A letter to the 44th President of United States from teachers who paddle. I don't suspect they'll be receiving a response.

Dear President Barak Obama:

The authors and contributors of this blog would like to congraulate you on becoming our 44th President and we wish you and your family the best as ALL of us pull together to face the many problems that confront our nation and the world. The problems are many- but as a nation, we have dealt with worse and prevailed. As we confront crises at home and abroad, there will be many voices calling for many different changes- some good and others not.

The purpose of this letter is to point out the extremism of the anti- corporal punishment movement. We, the writers of teacherswhopaddle weblog, do not know where you stand on this issue but it is important that you know what others are saying who wish to steer your educational policies during your term in office. As teachers, we are committed to improving our schools because if our students succeed, then our nation will succeed as well. But there are some who will pull your education reforms into a dead end and we hope you will consider what these people are saying.

1) There is a web site that compares professional educators, who use paddles in school discipline, to prostitutes and porn stars! (http://nospank.net) In fact, the main agitator, Jordan Riak, considers the aforementioned educators BELOW that of prostitutes and porn stars. Regardless of your personal feelings on the issue, any comparison like this should disqualify the individual or group from any contribution to the education reform agenda.

2) The non-profit organization Parents and Teachers Against Violence in Education (P.T.A.V.E.) compares the administration of a paddling in school discipline to that of the criminal act of RAPE! It probably did not occur to P.T.A.V.E. that rape is one of the worst crimes a person can commit against another person. On the other hand, a paddling may be initially traumatic but that is only temporary while victims of rape are devastated for life. No group that equates the two should ever have any imput on education reform.

3) Under the site heading Project No Spank,another false coupling is made: Paddling and LYNCHING! As our first African-American president, this should disturb you as much as it does us. We believe that the U.S. has come too far to let self-styled hate messengers define an issue like corporal punishment in such a manner. Just think of all those who lost their lives at the hands of racial haters! No person, organization, or group that connects paddling in school discipline with the worst crimes in our nations history should ever be given a forum to advocate anything- much less education reform.

Those three items are the worst of the anti-c.p. venom but if those zealots were to recant and publicly apologize to teachers, rape victims, and the families of lynching victims, we at TWP would accept their place in the debate on our nations schools.

A quick straw-poll of the hedgefund managers and other pond life who have screwed the world economy might be interesting.

I bet over half were paddled at school!


Steve M

Like their banks/institutions, they need a damn good flogging!

I didnt know that Corpun already knew about this site. Colin Farrell wrote: Teachers Who Paddle is a website in the form of a blog by a group of elementary school teachers in the south who defend their use of corporal punishment. Curiously, however, they do not favor the use of CP at secondary level. (Pretty much the opposite way round to my own views, as it happens).

I have great admiration for Mr. Farrell but I agree with the teachers. They make a very reasonable case against CP on the secondary school level. They didnt mention this remote possibility; it would technically be legal for a first year teacher to paddle a senior. Wouldnt extremists like Jordan Riak of nospank or Jeff Charles of nopaddle have a field day on that one? Judging by their websites Riak is a sincere crusader but there is a screw loose in Charles. The teachers who paddle won't get the headlines but will have the satifaction of knowing they stood up for something they believed was for their students. They don't hit too often and they don't hit too hard but often and hard enough to make the classroom a place for learning. BTW President Clinton was from Arkansas and he was paddled. A lot good it did him! Hillary went to a CP free schools. A lot good it would do her!

http://www.nospank.net/endcp.htm

http://www.usnews.com/blogs/on-education/2008/8/21/paddlings-widespread-in-south-study-says.html

Considering that most paddling ( and state executions ) are carried out on coloured folk I can imagine that there will be some changes with de new boss in charge.

President Obama taught constitutional law at the University of Chicago. Those who had him in class classified him as a federalist so he'll side with states' rights. Unless there is a sea change in the Supreme Court, the 1977 Ingraham vs Wright decision to leave it up to the states will not be abrogated. America has a short history so 1973 Roe v Wade is considered a historic precedent as if it were written in stone. This video below shows how desperate the members of the anti-CP lobby are.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pgA-n59nqUE

The same old same old from the anti corporal punishment zealots. Bill Clinton's daughter Chelsea and now Obama's girls Sasha and Malia are fair game for their crusade. In 1997 there was no youtube so this appeal was made to none other than a former Governor of Arkansas. They take few isolated paddling incidences and send that image through the world. Incredible. One of Clinton's staunchest allies, Congressman Barney Frank, took President Clinton to task by saying that he might be able to get away with lying in the Arkansas Middle School Principal Office but not to a special prosecutor. I guess he didn't live in Booneville and have to deal with that principal. President Obama spent most of his school years in Hawaii where corporal punishment was permitted until 1973 where he would have been subject to corporal punishment only in his early years of schooling.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pgA-n59nqUE

http://www.nospank.net/advice.htm

It seems to me Obama spent his early years in Jakarta not HI. Then when he did return to HI he attended an elite private school. I don't know what their CP policy was but I would assume rich people did not want their kids beaten with a piece of wood. Or anything else for that matter.

