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Teachers Who Paddle

January 26 2009 at 1:00 PM
American Way 

 
I mentioned under another thread that I had hoped Corpun would pick up on this site. They did already. These young elementary school teachers paddle their students and attests to its effectiveness. Their testimonials should give other countries reasons to reconsider. I share their distain for those anti-corporal punishment zealots who impugn their motives and promote their agenda with their nonsensical arguments. If they phase out the use of CP on the secondary school level it would be fair to the students and not give their opponents fodder. Theyre close enough in age to high school students and on the front lines enough that their reasoned arguments should be listened to. Heres their link they started in August with frequent updates.

teacherswhopaddle.wordpress.com

 
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American Way

School Paddle Auction

January 29 2009, 1:03 PM 

Shown at 1:45 into video is the paddle. The beginning of each school year a line is carved into the paddle. Often the paddles are made by the vocational high school students in their wood shop class. A notches indicate the age of the paddle. I wonder how many teachers will bid on that paddle. N.B. REnee welcomes imput from this estimable Forum. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=59oIyIgCs70&fmt=18

IMPLEMENTS

This section deals with the actual implements used in corporal punishment in school. The names of various paddles are from our links with Rebfs Paddles or Officeplayground. These are internet sites whose paddles we rated from HIGHLY INAPPROPRIATE to HIGHLY RECOMMENDED. Our criteria was based on the following:LENGTH, WIDTH,THICKNESS, and IMPACT.


COACH: This is by far the largest paddle we could find on the internet as the best example of the worst possible paddle one could use. This monster comes very close to the one mentioned by Ted Gup in his story in Salon.com a few years ago. The measurements are 27x 4x 1/2 and we at TWP consider this HIGHLY INAPPROPRIATE for corporal punishment at any level. Finally, the IMPACT is so severe and bruising that any educator that contemplates using it should be stopped if other educators want the general corporal punishment policy to be retained. (www.reb-online.com/coach.htm)

18: This paddle, the glittle brother of Coachh is not much better and worst of all, is the most common paddle type used in schools today. The measurements are 18x3 1/2 x 1/2 and we at TWP believe that any paddle close to this size is HIGHLY INAPPROPRIATE. Like gCoach,h the IMPACT of this paddle is too severe and bruising. Also, using this paddle opens educators up to the accusation of abuse. (www.reb-online.com/18.htm)

SCHOOL HOUSE: The idiot who invented this montrosity had to have been a sadistic sicko- certainly not a teacher! Its measurements are 25 1/2x 2 1/2 x 1/2 and because of that, TWPfs grade is HIGHLY INAPPROPRIATE. The IMPACT is actually worse, not because of the holes, but rather the narrowness which would leave a horizontial bruise gstripeh across the buttocks. That and the holes are good only for wrecking careers and lawsuits. (www.reb-online.com/schoolhouse.htm)

TAKE ALONG: This strangely named paddle is o.k. if used carefully and applied to older elementary children such as 5th or 6th grade. The measurements are 11x 4x 1/2 and because of its thickness being 1/2, TWPfs assessment is MODERATE and the decision should be left to the individual educator. The IMPACT will be some redness but if the number of swats is minimized (no more than 3), there should be little residual effects other than a bit of soreness for about an hour.(www.reb-online.com/takealong.htm)

THIN: This paddle is the favorite of the contributors to this blog who all teach 3rd to 5th grade. The measurements are 13 1/2 gx3 1/2x 1/4 and the best quality of this paddle is that it is indeed thin! While the IMPACT will certainly leave a sharp sting, no bruising will occur except perhaps to the ego. TWPfs only wish is that the THIN was a little wider instead of 3 1/2 g. Still, the thin gets TWPfs HIGHLY RECOMMENDED ranking.(www.reb-online.com/thin.htm)

PADDLEBALL: The only paddle not made by rebfs paddles, we had to really search for this one. A teacher friend of ours who teaches preK showed us her little paddle but could not tell where it came from since she got it from another teacher who left for a position out of state. This cute paddle is meant only for prek to 2nd grade and, because of the light and thin balsa wood, should be double or triple layered to prevent breaking. Even then, the IMPACT will be only a lite sting with no chance of bruising if used with just one or two pops.The measurements are 8x5x1/5 and the single layer thickness is an estimate. TWPfs rating is HIGHLY RECOMMENDED and who knows- maybe a single taste of this paddle will deter the little terrors from behaving badly in school later!

 
 
American Way

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

January 29 2009, 6:52 PM 

Dear Teachers Who Paddle: You mentioned in a previous post that the way CP has been carried out in other countries is very different from anything done in the States. Canada, England and Scotland should not have been lumped into that category. Implements like the strap differed in length, thickness and suppleness of leather. The Lochgelly tawse bore marks like M/H/XH on its handle and there were nursery, junior and senior canes. I differ with your belief that the strength and gender of the secondary school teacher versus the elementary school should really matter. One should consider whether it is administered judiciously, moderately and sparingly. Meek, little nuns have been known to be quite savage in meting out CP in Catholic Schools! After a child reaches the age when he or she can legally opt out of school they should be exempted. Principal Steve Halter paddling 17 year old Nancy of Booneville should never had been filmed. Did you notice how the CP critics used this atypical paddling to foster their agenda? Freshman and sophomore recidivism rate with suspension pales in comparison to corporal punishment in modifying behavior. If it isnt broken why fix it? Behavioral issues should not keep a child from a classroom. Students should not be given a choice between ISS or paddling; the choice that really mattered was whether they follow the rules; teachers should know what works best for their students. I am delighted you never quoted Proverbs but use a common sense approach to classroom discipline. This savage beating below shouldnt be lumped together with CP used in the States today or yesterday in Canada or in the British Isles. It may be in the interest of fairness that you consider making this distinction in future postings. BTW, I found the expression estimable Forum most appropriate and I didnt know that it was attributable to a single individual. Ill try not to forget to capitalize f. My apologies and kind regards.

http://www.corpun.com/vidkrs01.htm

 
 
American Way

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

February 18 2009, 12:58 AM 

I found something that might be worth sharing. Teachers Who Paddle welcomed comments and suggestions in a January post here and wrote about the nice things said here in their February blog. I believe they are for real. I know at least one reader here who doesn't. They're shopping for paddles this month! I added the bottom link because I believe this is the network 54 forum they must be referring to. Subscription manager. Always American Way.

Hello from teacherswhopaddle from Renee the editor. This is just an open invitation for your community to send to Jenny, Wendy, Michelle, and myself your comments and suggestions.

Looking forwards to hearing from y'all!


Renee



http://teacherswhopaddle.wordpress.com

MEMO TO ALL: Check out Portland.indymedia.org and Network54.com -The former is an anti-c.p. forum whom we at TWP challenged and the latter is somewhat pro who had some nice things to say about what TWP is trying to do.


http://www.network54.com/Browse/Society/Education/Schools

 
 

Bob T

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

February 18 2009, 3:14 AM 

American Way; I don't even know where to begin. I can only assume that your school experience was exactly the opposite of mine. Either that or you are simply misguided or wrong headed.

If you honestly believe that the teachers and Principals who enthusiastically endorse the use of CP in schools have pure motives you are a babe in the woods.

I looked at a school handbook that you linked and it looked to me like it was authored by a child abusing sadist.

One thing I know for sure from my own personal experience is that the only teachers and Principals who use CP are the ones who LIKE USING IT.


I would debate the issue with you but you are about 3 years too late. I have already debated and won every argument put forth on this forum. I no longer care enough to bother with you.

The fact of the matter is that SCP is child abuse perpetrated by child abusers hiding behind the en loco parentis concept.

 
 
American Way

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

February 18 2009, 4:44 AM 

With 200,000 paddlings a year occurring in 21 states, albeit in fewer and fewer districts, it's a reasonable surmise that some teachers and principals paddle students because they like to but there are many and I dare say the overwhelming majority don't. I don't think hundreds of thousands, perhaps more, of parents and school board members would agree that all administer corporal punishment because they like to or they would not advocate for it to continue. As far as the links to student handbooks I would suggest that you take up that debate with Colin Farrell. I believe that some schools that have corporal punishment as an option in the handbook don't use it. The decision to employ that option on a school wide basis is up to the incumbent principal and at times is left up to the teacher on a case to case basis. Whether "teachers who paddle" blog is on the up and up is another matter all together. I suggest you take that up with them. They have written to this forum welcoming feedback. Maybe others may care to opine?

 
 
Alan Turing

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

February 18 2009, 7:06 AM 

Bob T:

One thing I know for sure from my own personal experience is that the only teachers and Principals who use CP are the ones who LIKE USING IT.

I think it's time for me to put my professional hat on here.

The world is full of people who know "for sure", "from their own personal experiences", plenty of things. As many of these things known for sure are mutually contradictory, these people can't all be right. The trouble is, one individual's personal experience might not be typical.

Here's an example. I've mentioned it a few times in this Forum, but it bears repeating.

Some people have expressed the view, quite forcibly, that girls were never caned in English schools. Now I happen to have met three women who mentioned, in the course of conversation, that they had been caned at school, and I have no reason to disbelieve them. (I've given the full details elsewhere, and if anyone's interested I'll provide a link.) So -- the assertion that girls were never caned must be wrong. In fact, I've also carried out some statistical calculations to suggest upper and lower bounds for the number.

But suppose I hadn't met these three women, or that the conversation hadn't actually wandered into that area? Then, "from my personal experience", I'd "know for sure" that girls had never been caned at school. But I'd have been wrong.

 
 
American Way

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

February 18 2009, 12:56 PM 

I happen not to agree with all the positions teachers who paddle have advocated but I commend them for balancing the space given to those who oppose their position. I wondered why they singled out this esteem Forum until I put "teacherswhopaddle" through a search engine and found that IMHO they were being treated unfairly as in this recent link from "itdawnedonme". However, I found it profitable to search those sites because it did in fact engender a posting by "batguano 101", admittedly a rather peculiar name, worth reading in the Implied Observer. I disagree with the four young women elementary school teachers about paddling in secondary schools. I would caution them to be more careful in recommending blogs. This is the kind of criticism they welcome not the ad hominem attacks they have been the subject of. I think they expected that response but not to that degree. I think comments like mine and batguano 101 are what the teachers are looking for and they may have come to the right place when they asked for feedback.

http://itdawnedonme.wordpress.com/2009/02/10/kids-in-school-getting-an-education-plus-a-beating/

http://impliedobserver.wordpress.com/2008/09/24/is-corporal-punishment-addictive/

 
 
Steve M

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

February 18 2009, 1:52 PM 

BOB T

Now you should know better!

Isn't this enshrined in your constitution?

The right of every citizen to bear arms?

All they want to do is adapt it slightly-the right of every citizen to bare bums!

Seriously, any teacher advertising for the right to paddle may or may not be a paedo, nonce or pervert.

What they most assuredly are is useless as a teacher, if they need that crutch to get things done. I had plenty of teachers whom even I respected at school-all had one thing in common;they never countenanced the use of corporal punishment or sending you to someone else for it either.

In other words, they were dedicated professionals, dedicated to teaching at least.


Steve M

 
 
American Way

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

February 18 2009, 2:57 PM 

Corporal punishment is like any disciplinary tool including detention and suspension that can be used or abused. Teachers should be given the tools to employ that they deem helpful. It shouldn't be assumed that "ALL" teachers who paddle are incompetent or act out of perverted lust or uncontrolled anger. The student codes of conduct are openly published and approved by elected boards on how these three principle disciplinary tool should be administered. Churchill said something about democracies that might be worth considering and Jefferson said something about free press that might be worth considering as well. Certain decisions are best left to the people and not unelected commissions. For what it is worth IMHO this happens to be one of them.

 
 
Alan Turing

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

February 18 2009, 4:25 PM 

Steve:

I had plenty of teachers whom even I respected at school

And so did I. The difference is that some of them used corporal punishment, and some didn't. (There was also one temporary PE teacher who used it too severely, but that has no bearing on the present argument.)

In fact, my recollection is that all the teachers in my primary school used corporal punishment, even one lovely man who clearly hated doing it, but felt that it was expected of him. It wasn't hard, one whack with the slipper for a nine-year-old, used perhaps three or four times in the whole year. (That's three or four times in total, not per child!)

The point, surely, is to do with expectation. That was the way things worked in those days. Indeed, a secondary school in the fifties or sixties which didn't use corporal punishment at all on boys was such a rarity that books would be written about it. (Anyone remember A S Neill's Summerhill School? Lots of links about it on Google.)

 
 
Steve M

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

February 18 2009, 4:40 PM 

Yes, it may have worked well then, but does it have any place in today's allegedly civilized societies?

The problem with letting the people decide is keeping the marketeers out of it-otherwise you gey Dubya or The Spice Girls!

Who said Communism was so bad??happy.gifhappy.gifwink.gif


Steve M

 
 
American Way

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

February 18 2009, 6:32 PM 

It might come as a surprise to some that the ACLU and Human Rights Watch use the race card in arguing their anti corporal punishment position but not to me. African American teachers in Mississippi and Latinos teachers in Texas preside in districts that have a pro corporal punishment position. The principle of subsidiarity results in the statistical skew toward minority students being paddle not racism. 47,000 in Texas and 7.5% of the student population of Mississippi and significantly less in the other 19 states are paddled. The numbers attest to it being used as a deterrent. It's interesting that 1n 2003 there were 22 states that permitted paddling and in 2009 there were 21 states. This is remarkable when the states that do not permit it have a disproportionate control over the media as witnessed by the space given to those who oppose corporal punishment. Their blog provides a welcome balance regardless of your views. The principle of subsidiarity applies to who, where, when and how or whether corporal punishment is administered so school districts decide. It's not an Athenian democracy nor is it mob rule. Monroe would be proud. Georgia is a state that permits corporal punishment and the four anonymous teachers are from this state who and are under the authority of a single school district. Some one asked this relevant question of them this month.


If your local school board was to consider dropping c.p., how would you state your objections to it?

This person must be a school board member.

First, as an employee of that board, I would NOT take a stand -directly anyway. Rather, the principals and teachers would probably meet with central office administrators to voice our concerns and questions about policy changes.

Second, the top brass (aka Chief Superintendent) would report to the board his and our misgivings about such a policy change -such as the probability of a higher number of suspensions. Think of the U.S. Army Generals advising the U.S. President on war strategy. In both cases, the elected leadership will make the final decision -as it should be.

 
 

Bob T

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

February 19 2009, 1:43 AM 

First of all I find it incredulous that American Way quotes Churchill to support a position on SCP. I think Churchill wrote about the brutality he suffered at the hands of his school Admins. and was not a proponent.

Second I think we should take a look at the demographic in those areas where SCP is strongly supported by parents in those school districts. I think I have seen some of the people who support having their children beaten at the hands of some teacher or principal who clearly does not love them. Here is a fair representation of those type of parents... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BaxECcTjCuw

 
 
American Way

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

February 19 2009, 11:39 AM 

More than twenty years later more than 20% of British teachers still agree with the 49.9% of the Parliament, not necessarily teachers in 1986, that corporal punishment should be permitted in school. You can look at this as half full or half empty but in any event more than one out of five teachers are not permitted to use a tool that they think is still of value after not being in use for over twenty years. I imagine some teachers were infants at the time of the ban. The United States school districts leave room for reevaluating as in the third link.

The four young (look at their graduation dates)teachers (however they may have voted) from teacherswhopaddle from Georgia don't sound like rednecks nor do they seem like brutes to me. Here are Twiggs County, Georgia results who reversed the ban presidential election (third link) results.

Twiggs County 53.0% Obama 2,402 votes to 46.0% McCain 2,087.


http://www.todayinhistory.de/index.php?what=thmanu&manu_id=1526&tag=22&monat=7&year=2035&dayisset=1=en

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/3123827/Teachers-Bring-back-the-cane-to-restore-order-in-schools.html

http://www.timesfreepress.com/news/2008/jul/23/georgia-corporal-punishment-thing-past-most-school/


 
 
American Way

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

February 19 2009, 9:54 PM 

A statistic worth noting from the USA. The pendulum will swing or the numbers will at least stabilize when reason prevails over the fear of litigation. The anti corporal punishment propaganda can hardly be characterized as rational.

Total students paddled
Year Number Percent1
1976 1,521,896 3.5
1978 1,438,317 3.4
1980 1,408,303 3.4
1984 1,332,317 3.3
1986 1,099,731 2.7
1988 898,370 2.2
1990 613,760 1.5
1992 555,531 1.3
1994 470,683 1.1
1997 457,754 1.0
1998 365,058 0.8
2000 342,038 0.7
2003 301,016 0.6
2004 272,028 0.6
2006 223,190 0.5

 
 
Steve M

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

February 19 2009, 10:17 PM 

Big question here, and sorry I've missed the answer already if you've previously mentioned it!!

How many states actually permit paddling?

And, sorry, 2nd question-is it permitted in parts of a state, or does a State legislature ban definitely apply state-wide?

Thanks


Steve M

 
 
American Way

20 States 2009

February 19 2009, 11:09 PM 

From Family Education Magazine: If you live in a state where the practice is allowed, how is it working? Do you want to see the practice continue? If you live in a state where such punishment is banned, would you support its re-introduction into the classroom?
Where the states stand on corporal punishment:
Alabama--Legal
Alaska--Illegal
Arizona--Legal
Arkansas--Legal
California--Illegal
Colorado--Legal
Connecticut--Illegal
Delaware--Illegal
District of Columbia--N/A
Florida--Legal
Georgia--Legal
Hawaii--Illegal
Idaho--Legal
Illinois--Illegal
Indiana--Legal
Iowa--Illegal
Kansas--Legal
Kentucky--Legal
Louisiana--Legal
Maine--Illegal
Maryland--Illegal
Massachusetts--Illegal
Michigan--Illegal
Minnesota--Illegal
Mississippi--Legal
Missouri--Legal Montana--Illegal
Nebraska--Illegal
Nevada--Illegal
New Hampshire--Illegal
New Jersey--Illegal
New Mexico--Legal
New York--Illegal
North Carolina--Legal
North Dakota--Illegal
Ohio--Illegal
Oklahoma--Legal
Oregon--Illegal
Pennsylvania--Illegal
Rhode Island--Illegal
South Carolina--Legal
South Dakota--Illegal
Tennessee--Legal
Texas--Legal
Utah--Illegal
Vermont--Illegal
Virginia--Illegal
Washington--Illegal
West Virginia--Illegal
Wisconsin--Illegal
Wyoming--Legal


Posted by Arrow2u
November 25, 2008 1:21 PM
NO ABUSE
First, let me say that I have been an educator for nearly 20 years. I've witnessed changes in schools, with teaching, testing, and students. Things have gotten worse! There's a great deal more to accomplish because of standardized testing and money. Not only has student attentiveness diminished over the years but so has their classroom behavior as well as their basic respect about themselves and toward their teachers/adults. This CAN BE TURNED around with the inclusion of corporal punishment as an option for teachers or principals. Perhaps there can be a designated trained person at the school that disseminates the punishment? Ironically, teachers are sent to training several times throughout any given school year. Well, couldn't teachers also be trained in how to apply the paddle appropriately with clear distinctions between punishment and abuse! If a teacher crosses this clear line then they should know that they too will face disciplinary action including 1) Warning and Immediate Retraining Hours; 2) Written Notification Included in Teacher's File and a Monetary Fine; 3) Teacher Unable to Apply Discipline; 4) If done then Immediate Job Dismissal. This policy and procedure would work for me, and it definitely will inspire a change in student attitude and attentiveness during lessons. It's a win-win for the school, for teachers, and for students who are there to actually learn in a structured, supportive, learning environment.
108 people found this comment helpful.


 
 
American Way

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

February 19 2009, 11:12 PM 

From a previous post.

Re: Southern USA CP regulations January 23 2009, 4:50 PM

I hope these observations, all to the best of my knowledge, may prove helpful for those unfamiliar with corporal punishment in the states.

Where corporal punishment is allowed has everything to do with achieving a consensus among the adults. Time passes so quickly that in a matter of years those schools employing corporal punishment become fewer and fewer. This makes it less likely that a parent can say we were paddle and it didn't do us any harm. Grandparents can still say that. Few larger urban schools still employ corporal punishment where some would say it would do the most good. As their population grows more cosmopolitan a regional custom becomes less acceptable and more likely to involve unwanted publicity and litigation. Public schools are more concern with order while Church related schools salvation so use a biblical rationale.

Every Catholic school in the USA bans corporal punishmnets. A policy formed by their bishops, perhaps to put their own house in order. Each district either permits or bans corporal punishment within its jurisdiction. A principal writes the rules and determine who administers the punishment. The district can be a county or a smaller entity. The state legislature and governor can, of course, ban, continue or reinstitute corporal punishment througout their state. They can choose to extend their authority even to private schools.


 
 
Steve M

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

February 20 2009, 3:19 PM 

Thanks for the info.

Rather worringly for me, as I suspected,the majority of paddling states also have the death penalty, to which I've fundamentally opposed since the age of 6.

And a lot of them are ex-slave States, too.

I don't wish to suggest such views should be ignored as the squawks of sub-human apes. But it is significant that lots of these states have a poor record on human rights, and you have to ask if states that still pass 60-75% of death sentences on blacks can handle paddling without keeping paedos and sadists completely out of things.



Steve M

 
 
American Way

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

February 20 2009, 6:18 PM 

Let me preface these remarks that I have strong opinions for CP and against capital punishment but thats beyond the scope of this posting. The issues are much more complicated than race and geography when it comes to punishment. A little bit of American history is involved so be patient. Before blacks even went to school canes and straps prevailed over paddles, paddles seemed to have drifted from the South to other areas of the country. In colonial classrooms instruments of corporal punishment like the strap and cane were the instruments of choice in the classroom. The paddle hearkens back to slavery to an extent when it was used in a harsh form by slave masters on women and children while the lash was used for sever offense mostly on men but sometimes women. Mothers, both black and white, slave or free, would take children over their knee to spank with their hand or hairbrush or whatever was handy and it worked its way from the home to the school and there were schoolmarms as teachers for young children who never went beyond reading, writing and arithmetic. Corporal punishment rates were much higher in the nineteenth and first half of the twentieth century before many African Americans went to school and certainly before integration. If you factor only race into CP and execution rates you begin to see things arent just black and white (forgive the pun). Family structure, religion and class are bringing a more nuanced perspective to both CP and capital punishment. In spite of how infrequently corporal punishment is administered 28% of Americans approve of corporal punishment and almost all are given a choice to exempt their child. Now that we have a multi racial/ethnic president and a first lady from an African American slavery heritage we might look beyond racism as an explanation for everything from corporal punishment to executions. President Obama has endorsed faith-based initiatives so there is little likelihood hell be an advocate for banning corporal punishment. Now for my hobby house, if there is a prejudice in the USA it is toward the undocumented and the documented Latino population. You can guess my heritage. Only Bill Richardson, of Latino heritage and Senator Chris Dodd spoke Spanish among all the early candidates and a modern foreign language is a college requirement and no one objects to their higher rates do they? These links may prove helpful.


http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0934191.html

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/race-death-row-inmates-executed-1976

State Number & percent hit

Alabama 33,716 4.5%
Arizona 16
Arkansas 22,314 4.7
Colorado 8
Florida 7,185 0.3
Georgia 18,249 1.1
Idaho 111 0.4
Indiana 577 0.5
Kansas 50 .01
Kentucky 2,209 0.3
Louisiana 11,080 1.7
Mississippi 38,131 7.5
Missouri 5,159 0.6
New Mexico 705 0.2
North Carolina 2,705 0.2
Ohio 672 0.04
Oklahoma 14,828 2.3
South Carolina 1,409 0.2
Tennessee 14,868 1.5
Texas 49,197 1.1

U.S. total 223,190 0.46


 
 

Bob T

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

February 20 2009, 8:35 PM 

To borrow a phrase from one of our Aussie contributors, I hope you don't expect us to swallow that load of codswallop.

Please link to your source. Your little history lesson has been selectively embellished and taken out of context to try and make your point.

I don't think schools started using paddles until the early twentieth century. From what I have read most nineteenth century teachers used hickory switches. Not paddles, straps, or canes.

I also take issue with your position on the demographic or typical supporter of SCP. I know for a fact that they are comprised mostly of extreme right wing Bible thumpers and ignorant rednecks. Obviously that doesn't include your sadistic child abusing teachers and admins. who hide behind the en loco parentis concept.

 
 
American Way

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

February 20 2009, 10:16 PM 

"I know for a fact that they are comprised mostly of extreme right wing Bible thumpers and ignorant rednecks." Is this based on any poll or from your vast experience? Do you mean by Bible thumpers and ignorant rednecks those who are less open minded than you?

 
 

Bob T

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

February 21 2009, 7:03 AM 

I currently live in a state where SCP is still legal. It has been discarded by most school dist. but a few still practice it. If you were to visit those areas you would see for yourself. In fact you should visit the areas where those schools are located that you linked to. The one in MO is located right in the heart of the Ozark Mountains. The TV show "The Beverly Hillbillies" was based on people from the Ozark Mountains. Those people were isolated for hundreds of years. They are in-bred and backward thinking people. It is only since Television and the Internet that have started to catch up with the rest of the country.

Arkansas is just below MO and is also in the Ozark Mountains. The school we talked about in the "Principals Office" show is in Arkansas. Any school district that you name that still uses SCP will be rural and southern. The southern states have always been behind the times because of the lack of transportation and communications. It just in the last 100 years that they have started to catch up.

I also have traveled quite extensively around this country. It is Bible thumpers and rednecks who still believe in the "spare the rod" mentality.

Corporal punishment is an antiquated idea whose time has past. There are some parts of the country who still cling to the old ways but I expect to see the practice slowly fade away.

 
 
American Way

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

February 21 2009, 12:16 PM 

Thank you Bob T. for your very insightful response. As a newcomer it is this kind of dialogue that has won me over to this esteem Forum. Our personal experiences, yours in Southern Illinois and Chicago area and mine in urban Northeastern Catholic schools and in similar time frames, may have colored our point of view, but now has given me a better appreciation of where you are coming from. My conservative and religious point of view differs from yours but you have shown me in your last posting that we can differ with each other while still respecting each other. You said you haven't lost a debate in three years but these kinds of differences aren't resolved by debating but by understanding each other better. Tolerance and not agreement is sometimes the best we can hope for in this pluralistic land we both call home and I wouldn't want it any other way than the American Way.

 
 
American Way

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

February 23 2009, 10:12 PM 

It might be worthwhile to read about Kelia Foster to breakdown certain stereotypes many may have about teachers who pale in the USA.

http://www.explorehoward.com/community/9061/teacher-tells-dr-phil-corporal-punishment-works/

http://www.corpun.com/uss00806.htm

 
 
American Way

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

February 28 2009, 2:01 PM 

The latest Corpun Update video shows, through hardly a statistical sample of students, that more students favor caning on the hands than teachers. The TV journalist did an excellent job bringing both sides on an issue that is rarely covered didn't she? The principal's view was perhaps tainted by an unfair and harsh first hand experience on the receiving end. It's been outlawed since 1986 at a time, where by his looks, he may had never been allowed to administer because of 50.1 % margin of the Parliament, badgered by "continental human rights advocates". I've heard those who say only animals should be beaten and as said before, by myself less articulately than others, a beating is not a paddling (presumably a caning as well), when administered fairly and resulting in reasonable pain in proportion to the offence and only as a last resort. There can be a case made by teachers and principals may not be doing this and that's why discipline matrices set by teachers and policies enforced by school districts are given such and emphasis in the south. Here is from mostly the so call enlightened States. I was appalled at the token bribes (doggie treats) What are we teaching kids today? The media reports studies that have shown marginal improvements in attendance, behavior, however, there has been considerable improvement with cash payments for good grades, a better idea that our stimulus package. OK, so I'm a Republican, so hang me. Let me pass this by you again, we are teaching our kids that if they show up for work they're paid and more so if they do more than what they are required to do, such as behave and study. Principals are fired routinely, and in more numbers than many could imagine, if they can't bring their kids up to snuff enough to pass standardized tests administered by the state. Whose incentive is greater the adults or the youth and who are the fools who are paying for this, other than me, the taxpayer. I'm sorry for going on and on and for my fingers and keyboard for pounding so hard.


 
 
American Way

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

February 28 2009, 5:11 PM 

Jenny made sense to me in the link below. Good luck finding her comment among those of children opposed to bringing back the cane, understandably so because they would be on the receiving end. Why would you call it a deterrent if it were any different? Jenny sees it as a deterrent from a teacher, well at least 20%, POV. I wonder how many teachers arent counted who may be reticent to say so for not being PC and how many teachers dont know the good it could do because it hasnt been administered at times as, IMHO, it shouldve been in the last 22 years, way outside the point of reference of many of the teachers? Too bad they didnt record how many teachers forty years older than Jenny are among that 20%. 22 years later they will be sounding like the young teachers who paddle if paddling goes the way of caning in the less than score of states that still permit it.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/cbbcnews/hi/newsid_7650000/newsid_7650200/7650210.stm

"I personally believe that caning should be brought back. It is not at all cruel! The badly behaved students in my school get off too lightly or don't get punished at all. They disrupt learning and continue to misbehave because they know they can and they know that there is no comeback. Caning worked before and it can work again!"

Jenny, 14, England

 
 
American Way

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

February 28 2009, 8:10 PM 

Here is a direct link without going through Corpun on BBC video on caning with 342 comments. It really is an issue that elicits strong opinions, isn't it?

 
 
Another_Lurker

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

February 28 2009, 9:12 PM 

American Way, did you omit the link from your post directly above this one, or were you referring to the link to CBBC in your earlier post?

You highlight a comment by Jenny, 14 in that earlier post. You should note that if Jenny has spent her short life in England she has absolutely no basis on which to comment on caning. School CP was abolished in all English schools before she started school, and by the time she was of an age where a parent might have considered wielding a cane doing so would have resulted in arrest and prosecution.

The validity or otherwise of school CP is not a matter for comment by children. It is as absurd as consulting criminals on the appropriate penalty for burglary. Mind you, the way things are going PC-wise in the UK, it won't be long before we start doing the latter! happy.gif

 
 
Steve M

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

February 28 2009, 11:23 PM 

A_L

Someone get Jenny 14 bending over for 4 strokes & then see how she feels about the efficacy of it!

Especially when the rest of the class post it via mobiles on Youtube or Facebook!!

Steve M

 
 
American Way

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

February 28 2009, 11:30 PM 

Check the missing link, just dont call me that. Children's views should be asked and considered but not taken too seriously as is true for some of all ages, on both sides of the equation in the missing link below.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/theoneshow/consumer/2008/10/24/bring-back-the-cane.html

There is a large spectrum of beliefs in the above link and even more so here. Welcome to America. There are many complex reasons to account for varying cultural norms in a population as diverse of over 300,000,000. There is PC issue on both sides of the pond, as they say. States are voting to making spanking in the home illegal, but usually to no avail. Can you imagine that being proposed in the South? School districts are banning or forgoing CP more and more, barring a change in the Supreme Court, it will stay on the books, however infrequently employed for years and years, especially with young teachers for its use. Northern reaction to the television paddling of high school students in Arkansas (Principal's Office) was total disbelief by many. Wasn't it interesting everyone talked about Nancy and not Shorty (who's he?) who suffered the same fate. There was something about a big guy whacking a little girls bum that didn't sit well with viewers, excuse the pun and enjoy Rebecca's humor.

"To be honest I'm 50/50 on caning because it would be good to bring it back because it will teach discipline to the people who are naughty but it would also be bad because say you did something by mistake - all you would get is a huge red mark!!!!"

Rebecca, 11, Manchester, England




























 
 
Another_Lurker

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

March 1 2009, 12:32 AM 

Hi Steve. I certainly wouldn't wish that on the young lady! I just think it is absurd to ask children who have absolutely no experience of school CP what they think of school CP or to quote their opinion whichever side of the line it falls on. Young Jenny or young Rebecca have about as much authority when pronouncing on that subject as I have when talking about pop music. And anyway everyone knows that post the 1960s all pop music has been rubbish! happy.gif

Hi American Way. Was your comment about 'just dont call me that' addressed to me? If so, would you please let me know what you object to. If I have exceeded the give and take normal in this estimable Forum I shall be only too happy to apologise.

A hint. Just before posting, while you are still in 'Edit' mode, place your cursor after the last character in your post and press the 'Delete' key until all the excess blank lines which sometimes accumulate at the end of posts are eliminated. This will avoid a large space under your post like the one above.

 
 
American Way

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

March 1 2009, 1:04 AM 

I did not take it in that way nor would I expect that from readers of this esteem Forum. It was an offhand remark I made on this forum, rooted in my childhood experience. I was called missing link by a school teacher (shame on her), maybe or maybe not in jest, nonetheless it had a harmful impact. My classmates (Irish Americans) used it as a racial slur comparing my color to a primate. This was before may Latinos arrived here. Totally off topic, but maybe you can help me. Those who strongly disliked White Anglo Saxon Protestants, WASPS, called them "jicks". I've heard of a "jicky accent" but I've always been curious of its origins. Please don't be offended.

 
 
Another_Lurker

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

March 1 2009, 2:12 AM 

Hi American Way. I'm happy to hear that I haven't offended you. Contrary to occasional malicious rumours on this estimable Forum I actually only derive about 50% of my pleasure in contributing from offending people! happy.gif

Re: jicks. Can't help you there I'm afraid, though I'm sure one of our more astute contributors will do so. All I'll say is that the first six pages thrown up by Googling 'jicks' seem devoted to a musical group called 'Stephen Malkmus & The Jicks'. 'Jicky' seems to be something to do with expensive? perfumes, so presumably isn't racially offensive.

 
 
Declan

Teachers Who Paddle

March 1 2009, 8:20 AM 

A_L

I disagree with your earlier comment that there is no validity in children having a say in whether corporal punishment should be revived. You say it is about as valid as asking burglars for views on sentencing. However not all children will be caned by any means, and the comparison should be whether we should ask the general public about sentencing , a few of which will be burglars but most not!

If a child such as Jenny was being bullied she might have a good reason to wish that there was a cane for her tormentors, and certainly a deterrent, for anyone to take up bullying.

Also, although Jenny will not have been caned she would I am sure have seen films such as Kes, in which there are good portrayals of caning. It really isn't difficult to imagine how painful a caning is.

Furthermore, the Government is obsessed about smoking. At my school this was the most frequent reason for a caning, for both boys and girls. Though some boys were caned regularly for this, most of us did not risk it. A much better deterrent than pictures of diseased lungs. Very few girls got caned and most did not make a return visit to the Headmistress.

Basically my school was a well ordered and well run place, and I think it is valid for children to want to work in a safe environment , and if the cane achieves this aim , then I feel it is a good thing.

 
 
American Way

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

March 1 2009, 5:58 PM 

Declan, it's good to read a post from a kindred spirit on this esteem Forum at last. Below is a February 22nd update with a repost from another thread to put things in perspective about teacherwhopaddle. Obviously, it is being used sparingly and I have little doubt moderately and judicially. It's a reasonable surmise or at least hopefully being applied elsewhere in said manner and not like in Malay among secondary school students. I have no doubt corporal punishment was over used and abused in the past and probably still is but to a much lesser extent. Used as a last resort, as these four are using it, is leading to results they believe in strong enough to work so hard endorsing in addition to their work as teachers. Their numbers suggest you don't have to paddle every child in the class for students to get the message. I do think they're tired of hearing from outsiders telling them what is good or not good for their classrooms and are tired of being unfairly vilified. Can you blame them? If you agree with me or if you can disagree civilly (read their rules, and don't be surprised that they write rules), because they are elementary school teachers, consider dropping them a line. I hope I'm not stepping on anyone's toes but it's hard to find anyone as politically incorrect as I am to dance with, but my dance card has been happily filled. There is no need to post as often about this subject so I won't before you tell me so. But don't be too swift to agree, I'm not a rhino and I'm just getting used to the give and take so y'all be gentle with me and I'll respond in kind.

My Dad, with a healthy animosity, called the English jicks, but we never knew the origin. Before the invasion he was stationed in Wales and England, he liked the Welsh but didn't like the he English for some reason he found the Welsh friendlier and felt less like an occupier. He was tired of hearing about our guts and your blood and how the Yanks were overweight, oversexed but worst of all over here. Their "humour" didn't coexist well with him!

Renee Howdy Y'all! January 27 2009, 8:55 PM

Hello from teacherswhopaddle from Renee the editor. This is just an open invitation for your community to send to Jenny, Wendy, Michelle, and myself your comments and suggestions.

Looking forwards to hearing from y'all!
Renee

February 22nd update from FAQ. How many students have each of TWPs (teacherswhopaddle) contributors paddled in their careers?
The numbers are as follows: (And we estimated on Jenny and me -Renee- in the high range) Renee- No more than 11 in 8 years, Jenny- No more than 8 in 6 years, Wendy- 6 in 4 years, and Michelle- 3 in 3 years.

 
 
Another_Lurker

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

March 1 2009, 8:56 PM 

Hi Declan, I have to say that I don't dispute anything you say above. I fear that I have not made myself clear. Children who have not experienced school CP are perfectly entitled to have and express an opinion on it. What I was trying (and clearly failing) to indicate was that I didn't consider it valid for someone else to quote that opinion in support of an argument.

I'll repeat the comparison I gave above. I know absolutely nothing about popular music or indeed the popular media culture generally, television, cinema, theatre etc. Despite this I am perfectly entitled to have an opinion on it and express that opinion. However it would be less than wise for anyone to quote my opinion in support of an argument since it has no basis in experience.

 
 
American Way

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

March 8 2009, 11:34 PM 

This is the teachers who paddle's position from their site about the Principal's Office paddling of Nancy from Booneville from their latest FAQ. They're charting a new direction and some members of this esteem Forum may find it a pleasant change so give it a second look.

http://teacherswhopaddle.wordpress.com/

What is TWPs position on the paddling incident in Arkansas involving a Nancy in a t.v. program The Principals Office?
TWP does not favor the paddling of secondary school students and the idea of a male educator paddling a female student is also a very bad idea. Our reasoning for the latter is that such only gives more ammo to the anti-c.p. zealots. TWP is planning a commentary on this soon.

They shared my POV as expressed previously on gender found in the last two paragraphs. I part company with them on the use of CP in secondary school. No one is in 100% agreement on anything and certainly not me. They favor its phasing out; de facto it is being used less frequently. I was glad to send an eighth grade boy down to the Principal's office, when I was in my early twenties knowing that she was going to paddle him. Not every tool is needed everyday but it's good to have it in the tool shed to be taken down from time to time so IMHO they should be kept in the book. Even if you don't use it the next person might. In almost everyone's home where they spank (not as in many in liberal ones and an exemption permitted in most Southern student handbooks) they stop spanking at about 16 and that's a good place for the schools to stop too. TWP girls better be careful for what they wish for because elementary schools will be next after the secondary school stop. Secondary school teachers don't like to be told about how to handle their students either.

Northern reaction to the television paddling of high school students in Arkansas (Principal's Office) was total disbelief by many. Wasn't it interesting everyone talked about Nancy and not Shorty (who's he?) who suffered the same fate. There was something about a big guy whacking a little girls bum that didn't sit well with viewers.

I'm not to sure about Steve Halter from Booneville, he gives me the creeps and as a parent I would want him to stay away from my daughter. He looked like he enjoyed it, especially when he let her play with the paddle. There is something unseemly about a man striking a girl's buttocks even with a female witness, who might be intimidated by his rank. It's more prudent to have men paddle boys and women paddle girls as in the Everman video. Call me prudish but when it comes to sexual abuse you can't be too vigilant.

 
 
man

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

March 11 2009, 7:20 PM 

oh........the paddles are so big

 
 
American Way

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

March 12 2009, 9:20 PM 

Here is another lame argument from those who are the most strident opponents to school corporal punsihment. One of the strongest arguments that groups like Human Watch is to invoke racism as a factor in CP. I really think they should stay with the United Nations because if they haven't looked lately there is a new president, and he gave a major address on education and CP wasn't his concern even when he spoke about order. There could have been no better time to address that issue than at the beginning of his administration where he has shown no fear of stepping into equally controversial areas. I welcome his no hands on approach (no pun intended) and that's not surprising considering he is a constitutional lawyer. I'm sure the teacherswhopaddle sighed a breath of relief. There is too much of a racial disparity between school CP and incarceration to deny a connection between the numbers of young black men in trouble with the law and are either in jail, have suspended sentences or on probation and blacks being paddled. The latest ploy is to show that black girls are paddled twice as often as white girls. I guess that's playing the gender and the race card. Have they seen the incarceration rate, again not surprisingly they're silent? To draw a nefarious conclusion that one causes the others strains credulity. To look only through a racial lens is really living in a black and white world. Have they seen other statisitics that relate to Hispanics and Native Americans? It's the less than two thirds caucasian teachers that are itching to paddle minorities. Give me a break. Have they read studies on corporal punsihment related to single motherhood or poverty? If you study infractions and sanctions within the school walls and outside the schools walls you may ask am I arguing apples and oranges. School corporal punishment many not be crime and punishment but it is about infractions and sanctions and if you look at the data from the states of KY and of FL, its clear that the counties that allow CP, however infrequently used, have lower numbers of infractions per pupil within the same area and of similar demographics as measured by totaling suspension and CP together or infractions that merited a disciplinary sanction. Blacks predominate in infractions meriting either physical or nonphysical sanctions. The children spend a lot of time outside the home and teachers have to deal with them as they are and not as they may wish and maybe, just maybe, teachers may have their best interests in mind. I dont believe in spanking as a ticket to heaven, I dont buy into spare the rod rhetoric and these schools dont factor into this data anyway. I believe every parent has a right to exempt their child and at a certain age, perhaps middle school children, should be given choices of sanctions, both equally unpleasant, for their infractions, after all Its hard to paddle the unwilling without parental intervention. I think the public schools that allow CP have it about right and should not be gainsaid. I think its worth looking at it from the POV of Nathaniel Livingston, a 38 year old black man in the link below.

http://blackcincinnati.blogspot.com/search?q=corporal+punishment

 
 
American Way

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

March 17 2009, 3:47 PM 

School CP opponents statements go unchallenged, they need TWP fact checks and to learn how to use logic.

