were fiction and I am glad to see that you concur with that view.

 
 
American Way

Re: punishment witnessed by females

January 20 2009, 11:15 PM 

I commend Research Assistant 2 for his labors and apologize for not making proper attribution. Considering the topic of this thread, I thought it was relevant and worthy of reposting. After all Megans fiction is based on fact. That indeed was the policy of West Hartnett High School in 1993. Her high school yearbook picture previously posted on her myspace corresponds to her picture on TOPIX. She is as attractive as she was 15 years ago and remains an unclaimed treasure. However, the Network54 forum referenced in your post has been disabled due to a breach of the Network54 User Agreement by the owner of that forum so this information may be of value. I hope her myspace puts to rest the question of whether her account is fictional or not. They are indeed fictional but nonetheless illustrative of corporal punishment as it is administered less and less as more and more school districts ban it. In 2008 they banned it in her school district. The internet does not lack for advocacy groups that oppose corporal punishment. The most inane of them all is below.

www.myspace.com/90116171

www.nopaddle.com

 
 
mimi

Re: punishment witnessed by females

January 21 2009, 12:49 AM 

The forum mentioned has been back for a while complete with some most dubious characters.
A pity that so many pervs inhadit the site when one considers the painstaking research carried out by Paul E who has collated the info on the main page.

 
 
American Way

Re: punishment witnessed by females

January 21 2009, 1:43 AM 

I agree with your characterization of the aforesaid mentioned website. The reference made in the post on Megan Lowry is buried somewhere in the inaccessible archives under the original Spanking Facts & Research dated prior to 1/1/09. I provided the direct myspace link for Megan Lowry to confirm the fictional nature of the essay. That being said, I find her essay on school corporal punishment both enlightening and enjoyable. I highly recommend it. The "New Spanking Facts & Research" is nothing but a depository of family photos or home videos of birthday spankings downloaded by the hour by someone named "cinndunc".

 
 
Another_Lurker

Re: punishment witnessed by females

January 21 2009, 3:56 AM 

Google cinndunc. I trust he isn't trying to live up to the definition in the first hit!

 
 
davidc

punishment witnessed by females

January 21 2009, 7:40 AM 

I am new here , having only just discovered this site.Firstly, it is quite true that the majority of posts on the " New Spanking Facts and Research" are from cinndunc and are as described, but there is a great deal of good stuff from him and others on that site.

To get back to females witnessing punishment. Although there was a great deal of corporal punishment at the junior school I attended, both of boys and girls , I only found out the fascination that girls have for spanking or any form of corporal punishment much later.

At the age of about 13 a group of boys were slippered in front of the class. At break time I overheard some girls talking about this with great excitement, and one girl was imitating the way each boy bent over. One boy hardly bent at all yet another did a full touch your toes bend.The girls were squealing with delight as this girl did her bending over routine.

It was shortly after this that I started to hang around with some girls from an all girls school. One of these girls was always slapping my bottom, and also asked me whether we got caned or slippered, as their school did not have corporal punishment. This lead to me asking her if she would like to be slippered, she agreed and a great deal of fun ensued. She told me she didn't realise how painful it was but still liked to receive it. Happy days!

 
 
Les

Slippered in front of class of girls

January 21 2009, 2:04 PM 

I was frequently slippered in front of a class of girls when I got caught watching them do handstands.

 
 
Alison

spanking

February 5 2009, 7:16 PM 

I remember five boys getting spanked with a gym slipper by the gym master under the guidance of the headmistress
in morning assembly at school back in the eightees when this was common practice.
The entire school was in uproar !

The boys were made to bend over the back of a chair one at a time for six whacks each over their grey shorts.

Whacko that was so much fun.

 
 
Chloe

Caning boys

February 5 2009, 7:24 PM 

Can any of the boys who were caned at school tell us if they thought it did them any good afterwards or stopped them from misbehaving in the future?

I do not believe in corporal punishment.

 
 
Steve M

Re: punishment witnessed by females

February 5 2009, 7:42 PM 

CHLOE

Gladly. In my case, caned for smoking age 15 in 1967, I'm still a smoker now.

It didn't deter me at all & if anything made me more devious-though some on here might say that took some doing.

At our place, if you got nabbed for a 2nd caneable offence, you were expelled instead. At other local schools(Maidstone,Kent), this didn't apply and my recollection amongst the blokes I played football etc with was that it was usually the same kids getting caned regularly, so you have to doubt the deterence value.


Steve M

 
 
Another_Lurker

Re: punishment witnessed by females

February 5 2009, 8:30 PM 

Subscriptions Manager, I appreciate that your workload borders on the inmpossible, but is there any chance please that you might find a moment to comment on whether the proximity of the posts by Alison and Chloe was coincidence or if they might in fact be fairly closely related?

Other than in fun posting epidemics it is quite unusual for this estimable Forum to be visited by even one new female poster. Two within 5 minutes of each other stretches probability to its outer limits! happy.gif

 
 
Subscriptions Manager

Re: punishment witnessed by females

February 5 2009, 8:35 PM 

Alison and Chloe are very closely related.

 
 
Alan Turing

Re: punishment witnessed by females

February 5 2009, 8:36 PM 

Oooh, A_L, you're such a sceptic! (You didn't want me to do a probability calculation, did you?)

 
 
Alan Turing

Re: punishment witnessed by females

February 5 2009, 8:41 PM 

Thank you, Subscriptions Manager; you factual answer obviates the need for any estimate from me or anyone else. These are no longer what we in the trade call "independent events".

