I don’t know how many of you here have views on the part played by supporters of some religious followings, or church funded schools who support or supported CP

To me this is not spanking it is abuse,

http://www.pillarandground.org/spanking.html

Instructing parents to hit with a stick, to leave welts, bruises, to hit for every transgression no matter how small, to repeat spanking as long as the child continues screaming or making defensive movements. To hit a child with an implement as soon as they begin to crawl.

If anyone here watched the Hand of God, documentary channel 5 couple of weeks back. I have only just viewed it. A mother taps her baby with a switch to punish for crawling too near a heated stove. Another year it will be more than a tap the child will really feel the sting, Surely the obvious would be a fire guard to protect the child. A young boy receives four whacks with a belt for a small lie, and good old Mr Carpenter and daughter churning out in his workshop, 1000’s of straight edged paddles, the shape and size of a child’s cricket bat, a give away by post or at the road side, it’s alright though he stamps them with “Done out of Love” and “Never in Temper” I wonder if the child feels like that when it meets with their backside.

It not just in the US but fractions of parents in the UK believe in this religious garbage. I remember speaking to someone a couple of years ago who had seen similar literature passed round London.

How many here attended school where nuns, brothers, strapped hard in the name of God, where they not the ones, who instilled fear the most.

I attended a church funded school, the majority of pupils were vicars, laymen and missionaries daughters. My parents were NOT committed Christians,(as I was so often reminded), and were probably sold on the glossy brochure and a certain headmasters recommendation, I belonged to the small non conforming clique, who survived the daily brainwashing of religion . Yes we had CP, and in defence I have to say it wasn’t used over excessively, but nether less it was the deeply religious teachers that found there way to delivering with vengeance and enthusiasm , and how many hours were spent in detention writing up from the good book for trivial misdemeanours . How many of those girls now have messed up relationships and lives, a good few.

Only within the last two years church schools in the UK were found wanting to uphold the use of CP in their schools seeking permission of the courts to return the use of the strap and cane, for boys and girls in their care. Luckily case dismissed.

How many sexual, physical, abuses, covered up by the church over the years ?

No disrespect to those here that hold religious beliefs. But I feel Religion should not then, or now, be allowed to influence how parents teachers discipline their children


K

Ketta, you write that cp was not
Used “over excessively”,
But previously you wrote that
You received three strokes of the cane
On your knickers for
“Polishing off a bottle of cider”,
With two other girls.
That, to me, is excessive punishment,
Even by the standards of the 1960s.
Do you not agree?

KETTA

Our forum is full of excesses in the name of God, not just Mike's Aussie nuns and their feather dusters, either.

There is also a growing consensus here that women are by some distance the more fearsome spankers.

You've just proved God is a woman,mate!


Steve M

Ketta, when you look at all the religions in the world-and it is easy to see how the good book you refer to is misquoted.

There are a lot of different Christian religions in the US-all have a different slant on the bible.

The bible is not the only book however, take a look at the people who follow the Koran. It seems that the book is open to a lot of interpretation by its readers.

When we look at the affect some religions have on people we only need to think about James Town. This is just one example of religious fanatisism gone to the extreem in the western world.

Closer to home, there was a group in Western Australia some years back who were under investigation because of accusations of child abuse. A raid was carried out by police and children were removed by authorities after it was leaked to the press that the cult was indulging in sexual practices with children.

So after reading about the above it is not surprising that there are Morons about who do abuse children in a twisted sense of all in the name of religion.

I have written about my experiences here on the forum and I have friends from different backgrounds and religions who have told me stories of Sunday School incidents when they attended there in the late fifties and sixties.

Being Catholic I was intrigued with the concept of Sunday School as it wasn't a part of my religion. We all went to Mass-there was no segregation of adults from children. I had been told by a friend when I was younger that the teachers had used CP at Sunday School but I felt these were just stories made up by young boys at the time to scare their mates.

I was having a night out with one of my friends and he mentioned his days at Sunday School and I told him I remembered him spinning me stories about it. He said they were not made up stories. He went on to talk about a woman we both knew who taught Sunday School and the bible bashing they received from her. She eventually turned the class over to her daughter who was just as bad. The daughter used to test the kids each week and look out any boy or girl who didn't remember the previous weeks lesson.