Evidence all over the world indicates a strong relationship between high rates of corporal punishment and higher rates of poor academic achievement, dropouts, juvenile delinquents, incarceration and spouse abuse. There appears to be a strong link between corporal punishment during the growing years of a childs life, and his/her easily becoming a perpetrator (of violence) later in life. Despite the evidence, there are educators and legislators who defend student corporal punishment, students too, conform to school rules outwardly due to fear of corporal punishment- but obedience training isn't education! Children are being exposed from an early age to bullying tactics, and the use and abuse of power. Many of these students will put these lessons into practice at the earliest opportunity. School officials who allow such punishment knowingly put students at risk emotionally and physically and at an unnecessary disadvantage.

How to Use Logic

Often, when two people are arguing, one will say to the other, "You are simply being illogical!" That accusation is typically no more than another way of saying, "You're not agreeing with me so you're wrong!" In truth, logic is a process of arriving at a conclusion. To accuse someone of being illogical is different from accusing him of being wrong. It is entirely possible to be very logical and still arrive at a ridiculously incorrect conclusion. Logic is a powerful tool, but it must be used appropriately.

http://www.ehow.com/how_2054999_use-logic.html

 
 

Bob T

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

March 17 2009, 7:02 PM 

I find it interesting that TWP think it's perfectly OK for a woman to paddle male students but not vice-versa. They have a serious problem with the Booneville High Principal paddling a female student but have no problem sending a 7th grade boy to a female Principal.

According to American Way's quote they are more concerned with losing their power to paddle due to public opinion than they are with the girls welfare. This is the kind of demented narrow minded thinking that makes me sick. Their entire thought process is muddled and misguided. But what can you expect from someone who would rather beat a child than find out what the real problem is.

 
 
American Way

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

March 17 2009, 8:02 PM 

Bob T. I thought you said you were through arguing with me on this esteem Forum where you haven't lost one in three years. Try taking TWP on at your own peril. The Booneville paddling was more an age issue and not a gender one with them. 7th to 11th grade makes a big difference. Those young women aren't very "paddle happy" but they did correct you by name in March.

 
 
Another_Lurker

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

March 17 2009, 8:20 PM 

Hi Bob T. An interesting observation. I don't read TWP normally, but following one of the many links from American Way in this thread I found that TWP state:

if any c.p. is used on older kids at all -It must be meted out and witnessed by educator of the same gender.

You've obviously found a reference to them sending a 7th grade boy to a female principal to be paddled. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't a 7th grader be aged 12 or over? In that case IMHO they would certainly be in breach of their own clearly stated principle. I'd certainly count a 12 year old as an 'older kid'.

It has to be said though that in some parts of the world 'equal opportunities' legislation removes the issue from consideration. The UK doesn't have school CP, but it does have some equal opportunity laws. I'd guess that in the extremely unlikely event of school CP ever returning here gender considerations regarding it would probably be illegal.

 
 
American Way

"older kids"

March 17 2009, 11:13 PM 

There is a need for clarification concerning age. It is confusing, elementary school can be defined as first to eight in some school districts while others have elementary schools ending earlier and have either middle or junior high schools. They refer to older kids as 13 to 17 or secondary school judging by their October 2nd blog. Graduations are in June so depending on the date of birth, you begin at 13 or 14 and graduate at 17 or 18 from secondary or high school. I'm for children being "under the paddle" in their early secondary school years but would differ with them and err on the side of caution with a seventh grader as Anthony Price did in his demonstration of paddling in Everman, TX, Junior High School. TWP are not in favor of corporal punishment for 13 to 17 year olds but are not advocates for banning its use.

March 14th TWP: http://teacherswhopaddle.wordpress.com/2008/08/

In their latest blog they wrote: "Well, as we have discussed in previous posts: We do not support secondary school paddling, we do not believe in students choosing their punishment, and if any CP. is used on older kids at all - It must be meted out and witnessed by educator of the same gender."

They followed up on October 2nd with a clarification that explicitly mentions 13 to 17 in regard to their August link, above, they state clearly why they oppose CP on the secondary school level.

 
 

Bob T

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

March 18 2009, 4:12 AM 

AL; I was quoting AW post on march 9 @ 11:34pm. I don't read their blog because they "approve comments" before posting them and they already said they didn't want anyone who disagrees with them i.e. "we don't have time for any anti- cp essays". American Way must be one of them. He/she doesn't want me disagreeing with him/her either.

 
 
American Way

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

March 18 2009, 2:52 PM 

TWP welcome comments not essays on both sides of the issue. They welcome all comments of those who disgree with them provided, of course, they do so agreeably. Bob T, welcome doesn't mean publish but to listen to and consider, something understandably difficult to do when I read about how unjustly you've been on the receiving end. It is an emotionally charged issue and should shouldn't be surprising that it elicits strong opinions based on personal experiences. They're asking their readers to walk a mile in their shoes as teachers and to see through their eyes the media's unfairness. They are not asking for the discontinuation of bans in other states and districts but are challenging the media, something difficult to do when you consider the media's skew.

 
 
American Way

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

March 18 2009, 7:02 PM 

They said of you, Bob T: "In TWPs routine of checking what others on the net are saying about us, rarely is anything normal. Case in point was a comment by a Bob T. at Network54.com who thinks he knows more than he actually does. We at TWP are always more than happy to answer a challenge with a FACT CHECK of our own.

For the record, since you choose not to read their website, it is worth noting their painstaking research have proven your claims to be erroneous. I do feel sorry for your childhood abuse so I understand why you would look the other way. I'm not a man without pity.

 
 

Bob T

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

March 19 2009, 8:13 AM 

Look AW; I am not going to someones blog and attack them or their position. I would want people doing that to me so I won't do it to them. If they want to debate on neutral ground such as this forum then I will reluctantly take them on. I have already done this with Dean and Dr. Death respectively in the past. Dr. D has done his homework. I suggest they do the same. Because the simple response that "it works" just won't stand up to the mountains of research I have compiled against SCP. The entire pro SCP stance boils down to rule by fear and intimidation. It is the lazy approach to discipline in the classroom.

I used to keep up with all the currant research but I lost interest in it. In fact I recall two years ago there was a bill before the state congress in Missouri to ban SCP. I think it died without going to a vote. We now have a Democrat as Governor so it might be time to reintroduce that bill.

 
 
American Way

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

March 19 2009, 12:29 PM 

Good luck persuading the sensible voters of Winona MO.

 
 
American Way

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

March 19 2009, 1:01 PM 


Bob T comments and Winona High School handbook.

http://www.winona.k12.mo.us/education/components/docmgr/default.php?sectiondetailid=1258&fileitem=113&catfilter=58

Although they don't mention religion, their ideology stinks from it and I just can't go along with people who actually believe everything started six thousand years ago in a garden with a talking snake and an apple tree. Not to mention that every religious person I have met is completely saturated in hypocrisy.

February 23 2009, 12:25 PM





February 23 2009, 1:47 PM
What they are mostly promoting is laziness and fear mongering. The laziness comes from wanting to deal with mis-behavior problems with beatings. Also, whether you and the blog owners admit it, schools who use CP are magnets for sadistic, child abusing pedophiles.

February 23 2009, 1:47 PM


The fear mongering is what all conservatives and fundamentalists use to keep people of lower intelligence in line. It's their only line of defense when logic defeats them at every turn.


I guess you don't have any further defense so I am done here.



This message has been edited by larry1951 on Feb 24, 2009 1:15 PM





 
 
The Curse of Brian

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

April 5 2009, 8:00 PM 

Renee, one of the Teachers Who Paddle, has become a purveyor of erotica. In the weblog of April 4 she writes:

Well, just as I told you last year, one evening I took my long paddle (16 x 3 1/2 x 1/4) home with me. It is exactly like the on we made for Michelle (See post INTRODUCING A ROOKIE TO THE PADDLE) and looks a lot scarier than it actually is. Fact is, it is so light that if we used it like the paddlings some describe on other web sites, it would probably BREAK! And the reason I took it home? To find out for myself what that paddle actually does physically. And guess who was to be the recipient of an experimental paddling? YOURS TRULY!

That alone ought to convince folks of my sincerity in wanting to avoid abusive paddling. My husband John was a harder sell but I managed to cajole him into the experiment in my own "special way" -And don't ask because I'm not telling! (Everyone: Giggle, Giggle, Giggle) Anyway, after tucking in Tyler, my 3 year old, we started our experiment: Three swats just like the way we do at the school. While I coached John as to technique there was one MAJOR difference: No blue jeans or cotton underwear. The only thing between the pale skin of my bottom and that paddle was my rather thin silk pajamas!

Bending over the bed, I did have a "butterflies in the stomach" queasy feeling and could see, in the mirror's reflection, the paddle held at an angle just as I do when using it at the school. But I was determined to find the answer to my concerns and nodded for John to start. Three loud, stinging pops rang out. It did sting but at that moment I suddenly worried that our Tyler would start calling out for one of us! To my relief, he never did! So after reassuring John that I was o.k., I then checked my rear end in the bathroom. It was pink-red and stung a little but I would have gladly taken this over momma's strap! My reaction was "This is it?...No bruising?...No marks?...And barely red with only silk pajamas for 'protection'?" Also, the next morning I could barely see ANY evidence that there ever was an "experiment!"

http://teacherswhopaddle.wordpress.com/

 
 
Another_Lurker

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

April 5 2009, 8:58 PM 

Thank you The Curse of Brian. As I don't read the TWP blog anymore I'd missed that splendid entry. I don't think TWP are genuine anyway. The last time I did look at the blog their apparent purveyors of paddles included what was most definitely a, shall we say, 'fetish goods' site. I've nothing against fetish goods sites, we've all got to make a living somehow, but should anyone who is teaching little kids be openly publicising such a site?

And now this! I ask you, even if a teacher was going to try out the means by which they administered punishment to see what it felt like for the kids, would they do it that way and then write that sort of account about it? No they wouldn't. They'd just get a colleague to give them a few swats in the staff room. IMHO TWP ain't what they claim at all!

 
 
American Way

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

April 5 2009, 11:18 PM 

Are they for real? Of course, I had my misgivings to begin with because trolls abound when the topic is CP but given the climate of political correctness you can understand their wish to be anonymous and if theyre fogging I dont think Corpun would have fallen for it. As far as their last post, their experiment shows that size matters. Do Read Bob T post about the Booneville paddling of Nancy from the television show the Principal Office. Also read their conclusion inadvertently or conveniently omitted, better still read their Mission Statement in the bottom link. Wooooo baby are they giggling you fell for it. Good one Renee! They're not a hoax. Them gals are no dummies, read their resumes. TWP are Jordan Riak worse nightmare, given their youth he might not see CP abolish in his lifetime. They are enjoying a hoot at some members of this estimable Forum expense. You naughty - naughty girls. If you were my daughter I wouldn't put you on the no paddle list. I'd put you over my knee but you all are taken. This Easter Bunny will soon go hopping.

February 1 2009, 6:42 PM

Bob T posting: I would just like to say that Principals paddle was the lightest paddle I have ever seen a Principal use/own. It was clearly no more than one half inch thick. All the paddles I saw or had used on me were one inch thick and at least six inches longer than that paddle.

I can only assume that school CP is not as severe as it used to be. However I am sure that paddle would sting it just wouldn't leave the deep tissue bruising that a heavier paddle would.


TWP Conclusion: The anti-c.p. zealots have either absolutely NO creditability or what is occurring in paddling abuse stories needs to be investigated. If the paddling photos shown on anti-c.p. web sites are real, authorities need to find out who, when, where, and how. I suspect these abuse photos are either evidence of real abuse not protected by teacher Shield Law or they are FAKE!
Woooooooo baby! You are going to hear from our readers about this! (Everyone: Giggle, Giggle, Giggle)

 
 
American Way

Mission Statement TWP

April 5 2009, 11:30 PM 

This is from the link promised.

http://teacherswhopaddle.wordpress.com/2008/08/page/5/

PRIME STATEMENT: No teacher, who is a true professional educator, seeks or desires to use corporal punishment in school discipline as a means of enforcing classroom order. Teachers, as college educated professionals, only want to teach and do not want the added job of disciplinarian. That job should be the responsibility of the parents- teaching proper behavior and conduct to their children before school age. However, accountability for willful and defiant classroom misbehavior must always rest with the individual pupil.

 
 
The Curse of Brian

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

April 18 2009, 7:18 AM 

Paddling Renee refutes the idea that she has been writing erotica. I realise now that it is just coincidence that her piece contains several of the clichés found in flagellant literature.

http://teacherswhopaddle.wordpress.com/2009/04/


 
 
Another_Lurker

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

April 18 2009, 9:28 PM 

Renee of TWP tells me that I should:

GET HELP FASTYOU NEED IT!

This because I had the temerity to say:

I ask you, even if a teacher was going to try out the means by which they administered punishment to see what it felt like for the kids, would they do it that way and then write that sort of account about it? No they wouldn't. They'd just get a colleague to give them a few swats in the staff room.

How could her description of her selected method of experiencing a paddling possibly be in any way erotic? My lifelong rule of thumb that if it looks like a duck, waddles like a duck and quacks like a duck, then it's a duck, has totally betrayed me. After all,

The only thing between the pale skin of my bottom and that paddle was my rather thin silk pajamas!

and

Bending over the bed, I did have a "butterflies in the stomach" queasy feeling

plus more along the same lines was clearly not in any way erotic but simply a factual description of a simulated school paddling. Silly me. How could I possibly have made such a ridiculous mistake!

Apparently just getting another member of staff to administer a few trial whacks of the paddle was completely out of the question. Despite reading her rather convoluted explanation I am still left wondering why.

 
 
Steve M

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

April 18 2009, 10:23 PM 

A_L

Perhaps she was hoping for something from husband John.

Imagination, wit and initiative, I expect.

Unfortunately, John seems to have those qualities in exactly the same proportions as your average municipal car park.

So she clearly married him for the size of





his wallet.



Steve M

 
 

Another_Lurker

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

April 19 2009, 9:04 PM 

Hi Steve. I wouldn't want to speculate on that! My problem is that while I can entirely understand that a teacher using CP might want to have some appreciation of what the children in receipt of said CP were experiencing, I don't think that's what she got! Unless silk pyjamas happen to be the school uniform! happy.gif

 
 
Steve M

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

April 19 2009, 9:11 PM 

A_L

I can't see why she needs to specify the silkiness of them, unless, as you rightly say, she's aiming at the erotic market.

And just 3 swats?


Steve M

 
 
American Way

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

April 19 2009, 11:07 PM 

The experiment didn't prove anything because paddling an adult woman would be closer to paddling Nancy from Principals Office than what happens in elementary school. She took three pretty hard smacks from the sounds of it and you can see why five in most districts is the maximum. Emotionally there is no similarity between punishment and experimentation despite the similarities of the marks. Sharing what goes on behind close doors between consenting adults to strangers is not a good idea and diverts attention from its Mission.

I guess the idea of fewer clothes was to balance the size and sensitivity difference in buttocks, not an edifying image. Since it was a boy's buttocks that were hit, they haven't hit a girl but threatened the presumably better behaved girls maybe the role should have been reversed and a third person account could be given from her husbands POV. What is beyond the pale would be to suggest, as no one, thankfully and not surprisingly has from this estimable Forum, that there would be a carry over to whatever carnal needs satisfied or not satisfied in the bedroom into her classroom. Perhaps the teachers could have experimented on each other in their homes but that would raise a whole different can of worms. Wouldn't it?

Since two educators and the students are the ones who can bear first person accounts the best description found are the CBS TV Everman TX Junior High School demonstration and the Nancy paddling from youtube posted recently toward the end of the 23 girls caned thread. If they hit softer for the camera I'm sure the students would let their parents know and the media would certainly have picked up on it. BTW can anyone tell me why the Malaysian girls freshly caned palms picture comes out at times in the thread and other times you have to go to the URL to access it. Alaric posted this in 2006 under the oldest spanked thread. I'm surprised Corpun didn't pick up on it. In December 2006 they wrote it was banned and this was earlier in the year so I don't think it was a hoax. They were hamming it up for sure but coloring their palms red is another thing. I think it was real. Do you?

I'll never get my research done if I spend any more time here posting!!!

 
 

Another_Lurker

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

April 20 2009, 12:44 AM 

American Way, you ask:

BTW can anyone tell me why the Malaysian girls freshly caned palms picture comes out at times in the thread and other times you have to go to the URL to access it?

I'll do my best. Please see the Computing Corner thread, as this is a technical matter.

 
 
American Way

http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/2226/3226/1600/P7270001.0.jpg

April 20 2009, 2:06 AM 

[linked image]


See if this works. Copy/Paste Message Title. Which is probably just aas easy as going to the link and looking at the picture. But do you think the girls are playing a joke for the camera or were actually caned or who cares?

 
 

Another_Lurker

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

April 20 2009, 2:29 AM 

American Way, as this image display problem is obviously causing you some concern I'll put a direct link to the image in the 'Corporal punishment in Malaysia' thread, where I'm sure you'll agree any comments on the picture also belong.

 
 
Renee (TWP Editor)

Re: TEACHERS WHO PADDLE

April 21 2009, 2:26 AM 

A TWP MEMO TO STEVE M.:

I do not mind criticism of myself or teacherswhopaddle weblog -But John, my civil engineering college sweetheart is "out of bounds!"

Otherwise, keep up the good work on your forum and sent TWP any questions y'all might have.

Regards,
Renee

 
 
mimi

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

April 25 2009, 12:54 AM 

Reality check, please realise that the chance of female teachers forming a blog and discussing CP at school is boardering on the impossible.
They just would not risk exposure and the resulting loss of their position.
It goes against most terms of education employment.
Amusing but all fantasy.

 
 
American Way

Ancient USA History the Seventies?

April 25 2009, 3:26 PM 

CP was not a problem for teacher discussion in Pittsburgh and Los Angeles in 1975 by a future Congressman who weighs in on the matter so I'm sure it's not a problem in their forum where they teach. Their blog doesn't qualify for litigation under moral turpitude contracts. It's the unwanted publicity that accounts for their anonymity. The link is taken from an article that addresses corporal punishment but the rest of the article addresses the uprise of the so-called learning diabilities in the States and its impace on school discipine that was posted under the CP Revisited from the Cambridge Journal of Education.

Board member Bobbi Fielder, Board Member and future Congressman as previously took three licks like Renee from TWP in 1975 in front of her peers at their meeting in 1975 as picture previously posted.

http://www.spankfacts.freewebspace.com/fielder.htm

http://www.advancepublishing.com/schoolsincrisis/sicch7.pdf

Taken from pages 127 to 128.

Corporal Punishment: Teachers Reactions

As has been shown, the proper use of corporal punishment is
an effective device to correct misbehavior. Nevertheless, permissive
educational leaders have tried for years to bar its use from schools.
Though there are some 60 anti-corporal punishment groups, a survey
conducted by NEA showed that 72 percent of teachers favored corporal
punishment.It is amazing that teachers constantly bombarded with anticorporal
punishment materials can still, in the majority, favor its use. One
teacher cleverly analyzed the situation: The farther away you are from
the classroom, the less you think corporal punishment is needed.
The American Teacher reports that in Pittsburgh, in spite of a downpour, more than 1,000 teachers and paraprofessionals demonstrated
for strengthened discipline and security measures in city schools. Teachers
were angry after a pupil who assaulted a teacher was allowed to return to
class a few days later. They wanted firm action to deal with assaults on
teachers, on other staff, and on students, reported President Al Fondy of
AFT Local 400. If there is an assault on a teacher, the student should be
transferred or suspended for the balance of the school year. One of the demands the union presented was that corporal punishment
be restored. Absence of paddling, Fondy said, particularly at our
elementary schools and middle and junior-high schools, has been a
major factor in the deterioration of discipline conditions in our schools.
Restoration of this alternative for dealing with certain disciplinary
infractions could go further than any other single step toward improving
school-discipline conditions and toward reducing suspensions.31
School crime became so rampant in Los Angeles that California
Attorney General George Duekmejian in an unprecedented lawsuit
charged school officials with inflicting cruel and unusual punishment on
children by forcing them to attend city schools. In bringing this civil suit
against county agencies, mayor, city council, and police in the nations
second largest school district, the state is trying to compel schools
to protect their children. Duekmejian says, My primary goal is the
restoration of our public schools as islands of safety in which students
can pursue their learning without fear.To combat the rising crime, Los Angeles has reinstated corporalpunishment after prohibiting it four years ago. In a statewide survey of more than 800 parent-teacher associations, 85 percent of the parents and teachers supported corporal punishment. When LA
principals were surveyed, 89 percent favored reinstatement of corporal
punishment. Board member Bobbi Fiedler, when asked about the effectiveness of corporal punishment, replied, On an issue like this, experience is perhaps the best teacher. In Los Angeles schools, corporal punishment was endedin 1975. Since then there has been more fighting, more obscenity and a
general disregard for good behavior. There has been not only increased
lack of respect for adults, but children have exhibited greater hostility
toward each other as well. We are facing a tremendous increase in the
violence on our school campuses.


 
 
mimi

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

April 25 2009, 8:15 PM 

Dear American Way, first of all I want to sincerely thank you for your tireless dedication to this forum and your informative posts.
Only one problem with CP is that if anyone thinks that causing physical damage, humiliation and subjugation to anybody produces results then they are uninformed at best and sadistic at worst.
The problem lies with interfeering governments and the could not care less attitude of many parents, if indeed there are any parents to many young people.
The role model that the USA in particular gives is to go abroad and kill people to capture their " frindship ". Perhaps there is much more to it than beating innocent children.

 
 
American Way

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

April 25 2009, 8:48 PM 

Mimi, thank you. The problem is that the government does intervene with laws that are not from the people on the local level. Their views should not be cast off as not meaning anything. in matters rightly the concern of parents and teachers. There is a lot of stuff out there on both sides the issues that should allow people to make an informed decison (see below) through their local representatives. I'm a libertarian on most other issues as well but not on all issues like civil rights or gun control.

Paper (first link) presented at the Annual Mid-South Educational Research Association Conference (Little Rock, AR, November 8-10, 1989). Twenty four out of thirty seven student teachers have a favorable view for corporal punishment. In 2001 quote about CP in Kentucky: It has a lot to do with just the culture of the area, said Jeff Saylor, principal of Bell County High School near Pineville. Most parents in this area trust what's taking place in school. I just don't think it's seen as a vicious act. I think parents must trust TWP and parents who know whats good for their child and teachers who know what is good for their students should have more say than their critics to what goes on in the classrooms and principals offices. From what I can gather from their blog their trust is well founded.

http://eric.ed.gov/ERICDocs/data/ericdocs2sql/content_storage_01/0000019b/80/13/a2/b0.pdf

http://www.enquirer.com/editions/2001/02/18/loc_paddling_still_much.html

Fifteen out of 100 students in McCreary County and Bell County 11 out of 100 students or close to a third or a half of the boys in 2007 were paddled. The decline is caused by fewer counties permitting it and fewer schools applying it from 2000 to 2007 are indicated below. But with student teachers approving it twenty years ago it will be around for a while, perhaps long enough for the pendulum to swing the other way.

http://datacenter.kidscount.org/data/bystate/Rankings.aspx?state=KY&loct=10&by=a&order=a&ind=3791&dtm=7733&tf=11

http://datacenter.kidscount.org/data/bystate/Rankings.aspx?state=KY&loct=10&by=a&order=a&ind=3791&dtm=7733&tf=18

 
 

Abusers Who Would Make Jesus VOMIT!

May 31 2009, 7:32 PM 

If you go to the TWP website you'll be shocked by the misspellings, the usage of words which do not exist, and the lack of intelligence that makes you wonder how these people graduated high school.
There is NO DEBATE.
Anybody who hits a child is a child abuser without sufficient intelligence or skill to come up with another way of dealing with a child.
WORSE is when they hide behind the bible and Jesus - yeah, there are a hundred stories about Jesus smacking kids around and beating them till they got the message. Oh wait, no there aren't. There are ZERO.
You are all going to HELL where the devil will be waiting for your self righteous, falsely religious, flat earth believing asses with a great big paddle and he will beat you for eternity and it still wouldn't suffice for those of us who want justice.

 
 
American Way

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

July 3 2009, 6:18 PM 

http://teacherswhopaddle.wordpress.com/page/6/

Congratulations to Renee of TWP are in order who will be receiving a promotion commensurate with her academic achievements. I'm sure her thesis writing is better than her blog dear reader. They don't give out Masters Degree, however low esteem you hold our institutions here in. It will be good to hear how she handles 12 to 14 year olds on a school wide basis. She sure seem to handle her classroom well. I'm confident that she will shape those kids up like Anthony Price did at Everman Junior High School. I hope she doesn't need to for both of their sakes. Renee doesn't seem like a push over judging by her, or one of her colleagues response, to the anti SCP zealots (no spank) that they should call (no brain)!!! It's just a sample paddling but jusging by the lugurbious countenance of the girl's face she's none to happy that she volunteered.

[linked image]

[linked image]

 
 
prof.n

Re Teachers who paddle

July 9 2009, 9:31 PM 

American Way,

One of your links on one of your other many postings led me to the TWP website, and within it to their 'good practice standards' which they advocated, and reiterated last , I think in autumn 2008.

This raised some interesting issues for me ..which cross relate to the once and only once I was seriously paddled American style about which I posted on the swats v strokes strand on the 27th June. . Amazingly the ex Texan VP who did this followed virtually every one of the recommendations on that website in 2008- not some, I stress virtually every one.( the only exception being that she used a paddle ( good practice size and shape) but with holes ( Spenser style). However even this is dubious breach as they were all the holes were bevelled ,varnished and smooth ( believe me I inspected that paddle very closely!) so as to ensure blistering and hot spots could not occur.

In every other respect use of a brace position to safeguard against reaching back, using a 90 degree swing from the shoulder, keeping her free hand in the small of my back etc. etc. she measured up to the gold standard on every one. OK I got more swats than would be allowed today , but that is just a measure of time and tide. Even the ten I received ( twice the normal maximum today) did no serious damage when given in line with the good practice guidelines

Why does this finding surprise me? Because I am talking more than 35 years ago. So someone clearly back in the late 60's taught this lady to paddle safely, yes , in the State of Texas of all places, , and to a standard which still according to the ladies of TWP is not achieved anywhere near universally today.

I know from my conversations with her over later years , when she returned to the South as a High School Principal , that she often felt paddling should be , as it now largely is , centralised and uniformly applied. Her main bete noire in this regard were the 'Coaches' (male and female) whom she found difficult to 'regularize' and manage effectively . Eventually, I understand in her school she withdrew their right to paddle entirely, because of the fact that some of them refused to comply with what she saw as basic norms of 'civilized' behaviour, or comply with requirements such as checking the student record .

She used to say that being a female Principal in the South in those days meant being tougher than the toughest man , and she may not have been far from the truth (Anyone with doubts about the problems with coaches. read the story , also on TWP in respect of the experiences of two senior girls on the receiving end to see how it shouldn't be done, and, how nothing was done about it).

However this raises a couple of general points.

Firstly it shows the difficulty in a diffuse and decentralised state education system . It should not take 35 plus years to universalise simple good practice! Despite the efforts of TWP and similar , there still appears to be no adopted good practice code at any official level in this regard. Each State/ school board makes its own judgements, and some, as we have seen elsewhere don't change much over time.

Secondly, and very importantly, as I have said in respect of the British failure to defeat abolition, this was due to two main problems. One the inability of the retentionists to mount a single clear coherent case based on modern transparent, humane and realistic criteria., which was backed by the anti abolitionist Heads. Two the problem that the retentionists failed miserably to recognise , let alone clean up bad practice where it existed in the sector . Some schools were light years ahead of others in theory and practice, but their was little attempt to cross pollinate and disseminate best practice.

If the South ( or, rather, the 'red' States) really believes in the value of retaining the paddle as an option in the future they need to wake up and smell the coffee!

No area of education stays stagnant...and if good practice hasn't been universally adopted in 35 years........Of course , to be devil's advocate, if the teaching profession really supports those pictures of abuse we see from time to time paraded through the courts and on the TV , those pictures no one of sane disposition could support, then so be it . The end will be abolition, and a step towards the type of classrooms we see in large parts of the UK state sector today . . but if they wants to plough a different furrow, then we need to see modernization, and good transparent practice, that can be supported by parents, educators the community and even students themselves.


 
 
American Way

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

July 9 2009, 11:33 PM 

prof n it would behoove the retentionists to wake up and smell the coffee and read TWP because they're furrowing a path worth following. Ploughing a different furrow makes a lot more sense than following the flow when one can clearly see the dam ahead. I must say 10 swats is way out of line than the usual 3 today. I take it from your timeline we are contemporaries.

In 2005 Pennsylvania outlawed corporal punishment. Maybe Turkeyfoot high school is leaving it there is to act as a deterrent although I'm surprised the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania hasn't intervened in four years but maybe a comprehensive revision is in the works. The Amish are peace loving so the manner in which they administer corporal punishment involves restraint and respect not usually afforded in other districts this not found in other catalogues. They are living proof that they can both affirm and discipline a child at the same time. The following is from the American Way thread but can be appropriately posted under this thread and is addressed to prof n.

c and d makes sense with the older children. Teenagers would know about their own medical and parental consent exemptions. Kids respond positively to trust. If the child falsely invoked an exemption he/she must not be too bright because the teacher may know and the office surely would. Punishment should be swift and sure so there would be no doubt what bad choice led to a bad consequence. It avoids needless anxiety producing delay as in the Amber Page paddling referred to under the American Way thread.

b extend the courtesy of the word ask thus affording them the respect they deserve as human being. A police officer says Sir may I have your license and registration before you have to pull it out of the wallet in your back pocket and face the music for the follies of adult proclivities so why not an adolescent guilty of their follies. Were not dealing with felons. They dont say give me or hand over to me at least where I come from. Coercing a teenager can turn a paddling into a battling that TWP perceptively noted some time ago. They favor phasing it out on the secondary school level where I believe thats where they need it the most until they reach the age of leaving. By having the student bend over thus avoiding paddling on places other than the buttocks you protect them physically and by having and not making them bend over it become a matter of them finding the courage to submit freely like Booneville but without the silliness of giving the students choices. In a swimming pool having them dive (bend over) into cold water is a far cry from throwing them in or bending them over. These may seem like subtle differences but not to an adolescent often not afforded the respect that they deserve in light of their maturation. I agree with one of the handbooks that you make the choice and we choose the consequence. Emotionally a paddling can take its toll so giving the student ample time to gain his/her composure before returning to class makes eminent sense.

 
 
prof.n

Trachers who paddle

July 10 2009, 1:12 AM 


Hi American Way

Just a ( temporary) parting comment.

Nothing in your post I can disagree with . The Amish are a civil, trusting and caring community with values the world has left behind some time ago. Such communities should be left in peace, provided their young people get their choice of lifestyle at or before majority.

I think the whole point of TWP and of my Stateside friend in Texas, has always been to give students choice, dignity and respect. That's what the coaches didn't do. The rights agenda is about the way we deal with young people, self worth and being a good citizen. Many young people today are treated with contempt by the very people who claim to be their defenders....why? Because they give them little or no credit to have the ability to chose, to recognise consequences, and deal with them. Being a good citizen means accepting unpleasant consequences as well as receiving rights.

But as I've said elsewhere, as soon as the child reaches maturity, and the age of majority, earlier in a few cases, they come slap bang up against a unforgiving state machine which 24 hours earlier mollycoddled them into false security.

If you don't believe that visit amy maximum security facility in the States, I have done its absolutely frightening.- and that's leaving aside death row- . To end up doing 10-20 there ( a pretty moderate sentence by US standards), is a huge price to pay for not accepting earlier personal responsibility , and having learned from living in a consequence based regime., rather than being deceived in a purely positive reinforcement 'Garden of Eden' .

If the world outside were like that fine, but it ain't and as educators we know that, so don't sell our kids short. Lets remember the same politicians who provide the 'Garden of Eden' then expect these kids to fight for us in Vietnam , Iraq or Afghanistan , and they will soon learn the hard lessons of responsibility and consequences there,

Our Political sages won't shield them from that lesson in reality

Will be back soon! .

 
 
American Way

Teacher Chat Boards

July 26 2009, 5:46 AM 

They're shutting down threads that they feel are being abused by trolls. This is an account from 2006 of what appears to be a young English teacher who is called upon to be a female witness for the first time and is seeking support from her fellow teachers. It could be written by a man but it smacks of reality. It's hard to fool some readers here.

More than one out of twelve were paddle and in heavily populated area districts it is banned so the more mature veterans would be paddling in rural areas by even a larger percentage up to 20% in some schools according to Corpun, the discoverer and keeper of these stats so the story may not be all that far fetch. I wonder how she is faring three years later? She does seem like she doesn't have too much choice given her position on the totem pole but that shouldn't really matter because all that should matter is her conscience. This doesn't settle well with the American Way. The TWP girls are more like mothers to the elementary school kids and the young teachers may be perceived by the high school students as big sisters and may in fact be. I can't see them letting teachers in their early twenties paddle students in their late teens but witnessing is a different matter. They won't be on a learning curve later but if more teachers object policies may change and it's better for them to decide than others and at think that's what TWP is saying.

http://teachers.net/states/ms/topic503/10.25.06.07.19.09.html

 
 
American Way

Picked a fine time to leave me Lucille

July 26 2009, 7:40 PM 

[linked image]

This vignette was shared by superintendent of school about my age when he was a student. The principal would announce over the PA system that a student was about to be paddled. He would not say the students name, but through the PA system other students could hear the whacks of the paddle meeting its target. As previously mentioned in my school it was the stick and the PA system was for the children in that grade. prof n spoke of his experience with paddles with holes that are thankfully banned and often specifically in handbooks. Your observations concerning the lack of skill in the use makes it easier to use. Those responsible for using too much force can face unpleasant consequences with bruises used as evidence. Im glad you say deep tissue because I bruise easily and am border line anemic and border line a lot of other things. Lucille must have been traded in every year to make room for the signatures as was a tradition previously mentioned with the tawse albeit less common.

http://www.nwarktimes.com/bcdr/News/68403

Booneville High School Corporal punishment statistics.

http://adedata.arkansas.gov/Cycles/SchoolCycle7.aspx?p=26&y=2004-2005

http://adedata.arkansas.gov/Cycles/SchoolCycle7.aspx?p=26&y=2005-2006

Halter treats the handbook like a bible and treats it just as literally as they do there and ups the ante to 180 over 100 with his taking over as Administrator. I dont know much about sounds prof n but something doesnt seem right in Halters demonstration whoooosh and the noises emanating from his office. Those unfamiliar with corporal punishment were shocked by its barbarity when the impact and vocal response while those who have been on the receiving end felt it was mild in comparison to their real life experiences. Objectivity is in the third person and reading the teacher witness for the first time and actual paddling from Mississippi. Here is an excerpt. The young English teacher of 8th and 9th graders and that is plausible judging by her writing by todays standards and not only in Ole MS.

> Both girls were crying and then informed me that their parents
> had been called and they were going to receive 5 licks with
> a wooden paddle that would be administered by him to their
> buttocks which I would be their witness. He also went on to
> say they would write a 3,000 word theme the subject would
> be chosen by me and to be graded by me. I asked him if I
> could discuss the situation with him in private. He told me
> he would after the girls were paddled. He then instructed
> one of the girls to step out of the office and wait until she
> was called in. He had me stand in front of the other
> girl as she was bent over I was to hold her shoulders as he
> paddled her. He gave her 5 very hard licks and she cried
> the whole time. I am appalled that this took place with no
> input from me as a professional teacher.

 
 

Re teachers who paddle.

July 26 2009, 11:21 PM 

Hi American Way.

Very interesting , and worrying information on your last post...I think it makes my point for me. As you know my belief is that the paddle is fine provided it is regulated Lucille provides as does the Mississippi extract, the other side of the coin. .

First, I looked in horror at 'Lucille' and compared it with what a decent paddle should be. Here are the differences:and remember Lucille was intended for 7th graders. The differences between Lucille and the paddle I had the misfortune to meet are so numerous as to need enumerating ; and remember I would have been your 10/11 grade not 7th.

In general design the paddle I got was professionally made and turned, so that it had no sharp edges, ( all 'rounded') for safety. The holes were not small and drilled , but large and bevelled ( again bevelled edges, so no risk of blisters or haematoma.. the point of the holes was to allow aerodynamic flight , which I was told meant the paddle had to be swung at LESS speed to produce a good sting this also reduced bruising, which was an unwanted 'side effect' and should be minimised.

It looked as if Lucille had been made up in the local craft class.....( remember 'dazed and confused'?) !. It appears not to be smoothed or varnished, (to prevent splinters) and not made from hard wood ( so prone to cracking)

Most of all it is one inch thick when the standard thickness of custom manufactured paddles is 3/8 to ½ inch! Where the ½ inch is intended for tenth graders upwards......Length well Lucille is about 3 foot..... the one I met 16 inch by 3 inch, including handle/grip .

OK so Lucille is out....Now the use of the PA system, is certainly a routine breach of privacy , and I would have thought should have been prohibited by most regulations....use that and you first of all break the agreement with the victim, but, more importantly you are using a deliberate 'public deterrent ' effect with other students , exactly why in class paddling is , or should be , prohibited.

Surprise surprise who uses it .the coaches.

As to Mississippi. . We don't know what the penalty was for , but five swats plus a six page essay my translation 500 word per page......which was to be graded ( pourquoi? As they may prefer down there. )....which again is this phenomenon of mixed punishment ( remember the half day Saturday school plus 3 swats for Nancy?)........... but the worst is holding the kid down. Again in good practice guidance there is no need. Firstly if the paddler's hand is in the small of the back of the student you can stop undue movement and danger during the swat....and if the student wants to move around he/she should not be restrained. ...it is not for the administrator or staff to restrain him/her,again that is bad practice. .

Look , as I've said before, why don't these States wake up......with good guidance they can have a discipline system everybody respects, and accepts ; stay as they are and they are just begging the Courts to close the options down... Wake up the coffee has nearly boiled dry!

Finally another word about the eponymous Mr. Halter, and all the women in his family that keep him waiting.......again I would say the soundtracking was obviously done from outside the door, so probably artificially boosted for effect on transmission. The after effects of the swats were very mild, although as I have already warned I'm not the best to judge, in my day the maximum number of licks allowed by many jurisdictions were up to 12 ...I got 10 , and compared to three that's a different ball game. But that the paddling was mild seems to be born out by the comments of others

again just my views.......

 
 

A thought

July 26 2009, 11:38 PM 


Just a thought....what can we learn from all these examples from today and yesterday's history?

first...have unregulated practice ...lose public support and ultimately the right to paddle ( babies and bathwater)


second .. be forward looking, and adapt and be prepared to defend your good practice


then you may have a well disciplined school , where people respect each other...and less sass ,tardys,skipping and disruption



 
 

Another_Lurker

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

July 27 2009, 1:30 AM 

With regard to the ADEDATA statistics linked by American Way for Booneville High School 2004-2005 above:

Total Corporal Punishment Infraction 14     96
Total Corporal Punishment Infraction 15      4
Total Corporal Punishment                   4520
Total Infractions                                4092

Why were there more corporal punishments than infractions? Infractions 14 and 15 accounted for 100 corporal punishments. What on earth were the other 4420 corporal punishments for?

And finally the 'Quarter 4' being dealt with extends from 14 March 2005 to 25 May 2005 according to one of the boxes. That's 73 days, of which 10 were Sundays. Even assuming Saturday school and no holidays for any reason that's only 63 school days. 4520 corporal punishments and 63 days is nearly 72 corporal punishments (presumably paddlings) per day. It's a wonder poor old Steve Halter had time to do anything else. And how did a man of his, shall we say, not very athletic build keep himself fit enough for all that paddle swinging?

I have to say that these figures look like the sort of garbage churned out by computer by official bodies world-wide that nobody checks and nobody reads. Or am I missing something? happy.gif

 
 
American Way

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

July 27 2009, 3:29 AM 

If you examine the data from other counties and cities the same ridiculously errant data abounds when it comes to compilations. On the top right hand corner you can set the time lines and see how the numbers have declined significantly since 2000 (with Booneville and obvious exception. The US DOE site that I have yet to crack would be most helpful in that regard. FL and KY have their act together without errant compilations but break things down by counties and not individual schools. I feel the numbers are undercounted because not every paddling is reported in the first place but I can't prove that and I'm sure it's not as prevalent as the opposition would like us to be led to believe.

prof n you made an excellent point about schools needing to get their act together when it comes to uniformity on policy. There should be leeway in developing definitions of infractions and sanctions but a common general policy should apply. The counties and the schools can come up with different strategies but there has to be standards set by the state that should protect the teachers from law suits who follow the rules. I think these rules could be a starting point. The temporary and permanent injury has to do with severe bruising and five swats. It would be better for Steve Halter to let the physical education teachers do the paddling. Is this what the paddle looked like? Compound punishments have been going on for years. The theory is that different forms of punishments work so you might be right once or like a broken clock twice in one day. That was a very perspicacious point you made when you said: Firstly if the paddler's hand is in the small of the back of the student you can stop undue movement and danger during the swat....and if the student wants to move around he/she should not be restrained. ...it is not for the administrator or staff to restrain him/her,again that is bad practice

This previously referred to photo from an anti CP zealot site shows a paddle that would be the most commonly used and readily available online and she is being paddled in the manner you suggest. Her hands are kept out of harms way and her vulnerable tail bone is protected. The need for restraints with the likelihood of injury are one of the reasons why TWP is encouraging the phasing out of CP on the secondary school level (where it may do the most good) Like the "no paddle site" that I've referenced the girl wasn't bad but she was being paid because she looks good from that angle. They're doing the projecting and that shows you how low they can go. In the seventies and early eighties paddlings were often done privately in unoccupied classrooms and corridors and without witnesses but they can't keep their agenda very hidden. Can they?

