As requested by Ketta-let's start the New Year here.

No doubt Ketta, Ryan & KK can all repost their experiences and thoughts here regarding copping it at school for something you didn't do. Maybe any of you 3 saw it happen to others as well, which would also be interesting.

Apart from my previously-related experience with Frances at Infants School, when she got it big-time and I didn't, the only things I nearly got clobbered for were detentions, when totally innocent.

There were 2 or 3 and I got off every time by arguing my case. But the injustice stung to start with.

That's probably why I flattened my Headmaster on my last day. It wasn't the pathetic expel-him-at-the-last opportunity gesture that enraged me, it was par for the course.

What stung was the inflammatory remark-You're a degenerate. You can call me quite a few things, but that is not a wise one, to this day, if you don't want to end up in A & E.

As far as others went, a couple of times at primary school kids got slippered & Teacher was apologetic when it was discovered they were innocent, nothing at secondary school. The worst bit at primary level was both kids(one boy, one girl)were quiet characters and just didn't speak up for themselves.

I have to say, I've always had a sense of justice and injustice, and not always to my ultimate advantage! But I strongly suspect I was born with it.

Even so, being accused of something I didn't do, even by Sarah, still gets my goat, aged 56.


Steve M

Speaking of instances of caning innocents, I recall reading in the local community newspaper (full of inconsequential suburban chit chat) about a retiring headmaster in the area.

One of his anecdotes concerned having unjustly caned a boy and when he was presented with the evidence he apologised. He said it was clear that the lad was not going to be satisfied with an apology and the sense of injustice could have festered on.

To settle the matter the Headmaster offered to receive the same punishment he had given. He handed over his cane and held out his hand. The lad had no hesitation, apparantly, in delivering three strokes!

I wonder if anyone else has knowledge of instances like this one? It does make a certain sense and I'd be surprised if this was the first and only time.

How adversity affects people is often determined in large part by their attitude to that adversity.

I was at school when much of the world map was coloured red and rice and pasta were considered strange foreign foods. Hands were strapped at primary school (5-12 y.o.) and the seat of the school uniform shorts was caned a secondary school. The most common crime was inattention or talking in class. (I got my first cane stroke for not having my phys ed gear.) One or two strokes of the cane was common with 4?s and 6?s reserved for serious offences (offences trivial by today?s standards).

In the main the cane was applied enthusiastically but without malice and received stoically and without rancour. Boys rarely denied their guilt and often owned up to offences they had committed, especially if their classmates knew who was guilty. It was part of the school boy code. It was possible sometimes to negotiate the tariff (number of strokes). Guilty boys sometimes spoke up for the innocent. This meant gross injustice was rare.

Most masters were considered to be ?fair?. It was well understood that masters differed - some were strict and caned often. Others were more tolerant and caned less often. Our main requirement was that masters were predictable and that they should strive to be fair. We did not mind if masters varied from day to day if we were warned or could easily tell. Reading a master?s mood and knowing how far to push things was a great sport.

Our teachers tended not to conduct detailed inquiries or to try to determine subtle scales of culpability when offences were suspected or detected. Rather, the tariffs tended to be fixed. Fighting got you 4 of the best. It did not matter who started it or what it was about or how violent the fight was. The caning usually followed within a few minutes of the fight being detected.

Some things could not be changed. The sun rose, sometimes it rained and teachers could be unpredictable. No use complaining or getting upset. Win some, lose others. Tomorrow is another day.

How adversity affects people is often determined in large part by their attitude to that adversity.

Some things could not be changed. The sun rose, sometimes it rained and teachers could be unpredictable. No use complaining or getting upset. Win some, lose others. Tomorrow is another day.

Very sound advice by KK and very much my own philosophy of life. It's advice I would commend to the (presumably) fairly young man in another on-going thread in this estimable Forum, but one hesitates to intrude on private grief.

Does this count?

One of my sixes, Head picked me out of a group of us cutting last lesson before din-dins to go n have a fag outside school. He bloody well knew there were lots more than me being regulars at it.

Also, Steve & co, he took a run-up at it with me. Drew blood off 3 of the welts and effing bruisin was around for a month after. GIT! An thats polite!

Didnt stop me, either.


SOOOZE

Hi Soooze. I've always advocated the return of school cp, and I know that's unpopular with some people here, possibly with you. However, there's school cp and there's brutality. In my opinion any corporal punishment of a child that draws blood and/or leaves marks or bruising for more than a few days isn't legitimate school or home cp, it's out and out brutality deserving of prosecution and severe penalty, then, now, or any time in between!

Even in the very unlikely event that your headmaster was motivated by a premonition that smoking 20 a day between ages 15 and 65 would cost you upwards of £80,000 in today's money (true I'm afraid, work it out) rather than just taking an opportunity to severely beat a girl he regarded as naughty, he was still way way over the mark.

However, as for taking a run-up, I'm not sure he actually made things a lot worse by doing that. It looks impressive, and presumably was extremely intimidating since you specifically remember it, but given that normal arm swing combined with flick of the wrist and cane flexibility is supposed to be able to impart a cane impact speed of over 100 mph I wonder if the 6 or 7 mph he might have attained in his (presumanbly office confined) short run up would have added much to his performance. I've never been caned though. You, and other people here who have been may well shoot me down on this.

