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A Choice - Hand or Bottom?

March 2 2007 at 10:42 AM
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Some schools had a definite policy as to whether pupils should be caned on the hand or the bottom. In others it was left up to each individual teacher. Does anyone know of any instances where the pupil had the choice of which part of the body the punishment was to be administered?

 
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winston

Re: A Choice - Hand or Bottom?

March 2 2007, 11:47 AM 

Only on buttom,with shorts on..

 
 
skoolcane

Re: A Choice - Hand or Bottom?

March 2 2007, 1:07 PM 

I think that the hands were the prefered area for girls and the bottom for boys. Just to say I have never agreed with caning on the hands - far too dangerous - the bottom is "natures place" and safe for the intensity needed for a good deterrent.

SC

 
 

Re: A Choice - Hand or Bottom?

March 2 2007, 1:19 PM 

I think this was very common indeed. A was told boy a boy who went to the all-boys comprehensive in my town (where caning was more common than at my mixed comp) that teachers generally offered a choice between hand or bottom. Boy George mentions in his autobiography that the teachers at his school offerend him a choice. In the STOPP anti-corporal punishment book, there is an account of a boy who was going to be caned on the hands, but "offered" to take it on the backside -- the assumption seemed to be that taking it on the hand was a milder punishment (hurt less, less embarassing) but that the teacher would enjoy caning his bottom more. I think that at my school, first time and minor offenders got 1 or 2 on the palm, but serious or repeat offenders got 6 on the bum. I have often wondered how teachers offered the choice: were these prissy teachers even prepared to say the word "bottom"?

 
 
Wiorldwide Traveller

Caning in South African schools

March 3 2007, 11:38 AM 

Here in South Africa caning in schools was common right up until the early 90’s. The caning of girls was also much more common than in UK. Girls though were generally but not always, caned on the hand. I recall chatting to a couple of girls from South African Airways who both attended government, Afrikaans speaking schools and were caned more than once. One of them when asked to hold her hand out, asked if she could rather have it on the bottom but the teacher apparently refused.

 
 
george

Re: A Choice - Hand or Bottom?

March 4 2007, 1:07 PM 

Choice of on the hands or bottom was not very common after about the mid 50's and was left up to the teacher. The period after 1965 saw more caning done on the hands following advice from teacher organisations. they were afraid teachers who caned on the bottom may be accused of doing so for sexual motivation.

Before this the bottom was prefered far more than the hands for two reasons.

1) a stroke that landed on the fingers could damage the finger joints. I never heard of a caning on the bottom causing bone damage.

2) the number of strokes was greater then and a caning on the hand would result in the hand being too sore to use.....a good excuse for not working.

Two reasons prevailed for offering the boy a choice of having it on the hands or bottom. both these were because of the increasing concern about the way the cane marked or cut.

1) Some boys had skin conditions and many up to about 1960 had boils. These boils were often on the bottom aND UNLIKE a slipper, would break if hit with a cane. One can imagine the pain this would cause the boy and parents reactions to seeing the boils had been broken. Thuis was one reason why some teachers caned on the bare bottom.

2)If a teacher caned on trousers he had no way of knowing if the boys bottom was already sore from a caning that day, or a few days ago from another teacher or his parents.Worse still if the boy had just been slippered by another teacher.The situation could arise that a boy may have got six of the cane from the head for an offence. Later in the day, unaware of this a teacher could administer another three strokes across his bottom for failing to do his detention from earlier in the week.While parents would agree the punishments were deserved, but three more strokes on top of six already received that dat would leave horrific marks on the boy and would not be acceptable. By offering the boy a choice of having it on his hands or bottom the teacher partly covered themselves. The fault would rest withthe boy for taking the second caning on his already sore bottom.

George


 
 
Peter

Re: A Choice - Hand or Bottom?