Hi Bob T. You say:

I would assume rich people did not want their kids beaten with a piece of wood. Or anything else for that matter.

That may well be the case in the US, of which you have considerable knowledge and I have virtually none.

However, it certainly isn't a universal opinion. Wealthy people in the UK were very happy to spend considerable sums in school fees to send their sons to the major Public Schools where beating by both staff and prefects was common. Further, school corporal punishment in the UK carried on in non-state schools charging fees (and for the most part patronised by those with the spare cash to pay those fees) long after it was abolished in the state free education sector.

The UK is not alone in this. I won't go into details at the risk of re-opening old wounds, but a teacher who has figured prominently in this estimable Forum recently teaches at a school where the majority of the parents pay substantial fees to secure places for their sons.

Yes, I am aware of what happened in UK schools thanks to this esteemed forum. I think most private schools here have abandoned the practice with the exception of some Christian schools.

I really don't know about Obama's school back in the 1970s. I just assume they wouldn't be using it in one of the best schools in the US.

BOB T

In the interests of balance, I should add there are those of us on this forum who feel a little differently re the distinguished contributor refered to by Another_Lurker.

Let's just say there's some chance of his alleged educational life being reality, regardless of the fact that it's in Australia, which a few of us know a little about.

Roughly as much chance as Barack Obama being the love-child of Elvis Presley and Marilyn Munro, but it could be true!


Steve M

Mr Steve M, you're not supposed to let that out! One of our agents will be interviewing you in due course.

A L The writer has spent much time this last few months to establish the credentials of a so called honary member of this site. The conclusion is looking to be 98% fraud I am pleased to say.

Hi Mimi. I await your findings with interest. I've always said if I was wrong I'd put my hand up and admit it. I'm sad to have found myself at odds with yourself and Steve on the issue, but these things happen even in the best regulated societies such as this estimable Forum!

For a start if it helps there is absolutely nobody over the age of 65 employed in a full time position in the area.
There is absolutely nobody with those qualifications teaching in that area.
These things are relatively easy to check up on if you have access to the information, which I have via a friend in Oz who is a teacher and union official!
Despite exhaustive enquiries via another friend who has aproached all the schools available that meet the criteria there are none offering such a liberal attitude to CP. There is only one "remedial" type school that admits to using it.
I am relieved to say that the whole thing appears to be one big fantasy.

Hi Mimi. As always, I'll go down fighting!

• Union Official? I think Doctor Dominum has already told us that he isn't in a union. I don't think this is uncommon for private schools worldwide.
  
  
• Nobody teaching over 65? I think the only way that could be determined for sure would be via what I would think are confidential government records for welfare contributions, tax etc.
  
  
• Approached all the schools? Doctor Dominum has said, and it seems to make sense to me, that the delicate position with the State Government regarding CP means that this isn't publicised. I'm sure you know just what a closed society a school can be, I certainly do, even a day school, and this is partly a boarding school. A recent poster in one of the threads here gave a link to dozens of schools, saying he was going to contact them all. If Doctor Dominum is real, I don't believe the most likely school was even on that list.

Sorry to remain a little sceptical. We shall though, I think, have some certain determination at the end of the year in the absence of anything prior to that.

There are no clandestine secret schools they are all under government authourity and are all subject to public scrutiny.
I am not saying that there may not be perfectly legal CP being carried out.
What I am saying is that a certain person is not in a position to be doing it.
You have to realise that Victoria is a small place in relation to say even the London area.
There really are very few schools that match the logistics outlined by this fraudulant person.
I am afraid he has been hoisted on his own petard by way of the information he has given himself.

Once again, mimi proves himself a man not to be taken seriously.

He writes:

You have to realise that Victoria is a small place in relation to say even the London area.