Hi A_L

Guess what-he took a curved run from one corner of his office, so he got more distance.

100 mph-I never even driven THAT fast-no wonder it bloody hurt!!

As Im 38, how much has 20 a day cost me since age 17-might just make me give up if you can quote me some accurate figs!

Soooze

Hi Soooze. You and I have some interesting exchanges. I'd better make a confession. When you first appeared on this estimable Forum I had a strong suspicion that you might be the creation of an eminent contributor here, famed for his practical jokes, who having made a pretty accurate assessment of my weak spots was seeing just how far he could wind me up. I do so hope I was mistaken!

Anyway, your caning headmaster and his run-up. The man must have been some sort of caning paragon if he could run in a curve AND maintain accuracy. However, since even young ladies like yourself were caned four times by him in your school career no doubt he had lots and lots of practice. He must have been quite mortified about the waste of such painfully (for pupils like you that is, not for him) acquired expertise when he had to stop caning by law, presumably around the time you left school as you're 38.

My estimate of 100 mph for the impact speed? Well in their school lectures on why youngsters shouldn't get themselves in trouble with the law the Malaysian authorities quote 160 km/hour as the cane speed in prison canings. That's as near 100 mph as makes no difference.

Now agreed the average caning headmaster probably wasn't capable of propelling the cane as fast as a specially trained prison caner. However, school canes were far more flexible than the rather stiff and heavy canes used in Malayasian judicial CP, and in the final part of the stroke the 'business end' of the school cane was accelerated as the cane unwound from the flexing caused by its initial acceleration. This added to the impact speed, hence I reckon 100 mph for a severe school caning was probably about right.

You say you've never even driven at 100 mph. Very wise, 'cos on the public roads it's considered very naughty! However, if you did, and were so unfortunate as to hit something solid, you've an appreciation of what the initial impact with your seat belt might feel like. Sadly what follows very rapidly after that is unlikely to involve simply recovering your composure and carrying on with life!

And now the fags. The sums aren't difficult, but the cost obviously depends on your choice of brand. I happen to be most familiar with one that currently costs around £5·75 for 20 in the average small shop or garage. That's as near as makes no difference to £2100 per year at 20 a day. Age 17 to age 38 is 21 years, so with the cigarettes mentioned we get £44,100 so far. You may smoke a cheaper brand, in which case reduce the total accordingly.

Note that I did say in today's money, and there are obviously some assumptions in calculating a total on that basis:

• That the price of cigs has increased over the years roughly in line with inflation.
• That you could have invested the money saved to at least maintain its value relative to inflation.
• That you did so invest it, rather than frittering it away on booze instead!

The first two are probably not unreasonable assumptions, as for the latter only you can judge what you'd have done!

Another_Lurker, was that comment about advice you'd commend aimed at me? If so, there's no private grief here just some minor angst that really doesn't matter all that much.

The advice is good advice (I've just recently qualified as a psychologist) and I've always done my best to put the past behind me and let past pain stay in the past. But it's also healthy to address it when you get the chance, and I got the chance here.

And, yeah, I am fairly young. Late 20s. I've seen more of life than most people my age though. And a lot more pain and suffering. I joined the army straight out of school - at the time it looked like the world was a peaceful place. Now, that was a big mistake - not one I regret although I'm glad it's behind me.

As you ask Paul, yes indeed it was you I had in mind. Possibly I over estimated the extent to which you were aggrieved about your experience, and also I didn't want to get involved directly in what seemed to be a private discussion between yourself and Doctor Dominum.

You were unfortunate to have your army career at a time of considerable world tension, but it has to be said that when you're as old as me (late 60s) you'll know the world never is a peaceful place, and probably never will be! Congratulations on your recent qualification. I hope that it leads onto something safer, and somewhat more remunerating, than soldiering!

You may cause some confusion here if you continue to post as Paul. We already have a Paul, and by a strange coincidence I've also commented here very recently regarding him. He is (or rather was) the moderator of another CP forum on Network54 which was closed down for apparently violating one or more of the regulations governing forums.

hi A_L


Wow-blindin me with science! Wish our physics teacherd been so interesting!

Actually I think the price nearly doubled around 2000 to appeas the health ninnies, but thats still lots of readies!

Havin said that about the health ninnies though its cut mine down cos you have to go out and smoke at work, and breaks get monitored.

Thanks for the verdict on the running head-thought it was OTT then,but at the time Mums bloke/my stepdad was a bigger git and might have given me more if Id squealed.

Dont worry-all history now!


Soooze

Ah well, I thought I'd been able to give up on this forum but the return of Another_Lurker has brought me out of the woodwork again.

I agree that a run-up caning doesn't add much to the final velocity, and indeed is likely to play havoc with accuracy. But there are other matters to consider.

First, it isn't just the speed of the cane when it lands which causes the pain. There's also the matter of the weight (which, for a given size, depends on the density). A heavier cane hurts more, or to put it another way, if the cane hardly weighed anything then it would hardly hurt at all. It's really a matter of the energy stored up in the movement, which has to be dissipated in the flesh of the recipient. This is kinetic energy, which depends on the mass of the cane and the square of its velocity.