 
 
Alan Turing

Re: punishment witnessed by females

February 5 2009, 8:48 PM 

Sorry to do three in a row (unless someone else gets in sharpish) -- but I note that the post by Another_Lurker just above was number 100 in this thread, a fact worthy of note. I wonder if a device, perhaps similar to the famous Posting Tracker, could be used to put a celebratory border around the hundredth post in any thread?

I seem to remember A_L doing this manually once, to distinguish his post from that of the multiple other lurkers we have around.

 
 
Another_Lurker

Re: punishment witnessed by females

February 5 2009, 10:23 PM 


Subscriptions Manager, may I please add my thanks for your incredibly prompt and informative posting to those already expressed by my esteemed friend Mr Turing.

Alan it was of course exactly you I had in mind when I used the word 'probability' happy.gif And 'specially for you here's a border round this posting. In future I shall attempt to remember to use a border, and possibly a nice coloured background like this, when I happen to be the 100th poster in a thread. Of course, with the frequency that the phone rings and has to be dealt with while I'm posting, the odds are that it will seldom be the 100th post that gets the adornment, 'cos someone else will have got in first!

 
 
ddd

witnessedby females

April 16 2009, 10:13 PM 

when i was 10 in the early 60s another girl and myself were bullied by a 15yr old girl stealing our lunch money etc one day she was caught in the act and sent to the headmistress, it usually meant six with the strap on the hands but this girl had had numerous warnings. as victims we were called in to witness The girl called anne was rough and ready but very scarey as she waited she muttered we were both dead rubbing her hands together in preperation for the stap The head told her shed be getting the cane instead unheard off She went white when told to bend over the desk and she got six stingers on the seat of her pants only jumping up at the last and furiously rubbing her bum hopping from foot to foot face red and clenched She never bothered us again

 
 
ukboy

school cane

April 17 2009, 3:13 PM 

At our school boys were caned in private but girls could hear us being caned at break time if they were sent to detention by standing face to the wall near the headmasters office.

 
 
rajan

humiliation

April 30 2009, 8:01 PM 

In eightees when I was in sr. school cane was considered an importent tool to disciplin boys. Girls were immune from such ruthless punishment. Cane was frequently used even for minor offences by both male and female teachers. Humiliation of being caned in presence of giggling and smirking girls was more painful than the impact of cane!

 
 

Another_Lurker

Re: punishment witnessed by females

April 30 2009, 9:16 PM 

Hi Rajan. The disciplinary regime in your school sounds quite severe and, for the UK at least, quite unusual by the 1980s. Would you be prepared to say in what country you went to Senior School please?

You say that girls were exempt from the cane. What punishments were imposed by teachers if girls did misbehave?

 
 
carbonite

witnessed by females

May 18 2009, 10:32 PM 

When i was thirteen i was sent to a very strict school that female teachers
used the cane for any offence they thought necessary.Their were loads of different canes and usually had coloured tape on the ends for each department.The canings were always on the bottom which i think delighted
some of the female staff having this power.One fifteen year old boy in the fifth year was always breaking rules and winding our english mistress up
about her canings of boys and that she was kinky.Think that he wanted her to
cane him and she certainly did many times and he got to be punished in the
gym by her with six of the best.We had a female art teacher who taught pottery and once two boys in the fifth year were caned by her on their bottoms for throwing clay about.They had to bend over a table and got three
strokes each with a cane which had white tape on the end and was about half
inch thick in diameter.One boy found it funny but the other one screamed and
said it hurt like hell.I can honestly say female teachers did use the cane
and this was in the 1980s so believe it or not some of them loved having
the authority to cane any boy they wanted for the smallest offence.

 
 

caning

May 20 2009, 3:36 PM 

Our head caned boys in private but I was asked by interested girls who were never caned or even slippered to describe the experience. I did exaggerate about the marks on my bottom to see their reaction but none of them asked to see my bottom sad.gif(
As an adult I do like to be be caned by females.

 
 

Female present at caning

May 26 2009, 10:40 PM 

As a new visitor I have been surprised to read of the many situations that I can relate to regarding the use of corporal punishment in schools .
I went to a modest private school up til end of the 90`s .
It may surprise many that private schools still used this form of discipline at least up till about 1997.
I got it up till age 14 ,often on the bare bottom as did other boys at the school . This was carried out in either a senior house masters study or in the Headmasters office .
It was on such occasions that the secretary was often also present in the room .
She would have been able to observe if she chose to come round from her portion of the room .
I do know that she just carried on her functions as bottoms were bared and dealt with .
It was understood by the parents that corporal punishment was a much used form of punishment for us boys at this Surry school .

 
 

Another_Lurker

Re: Female present at caning

May 27 2009, 12:32 AM 

A most interesting post, Jamescaned. I don't think that there is any doubt (except among our Fun Posters) that some UK Private Schools were caning boys (and in some cases girls) until well into the 1990s. However, I am surprised that the modus operandi you describe survived until then, though it was not uncommon for boys in the private sector until the 1950s and 1960s.

You do not actually say so, but presumably this was a boys only school? Your description seems to say that the secretary actually worked in the Headmaster's office. If that was the case it would I think have been quite unusual, and I fail to see how she could have avoided observing what went on in the room. Do you mean that she worked in an adjacent room which formed part of the Headmaster's office suite - perhaps an anteroom through which visitors entered the Headmaster's office?