I like the Onslow County, NC policy and it might be a good starting point. Let the state set the policy to protect against litigation and let the counties and the cities develop the strategies. The state doesn't write things like giving the students options, gender considerations and disciplinary matrices in stone. IMHO those who want to maintain the option of paddling are shooting themselves in the foot and better get their act together. TWP is a step in the right direction.

http://www.onslow.k12.nc.us/Policies/4000/4355.PDF


[linked image]

 
 
American Way

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

July 27 2009, 12:51 PM 

The eponymous (technically I don't know if that's the correct word for the ubiquitous Nancy Guillen) Megan Lowry confirms the numbness and the signing especially the smiley face like one of our distinguished members of this estimable Forum is so fond of. I found that a nice touch however apocryphal it may be. Witness POV matter and hearsay matters unless you're in a courtroom and everyone needs someone to debrief with so however fictional his (more likely than her) account is there is something to be learned from it. I have very few personal accounts and a few I've yet to share including one where a classmate was hit and later became principal of the same school. I've joked with him about that. Are there are Yahoo sites that Dr Dominum may know something about CP now in the States that deal with the recent than the less and less recent accounts found here. Megan Lowry story was first told through Yahoo. Dr Dominum's experiences in real time in Australia is indeed a rare POV however their validity or intolerably they may seem to some but let's not get into that. Please!!!

 
 
Former student, teacher and Principal

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

July 27 2009, 2:41 PM 

The people at teacherswhopaddle are sick individuals who distort truth. Their latest rampage is about underage strippers in RI. They make it sound as if such is acceptable and supported when in truth the legislature immediately introduced a bill to fix a loophole in the law when it was discovered. But what would you expect from those who think that beating children with a wooden board is good discipline and can teach anything but anger as and disrespect for the adult wielding the paddle. I was paddled at school as a boy and that smile on my face when I later saw my paddler was a facade hiding the hatred and need for revenge I had inside.

 
 

RE Teachers who Paddle

July 27 2009, 4:52 PM 

From all the statistics details and anecdotes , plus American ways own questions, we cane see a pattern slowly emerging, which tells both a historical and a socio-political story of especially the South. It is a sad story, which has been repeated many times in many different social spheres in that part of the world. It is sad , because ,instead of taking the opportunity to develop creative, innovative and individualised solutions to discipline problem that afflict the whole of the US ( and international ) education systems , the south seems to retreat into its bunker and simply talk to itself.

Let's look at a few of American Way's issues one by one:-

Statistics

Why am I not surprised that the figures don't add up ? Well I've just spent the last six or so months preparing a paper for a conference in the deep south, and all the statistics ( and you know how much I hate pesky numbers anyway) have been the bane of my life. Sure the States do a damn fine job in collating paper with numbers on it ...but whether these actually convey useful information is another matter entirely! I could go on for reams about statistical inaccuracy, but lets just look at one statistic ...total number of reported paddlings For example your figures give a number of somewhere around 1.5 million paddlings total in 1976. A second source , which I accessed gave the same figure as 2.35 million, and a third source estimated 'just under 2 million. How do such discrepancies arise?

Well of course it is the old sheep and goats question , when is paddling not a paddling? First off very few schools then and I guess this is still prevalent, kept an audit record of even 'serious' paddlings. Before about 1980 the instructions to schools were to disregard all classroom teacher administered paddlings, recording only those given by administration , and in some cases only those given over 3 licks. Commentators at the noted that under these definitions a large number , even possibly a majority of paddling occurred in the unregulated environment.

Even the recorded paddling as I say, had no audit trail to verify it, but the same was true of many figures..... and some schools admitted to me 'off the record' that many of the statistics across the board were, when aggregated at the state level , little but 'good estimates' based on 'usual load' and practice. .so in particular time series statistics are of little value as the are complied using ever shifting base lines. They may illustrate, but can hardly qualify as knockout evidence. .

As they used to say garbage in .garbage out......

Consent

Absolutely vital to any system of school discipline is consent. Of course it times past kids were held down to be beaten, come to that they were hung for petty theft, but that's history of which we should rightly be ashamed.

In a modern system where cp plays a utilitarian role , part of the discipline itself is the fact that the child submits voluntarily to the punishment .Actually holding themselves in position is a part of the learning process. Any child that is unwilling to undergo cp should be punished in another way. It is simply degrading and unacceptable for a child to be 'held down' and 'forced' to submit, and that ignores the psychological damage this would undoubtedly do.

Safety

The regime must primarily ensure complete safety. The paddle dimensions, material and design should be approved and as far as possible the process of administration should be routinised. Paddling should be recorded , and the record should be able to be audited. The position used for administration should be one approved as medically safe. . This includes bracing against a wall, but not a position where hands can move without causing the student to stumble/fall. There should be a same sex witness, with a clear brief, and the students a should have a absolute right to request a paddler of the same sex if that is desired

The procedure should be specified in terms of good practice guidance . I won't repeat it all , but, for example free hand to rest not restrain in the small of the back to ensure the student does not damage themselves by rising during the actual swat. Guidance should be given as to the strength of swat required, and what steps to take to achieve that. . .and on counselling , support etc.

Compound punishments

Now these really do get me hot under the collar. ..Look every type of punishment has its up side, downside and side effects. What you should do is match horses to courses. After all a teachers first duty is to do no harm.......

Lets keep it simple If each punishment ( paddle, suspension, detention etc....) were to work in say 40% of cases but have adverse effects in 20% of cases and, say we had three available , what should we do , attempt to best select the punishment for the child, to do most good and least harm , or say we will use all three in combination on every child , because that's the best chance of cure.......or kill. ? Why? because whilst the 'cure' rates cannot as a multiple intervention strategy simply be added together , , the damage rates may be..or at least have a likelihood of being nearer that result...In theory you could then, in the example given , damage a majority of of all students punished.......In good medical practice you avoid mixing drugs..the side effects on conjoint therapy is always higher than with a single therapeutic agent.

Make a choice and stick to it : don't hedge your bets. I would have thought quite in line with Alamo values........ after all the lesson for the poor victim is decisions have consequences.....

Finally some general points.

I disagree with one point, as you would expect me to , I think, on your comments in respect of letting PE staff do the deed. I think there is sufficient from evidence of court cases and incidents where internal complaints have been made which show that Coaches, PTI's and the like receive more than their 'fair share' of complaints. Firstly they are often obsessively physically fit, making them far more likely to hit inordinately hard. Secondly they are unlikely to deal sensitively with marginal groups. nearly having single handedly coined the word 'wimp' and the old campus joke ' you need behavioural attitude adjustment (BAT!) , and in the past developing such techniques as 'bombardier' the punitive version of Dodge ball!'. Often socially they tend to be isolated from other staff members , so are less aware of character and social trends amongst the students, knowledge which may play a significant role in the determination of appropriate action.

Of course they may save poor old Steve Halter from a self inflicted coronary........

You asked about the paddle. Let it not be said prof.n leaves any stone unturned.! A quick email or two..to/from my old friend....a search of the suppliers catalogues....and presto, for comparison the 2009 version of the paddle I met with in 'unfortunate circumstances'......complete with specification..Even though I am, assured the original is in good working condition , just , like its owner, matured with age, and use ( good strong Arkansas black oak , I'm told , ( but that could be a bad joke from 'Dazed and Confused')!! ps about $30 before educational discount)!

[linked image]

Oh! and I thought eponymous was right for Steve Halter because I suspect we'll soon see, Halter High, or even Halter County, ( yes that has a nice ring about it!!!), guess you'd even have a candidate for sheriff thrown in gratis !

..

 
 
American Way

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

July 27 2009, 7:43 PM 

prof n coaches are parents too and they would take umbrage with your stereotype. Some wimps have all their muscles between their ears and may over compensate. Witnesses should act as a sort of ombundsman when it comes to inflicting corporal punishment. Teachers should be the gatekeepers of who is sent to the office but the student would understanbly feel reticent to turn to that teacher to be the only adult willing ear to turn to in a crisis. See I can be kind.

Children shouldn't be held down but alternatives to defiance should be severe for those who don't have the courage to submit. They shouldn't be rewarded unless you want to raise a generation of cowardly brats and maybe it's too late. How about a semester of Saturday school? See I can be cruel.

prof n compound punishments do make some sense in certain situation. Tardiness with makeup work, grafitti with cleanup work in addition to a paddling so it isn't always a matter of double jeapordy or using a failed method on top of one that you hope gets better results. An English teacher shouldn't be paddled but instead of a 3,000 word theme how about making her write out in long hand the contents of the book entitled "Writing for Dummies" before she posts on chatboards but don't ask me to do the same.

Safety considerations should take precedence and the brace position and the poistion shown above make sense. The anti cp zealots use the paddle you show as the cruelest instrument and are explicitly forbidden in more and more handbooks so good luck advocating its use by either physics or personal experience.

Let's face it being sexually exploited ranks way down the lists in terms of safety. It's impugning the motives of too many honorable people and they deserve better. Parents through prior consent should be allowed to exempt or demand a female witness but I wouldn't want the kids to think that their teachers are getting their jollies at their expense. Before long every adult male will be looked at as a pervert. Practically speaking a female witness makes sense but the gender of the paddler should be determined by the Principal. How many choices do you give them when they have already made a bad choice that put them in that bent over position in the first place.

Maybe the best way TWP can advocate for the continuation of the option is to propose a handbook corporal punsihment procedure garnered from the many handbooks published on the corpun site. And frankly as much as I commend the girls they are getting a bit off track in their summer postings. They're is more work to do than preaching to the choir by showing how foolish thir opponents are. The former principal makes a criticism of TWP hardly worth dignifying with a response and TWP has taken on more formibable opponents including my compatriot and fellow lifetime honorable member Paula Flowe. I would challenge her to a debate but TWP beat me to it.

prof n you have given TWP a lot of talking points and weighing in on these matters might help continue what we both consider a worthy disciplinary tool on the table but not bent over one. I agree with you about the hands on the ankle and the brace position are better than the positions that provide more support and more movement like those afford by a chair (Booneville) or the most popular bent over a desk. the table. Consider the nineteen year old charter school student from San Antonio who hurt her hand or God forbid a broken tailbone.

I wish people wouldn't fixate on a few photos of bruised buttocks. It's that kind of propaganda that has led to the diminishment in great numbers of paddlings in the USA. Liars figure and figures lie but no matter how you look at the numbers paddlings have declined dramatically. Not every paddling is a merited one and not every paddling is perfect but I am far from convinced that it has no place in our school system.


 
 
American Way

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

July 27 2009, 9:11 PM 

Demeter back on July 21 in the Keep It Real thread asked if I thought Megan Lowry was a boy or a girl. I have mentioned that I am almost positive that the essay's author is a he because of the similarities he uses describing the buttocks of a professional model after being paddled. He could be an English teacher. Just Google "my space megan lowry mayberry" and if you scroll to the bottom you'll read this dead give away. The painful five swats caused no deep tissue bruising and I doubt many do. I don't think they would be hitting high school girls harder than adult models acting like high school students. The models are paid to prove a point that teachers have been making for years about the after effects being exaggerated.

The intense sting wore off in a few minutes, but I was hot and headachy all day, the hard desk chairs feeling uncomfortable. For the remainder of that day the sensation in my nether regions was like a bad sunburn, and my jeans felt tight and chaffed. Returning home that afternoon I showered and checked for damage in the full length mirror in the bathroom. My bottom was still reddish to dark pink with some bruising on the right cheek but not the left. No welts like I figured there might be. The bruise lasted a few days, but the redness was largely faded by the next morning. For a couple of days I experienced an annoying "twang" of discomfort when sitting on a hard surface or moving in just the wrong way.

 
 

Another_Lurker

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

July 27 2009, 10:51 PM 

Hi American Way. I cannot of course disprove your theory that Megan Lowry is a male. In cyberspace nothing can ever be proved or disproved absolutely.

I will say however that if 'Megan' is indeed a male he is a remarkably shapely one! Either that or he has access to a large number of photographs of the same female.

Inspection of 'Megans' 4 pages of photos on the MySpace hit you give above does however reveal what may well be spanko tendencies in that the young lady seems to delight in posing in postures which positively invite the application of paddle or slipper, depending on which side of the pond you hail from.

Sadly though, the picture which I seem to recall used to accompany her paddling story, of Megan posing very prettily, possibly in the mouth of a cave, and said to have been taken around the time of her paddling, is not on her MySpace site. sad.gif

 
 

Re teachers who paddle

July 27 2009, 11:36 PM 


Hi American Way,

Thanks for your detailed , interesting and challenging reply. I think we are moving to some clear positions! Let me try to indicate very briefly my views on your comments. A lot , indeed the majority we clearly agree on , the other issues represent , I think a healthy debate!

Can I beg indulgence on the issue of the coaches to the end, obviously I clearly accept that, the vast majority of of these staff do a good job , and naturally many are parents, but I seriously believe that in the US, and I would argue the same here, that there are some good reasons why this is not an ideal solution? I guess this may be something on which we agree to disagree. The rest is more simple

The next bit about who paddles is complex. You see IMHO there are a number of groups or subsets of groups who should, for valid medical /psychological reasons (psycho/social) reasons , never be paddled. That's why you need parallel punishments. Also there are those a) whose parents will not permit ( we didn't have that in our system) b) amongst older students, those who genuinely are themselves ( yes I mean the students) opposed morally or on philosophical grounds. to physical punishment. As I said this latter group ( and I have discussed this at length in the context of the UK on Dr, D's site look up sixth form canings in April/May this year) pose certain genuine problems regarding the issue of educational philosophy and the moral compass of teaching which goes beyond the scope of our discussion here.

There are compelling arguments both ways , class teacher or administrator, but in your system the administrators seem to have won, which makes sense on one count ( centralisation and even-handedness) but removes the teacher from the direct responsibility for discipline, which as you point out is good...but also leaves them looking a little neutered . Nevertheless you are where you are and the administrative solution is better. Now high school paddlings as I understand it from a few studies peak around year 9/10 for boys and a little later for girls. To judge by court issues and news reports there also are significant numbers in final year.

So there is a good argument for alternate punishments, of equal 'deterrence' being available and being compatible , provided they don't bring us to the Shelly Gaspersohm scenario.

I don't have a problem with make up work , graffiti removal whatever, as reparation alongside swats ( although there is a problem if swats are used for work failure due to inability, as opposed to laziness, and the identification of these categories. In the UK and I believe with Dr. D this was not recommended and often prohibited for good pedagogic reasons).

What I have a problem is mixed punishments intended to punish and deter ( two punishments to achieve the same end) each of which will damage a discrete sub set of students. It is a far easier and safer to use one ... So I oppose these mixed deterrents on what I believe are sound pedagogic principles.

Safety agreed.

I guessed the next bit , but I don't understand them ......to me its like the argument that because the speed limit is 70 we shouldn't make cars that do more than 80. It can be better and safer to drive in a car at 70 which can do 120 than one which will fall apart at 75! On a lighter note you can have this paddle according to the advert 'with or without holes' at the same price, like cheese they don't charge for the holes....!!!!!!

Actually though having taken 10 hard swats which really hurt, and seen that I had no serious bruising or blisters caused by the holes, ( so no one should have with the much lower tariffs today ), I really am perplexed by the argument....any of our esteemed readership have experience as anatomists/physiologists - any illumination on this one? I suspect the Spenser is a victim of its own publicity!

Don't have a problem with your position on male/female paddlers personally. It just seem to me that the student should feel comfortable ( well if you see what I mean) with the arrangement. When we had a female deputy at school it was surprising that a fair proportion of boys opted to be caned by a male. I just don't want to manufacture difficulties that result in disputes.

Handbook etc agree completely.........as for position it is just prudent to avoid possible injury.Again this is why it is important not to paddle those who are in any way unsuitable. With many of your high schools having counsellors and psychologists on staff yopu are in a much better position than we were in this regard.

Which leaves coaches........Hummmm....OK please accept I am not saying these guys ( and ladies ) are in any way bad teachers , but I think you would be hard put to tell me there is not a different cultural perception of the PE staff to the Principalship in terms of both physique and attitude..

I suppose as someone who has directly managed institutions ( allbeit in the University sector) I look at this one from the point of legal 'risk'. . Now firstly in a court case a fit and strong PE instructor is seen (perceived) by a jury or judge as far more likely to have exceeded paddling norms than a 45 year old female Principal.Unfair but true. We have enough problems with 250lb out of condition males, being seen as 'hard' on a slight 16 year old , let alone a fit athletics coach that can throw the discus. Secondly, if coaches in the US are anything like PE staff in the UK, they have a reputation , fair or unfair, which travels before them ( just read the anti paddling story I referred to a while ago in TWP).maybe again unfair but it's a sociological fact

Think of the public reaction if a fit muscle bound football coach had replaced Steve Halter to paddle Miss Nancy?.

Compounding this is the fact that coaches are quite frankly unlikely to interact with the whole of the student body in the same manner or same extent as other teachers, and are unlikely to be as aware , or , lets be even more precise, unable to prove they are aware of changes and problems with students as are class teachers .In the UK it was unuasual to find coachesa s year or group tutors, personal tutors etc etc...House masters Yes , but again its sport and competition!

The whole nature of PE and sport ( let alone health and safety) makes it one of instruction not dialogue.. I think you only need to look at news reporting and complaints filed to see how this could be prejudicial to a school in the courts or even in a School board. They may be fine for the students who happily partake in sport, but for those to whom a football field might as well be the province of Indiana Jones ..............

But there are bad eggs..as in every area. ..In the UK the stories of Instructors who whacked ( officially or otherwise) all those who were late after a run, didn't get stuck in in rugby, couldn't climb a rope are a legion.(I saw it : i guess thousands of others did too). Perhaps it doesn't happen in the States, perhaps they are sympathetic to the physically challenged, and don't shout at the weak,or the overweight ...if so tell me your secret, because we sure could use some here! Spend 10 minutes on Yahoo corporal punishment reminiscences..and search under PE staff...or go to Friends Reunited.!

Of course administrators can be just as bad, or worse, but they are at least the part of the school expected to engage in this practice, and as such it is seen as an everyday expectation of the SMT or Principalship.

PE staff are appointed often to grab glory for the school on the athletic and football fields. They are there to enthuse, they push cajole and exhort as a part of their trade. They may be seen by the jocks as the best thing since sliced bread, but the perception of other students........ It may not be true , it may not be fair ( although in the UK its true that in the days of STOPP gym Instructors were pretty much top of the pops as one might have said on your side of the pond!)

I understand from a brief trawl of the anti cp zealots that's pretty true for you too...It may be as unfair as the reputation Spenser, but give a dog a bad name.......... Public perception is all , as any trial lawyer will tell you.

So as a prudent administrator I don't advertise for risk, as an educationalist I not only want to be fair and exhibit best practice , but also it is important that the perception in the community and on campus reflects this and I would advise any school to do the same . There is having principles and there is being foolhardy.. Pragmatically , you don't make a rod for your own back . .

Sorry American Way. ! Whilst we agree on the substantial matters, I respectfully suggest that on this issue it may well be we are going to have to differ.......

 
 
Renee

Re: Fr. Student, Teacher, & Principal

July 27 2009, 11:42 PM 

MEMO TO FORMER STUDENT, TEACHER & PRINCIPAL: We at TWP saw your comments at this forum and wonder: Are you really an educator? Your comments sound more like the typical anti-c.p. zealot. Educators can and do disagree on issues including c.p. but RESPECTFULLY. As to Rhode Island, we at TWP hope that the law in question was changed -Sixteen year olds have absolutely no business working as strippers. Our beef is that this issue ever came to light because it reflects poorly on a pretty state. I (Renee) have passed through Rhode Island on the acela express going to Boston. Finally,why don't you just send your comments/questions to TWP? We look forward to hearing from you soon!

 
 

Another_Lurker

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

July 27 2009, 11:49 PM 

Hi American Way again. You say of prof.n's perforated paddle:

The anti cp zealots use the paddle you show as the cruelest instrument and are explicitly forbidden in more and more handbooks so good luck advocating its use by either physics or personal experience.

Hmm, I wonder why this is. Let me put forward a few ideas, for and against. Purely theoretical, because I have never been paddled.

The holes may enable the paddle to be swung a little faster due to slightly lessened air resistance. Personally I would guess that in practice the effect would be similar to taking a run-up with a cane. Psychologically intimidating but adding very little to the velocity at impact. In any case the holes inevitably lighten the paddle, so even if the impact velocity was slightly higher, the transferred kinetic energy, and hence the pain, would probably be about the same.

No, I think the aversion to holes in a paddle is based on much darker reasons, on memories which have nothing to do with children being paddled in schools today. In the slave era in the USA, and on the Southern prison farms, the paddle was one of the implements used for punishment. Such punishments were applied to the naked buttocks. It was discovered that if holes were cut in the paddle the flesh would be compressed into the holes on impact and then drawn out and stretched as the paddle was lifted, adding to the pain and causing blistering which prolonged the painful after-effects of the punishment. A similar, though not exactly analogous effect is the cupping sometimes utilised as part of S&M practices.

I would be fairly sure that the application of a paddle with holes to clothed buttocks would not have this effect, unless the clothing was very thin. Certainly I think the almost universal jeans would prevent it, as the fairly dense and strong material stretched over the buttocks would nullify the effect completely. However, old fears die hard, particularly those ingrained under such traumatic and painful regimes, hence the prejudice against paddles with holes.

 
 

Re :Teachers Who Paddle

July 28 2009, 12:56 AM 


Another Lurker,

Interesting explanation. Certainly as I've said it didn't blister me , nor have I ever seen any school reports of this......


My friend said she used it because with a solid paddle there was a cushion of air which was resistance, so to overcome it you swung harder, making bruising more likely. So she said the holed paddles were actually kinder, and led to less force / bruising in the school situation.( in line with your suggestion)...and I guess she'd paddled enough to know.

Although the paddle hurt significantly and you felt a reminder for about 24 hours ( after 10 hard licks), there was really minimal bruising, far less than the cane would have inflicted with six of the best

She also said the bevelling on the holes ensured no extra bruising or blistering......and the paddle had absolutely no sharp edges , everything was rounded or bevelled.,varnished and very smooth. Actually a real craftsman like job unlike those from the woodwork shop.........

The whole paddle thing is tied up , of course with slavery, and the ideological side probably comes through strongly, ...and that's strong in Dixie. Don't for example, suggest that Texas only joined the Confederacy to supply, as I recall, beef and soldiers , but you can definitely argue that the Boston tea party was just a bunch of greedy mercantilist capitalists who wouldn't pay their taxes......

Then there is also all this fraternity paddling and hazing.....which I've never really understood at all , or wanted to.....

 
 
American Way

DON'T ASK ME TO EXPLAIN WHY

July 28 2009, 1:25 AM 

Male administrators more often than coaches paddle the boys and male administrators paddle girls and rarely without a professional female witness. For whatever reason there are fewer female administrators on the high school level so female coaches are sometimes called on to paddle girls and more so now than before these kinds of things raised eyebrows. The compound punishment is not a big issue over here. I enjoy healthy debates but the United States is so different it would be hard for us understand never mind agree. Without monopolizing these threads it might be a good idea that we both peruse the student disciplinary codes published in corpun and see what we like and dislike and see where a healthy debate can lead us. I will gladly forward a consensus view to TWP. Now pertaining to the gender of Megan Lowry suffice it to say the person pictured in Topix is the real McCoy and whatever is going on behind the scene in My Space is a fish of a different kettle. What a menagerie of perverted pen pals she has attracted. The top notch essay by style and content was not written by her or any other female. Its not beyond a reasonable doubt but it is more than just a reasonable surmise due to the preponderance of evidence but don't ask me to explain why. Now pertaining to physics I respectively disagree and refer you to this graphic but don't ask me to explain why.

[linked image]

http://www.topix.com/member/profile/meganlowry

 
 

Another_Lurker

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

July 28 2009, 2:38 AM 

Hi American Way, I take it that what you are saying is that Megan Lowry is indeed female but she didn't write the paddling essay.

Unless you choose to provide one I shall have to await one of my distinguished fellow contributors Mr Alan Turing or KK for an explanation of your graphic. It looks far too complex for me. Mr Turing and KK provided a very comprehensive account of the physics of caning in this thread commencing at 14:10 on 4 January 2009 and continuing over several posts thereafter. I am sure they will be able to give us a similar explanation of why a paddle hurts!

Anyone following the above exposition of the pain of caning is advised that Soooze, who makes frequent appearances therein, is a fictitious character invented by one of our fellow contributors to exploit my well known sympathy for young ladies who have been so unfortunate as to be caned. happy.gif

 
 
American Way

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

July 28 2009, 5:16 AM 

Some say that the air to weight ratio is defeated since a significant amount of more air passes through the space between the paddle and its target so the paddle travels faster when punishment strokes are being applied. That doesnt make sense to me because the speed of a paddle traveling such a short distance is not increased by drilling holes through the paddle, unless perhaps they are HUGE holes! Even then, the increase in speed is barely measurable, and its unlikely the student would feel the difference! The increased sting (isnt that the purpose of the whole exercise) of drilling holes is to prevent air being trapped between wood and skin (or clothing) on impact. So the maximum area of wood strikes the target, and delivers maximum sting. With a blade about 3 inches wide, the amount of air trapped on contact would be considerable this preventing the paddle making full contact. With holes drilled, the air escapes and the paddle oncreasing contact and impact. Ir's common sense and doesn't take rocket science to know that anything that cuts down that cushion of air will make a better contact and more of the impact is delivered into the flesh.

Teachers knew that without opening a physics book and the plantation owners that when they paddle so they would leave less of a tell tale signs than the lash before an auction. Catch this it comes from a site called frost bedroom secrets. Does that mean you have to whisper ouch? The principals paddle looked a lot like this 24" long, 2 1/2" wide and 3/8" thick. It seemed longer and thinner than I expected. More like a ruler than my conception of a paddle. I think it was thinner but the length, the width and the holes were about right. She didnt hang it in the office but kept it in a drawer usually except after school. It could cover the whole bottom and seemed relatively thin enough to sting quite a bit without inflicting undue damage. And for twenty bucks what a deal!!

[linked image]

 
 
Alan Turing

On request!

July 28 2009, 8:49 AM 

Why does a paddle hurt?

Well, if we restrict ourselves to impacts which affect only flesh (as opposed to bone) then we can say that the pain comes from the distortion of the flesh. This is measured by a mathematical gizmo called the "strain tensor", and the cause of the distortion is measured by a similar gizmo called the "stress tensor". Think of "stress" as something like a force, and "strain" as the resulting distortion.

The type of strain produced by a paddle is essentially compression. It isn't just a matter of the kinetic energy, because a very heavy, very slow paddle (with lots of energy) would allow the compression to dissipate before causing much pain. So high speed is important. I imagine that the slightly higher speed caused by the reduction of air resistance due to holes would outweigh the reduction in weight, but this would need a calculation.

Also, don't forget that the paddle is not a free-moving object. It's connected to a hand, which is connected to an arm, which is ... So the paddle doesn't slow down as a free-moving object would. That's another reason why weight is less important. (The rigidity of the paddle is important here, as it moves at the same speed as the arm.)

To do the analysis properly, you'd need information about the arm movement and the elastic properties of the flesh in the buttocks!

BTW, a cane works differently. There isn't that much compression, because the area of impact is much smaller. Instead, there's a tearing effect as the flesh which hasn't been hit is pulled inwards by the flesh beneath the impact. There's a similar effect around the edge of a paddle, but it's much smaller because, comparatively, the paddle moves at a lower speed.

 
 
American Way

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

July 28 2009, 12:58 PM 

The stress and strain factors brings back memories of my molecular physics class with my study of matricies (not disciplinary ones) and in anatomical matters the sins of my flesh. Imagine if you were stationed on a continent where both instruments (paddle and cane) were used and you were the only one assigned to that onerous task could you speedily weigh in what "specs" you would send to the woodwork teacher?

 
 
Alan Turing

Stress and Strain Tensors

July 28 2009, 5:09 PM 

Yes indeed; you can think of these tensors as 3 x 3 matrices, and so symbolically they would be written something like Aij with the indices i and j running from 1 to 3.

But enough of that. What spec would I give the woodwork teacher? I'm not sure exactly what the question is here, but if I were designing a paddle then I suppose I would want it to cause pain while minimising deep bruising.

I guess the worst bruising would occur if the paddle were still moving very fast when the flesh reached its limit of compressibility. So the ideal would be a paddle which could have a high speed on impact, but which would slow down quite quickly. That suggests a fairly light paddle, so that the continued movement is that forced by the arm rather than by the dissipating kinetic energy. But I'd want the paddle to be as rigid as possible, so that the initial surface-layer compression was as rapid as possible. And small holes to reduce air resistance would help. Having rounded corners would reduce the tearing effect I mentioned when talking about canes.

And talking about canes -- I don't think woodwork teachers design those!

 
 
American Way

Paddles

July 28 2009, 6:58 PM 

Alan Touring: Dimensions are often designated like hole free or 20 inch by 4 inch and half inch thick. We are bereft of a key variable (kg) and rigidity but lets base it as best one can by prof n paddle and compare it with the one I posted for 33 quid and designated ones assuming five licks and the same paddler. Which works best? Theoretical physics (like my classical mechanics course) and Math I aced but found them boring for without defined variables why bother. Physics involves struggle for me but thats real world where I get more Bs than As in and out of college. No offense Alan I have has a BS but you must have at least a Masters but youre down to earth so you dont pile it on high and dry like some PHDs.s

 
 

paddles

July 28 2009, 10:46 PM 

A very interesting set of posta.....


Just another variable to to put into the mix....the holes on the paddle I received were bevelled. This I understand affects the dynamic properties of the paddle both in terms of air dynamics and effect on impact. The holes on the back of the paddle ( clearly marked 'do not use ' are about three quarters the apparent size you can see on of the front ( active) face , meaning there is a tunnel effect which is quite considerable .

Another thought . This paddle was used when my friend returned to the States as Principal of a High School for around twenty to 25 years years..... So , as the school was large , say she paddled 10 times a week, say forty weeks a year that's 10,,000 students or say average of four swats..... ( would be higher in the early period) say 40,000 swats , plus those when a VP etc say at least 50,000 swats and the paddle is still, like Miss Jean Brodie, in its prime...... She never had one even informal complaint of excessive force or wrongful paddling ,no one ever even needed to see the school nurse.... so the zealots have a hard case to prove the holes provide any substantive grounds for seeing the instrument as abusive......if the risk is less than 1 in 50,000.........

 
 

Another_Lurker

Re: On request!

July 29 2009, 1:29 AM 

Hi Alan Turing. Thank you for responding to my request, and for, as always, a very full and comprehensive description of the principles involved. I am very relieved to find that you are still perusing this estimable Forum. I began to fear that you had ceased to do so, which, for me at least, would be cause to contemplate doing likewise!

 
 

Another_Lurker

Origins and undesirable associations of those paddle holes

July 29 2009, 2:54 AM 

Hi American Way and prof.n. I had the feeling that you were both a little dubious about my explanation for the longstanding undesirable image of paddles with holes. At the time I posted the above explanation regarding slavery associations, where paddles with holes were used to ensure blistering, I was posting from memory. I have just checked to see that I had my facts right.

This Google search will find you plenty of references.

The practice seems to have been to use a paddle with holes to raise blisters then, if this was felt to be insufficient punishment, to burst the blisters using a leather thonged whip. Charming people!

A few quotes:

A wooden paddle was used more as immediate and unplanned punishment .Also the holes in the paddle would cause HUGE blisters. Not only a paddle was used. The overseers had a cattail, and it had nine long strips of leather and knots spaced a long the strips.This was used not only to brutally beat the slaves , but it also popped the huge blisters given by the wooden paddle.

After the Civil War, David Hunt's son Dunbar wrote that Hunt had been "kind" to his slaves. It went on to say that Hunt would fire an overseer at the first hint of cruelty. A slave narrative tells that Hunt participated in beating the slaves. It says that the slaves were hit with wooden paddles with holes in them. The holes would cause blisters to form on the slaves bodies after the beatings.

But dey be some niggahs he whip good an' hard. If dey sass back, er try t' run away, he mek 'em cross dey han's lak dis; den he pull 'em up, so dey toes jes' tetch de ground'; den he smack 'em crost de back an' rump wid a big wood paddle, fixed full o' holes. Know what dem holes be for? Ev'y hole mek a blister. Den he mek 'em lay down on de groun', whilst he bus' all dem blisters wid a rawhide whip.

Folk memories of that type are very long-lasting, hence the current unsavoury reputation of paddles with holes!

 
 
American Way

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

July 29 2009, 4:24 AM 

Paddle
June 8 2009 at 11:57 AM American Way

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A historical site on slavery the South and the history of the paddle gleaned.

http://nationalhumanitiescenter.org/pds/maai/enslavement/text2/slaveauctions.pdf


 
 

Another_Lurker

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

July 29 2009, 5:32 AM 

Oh dear, I do hope I have not earned myself a paddling. Not only have I completely failed to realise that I was making the 100th post in this thread, I have been so slow to spot this that another post has intervened before I could make amends by posting the traditional salute to a thread reaching the 100 mark. My apologies, and my congratulations to American Way, whose thread this is.

To celebrate the thread's century I thought we'd have a little tribute to someone who must now be one of the world's most famous 'Teachers Who Paddle', Mr Steve Halter, former Principal of Booneville High School Arkansas, and his tardy student Nancy Guillen, the then Miss Booneville. So here goes!
One tardy too many:  The interview!
One tardy too many: The interview!

Apprehension!
Apprehension!

Examining the paddle.
Examining the paddle.

Am I really going to get my bottom whacked with this?
Am I really going to get my bottom whacked with this?

The moment of truth:  Your turn, Nancy!
The moment of truth: Your turn, Nancy!

Afterwards the little bow to the witness.
Afterwards the little bow to the witness.

And it's all over.
And it's all over.

Except for the residual sting!
Except for the residual sting!


 
 

Another_Lurker

Those holes in paddles again.

July 29 2009, 6:08 AM 

From the National Humanities Centre PDF, posted by American way above:

He would then have his paddle brought, which was a board about two feet in length and one inch in thickness, having fourteen holes bored through it, about an inch in circumference. This instrument of torture he would apply until the slave was exhausted, on parts which the purchaser would not be likely to examine. This mode of punishment is considered one of the most cruel ever invented, as the flesh protrudes through these holes at every blow, and forms bunches and blisters the size of each hole, causing much lameness and soreness to the person receiving them.

I would refer you to my post at 23:49 on 27 July 2009 above, reiterate that this is why paddles with holes are still disliked and regarded as unsuitable for school use in the South, and rest my case, m'lud! happy.gif

 
 
Alan Turing

Holes

July 29 2009, 8:08 AM 

I commented earlier about a cane extending the flesh, while a paddle compressed the flesh. I also said that there would be some extension around the edge of the paddle.

With large holes, this extending effect will be apparent around the edge of each hole, and the fact that the hole is concave will result in a combination of extending and compressing which could result in the blisters mentioned. Small holes would not have this effect.

I've also had a rather more tentative thought, concerning secondary-age boys and girls. At that age, girls will have more fleshy buttocks than boys. So the compression effect of a paddle on a girl will be reduced slightly, as the paddle travels a greater distance before coming to rest; you might say there was "more padding" to reduce the pain. But because a cane works in a different way, there is a greater distance for the flesh to be stretched before the cane comes to rest; so there's an argument that, other things being equal, a cane will hurt more on a girl than on a boy.

I've no idea whether that's true or not! But it is at least a plausible argument.

 
 
American Way

He gives me the Creeps

July 29 2009, 1:01 PM 

The blister issue was somewhat addressed withis quote: "I would be fairly sure that the application of a paddle with holes to clothed buttocks would not have this effect, unless the clothing was very thin. Certainly I think the almost universal jeans would prevent it, as the fairly dense and strong material stretched over the buttocks would nullify the effect completely." Alan, between prof n and my paddle which would you choose. Lastly for the Nancy photos where do you come by these and thank you for your congratulations but I think you should be complimeneted more for your wizadry with your photo documentary. Where did you come by that? Si many posts!!! What's next TWC? Both intruments seem to achieve the purpose they were designed but I'm not sure which one achieves the purpose why they were designed first!!!

Would it be too difficult to place the apprehension photo with the latest Katrika photo taken from from yesterday's link and posting them on the courage to submit thread. Katrika's courage was not appealing not for being a risk taker for drinking one. That can of risk I have taken but was never caught albeit the penaties were less draconian unless they involved drinking and driving and they're are probably countries that flog for that. I would take a gentle Muslim flogging over Dr Dominum's caning judging from the Aceh province flogging. Will Colin Farrel be on site for the public flogging and would Dr Dominum allow a television crew into her office. BRW I never noticed what you regerred to as a bow to the witness but that wasn't my impression. It seemed like a moment of "compusuring" before she faced the cameras judging by Steve Halter comforting hand touching Nancy. In my state you would lose your job for that as a teacher and behind bars for paddling and some members of this estimable Forum I'm sure think he should. Steve Halter comforting gave me me the creeps withe letting her touch the paddle and his expression when he led her into his office for her paddling. Definte woman should paddle girls of possible!!!

 
 
American Way

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

July 29 2009, 9:49 PM 

prof n The only paddles that are said to be hanging from the same wall for generations more than classrooms are paddles for hazing. Conventional wisdom is sometimes good to heed. People have wanted paddles that sting more and injure less since caveman days because that was the intention behind their design. IMHO that's why diciplinary and school fraternity padddles are remarkably similar except the make believe larger than life ones seen on home videos and photos. often seen Arguably college age kids are consenting adults OTOH teens are more vulnerable to rejection and often these societies involves housing with a more home like enviroment than a dorm. when they first leave home. The upperclassman act like big brothers and big sisters. It is an interesting comment about the female padding advantage. There should be some comfort in knowing that they have a double advantage because fraternity paddles are usually an 1/8 of an inch thinner. Disciplined feminists take note.


 
 
American Way

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

July 29 2009, 10:11 PM 

Pertaning to your excellent photo documentary I think she likes Steve Halter and is upset that Nancy got paddled and she didn't. You think?

It was an excellent documentary, no doubt--but I don't know if I emmulate her. I mean, I think she's a brat, and I think that 3 swats were nothing compaired to what she needed. She liked to think that because she was attractive, she required more leeway than someone who wasn't, and instead of blow-drying, or waking up early to do so--they got their ass to class. Classic teenage egotism. Also, I think she was WAY too happy after the paddling. This is what I took away from it when she said, "Oh, it wasn't too bad"... I heard, "Now that I know how not bad it is, I'll just sleep in on Monday, too." A good punishment is supposed to frighten you away from doing bad, so I don't think she got a good punishment. As the person before me said: She will be paddled again. In fact, probably for the same thing.

But I do really like the principal. He was a good male-role model and punishment-dealer. He actively listened to her, he made it seem like he cared--but he was unwavering. That, I really liked. Thanks for sharing that with us!


 
 

hazing

July 29 2009, 11:02 PM 

I had a trawl through corpun to see what I could find about holes in paddles ...not all on the topic but these eextracts caught my eye.....

Hi American way , thanks for the posting. To open with a quote from corpun:

----------------------------------------------

Tennessee 2001

He's gone now, and so is Curly White. Curly, a junior high teacher with a paddle that hung prominently in his classroom, had a reputation for particularly painful paddlings.
That wasn't hard to believe if you'd seen his paddle. It was carved from a hickory tree that had been struck by lightning, and was about a half-inch thick. The wide, "business" end of the paddle had holes drilled through it to add some sting to the swats.

-----------------------------------------------


I did once and only once come across hazing , actually in the UK. I became Pro VC (Senior manager/ deputy chief Executive) of a University here which is virtually all 'campus residential' , very much like some U.S. Institutions. They had 'aped' American fraternities ( I won't identify the university because , due to some nifty footwork, it avoided the national press at the time ). . They had a hazing night . I had the dubious honour as the senior male manager ( we had a female Vice chancellor) of being on duty. I stayed dressed in my campus accommodation that night......I anticipated being called......


Half past midnight there was pandemonium. Some male students ( Jocks) had abducted some 'pledges' and were paddling them severely...then throwing them in the lake.......not with 1/8 inch paddles..I stress....no way, they hadn't bought any , so they substituted cricket bats.......moreover there was a girl naked in the shower , in floods of tears, both in shock and hyperventilating surrounded by her friends who were alleging attempted rape......and lots and lots of beer , vodka and the rest.......

I was up all night , medical attention , campus security, police, arrests........and a phalanx of angry parents to assuage. Eventually it settled down , the charge of attempted rape was dropped, no forensic, and both parties were so intoxicated it was difficult to get a straight story , and the others were minor charges of assault dealt with by police caution. and/or me reading the riot act- ( they were lucky ; on Dr. D's recent scale it should have been between ABH and GBH).None of the students had more than tissue bruising , though I bet a teacher would have been in court for much less.

The consequences on campus. Well yours truly became the big bad wolf. All the protagonist students were sent down for between a term and a year . (some reprieved on appeal against my advice),and the fraternity night was banned with permanent exclusion for any future breach........

Oh and I was portrayed in the local paper as a real spoil sport.

So I'm a bit jaundiced on this one............


Anyway to finish. My 10 stroke paddling can't constitute abuse compared to this pretty contemporaneous act, Thanks to corpun again.!!!!


----------------------------------------

Florida 1977


In recent years, paddling has come under scrutiny by parents who have claimed that a length of wood applied to the seat of the pants can constitute "cruel and unusual punishment."
One such case involved severe paddlings given to pupils in a Dade County junior high school. One student received more than 50 swats with a paddle for making an obscene phone call.
----------------------------------------

 
 

Another_Lurker

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

July 29 2009, 11:36 PM 

Hi Alan Turing. You say:

so there's an argument that, other things being equal, a cane will hurt more on a girl than on a boy.

