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Girls Caned in Sth Australia

November 30 2003 at 2:29 PM
Jodie A 

 
Yes Dean your article in Girls CP regarding the regulations of South Australia are certainly correct.My father got a job transfer in the early 1980s to Elizabeth in time for me to start high school.SA was the only state that allowed the headmaster or his male deputy to cane older girls.Not liking school,being rebellious and a bit of a tomboy earnt me plenty of visits to the front office.The headmaster quickly took a dislike to me and upon my second visit gave me 4 cuts of the cane.It hurt a lot but I was determined my behaviour wouldnt improve.Often when in trouble with another girl she would be suspended,given detention etc Id get the cane.Over a 3 year period I was given a number of canings until I was finally expelled.Are there many other females who got the cane in other SA schools?

 
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Brian

Re: Girls Caned in Sth Australia

November 30 2003, 8:46 PM 

Hello Jodie!

Were you caned on the hand or the bum?

 
 
Lotta Nonsense

Re: Re: Girls Caned in Sth Australia

November 30 2003, 9:02 PM 

Let me guess.

 
 
Dean

Re: Girls Caned in Sth Australia

November 30 2003, 9:15 PM 

There really shouldn't be many. While the South Australian regulations *allowed* for girls to be given corporal punishment by male teachers, the practice of using corporal punishment on girls at all regularly was heavily discouraged. Part of the reason the SA Regulations permitted male teachers to administer corporal punishment to girls was because it was expected to be a very rare event, and it was considered to make no sense for a principal to have to authorise a female teacher for something that should happen only once in a blue moon.

 
 
Jodie A

Girls Caned in Sth Australia

December 1 2003, 11:52 AM 

Brian yes it was on my bum a yellow colured cane with a crooked handle.Dean your such an expert I only said the headmaster or his deputy not any male teacher.

 
 
Lotta Nonsense

Re: Re: Girls Caned in Sth Australia

December 1 2003, 12:40 PM 

Don't get too excited, boys.

Jodie A is about as female as Joe Dimaggio.

 
 
Jodie A

Girls Caned in Sth Australia

December 1 2003, 1:33 PM 

Lotta Nonsense your true to name I bet you never felt the cane. Like Dean you get mixed up I said I was a bit of a tomboy at school so read my name. Its not my fault Elizabeth at that time was full of British migrants keen to keep tradition.

 
 
Dean

Re: Re: Re: Girls Caned in Sth Australia

December 1 2003, 1:38 PM 

Do you really think people aren't capable of judging for themselves whether particular posts are likely to be fake or not?

Personally, my view was that as soon as I posted those regulations, it was only a matter of time before someone turned up claiming to have been a girl caned in South Australia working on the principal that at least they had something to tell them it was possible there. That's one reason why I didn't initially post the information about how rare it was likely to be.

Just an addition to that - the South Australian regulationss of the 1960s apparently required corporal punishment to be administered only by the Principal or an authorised senior male teacher - only two teachers (principal included) in any state school could be authorised to administer corporal punishment. This appears to have been the origin of allowing male teachers to administer corporal punishment to girls in the cases that were expected to arise only extremely rarely. South Australia chose not to prohibit the corporal punishment of girls in state schools (unlike a couple of other states) in a belief that there were very rare occasions when it might be appropriate.

However this left them in a situation where, if they required girls only be punished by female teachers, they would be required to force a male principal (and the vast majority were male) to authorise a senior female teacher for the extremely rare occasions corporal punishment might be used on girls (or basically have it banned in that school by default), which would have deprived the principal of the option of appointing a male deputy to administer corporal punishment, unless they allowed principals to authorise two deputies with that power.

It was considered undesirable to have the principal be the only teacher capable of administering corporal punishment. It was considered undesirable to have more than two teachers in any school with such authorisation (part of the point of the regulations was to seriously the teachers who could administer corporal punishment). And it was considered undesirable for a female teacher to routinely administer corporal punishment to boys (not out of any sexual concerns - the belief was that the boys most likely to receive corporal punishment wouldn't respect it as much if it came from a woman as from a man).

Basically South Australia decided, it seems, that it was better to have male teachers *very rarely* administer corporal punishment to a girl than to have female teachers *routinely* administer it to boys.

By the mid 1970s, things had changed only slightly - the regulations changed to allow the principal to authorise one senior teacher (male or female) to administer corporal punishment - maybe they decided by then female teachers were respected enough by boys, I'm not sure. But because the vast majority of corporal punishment was still expected to be of boys, they still didn't enact any rule requiring girls only to be punished by female teachers - and in most schools, because it was a very rare event, there was no real pressure for that type of change.

