This article appeared in The Weekend Australian last weekend - I obtained the link from another school corporal punishment group, and thought some people might like to see it here.

Dean; It looks like that picture was taken in the early '70s. The slacks that teacher is wearing are the same style I wore in the early '70s.

Yes, I'm pretty sure the picture is from the '70s - you don't see hair like that on kids either here today. But the article is definitely from last week - I saw it in the paper.

Fear and Loathing pretty well describes the look on the faces of every single one of those students.

That's an extremely staged-looking photo. I don't think that stick is a proper cane at all, it's too thick and stiff.

And what a horrid bottom the teacher has.

It is the type of cane typically used in New South Wales state schools in the 1970s.

Dean, I found your posting quite interesting. What I find amusing about these types of articles is the reference made to the cane being used in Victorian Schools.

Having been educated in Melbourne, I am always amazed by reports of the cane being used in this state. In my years at school I never once saw a cane ever being used, nor did any of my friends, and I have a lot of friends who attended different schools, both public and private.

I don't deny the cane may have been used in schools in Victoria, it just appears from my findings the strap was the weapon of choice.

I have friends who told me either a strap, or in one rare case, a slipper (This was used on boarders at Ivanhoe Grammer; circa 1960's) was the popular instrument of choice at that particular school. The slipper seems another unusual instrument to me. The Ivanhoe Grammer story was the first time I had heard of a slipper being used in a Victorian, or for that matter any other school.

Most of my friends are 40's - 50's in age so perhaps the time frame may come into play here. Most secondary schools I was familiar with and I mention the following schools; Keon Park Technical School (Sold about 15 years ago for housing development.) and Preston Technical College, (which is now known as Northern Metropolitan TAFE.) Both used the strap and not the cane as did primary schools in the area.

Unfortunately my memory regarding Northcote High School is a little vague. I have already mentioned Ivanoe Grammer above and I should mention all the schools I mentioned were boy's schools. Preston Tech did have a girls school attached to the grounds and I was told by the sister of a friend of mine that contrary to other peoples beliefs, the Headmistress used the strap, something of which I was oblivious to during my years at the school due to the male and female students being isolated from each other.


I did however have a friend I served with in the armed forces, and in a particular conversation about our old school days, he noted that in his own state of Queensland the cane was used. Given on the hands and not the "R - SEND". His direct words, not mine.

I believe there is always a certain percentage misrepresented facts when it comes to what the media reports regardless of any topic.

Thanks for posting the article. I'm sure it has some nostelgic/historic value for some Aussie members here.

You make some very good points.

I'm an historian by training and profession, specialising in institutional histories, including school history's. As a hobby, alongside my work, I specifically research the history of corporal punishment in Australian schools.

And, yes, I noticed the references to the cane in Victoria as well, in that article with some amusement.

Here's the situation in Victoria as my research has revealed it.

Initially the cane was the most common instrument of corporal punishment used in all Victorian schools. Victoria's first schools were 'National Schools' and 'Denominational Schools' inherited from the education system that had been set up in New South Wales and which Victoria kept operating when it was proclaimed a separate colony in 1851. These were solely primary schools catering for children up until age 12 (New South Wales did have one government run secondary school at the time of Victoria's separation - Fort Street in Sydney). The cane had been in use for boys in National Schools and for both boys and girls in denominational schools in New South Wales and initially these practices were replicated in Victoria. There were no secondary schools operating in Victoria but following the establishment of the University of Melbourne in 1854, the need for schools to provide secondary education to supply students for the university became apparent. The colonial government had no interest in running its own secondary schools so it offered seed money to the Church's to set up a number of 'Public Schools' on the British model. The schools established under this system were Scotch College, Melbourne Grammar, Geelong Grammar, Wesley College, and St Patrick's College (Geelong College was later retrospectively ruled to be such a school, and when Xavier College became the state's dominant Catholic school, St Patrick's transferred it's Public School charter to Xavier - creating the dominant grouping of Independent Schools in Victoria - the Six Great Schools).

In 1862, the National Schools and the Denominational Schools (all primary schools) were merged into a group referred to as the Common Schools. With this merger it became normal practice for corporal punishment to be administered to both boys and girls in the common schools, whereas before girls had been (at least officially) exempt in the National Schools.

The independent secondary schools were permitted to set their own policies on corporal punishment. Scotch, reflecting its Scottish heritage primarily used the tawse. Melbourne Grammar, Geelong Grammar, and Wesley College formed in imitation of the major English schools, such as Eton, Harrow, Winchester, etc used the cane. St Patrick's was in the care of the Jesuits and they used their standard strap.

In 1872, the Victorian government totally reformed its education system with the Education Act of 1872 (still in effect today - although likely to be replaced this year). This Act sought to make primary school education universal and free. While the Act itself didn't mention corporal punishment, the Department of Education set up under it, did turn its attention to the issue in the mid 1870s. These people were reformers - who wanted a 'modern' education system based on new ideas - and they seriously considered abolishing corporal punishment in all state schools (still all primary schools at this stage).

