This article appeared in The Weekend Australian last weekend - I obtained the link from another school corporal punishment group, and thought some people might like to see it here.

Dean; It looks like that picture was taken in the early '70s. The slacks that teacher is wearing are the same style I wore in the early '70s.

Yes, I'm pretty sure the picture is from the '70s - you don't see hair like that on kids either here today. But the article is definitely from last week - I saw it in the paper.

Fear and Loathing pretty well describes the look on the faces of every single one of those students.

That's an extremely staged-looking photo. I don't think that stick is a proper cane at all, it's too thick and stiff.

And what a horrid bottom the teacher has.

It is the type of cane typically used in New South Wales state schools in the 1970s.

Dean, I found your posting quite interesting. What I find amusing about these types of articles is the reference made to the cane being used in Victorian Schools.

Having been educated in Melbourne, I am always amazed by reports of the cane being used in this state. In my years at school I never once saw a cane ever being used, nor did any of my friends, and I have a lot of friends who attended different schools, both public and private.

I don't deny the cane may have been used in schools in Victoria, it just appears from my findings the strap was the weapon of choice.

I have friends who told me either a strap, or in one rare case, a slipper (This was used on boarders at Ivanhoe Grammer; circa 1960's) was the popular instrument of choice at that particular school. The slipper seems another unusual instrument to me. The Ivanhoe Grammer story was the first time I had heard of a slipper being used in a Victorian, or for that matter any other school.

Most of my friends are 40's - 50's in age so perhaps the time frame may come into play here. Most secondary schools I was familiar with and I mention the following schools; Keon Park Technical School (Sold about 15 years ago for housing development.) and Preston Technical College, (which is now known as Northern Metropolitan TAFE.) Both used the strap and not the cane as did primary schools in the area.

Unfortunately my memory regarding Northcote High School is a little vague. I have already mentioned Ivanoe Grammer above and I should mention all the schools I mentioned were boy's schools. Preston Tech did have a girls school attached to the grounds and I was told by the sister of a friend of mine that contrary to other peoples beliefs, the Headmistress used the strap, something of which I was oblivious to during my years at the school due to the male and female students being isolated from each other.


I did however have a friend I served with in the armed forces, and in a particular conversation about our old school days, he noted that in his own state of Queensland the cane was used. Given on the hands and not the "R - SEND". His direct words, not mine.

I believe there is always a certain percentage misrepresented facts when it comes to what the media reports regardless of any topic.

Thanks for posting the article. I'm sure it has some nostelgic/historic value for some Aussie members here.

You make some very good points.

I'm an historian by training and profession, specialising in institutional histories, including school history's. As a hobby, alongside my work, I specifically research the history of corporal punishment in Australian schools.

And, yes, I noticed the references to the cane in Victoria as well, in that article with some amusement.

Here's the situation in Victoria as my research has revealed it.

Initially the cane was the most common instrument of corporal punishment used in all Victorian schools. Victoria's first schools were 'National Schools' and 'Denominational Schools' inherited from the education system that had been set up in New South Wales and which Victoria kept operating when it was proclaimed a separate colony in 1851. These were solely primary schools catering for children up until age 12 (New South Wales did have one government run secondary school at the time of Victoria's separation - Fort Street in Sydney). The cane had been in use for boys in National Schools and for both boys and girls in denominational schools in New South Wales and initially these practices were replicated in Victoria. There were no secondary schools operating in Victoria but following the establishment of the University of Melbourne in 1854, the need for schools to provide secondary education to supply students for the university became apparent. The colonial government had no interest in running its own secondary schools so it offered seed money to the Church's to set up a number of 'Public Schools' on the British model. The schools established under this system were Scotch College, Melbourne Grammar, Geelong Grammar, Wesley College, and St Patrick's College (Geelong College was later retrospectively ruled to be such a school, and when Xavier College became the state's dominant Catholic school, St Patrick's transferred it's Public School charter to Xavier - creating the dominant grouping of Independent Schools in Victoria - the Six Great Schools).

In 1862, the National Schools and the Denominational Schools (all primary schools) were merged into a group referred to as the Common Schools. With this merger it became normal practice for corporal punishment to be administered to both boys and girls in the common schools, whereas before girls had been (at least officially) exempt in the National Schools.

The independent secondary schools were permitted to set their own policies on corporal punishment. Scotch, reflecting its Scottish heritage primarily used the tawse. Melbourne Grammar, Geelong Grammar, and Wesley College formed in imitation of the major English schools, such as Eton, Harrow, Winchester, etc used the cane. St Patrick's was in the care of the Jesuits and they used their standard strap.

In 1872, the Victorian government totally reformed its education system with the Education Act of 1872 (still in effect today - although likely to be replaced this year). This Act sought to make primary school education universal and free. While the Act itself didn't mention corporal punishment, the Department of Education set up under it, did turn its attention to the issue in the mid 1870s. These people were reformers - who wanted a 'modern' education system based on new ideas - and they seriously considered abolishing corporal punishment in all state schools (still all primary schools at this stage).

But the education system in effect at the time, involved smart boys being allowed to go on from the state school primary system to the independent schools for secondary education on government paid scholarships. The system relied upon the goodwill of the independent schools being willing to accept scholarship children from the state primary schools - and these schools made it quite clear that they regarded corporal punishment as necessary in the primary schools - they didn't want the poorer students coming into their independent schools to be ill-disciplined. An argument developed, but eventually was brokered by Morrison, the Headmaster of Scotch. He persuaded the Education Department that the tawse would suit their needs. It was the 'the most humane means ever used in school government', and so from the late 1870s onwards, Education department guidelines stated that only the tawse across the hand could be used in Victorian state schools for the purposes of corporal punishment. This rule was generally followed, but by no means perfectly until 1900.

Between 1872 and 1900, Catholic primary schools were also being set up by the Catholic Church itself in response to the 1872 Education Act banning religious instruction in state schools, but the Education Department nevertheless allowing Anglican prayers in schools. Because these Catholic schools were intended to be a copy of the state school system except on the matter of religion, they also adopted state school practices, with the strap (the term tawse was only in use officially for about ten years) on the hand being their primary method of corporal punishment.

In 1900, for the first time, the Education Department issued the Education Gazette - which laid down easily accessible regulations for all aspects of state schools. While the strap had been the only method officially supposed to be used in state schools, this had never been put into a binding regulation. In 1900, it was. From that point onwards, until abolition in state schools in 1983, the rules on corporal punishment in state schools stated explicitly that only the strap could be used, it could only be administered on the palm of the hand, and could only be administered to boys. These rules were not always followed perfectly but from 1900 onwards, teachers who broke them could be fined, or dismissed.

The Catholic schools set no binding regulation on their schools, but they followed the general practice of the state schools. Corporal punishment of girls was rare, but not actually banned. Catholic Schools (in the Archdiocese of Melbourne at least) abolished corporal punishment in 1985 - and they did it by their own decision - another point of inaccuracy in that article.

As the state system and the Catholic system established more and more secondary schools of their own, practices from the primary schools of their systems moved upwards into the secondary schools. Initially it was intended that state High Schools wouldn't use corporal punishment (and, in fact, Melbourne High School - the first state High School established in 1905 as the Melbourne Continuation School never officially used corporal punishment) but no regulation was ever passed to that effect, and by 1920, it was accepted that state High Schools used the strap.

The state and Catholic systems together account for most of the state's schools - and they used the strap.

But there were Independent schools that used the cane (and this actually included some Catholic schools - not all Catholic schools are part of the Catholic system).

Private schools that I know used the cane from documentary evidence are:

Scotch College (though the tawse was used initially, the cane became more and more used over time partly because once the strap was officially adopted by the state system, a perception developed that it was a punishment for lower class boys, an image Scotch certainly did not want for itself - the strap did survive in the hands of a few teachers).

Melbourne Grammar

Geelong Grammar

Geelong College

Wesley Grammar

Xavier College (the strap was the primary method of corporal punishment at Xavier, but from the early twentieth century onwards, in response to the same 'class issues' as described above, Xavier also made use of the cane).

Mentone Grammar

Brighton Grammar

Haileybury College

Carey Baptist Grammar

Caulfield Grammar

Trinity Grammar

St Michael's Grammar School

Basically the cane was in use in many of the 'elite' schools.

The slipper was rare here. The only case I have found in my research - and that's been quite considerable of a slipper being used in a Victorian school was an incident at Scotch.

Myself - I attended Xavier College from the mid 1980s to the early 1990s - Kostka Hall in Brighton, initially, then the senior school at Kew. And my experiences were with the strap.

I rely upon research as an important tool in my toolbox where my job is concerned and I appreciate what you say.

I write the following without Prejudice.

I have read many accounts regarding private and religous schools. Unfortunately, public schools seem to be over looked. This is a pity because a vast majority of the nations population was educated in the public system. There exists a wealth of information just waiting to be tapped into in this area. However I believe it would be in the form of actaul eyewitness accounts as compared to written documentation from school archives.

On the issue of age of public schools, If we care to look around there are quite a few schools both in the Urban and rural Australia that are over 100 years old.

Bundoora, or Keelbundoora as it was formally known is a good example. RMIT owns property with such a school building which for memory is listed by the National Trust. The school is on Plenty Rd near the ring road overpass.

Another school in the area is Norris Bank State School which has a story attached about school's children planting Pine trees on a plantation across from the school at the turn of the last century. This story clearly indicates the school being over 100 years old.

Further evidence is in the form of local families having ancestors who attended the school. This school has a very good reputation in the area and is still in operation today.


I believe if we are going to talk about schools in Australia, it would be reasonable for both private and public schools to be represented. I attended schools in both sectors and I feel there is a lot of material regarding public schools yet to be written.


Hopefully, someone with the necessary research skills and interest in the public system may take up the challenge. I just wish I had more time to donate the topic.

Again, you make some excellent points.

As a professional historian, it is my dream at some point to be able to write a proper and definitive history of school corporal punishment in Australia. But to do this properly would require hundreds of hours of work and specialised access, and it's the access that is the real problem. It's really very hard to do this type of work unless you are commissioned by a school. And, unfortunately few state schools are interested in having proper histories written, and even if they are interested, can rarely justify the expense for a detailed history. As for the system as a whole - the Department of Education and Training doesn't much like its history being delved into too deeply - it's much harder to close a school with a known history, and they feel such research hamstrings them.

There are exceptions - I've recently helped with the research of a history of Cheltenham Primary School - which is one of the state's oldest schools, dating back to 1855. They commissioned a history for their 150th Anniversary - but generally state schools don't have this type of work done. The only Victorian State Schools I know of with significant published school histories are Melbourne High (hardly the most typical state school) and Frankston High. Whereas most of the significant independent schools have at least one published history.