But there's also another kind of energy available, namely the potential energy stored in the curvature of the cane. This will also be available unless (and this is unlikely) the cane is straight when it lands. And the potential energy also contributes to the pain: imagine a compressed spring held touching your skin, and then suddenly release the spring - ouch!

I ought to be able to work this out properly (I'm supposed to be a mathematician, after all!) and I'll have a go at it sometime if I have nothing better to do. But there is another point to think about.

Imagine a cane pulled back, and then swished forward. If these two movements are part of a single smooth action, then the pull-back will itself impart potential energy to the cane -- it will be curved rather than straight even at the start of the forward movement. This will be added to the energy given by the arm-wrist forward movement. Even more painful, wouldn't you say?

Hi Alan!

fascinatin'! Do you reckon if my Head had his wrist cocked back an then whipped it forward as he reached me hed of got max velocity on the stick?

The cane was straight-not a curved figure 6 or 9 job so if he had it cocked back at 30 degrees or more an whipped it through to the vertical is that the position of maximum impact? Or would he of needed to go through to 330 degrees for that.

Cor-have we got a new discovery- PMI???!!! You better do the maths tho Alan-got my O level somehow but was more Ouch level at school, as youve heard!


Soooze

It is not just the kinetic energy of the cane (weight and speed) that matters but how quickly the kinetic energy is dissipated and where. (Rate of energy dissipation = power)

Consider being struck by a very slow moving freight train. The kinetic energy is enormous because of the enormous weight but very little energy is dissipated and you are pushed harmlessly and painlessly aside. (Do not fall under the wheels!)

Consider a cane that bounces off - it retains some of its kinetic energy.

Now consider a light cane - it slows quickly on impact and dissipates much of its energy in the pain receptor rich surface layer. A heavier cane skillfully swung impacts at much the same speed but is slower to slow. After its initial impact it continues on compressing the flesh against the bone. Deep bruising results but the intensity of the immediate pain is not greatly greater. The wounding is greater and pain and soreness is longer lasting.

Light canes give the best pain to wounding ratio.

KK regarding the slow moving train, it will bash you something horrible unless its barely moving. All to do with mass against surface area.

Hi Alan Turing. I noted you hadn't posted while I was away and my speed of cane impact stuff was of course specially designed to lure you back in! Sadly, I'm not a mathematician. A-level and first year university maths for a practical science a very long time ago and most of which I've forgotten. I also suffer from the handicap of never having been caned or wielded a cane in anger, so I'm lacking both the theory and the practice!

As I said in my response to Soooze, I am aware that the flex (curvature) of the cane and its influence in the latter part of the stroke is critical to the result. Although Soooze has been caned her remark that "The cane was straight-not a curved figure 6 or 9 job" may indicate that she isn't aware just how flexible those things were.

If that's the case Soooze, and you thought of the implement you were chastised with as something like a bamboo garden stick, it almost certainly wasn't! Normal school canes, with or without a curved 'handle' were very flexible and their dynamics were somewhere between a whip and a rigid rod, with a bias towards the whip end of the scale. However they sometimes differed a bit in density, diameter, length and flexibility to (supposedly) provide some variation in the agony for boys and girls, juniors and seniors.

KK makes some very valid points regarding the relative effects of light and heavy canes. I believe the aficionados refer to this as sting and thud. School canes were, I think, generally at the 'sting' end of the scale. I'm sure those more expert than me will correct this assumption if required!

As for your PMI (Position of Maximum Impact) Soooze, I think that depends on whether you mean your position or the position of the caner (and the cane). In the former case I understand that touching your toes may have given a more painful experience than bending over a desk, assuming the same cane stroke. However there were I believe lots of other variations, and again those with the relevant experience may well correct me.

I look forward to any calculations Alan. My 100 mph for impact speed does sound a bit high, but it's the best I've got at present.

Hi

Great bein the subject of all this high flyin' maths!!

Yep, A_L, it was toe-touching-spose that give the Head a tight skirt over bum to aim at.

AND I will be subject of another experiment soon-more of which in due course-not until 16th!


Soooze

Hi Soooze.

AND I will be subject of another experiment soon-more of which in due course-not until 16th!

Grrr, I hate suspense, I'm an instant gratification man!

I have not done any experiments with trains but have been hit by a car when cycling. I bounced harmlessly over the bonnet and off the windscreen onto the road landing on my butt then rolling down the street, relatively unhurt save for the first impact with the road. Definitely thud rather than sting. The road was not damaged.

++++++++

How fast is the typical laid-on-hard school cane going when it lands?

How much kinetic energy is it carrying?

How much of this energy is dissipated in the flesh, and how quickly?

Why does the cane hurt so much?

In the absence of experimental data I will proceed by analogy.

The badminton racket and the school master's cane are both light and whippy. They are of roughly similar weight. The strokes involve roughly similar body, arm and wrist motion. The cane is usually a little longer than the badminton racket.

Top badminton players have serves in excess of 200 km per hour. This suggests the top caners could potentially reach similar cane tip speeds if their technique is good.