I've no idea whether that's true or not! But it is at least a plausible argument.


It is indeed a plausible argument, and one that I have no doubt is correct.

 
 

Another_Lurker

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

July 30 2009, 12:59 AM 

Hi American Way. In your 13:01 post above you say:

Lastly for the Nancy photos where do you come by these and thank you for your congratulations but I think you should be complimeneted more for your wizadry with your photo documentary. Where did you come by that?

The photographs are screen grabs from one of the many videos extant on YouTube. I'm afraid that the extensive (and in some cases rather petty) restrictions that Network54 place on embedded HTML completely preclude any wizardry here. Only the very simplest of HTML can be used, with limited CSS and no self entered scripting. Long long ago when the Web began to be accessible to the public I became fascinated by how web pages worked, which led in turn to producing websites for myself and others, which I do if the theme interests me.

You ask:

Would it be too difficult to place the apprehension photo with the latest Katrika photo taken from from yesterday's link and posting them on the courage to submit thread?

It would be ludicrously easy and I shall do so for you later tonight.

You also ask:

would Dr Dominum allow a television crew into her office?

I am sure Doctor Dominum can (and possibly will) speak for himself, but for the record I believe Doctor Dominum to be male! As for the TV crew, Steve Halter, quite rightly, did not allow the TV crew into his office during an actual padding, of Nancy or anyone else.

You further remark:

BTW I never noticed what you referred to as a bow to the witness but that wasn't my impression. It seemed like a moment of "composuring" before she faced the cameras.

We'll have to agree to differ on that one. Despite single framing through the incident I could not capture a still which adequately reflected the video sequence. What I, and from comments I saw elsewhere other people, saw was a little half bow to someone in the room. We took that to be an acknowledgment of the witness. I am sure that Mr Halter would not paddle students without a witness, and I assume that in Nancy's case the witness was female. I would imagine that if one had suffered the embarassment of being paddled in front of a witness the tendency, if composure permitted, would be to try to make light of the incident. Difficult to do this with the authority figure who has wielded the paddle, rather easier with the witness, where a smile and an exaggerated courtesy would appear to say 'see, it didn't bother me very much'. In any event, excellent for the TV camera when the door was opened and in keeping with the attitude the script required of Nancy when exiting from the office.

In your 22:11 post above you say:

Pertaning to your excellent photo documentary I think she likes Steve Halter and is upset that Nancy got paddled and she didn't.

You've baffled me on this one I'm afraid. Who is the 'she' who likes Steve Halter and is upset not to have received a paddling like Nancy?

You also say:

I think she was WAY too happy after the paddling.

I take it we are referring to Nancy this time. There are dreadful cynics out there, possibly even a few of them on this estimable Forum, who believe that she wasn't paddled at all, or at least not during any of the TruTV sequences. However, earnest seekers after the truth like myself believe implicitly that when we saw her called into Mr Halter's office it was to bend over the desk for three extremely hard swats of that formidable paddle, the impressive impacts of which we heard on the video sound track through the closed door of the office. And, as we say in the UK, pigs might fly! happy.gif

 
 
American Way

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

July 30 2009, 3:43 AM 

I don't think the school would let the television crew enter the office. Although some may say she hammed it up there was no phony or funny business going on in there. The witness may have had to sign a form along with the principal and the student and like the scene will live on for perpetuity in the archives of the Arkansas DOE along with other earth shaking events occurring in Booneville. IMHO the parents acted stupidly to allow this to be filmed and should have known that their surname would become public because of the fame afforded their during her one year reign as Miss Boonville.

She was not bowing. I differ with you and I wouldn't give mich credence to what others have said. Thet are not of the caliber of this esteem Forum. She probably was given a brief respite after her ordeal. She was a good sport and it would be only good form on their part. The principal and witness are busy people and have pressing obligations and may not have found her bowing amusing judging by Halter's parting comment. Remember the witness (I assume she) works for him. Strangely enough her posture almost seems as if she is stepping into her sneakers after putting back her jeans over her gym clothes but that is as unlikely as her being asked to take them off so she wouldn't kick him in the you know where.

The quoted comment can be found just Google courage to submit an unlikely role model and Korey's comment is the 5th comment or just cache Korey. I must say I find these folks very strange but different strokes for different folks judging by the name of the adult content website. I don't know what her game is and I don't want to find out about it so my guess is as good as yours about her feelings but It's fun to specualte. It's strange what places you're led to when you're trying to find out about that scene.

 
 

Another_Lurker

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

July 30 2009, 4:42 AM 

Ah, thank you, American Way, I have it now. Ms Korey has commented on the 'Disciplined Feminist' essay on Nancy Guillen. May I very respectfully suggest that attributing your quotes might avoid similar confusion in the future.

I shall watch the various versions of Nancy exiting from the Principal's Office again, and maybe link a clip just of the 'bow'. It certainly struck me as a deliberate gesture to some invisible person in the room and, as I say, others interpreted it the same way. Sadly I cannot provide a link to their quotes as the forum concerned was deleted by Network54.

You say:

Strangely enough her posture almost seems as if she is stepping into her sneakers after putting back her jeans over her gym clothes

Tut tut, American Way. We are dealing here with a paddling administered in the American way by Principal Steve Halter not a caning administered in the Rodney School, Kirklington, Notts, UK way by Headmistress Ms Joan Thomas! happy.gif

 
 


Re: Teachers Who Paddle

July 30 2009, 10:10 AM 

Will Colin Farrel be on site for the public flogging and would Dr Dominum allow a television crew into her office.

First of all, for clarification and the avoidance of doubt, I am a him, not a her.

Interesting timing on this question as it is, actually, the subject of considerable discussion here at the moment. A documentary film crew has asked to do a series of documentaries on the elite schools of Victoria (in a somewhat similar approach to the documentary on Kings School in Sydney done a few years ago) and collectively and with some trepidation we've decided to give them the opportunity to do it. They will come into the schools one at a time for a period of a couple of weeks I believe and try and film the life of the school. We've agreed to this to try and demystify ourselves a bit - we are somewhat closed communities and somewhat misunderstood ones and it's considered desirable by many that we address that. The crews want as close to total access as can be reasonably arranged, and when it comes to our school one of the things they are definitely interested in is looking at our use of corporal punishment. Lots of discussions with our lawyers, etc, about what can and can't reasonably be shown. And, honestly, legally speaking, there's not a great deal that can't be shown. There's strictly speaking no reason why they could not film a caning and broadcast that, if we allowed it (ethically, they should have the consent of the boy involved, but legally, they apparently wouldn't even need that). I can't see how it could possibly happen in a way that isn't artificial to the point of being totally inaccurate as a representation of how things really work (or at least I can't see a situation that is likely to arise where that could happen), but, hypothetically speaking, if I didn't allow it, would I also be guilty of covering something up that it could be argued is in my interests to cover up.

Objectively speaking, part of me would also like to see a caning accurately shown on television mainly because so many people seem to have quite an exagerated, sometimes even warped idea of what is really involved, and quite a few of the opponents of corporal punishment seem to be very willing, in my view, to exploit children in order to make their points, secure in the knowledge that people on my side of the argument aren't in a position to reply in kind (ie, these groups that put images of paddled bottoms, covered on bruises on the internet with the suggestion that they represent the norm, know very well that those of us who support corporal punishment would be viewed as doing something wrong, even to the point of perversion, if we put up similar images showing realistically what is normal and average. They seem to be allowed to get away with using images of children in that way. We never would.

(I get accused of being a pervert because I posted innocent messages on an e-mail group that somebody else posted a perverted message on - but those on the other side can post images of childrens of bare backsides and that's apparently entirely kosher. I don't understand it, but this seems to be the way a lot of people's minds work).

 
 
American Way

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

July 30 2009, 1:46 PM 

Can't agree with you more on that and hope for her sake the strokes are given like the caning of seven of the best from Aceh Province. How does that rate of the worse of the six of the best? THe consistence of the sentence between the two genders is in accord with school punishment now. With of course without the slight change in target. Not a good move for her for saftety sake.

"Objectively speaking, part of me would also like to see a caning accurately shown on television mainly because so many people seem to have quite an exagerated, sometimes even warped idea of what is really involved, and quite a few of the opponents of corporal punishment seem to be very willing, in my view, to exploit children in order to make their points, secure in the knowledge that people on my side of the argument aren't in a position to reply in kind (ie, these groups that put images of paddled bottoms, covered on bruises on the internet with the suggestion that they represent the norm, know very well that those of us who support corporal punishment would be viewed as doing something wrong, even to the point of perversion, if we put up similar images showing realistically what is normal and average. They seem to be allowed to get away with using images of children in that way. We never would."

 
 
American Way

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

July 31 2009, 3:33 AM 

With reference to Dr Dominum paragraph that I copy/pasted in the above posting of this thread I would recommend our readers to check out a similar POV from TWP March 14th called the "Nancy Proposal". Their POV certainly dovetails in this regard for the same reasons. I don't think her paddling was as brutal as one of the posters wrote on this thread from the sounds may make it worse than it really was? ave you ever ouched when you've stubbed a toe? I would appreciate some of his impressions from Dr Dominum about whether televising that paddling would give anti cp zealot a better idea of what it's like or at least have less fall for their hysteria.

All this talk of whether she was paddled or it was shadow boxing reminds me of 40 years ago when conspiracy theorists said the lunar vehicle was staged in Arizona and the flag wouldn't be waving because there was no wind on the moon. But there sure was a lot of wind blowing elsewhere.

 
 

Another_Lurker

Moon Landings

July 31 2009, 3:52 AM 

Hi American Way. You say:

All this talk of whether she was paddled or it was shadow boxing reminds me of 40 years ago when conspiracy theorists said the lunar vehicle was staged in Arizona and the flag wouldn't be waving because there was no wind on the moon. But there sure was a lot of wind blowing elsewhere.

Lotta nonsense said in this post on 17 October 2004:

If the above anecdote were true, it would be very funny indeed.

Sadly, the entire story is apocryphal.

Neil Armstrong made no reference to a Mr Gorsky at any time.

Also, he's never been anywhere near the moon and neither has any other human being.


It is therefore beyond doubt that the moon landings were indeed faked. happy.gif

 
 
Renee (TWP Editor)

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

August 11 2009, 2:58 AM 

ATTENTION NETWORK54 COMMUNITY: There is a page set up by someone unconnected to TWP asking What do you think about the Teachers Who Paddle Weblog/"

This is the address:

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index;_ylt=Am

There are only four days to send comments -So send them soon! Take care!

 
 
Big John Answers

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

August 11 2009, 8:09 AM 

I am unable to get the link in the above post from Renee to work. Perhaps the question has been deleted?

In the TWP blog entry of August 10, our Honorary Life Member, Bathing Suit Areas Paula, gets a special mention.


 
 

Renee's link

August 11 2009, 10:47 AM 



I agree with 'Big John' the link seems to have vapourised !!!

Interestingly I did get redirected to a number of questions of the type ' would you allow a teacher to paddle your kid' 5 minutes looking at the answers taught me one thing...what a cool rational debate it wasn't !...

If anyone WERE to have such a problem with a school what should be their first port of call?

Talk to the teacher/Principal? Nope! Ask your child how they feel? Not for the anti's. Most popular response was If anyone even mentions a paddle, no discussion, WIHHDRAW AND HOMESCHOOL.

Now that's what I call a moderate , sensible, reasonable, thought through , middle of the road response to the mere MENTION of a paddle ? Oh! and no consideration of the fact your kid would have to misbehave, probably after several warnings, before actually being paddled!

 
 
Renee (TWP Editor)

"Bad News" on answers.yahoo

August 12 2009, 12:03 AM 

It has come to the attention of TWP that the person who created the "answers.yahoo" post is a teacher named Becky. Also, Yahoo "censored" her post and it is no longer accessible. (Hey, Yahoo -This is the U.S.A., not China!)

To see Becky's message to TWP, just go to our most recent post at

http://teacherswhopaddle.wordpress.com

Take care, Network54 community!

Sincerely,
Renee

 
 
Renee (TWP Editor)

Update

August 13 2009, 3:42 AM 

Hello again

A quick update: The web page I mentioned above is up again. Not sure if the link I gave y'all works but it was on my site's incoming links {aka referrals}. Don't know how long the web page will stay up though.But it is up and has one comment.

Yahoo must have backed off!

I guess Yahoo couldn't take the heat!

 
 
Brian

TWP August 15 - AWESOME!

August 17 2009, 8:49 PM 

Read all abaht it!


Paddlin' Renee promoted to Assistant Intern Principal Intern Assistant in County Middle School!


Paula 'Bathing Suit Areas' Flowe denounced as 'race-baiter'!


PLUS pan pizza and the central office frig!


And a piece from this Forum by Prof Nev on that Texican VP!


Coming soon:


What goes on in the Assistant School Principal's Intern County School Office Middle School!


Those Renee PADDLE INSPECTIONS in full!


And lots more!


 
 
prof.n

Renee's posts re Yahoo

August 17 2009, 9:23 PM 



Here is the link as was tonight 21.20 local (BST) It was working ....for now :


http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index;_ylt=AmZrRxaRQWd8MraiuqXWiW0jzKIX;_ylv=3?qid=20090810125441AARva5y



 
 
Research Assistant 2

Critics' Corner

September 25 2009, 3:42 PM 

Two women who are very much at odds with those teacherswhopaddle are Texican 'AustinTXGal' and 'sheryl'.

http://itdawnedonme.wordpress.com/2009/02/10/kids-in-school-getting-an-education-plus-a-beating/

Their comments start at half way down the page.

 
 
American Way

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

September 25 2009, 4:26 PM 

I bet you TWP have the kids behaving better. How often do you hear respectful address and please and thank you from kids in the non paddling states? At work it's a dead give away upon introduction because a southerner looks you in eye when shaking hands. Behavioral expectations are higher so there is stricter discipline.

Parents in the non paddling states (30 states) resort to timeouts on the home front and solely school detentions and soon there will be intrusions into the home with banns there as well. In the south it's time outs and spanking and paddlings as well argue as you may the age limits.

Teachers are at a disadvantage because there are more kids in the classroom with kids under different roofs and rules but in school there are matrices that apply to all. There are stricter rules in MS than there are in MA just read the handbooks. Matrices are written to establish a middle ground in classroom management within reason.

What's the long and short. Southern parents' home management has tighter controls and it's manifested in behavior and manners. The northern "you can't make me attitude" kid would never submit to a paddling. It's my childs bathing suit area so I'll sue the pants off you if you lay one finger it. And of course the parents don't with a paddle and won't with an exemption form.

I'm too old to be paddled has an echo of I'm too old to be spanked. Soon parents and teachers will be mandated designated reports to law enforcement officer. Spanking and paddling are not slavery. The stubbornness of the confederacy may save our union or the American Way. Just ask the southern belles (I'm kidding) of TWP and I'm sure their kids are saying please and thank you. I'm very interested in Miranda's progress. I will be surprised if she will be getting another paddling and that is saying a lot just a month or so after the school year began.

 
 
American Way

FYI

October 5 2009, 7:51 PM 

October 3, 2009 by teacherswhopaddle

PROF. N COMMENTS/TWP RESPONDS

 
 
American Way

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

October 20 2009, 8:00 AM 

I can find nothing unsafe or unreasonable in the position described or the time afforded Megan or Amanda in the Board of Education linked for the zillionth time below. Megan Lowry has a fetish for sure but there is more than a kernel of truth in her essay.

Renee (if you are out there reading) maybe my arithmetic may be wrong but her account would have occurred close to the time you were going to school. But you wouldn't be that bad a girl that you would need correction or an attitude adjustment. You may have been clever enough not to be caught and knowing those skills may have served you in good stead. The girls from where I went to graduate school in Maryland were from the South and they didn't mind gentle teasing in the seventies.

Would this estimable Forum consider these teachers for honorary membership? If Paula Flowe can be a member why not them?

I am sure the Office Civil Rights (OCR) if they do not succeed to bann it will soon be doing random paddle inspections found below. happy.gif

http://kelyannsmith.livejournal.com/11760.html




 
 
prof.n

From the Australian post on Tammy 22nd Oct.

October 23 2009, 1:19 AM 


Hi American way

To return this thread to where it ought to be , could you explain, please, exactly what you meant by the following . I hope I am wrong with my interpretation.

Paddling an unwilling student is a no brainer. Dr Dominum aborts caning from his running lists.

One thing that EVERY Principal or VP I spoke to in the South on this last visit was unanimous about was that it is dangerous to paddle an unwilling student.

Dangerous for the physical and mental well being of the student :
Dangerous for the Privcipal/VP ( Court action because unwilling paddling can be interpreted as a breach of the state indemnity laws which protect teachers from civil action.
Dangerous for the school in that it crosses the line from punishemnt into abuse.

Now as to aborted punishments. Doctor Dominum's position is identical, as I understand it , to that adopted in schools throughout the US with a reasonable system. A missed or wrongly stuck blow is immediate cause to abort the punishment and forgo any remaining strokes ( licks).

I read, hopefully entirely wrongly, that you were saying the opposite : that to paddle an unwilling student was a no brainer, ie easy. If that were so it would, of course, be the most dangerous and wrong headed thing that a teacher can do.

The 'no brainer' I hope you meant is if a student won't comply - suspend.But I think in a matrix most students would have an option , and since the 70's enlightened schools have been recognizing the futility of restraint ( see the internal memo I posted on October 4th under CP Part 1 as an example).

Could you be kind enough to clarify, I realize you were leaving for a meeting and therefore the phrase may have been written quickly without proof reading ,as I frequently do ; therefore being open to wrong interpretation. Many Thanks.



 
 
American Way

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

October 23 2009, 2:45 AM 

A no brainer (as you hoped) in the states would mean it doesn't take a brain to figure out that you don't paddle an unwilling student for a number of obvious reasons. I would under this circumstance have no brain to differ with you.

 
 
Renee (TWP Editor)

Re: Kellyannsmith "story"

October 23 2009, 3:16 AM 

Hi American Way & others:

I decided to read the "paddling story" and it has some MAJOR problems. First, the "next day" paddling. I can not fathom paddling a student the day AFTER the offense. (My next blog coming up will touch on this)Second, mixing "writing lines" with a paddling -This is the first time I ever heard of such. Third, the severity of the paddling with a "break" between #4 and #5 gives me pause. And with that -Bruising? Finally, asking if MEG wanted to "sign the paddle"? In the school where I am assistant principal, that "tradition" does not exist and if it did -I would eliminate it because paddling is not a game.

While probably fiction, the story seems abusive -at least by the bruises mentioned.Tobacco use should not be a paddling offense.However, in my blog post to be published in a few days, there is a segment about a paddling I gave this week that was quite severe AND WELL DESERVED.

As to myself: Had I brought a note home like Meg -There would have been NO need for that stupid paddle! The next a.m., that note might have stated "Renee's rear end is in NO condition for paddle swats. My stap's bite is far worse than any school paddle.

I can testify to momma's strapping technique!

And one last thing -If story occurred in 1993, I would have benn 14 and potentially under momma's strap.

 
 
American Way

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

October 23 2009, 3:17 PM 

Hi: Renee et al Megan Lowry's essay was written to be a fictional essay with this one being less likely or more like the stars all aligning than the perfect storm. She is somewhat unique but aren't we all?

Megan Lowry Mayberry Jct., North Carolina


 
 
American Way

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

October 27 2009, 4:20 PM 

Shelley Gahsperson of Dunn North Carolina received the most public case surrounding corporal punishment in 1981 and Renee was born circa 1989 so many of the precautions surrounding the likelihood of swift retribution had become more difficult to implement in schools around her time but not necessarily at her school. It is one thing to paddle an elementary school student where less rights are afforded such as due process and and time to consider choices (c.f. Nancy Guillen). I'm not sure if Nasia was given any other choice by Renee other than being arrested or was that choice already made by the time she came on the scene?

The issue of double jeopardy as in Momma's strap and the school paddle was touched upon by her 10:23 at 3:16 posting. Yahoo deals with a young cheat and double jeapardy. The respondents on the whole were not in favor nor would we be as parents who infrequently spanked in the first place for a number of reasons peculiar to our situation. I wonder if this has caning similarities from your experiences of the cane in the UK or has this topic been broached through the long history of this estimable Forum? Was it common and were parents notified or would the marks and discomforts disguised when not notified? May I make a suggestion? Instead of referring those who frequently post long links to computer corner where they have to scroll and search that instruction be given just following a long post? It would have made it easier for me.

Double Jeapardy

 
 
Renee (TWP Editor)

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

October 27 2009, 9:06 PM 

Hello American Way!

I hate to come off as "too teachy" but you made a "boo boo" on your last post. Go back and re-read Renee Chronicles pt. I -I'll be looking for your written report tomorrow morning! (Giggle)

As to a correction: I was born in 1979, not 1989! Had I been born in 1989, I would still be in college! (Those were some fun times too!)

On Nashia, she had already been given a choice between out of school suspension with placement in an alternative school program. That would have meant NO BASKETBALL her senor year and probable loss of chance for college scholarship. She chose the paddle and then I was called over. Amy knew me as a former teacher of hers and decided to take a chance that my handling of the situation might be more favorable for herself. And Amy guessed right. (I can tell the difference between a "catfight" and an assault)

 
 
prof.n

Shelly G.

October 27 2009, 9:40 PM 




Hi American way


Shelly G is perhaps one the single best know cases of alleged cp abuse in the US - if for no other reason than it provoked a senate hearing.It is perhaps for a UK audience just worth noting that the precipitating incident in respect of this was NOT the paddling per se, regardless of how abusive or otherwise this was, but the fact that school demonstrably failed in its duty of care to provide work of an adequate grade and standard, in appropriate quantity for Sally.

Thus had she remained in ISS she would have consistently fallen further and further behind with her work. Furthermore the school in this caeedid appear to act in a discriminatory manner from the complaint :

8. An alternative discipline to corporal punishment of raking leaves would have been offered to Shelly had she been a boy. Therefore, we charge that there was sex discrimination as well.

Instead she was paddled by an assistant principal ( who was also an assistant football coach , 6' 2" and 200 lbs). He does not appear to have been aiming to abuse,(indeed he appears to have let her off three swats according to the tariff) but who probably failed to recognize his own strength. Sally took six licks and had bruising for over two weeks ; i took ten to TWP standards some years earlier : the worst was over within the hour, ,it could be felt for 24 hours and I got some superficial bruising for a couple of days. From the mother (admitted in evidence);

The day after her corporal punishment, I took Shelly to Dr. John Smith, Medical Examiner of nearby Sampson County. Not only was Shelly badly bruised, the beating had caused her menstrual flow to turn into hemorrhaging.

So even allowing for different physiology, she seems to have been treated quite badly, demonstrating the potential for accidental abuse in non regulated environments. Now i beleieve unfortunately for the familty, who were without doubt sincere in their complaints, the medical examiner aroused anger by alleging child abuse againts the Vice Principal. Later this boomeranged againt the family in court, because of the North Carolina /Jesse Helms/Adams /Bailey connection.

An academic paper notes the following :

This is the background from which Judge Bailey emerged. His old friend, Hoover Adams, has been judged by other journalists as promoting a right wing and biased newspaper. Roy Parker, editor of the Fayetteville Times, said that Adams "made a career of being biased in favor of things he wants." Parker claims that Adams has "this wonderful attitude that 'everybody else is biased and I'm not.'"

Following the trial, one of Shelly's married sisters, in an unrelated event, complained about religious classes that were taught in the Dunn public schools. While the school's own attorney ruled that the classes were unconstitutional, Hoover Adam's paper led a campaign against cancelling the religion classes. Allegations against the Gaspersohns surely encouraged the threats they received against their personal safety. The Gaspersohns finally gave up their business and left Dunn.



Just to fill in background.

 
 
prof.n

spellcheck

October 27 2009, 9:45 PM 



Spellchecker turned Shelly into Sally , corrected manually, sorry still two remaining uncorrected errors!

 
 
American Way

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

October 27 2009, 11:28 PM 

Hi Renee: I was curious when you wrote: Because the only lady teacher who paddles was on personal leave for this month, I was placed on stand by just in case. I was told it could happen but not likely.

I was wondering if you were chosen to be the DH because someone might choose one of their own gender or was it required. What do you think of that Lonestar Student and an education major (who knows TWP II) who had no problem with CP at her school for it made her feel safer but some of her friends only got paddled once and it was never by a man? It's just not right for a man to paddle a girl.

She never came anywhere near being hit. I think that's why our daughter liked her because they were smarter at being bad than being good. My wife is cut from the same fabric she knew how to handle that better than me. Our daughter only got in trouble once in school (twice counting double jeopardy) for being lippy. Boy was I surprised. Wasn't her fault she had just starting menstruating.happy.gif

A rat in Tom's house might eat Tom's ice cream. See I'm good in arithmetic. happy.gif



 
 
Renee (TWP Editor)

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

October 29 2009, 2:45 AM 

Hi American Way:

Don't know anything about a "lonestar" but as to the "Nashia paddling"; I was called in because female students are NOT to be paddled by male educators as per school policy.

Hey, if you have a link on "lonestar", send it to TWP or post it here -After you have done your assigned reading of Renee's Chronicles. (HA HA HA)

 
 
Renee (TWP Editor)

"Bathing Suit Areas"

October 31 2009, 3:58 AM 

Hello to all members of this esteemed forum:

Paula Flowe, in an internet radio show, said TWP's very own sweet Michelle "sexually molested" Miguel when she paddled him.

I am calling on this forum to please recall any "honorary membership" that you may have offered Paula. Poor Michelle was really hurt by Paula's comments and put a memo on our latest post. Also, the link to the radio show "Public School Spanking 101" is on the post.

Take care,
Renee

 
 

TWP - Michelle

October 31 2009, 2:01 PM 


Thank you for flagging up the issue Renee.I've never listened to 101 radio for mare than a few seconds, but I put it over the sound system this morning.

Now I come from a professional area where intense academic debate can get heated, even where , unfortunately on occasions ,the odd personal innuendo flies.....but nothing like this . The show was little short of vituperative hogwash.

I say that not because I disagree with Paula and her young presenter. We all believe in in first amendment rights; but because the way to win an argument is not engage in personal attack nor to use guilt by association. It is to address the issues head on.

Whether or not someone agrees with Michelle's approach to Miguel , one thing shines out , she believed herself genuinely that what she did was for the best, and although the paddling was far from pleasant I'm sure , it was done in a calm and supportive environment, and all necessary steps were taken to ensure that it was both safe and effective. Anyone doubting that from the written description , as I've said before, should look to their basic reading skills!

But the most unacceptable element was the repeated innuendos about Michelle's motives. The whole area of teacher student interaction is complex and delicate. I'm not going to give credibility to the comments by repeating them here, except for one - which is laughable in the extreme. yet it was repeated and stressed on the broadcast.

Michelle checked Miguel's rear pockets to see they were empty and safe. As I write this I'm wearing a pair of Wranglers; the house keys are in one back pocket.So its clear you need to check. An older child who is co-operative may check at your request, ....but..... It would be foolhardy to rely on that in elementary. .....if Michelle hadn't, and Miguel had placed a key ring or similar there....well Paula would have had a field day.

Debate the issues and the news by all means , but radio and the media should not be about character assassination, and I'm sure we can all share , regardless of our views on the general issue, just how distressed and angry Michelle must feel.


 
 
American Way

estimable Forum not estimable forum

October 31 2009, 6:46 PM 

Hi Renee: Some readers of this estimable Forum are very case sensitive. So as a heads up I won't you to know I was taken to task for the same error with a rather stern warning for not being case sensitive. While on that topic Renee the best cheesecake I've ever had was at the Cheesecake Factory check the not so case sensitive link below. happy.gif

Paula Flowe name appears there as a joke. Soon I hope yours will be there along with prof n but as an honor. Don't let it worry you it's like a sinecure. happy.gif

Texas I know has the best cheesecake and have the best cheerleaders or so I've been told. wink.gif

lonestar-state-cheesecake-recipe



 
 
Renee (TWP Editor)

THANKS Y'ALL

October 31 2009, 8:33 PM 

Hello again y'all:

Thank you, Prof. Nev for your words of support -Michelle and the rest of us at TWP appreciate the kind words.

TWP's objective as to Paula Flowe is to disqualify her as a spokesperson for the anti c.p. movement. We DO believe in freedom of speech but until Paula issues an apology to Michelle -Paula is an illegitimate voice as far as we are concerned.

As to "case sensitive", I PROMISE to be more careful in the future!

Have to go now -My beloved Georgia Bulldogs (Our mascot is an "Old English Bulldog"!) are about to kick off against the Florida Reptiles (Gators)!

All the best,
Renee

 
 

TWP

November 8 2009, 10:26 PM 

I've just spent some time listening to the link at the bottom of this post, Justin and Paula's radio program about TWP (teachers who paddle). Now I listened again because last week we were directed by Renee to a grossly intemperate attack on Michelle, one of the Ladies in TWP.. I hoped my new experience of the radio show would demonstrate this level of vitriol to be an aberration. Sorry , no such luck.

I listened to an interview. Well that is what it was called , between the radio show ( Jestin and Paula on air ) and some written answers provided by TWP to questions set by the show. Now normally in an interview , in my experience you get a chance to answer the questions. Even where written questions are used in this country the questions and answers should be read out in full.

I know interviews can be rough. Would you fancy answering Jeremy Paxman in England , or appearing as a Democrat on Fox in the States? But even with fancy editing and leading questions, it is ultimately down to you. You stand or fall on your own performance.

Not in Paula and Jestin land.If you wanted to know what TWP answered you would have needed to listen very very carefully. For rather than read the answers , you will find that Paula and Jestin between them interrupted , mocked, questioned , and really didn't try to give a fair hearing to the written answers.Remember no one from TWP was there, the answers stood on their own. There was a virtual non stop critical commentary..don't take my word for it , listen!!

Before you get to the answers , however you have to listen to Jestin's view that Teachers who paddle hide what they are about ( with a name like that who could?). Anyway Jestin believes that TWP uses an acronym to disguise its true purpose. He suggest just like KFC, where we don't know from the name that it is chicken and fried, so with TWP we don't know it is Teachers who paddle. I've never found the ladies hide that..but anyway he also think that they use cp not corporal punishment for the same reason , again its such a little known acronym...isn't it ?

Sorry Jestin you just bombed out. An 'F' I'm afraid I suggest you repeat the test when you've done a little more homework.......


Now I'm not suggesting that you all run out and form a cheerleading squad for the ladies. But I am suggesting that whether you agree with them or not they should be given a fair hearing. After listening to the interview the only fact I came away with was that Paula teaches college. I hope, Paula you give your students a bit more room for their views than you do TWP.

Who are middle of the road people going to listen to a group of teachers who want high academic standards, well disciplined classrooms, and listen to the community and parents. Or a group of zealots who want to use the power of the Federal State to crush diversity and parental choice?

And if you are worried because you disapprove of the paddle, don't be. If you sign an opt out, the TWP position defends your absolute right to do that, if that is your wish. the zealots don't believe in parental choice, or community rights.

What are you afraid of Paula? Surely not a little blog run by teachers. If your arguments are good, then come out and fight with them . If you stuck to the facts and let the other side have their say, you would have a bigger audience......

Jestin you've got to understand that in a free society we are not afraid of any views. I have taught in University for years. I always encourage students to develop their views and to disagree with me when they want to do so. . We learn through open debate. Many students who disagree with me get excellent grades. You see I don't believe I have all the answers.....and I'm afraid neither do you. Open debate and real freedom of speech serves everybody, provided we respect each other.Please remember that

Remember also if you had ever been in Renee's High School and been 'up' before her, you would have wanted to make your case. ...and she would let you. Do give TWP that same respect you would rightly demand of them.

There is room for you and for TWP. But make it a fair fight , and hold off from the personal attacks....please.


Now why don't y'all listen to

http://www.blogtalkradio.com/search/teachers-who-paddle/allresults/mostrelevent/_/_/_/_/0

 
 

Juistin and Paula

November 9 2009, 12:53 AM 



Sorry forgot something on my post

Jestin and Paula, do the decent thing : apologize to Michelle over the personal abuse.You know its only right.

 
 
hcj

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

November 11 2009, 10:57 PM 

I was amused by a short item on page 30 of today's Daily Mail, which had the headline: Paddling 'too risky for pupils'. It turns out that the paddling that is too risky is the sort that involves getting you feet wet whilst walking along the water's edge at the seaside. What is the world coming to!

 
 

Another_Lurker

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

November 12 2009, 12:42 AM 

I am surprised at you hcj! Are you not aware of the dangers of allowing children to paddle in the sea? The little dears may walk into an area of quicksand and be sucked down to their deaths. A tsunami may sweep in and carry them off to oblivion. A killer whale may launch itself half way up the beach and grab them. Surely you saw what happened to that poor seal in the wildlife program? The law is quite clear on the matter:

A risk assessment must first be carried out by someone qualified to at least SBIE (Sea Beach Interface Expeditions) Stage 3 and holding a CMIDE (Child Minding In Dangerous Environments) Class 1 certificate. If the risk assessment is approved by a full committee meeting of the organising body the expedition may take place. The ratio of children to adults in the party must not exceed 2:1. All adults involved must hold a CMIDE Class 2 or higher certificate, at least half of them must hold SBIE Stage 1 or above and one such holder must be designated as expedition leader and be responsible for preparing an expedition plan. A copy of the expedition plan must be lodged with the Coastguard and Rescue Services at least 10 working days before the date of the expedition

During the expedition each adult must carry a lifebelt and throwline, and if the party exceeds 6 children an inflatable dingy capable of holding at least two thirds of the children must be carried. All members of the party must wear life jackets at all times when within 500 metres of the edge of the sea. The expedition leader is responsible for notifying Coastguard and Rescue Services of the location and duration of the expedition on arrival within 500 metres of the sea and for notifying its safe conclusion. Tsanumi reports, killer whale sightings and the location of any quicksands should be obtained as part of the first notification.

 
 
Renee (TWP Editor)

Heads Up

November 19 2009, 9:49 PM 

Hello Y'all:

Just a "Heads Up" from TWP:

Our next post to be published this weekend will have a commentary on the Ohio state c.p. ban law, a Jestin/TWP segment and a Miranda Update.

Check it out.

All the Best,
Renee

 
 

TWP - Nashia/Amy ; a reply to Aw's question Part I

November 20 2009, 12:21 AM 

AW wrote :-

there is not much to disagree with the commentary on TWP Miranda paddling. Without being a Monday morning quarterback (Renee and prof n would know what that means) I cannot approve 100% with the Nashia/Amy situation. Perhaps prof n you would like to go first on that one and post your reaction under TWP thread where they would most likely catch unless you would like to make your very insightful and positive comments on their site on Miranda's. It certainly offset too often unreasonable criticism. They are courageous but not courageous to submit. They can stand up on their account and don't need anyone to defend them but they are open to critique.

Put it down to my professional training and perhaps the respect instilled in my High School and University education, but if I write and use someone Else's material I or comment upon it in detail , I always ways give them the 'heads up' .So my posting on Miranda, AW, despite its odd location ( sorry Steve, no reflection on your excellent header pic from the 70''s!) , has been copied to Renee, in case she wants to comment or correct anything.Anyone who hasn't seen it the link is here at 1.22pm on the 19th November:

http://www.network54.com/Forum/198833/thread/1250850703/last-1258661625/Fashions+change-totally+off+topic

So to Nashia, and Amy. I basically didn't have a huge problem with this one. the case seems to me fairly clear, and Renee's actions reasonable and fair.

I will post the TWP original and add/subtract from it for ease and to some members having to refer between forums :

This week was another ho-hum week of detention rosters and I.S.S. referrals but Wednesday was a big exception.

Yep -Another Renee Paddling.

But this was different in that I was called over to the high school next door.

The reason: A girl fight!

Because the only lady teacher who paddles was on personal leave for this month, I was placed on stand by just in case. I was told it could happen but not likely.

Wrong!


I realize why these situations occur, and I have every sympathy with staff members who have to do there best in them, It is, however, not an ideal situation when a member of staff who is not directly responsible for the student is in charge of punishment. Not simply for the staff member, who often has to rely on 'getting up to speed' extremely quickly, but equally the perpetrators may feel less willing to 'come clean' or even to discuss the issue with someone they know little of. I don't know the management arrangements between the two schools ( or is it two departments in one complex)?

So, after a five minute walk -I come into the front office and lo -A petite former student of mine with a black eye, busted lip, and a bruised cheek. The other was a much larger black girl (A highly recruited basketball player) sporting a slightly swollen lower lip.

Mrs. (Renee) ., these two were in a cat fight dispute over a boy earlier this morningSchool policy calls for BOTH to be paddled, so said Mr. Roberts, the high school principal.

Catfight? I questioned. Looks more like a mugging outcome youd expect to see on the Live At 6 local newscast!

I talked Mr. Roberts into allowing me to take complete charge of the matter -Which he agreed. Then, I took both ladies from the front office to the vice principals office in back of the building. After calling the librarian by intercom for the purpose of a (female) witness, I then turned towards Nashia who must be the biggest (and meanest Ive heard) high school girl basketball player around.


This is the area of the story where I to some extent lose the plot. Two girls, the smaller one quite badly beaten from the description, and the larger one damaged , but nowhere near as seriously.

Now Renee appears aware of the basketball players reputation but from where? (the Principal? Gossip? Interview? Student file ? computer record?) it just isn't clear. I'm trying to sequence what went on. It's obviously important because of the fact that Renee knows one of the perpetrators from times past, and seems to have a clear picture of the other, as I saw , gleaned from where?

I hope it wasn't just the injuries that made the case. Many years ago when I was advised ( rather like AW's Nephew), in my case by Jackie , before she was teaching in my school , to deal with a bully myself- quick and quiet! . If you had assessed the injuries alone, he came off worst. But in those days if the bully didn't complain,( he was 'encouraged' by a prefect to say he walked into a wall) and natural justice had been served, however wrongly, the school turned the old Nelson eye.

'Every dog deserves one free bite'

Although to be fair Jackie did warn me that 'if unlucky you might be caned- if so take it bravely and don't whine- what are you - a Man or a Mouse?( or , far worse , a wimp!)'! He who risks nothing deserves to gain nothing... don't strap your guns on to drop 'em in the sxxt....etc. ....but she was raised in rural Texas, and I was a boy...!

However the next section definitely indicates that Nashia clearly admits responsibility

Nashia, if it were up to me -Id just call the sheriff and have you arrested for assaultAnd you could wave bye bye to ANY future college basketball scholarship!

Nashia looked at me wide eyed and pleaded,Look, Mrs. ., I just lost it when I saw Amy getting too chatty with my boyfriendPleaseJust paddle me!If I dont get that scholarship


She clearly knew what she deserved and was prepared to accept it. She didn't try to argue it out , or even blame Amy for the fight. she seems to be quite straight forward , and even a little contrite.

The other missing bit here appeared to be a confirmation from the Principal that both students were eligible to be paddled.....but that's probably a stylistic omission, after all, if the penalty were not available , presumably Renee would not have been called.

What I am curious about however , is the Principal's stance that both should be paddled , reiterated by the librarian witness later. I applaud Renee her for using discretion,and not treating the matrix as binding 'law'. That , as you know , is my worry. Had Nashia not admitted responsibility for having 'lost it' the situation could have been much more dangerous and difficult to resolve.

Amy interrupted,Steves locker is next to mine!I was not flirting

Amy , take a lesson in poker, , when the cards give you a winning hand , don't push it OK? So go with the flow.......don't antagonize the banker!

Amy dear, calm down and have a seatNashia, come with me into the conference room with Ms. B (Librarian).


 
 

Reply to AW Part II

November 20 2009, 12:22 AM 

Holding a rather heavy 20 x 4 x 1 double handled paddle, I informed Nashia that she would get 5 swats and to bend over with hands against the wall.

I then proceeded to deliver 5 hard swats to the thin looking dress slack covered rear end of Nashia. And I did not hold back as I usually do and held the paddle with both hands -Nashia REALLY deserved this one!

SMACK SMACK SMACK SMACK SMACK

Even behind closed doors, anyone in the hallways outside the office would have heard it! And Nashia, the roughest girl in the school was reduced to tears and clutching her rear as she was sent back to her class.


Again Nashia's reputation precedes her. My only real comment is the one Renee made herself. I actually think a half in paddle is sufficient even in senior high, in my limited experience the 1/2 inch is very memorable.....even when given in line with TWP good practice. I assume with the paddle being 1 inch thick the double hand issue comes in because of the sheer mass. I understand from those who know much more about these things than I . They inform me that a half inch oak is , for example, more dense, and much more easily manipulated, and therefore more effective than a 1 inch pine. Of equal importance is the technique and the final 'snap' well so I'm told.........

Only one other comment. Was Nashia sent to class in tears, or allowed to recover? Again its just not clear from the text. My own view is whilst I understand the desire in some cases to demonstrate the effect of discipline , especially on a bully , it can be counterproductive in the long run.

Anyway poor old Amy seemed visibly impressed.............


Amy, waiting outside, had a look of sheer terror and started to plead.

No, AmyIm NOT going to paddle youYou need to get medical attentionSo call your mom or dadIll sign your dismissal form, I responded.



I wonder if Renee realized at the time the effect this would have on Amy, when she didn't , at that time know Renee's intentions to her ?......hey girl....you are lucky......!!! I don't think she'll go anywhere near a fight next time. That thought may be unworthy! Renee may have thought no such thing.........but it certainly left an impression.....and will have got round the school , which doubtless will have an effect on the little ladies.....

Ms. B started to say something but I cut her off saying, No, I dont care what Mr. Roberts says about it taking TWO for there to be a fight because poor Amy was NOT in a fight but rather a real life beating!

A relieved and grateful Amy hugged me and then proceeded to call her dad who arrived a short time later to pick her up.

I do not believe Nashia will be getting in any more trouble like this week and if my paddling reputation causes the high school girls to act more like ladies and not thugs -That will be for the better!


