By the way, any form of investigation, technical (e.g. computer registrations, credit card fee payments to FR site), historical investigation (e.g. checking school records of the correct period), discussions with former pupils of my school who knew me, including my best friend (female) at the time, will confirm that I am indeed female, in my early fifties, and am who I say I am, and was subject to the experiences I have described at the period stated. (Which appears to be before 'S' was born). I am not entirely sure, but I think there may even be a picture with me in it on the FR site. Not sure because like some of the many others it is not specifically dated.

We do not have access to the punishment books of the time as these are kept under a '50 year rule' embargo.
I have no fear that that their contents (or lack of them) will contradict my information on this subject in any way in the future.

Oh, and by the way, the infamous (and unsightly) green knickers were actually standard 'Gym Kit'. I have made this point before (and well before the FR site was started) but they were equivalent to boys 'Gym Shorts' in concept at the time. We even walked down the street in them on occasion. (Although we were embarrassed on these occasions the school obviously considered them adequate 'external or normal clothing' for appearing in public.)

Some of you may have seen my post some time ago (on the subject of whether in reality girls were ever beaten on the bare bottom at school).

The only credible instance which I have ever come across was one of our family grandmothers (now dead)who during a conversation with other mothers and grandmothers about bringing up our respective children etc, admitted shamefacedly that she had had the birch when at her convent school in Ireland before the 1st World war. This was for skipping mass on more than one occasion (a heinous sin). It was administered by the Reverend Mother (Convent Headmistress)after a long lecture on evil deeds leading to evil habits. The grandmother said that she was then told she was to receive 12 strokes of the birch and ordered to fetch and place a chair in front of the Reverend Mothers desk. She then had to kneel on the chair, raise her skirts, take down her drawers and bend over. 12 strokes were then given. She would have been about 13 years old at the time.

The grandmother commented 'I only ever got it once (i.e. on one occasion)and I made sure I never got it again!'

Other independently validated reports from (Southern)Ireland (which was administratively part of the UK till 1921) indicate the birch was still in use in some schools, on girls as well as boys, at least until the Second World War.

When I was a girl at senior school (sixties) the one (and only) time I got the slipper I was told to wait in the room (on my own) while the teacher went to get the slipper. Then I was given a formal punishment(6 on the bottom, on my knickers, touching my toes). I have women friends though who remember from primary school seeing girls from other classes come into their class to be slippered by their teacher, who happened to be the deputy head. It seems to have been quite common in the UK at that date.

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I am not going to go into too much detail, but I am sure the other women contributors will remember always having at least one week in four off gym and swimming etc. If you wanted to push it you could claim 2 weeks from time to time without serious question. When it gets to taking off 3 weeks out of 4 over almost a term (possible with a male PE teacher), and the female Deputy Head gets to hear of it, in those days (Sixties) you were in trouble (it was described as equivalent to 'deliberate and persistent truancy'). After determining that I was physically completely OK, I was ordered to attend PE lessons. I was officially and formally punished for the offence immediately after the next PE lesson (6 on the bottom with a slipper, on my knickers, after being ordered to bend over and touch my toes in a room adjacent to the gym). The Deputy Head asked me later if this had been carried out. I still think that it was fair by the standards of the times. I actually liked gym and dancing, and was basically seeing if I could get away with it. I remember being glad that I didn't get the cane on that occasion. (I never got the cane, although the Deputy Head caned many girls on the hand, to my certain knowledge.)

I also have had many years of coming to terms with the fact that personal and observed experiences in the past have left me with a great desire to explore the ideas and feelings of other people about how they have coped with and responded to corporal punishment. I find it disconcerting that I feel able to pursue information relating to such experiences, yet would find the application of many of the 'commonplace' (in my experience) types of such discipline to my own chidren unacceptable in most cases. (However it would have been acceptable for them to receive corporal punishment for serious offences like bullying, stealing etc.)

Nancy Friday in her book 'My Secret Garden' explored some of the dilemmas and realities of how we women both approach and talk about this subject. This book is relevant to the ideas of women my age (I was at school in the sixties). Her later book 'Girls on Top' moves the debate into 'modern' times and demonstrates how ideas have moved on, and also gives the key to why my daughters and their friends do not 'connect' into our interests automatically (or even recognise them). (Whereas I have been able to hold 'interesting and animated' conversations with the family grandmothers about their experiences) Education (at least in the UK) had a disciplinary framework and ethos basically unchanged for 100 years, whatever the government thought, said, or perhaps even did. Many pupils of whatever sex from 1875 to 1975 in the UK had common experiences of being caned or strapped for 'talking', 'not doing homework', 'truancy', 'bad behaviour', 'poor academic performance' etc etc etc.