July 23 2007, 4:22 AM 

We didn't have a choice as to wether we were caned on our hands or bottoms. Schools caned on the hand and when I was caned in the fourth and fifth grades and in first form I was told to raise my right hand and then my left hand. If I put my hand under my armpit or rubbed my hands after a stroke I was told to raise my hand again. For my last caning in first form the deputy headmaster gave me one additional stroke for putting my left hand under my armpit.

 
 
stevo

hand or bum

July 14 2011, 1:28 PM 

Went to high school in the mid 90's who used the cane. I personally got caned on 4 occassions and each time was across the bum. I think this was for 2 reasons:
1: Hitting the hand could lead to more serious damage and
2: The canings hurt like hell and the bottom can be given a number of very hard hits wiothout risk of lasting damage

 
 
OzSchoolboy

Re: A Choice - Hand or Bottom?

July 25 2011, 7:27 AM 

I attended a catholic boys high school for my secondary education and the leather strap was the implement used for corporal punishment. Most of the schoolmasters had a leather strap which consisted of leather strips sewn together with hid and a couple of the straps had a light strip of cork between the leather strips. You were given a choice as to whether to receive the strap on your hands or your buttocks. The head of the school had a strap with the cork and he strapped me twice, each time I had the strap marks on my bottom and I could see where the sewn area of the strap had hit my bottom.

The first time I received the strap my science master gave me the option of six with the strap on my hands or six with the strap on my bottom. I chose to receive my punishment on my bottom forgetting as I had only received corporal punishment on my hands with a cane during my primary school education and forgetting that I had swimming lessons that afternoon. My bottom was soundly whacked with the strap and after the second whack I was fighting back tears. I chose to receive the strap on my hands a couple of weeks later and I received six whacks across my right hand. Ultimately I chose to receive the strap on my bottom for the next nine strappings I received during my education.

On my last strapping I managed to stay bent over for the whole punishment as I had built up a tolerance to the vicious sting. Personally I think that choosing to receive my punishments on the one area of my body was a wise choice as you knew what to expect.


 
 
KK

Re: A Choice - Hand or Bottom?

July 25 2011, 7:47 AM 

OzSchoolboy wrote, in part:

Most of the schoolmasters had a leather strap which consisted of leather strips sewn together with hid and a couple of the straps had a light strip of cork between the leather strips.

Please, what is "hid". Are your sure the material was cork? What was its purpose?

 
 
JUNE

Re: A Choice - Hand or Bottom?

July 25 2011, 8:11 PM 

With us, there was no choice. It was always given on the hand. You might just get a single slap, but 3 on each hand was the usual. The leather [strap] was the only implement in use and all of the nuns and teachers carried one with them and most were prone to useing it for the slighest reason. Even a single slap, delivered with the mildest of force would leave your hand in throbbing agony. Can you imagine then the effect that 3 on each hand [given with a Venus Williams type swinging action] would have on the poor girl at the receiveing end. Often too the tip of the leather would connect with the rump of the hand or the thumb. This not only added to the pain but would also prolong the period of hurt.
Positioning the hand too was very important. Some girls would hold their hand out to the side, but I felt doing this was inviting the slap to hit the thumb. I always doled my hand out in front of me so that the leather made contact along the length of the hand. I found that getting slapped while seated in my desk was the worse of all. That way, there was no alternative but to hold the hand out to the side and because the proffered hand was at a lower level, the leather would make contact at the end of it's natural swing. The pain that followed would be serious.

 
 
Ozschoolboy

Strap construction

July 25 2011, 11:55 PM 

To KK,

I did not know why some of the schoolmaster's straps had the piece of cork in them until I spoke to my older sister who became a schoolmistress. She told me that the cork gave the strap extra weight so that the strap had a little more force behind it and it stung more. My sister's strap did not have cork in it but she told me she when she gave the strap she would administer the strap to the bottom and there was no choice for the recipient. What I meant to say was that the straps were sewn together with thick string and when I had my bottom whacked with the cork strap the outline of the stitching was visible on my bottom.