A typical 1 x 90 cm rattan school cane weighs about 50 g.
(pie times radius-squared times length times density = 3.141 x 0.5^2 x 90 x 0.7)

Assume just half of the cane is effective. (25 g)
Assume an average cane speed of 150 km/h. (Assuming linear rather than circular motion).

The energy will be about 22 Joules.
(one half m v-squared = 0.5 x 0.025 x [150 x 1000 / 3600]^2).

If the cane is brought to a stop in just 3 cm the average force exerted is 75 kg
(energy divided by distance divided by g to convert Newtons to kg force = 22 / 0.03 / 9.8).

If 22 square cm of skin is affected (=1.5 x 15 cm), the pressure on the skin is about 3.5 kg per square centimetre.
(force divided by area = 75 / 22)

Small changes in cane speed have a big effect on its energy, and the pain inflicted.

If the cane lands on a bony bottom it will stop more quickly and exert a greater force.

If the cane bounces off it will take some of its energy with it.

Yes indeed. My point was that, as the cane is likely to be curved at the moment of impact, there will be additional potential energy available, beyond that indicated by the formula for kinetic energy. This, too, will finish up as heat in the bottom, essentially caused by friction between the cells as the flesh is distorted by the impact. (Or so I imagine, I'm not an expert in the physiology of the buttocks!)

Another point to consider is the difference between compression and shear. A flat implement like a slipper will result in compression but hardly any shear: it's not really moving fast enough for the edges to make much of a difference. A cane compresses the flesh as well, but it also shears it, rather like a very blunt knife, so that the skin is stretched before the shock wave ripples out from the line of impact. I guess that's why repeated cane strokes on the same place tend to draw blood, because the skin has been weakened by the initial stretching. And, of course, this shearing produces surface pain.

By the way: if you're bending over a desk, most of the energy in the cane will finish up as heat. Not so if you're standing in the way of a slow-moving goods train -- if it did, you'd have managed to stop the train! Though of course if you're bending over the buffers at the end of the line, you'll discover that a crushed pelvis is just as painful as a caning!

Soooze, your post about your headmaster taking a run-up reminds me of something I read in the book Marks On The Memory, which I have described elsewhere on this forum. The author had been informed by several of the boys in her study of how one of the year heads, a woman, who had the authority to deal out the slipper, would compensate for her lesser female body-strength by jumping off a chair when administering it. Although Ms Stanway regarded one of these boys as sincere and truthful and generally a credible witness, she nevertheless admitted to finding the image of the "dignified senior mistress jumping off a chair" impossible to believe, and regarded the claims with bemused incredulity.

I was lucky enough that such fun and games did't go on at my ownsecondary school, but I have since found a couple of other accounts concerning other teachers in other school which attest to them using the same technique to gain extra strength.

Apparently those boys who had themselves experienced this woman's slipper regarded the spectacle with whimsical amusement. It is a pretty ridiculous image after all. Presumably it was some small consolation for the belittlement and the stinging backsides they received from her.

SAFRADA

Thank you for the best laugh in ages.

I can quite believe it happened, though, it just has that so-daft-it-must-be-true ambience about it.

Does give a new meaning to Whacky Races, though! Sounds just like the sort of thing Prof Pat Pending would have dreamed up en route!


Steve M

Actually, this raises another interesting point - the trajectory of the cane or slipper. If you're bending over a desk (or touching your toes) the best trajectory ought to be fairly horizontal; but if you're bending in such a way that your legs are diagonal, for instance over the back or side of an armchair, then the best trajectory could well be nearly vertical.

I was trying to wonder how jumping off a chair would help when trying to slipper a boy who was touching his toes, but my imagination failed me!

I remember reading about some female teacher who used to jump off a chair when hand caning because she was vertically challenged.
The mind boggles.
It may have been at Bacons?

I attended a boys school and the cane was administered by the Headmaster, Deputy Headmaster or your Year Master. The most number of strokes you could receive was 'six of the best' and this was administered to your buttocks while you were bending over and touching your toes. If you were being sent for the cane you had a note from your teacher informing the Master's your offence and requesting that you be caned for your punishment. Most were generally good and would punish you with a detention and then threaten you with being sent for the cane if your behaviour did not improve. I was caned four times during my 13 years of schooling. The Headmaster was the most proficient at caning and he would flex his cane in front of you and inform you how many strokes you were going to receive, (the first time he caned me he announced that I would be receving four strokes and the three canings I received afterwards were the full six strokes), before telling you to bendover and touch your toes. He didn't tap your bottom with the cane like the Deputy Headmaster did but he would line the cane against your bottom before administering each stroke.

He left a good three seconds between each stroke and he would line the cane against your bottom, taking aim before each stroke. After the stroke he would count the number of that stroke. After the strokes had been given he put his cane on his desk and order you to stand up and then you were dismissed back to class.