But the education system in effect at the time, involved smart boys being allowed to go on from the state school primary system to the independent schools for secondary education on government paid scholarships. The system relied upon the goodwill of the independent schools being willing to accept scholarship children from the state primary schools - and these schools made it quite clear that they regarded corporal punishment as necessary in the primary schools - they didn't want the poorer students coming into their independent schools to be ill-disciplined. An argument developed, but eventually was brokered by Morrison, the Headmaster of Scotch. He persuaded the Education Department that the tawse would suit their needs. It was the 'the most humane means ever used in school government', and so from the late 1870s onwards, Education department guidelines stated that only the tawse across the hand could be used in Victorian state schools for the purposes of corporal punishment. This rule was generally followed, but by no means perfectly until 1900.

Between 1872 and 1900, Catholic primary schools were also being set up by the Catholic Church itself in response to the 1872 Education Act banning religious instruction in state schools, but the Education Department nevertheless allowing Anglican prayers in schools. Because these Catholic schools were intended to be a copy of the state school system except on the matter of religion, they also adopted state school practices, with the strap (the term tawse was only in use officially for about ten years) on the hand being their primary method of corporal punishment.

In 1900, for the first time, the Education Department issued the Education Gazette - which laid down easily accessible regulations for all aspects of state schools. While the strap had been the only method officially supposed to be used in state schools, this had never been put into a binding regulation. In 1900, it was. From that point onwards, until abolition in state schools in 1983, the rules on corporal punishment in state schools stated explicitly that only the strap could be used, it could only be administered on the palm of the hand, and could only be administered to boys. These rules were not always followed perfectly but from 1900 onwards, teachers who broke them could be fined, or dismissed.

The Catholic schools set no binding regulation on their schools, but they followed the general practice of the state schools. Corporal punishment of girls was rare, but not actually banned. Catholic Schools (in the Archdiocese of Melbourne at least) abolished corporal punishment in 1985 - and they did it by their own decision - another point of inaccuracy in that article.

As the state system and the Catholic system established more and more secondary schools of their own, practices from the primary schools of their systems moved upwards into the secondary schools. Initially it was intended that state High Schools wouldn't use corporal punishment (and, in fact, Melbourne High School - the first state High School established in 1905 as the Melbourne Continuation School never officially used corporal punishment) but no regulation was ever passed to that effect, and by 1920, it was accepted that state High Schools used the strap.

The state and Catholic systems together account for most of the state's schools - and they used the strap.

But there were Independent schools that used the cane (and this actually included some Catholic schools - not all Catholic schools are part of the Catholic system).

Private schools that I know used the cane from documentary evidence are:

Scotch College (though the tawse was used initially, the cane became more and more used over time partly because once the strap was officially adopted by the state system, a perception developed that it was a punishment for lower class boys, an image Scotch certainly did not want for itself - the strap did survive in the hands of a few teachers).

Melbourne Grammar

Geelong Grammar

Geelong College

Wesley Grammar

Xavier College (the strap was the primary method of corporal punishment at Xavier, but from the early twentieth century onwards, in response to the same 'class issues' as described above, Xavier also made use of the cane).

Mentone Grammar

Brighton Grammar

Haileybury College

Carey Baptist Grammar

Caulfield Grammar

Trinity Grammar

St Michael's Grammar School

Basically the cane was in use in many of the 'elite' schools.

The slipper was rare here. The only case I have found in my research - and that's been quite considerable of a slipper being used in a Victorian school was an incident at Scotch.

Myself - I attended Xavier College from the mid 1980s to the early 1990s - Kostka Hall in Brighton, initially, then the senior school at Kew. And my experiences were with the strap.

I rely upon research as an important tool in my toolbox where my job is concerned and I appreciate what you say.

I write the following without Prejudice.

I have read many accounts regarding private and religous schools. Unfortunately, public schools seem to be over looked. This is a pity because a vast majority of the nations population was educated in the public system. There exists a wealth of information just waiting to be tapped into in this area. However I believe it would be in the form of actaul eyewitness accounts as compared to written documentation from school archives.

On the issue of age of public schools, If we care to look around there are quite a few schools both in the Urban and rural Australia that are over 100 years old.

Bundoora, or Keelbundoora as it was formally known is a good example. RMIT owns property with such a school building which for memory is listed by the National Trust. The school is on Plenty Rd near the ring road overpass.

Another school in the area is Norris Bank State School which has a story attached about school's children planting Pine trees on a plantation across from the school at the turn of the last century. This story clearly indicates the school being over 100 years old.

Further evidence is in the form of local families having ancestors who attended the school. This school has a very good reputation in the area and is still in operation today.


I believe if we are going to talk about schools in Australia, it would be reasonable for both private and public schools to be represented. I attended schools in both sectors and I feel there is a lot of material regarding public schools yet to be written.


Hopefully, someone with the necessary research skills and interest in the public system may take up the challenge. I just wish I had more time to donate the topic.

Again, you make some excellent points.

As a professional historian, it is my dream at some point to be able to write a proper and definitive history of school corporal punishment in Australia. But to do this properly would require hundreds of hours of work and specialised access, and it's the access that is the real problem. It's really very hard to do this type of work unless you are commissioned by a school. And, unfortunately few state schools are interested in having proper histories written, and even if they are interested, can rarely justify the expense for a detailed history. As for the system as a whole - the Department of Education and Training doesn't much like its history being delved into too deeply - it's much harder to close a school with a known history, and they feel such research hamstrings them.