 
 
willyeckaslike

A Choice - Hand or Bottom?

July 26 2011, 7:30 PM 

Oz School boy

I have never been on the receiving end of a strap, either at home or school. I can well imagine what you say that it was very painful. But a cork layer between the two straps sewn together ? That cannot add much weight to it. As well all know cork floats in water. It may well add something to the feel of the strap, bulking it out to make it appear thicker, or by putting a filler between the two straps, may have made it stiffer and more manageable.

What I am wondering has there been an misreading of the word, cork/coin ?
I have read that the Jesuit brothers, put either one or two old big pennys in their straps between the two layers sewn together to give them more weight. Could this be the case ? Could someone with more experience than me give some insight into this ?





 
 

Another_Lurker

Those stitched in coins in punishment straps.

July 27 2011, 12:08 AM 

Hi willyeckaslike. More practical experience I certainly don't have, but I've come across references to stitched in coins several times and in several places. Here's one from a reliable contributor to this estimable Forum found very quickly from the search mechanism. I'm sure there are lots of others here.

Externally, plenty to be had. Here's an extract from the findings of an Investigation Commission into abuses in the Magdalene Asylums in Ireland on this page:

The leather straps: The official instrument used to administer corporal punishment was the leather strap. There were two kinds: one was a single piece of leather a 1/4 of an inch thick (0.63cm). It was about 19 inches long (48.2cm), and 2 1/2 inches wide (6.3cm), with one end shaped to form a handle. It was used to slap the palm of the hand. It weighed 5oz (147grms)

The second kind was a doubler. It was made in the shoemakers shop from two layers of leather approximately 2 1/2 inches wide (6.3cm) and 22 inches long (55.8cm). The two strips were sewn together and, again, one end was shaped to form a handle. Br Antonio (pseudonym), who worked in Ferryhouse, confirmed that coins were sometimes inserted between the two layers of leather when this strap was being assembled. He told the Investigation Committee:

"And they (the witnesses) are right what they say, because I opened the leather myself and saw there were coins in the leather strap, which were stitched in the shoe shop."

I must say the idea of a layer of cork inserted in a punishment strap stitched from two layers of leather surprises me. Agreed while new it might make the strap more rigid, but surely the rigidity would detract from the punitive effect rather than increasing it. The whole point of a strap is that it moulds itself rather nastily to the portion of the anatomy being punished. If the cork added weight to the strap that would indeed increase the pain, but having a very low density it wouldn't add appreciably to the weight.

Further, surely the flexing of the strap and the impacts during punishments would anyway rapidly cause the cork to crumble and disintegrate? Definitely sounds odd to me. I'm sure there is a logical explanation for the use in that particular context of the straps described by OzSchoolboy. I just can't think what it might be.

 
 
KK

Cork?

July 27 2011, 12:42 AM 

A cork layer would effectively, in my opinion, turn a double layer strap back into single layer. The impact of the top layer of leather would be greatly mutted by the cork beneath. Cork is soft and spongy and would absorb the shock rather than transmit it to the hand beneath.

If cork and coins have been confused, as seems likely, those reporting the presence of cork are likely to be reporting hearsay and not personal experience.

 
 
OzSchoolboy

Strap construction

July 28 2011, 2:33 AM 

Admittedly I am not a physicist or engineer so I cannot comment adequately to the above replies to my post. The layer between the strips of leather looked like cork and was quite flexibe. It may not have been cork at all, what I do know is that there seemed to be more weight with those straps than the ones without the middle layer. Other factors include the force of the swing by the relevant schoolmaster. Some of them really wanted to cause you great pain and I overheard one schoolmaster preferring to administer a short sharp shock with his strap rather than a sound strapping.

 
 
chandra

Bottom caning

July 28 2011, 5:53 AM 

Punishment by caning should always be on the buttocks preferably bare,if it is to be effective.My mother who was herself an school teacher used to say that unless kids have their bums reddened,they would not be good citizens.It appears that God has made human behind fleshy so that they can be chastised there.