It is only over the last twenty years that things have really changed. What we all have to remember is that before this time, experiences younger people can only fantasise about now, were extremely common. The interminable 'high school' soap operas current on TV today are simply working through the 'exciting fantasy/reality' media representations of their daily experiences in the same way that the early 'Grange Hill' or even 'St Trinians' (complete with Headmistress waving cane) worked through ours.

I'm not sure but I think I have given this information before. Anyway, our male PE teacher gave the slipper as a matter of standard practice for infractions related to PE and PE lessons, as did many other male and female PE teachers of the period (sixties). There appeared to be no requirement for a female teacher to be present, although I can recollect at least one occasion when one was 'about' during a slippering. She didn't seem to take much notice! My slippering was formal, for a known offence which I admit I had committed and I was asked by the female Deputy Head afterwards if the matter had been 'dealt with' (i.e. I had been punished). In that sense it was also 'official'. I still consider it to have been fair by the standards of the time as I knew what the likely consequences of my actions were.

Just like to tidy up one or two things. My senior school (North West London, sixties)used the cane and slipper on both boys and girls but was not particularly 'strict'(in the sense of attempted total rigorous mental and physical control of pupils) in the terms of the time. In terms of the state schools which used corporal punishment at that period it possibly tended to use this method rather more than others (such as detention, lines) simply because being less 'strict' than, say, a typical girls private school of the time, these methods were either ignored or were considered (and were) ineffective. I have had experience of the reality, and effects of attendance at really strict schools with my daughter and step-daughter who attended reasonably well-known UK private girls schools relatively recently. Highlights(?) (which I still view with disgust)included me, as an adult, being dressed down face to face by one of their housemistresses over one of them wearing a skirt to lessons which had acquired a few spots of paint or glue during practical lessons given by the school! This when I could not possibly be aware as they were then boarding! The other incident is possibly more serious and in my view should have lead to further action. However it did not happen to either of my girls (but did to one of their friends). At one of the schools during winter and in an intermittent rainstorm, a teacher insisted that a girl standing outside the school waiting for her parents should remove the 'non regulation' raincoat she was wearing (as it was not approved uniform) and wait as she got progressively wetter and colder. This was apparently a common occurrence. (The official coats were very expensive and very unfashionable. The girls had literally to be forced to wear them, and the parents forced to buy them.)

Getting back to the treatment of boys and girls at UK schools I attended as a girl. At primary school the slipper was used for both, (quite rarely, but typically in front of the class) and the cane very rarely, but believed to be applied to both for serious offences. (Boys tended to commit more serious offences than girls, although I seem to remember a theft by some older girls from the girls cloakroom at one stage.) I was aware of one slippering (a boy and a girl)which took place in the next door classroom to ours for 'going out of school at playtime'. I never saw the event although of course we questioned them about it afterwards. (Three on the bottom, bending over). The cane was mentioned once or twice in assembly for thefts and such (actually after the event and punishment now I think about it. 'These people have had the cane, and the matter is closed etc'), but took place only in the Headmasters study. I was only vaguely aware at the time, and never knew anyone who got it (or admitted they had). All of us, girls and boys, at that time expected the cane was given on the bottom, like the slipper. I can't remember feeling in danger of getting either at primary school.

Senior school was very different. This was a big North London school, actually originally a 'Secondary Modern' school at that time converting to a full 'Comprehensive'. The Headmaster (we believed) had come from the boys Private School sector in the UK, which at that time according to my male friends, and public record, used the cane extensively, including allowing older pupils such as Prefects to beat younger boys. At this school the cane was used for both boys and girls. The Headmaster and male Deputy head would regularly cane boys on the bottom, and the female Deputy Head would cane girls on the hand in her room. We girls could be caned for the same offences as the boys (Smoking, Truancy, offences relating to wearing of uniform, lateness, rudeness etc)and many of my classmates and other girls were caned over the period I was there. (I managed to avoid it). On one occasion however I remember taking a record book for another teacher to the female Deputy Heads room and distinctly hearing one(older)girl getting six strokes of the cane as I waited outside the door.