There are exceptions - I've recently helped with the research of a history of Cheltenham Primary School - which is one of the state's oldest schools, dating back to 1855. They commissioned a history for their 150th Anniversary - but generally state schools don't have this type of work done. The only Victorian State Schools I know of with significant published school histories are Melbourne High (hardly the most typical state school) and Frankston High. Whereas most of the significant independent schools have at least one published history.

These differ in scope considerably - the best of them (none of which I had any involvement in) are those associated with Scotch, Geelong Grammar, and Trinity Grammar. These ones used school records and also immense numbers of interviews with people, gathering of anecdotes etc. But those schools have the advantage of large scale Old Boys networks, so they can easily find many of their ex-students. Again, this is hard to do with most state schools.

State schools do deserve a lot more attention from an historical perspective - but it is difficult to do this, unfortunately. It is an immense amount of work, and few historians are independently wealthy.

Private schools that I know used the cane from documentary evidence are:

Scotch College (though the tawse was used initially, the cane became more and more used over time partly because once the strap was officially adopted by the state system, a perception developed that it was a punishment for lower class boys, an image Scotch certainly did not want for itself - the strap did survive in the hands of a few teachers).

Melbourne Grammar

Geelong Grammar

Geelong College

Wesley Grammar

Xavier College (the strap was the primary method of corporal punishment at Xavier, but from the early twentieth century onwards, in response to the same 'class issues' as described above, Xavier also made use of the cane).

Mentone Grammar

Brighton Grammar

Haileybury College

Carey Baptist Grammar

Caulfield Grammar

Trinity Grammar

St Michael's Grammar School
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How many of these school still routinely cane students today? I have been lead to understand that the cane is still used regularly and quite extensively at Brighton Grammar---any truth to that?

I word fantasy springs to mind here. I think someone may be having you on. Students are well versed on their rights.

I'm afraid I don't know if any of those schools use the cane. There are still a handful of Victorian schools around that do use it (at least for the moment - as the article above indicates, legislation is currently in Parliament to outlaw it in Victoria, but independent schools generally don't publicise what methods of discipline they use. I can say that I've never heard of Brighton Grammar abolishing the cane - and I do know that some of the schools on that list have abolished - this does sometimes get publicised.

My last post should have read: The word fantasy springs to mind.
I initially started the reply with another response and and did not fully delete my original reply. My apologies for the mistake.

No Mike, it is still in use at a few schools. The Dando Sports Academy publicly acknowledges the use of the cane, and the AISV has confirmed its use in some of its member schools in articles in the Age and Herald Sun last year. It's use is a fact.

Students may know their rights - we certainly did when I was at school - but that doesn't always mean a lot. Most of us at Xavier supported the use of corporal punishment to be honest - better that than detention, or even worse, better that than penals.

Dean, I once worked at Xavier College back in the eighties. I wasn't on the academic staff but I did get a first hand knowledge of what I would refer to as "up stairs, downstairs" or class distinction.

The student dining area and staff dining area was situated on the first floor in those days. I worked for a contract company, that's why I was there. Friday night the students were given fish. The staff were given a menu with 3 choices. Fillet steak being one of them. Now if the students are paying boarding fees etc, why were they given fish and the staff given an a la carte menu? I can tell you there is a lot of difference in price, both wholesale and retail between fish and beef.

And it doesn't surprise me in the least that Xavier would indulge in CP practices. All Male staff, or at least that's what I noted when there and we all know about what priests have been up to lately in this country. I'm sure the higher beings would not condone their behavour and they will have a case to answer to later on. What gets me angry is that priests are supposed to be docile and caring of their fellow human beings but here they are caning and strapping with gay abandon.

This is why I turned my back on the church. Hypocracy at its best. Although I was never taught by brothers or priests, I did have quite a lot of experience with nuns.

In your post you make reference to the AISV and Dano Sports acadamy. I just find this a little difficult to digest as I can't see why the AISV would involve itself in this type of acknowlegement and or practice.

However, please feel free to enlighten me.

I'm not at all surprised that the boarders received an inferior menu to the staff (I was a day boy - I only ever ate across the bridge in the boarders dining room on a few special occasions). Yes, there were serious class distinctions in the school and staff were considered superior to boys, and I would assume they still are. The school is a very heirarchical environment - and honestly, I never had a real problem with that. It was part of the ethos of the school that over time you earned respect, you earned privileges, and special food has always been regarded as a form of privilege at Xavier - if you get a chance to read the history of Xavier - Xavier Portraits, originally published as Xavier: A Centenary Portrait - there's quite a bit of discussion about the role of food as a agent of privilege in the school in the early days.

But the reason the boys would have received fish on Friday is almost certainly religious. Xavier is a Catholic school, and significant numbers of the boarders come from very Catholic families. Canon Law still requires that Catholics eat fish on Fridays (Canon 1251) unless an alternative act of penance is served. (Many Catholics believe the rule on not eating meat on Fridays no longer exists - this is only true if an alternative penance is observed). Of course, most Catholics don't take the rule seriously - but the state's most prominent Catholic school really couldn't easily just ignore such a rule.

In terms of the staff, as adults, I would presume they were considered to be trusted to make an alternative penance if they wanted to eat steak. Whether that is true or not, I have no idea - but I don't believe a prominent Catholic school could have got away with serving meat to boarders on a Friday, without risking parental complaints.

