Why is that the taxpayers of this country are now going to pay for Prince William to be taught to fly helicopters for the RAF after the ridiculous business of Prince Harry not being allowed to go into action in Iraq? Why doesn't his multi-millionaire father pay for his son to have flying lessons the same as everyone else has to do!

Without Prejudice.

Hello Danny, when I was in the services, Army (during Vietnam) and the RAAF (after I left the Army) each service had a saying.

The Army's was: Be in B Company. B here when they go, and B here when they get back.

The Airforce used to be called the PM's Koala Bears: Not to be sent out of the country, and not to be shot at.

I offer the above as an answer to your post.

Mike.

Sorry Danny, I made a type-o in my message. I had revised what I wrote and I noticed I had failed to delete some letters from a corrected sentence. I sould have written Army instead of Army's-the y's being from a previous word.

Having corrected that, I also wanted to say perhaps it is the leaders which made the decision not to send Harry to Iraq.

Kings and Princes throught history led their Armies into battle. Today, the Kings are figure heads. The decision to send troops to other regions is largely the responsibility of of our illustrious PM's and their cronies.

The one thing I have noticed is that the Politicians are good at sending off other people's children off to fight battles in other lands but they never seem to send their own kids off. Why is that do you think?

In fairness to the Royals, at least the have the fortitude of their convictions to join the services, be it a PR exercise or whatever.

We (and I mean we do this in both countries) spend tax payers money on training people from all walks of life to fly aircraft in our services.


I am playing devil's advocate here Danny. I actually feel the same way as you. He should foot the bill himself, god knows he can afford it!

It all comes down to what policy dictates. But what's to say Policy is right?

Mike

I agree with you that Harry wanted to get in on the fighting but it was obvious from the start that he couldn't do so. Being 3nd in line to the throne meant he would be a target and a danger to himself and to his men. It's very expensive training officers and that training place should have gone to someone who could be used.
Now, knowing that, we are going to spend hundreds of thousands training the 2nd in line! If his brother couldnt get into action, how is he going to be able to go? It seems he (like his father) is going to lead a life of luxury, at the nation's expence, having every whim fulfilled.
We need a Head of State and have to pay for it but why do we have to fork out for a whole bunch of hangers on? Our 'wonderful' "Whoa Blair" (remember him?) had a missus who worked and we didn't pay for dozens of his relatives, so why should we for HRH?
To get back to Wills, he's a fine kid but let's say now that if he can never go into action with the Armed Forces, don't indulge some whim of his to be Action Man at my (if not yours, Mike) expence!

I also was struck by the thought that if this so called Soldier wants to play with real machines why not go to Africa and help by driving a Coal Cutter down a deep mine shaft.
I think that at his age we all would love to Drive Tanks-Fly planes-Steer boats etc.But I bet he wont be involved in cleaning them afterwards.
And of course the press will be invited to snap Pics of this Fast-Track learner flying a plane, but is it not the same chap who objected to being Snapped Pissed with his girlfrind recently.
As the others say, the money could be better spent.

That's a good idea, Monty, but it doesn't have the glamour, does it!

I can imagine what happens when some ordinary guy applies to the RAF or Royal Navy to fly a helicopter - he'll go through a hundred tests to see if he's fit enough, intelligent enough, sensible eough to fly one and then whether there is any reason why he wouldn't be able to be used in action when he's fully trained. The machines and the training staff are limited and very expensive so these facilities cannot be wasted.

What happens at Clarence House, I can imagine that too ... " ...errrr ... er what ... er would you ... errr like to ... errrr do in the next couple of years, William?" "Fly helicopters, Dad!" "Oh yes, great fun, Wills! I'll see to it"

Why does the government tell us we all have to pay an average of £1200 more in tax next year because of the downturn in the nation's economy, while at the same time annoucing these bloody foolish Royal fads!

I lurk here. Don't think I've ever posted before, but you've brought me out of the woodwork with this one. I can't really do otherwise.