What do you mean by that statement.
Do you know the amount of schools and teachers in London.
Do you know the amount of schools and teachers in Victoria.
For your homework find out.
One more thing, the nonce said he was geographically near a certain school that has been mentioned in dispatches on this forum.
It makes it so easy to work it all out from a radius from that point.
Duh laughing boy you is avin a larf......

I've only just taken the time to look at this thread - not having a great deal of interest in President Obama (duci novo, simili ducis seneci) and I am somewhat hesitant to reply to it now. But as a proud Victorian, I just can't let this pass. More importantly, a great many problems seem to develop sometimes because those outside Australia often have some rather odd ideas about my country.

Comparing Victoria and London is to start with, a bit like comparing apples and oranges - Victoria is a state, London is a city. A comparison between Melbourne and London makes more sense in my view, but I'll start with a brief comparison of London and Victoria to respond to the suggestion that 'a small place in relation to say even the London area'.

What is meant by the London area? I'm going to assume we're talking about the Greater London Urban Area. This has an estimated population of 8.5 million. The state of Victoria has an estimated population of 5.2 million. Yes, Victoria is less populous than the London area, but I think it's something of an exageration to describe it as 'small' by comparison.



might illustrate the point. The blue area represents the population of Victoria overlaid on a gold square representing the population of London. London clearly has more people but not by an immense margin.

On the other hand, Victoria is, in physical size, immensely larger than London.



Once again the blue square represents Victoria, the gold London - it illustrates the 'apples and organges' nature of the comparison. Comparing a state to a city. A far better comparison is Melbourne to London.

In terms of population, the Greater London Urban Area has a population as mentioned of about 8.5 million. Greater Melbourne, on the other hand has a population of about 3.8 million. London has more than twice as many people, which is significant, but again describing Melbourne as small in comparison to London seems to me to be going a bit far.



Put it another way - while Melbourne is certainly less populous than London, it is more populous than any other urban area in the United Kingdom. 3.8 million as compared to 2.2 million for both Birmingham and Manchester. When we look at Melbourne, we are talking about a city more populous than any in the UK except London. If Melbourne was in Europe, it would be the seventh most populous city on the entire continent (about the same size as Barcelona - larger than Athens, Berlin or Rome.) Many Europeans seem to have this view of Australia as fairly underpopulated - when it comes to the continent as a whole, that is absolutely true. But most of the population is contained within a fairly small number of fairly large cities.

How many schools are there in London as compared to schools in Melbourne? Interesting question and one I can't answer with absolute certitude. But after a bit of investigation, it looks like there are approximately 430 secondary schools in the Greater London area. There are about 330 within Greater Melbourne. That's not a massive difference.

I don't recall ever saying any school mentioned on this forum was geographically near my school, but it's certainly not impossible I have said that. But the final point I'd make is that what Australian's mean when they talk about something being nearby doesn't necessarily bear that much resemblance to what somebody in England is likely to mean. Melbourne is a much more spread out city than London. Once again, to illustrate the point:



The gold square indicates the land area of Greater London. The blue square indicates the land area of Greater Melbourne.

When I go to Britain, this difference often trips me up. I'm asked where I'm going and I say, for example, London, and when I'm asked for more details I get told: "But that's not London." It's a difference of scale - once again, let me illustrate.

Like London, Melbourne has a central area that represents the 'true city' - an area about a square mile in size that is, historically speaking, the 'city' itself. I'm going to use these as point locations to illustrate the difference in scale of area between the two cities. To be precise, I am going to use the Guildhall as a centrepoint for London, and the Melbourne General Post Office as a centrepoint for Melbourne.

If I travelled 30kms roughly southwest of the centre of London, I might find myself in Weybridge in Surrey. If I travelled 30 kms roughly southwest of the centre of Melbourne, I might find myself in Werribee - which is still a suburb of Melbourne.

40 kms west of central London - Burnham, Buckinghamshire. 40 kms west of central Melbourne - Melton, a suburb of Melbourne.

35 kms east of Central London - Corringham, Essex. 35 kms east of central Melbourne - Belgrave. Still a suburb.

Melbourne is a very spread out city - and what we mean by geographically near probably encompasses a much wider area than Brits would consider geographically near. Today is 'Head of the River' - when the elite schools of Melbourne and Geelong gather for their boat race. That's 140 km from central Melbourne. 180 kms from central Geelong. That's just about regarded as being a 'fair distance' away.