Understand that while a lot of the boys attending Xavier (and especially the boarders) come from privileged backgrounds, the school doesn't want the boys to feel they are unusually privileged. It's considered important that these boys don't get 'spoiled'. Yes, their parents are paying high fees for them to attend the school - and that entitles them to a high class education, and if they are boarders to nourishing food. It does not entitle them to luxury.

Just for the record though - by my time at Xavier, corporal punishment was rarely administered by either the Priests or the Brothers. In fact, at the senior school where you worked, it was quite rarely administered anyway. It was administered far more often at the two prep schools - Burke Hall and Kostka Hall - and was normally administered by lay staff. We did have one Brother at Kostka who was rather strap happy.

As for the AISV - maybe you're thinking of a different organisation than I am, because the reason the AISV is involved doesn't strike me as at all strange. The AISV I am referring to is the Association of Independent Schools of Victoria - the state's largest representative body for private schools, with about 200 member schools. The reason the AISV has commented on this issue, is because they have taken the lead in representing the interests of private schools in relation to Victoria's new Education and Training Act. Newspaper articles published on the new Act last year, mentioned the banning of corporal punishment as one feature of the new Act, and so the AISV commented on that.

One example is from the Herald Sun of September 16 2005, p. 11 ('State hails class act: School leaving age up, strap banned').

Quote:

"But Association of Independent Schools chief executive, Michelle Green, said individual schools and communities should be allowed to determing their discipline policy and whether that includes corporal punishment.

"It is widely known corporal punishment is still used at some private schools."

The article can be seen here - http://www.corpun.com/aus00509.htm

Other relevant webpages.

http://www.corpun.com/aus00409.htm

http://www.corpun.com/aus00502.htm#15193

An article about the Dando Sports Academy - http://www.corpun.com/aus00503.htm

I've just been thinking - did you perhaps think I was talking about the AIS - Australian Institute of Sport? Yes, it would be very odd if they'd made any comments about this, and considering I referred to the Dando Sports Academy at the same time, I could easily understand how somebody might jump to that conclusion - the AIS is a much better known organisation than the AISV. Just for the record, the Dando Sports Academy is really just a somewhat unusual private school - it makes a great deal of use of sport within it's curriculum, hence its name, but in essence it's just an alternative private school.

I'm afraid I don't know if any of those schools use the cane. There are still a handful of Victorian schools around that do use it (at least for the moment - as the article above indicates, legislation is currently in Parliament to outlaw it in Victoria, but independent schools generally don't publicise what methods of discipline they use. I can say that I've never heard of Brighton Grammar abolishing the cane - and I do know that some of the schools on that list have abolished - this does sometimes get publicised.
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I think the historian knows far more than he is willing to disclose. The loyalty of Old Boys to the system seems almost cultish. So much so that things that do exist are believed by others not to exist simply because those involved keep their mouths so tightly closed. One would think that given the esteem and status at which many members of these elite schools hold themselves, they would be more forthright, courageous and willing to stand up for what they say they believe in, rather than maintain the status quo and essentially deceive by their silence.

I'm sorry, but I don't know, and I object to the implication that I do. These schools generally do keep their use of corporal punishment quiet, and I'm not a member of any inner sanctum or anything like that. I know the histories of the schools very well, but I'm not that well informed about current practices.

I admit that even if I did know, I might not feel comfortable putting that information on this forum - but if that was the case, I would say that was the case.

Do I feel some loyalty to the school I attended, and the network of which it is a part? Yes, I do. It gave me an education and experiences of a type that it is unlikely I could have got elsewhere, and I am grateful for that. But that's not influencing my answer to your question, because quite simply, I don't know the answer.

I hear rumours that certain schools still use the cane - but I'm not prepared mere rumours. There's a few schools I know that have abolished - but I don't know the status at other schools (and frankly, abolition doesn't always seem to last anyway).

I'm sorry, but I don't know, and I object to the implication that I do.
__________________________________________________________________________

I am sorry if I gave offense but I am sure you will admit that the secrecy and loyalty surrounding those who have a connection to these independent schools protect them with dedication that would make for excellent fodder for a new Dan Brown novel.

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These schools generally do keep their use of corporal punishment quiet, and I'm not a member of any inner sanctum or anything like that. I know the histories of the schools very well, but I'm not that well informed about current practices.

I admit that even if I did know, I might not feel comfortable putting that information on this forum - but if that was the case, I would say that was the case.

Do I feel some loyalty to the school I attended, and the network of which it is a part? Yes, I do. It gave me an education and experiences of a type that it is unlikely I could have got elsewhere, and I am grateful for that. But that's not influencing my answer to your question, because quite simply, I don't know the answer.
__________________________________________________________________________________

So honestly tell me, do you know if they still use the cane today at the independent school that you attended? And to what extent? Is other forms of CP than the cane used with younger boys? As an Old Boy with a strong connection to your school, you surely must have a pretty good idea of what goes on there. Do you not?

To Dean and Halliwell, thanks for the informative comments. I think we have all but exhausted this topic and now is the time to put this thread to bed.

Dean, I don't think we will ever receive any facts regarding corporal punishment being used in independant schools. They seem to act like the Masonic Lodge who always maintain this;

"We are not a Secret Society. We are a Society with Secrets!".