These differ in scope considerably - the best of them (none of which I had any involvement in) are those associated with Scotch, Geelong Grammar, and Trinity Grammar. These ones used school records and also immense numbers of interviews with people, gathering of anecdotes etc. But those schools have the advantage of large scale Old Boys networks, so they can easily find many of their ex-students. Again, this is hard to do with most state schools.

State schools do deserve a lot more attention from an historical perspective - but it is difficult to do this, unfortunately. It is an immense amount of work, and few historians are independently wealthy.

Private schools that I know used the cane from documentary evidence are:

Scotch College (though the tawse was used initially, the cane became more and more used over time partly because once the strap was officially adopted by the state system, a perception developed that it was a punishment for lower class boys, an image Scotch certainly did not want for itself - the strap did survive in the hands of a few teachers).

Melbourne Grammar

Geelong Grammar

Geelong College

Wesley Grammar

Xavier College (the strap was the primary method of corporal punishment at Xavier, but from the early twentieth century onwards, in response to the same 'class issues' as described above, Xavier also made use of the cane).

Mentone Grammar

Brighton Grammar

Haileybury College

Carey Baptist Grammar

Caulfield Grammar

Trinity Grammar

St Michael's Grammar School
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How many of these school still routinely cane students today? I have been lead to understand that the cane is still used regularly and quite extensively at Brighton Grammar---any truth to that?

I word fantasy springs to mind here. I think someone may be having you on. Students are well versed on their rights.

I'm afraid I don't know if any of those schools use the cane. There are still a handful of Victorian schools around that do use it (at least for the moment - as the article above indicates, legislation is currently in Parliament to outlaw it in Victoria, but independent schools generally don't publicise what methods of discipline they use. I can say that I've never heard of Brighton Grammar abolishing the cane - and I do know that some of the schools on that list have abolished - this does sometimes get publicised.

My last post should have read: The word fantasy springs to mind.
I initially started the reply with another response and and did not fully delete my original reply. My apologies for the mistake.

No Mike, it is still in use at a few schools. The Dando Sports Academy publicly acknowledges the use of the cane, and the AISV has confirmed its use in some of its member schools in articles in the Age and Herald Sun last year. It's use is a fact.

Students may know their rights - we certainly did when I was at school - but that doesn't always mean a lot. Most of us at Xavier supported the use of corporal punishment to be honest - better that than detention, or even worse, better that than penals.

Dean, I once worked at Xavier College back in the eighties. I wasn't on the academic staff but I did get a first hand knowledge of what I would refer to as "up stairs, downstairs" or class distinction.

The student dining area and staff dining area was situated on the first floor in those days. I worked for a contract company, that's why I was there. Friday night the students were given fish. The staff were given a menu with 3 choices. Fillet steak being one of them. Now if the students are paying boarding fees etc, why were they given fish and the staff given an a la carte menu? I can tell you there is a lot of difference in price, both wholesale and retail between fish and beef.

And it doesn't surprise me in the least that Xavier would indulge in CP practices. All Male staff, or at least that's what I noted when there and we all know about what priests have been up to lately in this country. I'm sure the higher beings would not condone their behavour and they will have a case to answer to later on. What gets me angry is that priests are supposed to be docile and caring of their fellow human beings but here they are caning and strapping with gay abandon.

This is why I turned my back on the church. Hypocracy at its best. Although I was never taught by brothers or priests, I did have quite a lot of experience with nuns.

In your post you make reference to the AISV and Dano Sports acadamy. I just find this a little difficult to digest as I can't see why the AISV would involve itself in this type of acknowlegement and or practice.

However, please feel free to enlighten me.

I'm not at all surprised that the boarders received an inferior menu to the staff (I was a day boy - I only ever ate across the bridge in the boarders dining room on a few special occasions). Yes, there were serious class distinctions in the school and staff were considered superior to boys, and I would assume they still are. The school is a very heirarchical environment - and honestly, I never had a real problem with that. It was part of the ethos of the school that over time you earned respect, you earned privileges, and special food has always been regarded as a form of privilege at Xavier - if you get a chance to read the history of Xavier - Xavier Portraits, originally published as Xavier: A Centenary Portrait - there's quite a bit of discussion about the role of food as a agent of privilege in the school in the early days.

But the reason the boys would have received fish on Friday is almost certainly religious. Xavier is a Catholic school, and significant numbers of the boarders come from very Catholic families. Canon Law still requires that Catholics eat fish on Fridays (Canon 1251) unless an alternative act of penance is served. (Many Catholics believe the rule on not eating meat on Fridays no longer exists - this is only true if an alternative penance is observed). Of course, most Catholics don't take the rule seriously - but the state's most prominent Catholic school really couldn't easily just ignore such a rule.

In terms of the staff, as adults, I would presume they were considered to be trusted to make an alternative penance if they wanted to eat steak. Whether that is true or not, I have no idea - but I don't believe a prominent Catholic school could have got away with serving meat to boarders on a Friday, without risking parental complaints.

Understand that while a lot of the boys attending Xavier (and especially the boarders) come from privileged backgrounds, the school doesn't want the boys to feel they are unusually privileged. It's considered important that these boys don't get 'spoiled'. Yes, their parents are paying high fees for them to attend the school - and that entitles them to a high class education, and if they are boarders to nourishing food. It does not entitle them to luxury.

Just for the record though - by my time at Xavier, corporal punishment was rarely administered by either the Priests or the Brothers. In fact, at the senior school where you worked, it was quite rarely administered anyway. It was administered far more often at the two prep schools - Burke Hall and Kostka Hall - and was normally administered by lay staff. We did have one Brother at Kostka who was rather strap happy.

As for the AISV - maybe you're thinking of a different organisation than I am, because the reason the AISV is involved doesn't strike me as at all strange. The AISV I am referring to is the Association of Independent Schools of Victoria - the state's largest representative body for private schools, with about 200 member schools. The reason the AISV has commented on this issue, is because they have taken the lead in representing the interests of private schools in relation to Victoria's new Education and Training Act. Newspaper articles published on the new Act last year, mentioned the banning of corporal punishment as one feature of the new Act, and so the AISV commented on that.

One example is from the Herald Sun of September 16 2005, p. 11 ('State hails class act: School leaving age up, strap banned').

Quote:

"But Association of Independent Schools chief executive, Michelle Green, said individual schools and communities should be allowed to determing their discipline policy and whether that includes corporal punishment.

"It is widely known corporal punishment is still used at some private schools."

The article can be seen here - http://www.corpun.com/aus00509.htm

Other relevant webpages.

http://www.corpun.com/aus00409.htm

http://www.corpun.com/aus00502.htm#15193

An article about the Dando Sports Academy - http://www.corpun.com/aus00503.htm

I've just been thinking - did you perhaps think I was talking about the AIS - Australian Institute of Sport? Yes, it would be very odd if they'd made any comments about this, and considering I referred to the Dando Sports Academy at the same time, I could easily understand how somebody might jump to that conclusion - the AIS is a much better known organisation than the AISV. Just for the record, the Dando Sports Academy is really just a somewhat unusual private school - it makes a great deal of use of sport within it's curriculum, hence its name, but in essence it's just an alternative private school.

I'm afraid I don't know if any of those schools use the cane. There are still a handful of Victorian schools around that do use it (at least for the moment - as the article above indicates, legislation is currently in Parliament to outlaw it in Victoria, but independent schools generally don't publicise what methods of discipline they use. I can say that I've never heard of Brighton Grammar abolishing the cane - and I do know that some of the schools on that list have abolished - this does sometimes get publicised.
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I think the historian knows far more than he is willing to disclose. The loyalty of Old Boys to the system seems almost cultish. So much so that things that do exist are believed by others not to exist simply because those involved keep their mouths so tightly closed. One would think that given the esteem and status at which many members of these elite schools hold themselves, they would be more forthright, courageous and willing to stand up for what they say they believe in, rather than maintain the status quo and essentially deceive by their silence.

I'm sorry, but I don't know, and I object to the implication that I do. These schools generally do keep their use of corporal punishment quiet, and I'm not a member of any inner sanctum or anything like that. I know the histories of the schools very well, but I'm not that well informed about current practices.

I admit that even if I did know, I might not feel comfortable putting that information on this forum - but if that was the case, I would say that was the case.

Do I feel some loyalty to the school I attended, and the network of which it is a part? Yes, I do. It gave me an education and experiences of a type that it is unlikely I could have got elsewhere, and I am grateful for that. But that's not influencing my answer to your question, because quite simply, I don't know the answer.

I hear rumours that certain schools still use the cane - but I'm not prepared mere rumours. There's a few schools I know that have abolished - but I don't know the status at other schools (and frankly, abolition doesn't always seem to last anyway).

I'm sorry, but I don't know, and I object to the implication that I do.
__________________________________________________________________________

I am sorry if I gave offense but I am sure you will admit that the secrecy and loyalty surrounding those who have a connection to these independent schools protect them with dedication that would make for excellent fodder for a new Dan Brown novel.

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These schools generally do keep their use of corporal punishment quiet, and I'm not a member of any inner sanctum or anything like that. I know the histories of the schools very well, but I'm not that well informed about current practices.

I admit that even if I did know, I might not feel comfortable putting that information on this forum - but if that was the case, I would say that was the case.

Do I feel some loyalty to the school I attended, and the network of which it is a part? Yes, I do. It gave me an education and experiences of a type that it is unlikely I could have got elsewhere, and I am grateful for that. But that's not influencing my answer to your question, because quite simply, I don't know the answer.
__________________________________________________________________________________

So honestly tell me, do you know if they still use the cane today at the independent school that you attended? And to what extent? Is other forms of CP than the cane used with younger boys? As an Old Boy with a strong connection to your school, you surely must have a pretty good idea of what goes on there. Do you not?

To Dean and Halliwell, thanks for the informative comments. I think we have all but exhausted this topic and now is the time to put this thread to bed.

Dean, I don't think we will ever receive any facts regarding corporal punishment being used in independant schools. They seem to act like the Masonic Lodge who always maintain this;

"We are not a Secret Society. We are a Society with Secrets!".

Eventually these independant schools will have to fall into line with government policy, it is just a matter of when. The Victorian Government needs to take a stronger stance on this issue. No one should be above the law. If there is a law against the use of corporal punishment in Victoria and it is not followed to the letter, any school breaking the law should be charged for doing so. With the threat of heavy fines and/or imprisonment as a deterent I'm sure all independant schools would cease their practices very quickly.


Thank you for the links. I will most certainly have a look at them.

NB.
You are correct, I was misled by the reference to Dano Sports Acadamy and the initials of the AISV.

I am sorry if I gave offense but I am sure you will admit that the secrecy and loyalty surrounding those who have a connection to these independent schools protect them with dedication that would make for excellent fodder for a new Dan Brown novel.