Hi.
I really liked what you wrote here.
I am 50 years old but I was growing in Israel in a "kibuts" (small village with everything common and children lived in a house of the same age from the age of zero to 18) and also were very unhappy for injustice (especially to me but also to others).
We didn't have an official CP and it was really rare that someone got a smack and smack were only a spontanious reaction and not planned.
Later on as an adult I worked in the UK and heard some very unpleasant stories that some times reminded me stories about Jewish holowcast (as I already mentioned I am from Israel and therefore I am Jewish) and concentration camps (it wasn't the same but I found common things).
The story I heard that finally convinced me that all the idea of CP is wrong was that:
Five Scottish boys were standing somewhere outside the classroom when a teacher passed there with a belt on his shoulder.
One of the five (the person who told me that at the age of 30 still didn't know who) made a kind of noise with his mouth.
The teacher turned around, ask who did it and when he got no answer he took all the five to his office for "six of the best" (here I heard this expression for the first time, they arrived to the office and two of them (my freind was the second) got six of the best (three on a palm).
then one of the boys started to cry and the teacher gave up and released the other three with out punishment.
The next day he apologize to the two who got it but (for my opinion) for the wrong reason: he apologize to them that the other three didn't get the same punishment while for my opinion the main issue is that they got an undeserved punishment at all which he didn't even mention.

Hi Dov and if the above was your first post, welcome to this estimable Forum.

It certainly seems to be the case that Scottish teachers were for the most part great belters! Right up to the abolition of corporal punishment in Scotland it was almost impossible for a boy, and quite difficult for a girl, to get through a Scottish state education without being belted (beaten on the hand with an implement called a tawse) at least once. Most pupils seem to have taken it for granted that they would encounter this punishment several times in their school career.

You probably saw them, but in case you did not, one of our eminent contributors prof.n has recently published some pictures of how the tawse was administered in Scottish schools in another thread called Corporal punishment in Malaysia in this Forum. Malaysia has absolutely nothing to do with Scotland, but we do tend to drift off topic here, one of the worst offenders being me! You'll find the pictures in prof.n's post at 17:54 on 25 July 2009 if you click on my link above, but I'm sure prof.n will forgive me if I give you a direct link to them here.

As regards the teacher apologising to the lads in your account, they were very lucky he apologised at all, let alone for the right thing. When corporal punishment was used in British school it was frequently attended by a great deal of unfairness. The objective was sometimes to deter bad behaviour in general rather than to punish specific instances of misbehaviour. In those cases what mattered to the teacher was that somebody got punished. Unfortunately it wasn't always the right person.

Whilst there are some people here who might partly agree with you, I have to say that in my opinion, even though you say it is a limited one, your comparison between school corporal punishment and The Holocaust is misplaced and not appropriate. However, I'm sure you didn't mean it in any literal sense.

Hi Another_Lurker
Ill start from the end:
Of course the holocaust concentration camps can not be literally compared to that, after all people died there, even some camps (the biggest was Auschwitz) were death camps by definition, but the stories I heard from people about the fear atmosphere, also with your earlier remark that the unfairness was a big part of that is some how reminded me.
At least there (in the camps) when someone was caned publicly, no one else (of prisoners of course) found it amusing.

About teacher apologizing: I think fairness must be a part of that game and because (as you mentioned) it was not (I guess not always, see what Ryan Scott wrote just after the beginning by Steve M) and (for my opinion) it should (I cant accept that teachers should be satisfied when some one was punished even if its the wrong person), I think the cane shouldnt be back (people in Israel in my age or even younger that never suffered it want it to be an option in Israel because the lack of discipline, but in our days discipline was much better with out it so the reason should be somewhere else).

I saw the link here; the implement looks very heavy, I guess this what my Scottish friend meant by with the belt on his shoulder.
About my Scottish friend: he didnt complain about it, he actually laughed when he demonstrated the guy who cried and it was really funny, just after some time it started to upset me.

Anecdotes:
1. I want to recommend you to search in google about Eric Wildman and some one with name copping.
Its about canes producer who visited in a progressive school in 1948 and was caned by the boys there, very funny.

2. As you probably know Israel (Palestine actually) was under British occupation before 1948 when we got our independence.
Underground organizations, tried to fight the occupation to have our independence.
Two youths from organization called (best translation I can think about) NMO (National Military Organization) were sentenced to 18 whips.
The organization put stickers everywhere letting the army know that if the youths will be whipped, theyll catch British officers and theyll get the same treatment.
The first person was whipped, few British officers catched and whipped too (I hope not too hard because they were just unlucky, were not involved and it was all only a show) and then before the second whipping the NMO located another stickers that if next whipping will occur the result will be real fire.
The next whipping didnt happened, they found a legal way to avoid it.

Thanks for your welcoming.
Dov

Dov,

There is a thread about Eric Wildman that you may find interesting on this Forum.

http://www.network54.com/Forum/198833/thread/1171475105/last-1172409293/Eric+Wildman+1950s+crusader+for+corporal+punishment%28lenghty%29

The thread contains a link to the encyclopaedic site. Don't expect an update for some time. He's on holiday in Stockport.

Hi Dov. I am very pleased to see that you are also contributing to this estimable Forum in another thread. IMHO we need new contributors here, whatever their position on school corporal punishment. Also American Way needs all the help he can get with his Handbook!