Eventually these independant schools will have to fall into line with government policy, it is just a matter of when. The Victorian Government needs to take a stronger stance on this issue. No one should be above the law. If there is a law against the use of corporal punishment in Victoria and it is not followed to the letter, any school breaking the law should be charged for doing so. With the threat of heavy fines and/or imprisonment as a deterent I'm sure all independant schools would cease their practices very quickly.


Thank you for the links. I will most certainly have a look at them.

NB.
You are correct, I was misled by the reference to Dano Sports Acadamy and the initials of the AISV.

I am sorry if I gave offense but I am sure you will admit that the secrecy and loyalty surrounding those who have a connection to these independent schools protect them with dedication that would make for excellent fodder for a new Dan Brown novel.

Among some people, yes. Others take it far less seriously. I'm probably pretty much in the middle. I still get the Xavier News, I still get the letters asking for donations and I have attended a couple of Old Boys functions.

I wouldn't embarass my school if I could avoid it, but nor would I conceal factual information about it, if I knew that information without a very good reason.

So honestly tell me, do you know if they still use the cane today at the independent school that you attended? And to what extent? Is other forms of CP than the cane used with younger boys? As an Old Boy with a strong connection to your school, you surely must have a pretty good idea of what goes on there. Do you not?

No, I don't know.

I wouldn't be surprised if the cane still existed and was occasionally used. The strap - which was the most used form of corporal punishment - was abolished in 1990 (while I was at the senior school), but I don't know the status of the cane - which existed in theory, but was used very rarely. I also wouldn't be surprised at all if smacking existed at the two prep schools. But I don't know.

Yes, I still have some connection to the school - but this isn't something that comes up in normal conversation.

Eventually these independant schools will have to fall into line with government policy, it is just a matter of when. The Victorian Government needs to take a stronger stance on this issue. No one should be above the law. If there is a law against the use of corporal punishment in Victoria and it is not followed to the letter, any school breaking the law should be charged for doing so. With the threat of heavy fines and/or imprisonment as a deterent I'm sure all independant schools would cease their practices very quickly.

The thing is - there isn't a law against corporal punishment in Victorian schools. There never has been. There is a Ministerial Regulation (first issued in 1983) that bans corporal punishment in state schools, but that regulation specifically states that it only applies to state schools:

*****

PART 5 - DISCIPLINE IN STATE SCHOOLS

25. Application

This Part only applies to State schools.

26. Restraint from danger

A member of the staff of a State school may take any reasonable action that is immediately required to restrain a student of the school from acts or behaviour dangerous to the member of staff, the student or any other person.

27. Corporal punishment not permitted

A member of the staff of a State school must not administer corporal punishment to any State school student.

*****

(Education Regulations, 2000)

Independent schools are certainly not above the law. But there isn't yet a law that bans corporal punishment.

In all probability, there soon will be. A new Education and Training Act is currently being debated in Parliament and that Act does contain a prohibition on the registration of schools using corporal punishment (which will basically lead to an eventual ban - independent schools have to re-register every six year or so, and cannot operate without registration), and it's expected to pass Parliament very shortly. If it passes (and that is almost certain), then I would be very surprised if any independent school failed to obey such a law - and if they did, I would support the full weight of the law coming down on that school.

But no such law exists yet.

What about the cane in South Australian public schools.When was it banned and how often did it get used? Were 6 cuts across a boys backside a standard punishment?

My wife is South Australian and was educated in public schools. She said she never saw a cane used in any of her schools.

Well, it was definitely used in South Australian schools. I know of a few croweaters who experienced it and the regulations certainly allowed for it.

However South Australia had the strictest regulations on its use. Unlike state schools in other states where often a significant number of teachers were allowed to administer corporal punishment, the regulations in South Australia limited its use to the Principal and one other teacher authorised by the Principal in any school. So if a Principal disagreed with corporal punishment, he could prevent its use in that school - and even if they allowed it, there were only two teachers allowed to administer it, unlike the case in some other states where a significant number of teachers could have the power, in some cases, even if the Principal didn't like it.

Incidentally - an unintended consequence of this regulation meant that South Australia was the only state where secondary school girls in state schools were most likely to be corporally punished by male teachers. Victoria and Queensland banned the corporal punishment of girls in state schools altogether (it doesn't mean it didn't happen - if nobody complained a teacher could get away with it), and NSW, the ACT, and Western Australia banned its use for girls over 12 (and Western Australia required a female teacher to administer it even if a girl was under 12).

South Australia discouraged the use of corporal punishment on girls but did not actually ban it. So it could be used in exceptional circumstances. And because only two teachers could administer it and in nearly all cases, those two teachers were male, this created a situation that girls were corporally punished by male teachers in some cases.

But overall, corporal punishment was probably rarer in South Australian state schools than state schools in other states. Added to this was the fact that South Australia allowed for the judicial corporal punishment of boys up until the early 1970s, and it probably changed the attitude towards corporal punishment in that state - when boys who burned down buildings were caned by order of Magistrates, it probably seemed a little absurd to be using it on boys who had forgotten their homework.

My knowledge of South Australian school practices is less extensive than my knowledge of Victorian practice, but here is what I can tell you.

First of all, I assume that you are talking about State Schools when you use the term public schools - schools that are fully funded by the government. That's the most common meaning of the term in Australia, but it's not the only meaning - strictly speaking a number of the elite independent schools are more properly referred to as Public Schools for historical reasons. That useage is less common in Australia than it used to be, but it's still around in some places.