One more than one occasion at senior school I also witnessed public canings of boys in assembly. These were for really serious offences, (Theft, bullying etc). The Headmaster would announce that the school would wait behind after the final hymn. After the main part of the assembly The Head would then say that a serious matter had occurred, and describe the offence(s. The whole school then witnessed the boy, or boys, being called out from the audience to the stage. The Head would then say something about 'these boys are now going to be punished' and either ask one of the other teachers (e.g. Deputy Heads) on the stage to get the cane from the side of the stage, or sometimes it was on the table in front of him. He would then take the cane and call the boy or one of the boys to the middle front of the stage, in the area in front of the table. The boy was then told to face the right hand (from our viewpoint) side of the stage and bend over. The head then ordered the boy to fold back his blazer and touch his toes. I remember the head usually put the cane across the boys bottom and asked if he was ready. They always said yes! The head then proceeded to give them 'six of the best'. (It seemed to be always six). Afterwards the Head would put the cane back on the table, tell the boy to stand up, and send him to stand at the side of the stage. The Head then said something like 'let that be a warning to you all' before dismissing the school. During the proceedings the school looked on in literally shocked silence. I don't remember any of the boys crying out to any degree, but I do remember hearing the sharp intakes of breathe on each stroke and gasps for breath between. The swish of the cane and the impact on the boys bottoms was very loud in the deathly silence. I found these occasions very stressful and fear inducing. I remember on at least one occasion, girls near me bursting into tears as a caning proceeded.

We generally felt sorry for the boys, but were never actually sure whether it might not have been the same for us girls (but probably on the hands)if really bad offences had been committed. It was certainly a feared punishment, both as receiver and audience.

I am certain that these very public events must have been officially recorded.

In respect of the slipper at senior school. This seemed to be mostly associated with PE (Gym)and games lessons. It did apply, and was applied, fairly regularly to both boys and girls. Many of my girl and boy classmates got it on a semi-informal basis. A smaller, but significant number of both sexes were slippered officially and formally for known offenses, usually 'in private' (i.e.on their own or 'one at a time')either in a room next to the Gym, or in the Gym itself.

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We have to be realistic here. I'm not quite sure why you seem to think my school was out of line in respect of what was going on in the sixties. I can understand why today it seems incredible that people at school were ever punished by methods which today are seen as potentially (or entirely) illegal, but in the UK, unfortunately, it was the case that they they were, and at that date it was entirely legal. My school was not unique, and given it was in the South East, was probably 'capable of being described' as being in the forefront of educational good practice (as usual as imported from the USA)particularly as it was one of the first designated full comprehensives in London (never mind anywhere else). I do know from my husband and other friends and relations from the North of England, Scotland and Northern Ireland that corporal punishment in the sixties and seventies was very generally applied for both sexes, and thinking carefully, that hardly any of my immmediate relations or acquaintances avoided receiving or personally witnessing some formal corporal punishment during their time at school. Today it does sound incredible. When I went to school it was life as we knew it, and it was the same for me as thousands of UK school girls during the sixties.

One of the factors we forget is that during the sixties in the UK many single sex schools were being combined. This unfortunately in practice often meant that the Headmistress of the very efficient girls High School would be displaced in favour of the Headmaster of the school they were being combined with (under comprehensivisation). The disciplinary system would therefore in many cases be biased towards the male 'Grammar School' model (itself based on the 'Public Schools'). This is what I believe I and my girl colleagues suffered from, although in its general form the basic idea was not wrong. (Which is why I can accept the discipline I received as a schoolgirl.)

When we look at cases such as the Northwich (Leftwich Green) High School situation in the mid-seventies, what many people do not know is that Janet Dines (Headmistress) resigned fairly soon after the case relating to the use of the cane had been dismissed on principle. This was not related to the use of CP, but she simply refused to accept that her all-girls high-academic-performance Grammar School should become a state-run mixed comprehensive school. The personal issue was that she would not be the Headteacher, as the male head of the combined boys school would take over. Dreadful but true!!

Don't think I need to recount again minute procedural details of my formal six of the best with a slipper which I got as a girl in senior school in London UK in the sixties. (Itis on the forum). I don't hold a grudge against the male PE teacher who administered it. It was for a known offence, known also at least to the Deputy Head (female), and I was expecting to be punished once I knew I had been found out. The form of punishment was common/appropriate for the times, related to the offence and the circumstances and no more or less than anyone else would have got in a similar situation. It was administered properly, with explanation, effectively in private, and I accepted the process. I would however consider it inappropriate for my daughters to be punished by a male teacher in school this way currently, as the direct implications would nowadays imply that it was being done for personal reasons, rather than simply representing someone applying the discipline and punishment standards of the time.