More seriously, I'll touch first on the pre-1948 British Mandate in Palestine (the word 'occupation' which you use is a little emotive as the British presence was completely valid under International law so we'll have to agree to differ on that). You mention the case of the young IRGUN member who was given 18 strokes of the cane on 27 December 1946 for his part in an armed bank robbery. This was a very sad case fron all points of view as it led ultimately to 3 men being hanged. As you say the caning sentence on the second youth was lifted on 8 January 1947 when the British authorities decided that the threatened reprisals for canings made this form of punishment counter-productive.

Two days after the 27 December caning IRGUN members kidnapped and flogged a British officer and three non-commissioned officers. Subsequently three young Jews were arrested and charged with being in possession of arms and rawhide whips on the night of 29 December 1946 when the British soldiers were flogged. These three men were found guilty and sentenced to death in mid February 1947. The emergency situation worsened considerably and martial law was declared over large sections of the Mandate on 2 March 1947. On the morning of April 16 1947, despite the fact that efforts to get their sentences commuted were under way, the three men were hanged in Acre prison, together with a fourth man, Dov Gruner, who had been convicted of taking part in an attack on a police station and who was still attempting to appeal to the Privy Council in London.

At the side of this very sad affair the general issue of the use of judicial corporal punishment under the British Mandate in Palestine rather pales into insignificance, but in fact it was very extensively used for many years, especially against the Arab population. In particular for part of the time the law required that children under 14 should always be subjected to corporal punishment rather than any form of imprisonment. I had cause to investigate this a few years ago. Much of the material I found then has either disappeared or has become lost in the subsequent huge expansion of the WWW. However it was evident that large numbers of young people of both sexes, though predominantly males, were caned by the British authorities. The practise was highly unpopular. In Britain at the time the corporal punishment of young people was almost routine in home and school, and the British found the protests against caning difficult to understand. Sir Alan Cunningham, when the High Commissioner for Palestine, is said to have questioned what all the fuss was about and remarked that 'one shouldn't take these things so seriously'.

Lots of links to support all the above if required. So many that I won't bore readers with them unless somebody asks, but this one in particular has a fair amount of the relevant material.

As regards the tawse, or belt, in Scotland, you might find this PDF pamphlet worth a look Dev. I can understand your aversion to the idea of school corporal punishment. Many people here feel the same, especially some of those who experienced it unfairly. I was lucky. Although I was at shool in the late 1940s and the 1950s when corporal punishment was extensively used by teachers to control the often very large (up to 60 pupils) classes my personal experience of being on the receiving end was limited because I was a very well behaved and hard working little lad! However, I was very aware of just how vital it was then in keeping a lid on bad behaviour and enabling everyone to get a good education without disruption and disturbance in the classroom.

As a result of my experiences I think that even today school corporal punishment would sometimes be better than some of the things that have replaced it here in the UK, such as suspending children from school altogether, which severely limits their opportunity for a good education. At present substantial numbers of children leave British schools unable to read or write properly, or do even the most basic maths. This didn't happen in the days when classroom good order, maintained if necessary by corporal punishment, was paramount. Yes, some pupils were punished unfairly, on a basis of 'Pour encourager les autres' but overall the CP effect was beneficial.

Dov, please accept my apologies. In the penultimate paragraph of my post above I have referred to you as 'Dev'. Whilst some of my errors in the above post, such as 'fron' instead of 'from' and 'shool' instead of 'school' are the result of finger trouble and a sticky keyboard (memo to self: the darn thing is 10 years old, get a new one!) the error regarding your name is sheer carelessness. Again, my apologies.

In my account above of the British Mandate in Palestine flogging incident mentioned by Dov I gave a single link in support. As I said, I had several other links, but none of them, including the one I quoted had anything like a full account, though taken together they gave a reasonably complete picture.

I was not satisfied with my research and subsequently tried a completely different approach, which yielded much better results. Of the new links the best is probably this one where about a third of the way down the page an account is given of the three men hanged following the whipping reprisals, Mordechai Alkahi, Yehiel Dresner and Eliezer Kashani.

Hi Another_Lurker
1. About Dev: I dont really care (it isnt my real name any way and if so, if you wouldnt apologize I wouldnt even see it).
I am a bit concerned about commas; dots and apostrophes disappear after I copy the post to the web.

2. You really impressed me with your history knowledge; I just wanted to show how different coulters looking different at the CP issue.
I also didnt know that the name Irgun (first Hebrew word of the 3 words in the full name which I translated to Organization); is used in English for the organization leaded by Menachem Begin in those days.
About the word occupation (just few words because this forum shouldnt deal with this kind of history): technically you are totally right, I can also admit that the main reason for the use of this word was my poor English but when looking in the history we got Balfur statement in 1917 that gave the Jewish people a welcome place in Palestine and just when we need it desperately for our sisters and brothers in Europe it was stopped to satisfy the Arabs.
During these times when the Arabs in Palestine didnt try to help the war efforts while the Jews in Palestine did their best (common interest I must agree) to help the war efforts against the Nazis including a big number of youths volunteered to fight (and other needed jobs) with British forces.
For my opinion this policy could some how earn the name occupation to the British mandate, but as I already mentioned: it is not the forum subject, if you want you can write to my e-mail address so we wont bore others.