 
 
Chris56

Hand of bum.

August 9 2011, 9:19 AM 

JUNE, Would you have preferred the punishment on the bottom?; I know it would hurt, too. Slightly more embarrassing; but less painful?

 
 
Mike Weston

I was given the choice once aged 14.

August 9 2011, 11:42 AM 

I wound up before the Headmaster on consecutive days. Fortunately my offences were minor otherwise I suspect that I would have been suspended.

On the second day, having caned my bottom the day before, he asked me if I would rather be caned on the hand rather than on my backside (the word he used).

Having been caned on the hand once before - one stroke aged 10 or 11, I didn't want a repeat so opted to take it on my bottom.

Hurt like hell on top of the bruises from the previous day. No-one to blame but myself for my stupidity in winding-up in that situation.

M.W.

 
 
june

Re: A Choice - Hand or Bottom?

August 9 2011, 12:47 PM 

Hi Chris----I don't think I'd have perfered getting it on the bottom in front of the whole class [or anywhere else for that matter]. It was humiliating enough holding your hand out for a slap. How much worse would it have been to bend over and maybe even to drop your skirt.
In the year above mine, there were four girls who operated as a gang and were notorious bullies. On weekend nights, they would often burst into our dormitory and pick out, maybe, ten girls. They would place a chair in the centre of the room, then each girl would in turn, have to lower her knickers, bend over and take, often up to six lashes across her bottom. On all too many occasions, I was on the receiving end of this. The resultant pain was different to that the hand punishment. There was very little throbbing, but a burning heat that came in waves. The afterglow too lasted much longer.



 
 
Jenny

Re: A Choice - Hand or Bottom?

August 9 2011, 5:15 PM 

Hi june

It was humiliating enough holding your hand out for a slap. How much worse would it have been to bend over and maybe even to drop your skirt.

Having been caned on both my hand (once) and my bum (7 times), I much prefer the latter target. Being caned on my hand was far more painful. I also had to bend over to be slippered in front of the (mixed sex) class on many occasions. I didn't really find it humiliating because it was common punishment so it was nothing out of the ordinary - tomorrow, someone else would be getting it.

The only time I did feel a bit embarrassed was when I was 15 and was caught running in the corridor: for the second time that day by the same teacher. As he didn't have a slipper with him, I expected to be taken to a classroom and slippered. Unfortunately, some first year boys were passing carrying their PE kit so the teacher borrowed a slipper from one of them and slippered me there and then in front of them. To make matters worse, my skirt was too short to provide sufficient coverage when I bent over. redface.gif


 
 
Chris56

Hand or Bottom

August 9 2011, 5:49 PM 

HI JUNE, Thanks for your reply. Only you know how you might have felt in those days. That business of being bullied (at Boarding School) ..... I was Bullied a lot, too. Not in that way, though. At least we went home at night. Did you not Complain? The Trouble is that - we look at the World as Adults ..... Complaining when we were young (at a different time) - is another matter. Some boys put extra underwear -
on - in case of punishment. Sports class punishments (at my School) were usually a wooden bat - or slipper (for boys) ..... so - we had less padding - as we were not allowed to wear anything underneath
our shorts. Thanks for your thoughtful reply!

 
 
kooboo

hand or bottom

August 10 2011, 9:26 AM 

with us there was no choice. bottom only, and done by one person in his office. the headmaster.told to face the door, and the dreaded words...BEND OVER.school blazer raised over back and the caning began. humiliating first time and scarey but other canings were just excepted. first time age 12 and last time 16. each time resulted in a very stinging bottom. i was never caned on the hand but can only imagine that also hurt.

 
 
june

Re: A Choice - Hand or Bottom?