I hold the Queen's Commission with 22 years regular service with the Royal Australian Navy. I've been retired for a while now, but am still a reservist. I know the Prince of Wales slightly, and have met Princes William and Harry, and, have served alongside the Duke of York, who I count as a friend, when I was on exchange with the Royal Navy.

(And, yes, I'm into corporal punishment, which is why I lurk here. Not really important when it comes to this post but something I'll acknowledge upfront).

All of this gives me a particular perspective on this point.

I am very much in favour of Prince William being allowed to train in this way - and for that matter, also of Prince Harry being allowed to do so. For a number of reasons.

The first is that both William and Harry may well be able to have a genuine military career if they choose to. The Prince of Wales military career was, admittedly, fairly short - although it did contain real work of real value. But the Duke of York had a long and quite distinguished military career. The media has had a tendency to focus on his brief period as a helicopter pilot in the Falklands War, but that was actually one brief period in a 23 year, very real, Naval career.

A member of the royal family can have a genuine military career if they really want to - and I'd say, it's one of the few real careers they can have. Particularly for a senior royal.

Harry, especially, really does have the possibility of a proper career ahead of him. William's path isn't quite as clear.

Harry wanted to go to Iraq. It was decided that the risks for other soldiers, associated with his deployment, were too high, but he wanted to go and he wanted to do his duty. I suspect William would like to have the same chance, but he is probably realistic enough to understand it's extremely unlikely to happen.

But even if a serviceman doesn't go to war, that doesn't mean they can't still have a useful career. I served for over twenty years - and less than three months of that was active service. It doesn't mean I was sitting around doing nothing for the rest of my career. While war service is the primary reason a military exists, it's not all we do. Only a minority of those in the armed forces are ever likely to see combat. There's plenty of real jobs where that never happens. So even if Harry and William are barred from a combat role, they can still have a realistic career of real value if that is what they want to do.

Miltary training and experience - particularly the type of training and experience gained by commissioned officers and senior non commissioned officers - also has a great deal of educational value. A lot of the skills you develop in the services are transferrable to a lot of positions in civilian life. Administrative training, personnel management, planning, the ability to think on your feet. There's a lot there.

I can also say that I am certain that both William and Harry had to earn their way into officer training at Sandhurst, and they had to earn their way through that training. They passed the same tests to get into Sandhurst as the other officer cadets, and they passed the same tests while they were there. There are ways a royal could be giving a military career they hadn't earned, and that could certainly happen if they insisted on it. But this isn't the way you'd do that.

Take a look at the Earl of Wessex - Prince Edward - to see the reality. To be fair to him, he did serve - he earned his commission as a Second Lieutenant in the Royal Marines. But when he tried to go further, and gain his green beret, he couldn't. That's not a major failure - it's very hard to get. But it does illustrate they don't just hand these things out.

A final factor - William will, one day, unless somethings happens to stop that, be Commander-In-Chief of the Armed Forces of a number of realms. Harry will acquire numerous honorary-Colonelcies and similar positions. They will - William especially - be in a position of command over real fighting men and women, even if they have never served in combat themselves.

Knowing and understanding what those people do can only make them better at that job.

As I said earlier, the Prince of Wales, only had a relatively short military career. He's now a General, an Admiral, and an Air Chief Marshal. Those ranks are ceremonial, and he would have them whether he'd served or not, but I'd rather see them in the hands of somebody with five years real service, than with no service at all.

Whether you agree with the institution of royalty or not - and, personally, I don't, though I respect the ones I know as people - we have a royal family. I'd rather they did something with their lives, rather than just sit back in the lap of luxury. They do cost British taxpayers quite a lot of money - so much that the extra amount spent on William and Harry for military training is pretty insignificant. If it makes them better men, if it teaches them anything, that makes them more able to do the job they've been born to do - and were never asked if they wanted, I'm in favour of it.

If we have to have a King, I'd rather have one that has had a real job - and a military career is a real job - than one who never has.