More information about the bare bottom canings, frequency of such punishments, number of strokes, even (though I appreciate you may not wish to reveal it) name of school would be much appreciated by earnest seekers after truth like myself as I suspect that you must be one of the very last people in the UK to have suffered this indignity at school and not made the national media.

By the 1990s the press at least were taking a close interest in those private schools still using corporal punishments, witness the several reports on the Rodney School in my home county of Nottinghamshire. Your school must have been very fortunate to escape notice as I suspect that from a reporter's viewpoint the one thing to top girls being caned on the bottom would have been pupils of either sex being caned on the bare!

 
 

Another_Lurker

Re: Female present at caning

May 27 2009, 1:07 AM 

Another_Lurker is sadly having finger trouble. In the first paragraph of my post above

though it was not uncommon for boys in the private sector until the 1950s and 1960s.

should of course read

though it was not uncommon for boys in the private sector well into the 1950s and 1960s.

My apologies.

 
 

School secretary able to see canings

May 27 2009, 11:17 PM 

In response to a request to add some detail regarding a female staff member`s proximity to boys being caned by the Headmaster ,may I clarify some of the details .
As was suggested the Headmasters office could be described as a suite in that to gain entry to him one had to enter an L shaped room that was fronted by the secretary sitting to the left .

One could walk round further to the left past her desk and enter straight into the main part of the suite where straight ahead the Headmaster would be seated at his desk in front of a large window .
There was a small informal seating area and table for him to have meetings with parents ,staff or even us boys sometimes .
Also ,some filing cabinets extended into this area from the secretry`s side so she could be attending to these even when discipline was being given , and did so and must have seen what went on as boys were caned .

As in my case , the first time I had to report to the Headmaster for discipline ,I along with two other boys waited in the hallway outside the room marked Headmasters office .
The door opened and the secretary , a rather large lady in her forties called us in ,marking our names off a list . She had a sort of sympathetic expression for us as she told us to wait by her desk as she walked round to inform the Headmaster that we were all present .

She lead us round to him and went back round to her area .
She would have certainly heared every word spoken as he detailed why we were in front of him ,our pathetic excuses and his decision that we were to have our bottoms caned by him .
Feeling quite aware that she was hearing and possibly going to get a peep
of what was going to happen the first boy nervously got his trousers down as the Headmaster joined us on our side of his desk , cane in hand.
Underpants also had to be taken down . I always told myself that I would never get into this situation but here I was ,second in the line waiting to be told to take down my trousers and underpants and have to bend over in front of him and grip my ankles .
Shirt and vest was lifted right up out of the way .On this occasion and others , behind me I was aware that the secretary had come partly into this side to go to a filing cabinet or something .
Actually for a moment this distracted me from expecting the pain of the cain coming down on me . But I was soon made aware of that .
I was caned at school from eleven yrs old till after I was fourteen about ten times .
Six of those occasions was on my bare bottom ,either bending over or over the knee of a school master . The cane , slipper and also being smacked on my bottom by hand .
I know of several occasions from just my friends and also what I saw .

 
 

Another_Lurker

Re: School secretary able to see canings

May 27 2009, 11:47 PM 

Thank you Jamescaned. A very full response. Although you didn't confirm this I presume that the school was boys only. I'd guess that it was a fairly small school, 100 to 150 boys, and didn't have a sixth form, would this be correct?

I suspect that the Headmaster's secretary was quite used to canings taking place and was more sorry for the victims than interested in the proceedings. Still, as you say, a little un-nerving if you were the unwilling participant at the centre of the action!

 
 

Females and all boys schools

May 28 2009, 12:35 AM 

Thank you ,yes it was an all boys school ,and you are correct in your understanding of matters .
I think we had under 150 boys .But going to a school that used corporal punishment was the deciding factor that persuaded my mother to start allowing my step father to start spanking me as he spanked his own son and daughter .
He reasoned that it should be followed through at home .I got that till I was nearly sixteen .
But even though it was an all boys school we did sometimes have to attend our school medical inspections with a female doctor , Word would get around that it was a woman and a lot of boys did`nt really like that as it was once ayear and quite thorough .

 
 
ap

punishment witnessed by females

May 28 2009, 8:58 AM 

I attended a mixed secondary school in Yorkshire and there is no way in the wide world that any student male or female could be punished in front of the class. Male teachers would sometimes take boys out into the hallway and strap them across the hands. If a girl misbehaved while a male teacher was taking the class she was usually told off or sometimes sent to see the senior mistress where they either were slippered or smacked.

The really strict female teachers would sometimes take a girl into the hallway for a leg smacking but mostly just told them to keep quiet and most did. If boys continually misbehaved for a female teacher they were usually sent to the senior master and strapped across the hands.

Some female teachers in primary school used to smack both boys and girls in front of the class, but male teachers were not allowed to smack girls even in primary school.

 
 
Gary

Slippered in front of the class at junior school

June 17 2009, 2:38 PM 

At my junior school, which was mixed, boys but not girls could be slippered in front of the class. Most of the teachers were women and only one women used the slipper - Mrs Dean - while the others would send you to one of the male teachers to be punished.

This happened to me twice, and I was sent to Mr Stock both times who taught the top A stream class. I got 2 whacks across my short trousers both times, bending over a desk in the front of the class. The first time a girl had to move out of her place for me but the second time there was an empty desk for me to bend over.