August 10 2011, 2:07 PM 

Bullying was a common feature of boarding school life. It was indemic in my school. Every year and class had it's share of bullies. As I was the only girl from where I grew up in the school at that particular time, I was a rife target for being bullied,. As indeed were other girls in a similar position. Bullies generally seemed to come where there were a number of girls from the same area and maybe even related to each other. It was an accepted part of school culture back then. Indeed, looking back, with the exception of the Superior [a rather motherly old lady] every nun and teacher in the place were nothing more than insecure bullies. While today, a bully is despised and reported at the first oppertunity, back then, to be an informer was the worse crime possible. How times have changed.

 
 
Chris56

Hand or Bottom

August 10 2011, 10:32 PM 

HI June, Yes .... I will confirm that "informing" on people was considered to be bad - I can Clearly remember a Teacher saying that (words to the effect of) "You're not supposed to "tell" on the others".
The very idea of being caned - very late at night - on the bare bottom ..... is shocking. I know a lot of Boarding Schools were like it .... but - that hardly made it acceptable. I could say more.
Do you ever mention this subject to a Husband or Boyfriend?
I Hope you didn't have a problem of Waiting for any punishment - like the strap; etc. For some - the waiting was Certainly a punishment in itself.

 
 

Re: A Choice - Hand or Bottom?

August 11 2011, 10:12 AM 

Outside of message boards [like here],I have neve talked about it in any great detail. I have never spoken about it with my [ex]partner. It is something that I mostly try to keep to the back of my mind. Occasionally, I get an urge to talk or write about it and then it lies dormant within mefor ages. The subject invarably comes up when I meet old school friends. Most of them seem eager to talk about it but I feel a sense of shame and embarrasement.
As regards waiting for the punishment. I would go through a range of feelings and emotions prior to getting leathered. On being ordered to stand ''on the line'' [at the side of the classroom], my heart would begin to pound and I often felt that my bladder would empty. Out on the line, I would mentally toy with the idea that somehow there would be a last minute reprieve. As the teacher would fetch her leather, a resignation of the inevitable would come over and an acceptance that there was no way out. As the first girl was getting her slaps, I would be calculating in my mind at what time the worse of the pain would have passed.

 
 
Chris56

Hand or Bottom

August 11 2011, 9:51 PM 

Dear June, Thank you for your message. I am glad I didn't have such a hard time (in that respect).
I once waited a whole weekend for (What I thought) would be the Cane on a Monday morning. I didn't tell anyone. Not to my Parents. Not to any Brothers/Sisters - as I am the Only Child. As I was then a boy of
14 - I felt I would get the "Full Whack" (So to speak). A punishment book was kept, by the way - that was Law. I waited for my name to be read out (in assembly) .... and it was not called out! So I had Worried - All weekend - for nothing. I - Originally - had plans to wear extra underwear .... but thought better of it - when I was getting dressed on Monday morning.

Women usually communicate well over (very) personal matters - but we are all different. I did
go to a School reunion in 1994 - and I remember some women alluding to the Cane.

I presume then; you didn't talk to your Parents about the punishments? Chris

 
 
American Way

SIR REGINALD STEPHEN GARFIELD TODD

August 11 2011, 9:58 PM 

Bottom link shows the girls prefer it on the bare bottom over the hand with a rhino whip. Ouch.

This led to trouble when he personally caned on the buttocks a group of rebellious girl students, much to the consternation of their parents who regarded them as of marriageable age. First link is his 2002 obituary.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obituaries/1410080/Sir-Garfield-Todd.html

Monday 28 July 1947

MISSIONARY ACCUSED
OF FLOGGING GIRLS

Australian Associated Press

Re: SIR REGINALD STEPHEN GARFIELD TODD.

Native girls were beaten with a
rhinoceros-hide whip-some on their bare buttocks
-by a British missionary, a Shabani (Southern Rho-
desia) court was told yesterday.

CLICK

Bottom Line.

CLICK

 
 
Julie

A choice- hand or bottom

September 17 2011, 11:35 AM 

Hi Jenny,

I absolutely agree with virtually everything you say. I received the cane the first time across my hands, and the next time across my bottom. I felt it on both occassions; That was when I was in the first and second year at senior school. I thought the cane was worse across my hands and I did feel that if ever given a choice (unlikely!) I would opt to receive the cane across my bottom.