3. About the main issue: A lot of British people have traumatic memories about it, I was even read it once in Israeli weakened news paper were someone told about how traumatic it was.
After you mentioned that it was really beneficial to the class I must ask you if you agree with unfairness for small numbers even with a price of real trauma in order to give others better opportunity to learn.
About my self: I was treated a lot of times unfairly which I can forgive now, mainly because CP wasnt involved.
I couldnt imagine CP as described in other posts here that I could forgive even 40 years later.
For example: I red here about female teacher that probably never had the cane on the receiving end and therefore was very liberally gave it to boys in her mixed class while the girls giggled when a boy cried after he got the cane (it is also mentioned that she heat as hard as she could), I cant imagine my self meet this kind of teacher 15 years later and say hi to her especially if I got the caning when I wasnt the right person.

4. About American way: I gave my thoughts to him there and suggested something I mentioned that is maybe look a bit bizarre that be on the receiving end should be a part of a training for teacher involve and thats in order to prevent situations of too liberally use of CP.

The issue that marks out the tawse in Scotland from the cane or even the use of the belt in England is its sheer all pervasiveness as a punishment. Unlike the cane which became in many schools during the 70's and later confined to senior staff, and in best practice models , always given in private , the belt in Scotland was a very public public deterrent.

On a previous posting I quoted from my friend Lyn regarding her experiences in Scotland , and how some staff decried her efforts to be 'kind' to frightened students and deal with them 'humanely' outside class times. It was easy especially when you were a junior teacher to just get carried along , She has written on several blogs and postings about one of her encounters which shows the tawse as a blunt instrument ( again reproduced with her permission), and how new teachers often failed to asppreciate the consequences of a few mischosen words.....I have quoted the link to this to american Way , however I forgot this link quoted is to a closed archieve, so for those who cannot access it here is the appropriate extract.

"One Friday I was teaching my subject (History) to the top stream of
14/15 year olds. they were unusually restless(perhaps wanting the
weekend to 'hurry up!) and I kept calling for order. At one point the
restlessness seemed to peak and , after rebuking and giving lines two
girls and a boy for 'messing around' I announced that any further
interruptions and the individual would be sorry as he/she would get ' a
full dose' of the belt. Most of you will probably know that in Scotland
we used a two or three tailed tawse on the hands.

Well at first there was silence , but then one boy Robert turned and
spoke to his neighbour. In the time I had taught in the School Robbie
had never been rebuked by me , got lines or anything. He was top of this
class by a mile, and doubtless set for a very bright academic future.
Not only that but he lived next door but one to me, and we were really
quite friendly. I knew some of the men on staff if anything saw him as a
bit of a 'wimp' - never getting into scrapes or fights, and generally
abiding by the rules. I tried to ignore him , but he continued to
talk. ~~Eventually I moved and stood in front of him . He looked up
.....I invited him out to the front.

The class went silent. I looked at Robbie whose face I can still see
today. He was petrified. Obviously he had never had the belt before, and
now as a fairly senior student he was to be introduced to it not with
the usual two, but , as I had promised, a full dose , six. I wished the
earth could have swallowed me up. I had absolutely no wish to punish him
, and I really knew that a warning would have ensured no repetition.
Nonetheless, I had set the agenda and not to follow through would be
seen as favouritism and weakness by the others . I told him to present
his hands, and whilst pulling his sweater arms over his wrists for
safety, and adjusting the height of his hands to my satisfaction I
did mouth to him 'try to be brave' I raised the tawse over my shoulder
and then....

Well he took the beating very well to my surprise, the only problem was
that when I told him to change hands he couldn't. He did try, but seemed
rooted to the spot. Instead of shouting at him , as many would have
done, I was a little merciful and swapped his hands for him. The most
difficult thing with taking a tawsing is the moment when you are asked
to swap hands. to proffer the unpunished hand , when the other is
burning with terrific pain, is difficult. Some practitioners say this is
the essential discipline of the punishment - if so I plead guilty to
often helping my better students this way.

After the punishment the bell came quickly. On his way out I did have a
private word with Robbie, and asked to check his hands were OK- they
were very red, but unmarked. I told him he should be proud of the way he
had taken the punishment, because I knew he wasn't a 'hard guy'. I could
see he was desperately trying to hold back tears, and my intervention
didn't help; so I let him go. He was a brave lad Later that evening I saw him
wandering slowly and unhappily past my garden wall. I thought he might want to talk
so I went over to him.

First he apologised profusely for 'acting up' in class. I told him it
wasn't necessary, it was done with. Nevertheless, I really appreciated
his apology. But I did take the chance to say that of course he must
realize that I had to treat everyone alike, and could have no favourites,
and show no weakness. He said he realised that but hoped equally I knew he
had tried to take the belt well so as not to embarrass me. He had never had it before
and found it very difficult not to cry out and make
a fuss. I said he had done really well, and whilst I knew how much it
must have hurt, I truly believed we would never have to go through it
again , and he agreed "

Often people think the belt was a 'kind' option , as I say nothing could be further from the truth. Yes it was safe,if administred correctly, and the sting transitory but could be very intense. Moreover the humiliation of the public ritual was one of its less attractive features. It was interesting that when she used to defer any punishment until she could see the child privately, which she would out of compassion where they seemed particularly weak or terrified, certain staff members if they heard , regularly berated her for 'breaking tradition'. Was tradition more important than the dignity of the child? Some older classes , particularly if a 'good' studnet 'sinned' for the first time...became , she said like a mini public execution, the tough guys enjoying the circus, and whilst she supported moderate cp (or she wouldn't have dreamed of teaching in Scotland)....this wasn't her view of teaching.