Corporal punishment was banned in state schools in South Australia around 1990 - it's hard to give an exact date because it was phased out gradually from the late 1980s onwards. It was definitely completely out of use by 1993 - and it looks like it was virtually gone, if not gone, by 1990. I haven't been able to find a date for a ban in private schools in that state - apparently there has been one, and its occurred since 1997, but I can't find any regulation or Act that actually shows its happened. I think I'm going to need to contact DECS to ask what is going on.

As for how often it was used - that's a hard question to answer. In general, as mentioned in a message I just posted here, it was probably used less often than in other states - but in particular individual schools, it could have been used far more often than the norm. A lot depended on the Principal's attitude. If a Principal disagreed with corporal punishment, he could basically ban it in a school - a power he (nearly always he) didn't necessarily have in other states.

South Australian regulations laid down no specific method as to how corporal punishment could be administered (though they stated it could not injure or degrade) - six strokes of the cane on the buttocks would probably have been seen as a severe punishment at the top end of the scale - but would have been perfectly permissable.

Hmmm, Mike, I thought this thread was closed. Or only to those who ask too many questions about behaviors others would rather keep in the shadows.

Halliwell, I am at an age where nothing surprises me. I think it is a coat of many colours. I believe we need to be clear when we write about schools. We need to include in posts whether the schools are public, private or independant to avoid confusion.

In my earlier dispatch I can only go by what my wife told me when she was at school. She attended Graigmore High in SA in the seventies.

In regards to stories we have from our friends and collegues, perhaps this little ditty is something to think about when it comes to authenticity.

I once asked a Kiwi collegue if she knew Rachel Hunter. I was just joking with her at the time but her answer was, "I don't know her personally, but I do know someone who does!". The point is do you believe what you are told and do you believe what you read? We all know someone who knows something about a certain topic. Just how much is the question.

The same applies to friends and collegues. Do you trust them to tell you the truth, or do you pass their stories off as a figment of the imagination?

This story comes from a conversation I was involved in once. I lived in Adelaide for 3 months whilst in the armed forces and met my wife. I won't to go into too much detail but being single I lived in quarters on base, sharing a hut with 4 South Australian recruits.

These young men ( and they were young compared to me) had not long been out of school,(enlisting in 1977 at 17) and they talked about their previous schools. One of the guys started talking about CP however, not of them mentioned the cane being used at their schools.

Dean and I seem to have friends with different stories so I think they cancell each other out in the end which puts us back to square one. What do we know, and how much of it is true?

The thing is I don't just base things on what I've heard from other people.

I have some access to things like official policy documents, school records - being a professional historian working for a company that gets commissioned to write histories of institutions including schools means I can often get access to material that isn't generally available to the public.

I also have very easy access to every academic library in Victoria and more importantly my work requires me to spend considerable time working in those libraries so I can easily look things up - like school histories - and there are a few concerning South Australian schools, including some state schools.

One thing I have noticed is how people's experiences can differ considerably depending on which schools they attended - while you do get commonalities across the systems, you can get a wide scope of differences as well.

Also - just rereading your message - era can make a difference as well.

This isn't something I have researched in any detail - it's on my list to research because I think it's potentially interesting - but I haven't got around to it yet.

You mention that some of your information was obtained from men who were aged around 17 in 1977 - so boys who would have gone through secondary school in the 1970s.

I have seen references to a serious attempt by the Dunstan government of South Australia which held office from 1970 to 1979 to abolish corporal punishment in state schools. I've never found out the details of exactly what happened. I know corporal punishment was back in use in South Australia by 1983, because there was very considerable fanfare about the fact that Victoria was the only state without it in state schools that year - but I'm unclear if Dunstan failed to ban it, or if the ban was overturned (I have a legal guide from 1978 in front of me that is very clear on the fact that it is legal in South Australia as in other states - so any ban can't have lasted long). It seems to me possible though that boys whose secondary schooling was in the 1970s in South Australia might well have had a somewhat unusual experience in comparison to boys of other eras if there were serious or semi-successful attempts at abolition at the time.

(I'm also wondering if the references I have seen might have confused the banning of judicial corporal punishment of boys in 1971 with a ban on its use in schools - like I say, this is something I want to research.)

Dean and I seem to have friends with different stories so I think they cancell each other out in the end which puts us back to square one. What do we know, and how much of it is true?
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Sorry but I think that is a cop out. Victoria is a real place. The independent schools exist. In fact the 13 are the pride of Victoria if not Australia. There is story upon story around the internet about how caning does exist and is practiced today in these schools. A purported deputy headmaster of one of these 13 has a newsgroup on Yahoo that has been in existence for over 5 years where he anonymously publishes statistics about the number of canings in his school, extolling the virtue of the practice---even has graphs and charts by grade and offense.

One hears continually of the support in these independent schools for corporal punishment, yet no one, even those who are Old Boys at these schools and who still maintain a connection with these schools or perhaps even has a friend or relative who has a child attending one of these schools knows anything for sure? No one has any fact at his disposal about any of this. Or can answer any question about it? That is they have no fact that they are willing to disclose nor any question that they are willing to answer.

As I said previously, this is stuff of which Dan Brown's books are made. There seems a conspiracy of silence to protect the schools' practice of CP. At best this is bizarre. At worst it is hypocritical of those who support the practice to be ashamed of it or to be unwilling to support its use in public. Shouldn't one expect a more open and honest approach from institutions that claim to be turning out the best in their society?