I was never given that choice! I did receive the cane twice more at school, and on both these occasions I was caned across my skirt. Much harder (and more strokes) than before as I was older. My skirt didn't give as much "protection" as I hoped for and the canings were painful, but I guess that was the point! At least my hands were spared the stinging.

I also agree with your views on equality: girls if misbehaving should receive the same consequences as boys. And also having received the cane I would have opted for it as oppose to a long detentions or 500 lines.

Times have changed now and despite calls for the re-introduction of corporal punishment I think it would be a step backwards. I don't think did me any permanent harm though.

Julie






 
 
Caroline

A choice- hand or bottom

September 17 2011, 11:44 AM 

Hi Jenny,

I absolutely agree with virtually everything you say. I received the cane the first time across my hands, and the next time across my bottom. I felt it on both occassions; That was when I was in the first and second year at senior school. I thought the cane was worse across my hands and I did feel that if ever given a choice (unlikely!) I would opt to receive the cane across my bottom.

I was never given that choice! I did receive the cane twice more at school, and on both these occasions I was caned across my skirt. Much harder (and more strokes) than before as I was older. My skirt didn't give as much "protection" as I hoped for and the canings were painful, but I guess that was the point! At least my hands were spared the stinging.

I also agree with your views on equality: girls if misbehaving should receive the same consequences as boys. And also having received the cane I would have opted for it as oppose to a long detentions or 500 lines.

Times have changed now and despite calls for the re-introduction of corporal punishment I think it would be a step backwards. I don't think did me any permanent harm though.

Caroline





 
 

Another_Lurker

Seeing double?

September 17 2011, 8:11 PM 

I cannot dissent from most of the opinions expressed above by Julie and Caroline, as I have never been caned, and certainly not in a skirt! I therefore lack the comparative experience. I am in general agreement with each of their final two paragraphs, and indeed they are expressing support for one of my very esteemed fellow contributors for whose views I have the greatest regard.

But is it just me, or are the two contributions really identical? happy.gif

 
 
Alan Turing

Conjecture

September 17 2011, 9:04 PM 

The two posts by Julie and Caroline were submitted this morning, nine minutes apart. They did not appear until this evening, as they needed to be "moderated". My conjecture is that the poster, noticing that the first post hadn't appeared, submitted it again but chose a different pseudonym in case the first choice had been the cause of the problem.

I hope that the poster will return to this Forum, and will understand the cause of the delay.

 
 
Another_Lurker

Re: Conjecture

September 17 2011, 10:46 PM 

Good thinking Mr Turing. Whilst the moderation delay is very familiar I am ashamed to say that I had not considered a new contributor thinking that their chosen pseudonym might already be in use. We of course know that the pseudonym is not significant in this context, but clearly a new contributor cannot know that. I too hope that the poster will return.

 
 
Worldwide Traveller

The truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

September 17 2011, 11:19 PM 

Maybe HE should just use HIS real name.

 
 
Jenny

A choice- hand or bottom

September 17 2011, 11:55 PM 

Hi Julie/Caroline

First, welcome to the forum. I'm guessing you are one and the same. If, as my esteemed fellow contributor Another_Lurker and I both hope, you post again, it would be best to use just one pseudonym. Also, if you create an account, the moderators may allow your posts to skip the moderation queue and appear immediately.

I received the cane the first time across my hands, and the next time across my bottom.

That's how I got it - first time on my hand and subsequent times on my bum. After that first time, I kept out of serious trouble (at least I wasn't caught wink.gif )for a bit longer than you managed to. I wasn't caned again until towards the end of my third year.

... I was caned across my skirt. Much harder (and more strokes) than before as I was older.