That speaks for itself. I still don't understand the the fact that in a case which is clear cut , any sensible educator would want to paddle both parties. As I say it would be nice to see where Nashia's reputation came from.....but what else was one to do. the option it seems to me would have been to call in the police....worse for everyone.

And for those who would try to make this a RACIAL issue -FORGETABOUTIT!

If Amy had been black and Nashia white -The paddling would have been exactly the same!



In brief I would say the paddling was not unfair, or biased. Hard yes, but this is High School, and five licks.. painful but ..half or less what it could have been 30 years ago. I would have preferred a slightly different paddle....but its not Renee's school, and provided the paddling was done safely there would be no untoward after effects. Certainly there seems no dispute on the facts and Nashia's comment carry a lot of weight. It was carried out quickly and efficiently. I don't think anyone's rights were abused, and due process seems served.

 
 
American Way

Forgetaboutit . Renee I have tried

November 20 2009, 12:05 PM 

Re: Nashia/Amy/Renee:

Frederick Douglass A man's character always takes its hue, more or less, from the form and color of things about him.

I have been told I am impossible to understand and even more impossible to follow at which I reply but are you listening. If you don't think that I am worth listening to it won't be worth your trouble.

Renee young lady I am old to be your Dad and if you were I would be as proud as you as my own who graduated from college last year and found a job in this economy now we hope she find a guy or at least a place before my wife brings back corporal punishment. Nashia (my sisters oldest) let me tell you what they (white folk) did to your great Grandmother. When my Mom was pregnant out of wedlock my Uncle said as he went off to WW II said of my brother to my Grandmother who `is going to raise that ****** child (my brother) if he gets killed. Hue.

I am an African American in the sense that my great grandfather married a white woman and my grandfather came over from Europe where he first encountered racial discrimination. In class my nickname was coon and on an occasion was called ******. Of my three siblings I came out the darkest you got it. Hue.

I was told never to start a fight but always finish one. The class runt called me coon in fifth grade and even at that I didn¡¦t get physical until I said take it back and then beat him so badly that I had to be pulled away for not being merciful. He paid for every sin committed against me back to my great grandfather. Hue.

On the night of my senior prom my girlfriend broke up with me because the daughter of (****** child comment) went to the girls room to be told that I was colored. Hue.

Lets get back to Nashia she goes home and shows her bruises. Hue.

I will return to the issue of due pricess at a later time.





 
 

Frederick Douglass

November 20 2009, 2:55 PM 

Some of our esteemed readership may not be aware of who Frederick Douglass was or his relevance to the thread.

Briefly, born in 1817 in Maryland as a slave Douglas was a leading exponent of emancipation and universal suffrage He had a hard life early, being severely beaten in his mid teenage years,leaving permanent psychological damage, but eventually he fought back. Later he escaped from the South to freedom initially to Philadelphia (Quaker city!).

He had risked severe punishment by teaching slaves to read and write, and on becoming a 'freed man' undertook a political career, ultimately becoming the first black man to be nominated ( against his will) onto a radical vice presidential ticket.

A principled man ,

' "I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong."

He wrote a best seller 'Narrative' in 1845, and traveled widely as a speaker in Britain and Ireland during a period when his old 'master ' a man called Auld was reputed to be trying to rev claim him as property. Later he would repay his debt to Ireland by speaking and writing in support of Parnell.

He was associated with the Harper's Ferry raid (1859), having met Brown , and despite having argued against the radical abolitionists in journals and papers of the time, fled to Canada on the defeat of the insurgency by Robert E Lee and the arrest of John Brown .The relationship between the two remains a mystery.

Considering what came after, you might want to reflect on the two edged sword of John Brown's final prophesy before execution

I John Brown am now quite certain that the crimes of this guilty, land: will never be purged away; but with Blood. I had as I now think: vainly flattered myself that without very much bloodshed; it might be done.


When emancipation was declared Douglas wrote :

"We were waiting and listening as for a bolt from the sky...we were watching...by the dim light of the stars for the dawn of a new day...we were longing for the answer to the agonizing prayers of centuries."


He was a recruiter for the Union,and after the war fought ceaselessly against the resurgent democrat militia ( red shirts ; white league) who fought a campaign against black republican candidates for office and carpetbaggers, often resorting to intimidation and murder.

He became one of the first major African American politicians, ultimately living in Washington in considerable comfort, in a house with 21 rooms and 15 acres - cedar hill .In 1888 he became the fist African American to receive a roll call vote for President , at the 1888 republican convention.

He died in 1895 whilst still politically active.

Sorry if it is too much like history ......Next week we'll look at a bunch of rich mercantilist capitalists who didn't want to pay their taxes, so made a big cup of tea instead..... !!!!!!!

 
 
American Way

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

November 20 2009, 4:23 PM 

Renee et al by now you know that I hold you in highest regard. More Monday questions. If you were in a room of people waiting to be selected and Nashia was being tried in a totally different case but involved an assualt and battery would you recuse yourself? If you were waiting to be selected and Amy was the victim of a similar offense by someone other than Nashia would you recuse yourself? If you were Black would you feel more comfortable if one of the twelve was one. More relevantly if it did go to the sheriff's office how important would your testimony be based on what was said and heard (remember what was learned from the wrong boy being paddled)?

Would I be concerned about Nashia color yes but not your motives as you said forgetaboutit? What did I like best about the Miranda paddling? Parental involvement and your ongoing interest. Renee as Principal of that high school I would either have a designated hitter of her gender trained and willing and I would not publish that right in case a circumstance like this would arise. I have made the analogy before but doctors like principals (unfair sexism that the goodness is now being balanced often men) can apply the needle or paddle for different medicinal purposes. Taking your clothes off is different than sticking your butt up embarassingly in the brace position or as prof n has astutely noted less than bending over touching one knees or toes or as I suggested a needle more likely in the position that Nancy and the young lady got it in the link below. That's what assume the position meant without explanation. If there was a desk chair she would be over that. Putting in the handbook that you have a right to ask for someone to witness (not be the paddler) be of the same gender assures a comfort level that achieves the positive outcome of more paddling than suspensions.

A paddling of high school girl by a male principal has nothing in common with the Kiev high school and college girls being spanked in provocative clothes. If they were at the beach playing volleyball they would provoke the same reaction in me in a bikini and those who think teachers get their jollies this way are sick. Teachers are not extended the same benefit of the doubt where a witness of the same gender is often honored. Steve Halter (albeit gave me the creeps for different reasons including wanting it filmed) would not have paddled Nancy Guillen any harder than the matrix like offense or as the UK say tariff. Doing it for a national telivison audience was no a good idea or for her fellow students to hear whether she was a stoic or prof n if she yelled out a few four letter words. That would end the video in a hurry. happy.gif

prof n has a psychological (no wait) and medical (no law suit causing damages) in mind and my interests on the whole is forensic. Due process means to me did Amy get her due and Nashia get her due? The condition of Amy (someone who you had previous knowledge as a good kid) was shocking and outrage would be natural. Your state of mind when giving those swats has to do with matrices. Yes prof n those dreaded matrices. Five obviously is the max and you adjusted your severity in applying those swats according to what she was wearing and the instument of correction that you were given you had no say about. The matrix says five and should not be delivered in variant intensity according to your outrage however I know you are professional enough not to wish the handbook didn't allow for six.

My POV as a potential grandfather follows. Gee I hope she didn't let the white girl go scot free. There must have been some verbal jousting going along that escalated way out of control and certainly was not the intention of my Nashia to hospitalize Amy? I have watched Nashia grow and her mother was no angel but she is doing a good job raising her.

Was the place you paddled Nashia the most out of sight and hearing? I have never been comfortable with queue of fellow students hearing you getting paddled or being hit with a pointer over the intercom for classmates to hear in my time. TMI but I developed a reputation as a hard ass. happy.gif What good does it do to know you're a hard hitter if you're not going to be called upon to be a pinch hitter or designated hitter (IMHO bad idea) as a regular back up? Perhaps you will never see this kid again and she may have had a pristine record and had she no extra curricular activity (in her mind a college scholarship) would she have exercise who right to be exempted and being suspended instead?

Long and short did you take as much time without undue delay to determine what kind of trouble Amy and Nashia have gotten into? Was it a good idea to have Amy on tenter hooks awaiting nervously and not told from the get go that she needed medical attention and she wouldn't be paddled? If all that had been sorted out when you were handed the paddle fine but more to the point why isn't that being done by them and not you. The case of my nephew and the bully came partners (adversial at times) several years in the debate team with forensic concerns not unlike his uncle happy.gif

A paddling of high school girls by a male principal has nothing in common with the Kiev college girls (all presumably above the age of consent) being spanked in provocative clothes. Guys had "panty raids" when I went to college. Maybe Renee would like to weigh on this slightly off topic but maybe like Jenny would venture an opinion? If they were at the beach playing volleyball they would provoke the same reaction in me as in a bikini and those who think teachers get their jollies this way are sick. Teachers are not extended the same benefit of the doubt where a witness of the same gender is often honored. Steve Halter would not have paddled Nancy Guillen any harder than the matrix like offense or as the UK say tariff. Doing it for a national telivison audience was no a good idea or for her fellow students to hear whether she was a stoic or prof n if she yelled out a few four letter words. happy.gif

You mentioned you wish more knew that a paddling was not torure and I agree. Since it is impossible to tell what is like without going porno I think if you were to ask this young lady from spike TV how she would feel after two more I think but can't be sure that is the way Nashia would feel (i.e. if she got what she was due and not more). I don't know where TWP comes from but I like very much what Missouri does in letting the parents know in the handbook to expect moderate bruising. A paddling is not a picnic but it is more often than not by a parent who has their student's interests at heart. As with doctors after care is so important and I hope Nashia will find one at the high school.

Monday morning quarterbacking? For sure. Life is a learning experience and it's always a leaning curve even for me on the wrong side of fifty or getting up on the wrong side of the bed more and more. As I said I'm not your Dad but would be proud to call you my daughter. I always look forward to your bolgsite and am happy I was the first to bring it to this estimable Forum attention. Your blogsite is a lot easier to understand and follow than my ramblings happy.gif but I hope you found food for thought.


http://www.spike.com/episode/29710/st/2967983



 
 

Equality , frasternity and liberty.

November 22 2009, 12:05 AM 


Hi American Way,

This is a post I wanted to avoid if I could. Why / Not because it is embarrassing , but because it should , in my view be passed over unspoken. ,But I suppose you can't in the case of the South in particular. Too much history, too many lynchings, too many towns with two sides of the tracks, too many towns where the sun don't shine.....the symbolism and the pregnancy of history.

'This land is condemned...all the way from new Orleans to Jerusalem'.( The ballad of Blind Willy McTell)

I put off replying yesterday, and for my trouble received an email from Texas to the effect of , if you start a job , you finish it. OK I'm not sixteen any more and I don't have to stand in front of her to explain myself....but there is a bit of me that knows on this she's right. Because I can , perhaps , deal with this in a very different way than could most, what can we say come at this from a totally obtuse angle. And yet unless someone who knows me well kicked me ,I just guess I wouldn't do it .

Your statement ;

I am an African American in the sense that my great grandfather married a white woman and my grandfather came over from Europe where he first encountered racial discrimination

Mine :

My great great grand father on one side of the family , was a Lakota Indian. His daughter , born out of wedlock , and conceived in Deadwood South Dakota, ( perhaps this explains my mothers antipathy to me leaning poker in my teens.....)!!was blissfully ignorant of this for most of her life, as the British Victorians hated scandal.

My great great grand mother , already married , came with her husband to the US. on two extended. trips. her husband the owner of a patented soap product, set up home in Salt Lake City ,Utah with the intention of supplying the settler wagon trains traveling West. Later he traveled throughout the States establishing franchises and distributors for his product, until he reached Deadwood on an extended visit in the gold rush.He went further into hill towns .leaving his wife alone. On finding she was 'with child', he returned post haste to Utah, and left for England where he arrived 24 hours before the birth.The new baby was quickly left to be brought up by grandparents, whilst he continued his business, relocating to the Deep South (Louisiana) , until an untimely death.......

However, in a museum in Yorkshire lie the remains of this story, a set of headdresses, water bottles and other items that would have been the birthright of any boy.....but the child was a girl!When she was very young as a baby she carried obvious traces of her parentage, and her siblings at home would try to leave her alone in the park........because the stork had made a mistake!

Why tell this? We are all products of the process of genetic reproduction and what unites us is our humanity. I trust that in today's world this is now accepted. I trust it is more than accepted by teachers in particular.

I am lucky , if you call it that , in that put me in a line up and my parentage is indistinguishable from anyone else ( not surprising after these generations), and when in the States it is an after dinner conversation piece, ( and yes my family do NOT run a casino!)

Hence my connection with the States, and why I feel fairly emotionally secure there.

However , travel to South Dakota ,the reservations, the Indian schools, and the so called state services.........but is this the America of the past or the future?


Perhaps there is one thing that unites Georgians and the Sioux, is a dislike for General W Sherman

[w]e must act with vindictive earnestness against the Sioux, even to their extermination, men, women and children

Sherman began a march with 62,000 men to the port of Savannah, Georgia, living off the land and causing, by his own estimate, more than $100 million in property damage. Sherman called this harsh tactic of material war "hard war", often seen as a species of total war. At the end of this campaign, known as Sherman's March to the Sea, his troops captured Savannah on December 21, 1864. Sherman then dispatched a famous message to Lincoln, offering him the city as a Christmas present.


Its not always the minorities......


I'm not making comparisons, just saying that history is history and carries forward to generations, it should inform but not judge, explain , but not hate.

I'm not sure of your message to Renee. Surely you don't accuse her of discrimination- Or is it stereotypical? Black basketball Stars of either sex are tough

When at university many years ago I enrolled in a course on dependency theory in a 'development studies institute'. Most students were Hispanic, from South America and minority from from Africa, and three white. The main language was Spanish American . On my first day I was 'invited' to play basketball with the Latin Americans. Not long after Allende and the overthrow of popular governments by the US. Bt rotain and their backers..... black ops, the execution of priests....dark days from double dealing politicians...... It was a get the man competition, not get the ball. I was badly bruised, having been kicked , punched and body slammed.......what did I do ? Went out next break and did the same again.Eventually you gain respect, and I made good friends.......they had every right to dislike me and my government, I had every right to meet them as equals.



So be more precise. Is your comment general or specific, or just you are 'worried the white girl got off Scott Free? Was the matrix right or Renee right - how would you judge. I could write pages of erudite sociology on the point. there's a literature the weight of Mount Olympus....... but is that where you are coming from? This is asking , not criticizing AW?


By the way I still suck at basketball.


 
 
American Way

Color Me Human

November 22 2009, 2:28 AM 

prof n no conflict is just black and white (devoid of race) and rarely is a random act of violence. I could care less if Nashia was Black, Asian, Native American or White but thanks to the pencil pushers you have to report that here. In fact why did Renee have to say so? I look for the gray. Gender and size were relevant in the telling of the story. Because of the tint of my skin people ask me all the time what am I and I simply reply in an inquisitive but not confrontational manner why do you have a need to know this and what does that have to do with me? I have heard it all my life and I live in the northeast so let's not vilify southerners. Race is my third rail.

I don't play the blame game but simply state what I wasn't comfortable with and I'm sure Renee knows that but I wouldn't be me. I'm considered fair by my peers and superiors and am often called upon to be an arbitrator (often called upon as an arbitrator if I didn't share my discomfort it make me uncomfortable.

The thought of Nashia getting the word out on how the new middle school administrator is a hard paddler means that Renee thinks she will be asked to do it again unless she wants the word to get out to their younger siblings in the middle school. She shouldn't be put in a position where she basically becomes an executioner.

The attention that Amy received was great but should she have been made to listen to what Nashia was being dished out and why should she be thinking she was next or worse still was that the game plan so Nashia's clutching of the buttocks and the sounds emanating from the room were meant to make Amy think Renee was evening the score. Renee and Amy hugging may seem to Nashia if she saw it that it was like Renee was finishing the fight.

The principal (unless forbidden in the handbook and not just internal policy or custom) should be doing the paddling regardless of the gender when lacking a woman to do it and a female witness should be called upon if the student so requests. Too may variants for someone who walks on the scene.

Can Amy learn something from all of this either than don't mess with Nashia? Learning about conflict resolution (Amy) and anger management (Nashia) would be a good place to start.

If five swats is the maximum then every person who gets five from the same person should expect the same. Swats can be counted down by appeal if need be. Amy could have filled out a form and the principal could have been the judge instead of Renee for playing both judge and the executioner can give anyone the impression that she is just settling a score.

In fairness to Renee I'm copy pasting this response to the TWP blogsite. I'm sure they have said things that may make me look stupid for not having picked up on by their account and the need for clarification may be on the account of my denseness but I learned from my best teacher (non-nun sixth grade teacher) it's better to ask questions no matter how dumb it may make you look? I know you intend to answer prof n quetions this Wednesday and I wish all TWP a Happy Thanksgiving.

 
 
prof.n

RE : TWP

November 22 2009, 4:51 PM 

Hi American Way,

Thank you for posting such a clear and detailed exposition of where you stand.

no conflict is just black and white (devoid of race) and rarely is a random act of violence. I could care less if Nashia was Black, Asian, Native American or White but thanks to the pencil pushers you have to report that here. In fact why did Renee have to say so? I look for the gray. Gender and size were relevant in the telling of the story.

I thought of the pencil pushers too...you see your damned if you do and damned if you don't.....In one sense there was no need for Renee to mention color...in another sense , if you are honest and straightforward there is ....expect it opens you to an 'own goal'


The attention that Amy received was great but should she have been made to listen to what Nashia was being dished out and why should she be thinking she was next or worse still was that the game plan so Nashia's clutching of the buttocks and the sounds emanating from the room were meant to make Amy think Renee was evening the score. Renee and Amy hugging may seem to Nashia if she saw it that it was like Renee was finishing the fight.


You saw yet another interpretation of this than I did .......settling the score and finishing the fight. This is an important point. As I said in a different context , we have to be precise in sequencing, or Paula will do it for us and draw what I'm 100% sure are completely erroneous conclusions...

The principal (unless forbidden in the handbook and not just internal policy or custom) should be doing the paddling regardless of the gender when lacking a woman to do it and a female witness should be called upon if the student so requests. Too may variants for someone who walks on the scene.

This , as you know is my main worry.Of course in time as the students pass up the system, most will know , and be known to Renee.But to judge kids 'cold' as it were is difficult. Doctor Dominum has said before now that he can give the benefit of the doubt when he knows a boy is prone to tell the truth. Now occasionally he may get the wool pulled over his eyes, like any of us . but it is difficult to judge if you don't know the child involved.

In America you have parental opt out, and from what I've read in TWP , and I certainly know in terms of my Friend , you can use your own judgement not to paddle if , for example you think for some reason the student is unsuitable.Again we can't judge, but clues in the text about the state of Amy, after she had heard the first paddling, lead me to believe , that regardless of the situation, it would have been reasonable to call Amy a no paddle on this occasion.

I don't know how Renee would have proceeded, had she determined to paddle Amy , as Amy sounds to me to have worked herself into a state where her decision making may have been emotional , not rational, and her response to punishment to say the least unpredictable.........

If five swats is the maximum then every person who gets five from the same person should expect the same. Swats can be counted down by appeal if need be. Amy could have filled out a form and the principal could have been the judge instead of Renee for playing both judge and the executioner can give anyone the impression that she is just settling a score.


Yes in theory fine. In practice Amy would hardly be in a state to fairly acquit her arguments adequately, and if the 'appellant judge' doesn't know her ......she could be tripped up unwisely, and unfairly, by her emotional response after hearing that first paddling.Also the principal in this case had indicated his preference....paddle both, so it would hardly on this occasion been independent.

Finally your most important point

Can Amy learn something from all of this either than don't mess with Nashia? Learning about conflict resolution (Amy) and anger management (Nashia) would be a good place to start.

The aim should be learning, but when punishment and day to day contact is limited , the communication lines are not there. If Renee had been in the same school , despite how angry she was with Nashia , it would have been positive to end by offering her the opportunity to talk it over later, and work out how to avoid a repetition. The same with Amy, but neither is possible in this structure as the 'hired gun'


 
 
American Way

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

November 22 2009, 6:40 PM 

prof n Do me a favor and put on your thinking cap and go on an imagination vacation and give me three scenarios (good/bad/ugly) of what Nashia will say when you prof n (Nashia's father) ask her how was school today.

What are your questions of her and your questions of the Principal? Let's leave the hired gun out of this. My goal is not to change attitudes about color but to change policies. You're on.

 
 

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

November 24 2009, 12:03 AM 

Hi American Way,

Saw your challenge .This gives a totally different meaning to the term POP test in the USA ! happy.gif

For those in regions where English has not been replaced by American English, given the completely different meaning of 'pop test' to you you won't need the test tubes, hydrochloric acid , zinc or burning taper, but the goggles remain a must...........

If you STILL don't know what I'm blabbering about google 'pop test' choose between political science and chemistry ...........then follow the instructions. happy.gifhappy.gif


chemistry<?B>

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDlLp92sUl8

explained at

http://jeffco.k12.co.us/isu/science/IPS/T3webpage/poptest.html

political science

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/1587344/political_trivia_pop_test.html?cat=9

doesn't need explaining : just think witchcraft.




Back to the questions:-


Question one . would Nashia actually tell me what had happened?

' Hello Nashia, how was school today '

No answer.....

'Nashia switch that MP3 off . I'm, talking to you.... how did school go, OK ? '

'same old same old..

'you sure' ..

'Whatever'.

Of course if she doesn't think there will be any consequences........

' that bxxxh Amy got me paddled.'

OR if she listens to Blogrubbish radio.....

' The Principal tried to rape me.....'


On a serious level, whatever is said , or done, at home, the single issue that will enrage the father is the selection of his daughter for punishment and the freedom of Amy, when that appears to be contrary to the code. Now it has been implied that there was good reason , and these could be many , on top of the issue of s damage which is circumstantial but not accusative......so whether it is a successful gambit we will have to see.

I'm not flunking your test honest, but I don't really think it would be helpful to say more at this time....but I'll return.......that's why in the meantime you can do science or social science homework!!!!!


 
 

AW a final note.........

November 24 2009, 12:11 AM 



Hi again,

Just forget to post the following:

If you do the politics test , don't forget the answers don't matter if you are a democrat. Democrats never believe in right answers............(old Texas joke) a similar one appears in the test (hint) happy.gif happy.gif

 
 
American Way

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

November 24 2009, 2:12 AM 

I'm Nashia's father. I'm so sorry that Nashia beat up Amy. We've grounded her for a month. It isn't the first time she has been in trouble. She's got a bad temper and she's got to control that because she is so much bigger. She said some woman from over there came over to paddle them and she never saw her before but Amy knew her. Nashia knows she is wrong and isn't complaining and sure is glad you didn't call the sheriff.

Nashia doesn't think it right that Amy didn't get paddled. Nashia is really a nice kid I wish that woman knew her as well as she knew Amy. She is not complaining about being paddled but she is hurting bad for what she did but still doesn't think it is right because she fought too. And I don't either. I believe in corporal punishment but I'm opting out now. When I went to school it seemed like only the blacks kids got hit. Even the black teachers didn't want to hit the white kids I guess they were afraid of their folks. Doesn't make much difference if there is a black man in the White House if the white guy next doesn't like you but they didn't for him anyway. Does it?

My wife just read this and she is now convinced that I am black. happy.gif

 
 
American Way

Piece of Pine (POP)

November 24 2009, 2:46 AM 

prof n Pop Culture. Check out page nine.

Piece of Pine POP

 
 
Renee (TWP Editor)

Heads Up #2

November 25 2009, 2:28 AM 

Hello y'all:

Just another heads up: What Nashia knew and did NOT know will be in tomorrow night's new post.

Between packing for my family's trip to have Thanksgiving with my parents, fixing pecan pies and my famous(?) pasta side dish for the big dinner on Thursday on top of editing the TWP post with my daytime job -I'll need a 4 day weekend to recover! (Whew!)

Happy Thanksgiving!

Renee (TWP Editor)

 
 
American Way

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

November 29 2009, 6:15 PM 

Renee by more "Nashias" in your blogsite I hope you are referring to bullies in general. She does play basketball (they call fouls) and is trying to make good grades. I hope she finds someone as caring as you are with Miranda over there to help process her feelings. Irrespective of her size she is still a kid and hope she will be able to look back on this as a life long lesson and that she will be good for more than a week or simply for fear of the paddle. I'm sorry if I sound like Paula Flowe. happy.gif You are not in an enviable position as designated hitter and would suggest that you work out lines of communication with Mr Roberts as I hope someone would do with you if or when you become a Head Principal with seasoning. wink.gif

 
 
American Way

Paddling with Wedgies.

November 29 2009, 7:58 PM 

Paula Flowe is at it again. Paddling might make a boy sterile 8:00 into the video. Is a wedgie a term familiar across the pond? With baggy pants (style for boys here) it is necessary. If you start at 6:37 you will hear from a 50 year old man who was never paddled in school and would seem he suffers from PTSD from it. When Paula assumes the postion (High School Class of 1975) in a state where there was no paddling there is no doubt she is staying in shape by her pose at 8:00 minutes. wink.gif

Despite TWP urgings please do not recall Paula Flowe. What next? Moi. happy.gif

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=isWoSYTa2N8

 
 
American Way

To Renee Wendy Michelle Jenny TWP With Affection American Way

December 1 2009, 8:34 PM 

[linked image]

 
 
Renee (TWP Editor)

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

December 1 2009, 9:03 PM 

Hello American Way:

Nice artwork but I HOPE you don't think that school teacher looks anything like me.

Clue: Shoulder length red hair and pearl white smile.

And ditch the glasses -I wear contacts!

Best Regards,
Renee

 
 
Renee (TWP Editor)

New Post Alert

December 12 2009, 9:28 PM 

Hello y'all:


Just a quick "alert" from teacherswhopaddle weblog. We have an interesting new post with a teacher feature on how Jenny dealt with a "foul" mouth and a Miranda update.

The real reason for this "alert" is to ask for input from this Esteemed Forum on a segment of our latest post titled "A DISCIPLINE PLAN FROM ARIZONA" sent to us by a teacher named Sharon. It has certainly got our attention and I invite all contributors of network54 to give your opinion/thoughts on this "plan".

Best Wishes,
Renee

 
 
American Way

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

December 13 2009, 1:16 AM 

I like the idea of hand spanking children when they're small for that's what we did for ours and bad words was one of the reasons may wife spanked ours but mostly for being lippy. They inherited my forensics. happy.gif Sure rulers and paddles can be applied but the palm of the hand when applied accordingly can impart the sting proportionally. Arizona allows something other than a paddle (spanking) I don't know how common that is? Lastly according to the 2007 Office of Civil Rights data only 16 students were paddled in the entire state. Do they have to report theirs? One of the best reasons for keeping on the books can be found in her classroom. Maybe the day will come when there will be no name to shield the names when the pendulum swings back to common sense.

I know I'm writing about something that happen in the past but as you know by now I have a special place for Nashia in my heart (call me a bleeding heart), I like to believe that boys and girls are not all bad (Nashia) or not all good (Amy) but they're all needy (Nashia needed to be paddled). I do think Amy was treated fairly. If she were that beat up then hitting her would only add insult to injury. I would have told the principal right away what I did and why I did it and if he didn't back me he can find another person to do it.

I'm not sure if you interface with the high school but I hope Nashia finds a caring person like Miranda (she is lucky) has found in you. I've stopped making apologies for myself so what I am a perennial optimists when it comes to kids and any kid I've been entrusted with that wasn't mine.


 
 
Renee (TWP Editor)

Upcoming Post

December 18 2009, 9:38 PM 

Hi y'all:

I haven't heard from anyone in a while. Pro. N., how is everything? Things seem rather slow recently at this Esteemed Forum.

Well, I thought it a good idea to let everyone know that there will be 2 TWP posts back to back but they will not be published until Sunday night U.S. Eastern time.

They WILL be worth the wait!

Merry Christmas y'all,

Renee

 
 
Renee (TWP Editor)

New Post Alert #2

December 22 2009, 3:55 AM 

Hi y'all:

Just a quick note from teacherswhopaddle weblog.The best post, in our opinion, that we have ever done is now published.

Let me know what y'all think about "TWP'S CRITIQUE OF 'A DISCIPLINE PLAN FROM ARIZONA'".

Note: There may be trouble with the comment area of our blog. Wordpress is looking at it. Should be fixed soon.

Have a Merry Christmas,
Renee

 
 

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

January 8 2010, 7:31 PM 



Hi Renee,

As you probably know now , I have been laid low by serious hospital admission, but am now on the mend. Was an emergency so people didn't know. Normal service will be resumed asap whn a pc is installed in my room! Until then i am 'borrowing' access on the staff network !

Too much cable TV, even allowing for American Football!!!

Bst wishes for 2010 !


 
 
Renee (TWP Editor)

Message Update

January 9 2010, 5:37 PM 

Hi Prof. N.:

Everything is fine with my blog and I have received ALL your messages.

However, all of the contributors of TWP have agreed on this policy: All communications in the future with TWP will be done ONLY with the means provided by wordpress. No exceptions.

Of course, I will comment on occasion at this Esteemed Forum. By the way, please check out the so called forum that THE HITTING STOPS HERE has set up with regards to TWP.

Hope you have a speedy recovery!

Warmest Wishes,
Renee

 
 
R.G. Tracker-Community

Re: Message Update

January 9 2010, 6:05 PM 

Thank you, Renee. Keep commenting!

THE HITTING STOPS HERE community forum is regularly monitored by our own Man at the Ringside. See 'The Battle of the Century'

http://www.network54.com/Forum/198833/thread/1257791941/last-1262975091/The+Battle+of+the+Century


 
 
prof..n

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

January 10 2010, 11:58 AM 



Hi Renee,

Thanks for your confirmation , it was because of your ' Christmas time' communication problems, plus the odd protocols I have to use whilst on a borrowed hospital computer, I wondered.

Mea maxima culpa, I realised after I mailed you I was breaking your protocol, and thought I should have suggested using 54, but you beat me to it ! I stand duly corrected!!Good job I'm not a student in Arizona,let alone Memphis heaven only knows how many demerits/licks that would attract!!!!!

On a serious note , I will be interested to read how Paula, Jestin and co deal with your coherent position on Arizona, given their previous comments on you and your colleagues.That will be a real intellectual challenge !!!

Best wiahes to you all.




 
 
American Way

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

January 10 2010, 12:28 PM 

prof n. Sorry you're not up to par. I am in complete agreement about Memphis however a poster made a reasonable (in loco parentis) but not convincing to me defense on the schools behalf. Taechers (professional) shouldn't be bound by the unreasonable (IMHO) will of the parents.

Arizona teacher me thinks is a pester. Look how many children were paddled in a course of a year statewide in 2006-2007 just 16. It is so out of line I would be surprised parents wouldn't be complaining by now if the regime was for real. CP has come back out of nowhere in that school and I believe there would be some parents making a stink by now. They're wasting the girls time unless they have explicit identification between each other. Office of Civil Rights report (I so frequently quote from) seems very difficult in it's new format now if you haven't entered the site as of late and probably deliberately so IMHO. sad.gif

http://www.stophitting.com/index.php?page=statesbanning

 
 
Renee (TWP Editor)

Update

January 21 2010, 3:45 AM 

Hi y'all:

I got your note American Way and No, I was not offended by the schoolmarm art. Our next post this weekend will certainly demonstrate how un-schoolmarmish we really are! The rest of your insights were informative and we will comment on them later.

Prof. N., I checked the handbook of the Memphis Academy of Health Sciences and there was NO mention of c.p. in ANY way. I think someone is NOT telling the truth and they are somewhere on the West (nutty) coast.

If the antis hated us before, they will go nuclear over our CLOSE ENCOUNTERS I & II for sure. Hey, those episodes are all totally innocent but just wait...

Well, its my Tyler's "tucking in" time so take care!

Renee

 
 
American Way

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

January 21 2010, 12:59 PM 

Page 11 Student Handbook

Consequences may include parental contact, a time out period, a verbal reprimand or warning, before school, after school, or lunch
detention, work details, corporal punishment Mr. Wood, in-school suspension, out-of-school suspension, and/or expulsion. Serious
violations may also include the involvement of local law enforcement agencies. Also, violators must appear before MAHS Honor
Court and/or Governing Board.


IMHO Using "Mr. Wood" on record (student handbook) is giving anti-cp zealots fodder especially when it gives credence to an unverifiable student who lightly vein mentions a paddle set aside for major offenses that the students call the "Terminator". Classroom management is not a laughing matter. I'm a Notre Dame fan so I follow college football and I've seen their football star founder play in college. I'm sure he has a good heart and is giving back by facing a challenging task and has the parents backing but as a professional educator he should have no part in his corporal punishment regime.

"Sharon's" ploy was to have you defend a make believe awful regime and then say you endorse it. Forwarned is forarmed. Renee et. al. Keep up your good work as profeesional educators and as you well know the Paddle has to go Paula is no match.


 
 
prof.n

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

January 21 2010, 1:14 PM 

Hi Renee,

I was worried by the Memphis academy because if you google mempis academy of helth sciences - corporal unishment :

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=memphis+school+of+health+sciences+corrporal+punishment&btnG=Search&cts=1264069823297&aq=f&aq

you get 3,500 hits or should I say licks?

Now being where I am at present (hospital room) I dont have access to more sophisticated search facilities, but I do think , no smoke without fire, particularly as the Principal doesn't deny many of the accusations.

I've sent some detailed references to you on your blog, but didnt link them here for copyright reasons.

 
 

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

January 21 2010, 1:55 PM 



Renee , American way and anyone else reading this link,

Just re read my last post. I'm not dyslexic ....honest , but just dont like the laptop keyboard, not positive enough....well thats my excuse!

 
 
Renee (TWP Editor)

Mea Culpa!

January 21 2010, 8:20 PM 

Hello American Way:

I stand corrected on the Memphis school handbook!

I didn't read the ENTIRE book online but rather -Just page 7 "Student Discipline Policy" which had NO mention of c.p. AW, your quote is from page 11 which is supposedly "Academic Honor Code".

Whooo, I'm ticked off now! The VERY IDEA of trying to hide a c.p. policy turns yours truly against the entire program at the school.

I believe the best c.p. policy (If there is one) should be clear, upfront and a last option before suspension.

I will have more to say in a future post.

Regards,
Renee

 
 
prof.n

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

January 23 2010, 10:36 AM 







Hi Renee,

A quote in full from 'Stop the hitting now':-

A Special Note to TWP:
As you said, "Alls well that ends well." Well, that only applies to Wendy, for Shad, that is a different story. What the four of you seem to not grasp, a paddling is not something you get over with like a bad relationship. It follows you for the rest of your life, till the day you die. I have come across elderly men and women who claim to remember how a their elementary school teachers disciplined them and most of the time, it was with the paddle. So, when you feel like swinging that paddle, remember this. You are damaging a child, however you like to turn it around, the students may seem to like you, but ask yourselves if it is actually genuine or done out of fear


Written by 'Safepass chair' - I didn't know a piece of furniture could write, but then we all learn something new every day!

More seriously, yes you DO remember a paddling : and hopefully you remember WHY you got it as well. As for mistakes, yes you can't take a paddling back, but we are all human, and it was clear Shad bore no grudge ,even kids know when people genuinely try their best, mistakes can happen.

You can't beat yourself up for ever over a mistake, and mistakes can happen with punishments , detention, suspension, in house isolation anything. Hey safepass chair aren't you human, like the rest of us?

'to err is human : to forgive divine'

I was once punished unjustly, and it was a really severe strapping at that. When I got home and m Dad found out what happen, he just said 'These things happen, son, we have to deal with them : we can all make mistakes.' Wendy , and Alexis in your most recent blog , made genuine mistakes, but they acted as they thought was right at the time. They shouldn't beat themselves up for that. As for Shad and Simon, its unfortunate and if an apology can be given , so much the better, buit the experience will, strangely have taught them something valuable about the real world and , as Shakespeare puts it ' the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune'.

Safepass there is plenty of real abuse out there for you to condemn: stop picking on people who are trying their best and who clearly have a social conscience

 
 
Renee (TWP Editor)

Heads Up Again

January 26 2010, 8:30 PM 

Hello Prof. N.:

Thanks for your critique of SAFEPASS but a Tony Brian really uped the ante on thehittingstopsher website. Check out the sicko picture portraying me. I really think this dude has MAJOR mental problems.

Coming up on our next post is a special feature in which we will be "nuking" a few so called educators who are really child abusers.

As to Alexis, we are working with her and James (Wendy's spouse) in trying to locate Scott and his mom by way of a court records search. If anything comes up, we will do an update post.

On Sharon, we finally contacted the largest newspaper in Arizona to check this story out. (Arizona Republic)If we hear anything, we will post it pronto!

All the best
Renee

 
 

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

January 27 2010, 1:38 PM 

Hi Renee,

At least Brian doesn't call himself brain, because thats a department where he is clearly lacking.

I can respect those people who have a moral or ethical objection to cp . I think they are wrong, but I will argue rationally with them and respect their position. I certainly understand those who oppose it because of an abusive experience. In my view there is only one place for abusers and that is jail.

All objecting parents have to do is to opt their kids out of paddling, but realise that this is not opting themselves out of the obligation of supporting teachers maintain a disciplined classroom. And opting out may mean someone staying at home with their kid if s/he gets suspended. Too often some anti cp parents would be better defined as anti discipline per se, and that is NOT acceptable .

As for the kids , well my friend Jackie tells me that in her experience as Principal she spent more time on the phone interceding for those who wanted licks , rather than Saturday school, but whose parents had opted out. The other direction ( kids who could be paddled but were unwilling to cooperate )there were less than a handful in her whole career, but she would never force compliance , to her that crossed the line. She is proud that she never got a complaint that she had paddled too hard in her career, but did have a number of opt out parents who often having reluctantly agreed to a paddling, later commented on the improved behaviour of their offspring.

As to the photo /cartoon ; well it reduced my respect for Paula and her organisation.Don't post something like that and then expect legislators to take you seriously.You're coming down to the level of 'whackerville'. Paula, a piece of free advice : watch your comrades closely !



Best wishes

Prof.n

 
 
Renee (TWP Editor)

Parental consent vs. complaints

January 28 2010, 8:31 PM 

Hi Prof. N. :

As to parental consent, I have yet to come across a parent who objects to their child being paddled when I call them. That is my policy as the assistant principal and c.p. is considered only after multiple I.S.S. sanctions. In the next post, however; I did decide on c.p. as a first resort -But that WAS merited as readers will see when the post is published. One thing: The two kids wanted ME to do it! I guess Matt must have told EVERYONE that I paddle easier than the coaches. Well, when I witness a coach giving a paddling -He WILL do it as I would.

On parental complaints, I have never had a single one in the 9 years I have been an educator on about 18 paddlings. Same for the others apart from one false complaint in post HOW JENNY HANDLED A PARENT'S PADDLING COMPLAINT. In WENDY'S WORST(?) PADDLING, she actually got a Mike out of serious trouble from his mom who asked about a "red rear end" the next day.

There ARE abusive situations and our next post will cover two cases. But with the care we take, we do not expect anything worse than initial stinging rear ends and some short term discomfort. In fact, to avoid any possibility of bruising, we had kids who were paddled at the elementary school sit out recess on the steps leading out to the playground. Why? Because just one tumble on a tender bottom and there would be a bruise. None of us at TWP wanted that!

Take care,
Renee

 
 
prof.n

consent , complaints and the paddle

January 29 2010, 5:52 PM 

Hi Renee

Thanks for your reply you say :-

That is my policy as the assistant principal and c.p. is considered only after multiple I.S.S. sanctions.

My friend Jackie's period of office in High School ran from the 70s until the turn of the Millennium, when she was promoted to a district wide post. This therefore ran from a period where paddling was routine, indeed there was a queue every day of those with 'pinkies' (discipline referrals) which ranged from tardies, ( 3 and you got 'automatic' swats) to more serious issues., to the start of the period when c.p. was reserved as largely an ultimate deterrent.

The student code she inherited relied largely upon swats and a 'substantial' Saturday school as alternative for those who were opted out. Also the class teachers could paddle up to 3 swats outside the classroom for any minor infraction, these were neither reported nor counted in the annual cp returns which in those days exceeded 2 million reported paddlings by administrations across the South.

She hated the idea of 'automatic ' penalties, although she was quite in favour in the classroom, because the teacher who observes the indiscipline deals with it, and obviously can determine how seriously or otherwise to treat the infraction. Even two 3 swat paddlings can be very different , from a gentle warning to pull up a student , to a serious punishment, When referred to administration it is often difficult , at a distance to deal with that, and even in the case of tardies a student must have a chance to explain their actions .

She first introduced a code on how paddling had to be carried out, as I have said was very similar to your code. The coaches revolted because of the standardization of paddles and the limitation of degree of punishment. In the end she had to remove paddling rights from them as they refused to regularise their approach. Over the years the student code became more 'humane' , and she reduced the total number of paddlings vastly.

I had been asked by Jackie to come over and complete my final year of school in the U.S.( In those days we did an extra year in the UK if you wanted Oxbridge and certain Medical school entry- I could have done Oxbridge exams in the States , and she thought followed a social science/core curriculum She had persuaded the board to agree to my admission,and I could live with her and Merl : but her dean of students Di , whom I had met twice , wrote a long letter to me trying to be frank about what she felt I would feel about going to High School in Texas, especially living with the Principal !She said it was a bad idea!

She was not sure that in a final year I would make the transition. It was asking an awful lot , and , for example Jackie wouldn't be happy if I wasnt on the honor list....what Di thought was an unfair expectation in a new country with new friends and the opposite! She would hate me to get there and be really unhappy, and feel all at sea if not seasick! (I'm friends with both now-and yes Jackie knows about Di's letter !!) And the 70s wasnt 2010..you couldnt just jump a plane home if you didn't like travel cost big bucks!