I couldn't resist so pardon my off topic, Barack Obama just gave an ipod to the Queen with the tunes, among others, My Fair Lady and for Gerald Ford's visit, during his brief tenure, it was the song The Lady is a Tramp that made the news. John Paul II invited his two favorite musical artists BB King, who gave him his guitar and Bob Dylan, alas, he didn't accept so he didn't give him his harmonica, mores the pity, the Vatican could have opened its own Hard Rock Cafe. Benedict XVI has been seen sporting an ipod but I'm pretty sure he's grooving to Mozart.

First Lady Michelle Obama and her brother were spanked by First Granny Marian Robinson growing up, first link, who is now helping to raise Sasha and Malia in the White House. In an interview Michelles mother said she wont be spanking them in the White House; check the second link. You spoil your grandchildren and thats just the way it is and I think should be. Its nice to see intergenerational parenting bringing a sense of normalcy to the First Family.

http://justjared.buzznet.com/2009/04/07/michelle-obama-essence-magazine-may-2009/


There were many times when we were in the midst of getting spanked or disciplined and she would start cracking up.

http://www.mercurynews.com/lifestyle/ci_11854861


There is no spanking but lots of discussion about actions and consequences.

TWP mentioned that Paula Flowe and Barack Obama don't have as much in common than Paula would like. That is remarkable when one realizes that approximately the latest Obama approval rate is 90% Black, 60% Latino and 40% White. Corporal punishment is more frequent in Blacks and Latinos home according to studies. As a group they are not among the biggest advocates for the ban in spite of the stats shown in the OCR neumbers I frequently quote from. The number of single parents household (generally meaning without fathers) are higher in these two groups so the membrane (behavioral expectations) are more problematic and has little to do with the reason why students of color are paddled from my perspective. In practically an all white Catholic school those factors were critical and you didn't know their family situation until you looked back as an adult. What kid really knows anything about family dynamics while they are immersed in their own? Dr Dominum's statement that girls are more likely to say the teacher doesn't like me is high than boys and that is why reassurance that is not the case IMHO is just as crucial when a White paddles someone other than his or her own color. prof n rightly applauded Renee's assurance that she gave Miranda which is something that both genders need to hear but if what Dr Dominum says is true than even more so for a girl.

Hi Aw,

I'll real with the racial thing in a much more thought out post probably tomorrow on the TWP thread.

In the meantime a couple of thoughts/comments on other things. You say

The number of single parents household (generally meaning without fathers) are higher in these two groups so the membrane (behavioral expectations) are more problematic and has little to do with the reason why students of color are paddled from my perspective.

My school was almost universally WASP. However we did have a number of one parent families like mine. In those days when divorce was less common, but medical treatment not so advanced , about 50/50 divorced ; orphaned/fatherless . I found out when exploring the issue of red lists, that I was on the list for two 'automatic' reasons. firstly as an alpha student, but secondly because I was from a one parent family. Whilst the school had a public face which presented the idea that is was a benign patriarchy, privately it red listed all the boys who were fatherless, on the basis that caning them might have the effect of causing complaints, and , moreover, might lead to withdrawals from the school. .

Whilst there was sociological evidence at that time that mothers punished physically less than fathers, and that on the whole women were less convinced by arguments for corporal punishment than men, it was not the case that there was any local or national data to support the more radical stance taken by the school. a case of the governing body agreeing to pocketbook over mind?

As every parent signed a perfectly clear statement on corporal punishment on enrolment, Jackie could see no reason why this policy had emerged, except it had been pushed by STOPP members.

In fact in Afro Caribbean families studies have shown that given the strong matriarchal structure of the family unit ( harking back to African matriarchy?), women take a more active role in the physical punishment of children than in Eurasian households.


Dr Dominum's statement that girls are more likely to say the teacher doesn't like me is high than boys and that is why reassurance that is not the case IMHO is just as crucial when a White paddles someone other than his or her own color. prof n rightly applauded Renee's assurance that she gave Miranda which is something that both genders need to hear but if what Dr Dominum says is true than even more so for a girl.


Couldn't agree more strongly. there needs to always be a link , and a direct feedback to preserve the self worth of the student. Punishment in very few ( hopeless) cases is an end in itself. The student, otherwise, needs to know not only how to avoid getting into this position again, but to feel supported and valued ,by the institution and the person administering correction. The old 'get out and don't come back'......has nothing to commend it in either modern psychology or sociology.This is one reason I bend towards cp over mental punishment, because of the quick application and the short time scale to reconnecting the student both as personally valued, and also as reconnected into the society.

Many of the studies of girls cp took place whilst rejection and culpability were still watchwords in discipline. in today's environment , and with our increased knowledge of the social context of psychology we should do better, and I personally believe the results would show great improvement.