Among some people, yes. Others take it far less seriously. I'm probably pretty much in the middle. I still get the Xavier News, I still get the letters asking for donations and I have attended a couple of Old Boys functions.

I wouldn't embarass my school if I could avoid it, but nor would I conceal factual information about it, if I knew that information without a very good reason.

So honestly tell me, do you know if they still use the cane today at the independent school that you attended? And to what extent? Is other forms of CP than the cane used with younger boys? As an Old Boy with a strong connection to your school, you surely must have a pretty good idea of what goes on there. Do you not?

No, I don't know.

I wouldn't be surprised if the cane still existed and was occasionally used. The strap - which was the most used form of corporal punishment - was abolished in 1990 (while I was at the senior school), but I don't know the status of the cane - which existed in theory, but was used very rarely. I also wouldn't be surprised at all if smacking existed at the two prep schools. But I don't know.

Yes, I still have some connection to the school - but this isn't something that comes up in normal conversation.

Eventually these independant schools will have to fall into line with government policy, it is just a matter of when. The Victorian Government needs to take a stronger stance on this issue. No one should be above the law. If there is a law against the use of corporal punishment in Victoria and it is not followed to the letter, any school breaking the law should be charged for doing so. With the threat of heavy fines and/or imprisonment as a deterent I'm sure all independant schools would cease their practices very quickly.

The thing is - there isn't a law against corporal punishment in Victorian schools. There never has been. There is a Ministerial Regulation (first issued in 1983) that bans corporal punishment in state schools, but that regulation specifically states that it only applies to state schools:

*****

PART 5 - DISCIPLINE IN STATE SCHOOLS

25. Application

This Part only applies to State schools.

26. Restraint from danger

A member of the staff of a State school may take any reasonable action that is immediately required to restrain a student of the school from acts or behaviour dangerous to the member of staff, the student or any other person.

27. Corporal punishment not permitted

A member of the staff of a State school must not administer corporal punishment to any State school student.

*****

(Education Regulations, 2000)

Independent schools are certainly not above the law. But there isn't yet a law that bans corporal punishment.

In all probability, there soon will be. A new Education and Training Act is currently being debated in Parliament and that Act does contain a prohibition on the registration of schools using corporal punishment (which will basically lead to an eventual ban - independent schools have to re-register every six year or so, and cannot operate without registration), and it's expected to pass Parliament very shortly. If it passes (and that is almost certain), then I would be very surprised if any independent school failed to obey such a law - and if they did, I would support the full weight of the law coming down on that school.

But no such law exists yet.

What about the cane in South Australian public schools.When was it banned and how often did it get used? Were 6 cuts across a boys backside a standard punishment?

My wife is South Australian and was educated in public schools. She said she never saw a cane used in any of her schools.

Well, it was definitely used in South Australian schools. I know of a few croweaters who experienced it and the regulations certainly allowed for it.

However South Australia had the strictest regulations on its use. Unlike state schools in other states where often a significant number of teachers were allowed to administer corporal punishment, the regulations in South Australia limited its use to the Principal and one other teacher authorised by the Principal in any school. So if a Principal disagreed with corporal punishment, he could prevent its use in that school - and even if they allowed it, there were only two teachers allowed to administer it, unlike the case in some other states where a significant number of teachers could have the power, in some cases, even if the Principal didn't like it.

Incidentally - an unintended consequence of this regulation meant that South Australia was the only state where secondary school girls in state schools were most likely to be corporally punished by male teachers. Victoria and Queensland banned the corporal punishment of girls in state schools altogether (it doesn't mean it didn't happen - if nobody complained a teacher could get away with it), and NSW, the ACT, and Western Australia banned its use for girls over 12 (and Western Australia required a female teacher to administer it even if a girl was under 12).

South Australia discouraged the use of corporal punishment on girls but did not actually ban it. So it could be used in exceptional circumstances. And because only two teachers could administer it and in nearly all cases, those two teachers were male, this created a situation that girls were corporally punished by male teachers in some cases.

But overall, corporal punishment was probably rarer in South Australian state schools than state schools in other states. Added to this was the fact that South Australia allowed for the judicial corporal punishment of boys up until the early 1970s, and it probably changed the attitude towards corporal punishment in that state - when boys who burned down buildings were caned by order of Magistrates, it probably seemed a little absurd to be using it on boys who had forgotten their homework.

My knowledge of South Australian school practices is less extensive than my knowledge of Victorian practice, but here is what I can tell you.

First of all, I assume that you are talking about State Schools when you use the term public schools - schools that are fully funded by the government. That's the most common meaning of the term in Australia, but it's not the only meaning - strictly speaking a number of the elite independent schools are more properly referred to as Public Schools for historical reasons. That useage is less common in Australia than it used to be, but it's still around in some places.

Corporal punishment was banned in state schools in South Australia around 1990 - it's hard to give an exact date because it was phased out gradually from the late 1980s onwards. It was definitely completely out of use by 1993 - and it looks like it was virtually gone, if not gone, by 1990. I haven't been able to find a date for a ban in private schools in that state - apparently there has been one, and its occurred since 1997, but I can't find any regulation or Act that actually shows its happened. I think I'm going to need to contact DECS to ask what is going on.

As for how often it was used - that's a hard question to answer. In general, as mentioned in a message I just posted here, it was probably used less often than in other states - but in particular individual schools, it could have been used far more often than the norm. A lot depended on the Principal's attitude. If a Principal disagreed with corporal punishment, he could basically ban it in a school - a power he (nearly always he) didn't necessarily have in other states.

South Australian regulations laid down no specific method as to how corporal punishment could be administered (though they stated it could not injure or degrade) - six strokes of the cane on the buttocks would probably have been seen as a severe punishment at the top end of the scale - but would have been perfectly permissable.

Hmmm, Mike, I thought this thread was closed. Or only to those who ask too many questions about behaviors others would rather keep in the shadows.

Halliwell, I am at an age where nothing surprises me. I think it is a coat of many colours. I believe we need to be clear when we write about schools. We need to include in posts whether the schools are public, private or independant to avoid confusion.

In my earlier dispatch I can only go by what my wife told me when she was at school. She attended Graigmore High in SA in the seventies.

In regards to stories we have from our friends and collegues, perhaps this little ditty is something to think about when it comes to authenticity.

I once asked a Kiwi collegue if she knew Rachel Hunter. I was just joking with her at the time but her answer was, "I don't know her personally, but I do know someone who does!". The point is do you believe what you are told and do you believe what you read? We all know someone who knows something about a certain topic. Just how much is the question.

The same applies to friends and collegues. Do you trust them to tell you the truth, or do you pass their stories off as a figment of the imagination?

This story comes from a conversation I was involved in once. I lived in Adelaide for 3 months whilst in the armed forces and met my wife. I won't to go into too much detail but being single I lived in quarters on base, sharing a hut with 4 South Australian recruits.

These young men ( and they were young compared to me) had not long been out of school,(enlisting in 1977 at 17) and they talked about their previous schools. One of the guys started talking about CP however, not of them mentioned the cane being used at their schools.

Dean and I seem to have friends with different stories so I think they cancell each other out in the end which puts us back to square one. What do we know, and how much of it is true?

The thing is I don't just base things on what I've heard from other people.

I have some access to things like official policy documents, school records - being a professional historian working for a company that gets commissioned to write histories of institutions including schools means I can often get access to material that isn't generally available to the public.

I also have very easy access to every academic library in Victoria and more importantly my work requires me to spend considerable time working in those libraries so I can easily look things up - like school histories - and there are a few concerning South Australian schools, including some state schools.

One thing I have noticed is how people's experiences can differ considerably depending on which schools they attended - while you do get commonalities across the systems, you can get a wide scope of differences as well.

Also - just rereading your message - era can make a difference as well.

This isn't something I have researched in any detail - it's on my list to research because I think it's potentially interesting - but I haven't got around to it yet.

You mention that some of your information was obtained from men who were aged around 17 in 1977 - so boys who would have gone through secondary school in the 1970s.

I have seen references to a serious attempt by the Dunstan government of South Australia which held office from 1970 to 1979 to abolish corporal punishment in state schools. I've never found out the details of exactly what happened. I know corporal punishment was back in use in South Australia by 1983, because there was very considerable fanfare about the fact that Victoria was the only state without it in state schools that year - but I'm unclear if Dunstan failed to ban it, or if the ban was overturned (I have a legal guide from 1978 in front of me that is very clear on the fact that it is legal in South Australia as in other states - so any ban can't have lasted long). It seems to me possible though that boys whose secondary schooling was in the 1970s in South Australia might well have had a somewhat unusual experience in comparison to boys of other eras if there were serious or semi-successful attempts at abolition at the time.

(I'm also wondering if the references I have seen might have confused the banning of judicial corporal punishment of boys in 1971 with a ban on its use in schools - like I say, this is something I want to research.)

Dean and I seem to have friends with different stories so I think they cancell each other out in the end which puts us back to square one. What do we know, and how much of it is true?
----------------------------

Sorry but I think that is a cop out. Victoria is a real place. The independent schools exist. In fact the 13 are the pride of Victoria if not Australia. There is story upon story around the internet about how caning does exist and is practiced today in these schools. A purported deputy headmaster of one of these 13 has a newsgroup on Yahoo that has been in existence for over 5 years where he anonymously publishes statistics about the number of canings in his school, extolling the virtue of the practice---even has graphs and charts by grade and offense.

One hears continually of the support in these independent schools for corporal punishment, yet no one, even those who are Old Boys at these schools and who still maintain a connection with these schools or perhaps even has a friend or relative who has a child attending one of these schools knows anything for sure? No one has any fact at his disposal about any of this. Or can answer any question about it? That is they have no fact that they are willing to disclose nor any question that they are willing to answer.

As I said previously, this is stuff of which Dan Brown's books are made. There seems a conspiracy of silence to protect the schools' practice of CP. At best this is bizarre. At worst it is hypocritical of those who support the practice to be ashamed of it or to be unwilling to support its use in public. Shouldn't one expect a more open and honest approach from institutions that claim to be turning out the best in their society?

Just for the record, I think you mean the 11, not the 13.

Scotch College
Geelong Grammar
Melbourne Grammar
Wesley College
Xavier College
Geelong College
Carey Grammar
Haileybury College
Caulfield Grammar
Brighton Grammar
St Kevin's College

Those are the eleven members of the Associated Public Schools of Victoria - I can't think of any significant grouping of thirteen schools.

As for them being the pride of Australia - they are among the pride of Australia in terms of education - but schools like Sydney Grammar, the King's School, Prince Alfred College would rather object to the Victorian schools being described as the pride of Australia - not to mention quite a number of girls schools.

And while those of us who attended them take a great pride in these schools, a lot of other Australians view them a bit differently, often as relics of the past, and in some ways they are right.