This militartistic stuff is rather out of fashion nowadays.
Youve got to remember that both the mentioned are products of the English Public School system under Dr.Anderson at Eton etc.(who also tutored Blair and Charles).
That ought to say it all really.
"Outsiders""Critics"dont have a chance of cracking,penetrating or influencing this system.
They have their own "Officers' Training Corps"and "Combined Cadet Forces"where the youngsters are "brainwashed"into the Kill for King and Country philosophy.
Tall Large walls surround these places,the dormitories carry black boot polish and cap badges and belt buckles are polished twice daily.Attendence at Chapel is compulsory.Outside influences are excluded.Television is strictly controlled.Females for the most part are absent.Certain teachers called "Masters"instill their own private agendas-this could be inclucating a vicarious hatred of the lower classes,certain religious groups or political systems.All this goes on for 8 long years unchallenged by the press,the public or anyone.
You will not change this once its been absorbed.
Standing to attention in bitter cold for hours on end is common.Conquering fear at great heights a mere detail of training.And on the rifle range the mile far targets are all yellow skinned with slitty mongol eyes.The Paratroop Range instructors yell "6 rounds rapid fire!!!" and the slitty eyed invaders on the horizon are despatched like ducks in a shooting gallery.The swagger stick carrying sergeants fresh from massacres in Ireland or Vietnam or Iraq take great delight in exhorting their charges to "put the rounds through the heart"as its more fatal than the head or limbs.Then how about a 12 mile mountain hike with flags singing and hymns round a bonfire far away from the corrupt inner city?You are right Fettes was founded by the founder of the Hitler Jugend.
And yes THAT Nazi uniform is only the tip of a very big iceburg.

I agree that The Duke of York did some really good work in the Falklands campaign but William certainly won't get that chance - for the reasons I've aready given.
As for the argument that the future king should have some idea of what others go through, I doubt that it matters in this day and age. The Queen can never make any decisions one way or the other as regards whether or not we send our troops to war, nor will Charles, nor will William. Whether he or Harry has any experience in that field matters not one iota.
What I mainly object to is that we need good pilots who can, if necessary, go to war and it is a ridiculous waste of time and money to train - with all the expence that such a training schedule entails - someone who never can fight in armed combat!
You, knowing a few of them personally will be, I think, a little biassed. If you look on it logically we need those training facilities for those who can do any job asked of them.

Danny, I agree with what you said in your reply to me and I also respect the writings of Naturalman and Bozo, both have contributed some valid points to the topic.

While most us us are united about the topic, something occured to me about the issue being discussed which has not yet been explored.

We all agree that it is impractical for a member of the Royal to be involved in combat for many reasons but we may not have considered William's training outcome and options.

One thing the services need are troops, the other is instructors. Therefore, I feel William may be able to contribute in other ways than being placed in combat. Perhaps William's forte may lye in instructing. Pilots need to be taught to fly and William may make a good instructor in this area.

If William learned how to fly and took this one step further by becoming an instructor, I wouldn't view it as a waste of taxpayer's money as he is putting his skills to work and passing them on. I have been in situations in my military career where my instructors were not combat veterans. Many aren't. There are a few reasons for this, serving in peace time being one which springs to mind.

Bozo, your reference to the rifle range made me smile. When I was in the army, the Viet Cong were referred to as little yellow men in black pyjamas.


Danny, would you perhaps feel it less of a waste of taxpayer's funds if William took on the role of an instructor if he was to further his career? I feel I would. I should mention if I haven't already that I am not a fan of Royalty, although I respect it. I feel that William and Harry have a sense of Patrotism and its good to see that they are doing what they believe in by joining the Armed Forces. It is, as Naturalman pointed out impractical to have a royal serve in a combat zone but it doesn't stop them from doing valuable work elsewhere as I'm sure you would agree.

Mike.