It was embarrassing but probably not so bad as getting it in front of my own class would have been.

Girls never got the slipper but some teachers, both male and female, would hit their hands with a ruler

 
 
SMG

punishment witnessed by females

June 21 2009, 6:17 AM 

Some of the female teachers who did not use corporal punishment themselves would sometimes send you to see the senior mistress.

She would either give you a leg slapping or a slippering or sometimes both.
Even senior girls were dealt with in this way. After you were dealt with you were expected to return to class straight away.

 
 
bucks schoolboy

always in private

July 16 2009, 11:18 PM 

Our school only caned and slippered boys in the privacy of the heads office or the games teacher office. Girls never received or even saw the cane so it was always fun for boys to exaggerate their experience when asked by girls.

 
 
Oliver_S

Female Witnesses

September 1 2009, 3:45 PM 

There would appear to be a number of threads, that deal with the issues surrounding boys receiving corporal punishment whilst female's are either participants or witnesses. This thread would seem to be however the core thread, so I will put my ten pence worth here.

From time to time in any school year, we had our share of student teachers, nearly all of whom were female, or was that it just my imagination? They were I remember rather pretty girls, easy going by comparison to other teachers. I don't remember any of those that were in my class, sending a boy for the cane, but did hear of it in other classes. The incident I shall relate here, came about by being accused of breaking a film projector, whilst the teacher was out of the classroom. Thinking that I knew about such things, I attempted to put things right when the projector jammed whilst the class was left watching a film. By the time the teacher re-appeared, 16mm film was all over the floor and I was certainly going to get the blame. Mrs P, the Geography mistress, at this time, did not use the cane herself, but we had noticed that since returning to school after having a baby, she was short tempered and had sent several boy's to the Deputy Headmaster with a note, all of whom returned having been caned. I was duly sent with no doubt a similar sealed note, but on arrival at his office, found that he was not there. One of the school receptionists told me that he was over in the staff room and that I should go and seek him there.

Now it was not uncommon at this school for canings to take place in the staff room, in fact a cane was left bent into a semi-circle between the edges of one of the windows. Maybe this was for convenience or maybe it was to provide an ever present deterrent to boys walking past the window. I knocked on the door, to be given the enter command, where I found Mr C preparing a coffee for himself. I was told to stand to one side whilst he read the note. As usual it was at far too late a stage to argue or plead my case, just a question of getting it over with as quickly as possible. Mr C announced that he would be providing a disincentive to getting involved with unauthorised use of school equipment. Mr C removed the cane from it's resting place between the window, whereupon I could see for the first time that it was a substantial piece of rattan, not bamboo, which some teachers used. Mr C began the process of straightening out the cane, it had been kept in a bent position since its last use.

Before he could tell me to bend over, the staff room door opened and in came two of our current batch of female student teachers. One of them was the pretty young lady that had been taking us for English for a couple of weeks, the other, a girl that I had not seen in any of my classes. I must have blushed all the way to my ankles, as it must have been obvious what was about to happen. They did ask if they should come back for their tea later, but Mr C was having none of it, saying that it wouldn't take long. I was told to bend over, putting my hands on the arms of one of the easy chairs. Whilst Mr C gave his cane a swish and lined himself up with my rear, the two young women began to make their tea, as I could hear the rattling of the cups and saucers. As he pulled back for the first, the room fell silent, as the two girls sat in chairs behind me and drank their tea. I yelled with every one of the four very hard strokes and was crying by the end. After two, with me writhing but managing to hold on, but only just, the door opened and someone else came in, I didn't see or care who at that point. By the time the fourth had cracked loudly across my behind, I was crying steadily, but not uncontrollably. Told to get up, I looked at the two students, who appeared to just continue drinking their tea as though nothing had just happened. More humiliation, however as I saw that the other person to enter the staff room was the receptionist that I had seen earlier, who couldn't have been much beyond school leaving age herself.

The following day, the student teacher in my English class, asked me if I was alright, saying that she thought it must have really hurt. She I'm sure had no idea just how much, or how much I felt humiliated by their presence.

As a post script, a year after I left the school I returned as part of a careers information day, and was invited into the same staff room at afternoon break. I was taken aback to find that the very cane that had been used on me, was still bent into it's semi-circle in the window frame. I remember trying to hold a conversation with the schoolmistress responsible for careers, whilst not being able to take my eyes of that three foot plus length of rattan in the window. I remember feeling that I was again blushing down to my ankles.

BTW A_L I hope that things pick up again on this site, it seems that it is just a handful of us communicating at the moment.

 
 
R.G. Tracker

Re: Female Witnesses

September 1 2009, 5:20 PM 

BTW A_L I hope that things pick up again on this site, it seems that it is just a handful of us communicating at the moment.


Over five hundred posts were made in August. If things don't improve this month we'll get some of our people to cobble a few words together.


 
 

Another_Lurker

Re: Female Witnesses

September 2 2009, 1:16 AM 

Hi Oliver_S. You say:

BTW A_L I hope that things pick up again on this site, it seems that it is just a handful of us communicating at the moment.

Careful! You'll be getting me into trouble with the Powers That Be in this estimable Forum - Guilt by Association contrary to Rule 17 sub-section 23c (as modified following the great multiple identities scandal of January 2009)! happy.gif

Seriously, it is sometimes the case that only a few people seem to be actively participating. Then suddenly some of those many who read but seldom post will pitch in. Things can get quite exciting at times - not quite blood on the floor, but getting on that way! R.G. Tracker is as usual absolutely correct. There have indeed been over 500 posts in August, I'd done my own check a couple of nights ago, at which point we were almost there.

