Just been advised by News24 that our government ruled out total ban on smacking at home.(of children)
The report went on to explain that a mild smacking was defined as a physical punishment that caused no severe marks or damage. They did not explain what part of the body should be targeted by the parent or guardian.
Does this mean that a teacher can visit a parent and if both agree, the child can be punished at home by the said parent for offences at school? Assuming that the punishment hurts but does not mark or damage the child.
Maybe a suitable documentry could be produced by the BBC to demonstrate what methods and maybe even impliments should be used now.

Over 850 comments have been posted to this BBC news item today. How many of the writers, I wonder, would admit to having a morbid interest in corporal punishment?

http://newsforums.bbc.co.uk/nol/thread.jspa?sortBy=1&forumID=3734&start=0&tstart=0&edition=1&ttl=20071025175907#paginator

Monty, this may be of some interest to you as a related topic.

On the nine msn (Australian) website there is a daily question for people to answer. All answers are recorded and the figures are shown to the right of the question.

This mornings question is 'Do you think Australia should introduce a ban on smacking.' As of a few minutes ago the results were;

Yes - 729

No - 6862

These figures were collected at 9.50 am this morning EST. Just for interest sake, I will post more results again on this thread later tonight.

This whole smacking issue as presented by the media is a farce!:
1)Smacking or no smacking spanking guardians are going to do it anyway marks or no marks and only 1 case in a 1000 ever comes to court.
2)Lets just face it smacking can never be done "satisfactorily".
Pulling a childs pants down is bad enough -an aggressive violent assault
on its nude buttocks and connected genetalia is traumatic -end of argument.
3)What happened to the "no implements rule?"A hairbrush does not always leave "marks".
4)Why are "marks" the criteria anyway theres practiaclly no difference between a tomato
red pair of buttocks hand spanked and a set with a couple of bleeding
split lines at least not in the mind of the child.
5)Why no crime of "engaging in sadistic and uneccesssary chastisement for adult sexual gratifiaction only?
6)Anyway its not possible to smack in any meaningful sense of the word without "Marks"as even a slight red glow is a "Mark"surely?
7)So its more like a gentle patting is the max.
8)Why not just allow them to pull the pants down and make them stand in the corner but with no smacking at all that would surely be the best solution of all?????eh??????

Mike

I think the figures for the UK would be very similar. There are plenty of laws to catch out the abusers these days and most people feel that a moderate smacking does no harm and often does a lot of good!

Of course it doesn't stop a kid from misbehaving for very long - but what does! It sometimes brings them back to the realisation that they have to behave somewhere near acceptable to their parents, if only for the next half an hour or so.

I think the table has been turned far enough these days, if it went any further the kids would be ruling the adults even more - if that's possible. It seemed to be getting near the time when a child under ten cannot be punished in any way and that's crazy! As long as there is no physical or mental damage done (and I'm not talking about the ridiculous 'do-gooder's version of 'damage') then reasonable chastisement is exactly what the term suggests.

Danny, the figures had gon up considerably since yesterday.

The question again; Do you think Australia should introduce a ban on smacking?

The Yes vote 3790

The No vote 30532

Just goes to show I am in a very small minority.

Danny I agree in most part with what you say but my only concern is what I have witnessed myself.

I once saw a man laying into a ten year old girl, hitting her around the head with a rolled up newspaper. He was in an absolute rage with her.

I had no choice other than to go to the girls aide. I have seen mothers smack their children in shopping malls etc and accept that it is nothing more than a tap. The child reacts predictablly to the sting and a change in behaviour instantly occurs. How long for is the question, as you point out.

I still feel that it is the parents who need more education in the area of controling their children.

I read an article from a mother who wrote in response to an article about the terrible two's etc. She said she used to have trouble getting her child dressed when they were going out. She said at times she did feel like giving the child a good smack because she had enough.