I have to say though, I'm not sure why you think these schools should be as public as you seem to think they should be. What business is it of yours what goes on in those schools anyway?

Lotta could be right - many things Australian are hard to believe - the kangaroo for example. Those who believe in wombats might also believe the cane is still used in select Victorian schools. (It is amazing what digital effects can achieve).

And a closed mouth catches no flies.

Dean, I have read your post and I offer some thoughts and constructive critism. Firstly, I think it would be a good idea if you did conduct some research and print your findings here. This would settle a lot of speculation on the SA debate.

Secondly, Your reference to being a professional researcher, do you realise how many times you have said this?

I have some access to things like official policy documents, school records - being a professional historian. Dated Feb 24.

This dated Feb 21: I'm an historian by training and profession, specialising in institutional histories, including school history's. As a hobby, alongside my work, I specifically research the history of corporal punishment in Australian schools.

In another message dated Feb 21:As a professional historian, it is my dream at some point to be able to write a proper and definitive history of school corporal punishment in Australia.

I don't wish to embarrass you. Perhaps you forgot you already told us. As I know what you do, I shall tell you what I do. I am a Workplace Trainer and Assessor so I do know about research and how to undertake the task. I also work for myself so there is a large difference re; self employed versus working for a boss.

I think Halliwell misunderstood the content of my last post so I will refresh his memory. My reference was to Dean and I having friends with stories which relates to South Australia only, and the difference in reports from these people. My friends are South Australian so I hope this will clarify where I got my reports from.

The other issue I wish to clarify is my story of the 17 year old guys I shared quarters with. They didn't receive the cane at their schools as they said, but they did say they received the strap. Interesting isn't it?

And for those reading KK's post. Very funny KK. Nearly as funny as the English jokes we share here. Something like;
How do you know when a plane load of English people arive at the airport? When the engines stop, the whining sound continues! A joke by Warren Mitchell after he became an Australian resident.

And I think you may mean Bunyip's, not Wombats. As for many things Australian being hard to believe, some peoples ignorance is only surpassed by their stupidity. Wouldn't you agree?
I'm certain you're not one of those armchair critics.

Dean, I have read your post and I offer some thoughts and constructive critism. Firstly, I think it would be a good idea if you did conduct some research and print your findings here. This would settle a lot of speculation on the SA debate.

As I have said, this is something I would like to research and it is on my list. But this is a hobby and it has to take a second place to the work I do to put food on the table. Having said that, I will probably be in Melbourne's Educational Resource Centre early next week, and I'll see if I can find anything with a quick search. There might be something easy to get. The only substantial material I have currently with me on South Australian schools relates to one of South Australia's major independent schools, Prince Alfred College - they used the cane but independent school practice doesn't tell you anything about state school practice.

Secondly, Your reference to being a professional researcher, do you realise how many times you have said this?

Yes, I do and it's quite deliberate and I'm not embarassed about it.

I've been on this forum some time - a couple of years at least I would say - and I don't assume that anyone reading one of my current posts will necessarily have read anything that I have written before. So in cases where I think the fact that I am a professional researcher and historian with a specific interest in the history of corporal punishment is potentially relevant, I say that I am. Sometimes topics on this forum can be resurrected after a period of some months - and in those cases, new people may well have joined the forum. I find it best practice simply to mention where my knowledge comes from, just in case somebody new is reading a meesage.

I don't wish to embarrass you. Perhaps you forgot you already told us. As I know what you do, I shall tell you what I do. I am a Workplace Trainer and Assessor so I do know about research and how to undertake the task. I also work for myself so there is a large difference re; self employed versus working for a boss.

Sure - lots of people know how to research. It's not at all unusual. All my being a professional historian means in this regard though is that I can sometimes access material which isn't avaialable to the general public (there's a lot of stuff stored in stacks at the university libraries) and that the nature of my work requires me to spend quite a lot of time in places like academic libraries. Most of the research is pretty standard stuff - access and opportunity is what differs.

The other issue I wish to clarify is my story of the 17 year old guys I shared quarters with. They didn't receive the cane at their schools as they said, but they did say they received the strap. Interesting isn't it?

Interesting, yes. But not surprising.

As I said in an earlier post, South Australia set no regulations as to what method or methods of corporal punishment could be used in its state schools. This is in contrast to New South Wales and Western Australia that specifically stated that only the cane could be used and only on the palms of the hands, Victoria that specifically stated that only the strap could be used and only on the palms of the hands, and Tasmania which specifically stated that either the strap or the cane could be used - but only on the palms of the hands. Queensland and South Australia however made no regulations as to instrument or as to where that instrument could be used. In Queensland, the cane dominated, though the strap wasn't unheard of. In South Australia, both the cane and the strap were used in different schools - which method was used was largely at the discretion of the Principal. The same applied as to whether the punishment was administered on the hand or the buttocks - no regulation, the Principal had discretion.

Jackie's question specifically asked about the cane, so that is the question I responded to. But the strap was also used in South Australian state schools.

Yes, I did mean 11 not 13---my error.

__________________________________________________________________
Dean wrote:

I have to say though, I'm not sure why you think these schools should be as public as you seem to think they should be. What business is it of yours what goes on in those schools anyway?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

And I have to say though, I'm not sure why you think these schools should be able to operate under a veil of secrecy, particularly when it comes to an issue like caning little boys. Makes me wonder what they have to hide. They certainly like positive publicity and are not hesitant to tell the world of their accomplishments in other areas, are they? It is on this issue of CP that they get real secretive and very silent and don't want the general public to know what is going on. Makes me suspicious. Either there is something to hide or they are just hypocrites who will not stand up for what they believe in.

Mike wrote (in part):

And I think you may mean Bunyip's, not Wombats. As for many things Australian being hard to believe, some people's ignorance is only surpassed by their stupidity. Wouldn't you agree?

Yes, I do agree - that is really what my post was about - people with limited experience and knowledge of the World are at a disadvantage when it comes to assessing veracity. One of the problems is that the common and the ordinary is not usually specifically documented. Years later it is hard to determine what ordinary people thought and did. Oftentimes, the clues come from casual mentions in personal letters and news accounts. For example, If the punishment strap is common place and in everyday use it is only likely to be mentioned casually or in connection with an extraordinary event, or perhaps in a work of fiction. Many movies and TV stories set in past times do a lot of harm by being quite careless in portraying past life and attitudes. USA original material is especially bad in this regard. Good books including novels can counter this. Mark Twain, for example, is believed to provide an accurate account of life and attitudes on the Mississippi at a certain time in history.

Quite a few postings to this forum are fictional. Some are not.

According to a former Prime Minister the steady flow of migrants into Australia had the advantage of raising the average IQ of both Australia and the rest of the world. Untrue, of course.

"According to a former Prime Minister the steady flow of migrants into Australia had the advantage of raising the average IQ"

Every kangaroo born in Australia raises the average IQ!

And I have to say though, I'm not sure why you think these schools should be able to operate under a veil of secrecy, particularly when it comes to an issue like caning little boys. Makes me wonder what they have to hide. They certainly like positive publicity and are not hesitant to tell the world of their accomplishments in other areas, are they? It is on this issue of CP that they get real secretive and very silent and don't want the general public to know what is going on. Makes me suspicious. Either there is something to hide or they are just hypocrites who will not stand up for what they believe in.

I don't believe these schools should be able to operated under a veil of secrecy and I don't believe that they do. Your average independent school here gives out far more information about its general policies and practices than your average state school does. My old school publishes the Xavierian once a year, Xavier News four times a year, I think, it issues prospectuses - these schools produce a lot of information for public consumption.

They don't generally seem to outline their disciplinary policies and procedures - but nor do state schools.

I don't agree with a veil of secrecy. I do agree with privacy. When I was 13, we went on a school trip to Canberra - we found ourselves being followed around by a TV news crew. Some people seem to think that the kids who go to these schools are public fodder. Well, they're not, and they shouldn't be.

Dean wrote:

They don't generally seem to outline their disciplinary policies and procedures - but nor do state schools.

I don't agree with a veil of secrecy. I do agree with privacy.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Xavier puts out a lot of information about their school at their website...but not one iota of information regarding their policies particularly as they affect discipline or corporal punishment, even though the policy is referred to in the application form.

State schools don't have to discuss the issue of CP as they don't cane little boys or girls. They can't, so it is a non-issue for them. It is not for independent schools.

If such a policy allowing CP of students exists at Xavier and other Independent School (and we both know they do) then it goes beyond privacy to the level of secrecy that it is never mentioned anywhere, that there are no official statistic available on the practice and that everyone seems to have taken a blood oath of secrecy not to talk about it.

Dean I sent you email privately of statistics about CP that supposedly is going on at one of the independent schools and being reported on a group by one of its administrators which you ignored much the way you ignore issues I raise here that you do not want to address. I cannot imagine if I am aware of this particular group that you are not. The level of this CP reported could not possibly be unknown in independent school circles or in the formal organization of independent schools (forget the name AISA or something like that). You guys are on each other's campuses all the time if only for sporting events. I find it really difficult to believe that no one knows anything.


The loyalty and dedication of Old Boys who went through these institutions and who often send their children to these institutions or even work in these institutions is astounding to me. "Cult" is the only word that comes to my mind...a closed, protected, secret society where the cane is as important as the soccer ball or the textbook and where there seems to be an indoctrination that the cane/strap is the centerpiece of an organized, disciplined school

I find all this both repelling and fascinating because it is so alien to me.


I honestly don't expect a response as this is both of us chasing our tails. I will question and you will know nothing about what I am asking and my jaw will drop open and we start again. Best to just let it go.

Xavier puts out a lot of information about their school at their website...but not one iota of information regarding their policies particularly as they affect discipline or corporal punishment, even though the policy is referred to in the application form.

So while they put a lot of information on their website, the fact that they don't put the particular bit you are interested in on the website is an indication of secrecy?

To me a secretive school wouldn't make any information public - it seems to me you want everything to be public.

State schools don't have to discuss the issue of CP as they don't cane little boys or girls. They can't, so it is a non-issue for them. It is not for independent schools.

No, but state schools do suspend an awful lot of students - and just yesterday the newspapers here had an article pointing out the damage that suspension does to students.

"The report, prepared for the Criminology Research Council,
emphasised the importance of keeping students connected to the
school community, suggesting that suspension disconnects them from
a positive social environment and may "increase their exposure to
other risk factors"."

So - why don't state schools have to discuss their policies on suspension? And if they don't have to, why should we hold independent schools to a higher standard than we do state schools in terms of expecting them to publicise things.

If such a policy allowing CP of students exists at Xavier and other Independent School (and we both know they do) then it goes beyond privacy to the level of secrecy that it is never mentioned anywhere, that there are no official statistic available on the practice and that everyone seems to have taken a blood oath of secrecy not to talk about it.