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Did the slipper hurt? Yes it did. I was wearing my Gym knickers but every stroke of the slipper stung an awful lot. It was very difficult to remain bending over, and very difficult to keep touching my toes. (In fact I remember changing to holding on to my ankles) The force of strokes felt as though they would knock me over (It was a mans big plimsole and I am quite small). It was also quite noisy, the sound of the whacks were very loud and echoed round the room. I was told I was to get six but after about three I sort of lost count and remember thinking 'please stop'. I did not say anything however, and tried not to make any noise. (This was expected at that date, I don't know how I knew, but we knew.) I was determined not to cry, and did not do so directly as a result of the punishment. Afterwards I can only describe the feeling in my bottom as a very warm glow. The effect was to cause my 'offending'to stop, and to make me wish to avoid similar punishment again.

I would expect the effects of a strap or tawse on the bottom to be similar in perception and severity to the slipper. I would think the cane stings a lot more than either on the bottom. At school I feared getting the cane on my hands (with good reason), and think the tawse on the hands must be of similar agonising intensity (I have talked to several Scots who got it). After all, (like most women) I am absolutely certain the surface area of my hands (or any other conceivable physical object on bad days!) is in all circumstances somewhat less than that of my bottom, so the same force applied must be intensified, while in some ways hands are also more sensitive.

I was only beaten once at school. As you may have seen elsewhere on the forum, I did see boys being beaten, at assembly, cane on the bottom. I was also well aware of canings given to my girl friends on their hands (or again with the slipper). I found the occurrence of CP to myself or others quite stressful, but on reflection somewhat less so once I had had a similar formal punishment. One observation which supports this effect comes from a woman friend of mine (similar age) who as a girl went to school in Hong Kong. She was caned quite severely and formally on two occasions on the hands. The first time she was really terrified and got the shakes (she describes to this day as 'literally quaking with fear') plus other fairly obvious involuntary physical symptoms of justified fear. The second time, although actually expecting to be more severely punished, she did not suffer anywhere near the same level of fear reaction, but her girl companion who had never been caned before showed all the symptoms she herself had suffered when about to get it for the first time.

'Present fears are less than horrible imaginings' may be a old-fashioned saying, but it was generated at a date when practical experience and everyday events were not either discounted or ignored as valid sources of interpretation of perception and reality in everyday situations.

I can't imagine how my girlfriends and classmates who were caned by our female Deputy Head managed to keep their hands out. (luckily I never got it) If you burn your hand on a stove the body makes it pull away automatically. It must take tremendous willpower to take more than a couple of strokes in a genuine punishment situation. I remember asking one of my friends about it when she had had six (three on each hand) for repeated smoking. She managed to hold out her hands, but she did say they shook an awful lot both before during and after the caning. I remember her hands were quite severely bruised for some time.

I used to listen to Today in Parliament. However I found it increasingly irritating due to the interminable personal attacks which were either disguised in sleazy rhetoric, or degenerated rapidly into direct personal abuse. I gave up listening because eventually I could not hear any element of policy relevant to the governing of the country being rationally discussed against the 'background noise'.

Recently, although Today in Parliament has not improved either in the nature of its content, or standard of debate, I had occasion to listen to the program. It was horribly familiar, not by act of memory, or recent exposure, but by comparison to other forums which otherwise should have held my attention.

For avoidance of doubt, my case rests, sine die.

Fran wrote the following in response to the ‘Missionary Statement of Position’ which is currently on Page 21.

Having experienced formal CP in school on one occasion(now notorious no doubt)and also seen several instances of 'informal' CP (cuffing, striking with books etc) by teachers I am still of the view that at the period (sixties)the formal instance was not abuse. The informal instances however to my mind were at the time, and still seem so today.

One of the differences was that the formal instance involved consideration of the offence, and the implied behavioural contract of the school situation, both by the senior teachers involved and myself. The punishment I received was for a recognised offence, was expected by me (at least in general concept), was considered by more than one teacher (one being my Deputy Headmistress), and was in line with known practice at the school. The informal instances were very one-sided applications of force to achieve immediate ends rather than an agreed process to terminate and rectify a recognised ongoing fault of behaviour.