Mike

I agree to a certain extent that Wills could be useful if he turned out to be a good instructor - they say those who can DO, those who can't TEACH. But, and it's a big but, why should he? An instructor should be picked for that job because of his special skills not because he's Royalty!
In the recent past Royalty were made admirals and generals etc purely for the ceremonials. They were bought a smart gold-braided suit and took the salute at march-pasts. They didn't do anything else because they had never had to do anything in their lives before and therefore were practically inadequate. William was given a valet by Prince Charles at a ridiculous age - something like 14 or 15! He was photographed once cleaning a toilet somewhere abroad and you could see he hardly knew what to do with the scrubbing brush in his hand! Why should any budding fighter or helecopter pilot take instructions from someone who has never done anything in his life before? They would probably be sitting there scared stiff of asking questions of someone so high up anyway!
But that's not my main reason for saying what I do. He just shouldn't be given such training purely because he's a Royal! The job of a pilot or of an instructor is so valuable that it must be given to only those who are the very best - not for any other reason! Anyone can stand on a podium and take a salute - the old Queen Mother did it now and again! That is all they should be doing unless they can somehow be properly assessed as good material. That sounds okay but can you imagine anyone failing him in a test?
Prince Edward wasn't rejected by the Marines, he quit because it was too hard. If he had wanted to carry on he could have, no one would have dared throw him out as they would have done with any other recruit. Looking at him and knowing what he's like can you see any ordinary guy like that being even considered?
No, Royalty are given these perks and play at being supermen but they are of no practical use and should not be allowed to waste valuable facilities like training plces which have to go to only the very best.

I am in favour of our system of having a Head of State who has no real clout but is above those who do have the power. It's a good system and I wouldn't want any other but keep them in their place and don't spend millions on the lesser Royals as we do now. Tha's all I ask, Mike.

Danny, I'd love to discuss things with you over a pint or 6, but seeing as I live 12,000 miles away it would be a bit hard. Once again you have made a good point about those who haven't done teaching others. I have some actual imput which I'd like to put forward on this. I do still agree with most of what you say and I understand your perspective on the matter. My intent is to offer more possibilities to the situation.

I used to deal with company Reps who visited my workplace on a regular basis. I got to know a few of them on a more personal level and became frieds with few of them. One of the Reps told me he was leaving his company and was taking up a position with a Workplace Training Organization. I kept in contact with him after he left and he told me of a story which I feel is relavent to our discussion.

This guy was originally an apprentice in my line of work-Hospitality, and he actaully negotiated with me about training some of my staff. As a firm believer in ongoing training and advanced skills, and given that he experience in the field, he suggested a relavent training course for the staff.

He would visit once a week for training and assessment of staff. I asked if he had other duties and he told me that his superior had him conduct a training course in Forklift driving. He argued that he wasn't a qualified forklift driver but his boss told him that he was a 'Qualified Assessment and Workplace Trainer' and it was his job to deliver course material.

In another situation, I distinctly remember a particular episode when I went to night school for 4 years undertaking a new course in management in my field. I was on the first intake of 20 people to study for the new certificate. As it was a new certificate course none of the teachers had the qualifications themselves but they taught subjects anyway.

By the time I graduated, I had higher qualifications than the lecturers who taught me. I don't know if this had a lot to do with the fact that out of 20 starting, only 2 finished and graduated. One reason may have been the dissatisfaction of unqualified staff teaching the course as had been suggested to me at the time.

Danny, I think you may find this is not a rare occurance in anything related to training or education, purely because everything has to start somewhere and training courses, as an example, are written by people who do not have the qualifications for what they are developing in the first instance, ie, my management course.

I did learn that similar qualifications did exist in countries like Switzerland and we were slowly coming up to par with European countries.

I hope this information will be of interest to you and I enjoy our discussions.

Mike.

Hi again Mike!

As you well know, I often get myself in a tizzy over things which don't matter a damn in reality - it's a case of age and high blood pressure, I'm afraid.
As someone else said, in the scale of things and how much we spend on the Royals, giving Wills his own pet helicopter and sending the bill to us UK taxpayers is small fish. But that isn't really my point here.