The fact is, it does seem that it was expected in South Australian state schools that corporal punishment for girls was to be an extremely rare, last resort, type of situation - and it seems that in most, if not all, schools it was.

 
 
Lotta Nonsense

Re: Re: Re: Re: Girls Caned in Sth Australia

December 1 2003, 2:30 PM 

Jodie says he arrived in the SA school system in the early 1980s. Now, 'early 1980s' might mean 1981,2,3 or 4 but it doesn't mean 1980 itself.

He also says he was caned a number of times over a 3 year period.

All the above means that Jodie's last caning must have been in 1984,5,6 or 7.

Now, in the Austalian parliament in May 1997, Mr Stefianak (Minister for Education and Training) informed the house "The banning of corporal punishment in government schools in South Australia dates back to 1982".

There appears to be a discrepancy between the minister's statement and Jodie's experience.

 
 
Jodie A

Girls Caned in Sth Australia

December 1 2003, 3:10 PM 

Lotta your an insult. I dont care what you believe I personally know males who were caned in a SA state school in 1986 and as far as I can gather the cane was banned in 1989.Around Adelaide 3 Christian Primary Schools still use the cane on both sexes and only in the late 1990s another Christian school banned the cane.

 
 
Dean

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Girls Caned in Sth Australia

December 1 2003, 10:14 PM 

I am 99% sure the Minister was wrong - and I'm going to see if I can find an accurate date somewhere next time I do some research.

Off hand, I can't remember the date South Australia abolished corporal punishment in state schools - however I *know* the state of Victoria abolished it all state school in 1982 from the start of school year 1983, and I am virtually certain that it was the first state to do so.

Mr Stefaniak's statement recorded in the ACT Hansard is the only thing I've ever seen that suggest South Australia had abolition in 1982.

I have found a reference in a 1990 report to corporal punishment being gradually 'phased out' in South Australian state schools. I suppose it's possible that that phasing out process might have begun in 1982 and Mr Stefaniak saw that as abolition - but really I doubt a phasing out process would have taken 8 years.

Quote from 'Violence: directions for Australia' published by the Australian Institute of Criminology in 1990:

"The institution of corporal punishment in schools remains a matter of continued debate in Australia. Whilst some authorities regard the availability and selective use of physical punishment as essential to the maintenance of good order and discipline, others regard it as archaic and excessive. In public, as opposed to private schools, corporal punishment is allowable in the Northern Territory under specific conditions and was restored in New South Wales in November 1988. Corporal punishment in schools is banned in State schools in Victoria and Western Australia and is being phased out in South Australia. As a matter of policy, corporal punishment is not practised by school authorities in the Australian Capital Territory. Corporal punishment is allowed in independent schools in all States, although many do not use it."

I'm pretty certain Mr Stefaniak was simply wrong.

 
 
Dean

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Girls Caned in Sth Australia

December 1 2003, 10:29 PM 

Just to correct something in LN's post - I really should have put this in my previous messages but I forgot.

Mr Stefaniak was *not* speaking in the Australian Parliament. Rather he was was speaking in the Parliament of the Australian Capital Territory. It's an easy enough mistake to make, but the distinction is actually quite a significant one.

The Australian Capital Territory is somewhat similar to the District of Columbia in the United States, which people are more likely to be familiar with - it is a rather small, separate legislative area with its own limited self government which includes the national capital (Canberra) within its boundaries. It's basically a mini-state - it doesn't have quite the same powers as the actual Australian states do, but it is responsible for setting its own education laws with regards to the education of children.

The Australian Parliament (for the whole country) has very little to do with what goes on in schools.


 
 
Dean

Re: Girls Caned in Sth Australia

December 1 2003, 10:50 PM 

I don't claim to be an expert - I just happen to have a pretty reasonable knowledge of the historical use of corporal punishment in Australian schools, and I have access to a lot of documents with information about it.

The regulations in South Australia in force in the early 1980s restricted the use of corporal punishment to only two teachers in any state school. The Principal, who had the power to delegate this authority to ONE teacher only. The Principal could choose which teacher this was from their senior teachers. In most cases, that power was delegated to the Deputy Principal, but the Principal could choose a different teacher if they wanted to.