Just for the record, I think you mean the 11, not the 13.

Scotch College
Geelong Grammar
Melbourne Grammar
Wesley College
Xavier College
Geelong College
Carey Grammar
Haileybury College
Caulfield Grammar
Brighton Grammar
St Kevin's College

Those are the eleven members of the Associated Public Schools of Victoria - I can't think of any significant grouping of thirteen schools.

As for them being the pride of Australia - they are among the pride of Australia in terms of education - but schools like Sydney Grammar, the King's School, Prince Alfred College would rather object to the Victorian schools being described as the pride of Australia - not to mention quite a number of girls schools.

And while those of us who attended them take a great pride in these schools, a lot of other Australians view them a bit differently, often as relics of the past, and in some ways they are right.

I have to say though, I'm not sure why you think these schools should be as public as you seem to think they should be. What business is it of yours what goes on in those schools anyway?

Lotta could be right - many things Australian are hard to believe - the kangaroo for example. Those who believe in wombats might also believe the cane is still used in select Victorian schools. (It is amazing what digital effects can achieve).

And a closed mouth catches no flies.

Dean, I have read your post and I offer some thoughts and constructive critism. Firstly, I think it would be a good idea if you did conduct some research and print your findings here. This would settle a lot of speculation on the SA debate.

Secondly, Your reference to being a professional researcher, do you realise how many times you have said this?

I have some access to things like official policy documents, school records - being a professional historian. Dated Feb 24.

This dated Feb 21: I'm an historian by training and profession, specialising in institutional histories, including school history's. As a hobby, alongside my work, I specifically research the history of corporal punishment in Australian schools.

In another message dated Feb 21:As a professional historian, it is my dream at some point to be able to write a proper and definitive history of school corporal punishment in Australia.

I don't wish to embarrass you. Perhaps you forgot you already told us. As I know what you do, I shall tell you what I do. I am a Workplace Trainer and Assessor so I do know about research and how to undertake the task. I also work for myself so there is a large difference re; self employed versus working for a boss.

I think Halliwell misunderstood the content of my last post so I will refresh his memory. My reference was to Dean and I having friends with stories which relates to South Australia only, and the difference in reports from these people. My friends are South Australian so I hope this will clarify where I got my reports from.

The other issue I wish to clarify is my story of the 17 year old guys I shared quarters with. They didn't receive the cane at their schools as they said, but they did say they received the strap. Interesting isn't it?

And for those reading KK's post. Very funny KK. Nearly as funny as the English jokes we share here. Something like;
How do you know when a plane load of English people arive at the airport? When the engines stop, the whining sound continues! A joke by Warren Mitchell after he became an Australian resident.

And I think you may mean Bunyip's, not Wombats. As for many things Australian being hard to believe, some peoples ignorance is only surpassed by their stupidity. Wouldn't you agree?
I'm certain you're not one of those armchair critics.

Dean, I have read your post and I offer some thoughts and constructive critism. Firstly, I think it would be a good idea if you did conduct some research and print your findings here. This would settle a lot of speculation on the SA debate.

As I have said, this is something I would like to research and it is on my list. But this is a hobby and it has to take a second place to the work I do to put food on the table. Having said that, I will probably be in Melbourne's Educational Resource Centre early next week, and I'll see if I can find anything with a quick search. There might be something easy to get. The only substantial material I have currently with me on South Australian schools relates to one of South Australia's major independent schools, Prince Alfred College - they used the cane but independent school practice doesn't tell you anything about state school practice.

Secondly, Your reference to being a professional researcher, do you realise how many times you have said this?

Yes, I do and it's quite deliberate and I'm not embarassed about it.

I've been on this forum some time - a couple of years at least I would say - and I don't assume that anyone reading one of my current posts will necessarily have read anything that I have written before. So in cases where I think the fact that I am a professional researcher and historian with a specific interest in the history of corporal punishment is potentially relevant, I say that I am. Sometimes topics on this forum can be resurrected after a period of some months - and in those cases, new people may well have joined the forum. I find it best practice simply to mention where my knowledge comes from, just in case somebody new is reading a meesage.

I don't wish to embarrass you. Perhaps you forgot you already told us. As I know what you do, I shall tell you what I do. I am a Workplace Trainer and Assessor so I do know about research and how to undertake the task. I also work for myself so there is a large difference re; self employed versus working for a boss.

Sure - lots of people know how to research. It's not at all unusual. All my being a professional historian means in this regard though is that I can sometimes access material which isn't avaialable to the general public (there's a lot of stuff stored in stacks at the university libraries) and that the nature of my work requires me to spend quite a lot of time in places like academic libraries. Most of the research is pretty standard stuff - access and opportunity is what differs.

The other issue I wish to clarify is my story of the 17 year old guys I shared quarters with. They didn't receive the cane at their schools as they said, but they did say they received the strap. Interesting isn't it?

Interesting, yes. But not surprising.