Suffice to say, my friend no longer goes to church. And funnily enough, nor do I. I believe there are better Christians who don't go to church than those that do.

i saw the tv show about the fundie homeschoolers. they were certainly wierd no TV, no harry potter, even grown up children not allowed to date without a chaperone although there were some good things too like making even the small kids take their turn doing chores in the house... but i didn't think the c.p aspect was that bad...the young man got a pretty light spanking with a small belt, and he was grinning before and afterwards, and the english fammily seemed to be only talking about "smacks" with the hand. i don't agree with that kind of punishment, but i don't think that it was sadistic or abusive. the man who made paddles was obviously a nutter. more likely he was sexually into spanking (but like, there's nothing wrong with that) but couldn't admit it to himself

I agree with all the above views and have always felt religion to be the main cause of friction in the world. In recent years, the US has been getting more and more religious, which I fear will lead to even worse atrocities in the name of Faith. Both Blair and Bush are dedicated Christians, in war with another group of religous maniacs, putting us all in far more danger than ever before.
Religion itself was the idea of leaders long ago to make people behave when there were no police or enforcible laws to make them do so. It was, and still is, a way of having power over others. It's a shame but I can see no way of halting the inevitable crusades of the so-called 'Saintly'.

Les:

I think you live in another place and time, or you are relatively young.
I can assure you that in my day, three strokes of the cane on a young lady's backside for drinking cider was not a strong punishment!
Ketta, as the recipient, may have other views, and I respect them. However, my own experience, and those of people of a similar age, i.e. those who were school in the late 50s/early 60s, is that CP was administered even for minor infringements of school rules.
I recognise that it is difficult for those who have not seen or suffered CP in school to understand just how commonplace it was, particularly in inner city schools, during (and before) those years.
I knew boys and girls who went to 'religious schools' during those times, and they suffered more than most - in the name of religion.

Les, / Falling Star

Whether something seems excessive to you will vary by your comparison, depending on the policy your particular school had to CP, the teachers that may have administered it, the era you attended.

Les, the punishment you recalled so well, 3 strokes in the religious hands could do as much damage as 6, add the two weeks gated, my parents notified, it was a high price to pay by today’s thinking, but in terms of what you could expect from some teachers those days, it wasn’t classed excessive, nor did my parents think so. You were just made an example of.

My comparison was the state school I attended beforehand, and other people’s recollections from catholic schools.

If you refer thread South London Revisited, research assistant's, posting Chelsea Central, my previous school. Two of the people mentioned were from my tutor group, including the girl who got 6 on the hands for chewing gum, excessive? Some would say yes, other not, Boys that visited the head got away with nothing less than ‘6 of the best’ most for a couple of puffs on a cigarette the number one crime.

Same offence at that school, would still have resulted in a painful experience that taught the valuable lesson, DON’T get caught.

K

There used to be a joke circulating about the cars Nuns drove. You can always tell which car belongs to a Nun by the bumper sticker which reads; Belt a kid a day!

Most of the posts I have read about Catholic schools share a familiar theme-the excessive amount of CP meted out. Why? Is it just a Catholic thing? and to be fair to the Nuns, were Lay teachers just as willing to use CP or were they more hesitant?

Catholic schools appear to have a long history using CP in the name of the faith.

Did other denominations such as C of E, Methodist, Baptist etc follow the same principles? Did the Catholicschools attract teachers with a penchant for using the rod, strap or feather duster?

Ketta raised a valid point as to time frames which I agree with, as CP was widely used and accepted in most parts of the 20th century, at least in the schools I attended.

In another post relating to male and female teachers, it is interesting to read posts from members, particularly those who have attended Catholic schools. Overwhelming evidence from these posts point to Nuns as being the main culprits when it came to the use of CP. This being the case, we have to ask why was this so?

Was it that they were frustrated old biddies who lacked companionship of a man, or was it sadism using the excuse of "In the name of the Faith?" or was it because they just didn't like the opposite gender?

We have read the views of people attending State and Catholic schools but there hasn't been much input from members who attended other religious schools. Would this be because these schools had a different approach as to sparing the rod? Some information on this subject would be appreciated for comparrison purposes.

Note. I apologise should this post be repeated. I am having trouble posting. It may be the time difference between countries causing the problem.