There's no official statistics because no official body bothers to gather them. I believe - I am not 100% sure but I believe - that independent schools are required to make their punishment records accessible to the Registered Schools Board (the only school that I know uses corporal punishment, the Dando Sports Academy has said that this is their practice). So gathering official figures probably wouldn't be hard if somebody authorised wanted to do it.

Dean I sent you email privately of statistics about CP that supposedly is going on at one of the independent schools and being reported on a group by one of its administrators which you ignored much the way you ignore issues I raise here that you do not want to address. I cannot imagine if I am aware of this particular group that you are not. The level of this CP reported could not possibly be unknown in independent school circles or in the formal organization of independent schools (forget the name AISA or something like that). You guys are on each other's campuses all the time if only for sporting events. I find it really difficult to believe that no one knows anything.

No, I didn't ignore it - I haven't checked my e-mail account in the last few days. I don't check it that often, because hardly anybody ever sends me anything - it's generally just full of spam.

I've just checked the account, and I now see your messages - so I will read them and see what they say. I suspect I've seen the statistics you're talking about before because I'm pretty sure they come from an e-mail group I'm on from what you say here.

The organisation I think you are talking about is AHISA - Association of Heads of Independent Schools of Australia. It's only one of the organisations of independent schools - but it does contain all or nearly all of the major independent schools in the whole country, and a fair number of the minor ones.

And I would suspect that some people in AHISA would know what's going on - but I'm not part of AHISA. The last time I set foot on any AHISA campus other than my old school would have been when I was doing sport there in 1992 - I think a basketball match at Camberwell Grammar would have been the last time.

The loyalty and dedication of Old Boys who went through these institutions and who often send their children to these institutions or even work in these institutions is astounding to me. "Cult" is the only word that comes to my mind...a closed, protected, secret society where the cane is as important as the soccer ball or the textbook and where there seems to be an indoctrination that the cane/strap is the centerpiece of an organized, disciplined school

This is the second time I've seen reference to a 'secret society' and I really don't know where people get that from. These schools are not secret societies.

I have A Deepening Roar on my desk at the moment. This is the most recent official history of Scotch College - it came out in 2001. This book is available in libraries, and I'm pretty sure you can still buy it in some bookshops. Scotch is the oldest of Victoria's elite schools, and probably one of the most stereotypical of them.

I look in the index of this book and see 17 separate references to caning. Another 6 references to corporal punishment in general. Then are 10 references to homosexuality, 6 to masturbation, 6 to suicide.

The book has accounts of a boarding Housemaster accused of sexually molesting boys (the investigation was never completed because the Master concerned died suddenly soon after the allegations were made - many people suspected suicide).

Scotch's history is unusually frank for a history of the major schools. But all the major schools have publically accessible public histories and nearly all of them go into the schools history's warts and all. In some cases up until quite recent events.

These schools are very public about a great many issues.

Dean wrote:

So while they put a lot of information on their website, the fact that they don't put the particular bit you are interested in on the website is an indication of secrecy?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A rather important bit of information for anyone thinking of sending their child there, don't you think? And despite their willingness to share an awful lot about the school in a public forum, it is interesting that this particular topic is the one never discussed despite it being a rather important one, I would think, in choosing a school. Again it is hypocritical to be in favor of school CP, practice it, and then pretend like it doesn't happen. It's telling lies through omission.
___________________________________________________________________________________

Dean wrote:

To me a secretive school wouldn't make any information public - it seems to me you want everything to be public.
------------------------------------------------------------
Don't distort. The discussion has been about CP. I am not saying they are secretive about other things. In fact I have said that they are very eager to let the world know of their accomplishments. It is on the issue of CP that they are secretive. They are protecting no one's privacy, they are trying to take attention away from the fact that CP is used. They do it through omission and what appears to be a concerted effort on the part of just about everyone involved to avoid discussion, deny knowledge and pretend it doesn't exist.
________________________________________________________________________________

Dean wrote: No, but state schools do suspend an awful lot of students - and just yesterday the newspapers here had an article pointing out the damage that suspension does to students.
---------------------------------------------
The statement is irrelevant. The fact that you know about suspensions in state schools and that it is reported and discussed in the press is what is relevant. You seem eager to discuss the failings of the state schools disciplinary failures but very hesitant to even acknowledge the type of discipline used presently at independent schools.
________________________________________________________________________________

Dean said:

So - why don't state schools have to discuss their policies on suspension?
-------------------------------------------------
Apparently that information is public and discussed if it is in the press.

_________________________________________________________________________

Dean said:

And if they don't have to, why should we hold independent schools to a higher standard than we do state schools in terms of expecting them to publicise things.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

I am not holding independent schools to a higher standard. You are holding them to a lesser standard, one that allows them to high their disciplinary practices in secret so that there is no public scrutiny or question.
___________________________________________________________________

Dean said:

There's no official statistics because no official body bothers to gather them.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Are you trying to tell me now that no official record of corporal punishment kept at Independent Schools that use it by anyone? Come on. For legal reasons alone to protect the schools, I am sure careful records are kept and strict procedures must be followed.
_____________________________________________________________________________
Dean said:

I believe - I am not 100% sure but I believe - that independent schools are required to make their punishment records accessible to the Registered Schools Board (the only school that I know uses corporal punishment, the Dando Sports Academy has said that this is their practice). So gathering official figures probably wouldn't be hard if somebody authorised wanted to do it.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You and I both are aware that CP is used at a number of those 11 Independent schools. I thought better or you to out and out deny knowing that it occurs. Please don't tell me that you don't know that CP is used at your school and others of the 11. You can deny it all you want in public but you and I know better.
_________________________________________________________________________________

Dean said:
I've just checked the account, and I now see your messages - so I will read them and see what they say. I suspect I've seen the statistics you're talking about before because I'm pretty sure they come from an e-mail group I'm on from what you say here.
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Of course they do. And of course you are on that group. Are you saying that the moderator of that group is a liar and has fabricated everything he has put there for the last 5 years? And if the statistic and number he has provided are accurate then clearly you do know that CP goes on in Independent Schools in Victoria and to a significant extent at least in that particular school.
_________________________________________________________________________

Dean said:

The organisation I think you are talking about is AHISA - Association of Heads of Independent Schools of Australia. It's only one of the organisations of independent schools - but it does contain all or nearly all of the major independent schools in the whole country, and a fair number of the minor ones.
-------------------------------------------------------

No the group to which I am referring is a group of the 11.
______________________________________________________________________________

Dean said:

This is the second time I've seen reference to a 'secret society' and I really don't know where people get that from. These schools are not secret societies.
-------------------------------------------------------------------

These schools behave like secret societies when dealing with the matter of their present use of CP with students.
__________________________________________________________________________________

Dean wrote: I have A Deepening Roar on my desk at the moment. This is the most recent official history of Scotch College - it came out in 2001. This book is available in libraries, and I'm pretty sure you can still buy it in some bookshops. Scotch is the oldest of Victoria's elite schools, and probably one of the most stereotypical of them.

I look in the index of this book and see 17 separate references to caning. Another 6 references to corporal punishment in general. Then are 10 references to homosexuality, 6 to masturbation, 6 to suicide.

The book has accounts of a boarding Housemaster accused of sexually molesting boys (the investigation was never completed because the Master concerned died suddenly soon after the allegations were made - many people suspected suicide).

Scotch's history is unusually frank for a history of the major schools. But all the major schools have publically accessible public histories and nearly all of them go into the schools history's warts and all. In some cases up until quite recent events.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

And does Scotch College admit in this book to the use of CP in 2001?

Again, if there is not hypocrisy running rampant here and CP is thought to be such a good thing, why are these independent schools so careful to make sure that they never mention it?

Okay...now it's your serve--- maintain the need to protect the "privacy" of these schools again, deny knowledge of CP being used at Indpeendent Schools and act surprised that anyone would consider this all a very odd way for prestigious educational facilities to act. Just know that I know better and have information that I am not at liberty to disclose and would never dream of doing so for true privacy reasons. CP is alive and well and practiced in Independent Schools in Victoria. The only real question is when will these schools ever have the courage to openly admit it and defend the practice? Perhaps before it is ultimately banned there. Perhaps not.

A rather important bit of information for anyone thinking of sending their child there, don't you think? And despite their willingness to share an awful lot about the school in a public forum, it is interesting that this particular topic is the one never discussed despite it being a rather important one, I would think, in choosing a school. Again it is hypocritical to be in favor of school CP, practice it, and then pretend like it doesn't happen. It's telling lies through omission.

Honestly, no, I don't think it's a rather important bit of information for anyone thinking of sending their child to school there. It certainly wasn't anything my parents considered in deciding where I went to school, nor is it anything I have ever heard of anyone considering. Every year a number of guides to schools are published here that tell parents about particular schools to help them work out what school they should send their children to - 'The Good Schools Guide', 'The Right School For Your Child', 'Choosing A School For Your Child' and similar. The first of these books started coming out here in the early 1970s, and over the years I've read through quite a few of them. In all that time, I have never seen such a guide address the issue of corporal punishment in schools or name schools that use it - even at times when the use of corporal punishment in a school was public knowledge. This isn't a major issue for most parents. But besides anything else, what is put on a website is only the basics. Schools provide more information when they start getting serious inquiries from parents. Such parents are entitled to more detailed information than I think the general public has a right to expect.

Don't distort. The discussion has been about CP. I am not saying they are secretive about other things. In fact I have said that they are very eager to let the world know of their accomplishments. It is on the issue of CP that they are secretive. They are protecting no one's privacy, they are trying to take attention away from the fact that CP is used. They do it through omission and what appears to be a concerted effort on the part of just about everyone involved to avoid discussion, deny knowledge and pretend it doesn't exist.

They make public the information that the public has a reason to know about. The general public doesn't have any need whatsoever to know what forms of discipline are used in a school. It's none of their business.

When I was at secondary school - at the start of the era in which corporal punishment had been banned in most schools here, nearly twenty years ago now, I would have been mortified if the kids I went to youth group with knew I was still at risk of getting the strap at school. It would have embarassed me for them to know that. It wouldn't have been any of their business.

The statement is irrelevant. The fact that you know about suspensions in state schools and that it is reported and discussed in the press is what is relevant. You seem eager to discuss the failings of the state schools disciplinary failures but very hesitant to even acknowledge the type of discipline used presently at independent schools.

It's not irrelevant. If you expect independent schools to openly disclose how discipline is imposed in their schools, you should expect it of state schools as well.

Apparently that information is public and discussed if it is in the press.

Yes, and the fact that some independent schools use corporal punishment is also public and in the press.

Melbourne has two major daily newspapers - The Age and the Herald Sun

Articles stating that corporal punishment is used in some private schools have appeared in The Age on the 13th February 2005, on the 16th March 2005, the 16th September 2005, and in the Herald Sun on the 16th September 2005.