The defence of our nation - as well a half-a-dozen other nations that Blair decided we should defend - is a complicated business. We have a very limited supply of RAF and Navy helicopters, which incidently cost ten times as much as the sort you or I might consider buying, and they should be piloted by the very few specially picked men who'll use them properly and to their best and most useful advantage.
To suddenly announce that Prince William is to be trained as such a specialised pilot is an insult to all those who have fought to be picked for that job. Can you imagine the selection Board when his name came up? Do you imagine the same criteria was applied to him as to the others? Of course not!
The Royals have been inbred for centuries - granted his mother was just outside of that gang but Will's father is the product of generations of inbreeding and therefore cannot have the normal intelligence of the rest of the population. As pleasant a young guy as he is, and I would be proud of him if he were mine, I cannot see he can possibly have the above intelligence that is needed for such a job as an Armed Forces pilot.
This is getting far away from the points you've made here, Mike, but I'll come to those now.
I agree that you don't need to be skilled at something to teach it. I can remember taking two O'level courses at night school with my youngest son because he was doing badly in English and Maths. I thought I would love the maths and hate the English. It was the other way around in fact. The english teacher was passionate and obviously loved his subject: the maths teacher read off a text and if you asked her a question she just said we should know it before taking the course. I enjoyed the English so much that I have had several things published since.
That is a small example of the difference in the qualities teachers have but when it comes to teaching extremely important things like flying combat aircraft only the very best of them should be in the job. It certainly should not be a 'jobs for the boys' position! We should not have him teaching something like that just to give him something to do! Let him teach history or teach him cooking so that he can test other people on that but do not waste our hard earned cash on teaching him to fly a helicopter which he'll never be able to use as it's intended!
As for that pint or two, Mike, if you ever get over to the west coast of Wales or to London I'd be pleased to share a few 4Xs or a couple of Guinesses with you, Mate!
To tell the truth I had had a few when I wrote my piece last night - as you may have been able to tell

On the basis that a Western Oriental Gentleman can take out the most sophisticated machine with a hand held SAM, perhaps the whole air force thing is a waste of effort?
The fork lift driving course makes moi laugh, up until a few years ago you just got on the thing and played with it ( ensuring a bit of space around ) and hey presto a bit of common sense and one was away.
Now you pay £150 or so, do exactley the same thing and get a bit of paper, but with someone watching.
As for instructing on flying machines, the purpose of an instructor ( who is really a safety pilot )is to get you out of trouble when you get in it ( which you will every time), very little else as the whole thing is self learnt. The instructor cannot make your hands, feet and eyes work. Its something you get the hang of yourself.
Simulators are rubbish, now matter how sophisticated it aint real.
Like angling, there is no such thing as any book on the subject that is of any practical use on the water apart from tying knots etc.

The only book I need for fishing, Mimi, is a chart of the Cleddau and the Pembrokeshire coastline. Invaluable!

Cannot remember what I wrote Larry that would need editing, getting old I guess? but whatever it was no offence intended
Sea fishing easy, the wet bits have got the fish in them, the dry bit is what you fish from.
The wetter it is the better it is, except when its flat, unless its a sandbank.

Hello Danny, I have just read your post. I should be outside on this lovely day but I am avoiding the garden like the plague. I know how you feel about meds etc, I don't have high blood pressure which erks my doctor no end because I am over weight, but I take 27 tablets per day for diabetes, Crohns disease, Arthritis, kidney stones and a hiatus hernia which I treat as an inconvenience to my lifestyle.

I plan to take my wife over to the UK next year and am looking forward to it. I have to meet up with Steve M at one end of the country and then visit my wife's relations in Essex and Yorkshire. We hope to see Wales and also London where I have a cousin living. I don't know about the 4x though Danny, if you are referring to Queensland beer. The reason they put 4x's on the label is because they can't spell beer. However, I am quite partial to Guinness so I'll be happy to buy you one or three. I'd better forewarn you that my nickname is Gullytrap as I've been know to sink a few in a short time!

However I digress. I gather from your post that you felt nepatism is playing a part which may very well be. It would be hard to have to reject a Royal I think. However, just thinking about it, I am wondering if Wil does have the right qualifications for selection. Plus, if the RAF is anything like our Airforce, selection is of a very high standard.

I was based at Pt Cook in Victoria for 5 years and worked with 1FTS (Flight Training School)and Acadamy Cadets. The difference between Acadamy and FTS was the Academy Cadets all attended University and graduated with a degree whereas the FTS cadets graduated as pilots after passing their flight training. I also knew some of the Officer instructors who told me that the selection process was very selective because they weren't about to waste money on trainees who might not complete the course.