Deuteronomy 21:18-21
(King James Version) If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.

(New English Bible) When a man has a son who is disobedient and out of control, and will not obey his father or his mother, or pay attention when they punish him, then his father and mother shall take hold of him and bring him out to the elders of the town, at the town gate. They shall say to the elders of the town, `This son of ours is disobedient and out of control; he will not obey us, he is a wastrel and a drunkard.` Then all the men of the town shall stone him to death, and you will thereby rid yourselves of this wickedness. All Israel will hear of it and be afraid.

++++++++++++

What about disobedient daughters? And why should a boy who refuses to keep his room tidy be discribed as a drunkard?

Good News Bible:

Have faith in Gard, or you’ll get what’s a-comin’ to ya!

MIKE

I only know from anecdotal evidence, but throughout my life, from men & women, I've heard plenty about the Catholic church's approach to spare the rod etc.

Never heard a good word about this attitude, and nuns were most feared of all. The common consensus was, though they aren't unique in it, they had a great capacity for finding the most painful parts to smack(behind the knees and just under the buttock cleft) and laying it on thereon in style.

I never heard of any M/F spankings etc at all, but F/M was another matter. From the scattered memories,I'd say M/M's were worse & F/F possibly worst of all, as these were often the work of Mother Superior and in the privacy of her office-talk about, In space nobody can hear you scream!


Steve M

Steve, I feel your assumption about Nuns being feared is 100% correct. As a child it was a daunting experience coming into contact with a Nun at the best of times, especially if it had anything to do with school.

A lot of people are under the misapprehension that Nuns are charming, caring women of the cloth. There may be some truth to it nowadays but during my formative years at school, the Nuns had anything but a charming disposition.

My brother was victimised so badly by Nuns physically that my father stepped in and threatened the Nuns with similar voilence they imparted on my brother.

Today, Child welfare services would step in and prosocute an offender for abusive treatement of a child. My brother was repeatedly punched in the back and shoulders by one particular Nun who wore a thick gold ring the size of a knuckle duster and put it to maximum use on my brother.

As I am six years younger, the sister in question had been removed from the school when I started there. However, my father's visit still lingured in the minds of some still there although some didn't take the hint. I still got my fair share. In one class I had a perminent space on the floor out front in the classroom. I think the idea of private parking spaces in companies originated for me and my floor space.

I don't feel the Nuns of today look as threating or as intimidating as those who were in charge of me back when, but I still get a cold shiver down my spine when I pass one.

I also feel that the Nuns thought they were fireproof to an extent, hiding behind their Habits and religion. And it wasn't just the older Nuns who were barbaric, some of the younger ones caught on very quickly to the advantages of intimidation and use of CP.

It seems that the Irish Nuns and Australian Nuns have a lot in common in relation to this issue as there are so many reports and stories on this forum and the internet in general. So many in fact, it just can't be a coincidence or a rumour.


Reading Ketta's last post convinces me that LSD was around long before the sixties! Who ever wrote the quote must have been on something.

MIKE

Meet sister Excruciate, from the order of Holy Agony.
Look familiar, the dominant figure.


Not much at this stage to choose from between your nuns and my Cof E fanatics.

Yours wore a habit, threatened with the belt
Mine tweed outfits, waving large rulers or canes.

Neither had much patients with children,

Both believed God to be, ‘he who should be obeyed’, practised psychological brainwashing, scriptures morning noon and night .

You had your floor space, mine a solitary desk.

Your nuns unfortunately, had a long history of self flagellation, Penance, celibacy, an allegiance to obey some of the most contentious rules, headed by the catholic church.

Is it any wonder your nuns turned out to be the more barbaric and sadistic.

God may have created man before woman, but there is always a rough draft before the masterpiece of terror ‘THE NUN’

Mike, if your believe in hell fire or revenge, on 29th September 1841 a fire broke out Kimmel hall, my school as it was known then, reduced to ashes, and not insured, a hundred years on, coincidence? the same date and month, September 29th 1975 another fire, the school was gutted again reduced to ashes. (I wasn’t the arsonist )

But like the resurrection, years later the school rose from the ashes and joined Monkton Coomb in England. Its web sight portrays , Boys and girls united, a good academic record, no CP, but I found this rather worrying quote

“We found a welcoming, friendly community, in good heart and centred on faith in Jesus, with which to form a partnership for the next stage of our daughter's education. In her letters she started to ask for prayer in the most natural way - for essays, tiredness, etc. - and to mention spiritual things which she had not done before. She is finding a faith which is hers and not ours."