The fact that some independent schools use corporal punishment is public and in the press. Details of which schools these are (with one exception are not).

Just as the fact that some state schools use suspension is public and in the press. But again, details of which schools these are, are not.

Schools here generally do not discuss their disciplinary policies publically. That is true of all schools. It's not just true of elite private schools.

I am not holding independent schools to a higher standard. You are holding them to a lesser standard, one that allows them to high their disciplinary practices in secret so that there is no public scrutiny or question.

No, I'm not holding them to a lesser standard. The day state schools are required to publically discuss their disciplinary methods, I'll accept that independent schools should do the same.

You and I both are aware that CP is used at a number of those 11 Independent schools. I thought better or you to out and out deny knowing that it occurs. Please don't tell me that you don't know that CP is used at your school and others of the 11. You can deny it all you want in public but you and I know better.

I am not out and out denying that it occurs. I am saying that there is only one particular school that I know of that uses corporal punishment. That is, only one school I could name - and have named. I am virtually certain there are other, and they may well include some of the 11 APS schools - but I don't know for certain if that is true of any of them.

Of course they do. And of course you are on that group. Are you saying that the moderator of that group is a liar and has fabricated everything he has put there for the last 5 years? And if the statistic and number he has provided are accurate then clearly you do know that CP goes on in Independent Schools in Victoria and to a significant extent at least in that particular school.

I don't believe he's a liar, but I also don't know who he is (I have my suspicions). I tend to believe what he is said.

What I do not know for certain if he is the person I think he could be, and because I don't know that I don't know for certain what school he teaches at, and so I don't know if it's one of the 11 APS schools - though if my suspicions are correct, then yes it is.

No the group to which I am referring is a group of the 11.

That's the APS - the Associated Public Schools.

And does Scotch College admit in this book to the use of CP in 2001?

No, because Scotch College abolished corporal punishment in the school around 1988, and in the Boarding House around 1990 - and that fact is in the book.

Okay...now it's your serve--- maintain the need to protect the "privacy" of these schools again, deny knowledge of CP being used at Indpeendent Schools and act surprised that anyone would consider this all a very odd way for prestigious educational facilities to act.

I deny knowledge only because I don't have any knowledge of this. They might still be caning, I suspect at least two of these schools are - but I don't know.

Incidentally I also couldn't tell you which of these schools still teach Latin, which still issue colours, or which still require students to wear ties in summer. I don't have an intimate knowledge of their modern policies - on all three of those points, I am sure there have been changes since my schooldays - but I'm not sure at which schools.

KK makes some very sound points about the difficulty of assessing the past. In particular, there is the paradox that when we read old newspaper articles, we are by definition often reading about what was exceptional, not what was normal.

A source he doesn't mention is autobiographies. While it's perfectly possible for these to contain errors, if you get a lot of them saying the same thing -- rather as with Friends Reunited -- that thing is probably true. For example, people might be disinclined to believe the goings-on at Eton and the other elite private schools up to the 1970s, if there had not been such a huge number of memoirs by famous British men over the decades setting it all out in detail.

When present-day journalists write about the past, there is another problem, which is that most of them are too young to have any understanding based on personal experience. A lot of the hacks nowadays pontificating in the press seem to be hardly out of nappies, so you sometimes get quite grotesquely mistaken things being written about even the relatively recent past. In the past, such stuff would not have got past gnarled old subeditors, but now they too mostly seem to be aged about 22. (Am I beginning to sound like a Grumpy Old Man?)

The caption at the head of this thread is revealing. Was the featured cane really used on the hands? It look very big!

Dean wrote:

Honestly, no, I don't think it's a rather important bit of information for anyone thinking of sending their child to school there.
-----------------------------------
I think it is a vital piece of information and one that would be a determining factor in my decision in a school to which I would send my children.
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Dean wrote:

It certainly wasn't anything my parents considered in deciding where I went to school, nor is it anything I have ever heard of anyone considering.
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Now you have.
_____________________________________

Dean wrote:

Every year a number of guides to schools are published here that tell parents about particular schools to help them work out what school they should send their children to - 'The Good Schools Guide', 'The Right School For Your Child', 'Choosing A School For Your Child' and similar. The first of these books started coming out here in the early 1970s, and over the years I've read through quite a few of them. In all that time, I have never seen such a guide address the issue of corporal punishment in schools or name schools that use it - even at times when the use of corporal punishment in a school was public knowledge. This isn't a major issue for most parents.
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One would hope that this issue of your child being beaten with a stick or belt would not have to be a consideration when choosing a school…but apparently in some places it is. You don’t speak for most parents. You certainly don’t speak for me. And believe my you certainly don’t speak for parents in the neck of the woods where I reside. The use of corporal punishment would be a huge, important issue here.
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I wrote:

Don't distort. The discussion has been about CP. I am not saying they are secretive about other things. In fact I have said that they are very eager to let the world know of their accomplishments. It is on the issue of CP that they are secretive. They are protecting no one's privacy, they are trying to take attention away from the fact that CP is used. They do it through omission and what appears to be a concerted effort on the part of just about everyone involved to avoid discussion, deny knowledge and pretend it doesn't exist.

Dean wrote:

They make public the information that the public has a reason to know about. The general public doesn't have any need whatsoever to know what forms of discipline are used in a school. It's none of their business.
---------------------------------------------
I strongly disagree. One of the major purposes of the websites is to serve as advertisement for the school and to attract business. They lie through omission on these sites when they include downloadable applications and long discussions about the history, procedures and programs at the school and never once mention that they have a policy that allows corporal punishment---not even once, not even in passing. At at least one site, however, it is made perfectly clear that the school reserves the right to discipline students at their discretion as they see fit---without indicating what that means.
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Dean wrote:
When I was at secondary school - at the start of the era in which corporal punishment had been banned in most schools here, nearly twenty years ago now, I would have been mortified if the kids I went to youth group with knew I was still at risk of getting the strap at school. It would have embarassed me for them to know that. It wouldn't have been any of their business.
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Your personal embarrassment at being at risk of getting the strap is immaterial to this discussion and this issue. If you were embarrassed at having to wear short pants as part of your uniform to school, should the school likewise never talk about the fact that it is school policy to have boys wear uniforms with short pants? You, through your parent, made a decision to send you to the school you attended. If corporal punishment was used, there would be no reason other than hypocrisy for the school to hide that fact.
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I wrote:

The statement is irrelevant. The fact that you know about suspensions in state schools and that it is reported and discussed in the press is what is relevant. You seem eager to discuss the failings of the state schools disciplinary failures but very hesitant to even acknowledge the type of discipline used presently at independent schools.

Dean wrote:

It's not irrelevant. If you expect independent schools to openly disclose how discipline is imposed in their schools, you should expect it of state schools as well.
----------------------------------------------------------------
Your statement was irrelevant because you were comparing two totally different things. Discussing the failings of suspension is not the same as denying the existence of the use of CP. If the state schools were suspending students and refusing to discuss the fact that they used suspension or talk about the number of suspension or admit to it then your remark would have had relevancy. Your independent schools have a secrecy policy when it comes to CP at all. They don’t admit they do use it (and we know they do) and they certainly aren’t talking about it.
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Dean wrote:

Yes, and the fact that some independent schools use corporal punishment is also public and in the press.
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Really----please point me to these articles where independent schools discuss their use of corporal punishment. I would love to read them.
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Dean wrote:

Articles stating that corporal punishment is used in some private schools have appeared in The Age on the 13th February 2005, on the 16th March 2005, the 16th September 2005, and in the Herald Sun on the 16th September 2005.
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And have the independent schools in question verified it or remained silent about it?
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Dean wrote:

The fact that some independent schools use corporal punishment is public and in the press. Details of which schools these are (with one exception are not).

Just as the fact that some state schools use suspension is public and in the press. But again, details of which schools these are, are not.
--------------------------------------------
Are you now telling me now that the government schools that suspend are not known? And I could not get statistics from you department of education on the number of suspension that occur in a year at various schools?
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Dean wrote:

No, I'm not holding them to a lesser standard. The day state schools are required to publically discuss their disciplinary methods, I'll accept that independent schools should do the same.
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Are you now telling me that government school are not obligated to answer questions about their disciplinary policies to the general public?
________________________________________________

I wrote:

You and I both are aware that CP is used at a number of those 11 Independent schools. I thought better or you to out and out deny knowing that it occurs. Please don't tell me that you don't know that CP is used at your school and others of the 11. You can deny it all you want in public but you and I know better.

Dean wrote:

I am not out and out denying that it occurs. I am saying that there is only one particular school that I know of that uses corporal punishment. That is, only one school I could name - and have named. I am virtually certain there are other, and they may well include some of the 11 APS schools - but I don't know for certain if that is true of any of them.

I wrote:

Of course they do. And of course you are on that group. Are you saying that the moderator of that group is a liar and has fabricated everything he has put there for the last 5 years? And if the statistic and number he has provided are accurate then clearly you do know that CP goes on in Independent Schools in Victoria and to a significant extent at least in that particular school.

Dean wrote:

I don't believe he's a liar, but I also don't know who he is (I have my suspicions). I tend to believe what he is said.
----------------------------------------------

We both know who he is Dean. He has left more than enough evidence about his school and his identity on his group. He has told us much about his school. The only think he hasn't revealed is the real reason he feels the need to hid behind the cover of secrecy.
________________________________________________


Dean wrote:

What I do not know for certain if he is the person I think he could be, and because I don't know that I don't know for certain what school he teaches at, and so I don't know if it's one of the 11 APS schools - though if my suspicions are correct, then yes it is.
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Dean, why do I suspect that the only way you would believe that your suspicions were correct would be if the Deputy Head invited you to his school and had you watch him cane two or three students. I truly believe that that is the only level of proof that would satisfy you and even then you’d likely not feel you were able to say that it was a policy at the school only the policy of that one individual. <G>
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Dean wrote:
No, because Scotch College abolished corporal punishment in the school around 1988, and in the Boarding House around 1990 - and that fact is in the book.
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So if Scotch College can make that statement, why can’t the other 10. I don’t know about most of the 11 but I can say with a high level of certainty that CP does occur today in at least 2 of them and with a lesser degree of certainty in at least 1 additional one.
_______________________________________________________________

Dean wrote:

I deny knowledge only because I don't have any knowledge of this. They might still be caning, I suspect at least two of these schools are - but I don't know.
--------------------------------------------------
Like I said you’d need photographs, sworn testimony and fingerprints to reach the level of certainty you seem to require and even then you’d not be totally sure.

I deny knowledge that the sun is a fierly ball of hot gases. I have heard rumors that it is. I have my suspicions but I just can't really say for certain, not having been there. <G>

…and the avoidance of doubt, the deputy headmaster referred to above is our old friend Dominum who holds forth at his Yahoo group:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/schoolcp/

Dominum is a very plausible character if one takes his postings individually but the totality of his postings makes his genuineness more than a little suspect.