More apposite to this site , Di warned me that I was likely ( in those days) to get paddled a good few times, because students can be cruel to 'newbies', but if or rather when , I found myself with a pinkie take it to her or Jackie straight away ; don't wait until the end of school line. At least that way I would be dealt with reasonably; just go 'on the list' and I might be paddled by a coach, Some were fine, and dealt reasonably with students but some she wouldn't want anyone to experience, and she said honestly these, the split baseball bat brigade, she wouldn't let anywhere near her son !

So it looks as though this might still be a problem today .....even the Shelly Gaspersohn case, which I know disturbed both Jackie and Di at the time; seems to have had at its centre a promoted coach who although seemingly a decent bloke ( in the way he originally dealt and talked with Shelly ) paddled exceptionally hard.

My only comment on ISS is that as detention drove me spare , I would have hated ISS. Actually my worry is that doesnt it hit bright kids the worst? In that they are excluded from learning and thats what school is all about. Believe me , I would have pleaded for swats!

How time has changed education !

Kind regards,


Nev.

 
 
Renee (TWP Editor)

REPLY ON ANGELA

January 29 2010, 11:31 PM 

Hello again Prof. N.

On the Angela episode, I must differ with you on one regard. You elaborated about your relationship with Jackie -And that is great! But in this day and time, it is driven into the heads of all educators to put as much distance as possible between our students and ourselves outside the classroom. In the Angela case, Kevin MAY have had "issues" but Angela's single mistake, in my opinion, was BEING Kevin's teacher. Because of the prior connection, Kevin had a hard time seeing Angela as more than his former babysitter. This backfired on both but my understanding is that each have moved on and are friendly although not close.

With all due respect to a retired educator (Jackie), I could NEVER bring myself to mention giving a former student of mine a paddling! It would be too embarrassing to me! (Check out CLOSE ENCOUNTERS I & II) Maybe Angela's slip of the tongue had a lot to do with the problem they had.

For sure, things have changed since you were a lad!

Regards,
Renee

 
 
prof.n

Angela/Kevin

January 30 2010, 6:01 PM 

Hi Renee,

I certainly take your point :

But in this day and time, it is driven into the heads of all educators to put as much distance as possible between our students and ourselves outside the classroom

I know this even extends to the Universities as well. when I started teaching let alone as a student there was just this vague clause about 'gross moral turpitude......' which ,once you were tenured was about the only thing you could be dismissed for. For a definition of what it meant I guess we would have been driven to the US State Department who still used it even recently on I-94's (visa wavers)....presumably they knew.....?

But now there are codes of conduct......notification procedures etc etc....and this between consenting adults,

One of the strange features of our time: whilst kids grow up quickly , more so than in my days, we treat them as needing more protection and control , even when the law regards them as adults.

With all due respect to a retired educator (Jackie), I could NEVER bring myself to mention giving a former student of mine a paddling!

Again I understand. This is probably a generational thing. I guess in the 70's very few people ( certainly Jackie' view) got through the school grades without at least one paddling. Given so many were administered outside the classroom in the corridor, and never recorded, 'automatic paddling' for demerits and tardies...even for parking in the staff car park(!) its difficult to assess how true that was.....but the thing is I'm sure the way she , Di , and others who taught then regarded it as commonplace and almost a right of passage....certainly for boys....... She would never think it was embarrassing at all! After as she wrote on her 1970s paddling guidance words to the effect .. Remember weve all been though it ourselves.

For sure, things have changed since you were a lad!

But the two things that I thank her for are really teaching me what some would call 'Alamo values' , always go forward, never look back, stand tall, take you place as a leader , and never give in. As to what you've done, well you can't undo the past however sorry you are , however much you regret your choices, so just be strong, don't whine , but take the consequences, and then get back on your horse! Don't get me wrong , she appreciated your apology, but it didn't alter the punishment.

The latter is so different from the 'negotiated order' which was starting to be prevalent in English education at the time...you know 'I'm a very good student , look at my record and let me have a pass this time......No way!' ( hint that was me , and I had been very successful at it !!!) That's why she thought the idea of exempting the brightest from the cane was totally and utterly misguided, plus it had positively harmful consequences for the individuals concerned and the school . Every choice has its consequence, and that's what you must face- and that's the regime she ran!

And are those values useful. Well they think they are here in the hospital, if only in the way they help me face my current disability , not to succumb to it, or look back on the 1000/1 chance that caused it , and not give in to accepting I am 'disabled' but, rather to come out fighting and overcome it .

Strange déjà vu today , I had physio ( definite southern US accent) who commented on my determination and success ( or grit as she put it ) which was so different from much she sees in the hospital here . She said you have a very unusual reaction to what you've faced . This is the attitude I remember they tried to teach us back home.....where I asked? East Texas! That made me laugh!

So did the fact that both she and I had played in ( redskin) dodgeball teams, or , as she put it pure legalised violence in a gym! They had Dodgeball Fridays once a month in High School when everyone HAD to play .The team were in heaven! As for the others some loved it others loathed it, and many riskedthe choice of ISS or coach's paddle by cutting gym! ! .Right or wrong dodgeball certainly toughened you up!

So, Renee, I hope everything hasn't changed, Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater as we say here!

kind regards

Nev.

 
 

A translation

January 30 2010, 7:00 PM 

My physio read my last post and suggested the the non US audience might get all sorts of odd ideas about the term 'redskin' dodgeball. essentially today dodgeball can be played with a hard ball ( redskin) - self explanatory ( if you are ever hit by one)- and because the balls are usually reddish orange.

A new 'safe' ball was developed in reaction to a couple of court decisions either in California, or, New England or somewhere less well known which shares the educational values of the non paddling states which ruled that dodgeball was dangerous and unfit for schools.

This is a soft (appropriately , my new Texan friend tells me often coloured chicken (yellow!!))ball which is deemed safe. In this version the rules have also been modified to restrict the area of the body allowed to be struck with the ball, and the amount of force used. Probably excellent for junior schools, where the old game could be a bit on the rough side.

Do not fear the original version is retained in most of the red (paddling) States, but is pejoratively referred to as extreme dodgeball by some zealots.


I wonder if Paula and Brian ever played? As for Safepass chair, well a chair would have some difficulty wouldn't it ?


And in case you have never seen it (Grand Valley versus Kentucky clip 1) :-

http://www.dipity.com/timetube/YouTube_Grand_Valley_Dodgeball


What the second clip is about your guess is as good as mine!!!!

 
 
Renee (TWP Editor)

Dodge Ball

January 30 2010, 8:34 PM 

Hello again Prof. Nev.:

I'm a recovering Dodgeball "victim" you could say -Courtesy(?) of my three older brothers three on one version! Guess who the "one" was?

As a teacher, I did allow Dodgeball on the playground as long as participation was VOLUNTARY. Some kids will use Dodgeball as a cover for bullying and that is when trouble started with me.

Of course I let kids be kids and I do let a LITTLE of the kid in me show herself. A few years ago, I was calling everyone in as recess ended and one Dodgeball boy HIT ME WITH THE BALL ON MY SIDE HIP! You should have heard the MEA Culpas and the "I didn't mean to -I was aiming at somebody else! excuses (Yeah...Right!). Hey, I do have a sense of humor (Devilish) so I told the boy not to fret because he was not in trouble THIS TIME but not to do that again! As the boy turned around to head in, I picked up the ball and zinged him exactly as he had done me. Everyone had a good laugh release moment then as I explained that I had prior experience in Dodgeball myself. However, I did make it clear that my Dodgeball days were over and any future attempt to zing me would result in loss of recess time or worse.

Teachers CAN have a sense of humor as long as they do not forget who they are: Adult authority figures.

All rhe best,
Renee

 
 
prof,n

DODGEBALL!!!!

January 31 2010, 8:40 PM 


Hi Renee,

Thanks for your reply,

I suppose dodgeball is the ideal situation for a bully. As my team was , apart from me comprised of expat exiles from the US and were all older , most unfortunately PE instructors (ex school and army) and Football coaches, which meant most people played , in a adult league, to a very high standard.....me? I just played blocker .....badly , and was frequently berated by the more aggressive members of the team -I think they were keeping their hand in at maintaining a good line in verbal encouragement (?) for which their professions are renound.......

Anyway I was , one way and another knocked into shape , and after a game we did go for an excellent meal steaks only of course!) ...where I and Merl were allowed low alcohol larger, whilst everybody else drank Bud with Jack chasers.

Jackie did establish a team at school in due curse and at least by then I was seen as quite expert.........

I just thought you might smile at these clips...particularly the Georgia six versus 10,000 !
{ you may need to allow the first video to load fully before playback )

First Georgia shows Texas how it should be played.........
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sr5VNQp

And 10,006 in Atlanta Georgia playing dodgeball!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dzSu0buvpNI

This is an actual high school doge ball session , and is a warning of what can happen if your instructor is a mean quarterback......(sorry Renee the kid who gets the rough deal from coach is called Tyler...... !!!!!!)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RDICs0txdV4



Kind regards,

Nev.

 
 
prof,n

faulty url

February 1 2010, 6:42 PM 



Hi Renee, eveybody

Am informed the URL on the first link is u/s so here goes again. If you do get it on screen you might have to press play and manually hold the round play cursor at start until about one third of the film has loaded ( light pink line~) to avoid a game of stop start.

Worth watching but is the failure to properly announce on film the sole female player ( in the Georgia team) another glitch, or something else.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sr5VNQpnC0U

Paula and the Brain : I'm sure this will concern you greatly, but answers to NDL please!



Best wishes to y'all

Nev.

 
 

teachers Who Paddle fake

February 2 2010, 7:43 PM 

the teachers who paddle their fake not real teachers,. i talk with the Tennessee state department of education and f they were they be fired. also i email them a number of tmes they write back . i love for them to email me back.
also it's illegal in missouri always has been but the law isn't enforced. i live in missouri i know the law.

so TEACHERS WHO PADDLE PLEAE email me i really want to talk with you.

hfhbd1934@yahoo.com

 
 
Renee (TWP Editor)

"rick" & Due Process

February 2 2010, 10:05 PM 

Hello Prof. N:

As to "rick", I got the same weird message at my blog. I think network54's site manager needs to blacklist "rick" and teacherswhopaddle will do like wise.

FYI: Both states mentioned above are legal school c.p. states.

Pro. N.,I got your message about "due process" and, of course I agree that educators who are to be terminated, as TWP's last post called for, must be given a full hearing. TWP's next post will have your comments and my reply.

Regards,
Renee

 
 
American Way

RUBBER BAND WARRIORS

February 7 2010, 12:29 PM 

TWP from their last week of January posting was as follows "the result: Two stinging rear ends for Jerry and Dick who will NOT being flinging rubber bands around any time soon." Although my matrix includes a similar penalty for throwing objects I would classify it as horseplay and unless specifically warned (not the whole school in general) I would not consider it a paddle worthy offense. It obviously is her call and not mine and a judgment call in any case but that being said Im sure many of us have been guilty of a similar offense but unless it involved a paper clip it is not an activity likely to cause permanent vision loss. In addition to instructions I have included rubber band war videos that would cause Renee to apply for repetitive stress disability. happy.gif Are these incidences cane worthy? Can they cane in the country that this was happening?

On another matter bruises may not be the intent of any paddling but on the secondary school level it would be hard to imagine a 5 swatter of the kind that Renee administered to Nashia sad.gif involving that paddle with an impact of her delivery that would leave little doubt that there would be bruising in my mind clearly visible. Many may feel nothing less painful would make an impression on that age group and might use that as an argument for its discontinuance for that group. Winona MO gets it right IMHO when it gives a heads up to the parents before they choose whether to opt out what the state of their childs bottom may appear. Giving bruises is not Renees intent but two stinging rear ends .

http://pages.cs.wisc.edu/~roy/magictalk-wisdom/discussions/shooting_rubber_band.html

http://www.youtube.com/user/j935091#p/a/u/0/eatfGdUevQQ

 
 
prof.n

time well spent ?

February 7 2010, 6:15 PM 


Tony Brian (aka the brain), assistant executive Director for the hitting stops here, (Paula Flowe) has just published what I guess by its length is a shot at his first chapter for a first book. It is called 'time well spent' ,and yes, is an anthology of his attacks on TWP.(Teachers who paddle)

You can find it at :-

http://thehittingstopshereurstory.com/forum/index.php?topic=267.0

Essentially the central thesis is that TWP should shut up and spend their time in other educational activities rather than discuss classroom discipline and punishment. According to tony any teacher who writes about let alone practices in paddling is engaging in 'kiddie porno'. He accuses TWP of ignoring the educational needs of their students , apparently engaging in irrelevant and dangerous discussions on cp instead of spending time preparing properly for their teaching

This is my view , from afar , on the other side of the pond, of his contribution. I may be a Brit, Tony but I know the US and particularly the South quite welland I do respect their educational provision, particularly the dedication of the teachers I have met, and their genuine belief they are trying to provide the best education in academic and ethical terms for the kids. If you really try to READ what these Ladies are saying in the blog overall I think that concern shines through.I know you will disagree so lets look at why we read this differently ,,,,,,,,,

Renee recently indicated she had paddled only 18 students in her entire career of nine years. A whole two students per year..........all of an hour of her time in nine years teaching......... Tony I bet it took you longer to write your anthology..........As Katherine indicated in her contribution to the current TWP blog, going back one paddling a day was no unsual in an elementary class, ands I guess Jackie , my mentor in the 70s, probably got through 18 in a week , what with automatic referrals for tardies, demerits and a very large high school in number terms .

Firstly lets put to one side the 'kiddie porn ' accusation.

You cannot seriously suggest that TWP are negligent teachers in their preparation, execution or assessment of their teaching . Not only are they clearly, trusted by parents and the community, they are liked and respected by their students- even the students who have been paddled like them - , which is the real test particularly of an elementary teacher. From even a cursory examination of their blog they also spend considerable time in preparation, marking and assessment , like any teacher. Because they are teaching in the South, and as an impartial observer of the US system, I would say, they are a little more serious about classroom manners and discipline, and they read student actions in a less 'liberal' way than , say some teachers in the Northern States or California . This is a cultural difference , and was reflected in their upbringing....again have you read the Renee chronicles? Actually I think the South ' has the up 'on the rest of the US her, and produces a well mannered, more civil society, but that's just my take on it , you may disagree.

Tony, what we agree on is abuse. I will shout as loud as you against abuse, and clearly excessive punishments which have been inflicted , for example in the Shelly Gaspersohn case , and others we could mention.

What we disagree on is that I believe there is a role for reasonable moderate paddling. Although a Brit ,on occasions I was also a brat, and, being at some time brought up by Jackie , a Southern Lady who was a school administrator.(Vice Principal then Principal ) I was, very occasionally, ( and only if I crossed a so called red line!), paddled or strapped , always moderately, and without anger. Not only did it do me no olharm , it brought me up sharply , and reinforced the lesson that there are no actions without consequences, something teenagers often forget !

I wasn't paddled for trivia , but for things which are important in life- for example ,smoking, ( which made sure I didnt kill myself early) , and lying ( well in the South I discovered there is no such thing as a white lie ; and its sure true you can't trust a liar however well meaning), and , of course , sass! By TWP standards I was dealt with quite harshly , in my day up to 12 swats of the paddle was the norm for really serious offences , five was a sort of minimum. Three was said to be a 'lil' ol warning'. Luckily I never got the full dose!

Today when these ladies give normally 3 or 5 , sometimes only two regulated swats the potential for damage is near nil .To accuse them of abuse is unacceptable. You may disapprove . Fine. But what they do is lawful, approved by the parents and school board, and quite normal in the South, and strongly backed by the community However explaining this from their perspective gives people a choice .they can withdraw their kids from the risk of corporal punishment, and at least they do this n full knowledge of what is involved. . Of course that doesnt mean I would support the alleged activities at the Memphis academy charter school.public punishments and risking hands is a non starter in my book, regardless of parental support.

Personally I would feel my children were in the best possible hands with these ladies, either at elementary level or in High School as an administrator. Why? Because they would be in a safe disciplined classroom and school,, where in my view they will be treated with kindness and respect. Any punishment would be moderate and proportionate, and I wouldnt be risking either indiscipline, or any damage to the children.

What I find unacceptable about your approach to this issue is that for an organisation with a strapline :

'A CAMPAIGN FOR TEACHING KINDNESS AND RESPECT IN SCHOOLS EVERYWHERE'

which is a admirable goal, you operate in a manner which shows neither kindness ,respect, or civility to your opponents.

Oh I dont mean an odd joke, but you work by threats ,intimidation, and this whole kiddie porn issue. In that regard look to your own associated sites, and whackerville in particular , if you think it : that tells a lot You cant expect to both act as a guerrilla movement hounding individuals and blogs and be recognised as a pressure group and respected lobby group. Lobby groups have to be bigger than that! Decide which you are ; you cant be both - and surely youve bigger and more lofty objectives than to attempt to squash a little blog from Georgia, and rub out their first amendment rights?

If you want popular support to get rid of abuse ,fine, Your problem is that you define the whole teaching profession who support moderate cp as abusers. By doing that you alienate the middle ground , and leave the genuine case of abuse unprotected.ou havent learned the lesson of the tea party movement!

I respect absolutely your right to argue against corporal punishment : it is an honest and a principled position, which in Britain won the day . Whether that victory improved our school discipline is , I would venture, a serious matter of debate. I believe that for the average child the schools are today often a more violent environment than they were with corporal punishment, but that is a matter for debate and rational argument.

To use the epithets that all supporters of cp are porno kinky or child abusers is ludicrous, irrational rhetoric which undermines the very points you wish to make. Look to successful campaigns for the eradication of corporal punishment , STOPP in Britain for example. They lobbied ceaselessly, but did not slur their opponents.....or refuse to debate rationally.

Think again about your slogan , Tony, and perhaps take some advice from over the pond , and stop verbally abusing these ladies, and get down to the real educational argument itself. Then you might be seen as a serious political force not a bunch of zealots. And then I guess TWP might be more willing debate you on a level playing field.

 
 

Bob T

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

February 7 2010, 8:11 PM 

I just wanted to point out that "Rick' is wrong about the law in Missouri. It is still legal to use CP in public schools. Most school districts have banned it though.

I think I have already made my position clear on the subject. However I realize things have changed since I was in school. I don't really have any problem with situations where the student is given a choice between swats and detention or some other punishment. That way the student has some control over what happens to them. It's the "take the swats or get suspended or expelled" policy that I oppose.

 
 

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

February 7 2010, 9:19 PM 

I did want to end my message to tony with a copy of the whackerville Texas cartoon.....but it won't download -spoilsports. However I was then informed that infact the slogan 'don't mess with Texas' which Whackerville uses , is in fact copyright the Department of Transportstion of the State of Texas, and has been so since 1986. Any use other than official releases need DOTSOT approval

Sorry to rain on Whackervilles parade...............but it looks like a breach of the rules !


SWATS OR I.S. Guys?



So Tony here is the genuine article .


[linked image]

 
 
American Way

Rubber Band War

February 7 2010, 9:32 PM 

If Renee is going to paddle so infrequently something more must be going on than slinging rubber bands for those boys to be among the paddled few unless it was an out and out act of defiance and I assume weren't first offenders. I trust Renee but I do find it somewhat puzzling unless it is the tip of an iceberg.

I can't believe the indifference joined by the guy and the girl teaching to the rubber bands and the cameras shown in the rubber band wars. Unless I'm mistaken these boys were in the same age group as TWP paddled boys. Just curious but did the girl slap the boy in the face because she was just pelted and did you by chance catch any girl slinging a rubber band in the videos.

 
 
Renee (TWP Editor)

Rubber Band Wars

February 11 2010, 3:06 AM 

Hello American Way:

FYI: The two boys paddled DID have an extensive history of unrelated trips to my office prior to the "rubber band" incident. That was a factor in my decision.

Also, early in the school year,the following was announced every day for a week at mid-day homeroom meetings:

There has been an on-going problem with students flipping others with rubber bands AND OTHER OBJECTS. This is to cease NOW before someone is struck in the eye. NO EXCEPTIONS: All such activities will be dealt with severely starting Monday of next week. Teachers are to send students caught "rubber band flipping" to the front office.

So, the students KNOW the policy and it has been in place since early in the school year.

Regards,
Renee

 
 
American Way

Happy 200th Anniversary Almost

February 11 2010, 1:11 PM 

Thanks Renee.

Let's give TWP an honor after all Renee is the editor and frequent poster. One of the few woman posters not to mentionand soon to be the only person actively administering corporal punishment from this estimable Forum. Let's not make her wait like Kartika. happy.gif She doesn't make her young chargers wait. happy.gif

Teachers Who Paddle American Way 197 Feb 11, 2010, 3:06 AM

 
 


Diversify!

February 11 2010, 1:33 PM 

Why dont you let us try it in another cultural way from what you are used to there in U.S.?

 
 
American Way

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

February 11 2010, 2:20 PM 

Rubber Band Warrior Girl

4:26 I caught her. You better cane her to make an example or there will be double trouble. How unlady like! And sneaky! sad.gif Dr Dominum should cane the boys and Renee should paddle that girl. happy.gif And then it would become a contest or maybe not? wink.gif


 
 
prof.n

equality

February 11 2010, 4:55 PM 


Hi American Way,

What about equality.......liberty eqality fraternity, but different sex differing treatment ????? :)Surely not happy.gifhappy.gif

I'm, sure Jenny would join me on this one !!!!

Swats for one and the cane for all?
United they stand divided .......they are unequal..........happy.gifsad.gifsad.gif

 
 

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

February 14 2010, 8:41 AM 

Hi American Way,

It was more appropriate in housekeeping terms. Im sure youll agree to put issues re Memphis here.

My position on Memphis is simple. Unlike you I cannot support a school, regardless of its community support which engages in :

Public paddling and strapping
Giving ten stokes of the strap and up to 15 licks of the paddle
Suspending those students who are unable to complete the punishment until such time as they do complete it .
Engages in displays of public punishment throughout the school.


When I see abuse I call it abuse.

You have in the past been very worked up over holed paddles and the brace position..These are as nothing compared to the issue in Memphis

Finally if the school is so proud of its activities why does it not specify public punishment, hand strapping and the rest in its prospectus?.

 
 
American Way

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

February 14 2010, 12:51 PM 

Some of the details you elicited are from anti-CP zealots and for the life of me I can't find the PDF URL that addresses some of your concerns. The man in charge wtote a letter not defending point by point each allegation but assured the oarents that thy didn't hear both sides. I'm sure TWP is familiar with this and may have explained the manner they first reacted to Memphis. My suggestion is to cool the aspersions. Silence doesn't always mean consent. I've said before this school is a school they select and there wouldn't be a waiting list if all shared your visceral response. IMHO mine was premature negative reaction and TWP prematurely positive reaction and yours is both an over reaction and seems fixed in stine as were the few areas that we have agreed and disgreed. My reaction to TWP has always been mixed positive while yours is totally positive. I'm a true child of the sixties and never put my hand down in class though I had less need than most to go to the bathroom. There were no men so I didn't like the nuns behind me when I peed. I pretended that the paper human target was my eight grade teacher. I was so naive even at 13 not to know why girls rooms didn't have urinals. I should have taken aim instead of plesing the nun and not wetting the floor. O'm not over dramatizing so what I went through must have been traumatizing. sad.gif Having found exception so rarely I actually lie the fact that I can learn from you how to learn both gracefully and amicably disagre. The holes and the brace positions sre only two of the less egregious difference while holes and I'm sure TWP find the most egregious though thy are more than capable of speaking for themselves. Not to pick a fight but my wife is a softball coach and she feels that there is a lot of negative stereotyping going on here. Don't mess with Texas but don't mess with her. She's a catcher. happy.gif

 
 
prof.nw

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

February 14 2010, 4:04 PM 

Hi American Way,


Well yes anti cp zealots and pro zealots have a lot in common.One sees abuse everywhere, one sees it nowhere.

The thing about Memphis is the basic FACTS are just not disputed

public punishment in 'assemblies'
beating of girls hands 10 times , required no flinching or the count starts again.
10/15 swat paddlings etc.
Any student not complying with the cp, or unable to take it is excluded until they take the entire punishment
The only school to follow this procedure is ,almost if not exclusively, all black.


What is disputed is whether this constitutes abuse, and whether any racial community can define social norms and standards within an inclusive community.(Reverse discrimination or the pre 1960 American Way south of the Mason Dixon?)

If it isnt then lets go back to the days of the 60's, because TWP and their moderate corporal punishment becomes an utter joke!

With respect AW you can't support TWP's agenda AND support Memphis.

My position on corporal punishment in High School is probably slightly different from Renee. Whilst I accept in the ideal world we wouldn't have it, I think that it serves a valuable purpose when given safely, moderately , and sparingly in a supportive and caring environment.

As far as I can see those conditions are not met in the Memphis case.


http://www.wreg.com/wreg-charterdiscipline-story,0,3557529.story

http://www.teachercomplaints.com/complaints/Public-Beatings-Corporal-Punishment_52.0.15.html


'I want to tell my story
said one of them so young and bold,
I want to tell my story,
but I fear that I'm turning into gold.

And no-one really could hear them
the night so dark and thick between
but I guess that these heros must always live there
where you and I have only been. '

Leonard Cohen .

 
 
American Way

Misguided and Misinformed Give Truth a Chance

February 14 2010, 6:54 PM 

prof n how blessed are their young charges to have a man who they can look up to and they want to be just look at the man the young boy is looking at in the mirror none other than it would appear than Bernal Smith II. Its heartening to know the school of 300 of 6th/7th/8th graders will have a newly instituted 9th grade says the prez because real men are giving real time. Like the late Michael Jackson inspirational song Man in the Mirror.

http://100blackmenofmemphis.org/home.html

http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/michaeljackson/maninthemirror.html

Do you really think Memphis is Selma back then? Ask TWP what they think about people putting the onus on the South? Give truth a chance my friend or at least listen to hcj. Paula Flowe can't go one round with Bernal Smith II never mind Curtis Weathers. Give her some money if you believe so strongly or better still write to him via his email address and address your grievences and concerns.

an email they received was from Bernal Smith II, the president of 100 Black Men, the organization that sponsors Memphis Academy for Health Sciences. Smith told those concerned about his school discipline practices they were misguided and misinformed. Smith drafted this letter describing the chapel experience. He says they discuss student misbehaviors for the week and administer consequences but only "..after the discussions, consequences are administered, usually corporal punishment..."

Smith added "These meetings have been most effective in reinforcing both academic and behavioral expectations and helping students learn ways of managing conflict."


http://100blackmenofmemphis.org/prezmessage.html

 
 
prof.nw

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

February 14 2010, 7:59 PM 

Hi Americsan Way,

Sorry I for one don't buy it.

We have seen in my country a large number of self established organisations with lofty ideals and charismatic leaders laid low by the actuality of life in the institutions they so graciously sponsor.

If Memphis academy was falsely accused they , and particularly the 100 men would be the first ones to resort to the law.....they dont. They don't defend themselves by answering accusations. They just stay silent and, if you follow the press reports rely on state officials who are suspiciously always away from their desks when explanations are needed.

All the school puts on its website or rulebook as you have noted , about cp is the following ;(my emphasis)


Consequences For Violating the Honor Code
Consequences may include parental contact, a time out period, a verbal reprimand or warning, before school, after school, or lunch detention, work details, corporal punishment Mr. Wood, in-school suspension, out-of-school suspension, and/or expulsion. Serious violations may also include the involvement of local law enforcement agencies. Also, violators must appear before MAHS Honor Court and/or Governing Board.


Under discipline and conduct nothing is mentioned. Thats neither truthful nor transparent.

~I'm confused as to what you are saying . Are you saying that the abuse documented doesnt happen? Are you saying the complaining kids and parents are lying?

Because ,surely , would you not call the public administration of 15 swats or 10 strokes on the hand abuse if it happened in any other school?

I've called it . If it happens it is abuse. I hope it doesnt ....but.... Until the school explains itself and denies these events ( which to my knowledge it has not done), and allowed independent inspection they stand as allegations. allegations which if proven are serious abuse and cast a slur on the many many good teachers in the South who operate reasonable cp policies.

I said right at the beginning of my comments on the South that it needed to wake up and smell the coffee, and operate moderate well run cp or lose the battle.

I still believe that.

Do You?





 
 
American Way

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

February 14 2010, 8:52 PM 

I've said I school responds to a parents allegation by name or incident the childs behavior becomes the business of the media. The letter sent made a general defense (sounded like it was written by a lawyer but can you blame them?) and they invited just parents to a meeting so they probably didn't want to air their dirty laundry. My take there was some anecdotal abuses but not as out of line as the allegations but the "chapel experience" mirrors the Chamberlain Military School MS (Corpun) boot camp mentality much to our mutual disgust. That Military Academy remind me of my Catholic school I nickname Our Lady of Corporal Punishment happy.gif Both schools had inside amateurs write their handbook that were probably unware that they would be the highlight of Corpun. I don't think they were being slick but just didn't know how to write a handbook.

If that's what the parents feel best for their children and the abuses don't reach the level of warranting a criminal indictment (bar set low as they say you can indict a ham sandwich happy.gif then maybe we should be focusing on the good and not the wood. happy.gif I notice with every exchange we grower closer to shedding light and not generating heat. You're a good man Charlie Brown like 500 that support the school. happy.gif From online evaluations their academic excellence both for Hanley elementary school and the middle school projects are dismal despite overwhelming parental approval in comparisons to TN. North Memphis scores poorly so maybe we should focus on the "hood" and not the wood and give them the benefit of doubt within reason. Our differences prof n are reasonable as I'm sure are TWP. Point by point I choose not to defend them as they choose not to do with the media what they do.

http://houstonrh7.deviantart.com/art/The-Porch-73193841?moodonly=69

 
 

Bob T

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

February 15 2010, 12:14 AM 

The Memphis school dist. has always had a bad reputation for excessive cp. There have been newspaper articles for years. It seems every year there are more accusations and instances of abuse.

The very idea of 10-15 swats with a wood paddle is frightening. I will always remember the first paddling my older brother got in 6th grade. He got 6 swats and his bottom wasn't black and blue. It was black. with blood blisters all over it. The entire school heard it take place in the hall. We never did find out what exactly his "crime" was. Only that he made the teacher/principal angry.

 
 
American Way

Memphis School Corporal Punishment

February 15 2010, 2:26 AM 

Step down from the pulpit and get the facts. You don't like it when someone judges you from afar so why are you doing it here? Disgruntled parents have not changed people's mind about the school so maybe they shouldn't be beaten up on them. I'm sure the deplorable chapel experience continues but IMHO it's not the Dante circle it's played up to be. prof n where are your $2000 suit lawyers. They can't convince a simple jury majority with a preponderance of evidence never mind a criminal indictment.

This discussion can become like so you're for 15 swats but it's not that at all. Have the parents been told in the course of a full year to not to say anything bad about the school? Now if this one and only charter school is totally autonomous with policies why now at this time are they flying under Paula's radar (as they were not trying to do in their handbook IMHO) has everyone cast a deaf ear and a blind eye to the disgruntled parents but members of this estimable Forum? The school has credibility and they are following their lawyers advice and saying to the opposition shut up or lawyer up. Of course Paula may not have deep enough pockets. Has anyone taken time and see the good things going on their website? I noticed Paula's gang had a demonstration there that fizzled (TWP) and yours truly found out. It made for bad photo op for the anti-CP zealits so you don't hear to much about that do you? Of course it was raining that day. Maybe of it was just drizzling it wouldn't be have fizzled.

Shelby County has their act together as do the overwelming majority of schools from a cursory glance of Corpun and the citizens of Memphis after a long fight have kept CP out by a slim majority since 2004. The past abuses being laid on the city comes down to sins of the fathers being revisited. You can do that a lot in the South but much too often to this Northern boy's liking.

The MCS school board reviewed the policy several times over many years before deciding in 2004 to stop corporal punishment. However, paddling is still an accepted practice in the Shelby County Schools and some local charter schools. SCS Student Handbook 29 2008-2009

CORPORAL PUNISHMENT
As part of a progressive discipline plan, corporal punishment is permissible in Shelby County Schools.
Corporal punishment may be administered by the principal or principal's designee in the presence of another professional employee. Corporal punishment shall not be used as the disciplinary action on a first offense, shall not be used as a choice in lieu

of other disciplinary action, and shall only be used after other corrective measures have been attempted. The parent(s) or guardian(s) shall be notified when a student has been paddled.
If parent(s) or guardian(s) object to the use of corporal punishment with their children or wards, such objection must be made annually, in advance, in writing to the principal of the school. A student whose parent(s) or guardian(s) shall object in writing to the use of corporal punishment, when, and if it is deemed necessary by the principal, may be suspended.
A record of each case where corporal punishment is administered shall be maintained in the principal's office. (Disciplinary Referral Form #03-83-011 PS) (Policy #6208)

 
 
American Way

Memphis Metamorphis

February 15 2010, 3:11 AM 

Just a postcript. I brought this Memphis situation to this estimable Forum's attention and scathingly criticized it and said Paula should focus her attention there. TWP didn't jump on the judgment bandwagon even before Paula treated one of her own in such a despicable manner. For argumentation sake there are some here that proportionalize caning vs. paddling in a manner that six of the best would make that paddling sound like a cake walk. Read prof n excellent posting having experienced both.

The first thing I would ask the parent would be did you take the kid to a doctor. Let's say they did. They bring the child into an emergency room and a professional clinician asks who did it? And they say the school. OK. And then moments later another child is brought into the emergency with similar bruises and a professional clinician says who did it. And they say Joe Shmoe. And they say cuff him. Pass this my again. You have experienced teachers with the degrees out their gazoos watching children being brutalized? One of the members of this estimable Forum gave a most reasonable defense of the school about the desperate options the parents have to choose from. I lauded the poster for his well thought out psotion but said I simply disagee. I still deplore their methods but since reading his posts I've backed off not only in my stridency of opposition but backed off and seen a clearer picture having been enlightened as always by astute members of our Happy Circle.


 
 
prof.n

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

February 15 2010, 9:16 AM 

Hi American Way,

Seems to me we are in danger of replaying Garvey and du Bois. Naturally I prefer the Harvard man, sociologist , criminologist; more importantly he saw teaching as a calling.

A teachers first duty is to never do harm . If you want a reason why I am so tenacious on this one the heart of the matter is here. The 100 'good' men are not teachers : they do not have this obligation : their obligation to the community does not carry that weight!

I dont have a problem with corporal punishment per se, so lets not digress into general issues of Shelby County, lets stay focussed on the central issues.

1. Did these incidents happen?
2. Are these actions still continuing?
3. If they are ,and you do not see them as abusive, would you approve of them in the school your children attend?


(On this latter point , let the expert speak for themselves . this was the recent response of TWP to the issue:-

What is TWPs position on hand strapping as an alternative to buttock beating?

OMG! Are you serious.........

First, we have a hard enough time with the idea of mild to moderate swats on one of our kids rear ends. And how is that a beating anyway? A stinging sensation that only lasts a few minutes is NOT a beating but a back alley mugging is -Learn the difference!

As to hand strapping: That is HORRIBLE and Id fire a teacher on the spot for doing so. ..... The very idea of seriously injuring the hands which a student uses in his daily routineThe very idea of seriously injuring the hands which a student uses in his daily routine

If a teacher did that to my child, he would need someone to feed him for the next two months because BOTH arms would have multiple compound fractures!)



To descend into legalism - criminal culpability is really unwise for anyone with the merest knowledge of the history of criminology, let alone law enforcement in the South. Do you really think we are discussing an issue that could be decided by lawyers on either side or where the parents could walk into a law enforcement office and expect a fair hearing? After all whilst we may no longer see the blatant double standards of the past , to imply that a level playing field ....well look at Shelly Gaspersohn as she was white in front of a white jury, ad a white judge!!!

Schools must be transparent. This one isnt! Why did the Victorians in England place large glass windows into the inner corridors of schools in England? Why to ensure the architecture of transparency, and to throw light upon the unregulated domain of the schoolmasters and mistresses of previous eras.

What goes on in school is not for the local community alone , it is for the community at large to know and freely comment on. Only this way does abuse come to light. A community that for years has had the short straw on resources and facilities may welcome a new 'light' and not question some apparent 'difficult issues' that is where the communal social conscience has a role to play.

So yes, black Pride may have a different view of where you draw the line on abuse, so for that matter do extreme Christians and other sects, but we don't let them impose their ideas willy nilly.

And like Dr. du Bois, I believe this social conscience is essentially universalist, not the property of one community , for it is the latter which leads to ghetto law.



 
 
hcj

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

February 15 2010, 9:32 AM 

Bob T wrote: I will always remember the first paddling my older brother got in 6th grade.

Bob T (or others) please would you remind me what is the normal age of a student in 6th Grade?

 
 
hcj

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

February 15 2010, 9:57 AM 

OMG! Are you serious......... If a teacher did that to my child, he would need someone to feed him for the next two months because BOTH arms would have multiple compound fractures!

Prof nw, you quote this stating "Let the expert speak". This is not the writing of an expert, it is someone who is clearly over-emotional.

I too am uneasy about the disciplinary actions allegedly carried out in this place, but without clear first hand evidence, such as that given by Bob T in his post, I think it is unwise to start shouting "abuser". By all means state the limits you find acceptable and the aspects you don't, but please accept that the parents of students at the school may have a different opinion.

 
 
prof.n

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

February 15 2010, 10:57 AM 


Hi HCJ, Bob T

OMG! Are you serious......... If a teacher did that to my child, he would need someone to feed him for the next two months because BOTH arms would have multiple compound fractures!

Prof nw, you quote this stating "Let the expert speak". This is not the writing of an expert, it is someone who is clearly over-emotional.


As you will know Renee works as an AP in (Middle)High school and paddles in both sectors of the school. If you are familiar with her blog , she and the other Ladies are not generally emotional. I left this comment in the quote to show the strong emotion this can engender in an educator who actually in my view is on the side of the good guys, and certainly believes in a well disciplined school.

Bob T wrote

The very idea of 10-15 swats with a wood paddle is frightening. I will always remember the first paddling my older brother got in 6th grade. He got 6 swats and his bottom wasn't black and blue. It was black. with blood blisters all over it. The entire school heard it take place in the hall. We never did find out what exactly his "crime" was. Only that he made the teacher/principal angry.

This is exactly the point. As long ago as the 70's my friend Jackie was setting controls on how paddling had to be administered. TWP stand for the same moderation. I can vouch that the paddlings even when done in a regulated manner hurt significantly. I certainly didnt want a repeat of the ten swats I got ,indeed I was quite upset by them, even a bit tearful, as I probably deserved to be, BUT I wasn't badly bruised (even with a Spencer paddle ). I was told at the time, when she empathised with me after, that in her mind this was as hard as any paddling should ever be given

'If you do come to the States, Cat, you shouldn't ever get worse than that, certainly not in my school '.

Bob's brother was on only 6 .....and he did get much worse This shows the clear need for control regulation and transparency Of course the 70's was another country, even California had Ronald Regan as Governor! and to see schools exceeding that tariff today indicated at least to me , though I know not to AW, something worrying.

As to accusation versus proven fact , despite opportunity a plenty,to my knowledge the school has never denied the accusations. So parents have a dilemma. That this school has better results ( unsurprising with new buildings, better facilities, less control, and more cash) do you complain and get yur kid expelled, or sit tight and shut up and hope they dont get hit too bad....... and after all they are the good guys of your community in control.....aren't they?

So are you are stuck inside the academy with those Memphis Blues again ?

In the words of Dylan ' somebody better investigate soon'

 
 
American Way

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

February 15 2010, 12:58 PM 

hi hcj: My sentiments exactly!!! We've become bits of a feather at least on this matter. happy.gif

I too am uneasy about the disciplinary actions allegedly carried out in this place, but without clear first hand evidence, such as that given by Bob T in his post, I think it is unwise to start shouting "abuser". By all means state the limits you find acceptable and the aspects you don't, but please accept that the parents of students at the school may have a different opinion.

Can't prove it again but it is a reasonable surmise if that kind of brutality alleged was occuring the 500 successful black men (not ghetto than you catholic ghetto was as well) but a product of our times. I'm sure they have doctors, lawyers and businessmen among the greater 2010 Memphis area and before you ask why don't they send their kids there? Perhaps because they are living in safe neighborhoods with safe schools by which I don't mean as safe from CP. The school has a dismal academic record by Tennessee standards but I hope when they look in the mirror after four years they will see a better person because of a charter school that again looks great from the material they publish. A reasonable surmise again if everything they say is happening isn't happening someone would be calling them on it.

After three years parents of students who sent them there from 6th to 8th are helping them open a 9th grade. That speaks for itself. They don't sound like a cult who use CP in an unaccountable manner and ulike may bible belt bearing schools they don't have 500 men willing to put their name beside the school or a community of a larger and in some ways a more diverse circle (all Blacks don't think alike) that stand behind them.

prof n: get more familiar with hand punishment from the UK perspective (hand cane & tawse) and quite frankly Memphis. Members of this estimable forum I have never experience the paddle, the cane or the tawse at home growing up or at school. Help!! Please would some members of the estimable Forum to enlighten us (perhaps under another previous posred thread) or silence may be misconstrued as consent by prof n as he assumes in the case of theis Charter School that seems like they are fulfilling their mission.

For the record I have never once complained about the administration of corporal punishment by a thin 12 inch ruler being applied by amost any order of sister in the entire country on a routine basis. The only complaint I have heard from my generation is whether they were used for a trivial reason. Broken bats are more a concern (my wife being a softball coach) than a ruler going awry. For the record dear readers of this estimable Forum the UK has far more experience with hand punishment than the girls at TWP and may I venture to say prof n. and it ill becomes you to pontificate.

And that goes as well for TWP (pontificating about hand punishment) although their paddling usage is serving their schools well and is informing the general public that teachers are not monsters who use CP. Anyone who reads their website can only grow in respect more and more in them through the months. Keep up the good work girls both as teachers and educators of those who read here. And for the record I sincerely hopr the physical brutality didn't occur there or this discussion would be mute.