Still brainwashing.

K

From what I heard from various pals about their experiences at Catholic schools I thank the almighty that I went to a "normal" school.
Can there be anything more frightening for a youngster than a nun in that ridiculously evil looking habit.
The Catholic church had enormous powers, particularly amongst the Irish communities in London. Life revolved around school and the church. Yet in Eire which is nearly all Catholic corporal punishment was not nearly so prevelant. Then again I am led to believe that children were better behaved. They certainly are now anyway compared to Britain.
I am led to believe that C of E church schools were nearly as bad as Catholic ones. I think it comes down to the Bible and suffer little children etc.

KETTA

Just a thought, but I wonder if Moslem girls in Moslem countries get to keep it on when being chastised?

The veil, I mean!

I just wonder if the sisters who give penguins a bad press are as bad as the bloody mullahs & co.


Steve M

Loved the drawing Ketta, spot on!

Mimi, I am sorry I can't help out with any information about C of E schools as I only had one friend attend a Private C of E school which I wrote about in my last post.

I agree whole heartedly the image of Nuns frightening the living daylights out of young children. However, believe it or not there were a couple of nice Nuns at my school, unfortunately I didn't have them.

I used to often walk with an older sister on my way home. I had actually been in her class a few times. This occured when our sister became ill and the class was broken up into small groups and sent to other classrooms.

This particular sister was quite different to most. Her class, fifth grade was an all girl class. I was in 4th year at the time and we loved going into her classroom because we did practically nothing all day. It was also nice to see girls getting into trouble instead of us boys for a change.

I remember if the girls talked in class they were in for it but if we did she turned a deaf ear most times or occasionally asked us to quiet down. I just wish the rest of the sisters had been like her instead of the old bats they were.

M.

http://www.monktoncombeschool.com/

The above link will take you to the website of Monkton Combe School, which, in 1992, amalgamated with the now infamous Clarendon Fladge Academy, where boarded Special K.

Would you let your offspring, or your servant’s offspring, attend an educational establishment such as this where sixth-form girls are required to wear bright yellow hats and younger children are subjected to the wall-bars torture?

FRIDAY, MAY 25, 2007

Shop for clothes at the Christian Domestic Discipline Store

"Loving wife spanking in a Christian Marriage," is the motto at the Christian Domestic Discipline Store. Choose from a variety of reasonably-priced crotchless pantaloons.

You can also purchase a book about Christian Domestic Discipline. Excerpt:

Biblically, a man’s right to chastise and discipline his wife is strongly implied. Just as a parent would never stop to ask permission to chastise his child, a husband should not have to obtain consent to discipline his wife; however, our legal system has put him in the position of having to do so. Just as our culture is turned upside down in so many other things, the traditional Christian marriage is no exception.

It is worth mentioning that even Biblically, it is best if the wife submits willingly rather than being forced to obey her husband, and in giving honor to his wife as the weaker vessel, it is good that the husband listen to her thoughts and opinions and try to incorporate them into their lives so that she will be content. In that sense, this discussion of CDD and all it entails is Biblically sound.



Which chapter and verse in the Bible says

“thou shalt spank thy wife in crotchless pantaloons”

K

Which chapter and verse in the Bible says

“thou shalt spank thy wife in crotchless pantaloons”

K



It is from St. Flagellant’s Epistle to the Disciplinarians, Ch.4, v.28.

He wrote:

"For verily I say unto all people in the land of Canem, when spanking your wife, allow her to wear knickers to protect her modesty. And lest she be slow to orgasm during the spanking, get her some of those crotchless pantaloons, and give her a bit of finger and spank her at the same time. Thus, thou shalt have a wife content and disciplined who will dwell in the House of the Lord forever. Amen."

I could take the original passage more seriously if there weren't spellling errors in it. 'Brake' a child's will? I think not - break a child's will? Yes
Oh, and please don't give me the old stuff about it being a difference in spelling between English English and American English - it doesn't wash.
It's a spelling error from people who should know different. Perhaps it is they who should be punished with 'the rod'...