I find it almost impossible to believe that a serving headmaster (or deputy) could out himself on the Internet as a boys-bottom-obsessed pervert while continuing to hold his job.

There could be no anonymity for such a man as his writing style would immediately be recognised by those who know him in real life.

Also, didn't he once tell us that a neighbouring school had sent him a group of girls to cane? Had that story been set in Britain, it would have been hilariously improbable but maybe our Australian members can tell us how likely it is to have been true in Australia?

Lotta, Isn't that the guy who claimed to be a science teacher and used a rubber hose rather than a cane?

I think it is a vital piece of information and one that would be a determining factor in my decision in a school to which I would send my children.

Well, then, your attitude towards education seems to be different to most of those who consider these schools as options for their children. They are typically far more concerned with results than methods.

One would hope that this issue of your child being beaten with a stick or belt would not have to be a consideration when choosing a school…but apparently in some places it is. You don’t speak for most parents. You certainly don’t speak for me. And believe my you certainly don’t speak for parents in the neck of the woods where I reside. The use of corporal punishment would be a huge, important issue here.

It might have been here too, back in the days when it was commonplace in many schools, including in many bad schools. I think the attitude has changed once it started to become the province of only 'good' schools (not all 'good' schools).

Your statement was irrelevant because you were comparing two totally different things. Discussing the failings of suspension is not the same as denying the existence of the use of CP. If the state schools were suspending students and refusing to discuss the fact that they used suspension or talk about the number of suspension or admit to it then your remark would have had relevancy. Your independent schools have a secrecy policy when it comes to CP at all. They don’t admit they do use it (and we know they do) and they certainly aren’t talking about it.

Which is exactly what happens with state schools and suspensions. State schools, as individual, do not generally discuss their use of suspension, or talk about numbers suspended.

You seem to think that independent schools are doing something different from state schools. They are not. Details of methods of discipline are rarely made public by individual schools.

And have the independent schools in question verified it or remained silent about it?

Individual schools were not named - just as individual state schools were not named in the articles about suspensions.

Are you now telling me now that the government schools that suspend are not known? And I could not get statistics from you department of education on the number of suspension that occur in a year at various schools?

Yes, that is what I am telling you. State schools do not go generally state whether they use suspension or not - and I do not believe the Department of Education and Training issues figures on this - given the rules on suspension, I doubt DEET has accurate figures - I believe that suspensions only have to be reported to DEET if a student has already been suspended for days totalling two weeks - up until the two week limit is reached, the information remains in the school. At least those were the regulations last time I saw them - suspension doesn't even seem to be mentioned in the current regulations (except for a reference to the Minister's power to prevent suspended students using school buses, indicating it's still in use).

Are you now telling me that government school are not obligated to answer questions about their disciplinary policies to the general public?

Yes - definitely. It's a matter of privacy.

People with a need to know have a right to have these questions answered. Parents, prospective parents, for example. But not the public at large.

Of course they do. And of course you are on that group. Are you saying that the moderator of that group is a liar and has fabricated everything he has put there for the last 5 years? And if the statistic and number he has provided are accurate then clearly you do know that CP goes on in Independent Schools in Victoria and to a significant extent at least in that particular school.

No, I am not saying he is a liar. But I am not sure who he is - I have my suspicions but I do not know - and in fact, I have two suspects.

More specifically, even if he is telling the truth, I certainly do not know if he works at an APS school. I think he does - but there are elite schools that are outside the APS, and I can't rule those out.

We both know who he is Dean. He has left more than enough evidence about his school and his identity on his group. He has told us much about his school. The only think he hasn't revealed is the real reason he feels the need to hid behind the cover of secrecy.

Yes, and looking at the evidence on the group, I have two suspects. Not one. Two people who seem to fit the information, I've seen.

Dean, why do I suspect that the only way you would believe that your suspicions were correct would be if the Deputy Head invited you to his school and had you watch him cane two or three students. I truly believe that that is the only level of proof that would satisfy you and even then you’d likely not feel you were able to say that it was a policy at the school only the policy of that one individual. <G>

Not quite.

To be reasonably certain I knew who he was, first of all, I would have to have only one suspect - not two. But even then I wouldn't be certain.

So if Scotch College can make that statement, why can’t the other 10. I don’t know about most of the 11 but I can say with a high level of certainty that CP does occur today in at least 2 of them and with a lesser degree of certainty in at least 1 additional one.

This statement was made in Scotch's school history, published in 2001.

While all the APS schools have school histories, most of them are nowhere near as recent as Scotch's. Most date from periods when there was no real need for an APS school to say whether it used corporal punishment or not because everybody knew they did at that time.

Like I said you’d need photographs, sworn testimony and fingerprints to reach the level of certainty you seem to require and even then you’d not be totally sure.

No, what I'd need is for someone associated with such a school who would be in a position to know to tell me it was in use. A current pupil. A current Master. A parent.

Also, didn't he once tell us that a neighbouring school had sent him a group of girls to cane? Had that story been set in Britain, it would have been hilariously improbable but maybe our Australian members can tell us how likely it is to have been true in Australia?

That would be very unlikely.

But I don't believe that's the story he's told.

He's recently discussed this alleged incident again on his group, and what he said there was not that girls from another school had been sent to his school to be caned, but that they were sent to his school to study science and while they were in his school, they were treated in the same way as the boys, and that because of this he caned a number of them.

This is not incredible.

When the HSC (school leaving certificate) was introduced in Victoria in about 1970, science subjects suddenly became very important to school students wanting to do some university courses. During the 1950s and 1960s, the Australian government had made available special government funding to both state and private schools that wanted to build science labs and most secondary schools had taken advantage of this and so could reasonably easily introduce the new science classes to their curriculum.

But one exception were the elite girls schools and some convent schools. Old fashioned schools with old fashioned attitudes. While some of these had built science labs, some had deliberately chosen not to because they didn't believe girls needed to learn high level science. Others didn't build them because they didn't have room for them - some of these schools were still cramped into Victorian-era mansion houses.

But when the HSC came in, some girls from these schools started demanding to do high level science (Physics, Chemistry, and Biology) and to allow this to happen, it became quite common for girls from such schools to be sent to a nearby boys school for science lessons. Especially when, as was quite common, there were brother/sister school arrangements operating - where two schools had a close relationship which they used for dances, drama co-productions etc.

The degree of integration depended on the schools. In some cases, girls simply rushed into science classes, did them and then rushed back to their own school. But, certainly, some schools had higher levels of integration. I even know of one case where a girl wound up as a prefect at a boys school when this was all happening,

I've never encountered a formal reference to how the girls were dealt with in a disciplinary sense when this was happening but in the 1970s, corporal punishment was still very much the primary form of discipline in some boys schools and was certainly not unheard of in some girls schools.

I wrote:

I think it is a vital piece of information and one that would be a determining factor in my decision in a school to which I would send my children.

Dean wrote:

Well, then, your attitude towards education seems to be different to most of those who consider these schools as options for their children. They are typically far more concerned with results than methods.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`

And apparently so are your teachers. Where I come from we seem to be concerned with both methods and results. How a teacher teaches is important. Children learn best outside an atmosphere of fear. I do not want my children in an environment where the way teachers maintain control, order or the appearance of interest with a stick that they use to beat children’s backsides. And I assure you that this would not simply be MY attitude the but the attitude of the large majority of parents in the state and region in which I live.
___________________________________________________________________________

Dean wrote:

It might have been here too, back in the days when it was commonplace in many schools, including in many bad schools. I think the attitude has changed once it started to become the province of only 'good' schools (not all 'good' schools).

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Bad things happen in good schools. And even if the child being beaten is the only one out of a hundred during the course of a year, if that one child is your child then commonplace or not, it would matter.

I would also say that our perception of a small amount of CP in schools is very different. While we would certainly agree that what goes in in Victoria’s independent schools today is less than 4 decades ago, I would still not call it rare in the schools that practice it or even unusual in one particular school.
_____________________________________________________________________

Dean wrote:

Which is exactly what happens with state schools and suspensions. State schools, as individual, do not generally discuss their use of suspension, or talk about numbers suspended.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
How can you say they don’t talk of their policy of suspension when clearly their discussion of it has called into question it efficacy?
__________________________________________________________

I wrote:

Are you now telling me now that the government schools that suspend are not known? And I could not get statistics from you department of education on the number of suspension that occur in a year at various schools?

Dean wrote:

Yes, that is what I am telling you. State schools do not go generally state whether they use suspension or not - and I do not believe the Department of Education and Training issues figures on this - given the rules on suspension, I doubt DEET has accurate figures - I believe that suspensions only have to be reported to DEET if a student has already been suspended for days totalling two weeks - up until the two week limit is reached, the information remains in the school. At least those were the regulations last time I saw them - suspension doesn't even seem to be mentioned in the current regulations (except for a reference to the Minister's power to prevent suspended students using school buses, indicating it's still in use).

~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If this is in fact the reality, then I cannot tell you how alien the Victorian educational system is to me. I have been in education for over 35 years and nothing I have ever come across be it in the public or private sector as it has to do with education has ever approached the secrecy with which education is approached in Victoria relative to student management and school policy.
____________________________________
I wrote:

Are you now telling me that government school are not obligated to answer questions about their disciplinary policies to the general public?

Dean wrote:

Yes - definitely. It's a matter of privacy.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

No, Dean it is a matter of secrecy! It is privacy when educational institutions will not disclose how their policies have had an impact on specific individual students. It is secrecy when educational institutions refuse to even disclose their policies. Frankly I cannot understand how your society would tolerate such secrecy. It would not be tolerated here, certainly. I can just imagine the outcry if any citizen here requested information on the policies of any educational institution and was told—“We’re not telling!”
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Dean wrote
People with a need to know have a right to have these questions answered. Parents, prospective parents, for example. But not the public at large.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Again we disagree. Society and the general public has a reasonable and justifiable need to be informed about the government licensed institutions that educates their youngest citizens. The state and the citizenry in general have a vested interest in the product that these institutions are producing and the manner in which they do so. The general public will ultimately be affected by the skills and morality that is inculcated in these students while in the care of the educational institution and therefore does have a right to know what is going on in them.
______________________________________________

I wrote:

Of course they do. And of course you are on that group. Are you saying that the moderator of that group is a liar and has fabricated everything he has put there for the last 5 years? And if the statistic and number he has provided are accurate then clearly you do know that CP goes on in Independent Schools in Victoria and to a significant extent at least in that particular school.

Dean wrote:

No, I am not saying he is a liar. But I am not sure who he is - I have my suspicions but I do not know - and in fact, I have two suspects.