It may seem odd (and it does to me) but although I can accept my own situation (and would accept the same result under exactly the same circumstances of age, society, educational practice) if the same were to have happened to one of my children in more recent times, this would be unacceptable. (This was not the case with my parents, despite never using any form of physical punishment or control at home.)

Does anyone else who experienced, or witnessed CP in their school(s) have similar problems in personally reconciling these issues?

I find it refreshing, and even a little emotionally affecting, that someone (at last) should have done enough homework to work out at least 'who is unlikely to be who'. (Use of parentheses=emotional temperature??) I have no idea in this case whether this was on the basis of identification of source computer or 'analysis of author style'. I will just say that 'analysis of author style' is a technique used to justify differences in tens-of-thousands of valuation units (pounds, dollars, yen, zloty, naira etc etc) in the value, or credibility of communications in respect of auction prices for letters etc. I will confirm that a lot of the information given in the above 'suspect posting' has been provided from time to time (and (almost incredibly, even to me) by me over a 5+ year period). I must just say that I do not ever remember using the term 't-shirt'. I may have, but not often, and it is not a word which springs easily to the pen as far as I am concerned.

It has been a characteristic of corporate computing, email and desktop-publishing over the last 4 years that they have had features enabling both senders and recipients of communications and documents to analyse the styles and 'reading difficulty level' of those items.

The analyses are based on such concepts as 'use of long words'. grammatical compliance, grammatical complexity, etc etc.

Today I can click on a tab and get such an analysis of any element of readable text as a feature of (e.g.) Word. The ability to check scores is there. From a standpoint of determining authorship, score each post against believed author. If any of mine (except obvious fakes based on compilations of data) go beyond 10% difference on style/content etc let me know. (PS Any use of 'swear words' or 'abusive language' are not my style, and almost immediately rule out any candidate for consideration).

Thanks for checking anyway. I won't be posting on anything like the site you describe [The Pants Club, the forum of our Honorary Life Member, George, that closed down before it opened] (which I also have no intention of visiting)or probably anywhere else from now on. A good reason is that, despite peoples fantasies about who I am, I am who and what I say I am, and therefore peolpe should be able to work out that the intent of such sites, orientation of actions described (both gender and direction), and likely level of debate would not support my interest.

I also find that I am becoming much less interested in all this anyway these days.

I can assure anyone that might want to know (and there would appear to be those that do), that when first purchased, with 'allowance for growth', me being small, the dreaded green knickers did come up to my armpits. (Well, nearly. It certainly felt like it.)The alternative was to have them virtually flapping round the knees. Most inelegant however worn until shrinkage with washing, and growth combined to rectify matters (a little).

OK, I have seen this situation before.
I appreciate that my contributions are small, personal (but real, therefore do not disappear in daylight, or under any other examination. I can prove any or all of my statements). When we get to the stage of the pretenders claiming that they are not pretending that they are pretending they are not pretending to be pretending that which they they would claim they never prentended to be in the first place, I have had enough. As one (as far as I can tell) of the few women (thank you those of my remote friends who I have no doubt about) who ever contribute to the forums in this interest group, I have had enough. Abby (or whoever) apologies, thank you for creating this forum, but goodbye, all of you. (And for the collected predatory w-----s who seem to have suddenly infected this space good riddance)

I am not sure I am the only poster of cryptic messages here, but I do take the point that there is a difference and balance to be struck between 'cryptic' (as in the UK Times Crossword) and literally 'from the crypt'.

As for grovelling requests, I think you will find that my previous posts on the forum cover the subject requested adequately. The difficulty is in finding them, particularly when buried in the threads of a topic. One grovelling request of my own, which would make life easier for all (and also give insight into consistency of author style, content etc)would be a facility to list contributions over time by contributor name, as well as by thread, or at least to search on name. I don't post under any other name, so if you find me, you find your information, here or elsewhere.

And as a personal thing, I am sorry but just sometimes I don't feel like going over and describing events which (however much of interest) are still capable of evoking strong negative feelings.

For those of us who were there, remember that the people who weren't are constantly regaled with the idea that if you can remember the sixties you weren't there either. On this forum I sometimes get the same feeling of puzzlement as when I read 'Alice Through The Looking Glass' as a girl. Creation of a parallel universe does not take away the option of not living in it.