In theory, we were caned across our skirts too. In practice, many of us wore skirts considerably shorter than the approved length (hem no more than 5cm above the knee) which didn't provide much coverage when we bent over. I don't think my HM caned older students harder just because they were older. There was some correlation between age and antecedence so we tended to get more severe canings as we got older because of our records.

And also having received the cane I would have opted for it as oppose to a long detentions or 500 lines.

As I've said before, caning a boy and giving a girl some other punishment is clearly unfair but it's not clear which it's unfair to. Such a discriminatory system might ostensibly benefit girls but, in reality, it usually does the opposite.

We just got the slipper if we failed to do lines or detention so, on the few occasions I got either, I just didn't bother to do them.

Times have changed now and despite calls for the re-introduction of corporal punishment I think it would be a step backwards.

I'm fairly ambivalent about that. Reasonable CP can be quickly effective but, in the past, it was often just a euphemism for abuse - particularly in sexist schools where girls were exempt from CP no matter how badly behaved they were. In such schools, it clearly wasn't thought necessary as a means of discipline so subjecting boys to it was nothing more than gratuitous violence.


 
 

Another_Lurker

Re: A Choice - Hand or Bottom?

September 18 2011, 1:03 AM 

Hi Jenny,

I have always suspected that you have powers of perception beyond the normal, and now I have absolute proof! You are correct, I do indeed have a post in the pipeline echoing Alan Turing's hope that Julie/Caroline will post again, as my initial comment might have been a little intimidating. However, I carelessly despatched it when I wasn't logged in, so it won't appear until morning (my apologies to the Moderators for the extra work). How on earth did you know though?

Seriously, I think you have perhaps accidentally deprived Alan of the credit for urging further posts and accorded it to me. I'm sure he won't mind on this occasion, but do please remember that in addition to now being official Forum Peace Keeper, he is still Forum Prefect and Keeper of the Key to the slipper cupboard! wink.gif

 
 
Alan Turing

BOD

September 18 2011, 8:09 AM 

This is, I believe, a code used by examiners in mathematics when a student's work is ambiguous but could be correct. "Benefit of the doubt".

I think this is an occasion when BOD would be appropriate. wink.gif

 
 
prof.n

Re: A Choice - Hand or Bottom?

September 18 2011, 11:25 AM 


Jenny says ;

Reasonable CP can be quickly effective but, in the past, it was often just a euphemism for abuse - particularly in sexist schools where girls were exempt from CP no matter how badly behaved they were. In such schools, it clearly wasn't thought necessary as a means of discipline so subjecting boys to it was nothing more than gratuitous violence.

There are a couple of serious points here. Reflecting on the last point first , one of the reasons for sex/gender discrimination may well have been exactly Jenny's last point. If we look back at the arguments in the 1880's/90's brought to us by KK and american Way , we see that the punishment of girls was far more emotive that that of boys- those who did engage in gratuitousness violence tended to get pulled up sharp if a young lady was involved, whereas they could ply their trade without concern on the male of the species. This isn't really a reflection of concern for the child , but far more a reinforcement of the patriarchal ideology of society , which was at its most rampant in the developed industrial nations in the late 19th century.

More important however is her reservation about 'gratuitous' violence. I see this a providing a major , if not insuperable barrier to the satisfactory use of such punishment. Unless and until we can weed out abusers from the ranks of teachers , there will always bee bad apples, and as I think, many of the recent cases in US schools have shown, bad apples stick together ( ie even with witnesses abuse can occur if the witness is under the control /frightened of the perpetrator. Hence issues such as restraining students against their will, contradictory assessment by M.E's and teachers as to what occurred and disagreements between the student and the teacher.In such a situation sheild laws militate against justice and proper conduct.

and finally a less serious comment :

happy.gif Mind you there is one place on the planet where this never happens , Melbourne,of course, where hundreds of students are caned annually without a single complaint ever being raised outside the school happy.gifhappy.gifhappy.gif All is right with the world here , in the best of all possible worlds? happy.gif


 
 
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