More specifically, even if he is telling the truth, I certainly do not know if he works at an APS school. I think he does - but there are elite schools that are outside the APS, and I can't rule those out.

I wrote:

We both know who he is Dean. He has left more than enough evidence about his school and his identity on his group. He has told us much about his school. The only think he hasn't revealed is the real reason he feels the need to hid behind the cover of secrecy.

Dean wrote:

Yes, and looking at the evidence on the group, I have two suspects. Not one. Two people who seem to fit the information, I've seen.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Have you viewed the chart I sent you email? Seems to me that based on both public and private information I have on this man, it is with a fairly high degree of confidence that we can both say we know whom he is. So if he is not telling lies on this group, we know a whole lot about the extensive use of CP at at least on Independent School in Victoria

___________________________________________________

Dean wrote:

To be reasonably certain I knew who he was, first of all, I would have to have only one suspect - not two. But even then I wouldn't be certain.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`

You will never be “reasonably certain” because to be so you will have to admit to that which you do not want to admit or remain totally silent as apparently is the culture when dealing with schools in your neck of the woods.
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Dean wrote:

No, what I'd need is for someone associated with such a school who would be in a position to know to tell me it was in use. A current pupil. A current Master. A parent.
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And we both know that you do know someone who has information on all of those fronts. What is the point of this discourse when clearly you are not even willing to admit to what I know to be a fact about you nevermind what goes on it the secret halls of Independent Victorian Schools.

KK wrote:
"According to a former Prime Minister the steady flow of migrants into Australia had the advantage of raising the average IQ of both Australia and the rest of the world. Untrue, of course."
Actually this is a misquote of former NZ Prime Minister Robert Muldoon (1975-1984) who said that NZers who move to Australia help to raise the IQ of both countries. About 30,000 do so every year.

Dominum purported to be a headteacher, not a science teacher.

He was very plausible but I think our common sense tells us that men who spend their lives telling others about all the sex they're getting are very rarely getting any at all .

I suspect it's the same with CP.

Did you realise that Muldoon got Peter Cook's only solo UK hit, The Ballad of Spotty Muldoon banned in New Zealand in 1965?

It didn't of course refer to him, but no doubt pricked his own sense of self-importance. Which was fairly considerable, I believe!

More importantly, the picture that started this thread came from the Weekend Australian,so, Mike, Dean & co-what the heck are you lot doing in the week,then?

And whilst we're totally off the thread, Crow-Eaters for South Australians & Banana-Landers for Queenslanders I know-can someone enlighten this poor old Pom as to the correct derogatory terms for Western Australians, Tasmanians, Victorians, and New South Welsh?

And, briefly on the subject-didn't Fisher in Gnome & Away give some lad the cane across his hand IN CLASS just after he became Summer Bay High's head? I wonder, too, if any Vic headmistress took up the black glove treatment hinted at by the lovely Maggie Kirkpatrick as THE FREAK, Joan Ferguson, in Prisoner Cell Block H?

Lotta wrote:

Dominum is a very plausible character if one takes his postings individually but the totality of his postings makes his genuineness more than a little suspect.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Yet he does have a good deal of correct information about a number of issues. How much he makes up in addition to what he knows or how much he foolishly discloses about what his school does not want others to know out of a keen sense of self-aggrandizement remains the mystery.
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Lotta wrote:

I find it almost impossible to believe that a serving headmaster (or deputy) could out himself on the Internet as a boys-bottom-obsessed pervert while continuing to hold his job.
---------------------------------------------------------------

He claims no so interest in boys' bottoms only in the efficacy of CP. He has, however, admitted to caning girls in the past and having a distinct biological reaction to that. Although he claims some guilt about this in one section of his group, in another he states that there is nothing wrong with sexually aroused adults caning children for punishment.

Much of what he claims on his site may in fact be true, based on other very reliable information.
________________________________________________________________________________

Lotta wrote:

There could be no anonymity for such a man as his writing style would immediately be recognised by those who know him in real life.
-----------------------------------------------------

Well he refuses to acknowledge his identity under any circumstance and if asked point blank if he is ______________________ a very likely possibility, he simply states that for the "privacy" concerns of his students he cannot say, even as he, in graphic detail, outlines their misbehavior and their caning.
___________________________________________________________

Lotta wrote:

Also, didn't he once tell us that a neighbouring school had sent him a group of girls to cane? Had that story been set in Britain, it would have been hilariously improbable but maybe our Australian members can tell us how likely it is to have been true in Australia?
--------------------------------

All I know is that if he is the person whom I believe him to be based on some information I have acquired, his school has an affiliation with a neighboring girls' school.


True or false, I find the person behind the name detestable. He gleefully and self-righteously promotes real cruelty to children while couching it in the disguise of being kind. He find nothing amoral about a teacher caning a student and having sexual pleasure in it as long as the caning is deserved for a misbehavior and carried out according to guidelines.

The only people who are going to really know if Dominum is who he says he is and what his actual identity is are those who have been in the independent school system, are in the independent school system, have children enrolled in the independent school system or have friends who work in the independent school system. It if very much a closed, good Old Boy system.

My recent discussion with Dean certainly shows how futile this endeaver can be. No one knows anything about anything in the present and if they do they can't say because of "privacy" issues. Must be the party line.

Hello Steve, to answer your questions: Western Australians are Sand Groppers. New South Welshmen are Gum Suckers and Victorians are called Mexicans, because we are south of the border. Apart from being called Banana Benders, Queenslander's have also been called Red Necks. I heard these names being used when I was in the armed forces.

I can't remember what the Tasmanians were called, other than Taswegians. Some of my service mates referred to them as Those with Two Heads.
Unfortunately, Tasmanians are the brunt of Aussie jokes.
When the film, "My left foot" was released, a joke circulated around that a follow up movie was to be filmed in Tasmania and it was to be titled, "My Left Head". Although a lot of people thought it was funny at the time, the Tasmanians didn't.


I don't remember what Northern Territorians were called or even if they did have a nickname.

It may seem to you that we have a lot of spare time and the reason for this is because we have a 38 hour week in industry here. We have the option of either working 38 hours per week, or working 40 hours per week, the extra 2 being acumulated each week to allow an RDO (Rotstered day off once a month. Giving a few long weekends each year).

Some places where I have worked have a 36 hour week. We have good wages, good conditions and a good quality lifestyle. However, our Prime Minister would like to change it if he could.

We don't expect anything less from an out of touch Government who would like nothing better for us than to work for third world wages, not have unions to represent the workforce, (which would give them power to do what they like) sell off everything Australian and make us the fifty first state of America into the bargain.

It has been quoted by many Aussies that if you were to kick George Bush in the rear end, you would break John Howards ankles, because he's that far up.

And apparently so are your teachers. Where I come from we seem to be concerned with both methods and results. How a teacher teaches is important. Children learn best outside an atmosphere of fear. I do not want my children in an environment where the way teachers maintain control, order or the appearance of interest with a stick that they use to beat children’s backsides. And I assure you that this would not simply be MY attitude the but the attitude of the large majority of parents in the state and region in which I live.

Oh, I agree that how a teacher teaches is important. I even agree that children learn better outside an atmosphere of fear. But you know, when I was at school, I didn't spend my days in an atmosphere of fear. Normally, the only times I was afraid of being strapped was when I'd done something wrong - so most of the time I avoided the atmosphere of fear was by behaving myself. It was almost entirely my choice whether I went through school afraid or not.

Friends of mine - people of the same age as myself - who went to state schools or to private schools which had abandoned corporal punishment have described to me a great deal more fear than I ever experienced. One of my close friends from my time at Kostka and Xavier is a man who came to Kostka in Form 2/Year 8 from another private school which didn't use the strap. What he describes when he talks about that school is almost daily beatings at the hands of other students. Of being unable to walk into the toilets for fear of being attacked by other students. Of having to hide every afternoon while waiting half an hour for the bus home to arrive, because he knew if he was in plain site, he would be teased if he was lucky and bashed if it was a normal day.

That's an atmosphere of fear that he could do nothing about. Once he got to Kostka, the possibility a teacher would hit him went up immensely - but the possibility another student would do so went down dramatically. And at Kostka, he had far more power to ensure that he didn't get hit - because now there had to be a reason for it.

How can you say they don’t talk of their policy of suspension when clearly their discussion of it has called into question it efficacy?

Because they don't. The concerns about suspension haven't come from statements made by state schools - but by research done by people outside the school system working off research they've managed to gather from various places.

Again we disagree. Society and the general public has a reasonable and justifiable need to be informed about the government licensed institutions that educates their youngest citizens. The state and the citizenry in general have a vested interest in the product that these institutions are producing and the manner in which they do so. The general public will ultimately be affected by the skills and morality that is inculcated in these students while in the care of the educational institution and therefore does have a right to know what is going on in them.

Actually we don't disagree.

I've no problem with anything you have said here.

What I have a problem with is the suggestion that independent schools should be held to a higher standard than state schools are. I agree that state schools should be required to release figures and similar information on their methods of discipline.

And as soon as they are required to do that, I'd support independent schools having to do the same.

At the moment, state schools are not required to do so. So I don't think it's surprising at all that independent schools don't do so.

Have you viewed the chart I sent you email? Seems to me that based on both public and private information I have on this man, it is with a fairly high degree of confidence that we can both say we know whom he is. So if he is not telling lies on this group, we know a whole lot about the extensive use of CP at at least on Independent School in Victoria

Yes, I have viewed your e-mail. And you have identified one of my two main 'suspects' as to who he is. But only one of them. There's another person I consider to be just as good a candidate. And I can't rule out the possibility there aren't others.

And we both know that you do know someone who has information on all of those fronts. What is the point of this discourse when clearly you are not even willing to admit to what I know to be a fact about you nevermind what goes on it the secret halls of Independent Victorian Schools.

I don't know a single current pupil of an independent school - not to talk to in detail anyway. I know three teachers who are currently at significant independent schools. I know five sets of parents with sons at such schools (and one of the teachers I know also has a son at such a school). While it is possible (indeed likely) that these people could answer a question relating to the current use of corporal punishment at the schools they are associated with, I have not asked any of them to answer such a question, and the information has not come up in conversation.

I do not have the information you seem to think I must have.

DEAN


Thanks very much-my condolences about Howard:in my few public viewings of the man on TV over here, I suspected a slightly more sophisticated bigot than Ray in Home & Away-in other words, don't kick the abbos or immigrants out of sight, encourage others to do it for you!


All that worried me about the magazine title was the possibility of you good people either pretending to be something else in the week, or coming out of working identity crises at the weekends.


As your lot just got a gold at the Winter Olympics, I wonder if the medals table shows any correlation between countries where beatings at school have long ceased and achievement? OK, there's not much joy for Singapore or Swaziland in the table, but the paddling Americans made up for it!


I shall saviour the nicknames tonight,too