She then decided to offer a choice to the child as to what clothing they wanted to wear. This came about after the child wanted something that was in the wash. The lady said she told the child that what they wanted to wear was in the wash however, she had two other items of clothing she wanted the child to choose instead.

The child made the choice and she said it put an end to the issue. She then applied reasoning to the child instead of smacking because she felt it had a negative impact on the child anyway and was only good for changing behaviour in the short term.

In the days of my childhood, parents smacked first, asked questions later. In my case whenever I was out with my mother and a child was misbehaving, my mother would point out how the child was drawing attention to itself and how good an well behaved I was. A little praise went a long way with me because I tried to please my parents by being well behaved.

I'm off now to polish my halo!

While I agree in part with you, Mike, I still feel a complete ban would be a backward step that would have serious consequences in the long term.

Most kids never need a smacking, I have six kids who between them were only smacked 4 or 5 times at the most. That's an average of less than once each but, in reality, my eldest was the main recipient! Was it that we were harder on him? Probably! There are many reasons why the first child is more firmly disciplined than the rest. The parent's inexperience is the main thing; their expectations are greater when they've never been through bad behaviour before.

Two other reasons A) The eldest usually feels he has to show off in front of his younger brothers and sisters. B) when a younger one sees their elder sibling being chastised it makes more effect on them than it does the child being smacked. That's the main reason why I think school CP is an effective punishment - it's effect on the onlookers!

I know that I am of an age where, as a youngster, the climate of opinion was that smacking was absolutely normal - and you, Mike, being almost a generation younger, had a different and sligtly more modern upbringing. Smacking maybe outdated now - as is good manners - but it's my opinion that being up-to-date is not always a step in the right direction.

My sister's two daughters were ideal as far as behaviour was concerned and they never needed to be told twice. Like you, Mike, she never believed in any sort of physical punishment and very rarely had to even give them a talking to. If she had had my eldest boy I think she would have seen things differently! All the talking in the world made no difference to him and that's why I think banning a parent from smacking altogether would be a backward step.
I would add that my eldest son turned out fine and is more considerate to others than my other kids. He is also more loving towards me than the others so I don't think it did him any harm.

Good discussion, Mike, let's hear some other views - after all, this is the subject of the forum!

We really must get beyong this adults vs kids thing.
often the reason kids are misbehaving in the first place
is due to the adults attitude in some way.
I recently over heard a terrible case on atrain
the whole journey 2 hours consisited of
child said rude word,was minorly naughty wouldnt sit still
adult responded "shut up""be quiet""sit still"
this went on for 2 and a half hours
very very gradually the adult became ruder and ruder
to he child and more aggressive
eventually theatening a slap etc.(which never materialised_
the sound of these inept morons droning on and on as we passed some of the most beautiful countryside in Europe
was really grating.
We felt like saying to the lot of them as they got off
"thanks for spoiling our peace and quiet with your pathetic
fleah size little squabble you complete anti social idiots"
and the we wonder why parents fo AWOL and do them selves in?

Danny, the reason why I am against smacking in part is from what I witnessed, interviened in and wrote on my post. I am divided in my family about this topic. My wife and her sister-in-law (wife's brother's wife;what a mouthful that is) believe in a smack does more good than harm.

My argument is, and always has been that the disciplinarian in a houshold should be the mother. Oh brother, I am going to come under fire for this but I have my reasons.

Firstly, men are much stronger than women. Secondly, they are more prone to losing their temper than a woman and find it harder to control themselves.
My story of the father striking his daughter around the head with a rolled up newspaper attests to that.

Thirdly, men act too quickly to a situation without taking time to use some logic and think things through.

Lastly, most cases relating to child abuse feature men as the culprits. There was the Baby Jaiden case here not long ago. Mother steps out leaving the toddler in the care of the boyfriend. Mom comes home to find no child. The childs bruised and tattered body was found a few days later in a local Dam. Police charged the boyfriend but he beat the murder charge. The family took him to court and the magistrate found evidence that he definitely had some involvement but once again he got off.