You also say:

There would appear to be a number of threads, that deal with the issues surrounding boys receiving corporal punishment whilst female's are either participants or witnesses. This thread would seem to be however the core thread, so I will put my ten pence worth here.

As I've said before, possibly to you, one of the strengths (at least in my eyes) of this Forum is that nobody makes too much of a fuss about thread discipline, keeping strictly on topic, or any of the petty regulations which inhibit the success of lesser Forums. However it is sometimes useful to have a consistent topic such as this thread represents so I take your point in posting here.

Your account above is a most interesting one. Let me say at the outset that as you know I have had considerable discussion with Doctor Dominum over the issue of boys being caned by women and/or with a female witness. I try to be logical, and I now accept that, given professional teachers and suitable safeguards there is really no reason why school corporal punishment, if indicated for the offence, should take account of the gender of pupil or teacher.

That's the logical me. The illogical and deeply personal me still thinks that as a teenager being caned by a female teacher and/or with a female witness might possibly be a turn-on or might possibly be deeply embarrassing. It has to be an illogical sentiment, because I simply cannot apply logic to the issue. I've never received any significant (in the cane/slipper sense) corporal punishment at all, from either sex. Further it is almost 50 years since I was at school so I really can't reconstruct how I might have felt then. Any reconstruction would inevitably be coloured by everything that has been read and heard since. I certainly was embarrassed by a school corporal punishment as a very young boy, but that embarrassment came from the fact that it was administered in front of a class, not from the fact that I was punished by a female teacher, quite a young and pretty one at that.

There certainly are men who are very much turned on by the idea of being punished by a woman or in front of a woman. We get posts from them here from time to time. You'll find some of them in the 'Headmistresses' thread here. For some reason these people often suffer from strange spelling idiosyncrasies, such as 'storks' for 'strokes' or 'cloths' for 'clothes'. Whether any of them derive their fetish from the actual experience of being caned by or in front of a woman as a boy is not usually clear.

Equally we get a few posts like yours where someone has been caned by or in front of a woman or women, or at the instigation of a woman, as a boy and has found the experience highly embarrassing. Personally I find the majority of those posts much more credible, as indeed I find yours. I certainly sympathise (I remember my own CP embarrassment, though not from the same cause, only too well). However one must consider if a dose of embarrassment is a bad thing in the context of a punishment. In your case I think it was certainly unfair, your punishment was in any case unwarranted and it was pure chance that you had the embarrassment of female witnesses. If the Headmaster had been in his office the women would not have been present. But in general is embarrassment associated with school CP, from this or any other cause, bad? I don't know the definitive answer, but I know that in my case it determined that I maintained pretty much a clean sheet for the rest of my school career!

The cane in the window is interesting, and IMHO highly unprofessional if anyone was going to do as the Headmaster did and use it. I take a theoretical interest in canes. My understanding is that any cane which could be bent into a curve in the window would probably be a rattan of some sort. Indeed you say that it was. Rattan canes do not I believe take kindly to being kept bent. The recommendation seems to be that they should be kept out of the sun and allowed to hang straight down, so that their own weight tends to keep them straight. Further, they are said to benefit from occasional exposure to humid, damp conditions. Possibly these may have obtained in the staff room window in winter and slightly offset the drying out effects of the sun, and the permanent flexure, but I can't help thinking that cane was not really fit for purpose, lacking flexibility in use and making the punishment experience more akin to being hit with the much more rigid bamboo, which you said some teachers used but which I don't think was ever recommended as a proper punishment implement. I'm sure it was a deterrent to some pupils though. happy.gif

I much look forward to your further accounts, whichever thread you decide to put them in. You can of course readily open your own thread if you wish.

 
 

Another_Lurker

Re: Female Witnesses

September 2 2009, 1:30 AM 

Hi R.G. Tracker. You say:

If things don't improve this month we'll get some of our people to cobble a few words together.

Should you need to implement this strategy any chance you could get someone to make up something suitably lurid and post it in my Rodney School thread here? It's gone totally dead again and the ex-Rodney pupil I'd set my heart on, who'll give us the true story, is still proving elusive! happy.gif

 
 
hcj

Re: punishment witnessed by females

September 2 2009, 8:13 AM 

A_L wrote ...The cane in the window is interesting, and IMHO highly unprofessional if anyone was going to do as the Headmaster did and use it. I take a theoretical interest in canes. My understanding is that any cane which could be bent into a curve in the window would probably be a rattan of some sort. Indeed you say that it was. Rattan canes do not I believe take kindly to being kept bent. The recommendation seems to be that they should be kept out of the sun and allowed to hang straight down, so that their own weight tends to keep them straight. Further, they are said to benefit from occasional exposure to humid, damp conditions. Possibly these may have obtained in the staff room window in winter and slightly offset the drying out effects of the sun, and the permanent flexure, but I can't help thinking that cane was not really fit for purpose, lacking flexibility in use and making the punishment experience more akin to being hit with the much more rigid bamboo, which you said some teachers used but which I don't think was ever recommended as a proper punishment implement. I'm sure it was a deterrent to some pupils though....