When I referred to male teachers in the post you appear to have taken exception to, I wasn't saying 'all male teachers' had the power to administer corporal punishment to girls - what I was saying was that South Australia was one of the only state where (in state schools) *any* male teachers *at all* could potentially have administered corporal punishment to a secondary school girl in the recent (post 1970 or so) past.

I wasn't saying all male teachers did it - because I know they didn't. The power was greatly restricted. Just that the *possibility* existed for it to occur legally in that state by a few male teachers.

As I've posted previously the fact it was restricted, I did not see any need to restate that fact.

What you have described as happening to you is legally possible. As you say it happened in Elizabeth, I'm even moderately inclined to believe its plausible.

However I personally believe in making factual information available to people, accurate factual information. And those facts tell me that if what you are describing happened, it would have been extremely unusual - there may well have been a few schools in South Australia where it happened, but it would have been a serious minority.

And I would not have liked to have been the Principal of that school if there was a complaint - because while he probably wasn't violating the letter of the law, he would have been stretching policy to the very limit if he caned any girl on more than one, maybe two, occasions, or allowed it to happen in his school. If there were no complaints made, it's unlikely any fuss would have developed - but a single complaint from a pupil, a parent, or a teacher, would have made life very awkward for him.

 
 
Lotta Nonsense

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Girls Caned in Sth Australia

December 1 2003, 11:11 PM 

Jodie's futile attempt at female impersonation has, at least, spawned a fascinating insight into the history of CP down under. Indeed, I understand that more than a few pommies are keen on a little CP down under.

Also on an Antipodean note, I hear that members of Steff's lesbospank site often get together to compare maps of Tasmania.

What a wonderfully small world we live in.

 
 
Greg

Girls Caned in Sth Australia

December 2 2003, 1:24 AM 

Having spent 12 years going to Sth Australian state schools in the 70s and early 80s I have no reason to doubt that Jodie A was not caned. In 1980 I started high school in the country and one day a thin blonde girl in my class told the male teacher where to go.He promptly told her to stand up.Picking up a wooden ruler he came up behind her.Removed her chair and thrashed the back of her bare thighs just bellow her dress line.You could tell it hurt as her face went bright red and upon sitting her nose turned up.Later that year on school camp at a beach a girl did something wrong and a female teacher took her aside.Wearing only a one piece swim suit didnt help her cause as she was made to bend over and take a good hand spanking on the bare flesh at the base of her bum.On 3 occasions I can recall girls walking away from the front office with pain writen on their faces.Two other girls were reportly caned by a deputy headmaster one on 2 occasions.The way that girl behaved it wouldnt have surprised me.In SA christian schools back then girls were certainly given the cane.One told me so.Since leaving school I have met other females who mentioned they were caned.One was telling off her 11 yo daughter about her school behaviour when she stated.When I was at school you got the cane on the bum.

 
 
Gillian

Re: Girls Caned in Sth Australia

December 2 2003, 6:05 AM 

I am enjoying reading this thread, but would enjoy it so much more if Jodie A was able to change his literary style when writing as Greg.

 
 
Gym Shoe

CP of Girls in Australia

December 2 2003, 1:04 PM 

I can recall a while back reading in a publication from STOPP that the general practice in Australia was that corporal punishment was only used on boys, and girls up to the age of 14, i.e. all boys and girls aged 13 or younger.

I must admit that I wondered if that meant that when a girl was approaching her 14th birthday she was more liable to get a whacking just because it was he teachers last chance to do so.

I'm afraid I can't recall what implements were used but having seen the drama "the Leaving of Liverpool" where the main female character was caned I assumed that this was at least one option.

 
 
pennywise

hey

December 2 2003, 6:11 PM 

Hi I went to school at regent's park christian school in sydney. CP was certainly used in australian schools but not know I assume.
The paddle was used for boys and girls at regent's park. I got it three times and my sister got it once.
I saw her bum that night and it was crimson.
It really happened and I have to admit that I liked it.
lou

 
 
Dean

Re: CP of Girls in Australia

December 2 2003, 11:43 PM 

It looks to me like STOPP was slightly wrong in their ages.

The only cut off age for girls in Australian state schools was age 12 - specifically the 12th birthday.

This cutoff applied in New South Wales (prior to initial abolition), the Australian Capital Territory, and Western Australia.

In those states formal corporal punishment could not *legally* be used on girls aged 12 or over.

In Victoria and Queensland, formal corporal punishment could not be used on girls in state schools at all.

In South Australia and Tasmania all girls, regardless of age, could legally be corporally punished in state schools, but it was supposed to be very rare - especially at secondary level.