I did know how the cost to train a RAAF Pilot but it would be out of date as I have been out of the Airforce for 24 years now. I know it was far above my Mustering salary.

I also noted similararities between Tony Blair and our very own desiccated coconut John Howard. What our problem is we have a situation that if you kicked George Bush in the bum, you'd break John Howard's ankles.

I don't know what the solution is in regards to William, Danny but hopefully there will be some sort of public opinion kicking in which may sway those in charge to take a second look at things.

It does seem a little unfair that certain people are given preference because of their position in life which I feel is unfair to say the least. I have some more questions about this topic but I am hesitant to post in case I am boring other members. Perhaps I should discuss certain things by e-mail which is what I do with Steve M regarding off topic material. I have a lot of e-mail pen friends.

Mike.

Hi Mike
Just a line or two as I'm away to the Emerald Isle this morning. A few of us are sailing round to Dingle - a little town I love to visit a couple of times a year.
You really must rattle, Mike, with 27 tablets a day! I'm nowhere near your league, Mate! I'm just on 4 at the moment plus eyedrops for my glucoma.
Don't take my whinging about the Royals too much to heart - I would sooner have them than a President (one in particular springs to mind!) I think Wills is a great young fellow and so is his brother, Harry.
Harry's been into one of our local clubs recently as he's been attached to a tank regiment close by. I hear from a few of the locals that he likes a good drink but I doubt if he'd see you or me under the table, Mike! I think we're lucky to have them in line to our throne as it could have been a lot worse if Charles had married someone other than Diana.
Well, I'd love to see you if you get over here next year. Got to go now but I'll email you in a week or so.
Cheers
Danny

Hello Danny, I suppose by the time you get to read this you I should imagine you have returned from your trip. Sounds great, I'm jealous now! I would love to meet you next year and will look forward to having a pint with you. My shout though!

I hope your eye problems are under control and fixable. I don't profess to know too much about your infliction but I have known one or two people with the same condition.

I'd be happy to hear from you. Do you have access to my e-mail address? Let me know viz posting here and I'll make arrangements to supply it to you if need be. I read where you attended night school with your son and have to say I thought it was admirable of you to accompany him. My wife did a correspondance course in English for her VCE which, I imagine islike your A or O levels? We were living in Shepparton, Country Victoria at the time and she had to sit the ezam at a local high school.

VCE is awarded after passing final exams before leaving secondary school and is a prerequisite for University unless a person is a mature age student.


Getting back to the topic, I saw an article ridiculing William for taking his girlfriend(who also came under fire) on a hunting trip. Maybe that could be a new vocation for William, Big Game Hunter and Guide.

Could you imagine William's girlfriend being interviewed about her hunting experience. "And did you shoot any Stags, Miss?"

"No, but I did manage to shoot 4 road signs!"

As someone who comes from a country where nearly every road sign, including the Bambi warning ones has a 270 or a 308 through it I am pleased that it happens down under as well.

Danny, next time you sail this way I can give you marks off the Saltees and Cobh where you can get a fish a drop to give fresh fish to the crew.

Yes Mimi, we have our fair share of Morons and Ratbags here so if you ever need some, you know where to get them from and we'll also throw in some cane toads for you to sweeten the deal.

Someone did get caught shooting roadsigns and it was presumed they shot several others on the highway. It cost them a $3,000.00 for their little stunt. I have noticed that since a lot of guns were banned here, there has been a decline in random roadsign shootings.

Bozo writes:
"You are right Fettes was founded by the founder of the Hitler Jugend"

Er, actually Fettes was founded in the middle of the 19th century. I think perhaps you mean Gordonstoun.

Gordonstoun was founded by Dr Kurt Hahn in 1934. So far from founding the Hitler Jugend, Hahn was an opponent of the Nazis and fled Germany after they took power.

I think you'll find that the Hitler Jugend was actually started by a certain A. Hitler.