Most, if not all punishment canes were/are made from rattan. As I understand it, the rattan stems are dried in the sun for weeks before being made into canes. They don't need to be damp - indeed crook handle canes will lose their shape in damp conditions.

I think it would be bad to keep a cane permanently flexed or, indeed, to manufacture one from cane that has been coiled. Canes need to be straight if they are to be accurate. There is nothing more unpleasant than being hit "off target".


 
 

Another_Lurker

Re: punishment witnessed by females

September 3 2009, 1:02 AM 

Hi hcj. We seem to agree that long term curvature of a cane would be undesirable, which the main point I was trying to make. On other points you say:

I think it would be bad .............. to manufacture one from cane that has been coiled. Canes need to be straight if they are to be accurate.

I believe that rattan is generally imported in coils, whether intended for punishment canes or for other purposes. It is a vine like plant of the palm family which grows to a considerable length, coiling itself around trees, so initially curvature is usually inherent in the product. For some of its applications, furniture etc., the product is used in very long lengths so chopping it into short lengths and straightening it for shipping would not make sense commercially. Coils are a natural way to transport it. Here is a link to the manufacturing notes of a business which sells a great many canes on eBay in the UK. This mentions 6 metre long coils as the raw material. Clearly the canes concerned are now sold for fetish rather than scholastic purposes, but they appear to be the genuine article as opposed to the 'toy' items sold very cheaply for fancy dress purposes.

You also say:

They don't need to be damp - indeed crook handle canes will lose their shape in damp conditions.

I was not suggesting that they needed to be damp all the time, I said 'occasional exposure to humid, damp conditions' and that is what I meant.

Here is an extract from some cane care notes in The SandMUtopian Guardian:

Varnished canes may benefit from having their tips sealed, while unvarnished ones can be kept flexible longer by exposing them to very high humidity once in a while. Hanging the cane behind a bathroom door while taking a hot shower does the job nicely.

I will not link the site directly since it is undoubtedly fetishistic in nature, however Googling 'care of canes' will bring it up as the first hit. You will find similar advice on other sites.

 
 
hcj

Re: punishment witnessed by females

September 3 2009, 6:37 AM 

Hi A_L,
I understand where your information comes from, but I happen to take a different view based on what I know of the manufacture of canes for UK schools during the cp era.

 
 

Another_Lurker

Re: punishment witnessed by females

September 3 2009, 7:01 AM 

Hi hcj. I scent a story. Personal expertise is always much appreciated on this estimable Forum. Can we have further details please?

 
 
hcj

Re: punishment witnessed by females

September 3 2009, 7:32 AM 

I'm sorry, some of the information would identify people who are not part of this public forum. I would be happy say more privately by e-mail. You can contact me through Dr. D's Yahoo group (hcsjohn).

 
 

Another_Lurker

Re: punishment witnessed by females

September 3 2009, 10:02 PM 

Thank you for the kind offer hcj. I won't take advantage of it at present. It would appear that some rattan is (and presumably has been for a considerable period) imported in bundles of cut lengths, having been processed to preserve it and then straightened by contra-bending and dried relatively close to the harvesting site. I won't waste time giving links to the information on this, as you are obviously already aware of it. I am not clear from information I can find if this makes (and made) it superior in quality to coiled rattan when used for the manufacture of punishment canes, but I'm guessing from your response that this would be the case.

 
 
hcj

Re: punishment witnessed by females

September 4 2009, 8:26 AM 

A_L wrote: I am not clear from information I can find if this makes (and made) it superior in quality to coiled rattan when used for the manufacture of punishment canes, but I'm guessing from your response that this would be the case.


I doubt that the unfortunate person on the receiving end would notice much difference, but my experience suggests that the user finds it better.

A well made cane works with you, almost as if it were alive, to deliver its message sharply and accurately. A poor cane, by contrast, has a mind of its own and tends to stray off target unless it is firmly controlled. That makes it more difficult to concentrate on the task.

Where there is a crook handle, it is important that it is aligned with the direction the rattan prefers to bend. The cane should then snap back straight immediately after the impact. In my view, the fast release of pressure is an important element of the stroke.

I'm afraid like a poor cane we have drifted off target with this thread. Perhaps we should find another, more suitable, place for any further discussion?





 
 

Another_Lurker

Re: punishment witnessed by females

September 5 2009, 12:11 AM 

Hi hcj. You say:

I'm afraid like a poor cane we have drifted off target with this thread. Perhaps we should find another, more suitable, place for any further discussion?

I think we have given the subject a thorough kicking, so perhaps we can rest it for the time being.

I shouldn't worry about the thread drifting off target. This is one of the more popular threads in this estimable Forum and by virtue of the predilictions of some of the occasional casual visitors here regularly gets reopened. You may have noticed that it dates back to July 2003.

 
 
SUJATHA SWAMI

BOYS ACDEMIC PERFORMANCE AND CP

October 29 2009, 4:12 AM 




In India cane and other form of physical punishments are banned by law since last twenty years.Earlier cane was used very frequently to discipline boys only, girls vere given some lighter form of punishment.There is genral and gradual deteroriation in academic performance of boys.I think cane was very effective mean for their development.I think humiliation of being caned by female teachers or witness by girls is very effective way to improve performance of boys and should be reintroduced for welfare of boys.

 
 
J (formerly Jethro)

Re: punishment witnessed by females

October 30 2009, 7:18 PM 

Quote: I think humiliation of being caned by female teachers or witness by girls is very effective way to improve performance of boys and should be reintroduced for welfare of boys

I do agree with that.