More recently, a father out of spite against his ex-wife drove his car into a Dam drowning his three sons. He has just been found guilty and sentencing is taking place shortly.

I went to school with a boy who was physically abused by his father. there wasn't a week went by that he didn't have a new cut or bruise. Eventually the authorities stepped in and placed him in foster care.

The first sentence in Bozo's post realtes to what I said earlier. A lot of the problems we have are due to ignorant parents who know no better.

I am not against smacking under certain circumstances Danny, I just feel it needs to be controlled. I was petrified by my father who was like an old Tom Cat; Full of pee and wind but he was very frightening when I was younger. I feel this is why I behaved.

He also worried about how other people would judge him if his children weren't perfect. Mom and dad had plenty of arguments over discipline and it was my mother who said if it had to be done, she would carry it out as she felt that dad was too powerful.

In my situation, I told my wife I would support her but I would never lay my hands on a child and I have chosen to live by that decision. I know it won't appeal to everyone but it suits me. Besides, I like to be seen as the good guy.

Danny, recaping about your eldest, I agree with you there. Most first born seem to have a harder time of it. I was the last born and I always get ribbed about getting away with things. Not quite so. I think it was because my parents were older when I came along and more tired.

Mike

I was going out this morning early but there's a real gale going on outside so we've all decided to give it a miss today. Which gives me the opportunity to reply to your interesting post here this morning.

I agree wholeheartedly with you that abuse should be jumped upon from a great height at all times. Where I must disagree though is that a child must never be physically punished. It does them no good to know that they are 'fire-proof' and no one must touch them.

I always use the analogy of driving rules and penalties. How many of us would bother about speed limits or drink-drive laws if they were 'for guidance only'? No, it's the penalty of losing your licence and the fines imposed that stop most - if not all - drivers. In other words it's the fear factor which makes us behave reasonably well on our roads.

Now if a child fears nothing and can see no detrimental consequences of misbehaviour he/she has no incentive to behave in a reasonable way - or perhaps that should be, deterrent not to do so.

Most kids can be controlled by all the other disciplinary methods but some just do not - my eldest for instance! All other methods must be tried first -and second and maybe third - but there comes a time when something more effective has to be resorted to. Probably he or she will learn from that one good spanking and never need another but not always. The main thing is it will almost certainly make his/her siblings toe the line anyway!

My wife was the one with the short fuse in our house and I was usually the one who felt the blast! She never actually punished the kids though, she mostly blew her top, ending with the time-honoured phrase "Wait 'til your father gets home!"
When I did get in, normally everything would have calmed down and she'd have forgiven them. On the rare occasions though when that didn't happen it would have completely undermined her authority if I hadn't acted, so then I did. Of course not having had the bad behaviour from them I was never in a temper so I suppose it was a good system, in that sense anyway.

These days I doubt if many would risk having the police round if they laid a finger on little Billy but in those days it was accepted. I think kids would be better off if things hadn't gone full circle though, Mike!

Danny, thanks for you reply. My mother never used the 'Wait until your father comes home' phrase and most of my friends parents didn't either. Some of my friends discussed this and they said they felt it was passing the buck and why should they have been the bad guys. I could see their point of view on the subject.

I am not fully against discipline for children, I am just concerned that sometimes it goes too far and falls into the relms of abuse Danny. I'm sure your children are well adjusted people as are their children.

Children are children and they will inevitably get involved in some mischief or another at varying degrees of seriousness. Small children will occasionally misbehave or get into a tantrum when shopping and yes, they need to be corrected but it is how severly they are corrected which concernes me.

I am not totally against correcting a child, don't get me wrong. It's just that it is something I personally couldn't and wouldn't do. I just worry about parents getting out of control. Not all parents are child bashers but ther is that small percentage and they are the ones I feel, who could benefit from parenting classes. As you say Danny, children are a quick study and siblings learn quickly too what is and what is not acceptable. A tap every now and again probably doesn't hurt some I agree as long as it is not abusive.