 
 

Bob T

Bob T (or others) please would you remind me what is the normal age of a student in 6th Gr

February 15 2010, 8:28 PM 

The normal age for a 6th grader is 11-12 years old depending what month you were born. Anyone defending a punishment of 10-15 swats with a school paddle is either heartless or has never experienced it themselves. I have seen 11-12 year olds crying after only 2 swats. Then add the command that you stay in position for all 10-15 swats or be suspended until you can get through the entire punishment. I took that to mean that if after taking 10 or more swats you can't take any more, you would then be suspended until you could come back and take the entire punishment over again. This is exactly the same rule imposed by the Sadist who was Commandant at the military school I attended.

Only a sadist would employ a rule like that.

 
 

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

February 15 2010, 8:32 PM 

Hi American Way

You say,


Prof n: get more familiar with hand punishment from the UK perspective (hand cane & tawse)

and

I have never experience the paddle, the cane or the tawse at home growing up or at school.


I have experienced all three, and the tawse ( six of the best on the hands- not 10)in my mind is both cruel and unusual see my posting. Moreover I saw a young girl destroyed by this process. Emotionally one of the hardest threads I ever wrote - wonder why I bothered, when it can be glibly dismissed by those with no first hand knowledge. .

http://www.network54.com/Forum/198833/thread/1256939599/last-1257157320/Contolled+power-


So I'm sorry AW but I won't take lessons or homilies on hand punishment off you.

 
 
prof.n

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

February 15 2010, 11:57 PM 


Hi American Way

You have just posted the following under the controlled power thread :



Re: Contolled power?
February 15 2010, 9:23 PM

prof n I am well aware of the paddling and caning (how may times have I referred to it) you received I was referring to others of this estimable Forum.


Will you now do me the favour of actually READING the lead thread which refers to my receiving six strokes of the tawse in what some would consider , certainly by today's standards an abusive situation at primary school. Without doubt , however, it was less abusive than the ten strokes reported administered to girls and never to my knowledge denied by the Memphis Academy

You have as you admit no knowledge of the power or otherwise of such a punishment on the hands, and frankly I very much doubt you would allow any of your family to suffer it.Please read the small section copied below


I realised this could only make matters worse, so gingerly I stepped forward . I'll go first , I said.( Believe me it wasn't heroism)...... She never even acknowledged the offer, pulled my hand out, flattening it in the process,and , taking her belt by the very end of the handle placed the tails fully across my hand , fingers to wrist raised it back over her shoulder, and ...the most terrible pain flashed and seared across the whole length of my proffered palm, The rest you can imagine. When it came to changing hands, I couldn't do it properly ( the idea of voluntarily putting out an unpunished hand to be beaten as the other has been ..) and so she just shouted and threatened : that frightened me more.....Suffice to say I was in pieces, and when ...eventually ...it ended I didn't know what to do or how to ease my plight. ,

Trish had to come forward, it must have been ten times worse for her , having seen my punishment. What's more she was about half my body weight and much shorter. She screamed, withdrew her hand and cried but to no avail. .Miss C just grabbed her hand by the wrist and continued strapping.

When she had finished we were both sobbing uncontrollably.. she appeared to have no compassion at all, not even giving us a tissue abut ordering us both back to class.

We both made for the wash rooms, and instinctively , though it didn't help much, put our palms under cold water. As we slowly recovered normality, we became aware of raised voices.......Miss C and Mr. M were having a very public row outside her office, the import of which was difficult to grasp, but we heard our names bandied on more than one occasion.. Mr. M saw us and broke off . He took us to an empty classroom, and said to stay there. He would return.....more raised voices, now in her office......

He left us for perhaps another quarter of an hour. When he returned the atmosphere was , well , difficult. Trish seemed to have lost all trust in anyone and just kept hold of me ............

I couldn't tell you what my feelings were at that moment , I don't think I had any. Trish by now was cowering and whimpering if anyone other than I made a move toward her. Eventually, it seemed like an age, the final bell went.



Trish, the girl punished with me was 10/11 years old . One year younger than those you would support being strapped at Memphis. They get 10, She got 6.

Would you let a 11 year old daughter of yours be treated like that?

 
 
American Way

Sometimes you have to choose your battles

February 16 2010, 12:30 AM 

It's a question of who you believe. If my family was accustomed to moderate CP (that the school asserts they use) in close quarter livings so accustomed to public CP I would have no problem and if the burden of having to wait was placed on everybody that wouldn't bother me either as obviously waiting seems to bother you. If I was worrying about my son being killed or incarcerated and my daughter getting pregnant I would be on the waiting list to getting in to that school from what their publications show it seems like you have a better chance.

I wait until something smells right before I even open my mouth never mind swallow. prof n let's stay agreeable and look for common ground or we can go on and on and on and on and on and on and on. I lean toward the school because I can smell Paula Flowe from a mile away. Paula isn't necessarily wrong but the fact that the school is not talking shouldn't mean people should draw nefarious conclusion nor to the other extreme as well. Until the facts are known I stay in full agreement with hcj and that's been TWP position (not necessarily in this sitiation) but they are loathe to dismiss the teachers perhaps because of encounters with parents. Maybe it's time to move on and prof n don't take that to be surrender nor the school not defending itself a concession. Sometimes you have to choose your battles.

 
 
prof.n

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

February 16 2010, 4:04 PM 

Hi American Way

I agree with you . We will never agree on Memphis.......So here's my last post on it for now.

You wrote:-

McRostie had a tawse for primary school age students I believe they may be using in Memphis

I wondered if you could enlighten us where that information emanated from? The school is so secretive about its processes ; as I have said transparency is vital for effective educational administration.

I did speak to McRostie's today ( they still produce belts for non punishment purposes), and they denied having produced or sold any such belts since abolition in 1982. So any mcRostie strap will have been bought off the 'speialist ' market for collectors, which makes me a little uncomfortable to say the least. The most likely strap for use would be a Glasgow corporation strap, which was issued widely to teachers and represents almost the entirety of the market. This is no toy or soft option, and going back to the Glasgow regulations no more than six with the strap wasa ever authorised , even for children up to the age of 16.Memphis give 11 year old girls 10 strokes.

You also wrote ;

Lastly let's here from those who have been hand punished. I have from my catholic schooling a benign take on hand punishment.

I have been so punished and did not find it benign, then it was a h grade three tailed tawse, and as I have written the girl with me found it even less so. But putting that to one side , Catholic Schooling is not known for its benign hand punishments. In my sixth form ( grade 12) days I was the chairman of our local sixth form association . i visited all the schools in the area , but recall the most frightening as the 'Brothers' school for boys. I went there with my female co -chair , and on arrival we saw a boy of about 14 being disciplined by a brother with a strap on his hands. He was beaten to the floor and left in tears. This in full public view. The school now is a public housing estate and good riddance.

My co- chair could not get out quick enough , she was shaking. Benign , yes the ruler on the palm is , but not all hand punishments follow that course.

All I will say to conclude on Memphis is this :-

They still perform to substandard compared to state and city averages. See the link below :

http://www.city-data.com/school/memphis-academy-of-health-sciences-tn.html

They stand silent in the face of ACCUSATIONS that ;

They strap girls in public 10 strokes, and girls refusing the punishment , or unable to take it are excluded until such time as they do complete the punishment. The withdrawal of hands during punishment leads to the punishment starting friom scratch .

They paddle boys and girls. some boys have received 15 licks in public plus being given a wedgie. Many receive more than one punishment for the same offence.

They run weekly punishment assemblies where all students have to watch The original news report stated :-

The girls to be whipped await their turn while the audience watches in anticipation. As he swings his belt, Mr. Weathers counts off 10 strokes. If the victim, out of fear or pain, retracts her hand, the count starts over again. If she cannot make it through ten strokes, she is suspended and must try again the following Friday. She is not allowed to resume classes until she successfully completes the hand-beating ritual. The psychological effects on a child undergoing such an experience -- or witnessing it -- can only be guessed, and the high risk to the delicate anatomy of the hand cannot be over-stated

The girls to be whipped await their turn while the audience watches in anticipation. As he swings his belt, Mr. Weathers counts off 10 strokes. If the victim, out of fear or pain, retracts her hand, the count starts over again. If she cannot make it through ten strokes, she is suspended and must try again the following Friday. She is not allowed to resume classes until she successfully completes the hand-beating ritual. The psychological effects on a child undergoing such an experience -- or witnessing it -- can only be guessed, and the high risk to the delicate anatomy of the hand cannot be over-stated.


The school has denied none of this .

What has it admitted ? It has ADMITTED the assemblies take place and public punishment occurs. The Principal speaks :

As for as paddling students in front of the student body, he said, "We use that so the rest of the students that witness that, it's a deterrent for them not to behave in the same way."


Thats where we stand.

Whether you see it as abuse or not , it is a long way from those 5/6 swat paddlings in private with appeals etc. you promoted in your handbook AW.

I can't however support that , and I condemn any school which refuses to talk openly when questioned about its punishment policies. Silence may not be guilt , but transparency is truth!

As I've said hundreds of times before the South needs to smell the coffee. well organised , moderate cp is a fine method of discipline. But it must not be autocratic, public or excessive.

 
 

double take

February 16 2010, 6:42 PM 


For some reason the copy of the complaints agaist Memphis academy went wrong, and the same paragraph was posted twice. Here is the missing paragraph!

The paddling of boys, done by Mr. Weathers, has a few added features. He first looks down into the boy's pants to be sure he hasn't padded his seat with extra clothing. Anything that might cushion the blows is removed. Then, he typically grabs the waistband or belt of the boy's pants and jerks him into position for the paddling. This upward hoisting of the garment, causes child's genitals to be jambed against the body. This is a form of sexual bullying commonly referred to in youth culture jargon as a "wedgie." The effect of a "wedgie" on a male's genitals is similar to that of being grabbed. When the student is in position, Mr. Weathers whacks him repeatedly with the paddle. Mr. Weathers has two paddles which he has affectionately dubbed, "The Terminator" and "Mr. Wood."

Reasons for paddling are vague and varied. The most trivial breach of rules, such as getting out of one's seat to pick up a pencil, chewing gum, being a few seconds late to class, or taking too long in the restroom, can result in a paddling. One child told me that the way he knows that he is due for a Friday paddling is when he sees his name on the list, and that he often doesn't have the faintest idea why he is being punished. Some children's names appear on the list week after week. The assumption of guilt is automatic. No exceptions. If one's name is on the list, one gets it.


I should in fairness make it clear that the statement for the school came from the President of the 100 men a Mr. Smith, and he is not apparently present at the assemblies.

 
 
Renee (TWP Editor)

MEMPHIS REVISITED

February 19 2010, 8:03 PM 

Hi y'all:

There has been some confusion as to TWP's position as to the discipline policy used by the school in our post "MEMPHIS MELTDOWN". The ONLY thing we knew and know is that paddlings are given at student assemblies and this led Paula Flowe to redeem her frequent flyer miles to protest in front of the school despite a TOTAL lack of support from the community. On this case, TWP believes 1) School c.p. at the secondary level is a poor choice for students of that age 2) School c.p. must NEVER occur in public view and 3) Must be Judicious, Moderate and Rare.

We at TWP do NOT believe the Memphis Academy of Health Sciences has met those conditions. Therefore, we do not, based on what we have seen/heard, endorse the schools discipline plan. But, we also feel that the plan can be changed while retaining a c.p. option. The best way to do this is internally through the PTA and/or school board of directors -Not through "grand standing" politicians at any level.

Regards,
Renee

 
 
American Way

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

February 19 2010, 9:11 PM 

Corporal punishment was frequently given in corridors in prof n days in Texas and without much formalities. I'm also a great believer that children should be out of hearing range as well. I'm not too convinced that the physical bruises that would be sustained would be a concern of so few parents in a full year since the incident. If it did occur let's hope that's behind them.

Terms like Mr Wood are slang befitting a family and not a school. The kids seem to come from a homogeneous grouping and have the cohesiveness of a family so in loco parentis is diferent than elsewhere. By all means society shouldn't cast a blind eye when children are physically abused nor would I think parents if they were convinced that the physical brutality was happening. There is no gag rule and they are extending the school to 9th grade.

Paula should keep her frequent flyer points to fly to warmer climes and enjoy some time in a bathing suit. happy.gif She has stayed in shape and more than acquits herself through the years. wink.gif Give credit where credit is due. prof n the south needs to get their act together and it doesn't seem this school does and on that we are in agreement.

 
 
prof.n

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

February 19 2010, 9:22 PM 


Hi Renee,

Can't disagree with your posting......just one question...in academies , is the governance as it is in the copycats over this side of the pond, where the instigators ( here the 100 men) nominate most of the board with little if any local accountability?

In any case in poor areas and depressed locales you dont find much participation or much self confidence in terms of standing up to an externally imposed agenda........not many 'tea parties; in that neighbourhood.

More questions ....not answers.....local democracy or dollar denominated democracy????

But don't worry, then over there I'd just be an ivy league intellectual, hopefully not getting my news from the Huffington Post or come to that the weather report.

best wishes

Nev.

 
 
American Way

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

February 19 2010, 9:30 PM 

So sorry meant akin. McRostie had a tawse for primary school age students I believe they may be using in Memphis

 
 

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

February 19 2010, 9:38 PM 


Hi American Way,

OK yes in my day the spankings were largely in the corridor, but luckily those like my friend regularised that! It was in those days only three , five exceptionally, any more - administration. But I admit even that wasn't perfect (Yes !!! I admit ! even she wasn't perfect!! She couldn't be , she thought your truely needed punishing more than once, and we all know he was perfect as a teenager! happy.gifhappy.gif But spare a thought for Shelly G ...............and some others!

But today, as the Ladies remind us ,we should be further forward I trust.

Anyway lets just say I get my news from The Onion OK!!!!happy.gifhappy.gif

 
 
American Way

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

February 19 2010, 11:17 PM 

prof n. The abuse of corporal punishment you have to sniff out to find. They are not readily available hence Paula's crusade. Memphis and the Delta region are cases in point. Corpun reveals a diversity in policy but there is a commonality developing. The fear of litigation means that the plaintiffs feel they will finding a willing ear. The south is one of the few areas in the world that the tradition lingers. If it is applied in the manner that common sense and TWP suggests it may hang around for awhile especially if young teachers learn to repect TWP as we do in spite of our many fiercely debated issues. Holes, brace, waits and silence from schools considered consent when advised by a lawyer not to defend yourself against scurrilous allegations. With the economy the way it is there are sales on Saville Row suits here so the lawyers may be able to ride out the resession. happy.gif Shakespeare wasn't right about all lawyers nor some of this estimable Forum are always right about coaches. happy.gif It depends on who you choose to share your entire life with. 90 degree paddle angles work unless you're playing tennis in mixed doubles against a laser sharp forehand passing shot down the alley.


 
 
prof.n

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

February 19 2010, 11:33 PM 

Hi American Way

Well I just realised Jackie may have regularly exceeded 90 degrees with me happy.gif happy.gif What and that brace and HOLES!!! sad.gif sad.gif

Where's my $2,000 dollar suit lawyer happy.gifhappy.gif

 
 
Renee (TWP Editor)

Governance of Memphis Academy

February 20 2010, 2:35 AM 

Hi y'all (again)

The Memphis Academy is an independent charter school with separate governance apart from the Memphis City School District. The parents IMHO do have more of a voice in how the academy is managed than a large multi-school district. (But I could be wrong on that.)

Anyway, TWP's next post will be published in a little while and will be worth the wait.

Best Wishes,
Renee

 
 

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

February 20 2010, 6:42 PM 


Hi Renee,

Thanks for the info. I have been able to trace now the governing board. All looks as I suspected Rich and non resident. No parents appear to be members.

But I promised not to continue this , so I won't. It is just that I believe that boards should represent their communities socially, economically, and politically as well as by ethnicity. But then I preferred Dr. du Bois.......but as he was a Harvard man I would.


Regards,

Nev

 
 

Bob T

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

February 20 2010, 11:34 PM 

I just read the "Renee's Halloween Paddling" and "Teacher-Student Reunion" posts on the TWP website.

I can say without any hesitation that the teachers who paddled me had no such feelings about it. Both accounts read like some made for TV movie where the parents are Robert Young and Barbara Billingsly. The teacher (Renee) is played by Donna Read and the boy in either case would be Jerry Mathers as the beaver.

Either things have changes dramically since I was in school or TWP is sugar coating the SCP issue . One thing I am sure has not changed is, teachers who don't like scp don't use it. I had teachers who maintained order in the class and never paddled anyone. Those who do use cp like it or they wouldn't do it.

 

For the record I got through 3rd grade without getting paddled and nobody else in my class got paddled that year. The teacher had one but never used it.

 


 
 
Renee (TWP Editor)

Need Feedback

February 26 2010, 2:48 AM 

Hello Everyone:

We at TWP need feedback from this Esteemed Forum. Bob T. compares me (Renee) to Donna Reed? HA HA HA
I had to look up that name to see who she is -No resemblance there!

But Bob gave us an idea:We at TWP (Jenny, Wendy, Michelle and I) will post the website addresses of t.v./movie stars that our spouses (and us)think we most look like. Of course,we cannot post the photos on our blog because of copyright laws but all of us agree that this idea might be fun.

Let us know what y'all think.

Best Wishes,
Renee

 
 
Community Member

Re: Need Feedback

March 1 2010, 7:17 PM 

Renee: Barbie Doll
Wendy: Barbie Doll
Jenny: Barbie Doll
Michelle: Barbie Doll

 
 
American Way

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

March 2 2010, 11:38 AM 

Bob T we have had our differences about whether CP should be used. The more I read your posts the more I find common ground. I'm in no ones amen corner. In spite of specific warnings and the danger of slinging projectiles I wouldn't want to go through life thinking that I was paddled for slinging a harmless rubber band. Their protestations will be their perceptions they will carry with them as part and parcel of their narratives not only to their parents and mates now but done the road. Miranda's paddling and the classroom teacher paddlings I would not object to because there is an aftermath. When one is called into a situation to paddle in another school (even on the same campus) and unilaterally change the penalty on the basis of physical observation is another matter. Bob T I hope you take some time and read TWP past blogs so you can follow what I'm about to write.

Amy will be glad she knew Rene prior to her expected paddling. But a five swat paddling proportioned by outrage is another matter. You end up seeing a girl you see flirting with your boyfriend who may have more than defended herself go scot free and you're nursing a sore bottom protesting I didn't mean to hurt her that bad given a choice of losing a basketball scholarship or bending over. Narratives are store in memories that like yours Bob T leave lasting impressions that shape views of CP. It may succeed in curbing bad behavior and by spreading the word that she paddles hard but that might not be a kids impression if there is no follow up by guidance from a staff member. You don't hug a child after you paddle but you should find some adult support like Miranda was given from the staff. I would never put myself in a the place of a designated hitter without a follow up with the principal. And I would never paddle at the behest of a principal that folows polices that you hear that he follows that you dind objectionable.

WP are on the front lines and there are no Monday mornings after a football game but accounts given by the aggrieved can be like watching vidos following the games.

 
 
American Way

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

March 2 2010, 9:37 PM 

Bob T: I think if you take a paddling as a given and it won't be overturn and I laud opponents who play by the rules and try through parent meetings and local school boards to ban CP. I can't say the same of the anti-CP zealots who short circuit the process like the Governor Ted Strickland in COLUMBUS far from the sites where CP is practice and through a budget bill passed a statewide ban on corporal punishment in schools. On the whole I think the girls are doing a good job coming up with the principles of the administration that go back to the 19th century (I linked previously). They are not reinventing the wheel. Sure it may be outmoded but democarcy should not be circumvented that IMHO is going on here.

Let's have an honest and open debate that involves as many people in the community as possible and let the cards fall where they may. I have linked century old CP policies with a different instrument of correction and different geography that provide duplicate advice. The girls are kind enough to give their policies and then it's fair game to discuss whether they should or should not paddle situationally. They share an incident and we ask questions and they enlighten us by giving more details and clarifications.

The south has been pegged as performing poorly in school for decades. Things are changing for the better and that can't be said in some northern areas where CP is not practice. Economic circumastances and family dynamics play a crucial role. It's hard to say definitively that their poor performance has to do with their support of their religious or right wing political persuasion that manifests itself in CP. It is true that if a school is to act in loco parentis than it is more likely that CP is practice on both sides.

It is as wrong to say that a Booneville graduate that was paddled on national television made the dean's list*** and credit that to the lesson she learned in the Principal's Office. Giving miscreants choices and allowing parental input makes CP more palatable to you but means nothing to the ant-CP zealots. Bob T: I find you way more reasonable than my fellow honorary member from the USA. You may be against CP but in the short term and in the limited geographical areas what policies do you think are best? On a lighter not it is always good to see the mutual repartee and jousting between you and the girls. They frequently quote you however low you may hold them. It adds a little pizzazz to TWP happy.gif

http://www.uafortsmith.edu/News/Index?skin=print&storyid=2639

 
 

Bob T

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

March 3 2010, 12:12 AM 

I am incredulous that you want Democracy for the SCP proponents when a teacher or principal who uses cp is acting not en loco parentis but as arresting officer, prosecutor, eye witness, judge, jury, and executioner. All without any Miranda rights or even a public defender for the accused. It was my experience that no matter what you said happened, if the teacher only saw you or your part of any infraction you were guilty. In fact any time a student is sent to the office it results in a paddling no matter what you might say in your own defense.

The only scp I don't object to is when a high school student is given a choice between swats and detention. This based on the student being given a choice. In most courts a defendant can choose to pay a fine, community service, etc. or jail. If you can't or won't pay you go to jail. Not so at most elementary and middle schools who use CP.

I would be interested to know what would happen to a student at TWP school if they refused cp. Would they be expelled until they complied? That was what they threatened when I was at school.

 
 
Renee (TWP Editor)

Fair Question/Fair Answer

March 3 2010, 4:07 AM 

Hello Bob T.:

Your question is a fair one and here is your answer:

A child at the elementary school is NOT given a choice between a paddling and out of school suspension. (There is no I.S.S. in elementary school.) If the child REFUSES to accept a paddling, then they are suspended: 3 days for original offense and 3 additional days for insubordination for a total of 6 days. When child returns to school, he/she is automatically placed on no paddle list and paddling is never again considered as an option -Suspension is the only option short of expulsion left. Also, that child is on probation for the rest of school year as if they had been suspended twice. This means any offense that would result in a "third" suspension means placement in the alternate school for the rest of the year.

As assistant middle school principal, one has to do something that could harm another student or serious misconduct in I.S.S. before O.S.S./PADDLING is considered with parental consultation.

The high school has the typical "choice-option" between I.S.S. AND PADDLING. (I do not favor this approach but hey -I'm not the Superintendent!)

I'm sure you will disagree with this but here goes.

The paddling we give at the elementary school are NOT brutal at all -Just an initial sting and some moderate discomfort. The tears are 90% fear and shame.Hey, ten minutes later, the kids I paddled acted like nothing ever happened. Some "beating", huh?

But I have never heard or seen an elementary student refusing a paddling.

All the best,
Renee

 
 
American Way

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

March 3 2010, 7:54 AM 

Bob T: When the kids are very small from what I can gather they are given a swat on the bottom. Like a parent would if child was misbehaving in line at the supermaket I THINK. I'm glad we're on the same page on the high school level. That analogy with public service was an excellent one. Choices should be given at that age level that involves informed consent. Rules need to be spelled out clearly and the student has a right to appeal by an effort to exonerate or to ameliorote due to circunstances. Principals like judges should have the ultimate say but should intervene rarely or why have laws on the book or rules in the student code of conduct. If it is in loco panentis the parent should know the special conditions (their conscience as perhaps non-violence sonscientious objector) or special needs of the student. Guidance staff should know what's going on to the extent they can gather on their own ir are informed. a death in the family or your mother just placed a restraining order against your father or things like that matter. long and short just like the juvenile courts are more lenient than courts high schools should be even more lenient. It's a fine balance. You are preparing a child for the real world so the real world where there are violations and disciplinary actions.

Bob T have you seen the Nancy paddling what do you think of that? I know states differ witin their own states do to community standards reflecting family values. IL as you know was an example but we have the autonomy of states and states ofetn fither delagate the closer to the coominity. Ingraham vs Wright started in Dade County that doesn't now by county vote permit it while others do. To characterize those counties to act less American is what I have a problem with. Some of those area would never vote for Obama but if they act within the Constitution I have no problem. The Supreme Court has a say that matters as it is with abortion. It's great to go beyond the for or against and get into the matter of how while it is permitted. While it is being used TWP is providing a service that they see is of value to their colleagues in ares that allow paddling. They're not advoacting reinstituting CP but are trying to let all people know that they are not the kind of people that aula Flowe would like everyone to believe. What age should CP stop? What are resonable expectations teachers should place on students?

At least that is what I like to do when anyone makes an effort to share honestly and openly. TWP doesn't suffer fools (Paula Flowe) gladly and I think we all havethat in common. Let's be honest and open. I think Bob T and TWP you're doing that though like TWP (Sharon in AZ) we've all been burnt before. sad.gif Let's sling rubber bands at each other and not bombs. happy.gif Or never give Nancy more than five. happy.gif I welcome that kind of debate that gets into the nitty gritty. There are many forums that argue pros and cons and that's fine. Life is too short to waste time with anything less than being honest and open.


 
 
American Way

Need Feedback?

March 3 2010, 10:36 PM 

To Renee Wendy Michelle Jenny TWP With Affection American Way. Teachers have a sense of humor. I hope. Which one of you looks like Contestant No 1 or Contestant No. 2?

Contestant No. 1

Contestant No. 2



 
 
Renee (TWP Editor)

Re: Need Feedback?

March 4 2010, 2:27 AM 

Hello American Way:

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HAHA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA

As to "contestant #1", how OLD do you think we are? I'm turning 30 and the others are all younger than me!

"Contestant #2" is a LOT closer but none of us have anything like the outfit she's wearing.

TWP may not do the "What we look like" segment...Too many WEIRD email messages already!

Best Wishes,
Renee

 
 

Bob T

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

March 13 2010, 8:14 PM 

I think your policy needs some re-interpretation. What your policy really says is... either you let us beat you with a piece of wood or we will ruin your life. And all over a minor infraction such as chewing gum or shooting a rubber band.

When I say "ruin your life" I mean there are many things left unsaid in your policy. First, the 6 day suspension will fall "allegedly" during a critical point in the school year so he/she will get an F or Incomplete and will have to be held back and repeat that grade. And I am sure you have some other tricks up your sleeve to force the kid to submit to the abuse.

But it is no longer about chewing gum or shooting a rubber band. It is about not setting a precedent that would surely be followed by other students. So you have to ruin the kids life or you risk losing the ability to beat our kids with a piece of wood for any reason you see fit.


The irony is the kid is smart enough to know he/she doesn't have to submit to your abuse so you have to crush him/her and in so doing you punish them for being too smart.

Of course there is a life lesson to be learned I guess. Such as "the people with the guns (or paddles) get to make the rules". And absolute power corrupts absolutely. What it really boils down to is "I am a lot bigger than you so I can do whatever I want and there is nothing you can do about it". But I would hope that such harsh lessons would come later in life. Not at ages 5-12.

 
 
Renee (TWP Editor)

sILLY rANT

March 13 2010, 9:11 PM 

Bob T. :

Get over yourself!

First, a paddling is NOT a "beating" because I will never allow that. (The coaches complain to me that I'm too restrictive as the witness -Which I insist on doing when boys have been paddled at the middle school.)

Second, on rubber bands -I made it clear EARLY in the school year: No flipping with rubber bands WHATSOEVER. As to chewing gum, that is a "Detention" offense -Not a paddling offense. (Where did you get that silly idea, anyway?)

Third, the 6 day suspension rule applies to elementary students because c.p. alternatives such as I.S.S. and Detention does not exist at that level. Even then, we have the support of the parents in this because otherwise, they would have opted their kids out of c.p. to begin with. The point is that we do NOT nor have ever "forced" a paddling on any student.The offenses that have involved paddling at the elementary school were bullying, fighting, stealing and lying -Not minor offenses at all. "Real" life after 18 is much harsher than a few moderate swats with a lite paddle.

Finally, schools are NOT "micro-democracies" where students get to make the rules. Instead, all rules are made by elected school boards and administrators with some parental imput. In other words, ADULTS make the rules for the children -As been the case since the beginning of time.

Well, I'll get back to my "spring break" now.

Regards,
Renee

 
 

Bob T

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

March 14 2010, 8:00 AM 

I think you deliberately missed my point. But lets go back to the rubber band shooting. Kids have been having fun with rubber bands since they were invented. They are irresistable. 

I guess if I were a sadistic paddle mad school administrator I would make a rule against some irresistable activity like shooting rubber bands so I could use my paddle. My elementary school had a senseless rule against wearing hats. They knew every boy in that school played baseball and wore baseball caps. They would wait around until some poor kid forgot to take his hat off and they would yank that paddle out of the drawer and ruin that kids day. Of course we also had the timeless rubber band and chewing gum rules. Just more opportunity to use the paddle and rule through fear and intimidation. 

On the other hand if a kid were to walk up to another kid and deliberately shoot a rubber band in their eye or face then of course some punishment would be apropriate. But I would also want to know what was going on in that kids life to make him/her want to do something like that. Maybe things are really horrible at home. But how would you know if your answer is to paddle him/her?

Having lived through schools that paddle, I don't believe very much of what you say. I think you mostly pay lip service to opponents of scp so you can continue doing what you do.

I would love to see the results of some hidden cameras and microphones in these schools that use cp. How many kids get paddled because the teacher/coach/Principal has PMS that day? Or how many kids get paddled because the teacher/etc. only saw the tail end of something and picks the actual victim to get paddled when he/she was only defending themselves.

I will say this though. The one paddling I got for fighting is the one paddling I did not resent. Nor did I feel it or care at the time. I was so angry at the other kid for punching me in the face that I couldn't even feel the paddle. Just because they pulled us apart didn't mean the fight was over. By the time he got back with the paddle he had to pull me off of him again.


 
 
prof.n

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

March 14 2010, 6:52 PM 



Hi Renee,

You say :-

First, a paddling is NOT a "beating" because I will never allow that. (The coaches complain to me that I'm too restrictive as the witness -Which I insist on doing when boys have been paddled at the middle school.)

............... As to chewing gum, that is a "Detention" offense -Not a paddling offense. (Where did you get that silly idea, anyway?)



Pleased to see the coaches are now under control......years ago when I was contemplating my final year in the US High School; system, I was warned, if you get a pinkie (discipline slip for a paddling) then take it to administration , don't for heavens sake be paddled by a coach. Some were fair, but far too many thought it was practice for a baseball game. I'm glad to see you insist on 'fair play'!- and I'm sure your students are as well.

On the really (Non?)serious point however BUBBLE GUM!!!!Paddling is far too good , especially for the little twerp who invented the bubble gum flavored jelly beans!!!!!!
When last in Texas I bought a large box of the said product - assorted flavors. No one realized the pink ones were strawberry bubble gum, and we were all promptly sick when we tasted them. They may be OK for five year olds but should be prohibited as an adult product!!!!.

As the box was handed round to an assorted group of largely Southern Republican educationalists, there are a number of expert paddlers searching for the culprit right now!!!!

 
 

Bob T

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

March 15 2010, 1:04 AM 

First it's pretty easy to say a paddling is not a beating when you are not on the receiving end. Your opinion might change if you were the one bending over. Another not so amazing coincidence is the strongest supporters of cp in schools never got it themselves. It's pretty easy to say "go ahead, paddle the hell out of him/her" and walk away with no idea what it's like.

A common occurrence at schools that use cp is the "retro-active" rule breaking punishment. In other words there was no rule against something until after it happens and then it becomes a rule and you paddle the guy/girl who just did it before it was a rule because "they should have known better". That's another thing that bothers me. Kids don't have 30 years of life experience behind them to "know better". But teachers who like to paddle ignore that fact.

One more thing I need to address is this policy TWP have of making the kid sit out recess for the rest of the day. They say it's out of concern for the child when in actual fact I am sure the policy arose out of concern for your own selves. If a kid goes home with bruises pictures could wind up on the evening news or on the internet next to a picture of the teacher/principal or the school. We all know where it goes from there. A 30 day anti cp rehab center. Community service. A public apology. A civil suit. etc.,etc.,etc. Seriously though this could come straight out of "1984". Doublespeak at it's best. Conservatives seem to have it mastered. That and fear mongering.

This really should be my sig line because I think it bears repeating. "Teachers who don't like to paddle don't do it". I have had teachers who were opposed to scp and guess what? They never had to paddle anybody.


It really is a lot of fun for me to bait the TWP. But really my major complaint is that you don't give these kids any choice. You say it's not a democracy but I think if you gave every kid the choice between sitting out 3 days of recess or 3 swats the kid would take the swats almost every time and have no hard feelings about it afterward unless of course he feels wrongly accused or convicted.

 
 

Bob T

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

March 15 2010, 1:34 AM 

"on rubber bands -I made it clear EARLY in the school year: No flipping with rubber bands WHATSOEVER."


"Finally, schools are NOT "micro-democracies" where students get to make the rules. Instead, all rules are made by elected school boards and administrators with some parental imput"

These are contradicting statements. So you lied.


"The offenses that have involved paddling at the elementary school were bullying, fighting, stealing and >LYING< -Not minor offenses at all." <br>

All I can say is.... Renee, bend over.

 
 
rRenee (TWP Editor)

Bend over my ***

March 15 2010, 8:14 PM 

Hey Bob T.:

You sound like you have REAL problems!

Question: If we "like" paddling so much, why do we do it so rarely? If we wanted to, we could paddle a lot more.

Whats with "retroactive" punishment? Every time we have used the paddle, it was for serious rule violations.And the kids knew and understood what the rules were.

One last comment on rubber bands: I could have made distinctions between rubber bands and paper clips, for example -But chose not to. Why? Because teachers main job is teaching, not playing classroom "cop" or "detective".

Bob, I think your REAL problem is that you do not like "rules" or "authority figures". Just do yourselfa big favor and keep a respectful attitude the next time a state highway patrol officer pulls you over for speeding.

I am sure glad for my laptop computer -Never leave home w/o it!

Regards,
Renee

 
 
Renee (TWP Editor)

Bend Over, my *** II

March 16 2010, 2:35 AM 

Hey Bob T. :

The REAL reason we hold out our "kids" from recess after a paddling is because they MIGHT bruise easier if they had a tumble and fell on their rear end -Not because they are bruised from any paddle swats.

Question: Do you HONESTLY believe that 3 moderate swats from a little paddleball paddle on the seat of the pants is going to cause BRUISING? GET REAL!

And any "case" that comes up with pictures of bruises? A parent is going to be in SERIOUS TROUBLE because any bruising could only occur from a third party: The Parent(s).

Sick but there are "monster" parents out there who would BEAT their own children if they could win $$$$ in a lawsuit.

Our state is a "teacher shield law" state so my family's mortgage, college savings and bank account are safe.

As to taking a paddling, I (Renee) would have GLADLY taken 3 swats at school over my momma's strap. Momma didn't need to file a report for "Homestyle bun roasting" either.

Bob, I think YOU have some bending over to do!

Back to Spring Break for me.

Regards,
Renee

 
 

Bob T

No Joy in Mudville

March 19 2010, 3:52 AM 

As much as I would enjoy exacting a little retribution on a twp posterior it would never compare to what you put those little children through.

We seem to disagree on every aspect scp.

I believe the little ones should not be hit.  You think they should. You really are ruling through fear and intimidation.

I believe the 7-12 grades should be given a choice between swats and detention. I think it is a good choice. Give swats on Friday afternoon and they a free weekend (standing up). You think they should have to give up their free weekend. I am not saying you are entirely wrong on this. It is just not flexable enough to accommodate every situation. They could lose a job or they could lose a scholarship. Swats are effective and a few bruises are no big deal if you volunteer for them.

 

I admire and respect you for trying to eliminate abuse in the use of scp. You might actually succeed in your little 100 pupil school. However it does not overcome the fact that you should not be hitting our kids.It's like putting salt and pepper on a manure sandwich. You might improve the flavor but the whole thing still stinks. I don't think you or your fellow twp's are bad people or bad teachers. I just think you are wrong about paddling kids at school.

 

We could debate this endlessly. I have already done it with several members here. I don't believe I have ever lost one yet. But I don't think you really care if what you are doing is right or wrong.  I've noticed that you ignore my points that are irrefutable and then respond to something that has little bearing on the discussion. It seems to be a common trait among conservatives and religious people. I don't hold that against you. You are simply misguided.

I could go through point after point about why you should stop paddling but I think I should go through them one or two at a time so they get discarded so to speak.

First, I would like to address something that will hit close to home for one of your members.

In your post on TWP "Teachers Aftermath II" Jenny writes "Darren was a little skittish towards me for a few days". 

Let me be Darren for a moment. The next morning and every school day morning until the end of the year Darren's mom comes to wake him up and as soon as he wakes he realizes he has to go back to that place where he could be paddled for making a mistake. He knows he will make another mistake. Everyone makes them. So he dreads getting out of bed and he starts hating school. He wishes he could just quit.

Now Jenny did something that my teachers never did. She tried to reassure him that he was relatively safe. Yay Jenny! You go girl! But, was it enough? How do you know? I don't think you can ever completely make those feelings go away.

 

Just one more thing. My mother and our house was just like yours and most other kids whose parents used CP. It was the leather belt.  You (Renee) say you would rather take 3 swats with a paddle than your moms belt. Well, there is only one reason anybody would say that. And that would be because they never got any swats at school. Even that little paddle you use (which BTW is the exact same size my 4th grade teacher used. only hers was varnished) would do much more damage than any leather belt. I have had both growing up and I know that if I got a hard spanking with the belt it hurts for a few minutes and left welts on my bottom and legs. A few minutes later it didn't hurt any more and by morning the welts were gone. 3 swats at school from a wood paddle and it hurt for hours and every time I sat down for a couple of days.

I dare you (Renee) to take a paddling just like the ones you give for the most serious offenses and then tell me you would still take swats over your mothers belt. If so, somebody didn't have the courage to paddle you right.

I hope you're not giving swats for bad spelling. My spell checker seems to be broke.


 
 
American Way

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

March 19 2010, 5:56 AM 

Don't want to interject between you Bob T and TWP but I do think a 250 post celebration is in order.

Quite apart from the way the bold faced affair was handled would you say that a paddling such as this would seem to you to be brutal? The not holding back could mean with all her might and without jeans Nashia was punished by a factor of maybe three times more than Nancy.

For the record she is not for paddling high school students and having paddled just this one she has not changed her opinion in this regard. Renee explained her misestimating the size of the paddle.

Holding a rather heavy 20 x 4 x 1 double handled paddle, I informed Nashia that she would get 5 swats and to bend over with hands against the wall.

I then proceeded to deliver 5 hard swats to the thin looking dress slack covereded rear end of Nashia. And I did not hold back as I usually do and held the paddle with both hands -Nashia REALLY deserved this one!

SMACK SMACK SMACK SMACK SMACK

Even behind closed doors, anyone in the hallways outside the office would have heard it! And Nashia, the roughest girl in the school was reduced to tears and clutching her rear as she was sent back to her class.


 
 

Bob T

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

March 19 2010, 2:24 PM 

TWO HANDED SWATS??? Not even the sadistic Commandant at my military school gave two handed swats. And Renee says she doesn't want any bruises? This is a classic example why scp should be banned in our public schools. Never have I ever heard of anyone getting or giving two handed swats. And you probablt would have blamed the bruises on gold digging parents seeking a big pay day in court.

The sad part is you almost had me convinced you were sincere. You are the one who deserves the two handed paddling.

Renee, I think you may be better suited to a job at a Turkish Prison.  


 
 

Bob T

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

March 19 2010, 11:38 PM 

American Way; of course the paddling was brutal. However the difference between slacks and jeans is slight. If she had on panty hose or tights under the slacks that would make a big difference.  Tights etc. do not allow the buttocks to dissipate the energy of the impact. Imagine a drop of water falling into your cup of coffee/tea.  All of those rings spreading outward are dissipating the impact. The same thing happens to your bottom when hit with a board. Unless it can't because of the tights, panty hose, etc. Trust me I was told by a woman who knows that it hurts about twice as bad with panty hose on.  

Of course two handed swats as opposed to one handed swats could be considered twice as painful \brutal too.


 
 
Renee (TWP Editor)

Come on, y'all

March 20 2010, 3:38 AM 

Bob T. & American Way:

Come on, y'all...get serious!

First, on paddling vs. the strap: The small oval shaped paddle I used at the elementary school was made of light balsa wood and DOES NOT BRUISE! Same as for the 16" x 3 1/2" x 1/4" paddle. How do I know this? In a post in Spring 2009, I recounted the "experiment" in which I took 3 swats from my hubby with only silk pajamas between the paddle and my butt. Result: A little redness that was gone by morning. ALL paddle swats I have given have been on the seat area of blue jeans except for Nashia which I cannot exactly recall what she wore. But my momma's strappings? There was NO "protection" WHATSOEVER! And my little rear was sore for a few days! So, Bob T. -Don't lecture me about the difference between a MODERATE school paddling the way TWP does and a genuine old fashioned strapping as I know it.

As to Nashia's paddling: The thickness was a guessimate and was probably more like 3/4" (My bad)-But still a heavy paddle. The handle was thick but NOT baseball bat like. I held it with both hands BECAUSE of the size of the handle. (I have smallish hands) But Nashia's paddling was severe -I'll admit that. However, Amy's black eye (from Nashia) took a lot longer to heal than Nashia's butt. Heck, maybe I should have just called police instead. Of course, instead of graduating and a possible basketball scholarship, Nashia might have ended up with a juvenile rap sheet and dropped out of school altogether. Nashia's coach, the black lady teacher on leave, wholeheartedly agreed with what I did and added her own penalties for Nashia to workout before returning to the team. Last I hear, Nashia is set to graduate and does have a basketball scholarship.