 
 

Re: punishment witnessed by males

October 30 2009, 7:31 PM 

I think humiliation of being caned by male teachers or witness by boys is very effective way to improve performance of girls and should be reintroduced for welfare of girls.

 
 

Another_Lurker

Re: punishment witnessed by males

October 30 2009, 9:25 PM 

Hi Jenny. You say above:

I think humiliation of being caned by male teachers or witness by boys is very effective way to improve performance of girls and should be reintroduced for welfare of girls.

There is long standing tradition in this estimable Forum that when you are joking you end the relative section of your text with a smiley. It's quite easy, just type :­) (colon close parenthesis) which will give you a little smiling face like this happy.gif. I thought I'd better remind you because you missed the smiley off your post above and I'm sure you were joking, weren't you?

 
 

Re: punishment witnessed by males

October 30 2009, 11:37 PM 

Another_Lurker

I thought I'd better remind you because you missed the smiley off your post above and I'm sure you were joking, weren't you?

Was I? Why do you think that? wink.gif Seriously, I was highlighting how sexist a previous comment was by the simplest means known - just say the same thing with the sexes reversed.

I know this isn't really the correct thread to ask in but how did you prevent a colon immediately followed by a close parenthesis being converted into a smiley?


 
 

Another_Lurker

Re: punishment witnessed by females

October 31 2009, 1:54 AM 

Hi Jenny. Sorry, I probably missed the smiley off my post as well! However I thought there was perhaps just an outside chance that you were seriously advocating humiliation, and particularly the humiliation of being punished by and in front of the opposite sex as a desirable component of school CP for girls. And to avoid your wrath I'll add to that 'or boys'!

Humiliation is always going to be a component of school CP, even if it is carried out in private. If it is carried out in front of a mixed class or group then clearly that humiliation is going to be exacerbated, at least IMHO. That is why I quizzed you extensively on this issue in our early exchanges. I know that we don't see totally eye to eye on the issue, but I was surprised that you appeared to be actually commending the process. I should have realised that the contributions of SUJATHA SWAMI and J (formerly Jethro) (the latter a far more long standing and eminent contributor than I) were in fact sexist. Silly me! wink.gif

You say:

how did you prevent a colon immediately followed by a close parenthesis being converted into a smiley?

Ever the computer person, and very commendable! At least we have that in common!

Certain words are barred by the 'morality and political correctness' software used by Network54 to censor our literary efforts. I've fallen foul of such software elsewhere. The version used by a number of ISPs doesn't like my surname and I'm quite sure the Network54 version wouldn't either! Thus I have a grudge against such software. When prof.n had the word snig­ger censored, a perfectly valid English word, and one often required when talking of schoolboys (and doubtless schoolgirls as well - I'm getting the hang of this sexist thing happy.gif) I felt it incumbent upon me to find a way round the problem.

The answer is the HTML soft hyphen, &#­173; inserted to break up any potentially dubious content within words, thus:

snig&#­173;ger gives snig­ger and Scu&#­173;nthorpe gives Scu­nthorpe, a town much discussed in this estimable Forum!

And finally the answer to your question. (Never ask Another_Lurker a simple question, he's incapable of treating it as such! happy.gif) What works to defeat auto-censorship will also serve to defeat the Network54 HTML and special characters parser, thus:

:&#­173;) will give :­) rather than happy.gif

I'm sure you can work out how to make &#­173; appear in the post! happy.gif

If interested, the full saga of trying to get the above to work is documented from 22:02 0n 31 July 2009 onwards in the Computing Corner thread to be found here. I had a 'bad finger' night that night!

 
 

Re: punishment witnessed by females

October 31 2009, 2:44 AM 

Hi Another_Lurker


Sorry, I probably missed the smiley off my post as well!

I took your comment lightly, as I thought you intended. Emoticons are very useful when communicating like this but, sometimes, the words are enough to convey the feeling.

However I thought there was perhaps just an outside chance that you were seriously advocating humiliation, and particularly the humiliation of being punished by and in front of the opposite sex as a desirable component of school CP for girls. And to avoid your wrath I'll add to that 'or boys'!

I doubt I would ever suggest that the sexes be treated differently. wink.gif I don't really agree with using humiliation as a form of punishment in itself but I'm flexible on that. Getting my hand smacked with a ruler in front of the class was more of a humiliating punishment than a painful one (it didn't hurt at all really) but I think that level of humiliation is acceptable.

I know that we don't see totally eye to eye on the issue, but I was surprised that you appeared to be actually commending the process.

I doubt we'll ever see completely eye-to-eye but I enjoy debating these issues with you. I'd miss that if we agreed on everything. wink.gif I neither commend nor condemn the process but I would expect it to apply to both sexes equally.

It's fascinating to watch how some people's opinions change instantly when the sex of the subjects is suddenly swapped. It applies both ways - compare attitudes towards a promiscuous young lad with those towards a promiscuous young lady.


Ever the computer person, and very commendable! At least we have that in common!

happy.gif


Thanks for the tip about using the soft-hyphen. You had mentioned it before in connection with "naughty words" but I overlooked it's use in combinations like :­)
wink.gif


 
 

union of the two?