The Northern Territory had no regulations at all.

Generally speaking the above represents the situation from around the late 1950s to the abolitions in state schools that occurred in the 1980s and 1990s.

The one exception is New South Wales - which abolished corporal punishment and then reintroduced it for a period before abolishing it a second time. During the reinstatement period, the rules required girls and boys to be treated identically.

Prior to around 1960, there were basically no regulations in Australian schools. Common law applied - which basically put the teacher in loco parentis and allowed any fully qualified teacher (which generally meant any teacher over 21) to administer 'reasonable corporal punishment' to any child. Where state regulations existed, they basically restated the Common law position. Some states set guidelines for teachers - basically saying "This is the way you should do it, and if you do it this way, it will automatically be reasonable" but they were guidelines, not regulations.

Around 1960 - dates differ depending on the state, all states and territories (except the sparsely populated Northern Territory) began to enact more detailed regulations. Those are the ones I have referenced above.

It's important to understand though that these regulations were somewhat flexible - getting less and less flexible as time went on.

The reason the cut off was age 12, is because that was the approximate dividing line between primary and secondary schools in most Australian educational jurisdictions - for example in Victoria, primary school ran to grade six, with secondary school beginning at the start of year 7. Most children turned 12 either in the second half of their grade six year, or the first half of their year 7 year. So setting the cutoff at age 12, basically meant girls could be physically punished in NSW, the ACT, and Western Australia in primary schools, but not secondary schools.

And that was the general rule followed in most schools rather than the strict 12th birthday rule - if a girl turned 12 in August, she'd still be in a primary school for another four months - and she was still subject to corporal punishment. On the other hand, if she turned 12 in May, she would probably have been exempt from the age of 11 and 9 months simply because she was in a secondary school where girls weren't physically punished.

There was also flexibility as to what corporal punishment *was*. Generally speaking the prohibitions inherent in the regulations were considered to apply only to formal corporal punishment - a teacher smacking or spanking with their hand, a girl of 8 was *very* unlikely to get into any trouble even in the states that banned all corporal punishment of girls, because that wasn't really considered to be corporal punishment. Precisely where the line was between 'smacking' and 'corporal punishment' was was very blurred - a teacher could even have probably got away with using something like a ruler - basically as long as they didn't use the official implement, they were probably OK - especially in the early days of regulation. As things got closer to abolition, informal punishments became more and more frowned upon.

As for the implements used, that differed from state to state.

In schools in New South Wales, the ACT, and Western Australia, official corporal punishment could only be administered with a cane.

In Victoria, it could only be administered with a strap.

In Tasmania, both the cane and the strap were official implements.

In Queensland and South Australia, there was no set official implement, but the cane was generally used.

In the Northern Territory, I don't know for certain, but I'd assume the cane was the standard implement.

This was the official implements in *STATE* schools - other things like rulers, feather dusters, slippers, etc, were all pressed into service at different times.

Catholic Systemic schools (the Catholic Education system in Australia is quite large and very well organised) tended to use the same official method as the state they were located in - but also tended to use it for at least a couple of years after state school abolition.

Non Catholic Sytem independent schools (which confusingly includes some Catholic schools) basically fall into two categories when it comes to corporal punishment - traditional 'elite' schools, which generally used the cane, with a few opting for the strap, and more modern Parent-Controlled Christian schools, some of which used the cane or strap, and some of which, showing an influence from the United States, used paddles.

However - independent schools were not subject to the same level of regulation as state or Catholic Systemic schools, so a lot of other less formal methods of punishment were used as well. And the rgulations restricting the corporal punishment of girls did not apply to independent schools either. And in some states, there are still a few independent schools that still use corporal punishment.

With regards to the Leaving of Liverpool - it has to be remembered that that series was about a group of children who regrettably were disproportionately subjected to abuse when they arrived in Australia. So the scenes of corporal punishment seen in that series, while illustrative of real events, should not be viewed as, representing the norm.

*Dean - surprised that nobody has posted any comment on the images he posted a link to, but that this thread has so far elicited 18 responses*

 
 
Jodie A

Girls Caned in Sth Australia

December 4 2003, 1:47 AM 

I realize it was not common only several other girls I can think off got caned at my school.I was only curious to see if it occurred more in some other schools.Over the years the odd discussion has happened with other females who said it was never used on any girl they knew of at their schools.One said she wished she had the first time she got caught smoking.Twenty years later and she still cant kick the habit.

 
 
 
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