In Scotland it seems group norms and necessities of control dominated the individual needs of the student , so the system became ' automatic retribution' and that really is no justice at all...........

Hi Dov. First things first. You say:

I am a bit concerned about commas; dots and apostrophes disappear after I copy the post to the web.

This is a known problem I'm afraid. It is covered in our 'Computing Corner' thread here starting with the post on May 7 2009 at 6:01 PM and going on from there.

Briefly, you say that you 'copy the post'. I take it to mean that you prepare it in a word processor, possibly Microsoft Word or similar. If you type something like:

'a quotation' or "another quotation" or Fred's house

in Word the quotion marks and apostrophe will be replaced with special opening and closing single or double quotation marks and a special apostrophe (the closing single quote). They are curly and have an up/down appearance. These will still appear when you copy/paste your text into the 'Message Text' box in the posting form, but as soon as you press the 'Respond' key the Network54 software will strip them out. Nobody here knows why!

The answer, as given by our eminent contributor Alan Turing in the Computing Corner thread, is to press the 'Undo' button (the one with the curly backward pointing arrow) immediately you type one of these characters in Word. Alternatively do a manual edit once you have pasted the text into the posting form.

Thank you for the offer to correspond on the political aspects. I'll maybe take you up on it later. As regards your statement that 'the main reason for the use of this word was my poor English', your English is fine. It is certainly considerably better than my Hebrew or Arabic!

You say:

After you mentioned that it was really beneficial to the class I must ask you if you agree with unfairness for small numbers even with a price of real trauma in order to give others better opportunity to learn.

The answer, with a few reservations, is 'yes'. I come of a generation where 'the greater good of the greater number' is still mostly an acceptable concept. This idea isn't of course very acceptable to younger people in the UK, where the 'me first' view of the world is much more common.

You also say:

I couldnt imagine CP as described in other posts here that I could forgive even 40 years later.

You need to be a little wary. Not every post in this estimable Forum is absolutely true, and some of them are complete fiction. For instance you will find posts in this thread from someone called 'soooze'. Soooze was a fictional character invented by one of my eminent fellow contributors to exploit my well known interest in young ladies who'd been caned. The second time he'd done that too! As you'll see from my post at 02:30 on 4 January 2009 above, I was always a little bit suspicious of Soooze! I don't know the source of your reference to the

female teacher that probably never had the cane on the receiving end and therefore was very liberally gave it to boys in her mixed class while the girls giggled when a boy cried after he got the cane (it is also mentioned that she heat as hard as she could)

so I won't comment specifically on that post.

However it was certainly not uncommon at one time in the UK for boys (or girls) to be punished in front of a mixed class, and there was sometimes a keen interest in the proceedings by other children. In Infant school aged about 7 I was smacked in front of a class of older children, some of whom certainly found it amusing. You'll find an (extremely long) account at 08:14 on 9 January 2009 in the The embarrassment factor thread.

As noted in the post, the incident made a big impression on me and made me determined to avoid any more school punishments if possible, but it certainly hasn't ruined my life and I haven't felt any lasting bitterness towards the teacher who punished me or my own class teacher who followed up on the punishment. By modern standards that punishment would probably be considered undeserved - all I'd done was speak to another child! However then it was against the rules, and in those days if you broke the rules, however trivial, you sometimes got punished, that was life!

I did meet the teacher who punished me again some years later. She turned out to be the aunt of a boy I made friends with. She didn't remember me and I didn't remind her. We got along fine!

Hi Another_Lurker & Prof.n
I red whet Prof.n wrote and really liked the story about Robert.
As someone who never gets a real CP (any kind of), I'll never say I support it but I can say that in a world where all the teachers are like Prof.n I have no opinion about it.
The problem is that teachers are not equal and some of them sometimes are even not very smart.
Now if a teacher gets an authority to decide (and sometimes administer immediately in the class, like court, Jury and executioner) on CP he / she shouldn't be blamed later for a wrong decision even if it was totally unfair.
As Another_Lurker mentioned for the good of the whole class it is acceptable that few students will be treated unfairly and even traumatically and also said that younger people won't accept it because in nowadays "me" is first.
For that I want to reply with a statement of the Israeli (guess also British) justice system: "Better have ten criminals outside prison then one innocent inside".
Of course the main society will have a great benefit (for a short term)if the majority of the criminals will be in jail with some innocent people as well (suffering for the majority) but for the long term I dont think so.
It will be just the same in schools I can promises you: end of the day the whole system will suffer if the CP will be back with all its unfairness.
About the "first me" issue: I guess for most of the people who will agree with me it is not "me (or my children)" issue but they care for the weaker children that will suffer.

Another_Lurker, thank you very much for the very interesting link about the gallows, I was almost cry when I red it (even I was familiar with the main part of it).