October 31 2009, 2:59 AM 



Just a thought from my tortured mind late at night. ( I was (un?)fortunately taught my social philosophy by a Jesuit)

Isn't the answer to last few posts given in the symbolic representation of coniunctio spirituum ( the union of male and female principle) found in the alchemist text Rosarium philosophorum , published in 1550, reprinted in Artis Auriferae 1593 , and reproduced again in Bibliotheca chemica 1702 . More commonly in modern form in C.G. Jung 'Psychology and alchemy (1953).

I don't know 'our' Doctor's view on Jung but this certainly neatly ties up a transference of thought from the philosophical via the chemical to the psychological : and stands as a prima facie refutation of the title of that other Antipodean's early work , Germaine Greer's the female Enuch!

 
 
J (formerly Jethro)

Re: punishment witnessed by females

October 31 2009, 11:53 AM 

Quote Jenny: I think humiliation of being caned by male teachers or witness by boys is very effective way to improve performance of girls and should be reintroduced for welfare of girls

I also agree with that and should have said so to avoid being regarded as sexist -my apologies for not making that clear.

 
 

Re: punishment witnessed by females

October 31 2009, 3:13 PM 

J (formerly Jethro)

I also agree with that and should have said so to avoid being regarded as sexist -my apologies for not making that clear.

No need to apologize. Maybe I'm a little too pernickety but I thought it important to make the point and it was so easy to do.



 
 
Rajeev

Boys caning and student teachers

May 1 2010, 7:02 PM 


In india thirty years back, cane was used frequently to discipline boys, girls were spareed from such harsh punishment.In my school a mix school cane of boys was a private mater and always done in headmaster's study.A few female student teachers watch caning with great intrest and love to tell the episode with great salivation in their class.It was worst than the caning for the poor boy who had to face comments of giggling girls

 
 
Rechabit

Re: punishment witnessed by females

May 2 2010, 8:29 AM 

Every caning at my school was witnessed.

It was witnessed by the school secretary. As that position, (secretary) was all women could aspire to then, so not surprisingly the secretary was a woman. Neither could she park a car, and she was of course interested in cooking, and conformed to every other stereotype.

Did it add an element of eroticism to being caned. Absolutely not !

No matter how hard I try I cant find anything stimulating about my school secretary. At the time she seemed positively ancient, that being in her mid forties.

Personally I couldnt have cared less if had been witnessed by the school cat, you were about to be caned and it was going to hurt. For those that get a kick out of the notion that there is something erotic about enduring pain in the presence of a member of the opposite sex, I would have thought a trip to the dentist could be positively orgasmic.

 
 

Another_Lurker

Re: punishment witnessed by females

May 2 2010, 9:40 PM 

Hi Rechabit. You said:

For those that get a kick out of the notion that there is something erotic about enduring pain in the presence of a member of the opposite sex, I would have thought a trip to the dentist could be positively orgasmic.

A very good point! I wondered why I insisted on keeping to 6 monthly checks even though they said annually would be adequate! happy.gif

 
 
KK

Re: punishment witnessed by females

May 2 2010, 11:18 PM 

Rechabit wrote:

For those that get a kick out of the notion that there is something erotic about enduring pain in the presence of a member of the opposite sex, I would have thought a trip to the dentist could be positively orgasmic.

The vast majority of adolescent boys would have found the presence of female witnesses during receipt of punishment extremely embarassing and highly degrading. Most girls would have found the experience very uncomfortable, in my experience.

 
 
Jenny

Re: punishment witnessed by females

May 2 2010, 11:29 PM 

Hi KK


The vast majority of adolescent boys would have found the presence of female witnesses during receipt of punishment extremely embarassing and highly degrading. Most girls would have found the experience very uncomfortable, in my experience.

Do you mean that most girls would have found the presence of female witnesses very uncomfortable, or male witnesses? I can see how either could be the case.

For myself, I didn't really care either way but that could be due to a completely egalitarian system. Anyway, there were more important things to worry about at the time. sad.gif


 
 
KK

Clarification

May 2 2010, 11:50 PM 

The vast majority of adolescent boys would have found the presence of female witnesses during receipt of punishment extremely embarassing and highly degrading. Most adolescent girls would have been very uncomfortable witnessing the punishment of boys, in my experience. This was when girls were not subject to corporal punishment, rightly or wrongly.


 
 
Jenny

Re: Clarification

May 3 2010, 1:04 AM 

Hi KK


Thanks for the clarification. I don't doubt most boys would have found it embarrassing to be punished in front of female witnesses - especially if girls were exempt from such punishments. Wasn't that the whole idea?

I'm not so sure most girls would have been uncomfortable witnessing such punishments though. Personally, I would have felt very uncomfortable but it was not uncommon for some girls to contrive to get boys caned when they were in no danger of being punished themselves. The only time I saw boys caned was when I was in line for it too and any discomfort I felt was the physical kind.

If girls were exempt, the teachers could not consider caning a reasonable punishment for the offence. I would have been very upset at watching boys being abused like that and would have made my feelings known - most probably in words totally unsuitable to appear on this forum but which no teacher could fail to understand.




 
 
u.s.

girls

May 10 2010, 2:00 PM 

In my school in America, girls loved to see boys paddled. In one instance, just as the teacher was getting ready to deliver the first lick, a girl noticed the boy had something in his back pocket." Please, sir , don't swing," a girl cried. When the boy emptied his pocket and bent over again, the teacher asked the girl if it was ok to start the paddle. "Oh,yes," she giggled.The next sound was the paddle landing. Girls loved to see us swatted.

 
 
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