As I said in an earlier post, South Australia set no regulations as to what method or methods of corporal punishment could be used in its state schools. This is in contrast to New South Wales and Western Australia that specifically stated that only the cane could be used and only on the palms of the hands, Victoria that specifically stated that only the strap could be used and only on the palms of the hands, and Tasmania which specifically stated that either the strap or the cane could be used - but only on the palms of the hands. Queensland and South Australia however made no regulations as to instrument or as to where that instrument could be used. In Queensland, the cane dominated, though the strap wasn't unheard of. In South Australia, both the cane and the strap were used in different schools - which method was used was largely at the discretion of the Principal. The same applied as to whether the punishment was administered on the hand or the buttocks - no regulation, the Principal had discretion.

Jackie's question specifically asked about the cane, so that is the question I responded to. But the strap was also used in South Australian state schools.

Yes, I did mean 11 not 13---my error.

__________________________________________________________________
Dean wrote:

I have to say though, I'm not sure why you think these schools should be as public as you seem to think they should be. What business is it of yours what goes on in those schools anyway?
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And I have to say though, I'm not sure why you think these schools should be able to operate under a veil of secrecy, particularly when it comes to an issue like caning little boys. Makes me wonder what they have to hide. They certainly like positive publicity and are not hesitant to tell the world of their accomplishments in other areas, are they? It is on this issue of CP that they get real secretive and very silent and don't want the general public to know what is going on. Makes me suspicious. Either there is something to hide or they are just hypocrites who will not stand up for what they believe in.

Mike wrote (in part):

And I think you may mean Bunyip's, not Wombats. As for many things Australian being hard to believe, some people's ignorance is only surpassed by their stupidity. Wouldn't you agree?

Yes, I do agree - that is really what my post was about - people with limited experience and knowledge of the World are at a disadvantage when it comes to assessing veracity. One of the problems is that the common and the ordinary is not usually specifically documented. Years later it is hard to determine what ordinary people thought and did. Oftentimes, the clues come from casual mentions in personal letters and news accounts. For example, If the punishment strap is common place and in everyday use it is only likely to be mentioned casually or in connection with an extraordinary event, or perhaps in a work of fiction. Many movies and TV stories set in past times do a lot of harm by being quite careless in portraying past life and attitudes. USA original material is especially bad in this regard. Good books including novels can counter this. Mark Twain, for example, is believed to provide an accurate account of life and attitudes on the Mississippi at a certain time in history.

Quite a few postings to this forum are fictional. Some are not.

According to a former Prime Minister the steady flow of migrants into Australia had the advantage of raising the average IQ of both Australia and the rest of the world. Untrue, of course.

"According to a former Prime Minister the steady flow of migrants into Australia had the advantage of raising the average IQ"

Every kangaroo born in Australia raises the average IQ!

And I have to say though, I'm not sure why you think these schools should be able to operate under a veil of secrecy, particularly when it comes to an issue like caning little boys. Makes me wonder what they have to hide. They certainly like positive publicity and are not hesitant to tell the world of their accomplishments in other areas, are they? It is on this issue of CP that they get real secretive and very silent and don't want the general public to know what is going on. Makes me suspicious. Either there is something to hide or they are just hypocrites who will not stand up for what they believe in.

I don't believe these schools should be able to operated under a veil of secrecy and I don't believe that they do. Your average independent school here gives out far more information about its general policies and practices than your average state school does. My old school publishes the Xavierian once a year, Xavier News four times a year, I think, it issues prospectuses - these schools produce a lot of information for public consumption.

They don't generally seem to outline their disciplinary policies and procedures - but nor do state schools.

I don't agree with a veil of secrecy. I do agree with privacy. When I was 13, we went on a school trip to Canberra - we found ourselves being followed around by a TV news crew. Some people seem to think that the kids who go to these schools are public fodder. Well, they're not, and they shouldn't be.

Dean wrote:

They don't generally seem to outline their disciplinary policies and procedures - but nor do state schools.

I don't agree with a veil of secrecy. I do agree with privacy.
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Xavier puts out a lot of information about their school at their website...but not one iota of information regarding their policies particularly as they affect discipline or corporal punishment, even though the policy is referred to in the application form.

State schools don't have to discuss the issue of CP as they don't cane little boys or girls. They can't, so it is a non-issue for them. It is not for independent schools.

If such a policy allowing CP of students exists at Xavier and other Independent School (and we both know they do) then it goes beyond privacy to the level of secrecy that it is never mentioned anywhere, that there are no official statistic available on the practice and that everyone seems to have taken a blood oath of secrecy not to talk about it.

Dean I sent you email privately of statistics about CP that supposedly is going on at one of the independent schools and being reported on a group by one of its administrators which you ignored much the way you ignore issues I raise here that you do not want to address. I cannot imagine if I am aware of this particular group that you are not. The level of this CP reported could not possibly be unknown in independent school circles or in the formal organization of independent schools (forget the name AISA or something like that). You guys are on each other's campuses all the time if only for sporting events. I find it really difficult to believe that no one knows anything.


The loyalty and dedication of Old Boys who went through these institutions and who often send their children to these institutions or even work in these institutions is astounding to me. "Cult" is the only word that comes to my mind...a closed, protected, secret society where the cane is as important as the soccer ball or the textbook and where there seems to be an indoctrination that the cane/strap is the centerpiece of an organized, disciplined school

I find all this both repelling and fascinating because it is so alien to me.


I honestly don't expect a response as this is both of us chasing our tails. I will question and you will know nothing about what I am asking and my jaw will drop open and we start again. Best to just let it go.