Bob T., you have a right to your opinion as I do to mine. But it is the height of arrogance for you to assume you know more than you actually do -BECAUSE YOU DON'T. So do yourself a BIG favor and comment on what you actually DO know. As for TWP, we created our blog to give commentary, informed opinion and our REAL life experiences as REAL teachers in REAL classrooms.

Question: If we rule our classrooms on "fear", how come we are the most popular teachers in our school among the kids?

Jenny/Darren: Bob T., go back and re-read the account. Jenny told Darren that as long as he didn't intentionally injure another student, he did not have to worry about the paddle. (Darren did NOT just make a "mistake")The paddle was only used once by Jenny that year.

Finally, Bob T. -Don't make assumptions about my "politics" -It has no place in this ESTEEMED FORUM.

Gotta finish my Spring Break!

Regards,
Renee

 
 

Bob T

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

March 20 2010, 3:25 PM 

Renee; I think you are taking this all too personally. The law that allows you too use cp in your small school in S.E. MO. also allows other less reputable teachers and admins. use cp at their much larger schools where they are not as vigilant as you and your friends in your little 100 pupil school.

My point of view comes from my own personal experience growing up in schools that used cp. Some things may have changed a little since then but I know for a fact that there are still schools and school districts that use the paddle liberally in the classroom as a first resort. Not a last resort. The potential for abuse is enormous. Those schools are a magnet for people who enjoy swinging that paddle.

So how do we allow you to continue to use cp in your little school under your watchful eye and tell the bigger schools where abuse runs rampant they can't use cp? But it still all boils down to the fact that you can't teach kids not to hit by hitting them.

As I said before, we could debate this endlessly but I don't think you will want to. If you do, you eventually will see that I am right and you are wrong. I understand some of your concerns. They are legitimate. I read your post on TWP about suspensions and having to accept poor conduct as a result of losing the scp option. I think you are absolutely right. But that still doesn't making hitting the kids right.

I think our kids have a right to wake up in morning and not dread going to school because they might get whacked with a board that day.

 
 
American Way

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

March 20 2010, 4:01 PM 

The kind of reasoned dicourse that should take place in the local school boards. I do think teachers wrongly vent anger while using the paddle (an objection I have made clear in this thread) but I don't think anyone goes into the profession to paddle execept maybe a few sickos. As a principsl I would never make a child receive CP or make a parents sign on to it or make a teacher or administrator paddle against their will. I do think Renee should feel what she calls a severe paddling even though she would have preferred to be in Nashia shoes and not Amy's. Not as lenient behind close doors (never should have have been shared IMHO) or what Paula (the Paddle's Got To Go) Flowe would give Renee if she had her druthers. I'm causing trouble. What else is new? wink.gif Enjoy your vactaion. happy.gif

 
 
Renee (TWP Editor)

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

March 20 2010, 6:11 PM 

Bob T. :

I haven't a CLUE what you are getting at with "S.E. MO" but our location is not public info -Other than it is somewhere in the Southeastern U.S. As to pro vs. anti-c.p., we will just have to agree to disagree. On the surface, it would seem that our difference of opinion is just "cultural" but I think your perspective comes from bad personal experiences. Had you been one of our "kids", your perspective would be very different in my opinion. As to abusive c.p., we at TWP have condenmed such on many occasions.

Also: A correction (You don't have to bend over for this, Bob) on the elementary school size. The 4 of us at TWP averaged about 25 students each for a total of 100+/-. The entire school is about 300+.

Finishing my vacation!

Renee

 
 

Bob T

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

March 20 2010, 8:08 PM 

 OK, Renee I somehow got the impression from American Way that your school was in Missouri. My mistake. You may not be aware of this but this forum has several members who experienced abusive scp. I may be the only one from "the colonies" as they like to call us here.

 Most went to a school in London with a Headmaster who was extremely liberal in his use of scp to the point where he actually went to pupils homes and spanked them there with full approval of the parent(s). The forum was originally started and owned by Roger. I believe it is the same Roger of the now defunked "Paddled at School" forum. He was looking for stories of the good ole down home butt roastin' variety but the forum went in a different direction so he gave it to Big John and it became more of a haven for those who were abused and people interested in the research aspect.

The membership used to be fairly well balanced on the use of scp. Now it seems to be leaning a little in your favor. I think there are still a few of us who still oppose it so you will find plenty of opposition if you are willing to listen.

 

I still think you are wrong and I don't believe your paddles are made of Balsa wood.  When I was in school the teachers in K through 2 used Ping Pong paddles. The 3rd grade had one like you describe at about 16" long X 3" wide and about 1/4 inch thick.

My abusive 5th and 6th grade teacher had a piece of Oak that he picked up off the ground at a saw mill. It was about 3" wide X 24" long and about 1inch thick. It was slightly tapered at one end and still had the rough ridges from the saw mill all along the face. Since it was Oak, it was heavier than most wood that size. 

The Principal (another abusive Bastard) had what can only be described as a Frat Paddle with white adhesive tape wrapped around the business end. He never gave less than 5 full force swats and almost always gave 6. A paddling from him left my brother bruised and blood blisters for 2 weeks.

How would you like to wake up knowing you had to go to that school every day?   


 
 

Bob T

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

March 20 2010, 9:22 PM 

I almost forgot to address the issue of your little "experiment". Three little love tap from a guy who loves you and doesn't want to sleep on the couch doesn't qualify as a school paddling. LOL!!! Nice try though. I guess if I got to choose who would be giving me swats at school I would choose a kid from 1st grade.

I think you need to try 5 swats bending over, knees straight, touching toes from the female coach or gym teacher. Unless of course you sign her pay checks then all bets are off. Really it needs to be somebody not afraid to let you have it the way you give swats. What you need to feel is that secondary "burn" that comes after the first sting from paddle swats.  You will know exactly what I mean if you ever feel it.

Also, what a gutless coward you are!  You can dish it out but you can't take it. You got your husband to do it! That takes the cake. I just have to laugh at you. And that includes your 3 cohorts over at TWP.

BTW, congrats on only paddling 7 pupils last year. I assume that was just the 4 of you. Not the whole school of 300+. You are 3% below the national average and that usually doesn't include those two swat in class paddlings that take place in places like AR and TX. So you really did do well. Zero would be a nice number too. 


 
 

Bob T

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

March 20 2010, 9:47 PM 

I almost forgot! Lets go into the real reason Renee "earned" herself a paddling.  I already tried to address this once but Renee tried to gloss over it. In an earlier post Renee said " "I" made it clear about the rubber bands. Later in that same post she said " that (all) rules are made by the school board".

If we had Renee on the wittness stand her entire testimony would now be suspect. In other words, "she lied".

Now later in that same post she listed "lying" as a paddling offense. Now we have written documentation of her offense. There is no doubt of her guilt. We already know what the penalty is, she assigned that herself. SWATS!

I say what is good for the goose is good for the gander.

 

BTW, you were absolutely right about me. I hate authority figures. I think it has something to do with the ones I had growing up. 


 
 
prof.n

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

March 20 2010, 10:01 PM 



Hi Bob T, Renee,

Look I don't particularly want to play referee , let alone Monday morning quarterback, but someone has to try to find fact somewhere in this discussion.

I recognise there are cases of abuse, and a s a foreigner I don't want to rake up old issues, but we have all read the headline cases from Shelly Gaspersohn to Amber Pages, and a hell of a lot of less well known guys between them. Yet to conclude from reading your respective postings there are not two Americas I as I was aware, North and South of the Mason- Dixon ; but two within the South . One stressing the long term values of motherhood. Apple pie and occasional swats : one a dark place where children are scared of going to school because of the risk their backsides may be black and blue when they return at evening.

Now I have visited the US regularly over the last 20 years, and I've a large number of friends there. I've visited schools colleges and Universities. I've met a number of Principals and other administrators as well as classroom teachers, and whilst corporal punishment does occur in the conversation, and yes, there is an element of protecting a 'Southern institution', it is a small part of the general discussion which concentrates far more on international standardization, assessment, grading , curriculum.......and so on.

I've also met a number of students , not randomly selected I grant you , including on my last visit one 15 year old girl who had just been paddled by 'administration' for tardy offenses. I don't know the details it would have seemed impolite to inquire, but she was not unhappy with life and neither scared of the V.P who had just done the deed, nor apparently upset.

Now one swallow doesn't make a summer, but I think we can see two very different sides of the debate, just as you could see it in England in the 70's/80's.I have no doubt both are true and different views of the issue. In England certain schools had 'reputations' for excessive and otherwise abusive cp ; some like mine, used it in a pretty sparing way and had general support for their actions, which were by and large, moderate and consensual .I think there may be an element of this in the States. Most of the schools that I have seen are , I would judge, largely suburban and rural , fairly affluent and largely middle class. A few are in agrarian areas, and small town type establishments. I haven't done much visiting in the inner cities,with the exception of New York, for the simple reason that my contacts, especially in the South ,are largely white and middle class .

I suspect , but this is just surmise that there are some schools where paddling works and some where it doesn't. Those where it does may have close parental and community links with the school, and maybe have fairly assertive parents, who will 'blow the whistle' on abuse. Abuse certainly can occur where paddling isn't properly regulated,

Now from Bobs background of abusive paddling I can well understand his abhorrence. On the other hand from Renee's in a carefully regulated and and moderate use facility I can see her point regarding deterrence.

I've got to ask Renee , Did you really mean 'balsa wood' ? The balsa we have on sale in England is so 'soft' as to probably prohibit it making any kind of bat , as most is graded for children's model making etc. With lightness of texture , and wind resistance we wouldn't even get a usable bat, but yours may be different grade. The paddle I was spanked with was oak , it was said 'Arkansas black oak' but that could have just been a rock and roll joke at the time. (If you don't understand that play the soundtrack from Dazed and Confused , volume 2- or watch the fate of O'Banion on the film!). I've said elsewhere I didn't find my paddling abusive, although admittedly I chose the penalty, and it was administered within a very tight framework, It did the job ( I probably deserved it !), and hurt significantly for an hour and a bit for about the next 24 hours. There was no significant bruising. (Again I've written about the fit between that and twp's approach elsewhere.).Of course as a Brit I didn't know what to expect.

So what it comes down to is we have both abusive and non abusive paddling. Should , because of the abusive situations we abolish all recourse to cp? I can see the argument, but personally I would prefer to see the South regulate and mange the process better.

Why? Well purely because I have seen British schools abandon corporal punishment and in my view classroom management has not improved as a consequence .Of course there are some good schools , but overall I don't assess the change as positive, although I also recognize that we will never revert to reintroduction for a whole panoply of reasons. I would hate the South to make the same mistakes as us, and abolish without adequate preparation, which was our great fault.. CP probably isn't essential, but it is a tool that works for some students , in some situations.But abuse no way.


Bob you are entitled to your position , I understand it ; I just don't agree. There are lots of issues in this to debate so lets do that and leave personality and politics to one side ? I honestly don't think Renee would make a very effective prison guard, certainly not with a balsa paddle! Oh and as for my politics , well my close friends say I'm a conservative liberal.....and I wouldn't like to attempt translate that in US terms...........republican. Democrat or tea party? ?? Maybe I'd better stay my side of the pond!

 
 

Bob T

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

March 20 2010, 10:02 PM 

Here is a link to a picture of a Paddle Ball Paddle. It doesn't look like balsa wood to me.

http://primghar.com/jokari/


 
 
American Way

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

March 20 2010, 11:03 PM 

Bob T: You're ideas are so welcomed and I'm sure your view has a strong representation of opinions and in your case convictions. You were posting long before I have. You were a real annoyance to me initially when you said you won every argument in this estimable Forum. You have won my respect and that's even more important by shedding more light than heat. IMHO.

Nashia could very well had been the lovely Viktoria King. Viktoria King was tutored at home after she was suspended for a semester for fighting at her school in Chocowinity, N.C. In their primary school they have no CP so more likely than not that would apply through the whole school system on page 22. The color of the skin of the staff or the student isn't worth noting IMHO at Renee's school. Believe you me you would never hear from me the color of Viktoria or Jennifer unless you saw their picture. Irrespective of your political persuasion (George W. Bush even acknowledged this after John McCain lost) what a historical event that we could have an African American President of the United States. Within President Obama's lifetime Dr Martin Luther King Jr was shot. That is the American Way. It can turn a shameful page but without vigilance it can all be taken away but I digress.

Let's give TWP credit where credit is do. Bob T your prior paddling experience and my racial experience color (no pun intended) our way of thinking but so what that's a good thing. You represent a large portion of the population and you wouldn't be you if you didn't scream holy hell in the public forum. I represent a sizable population as well and avidly advocate for fairness from my experience. That forum should not be in the state capitol but in smaller and closer venues to where the education is occurring. They may be enabling CP that you are strongly oppossed to but they are standing up for what they believe in and may be having an ameliorating impact on schools that use CP.

With all due respect it is an open question whether the day will come when the USA will go the way of most of the rest of the world or maybe vice a versa. Anyone who says thery're standing on the right side of history must take care that they're not standing on sand. It will be the perceptions of the Nashias that prevail after we are all out of the way. Paddlings pain and bruises lasts seconds but their perceptions will count as much as ours and as much as TWP. There has to always be a marketplace of ideas.

Paula in North Carolina

First offense when it involves fighting is fine but multiple offenses when it involves lesser offenses like Jennifer Washington (shown before) likely coping with a sound paddling that she feels she deserved.

Vicktoria King

No Corporal Punishment in Viktoria School

First offense when it involves fighting is fine but multiple offenses when it involves lesser offenses like Jennifer Washington (shown before) apparently nursing a sore bottom after writing an essay is just plain common sense. Obviously Mr Morris believes in both punishments. There are five times as many girls late than boys in my mentoring program. Jennifer Washington is sorry for being late to Mr. Morris's class

School Paper Crimson Chronicle Jennifer Washington

 
 
American Way

Sorry about the last link.

March 20 2010, 11:32 PM 

I have to get a paddling, another reason I should be punctual. For some teachers, I have to do writing assignments, which is why I wrote this essay. Again, this is another reason why should be punctual class.

Jennifer Washinton Opinion Taste of the Paddle

 
 

Bob T

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

March 21 2010, 12:22 AM 

Amirecan WAy; I think the comment you are responding to was the one I made about student conduct. What I was commenting on was Renee's post in Feb. on TWP about what happens after a ban on scp. I think she is spot on in her assessment but that doesn't mean we should allow CP in our schools. It only means teachers will have to be more vigilent. I have had teachers who had no need for the paddle. Maybe we need more teachers like those.

Here is the quote from Renee that I was referring to.

"

Scenario II

This case, other teachers tell us, is the reality of post-c.p. ban Disciplinary policy. The school board bans school c.p. and discourages the increased use of suspension as a c.p. replacement. Please understand, no school board eliminates suspension -But woe is the principal who has a sharp increase in suspensions right after a c.p. ban. In other words, the unwritten and unsaid message to principals is: Lower your standards of conduct because if you dont, the school board will frown on a high suspension rate."

 

Undoubtedly this is the reality of the situation. However I still think vigilence and firm control of the class is the key. I had a teacher who could make you jump out of your skin just by snapping her fingers (pow,pow) then she would point her finger at the offender and say "you there" and it was like you just got harpooned. . I swear it was like two fire crackers going off in the room. It got everyones attention.


 
 
American Way

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

March 21 2010, 1:44 AM 

Bob T: However wrong headed you may think TWP may be they are far from villains in my book but don't need me to defend them. That's an understatement. wink.gif I'm certianly not going to act as an arbiter or an ombundsman. That being said I'm not saying TWP are not doing any harm but I'm virtually certain they don't have that in mind when they follow their own code they are doing less harm than others and maybe (give them a chance Bob T) might (just might) be doing good. I'm not damming then with faint praise by saying that.

Navigating the Jennifer Washington site gives you a perspective of America that few in the UK may have so it may be worth perusing from 10 years ago. Bomb scares (copy cat) are way down since Columbine. Thank goodness. I do feel if you stop looking at skin color and culture (covenient for sterotyping) and looked at family dynamics (single parenting) and social and economic disadvantages you would see classroom management challenges in a different light. Focusing on a context of commonality of circumstances we can begin to live up to Dr King's dream of judging people according to character and not the color of their skin.

As I mentioned before there are many counties in TX that paddle and suspend incredibly high pecentage numbers. Student codes could be too tough (too high expectations) and classroom management must be poor to rely so heavily on those sanctions. But I'm hesitant to judge for I'm not teaching under those difficult circumstances. But still.....

Jennifer Washington school doesn't paddle anymore. A lot fewer have stopped paddling since 2000. I have no way of knowing how that has skewed suspension rates. IMHO the younger teachers (TWP exception that proves the rule) are not paddling as often for they thenselves (goody two shoes) weren't paddled in their schools and third person "witnessed" paddlings are fewer and fewer. There has been a mingling of urban, suburban, exurbans and rural in neighborhoods that doesn't lend itself toward cohesiveness or consensus about CP. Without getting into politics the Red/Blue states weren't as clearly divided.

With proper safeguards and local support IMHO CP can be used for classroom managenment much in the manner they advocate. I'll look at the 2008/2009 statistics reports pending and I'm sure that in spite of CP in the handbooks they won't anywhere be near as many actual paddlings. They may fade out of high schools faster than middle school. How do you paddle a senior in high school without causing more than incidental tissue bruising if you want to have an impact? Quite frankly the kids are getting sophisticated and are beginning to be clued in about a spanking fetish when they are becoming sexually active in their middle and late teens. They know why there are gender precautions. We are beyond the age of the innocence. Sadly it's a projection of proclivities upon the overwhelmingly honorable teachers. sad.gif

On a lighter note Booneville and Yazoo have two things in common. Tardy girls and hilarious names. happy.gif

 
 
Renee (TWP Editor)

Balsa Wood & Red Bottoms

March 21 2010, 2:47 AM 

Hi y'all:

On "balsa wood", I clearly remember seeing that on the clear wrapping of the the paddleball paddles in the store. I am NO wood expert but these paddles are light but solidly pressed and we at TWP superglue 2 together so they don't break. I have no use for heavy oak wood paddles at all.

As to my experiment, my bottom WAS a slight red and it DID sting. But that is all we at TWP want as to both the paddleball and 16" paddles. (Both are light)

Finally, on school board rules -Yes, they write all the "rules" but also give administrators leeway to make specific rules such as "no rubberband flipping".

Spring Break almost over!

Regards,
Renee

 
 
prof n.

balsa wood

March 21 2010, 9:40 AM 

Hi Renee

Thanks for your response . You are right that balsa (Ochroma pyramidale)comes in a variety of densities, of which the heavier ones would be suitable for ping pong bats.

Obviously the density, weight size and shape of a paddle all matter in terms of end result. As you may remember, I posted last Autumn that we had weighed the paddle I mdse acquaintance with many years earlier and compared it with modern ones. Given it was 16 inches overall, it weighed in at 200g(about 1/2lb) a number of modern High School paddles came in also around that.

Of course there are much larger paddles, not to mention Heath Robinson type split baseball bats etc and weight has also to be compared with shape, density, and so on .Then the physical bounderies of administration , how large a swing , amount of force are also important .These make substantial difference, to the outcome of any paddling, and should be regulated to avoid the potential for abuse.

Underlying this, and it seems to me equally importent , is intent. In the right hands,with good motives, and with the correct guidelines no harm will be done, but in the wrong hands , and the wrong motives, used excessively or capriciously considerable damage can be inflicted. Teachers should always be aware of the aim to good for the student and, at the very least the need to do no harm

Good regulation can,I believe, as you have suggested , can ensure this.I think you have tried to indicate in your blog how this can be achieved.

 
 
American Way

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

March 21 2010, 11:48 AM 

Paddle sizes do make a difference as this previously recommended video shows. Let's hope only a handful of schools are wielding a paddle like this but I'm sure shamefully more than a few are. As I mentioned before Corpun shows regulations even within the same school system for ages plus New Mexico has or had training. That being said Bob T by the sounds of the Nancy paddling would you consider that brutal?

The office paddling IMHO that will be less severe than Kartika's caning but with the courage to submit she won't make a big fuss. God forbid I would never accuse them of lying. Good thing men don't drink over there. Or they don't get caught. Or worse that spineless lot of so called men who appeal their "much more" severe Shariah caning. Give me a break. Sorry I'm on the wrong thread.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4728850183627986644&q=spanking&pr=goog-sl&hl=en#

 
 
Renee (TWP Editor)

Heads Up

March 23 2010, 2:30 AM 

Hello American Way:

I agree with all of your major points but there is a problem IMHO.

The link in your last post showing a paddling video clip is from a "porn site". Do you really think that is a good idea for this ESTEEMED FORUM. I do not wish to come off as a "prude" but only wish to keep the scp debate on the high ground.

Thought I'd just make you aware of the source of that last link.

Best Wishes,
Renee


 
 

Bob T

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

March 23 2010, 8:32 PM 

To answer it simply, no. That was not a severe paddling. It was made to look like a severe paddling. The first clue is the sound. If you have ever heard a hard paddling with a heavy paddle you would know the difference.

You will rarely if ever see a genuine hard paddling of a woman on the internet. No so if you see a man getting it from a woman. Those are the real deal.

The paddling from your clip was actually light to moderate. It was just made to look like a hard one.

I could link to one but like Renee said we don't need no stinking porn on this site.

My grammar was appalling. I wonder if TWP give swats for that?


 
 
American Way

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

March 23 2010, 11:57 PM 

PWT. Simply Googling in strict mode office paddling and voila. Others that's how I should have introduced it instead of an url. Unfortunately there are related videos that adjoin on the right. Renee you're not a prude and as in Reba's Paddles it opens a can of worms as you well know in you early web blogsite.

The recreation of corporal punishment as in the Office Paddling doesn't involve nudity and I referenced it a second time as a point of comparison. For consistency I did the same for Crystel Bottom of the Class for caning comparison and proved useful to one of our female posters. Both models in all likelihood had been on the receiving end less clothed. I would assume if the forum management of this estimable Forum preferred usage as oppossed to esteemed forum the British can be fussy about these matters Renee wink.gif Bob T: "stinking porn on this site" describes the site but IMHO not the scene. Aki to the end justifies the means that I generally don't like but IMHO applies here.
Bob T: TWP welcomed the cameras to silence the anti-CP zealots but obviously for privacy reasons it's not likely to happen. They did so in their "Nancy Proposal). Was her paddling more severe than the acted out Office Paddling. Even at three whacks I don't thinks so. Bob T your paddlings must have been horribly severe (as TWP noted in their web blog but I'm sure not atypical of the times for you to say light to moderate however acted and by sound. The same can be said of the anguish/acting posting with the television program on Thursday on NBC 8:00 to 9:00 shown in Corporal Punishment Lighter Side. Hey I'm no judge of that I'll leave that to others to judge. I think it means you were hit awful hard. ):

Coaches have taken a bum rap (no pun intended) for I'm sure the stereotype of a muscular jock hitting a child dressed in gym shorts has been passed down from generations. Unfortunately Renee's encounter with a coach and his paddle reinforced that stereotype. Fair manded people as I assume TWP don't generalize. My wife is not a teacher but coaches and certainly (no cp there) is very sensitive and the kids turn to her instead of the guidance staff.

Jenny (I'm sorry if I'm skating on thin ice) I'm off to dinner (7pm here) and dressed to the nines for a dance and I'll be a perfect gentleman and treat her like a princess with all the charm a man can muster as if it were our senior prom. happy.gif TWP keep enjoying you vacation and let us know what you think about Texas Teachers Chatboard Re: corporal punishment?

 
 

Bob T

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

March 24 2010, 3:10 AM 

American Way; Most of my paddlings were moderate for the times. Usually two swats bent over the teachers desk. The humiliation and the unfairness was the worst of it.

However, I avoided getting any from the Principal who paddled my brother black and blue and left blood blisters. That was the first paddling I ever heard out in the hall. It boomed so loud I thought the first swat was a sonic boom but two more came immediately after. Then it quit. My teacher said, "it not over,he never gives less than 5. he must be having some trouble staying in position." Just as she said that the 4th swat rang out even harder than before and I heard my brother cry out like he just cut his arm off or something. Two more swats just as hard as the 4th just kept coming. The crying stopped almost immediately but I knew it was my brother. If you have a brother you know what his crying sounds like. I won't go into what happened after wards but my brother was bruised and bloody when he got home.

You might ask what in the hell did he do to deserve such a paddling? Well as far anyone could find out, he simply made the teacher/Principal angry. His 6th grade teacher was also the school Principal. When he paddled someone the whole school heard it.

The severe paddlings "I" got were all at the Military School I attended in Jr High and High School.

I just got a lot of unfair two swat paddling from a bastard I had for 5th grade and then "lucky me" he became the 6th grade teacher when the Principal quit so I had two years of unfair and unjust paddlings. He knew I hated his guts so it was easy for him to bait me into saying something in response that he considered disrespectful. He's lucky to be alive today. I had the chance to kill him on a few occasions but either I was too scared or too smart to go through with it. I hope to urinate on his grave some day.

 


 
 
American Way

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

March 24 2010, 12:27 PM 

Bob T: WOW. You had monsters. That part about your brother being guilty of all making him mad resonated. The Mercies used the word insubordination as my offense. The symbiotic hate relationship also rang an oft too familiar ring as well. There was a kind of reverse symbiosis between their self righteousness and my inquisitiveness that fills my heart and mind with feelings and thoughts that have bedeviled me. My desire is to keep CP moderate. No child they have to take it. That kind of decisions making ability applies to the secondary school level where it is becoming more the rule than the exception. Punitive measures like Saturday school that don't cut into the natural part of schooling are a far better option. It may mean the loss of certain extracuricular activity on the weekend but it's far better option than suspension.

Paddling is a given and I think in light of that Renee et al need to be commended and not condemend by trying to keep children out of harms way. Did you notice they never advocated reinstitution? It's more a preservation of a right and a reaction against those who wrongly demonized and by extension all teachers who paddle. Neither they or the communities deserve to be trashed and I take that by your entering into this reasoned dialogue you're not.

Brother I hear you but in no way will trivialze it by saying I feel your pain or OTOH get over it. My anguish was heightened because of the validation that bullies who never angered them. After I hit my eighth gade teacher I felt better but did I? I cried that day when the good principal said over and over again you're a good boy but not since. I can only find coping mechanisms and not healing forgiveness. haven't forgotten?

 
 
American Way

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

March 24 2010, 2:29 PM 

Bob T: I didn't urinate in school because they stood behind us when we did. I would have to make it look like an accident. If you haven't noticed humor is one of my coping mechanism.

What I Like To Do

 
 

Bob T

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

March 24 2010, 4:10 PM 

Let me give you an example of how your day could go from the best day of your life to sitting on a sore bottom in less than 90 seconds.

I was in the 6th grade and riding the same school bus with the same kids for 4 years now. I finally got up the courage to sit next to the prettiest girl on the bus. She was 2 years older and in my brothers class. nobody ever sat next to her. She could stare you down in nothing flat. But today I sat next to her anyway and we started talking. she wasn't very friendly at first but she came around. So now I could sit next to the prettiest girl on our school bus every day. And it guaranteed me a primo seat because nobody else was going to sit there.

So I walk into class on top of the world. I throw my ball glove into the box with everybody elses and take my seat. Nobody tells me I forgot to take off my ball cap because they all like to see somebody else get paddled. The bell rings and the bastard says, "Bob, you know the rule about no hats on in class. Come up to my desk and bend over."

So my day went from great to another sore bottom day.

And TWP wonders why I oppose CP in the schools.

 
 
American Way

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

March 24 2010, 7:50 PM 

Bob T: Please give me your reaction to the paddling of Nancy Guillen. This from Fall 2009: Jan 26, 2010 ... The University of Arkansas - Fort Smith has released the Dean's List: Nancy Guillen.....www.uafortsmith.edu UA Fort Smith UA Fort Smith News

I bring this up because however smart you are it's hard to do well if you choose to come late to class as often as she did. I'm not saying the paddling cured the problem anymore than a Saturday detention did but in a way giving her an option is doing her a favor that other schools don't have to offer. Right? She traded off a half day of Saturday dentention for the swats of the paddle; it was her choice with plenty of time to muster up the courage to submit to take three seconds of intense pain with residuals. Unless she was first in line she had sometime to consider right by the sounds of things right up to the lasst moment. From what is audible does that seem extreme? Does corporal punishment have any role to play in schools that have had corporal punishment for years?

If you don't want to watch the whole video you can warch between 09 to 12 seconds for the visible swings and from 1:26 to 1:29 for the audible. It is three seconds and five would be about five seconds. Face it I wouldn't want to change places but would you label this as constitutional cruel and unusual. Maybe less than 200,000 paddlings next report with over 300,000,000 people makes it unusual but was it cruel? Do you believe that paddlings are a lot more cruel elsewhere or not sure enough to feel it's worthwhile to become an anti-CP zealot or school corporal punishment tolerant transitionally to the day paddling come to a stop everywhere? Long and short how do you differ from Paula Flowe.

Bob T is this cruel and unusual?


 
 
Big John MOI

Photo Opportunity

March 24 2010, 8:56 PM 

American Way asks:

"How do you [Bob T] differ from Paula Flowe?"

See for yourself!

[URL=[linked image]][IMG]Bob T

[URL=[linked image]][IMG]Paula Flowe

 
 
American Way

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

March 24 2010, 9:02 PM 

Big John MOI: Doggone I found those pictures of Paula and you picked my favorite. happy.gif happy.gif happy.gif happy.gif

 
 

Bob T

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

March 25 2010, 1:52 AM 

John; I think you reversed the names. But if anyone had any doubts yes that is me circa 1971. The paddle was in almost daily use at that school.

The Commandant was a child abusing sadist beyond anything you could imagine. His paddling were either 25 or 50 swats depending on whether your infraction merited a double dose or and this is a big or... if your name happened to already be on that particular paddle. He had two. One for his classroom and one for the Commandants office. Everyone had to sign before their paddling. If your name was already there you put a hash mark next to your name and usually started crying right then. There was no use putting up a bold front. Even the linebackers from the football team screamed before it was over.

I only got one 25 swat paddling from him. But every teacher had a big heavy paddle and the school Principal was always good for 5 hard swats.


 
 

Bob T

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

March 25 2010, 2:06 AM 

American Way; I have seen that clip before and I saw it when it was on TV. Her swats were mild. She came out of the office with a smile and the bottom rubbing was probably scripted.

The Principal was fired after that was broadcast.

I have seen other clips from cell phones in Arkansas classrooms and you can see the teacher leaves his paddle lying on the desk along with a bunch of papers. But you notice the paddle is on top of all the papers. What does that tell you?

AR is a paddle happy state. I was just in AR recently. Things are changing there rapidly. 30 years ago that place was like walking into the "Deliverance" movie. Now since the internet and communication advances they are starting to catch up with the rest of us.

I think I already made it clear I have no problem with Jr High and High School kids "CHOOSING" swats over detention.

It is the no option swats that I object to. Those are the places where abusers feel safe.


 
 
Jenny

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

March 25 2010, 2:42 AM 

Hi Bob T

I have seen other clips from cell phones in Arkansas classrooms and you can see the teacher leaves his paddle lying on the desk along with a bunch of papers. But you notice the paddle is on top of all the papers. What does that tell you?

A paddle makes a good paperweight.

Given your experiences, I can understand your objection to CP but it isn't all like that. I received my fair share (and it was fair) of CP when I was younger but I wouldn't say I was abused - quite the opposite in fact.


 
 

Bob T

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

March 25 2010, 3:51 AM 

Hi Jenny; I know not everyone's experience with scp was like mine. You ask just about anybody in my 5th and 6th grades class and they would tell you they only got paddled once or maybe twice. I had an adversarial relationship with the teacher. He picked me out the first minute of the first day of school to be his "example". It was designed to strike fear into the hearts of everyone in the class. I would say it worked on everyone except me. I only hated him for it. I regret to this day not killing him when I had the chance.

 
 
Renee (TWP Editor)

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

March 25 2010, 4:10 AM 

Hello y'all:

On Bob T.'s dislike of "no option" paddling -What are you talking about? The elementary students who we have paddled have ALREADY been warned and we always check for opt outs. The child STILL can choose defiance and a six day suspension. Just remember: Paddlings for us is NOT spur of the moment and refusal by the child is, in a way, defiance of both the school AND the parents.

As to "ball caps", what happened WAS abusive but should not be compared to the present. We at TWP just take any caps and hold them until 3:00 dismissal with 1 recess sit in.

A W, on "reinstitution", we at TWP WOULD like the "state bans" to be repealed with elected school boards being allowed to decide if to reinstate scp.-Grassroots democracy!

All the Best,
Renee

 
 

Bob T

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

March 25 2010, 3:58 PM 

I don't know who you think you are kidding Renee. Refusing swats is like shooting yourself in the foot. You know as well as I do that six day suspension is just the beginning. You and the school board would make an example out of that kid and ruin his/her future. And it's all about your little power trip and your exclusive right to use CP. The Police don't get to use it. The courts don't get to use it. The Prisons don't get to use it . Even parents are arrested for using it. But schools sure do and they plan on fighting tooth and nail to keep it that way. No little kid is going to jeopardize that. You would crush him figuratively speaking.

Lets see what comes after or during the six day suspension. Of course this would all be laid out to the parents in advance. But suppose he/she still won't take the swats. The six days little Johnny misses are "critical" he won't be able to graduate to the next grade with his class. So he will have to repeat 4th grade. Next during his 6 day suspension the truant officer shows up at Johnny's house. How did they find out? Johnny or his parent is arrested for truancy. Then Family Services show up and take Johnny and his siblings away from an "unfit" parent.

Why did all this happen? Because Johnny shot a rubber band at school.


 
 
American Way

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

March 25 2010, 7:05 PM 

After what you went through at school Bob T I can understand why you would strongly believe they would be hatching up these nefarious plots leading to these worst case scenarios. Is it it possible? Yes. Is it extememly unlikely? Yes. Is it insulting to imply that an honorable poster of this estimable Forum would act that way? Yes quite frankly. Renee could explain to you why a six day suspension would not likely lead to staying back and explain truancy officers but maybe in a contentious period it would be wiser to deal with those issues later.

TWP speaks of grassroot democracy (more voices and more sides the better). Your best argument is to say its proper use is not worth the chance that it would be abused and then share there what you shared here in a small room of administrators/teachers and parents even students. In my area they allow one senior in high school (liberal district but I agree) to be elected by the student body to be a non-voting represenative of the school board.

TWP clarified the rubber band incident. It made it more understandable but still not to my liking. Renee in light of her fair warnings defined it as major act of defiance and because he had priors strongly believed it merited paddling or she would never do it.

That being said try walking a mile in his freshly paddled jeans. This rubber band warrior like Renee has a narrative that will likely stick with him for life. It's not everyday when someone other than your parents hits you with an object. Spankings are more frequent in homes. The old: You're not to big for me to take you over my knee" There is an intimacy about spanking that is totally inappropriate in a school setting especially across that male to female side.

We are all self exculpating but what you and I have gone through it's hard not to think malicious aforethought. Him talking now: That new woman flips out over every little thing. Sure I was wrong flinging rubber bands but if she caught so and so doing it would be no big deal. Was I the only one or was I stupid enough to get caught? He may be wrong headed but he could be thinking along these lines. Could you blame him? Introspection Renee may lead you to believe that the same sef exculpating phenomenom may be going on here but I'm not allowed to throw passes on Sunday. happy.gif If I wouldn't be me if I wasn't inquisitive. happy.gif So forgive me if forgiveness is warranted.

I'm sorry Renee I'm thinking like a kid. He doesn't understand preemptive attacks (Iraq) and the reason why it could escalate to paper clips which he would never do of course wink.gif. I'm sure he would if someone flinged one would retaliate in kind. Rubber bands are an accident waiting to happen and no punishment was not an option. Corporal punishment is another matter. IMHO fair game for our discussion. Renee it seems lately I'm not taking your side but on the most part that's not true and if you read all my posts you would know that to be true.

Without being patronizing Bob T I have great empathy for you and I hope your venting anger will be interperted not as an ad hominem attack but I can understand why she would. Bob T you're not as strident in your views about CP but you are sounding more and more like her in your abhorence to Renee. Paula looks fetching with those glasses. Doesn't she? wink.gif

Bob T it really is about malicious aforethought. Whatever rationalizing behavior TWP may or may not be using I would never lay that on them. I don't think TWP is saying don't question them but you have to understand why if in fact they are being unjustly accused they would be torqued off. Was my eight grade teacher guilty of malicious aforerthought? Yes. She would start the day by saying get that smile off your face while lining up for the opening bell in the school yard. I have buck teeth so I would force my upper lip to cover them. The kids would then laugh. She would slap me across the mouth and say. See what you did? You made the whole class laugh. She didn't have much to worry about because she said I do all my heavy hitting in the morning so you you'll have no matks to show when you go home. She didn't like me smiling because she wanted me to be miserable from minute one.

Please don't tell me I'm too inquisitive. ):

 
 
willeyeckaslike

Teachers Who Paddle

March 25 2010, 8:50 PM 

I would like to ask Renee why a six day suspension ?

Would 5 days (one school week) not be enough ? Even one weeks suspension seems rather excessive for what I would consider to be a "normal" paddling of 2 or 3 swats. One week, 5 days, to me equates to what would be a "severe" paddling of 5 swats. Or is it always a severe paddling of 5 swats or more at your school. I am NOT an anti CP type, in fact I think there should be more of it, but only to a reasonable level, especially with kids in junior school. The only time I could condone any type of severe punishment would be for older pupils in secondary schools, an only then for something bordering criminal activity, or outright abuse of teachers.
As you laid the law down to your class about flicking rubber bands, I support you that some form of punishment should follow, But SIX days suspension ?
I am not sure how the American school system works, but I gather if a pupil does not make the grade, they have to stay in the same class the following year, and I have seen it here that missing one weeks tuition means a failed grade, just for flicking a rubber band ? You are dealing with children, they are going to be naughty at times, that is quite normal, and it is quite normal for a good teacher to take some action. But to expect children to take absolute notice of one warning of a minor miss demeanour, is expecting too much of them. You can only expect absolute obedience about a minor thing from someone a lot older that is in the marines or SAS.

 
 
Renee (TWP Editor)

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

March 25 2010, 9:29 PM 

Hello again y'all:

Bob T. and A W, I've read your accounts of abuse in school and all I can say is that those so-called teachers were ABUSERS. Bob, where we part is the labeling of all scp as abusive.

As to the scenario Bob posted on the 6 day suspension: Totally False. Truancy officers and Children's Services are NOT informed on longer suspensions. And as to making up the work: There will be a lot of catching up to do but that is not too difficult to do. Some former students of mine had to have their appendix taken out and missed classtime too -But managed to get caught up. If the student is willing to do the make up work, we teachers are ready to tutor them as needed.

On "self exculpating", that is known as "living in a state of denial" and while children may practice this, it is emotionally unhealthy to stay in that "state" into adulthood. Perhaps the way we at TWP talk to the kids later helps to alieviate this. We explain the reason why the paddling happened and let the child know that we have no ill-will towards them. I think that works wonders in pushing the "re-set" button.

Note: Next TWP post will be out on Saturday and will be well worth the wait!

Regards,
Renee

 
 

Bob T

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

March 25 2010, 10:18 PM 

Just for the record. I am not angry. I am having fun. I know for a fact that Renee and TWP try to sugar coat everything so they don't lose the scp option. Lets take the 6 day suspension for one example.

At first Renee said it would be a 3 day suspension. When I called BS she admitted that they do add another 3 days for refusing the paddle.

Second, at my school they were a lot more straight forward about it. If you refused a paddling you were expelled from school until you changed your mind and came back to take a serious paddling. If you stayed home more than a few days the truant officer did indeed show up. This never happened but those were the threats they made. And I know for a fact that it would have to be a serious paddling offense (by the Principal) or these things would not happen. Because then the teacher would have justify the reason for the refused paddling to the Principal and the School Board. The reason I know for a fact is because a girl in my class refused a paddling from our paddle happy teacher and the next day her big brother came and told the teacher that if his father had to take off work to straighten this out there was going to be trouble. These were both really big guys. I loved that girl after that because I never got paddled again by that bastard. Every time he tried I just said no and laughed at him. He was going through hell with nobody to paddle after that. So I was saved by a courageous girl. Of course she already knew her dad would back her up. 


 
 
Renee (TWP Editor)

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

March 26 2010, 2:35 AM 

Hey Bob T.:

I think you are starting to "lose it" -You have NO clue what you are talking about when you refer to my postings!

As to "Willey"'s question: After the scp step, the next step is 3 day suspension. Willfull defiance by refusal to accept a paddling will result in a 3 day suspension which is added to the 3 day suspension for the original offense. Regardless, there is NO scp if the parents opted their kids out -We never go against parental wishes. But I have never heard of a student in the elementary school defying the school's authority either.

At the end of the day, it is the teachers, with the parents, who are in charge of the schools -Not the kids. Never has been and never will be.

Regards,
Renee

 
 
prof.n

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

March 26 2010, 11:05 AM 



Hi Renee,

You say:


At the end of the day, it is the teachers, with the parents, who are in charge of the schools -Not the kids. Never has been and never will be.


I recently attended a function at a state school in GB. The keynote of the introductory speech was that 'student centred learning' was now to be superseded by 'student led learning'.

Included in this concept it was explained was the important issue that should a student 'fail' in academic or discipline terms the responsibility for failure is owned by the institution not the student. We do not live in a blame culture. We must never apportion consequences.

Just thought that interesting.


 
 

Bob T

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

March 26 2010, 2:50 PM 

Renee; You will have to give me an example where I am losing it otherwise it just looks like you are resorting to insults or hurling jabs my way. Don't worry you are not the first. You are on the wrong side of this debate. Hitting people is wrong (except in self defense). There are laws against it for everyone except teachers. You don't want to give that up. I understand. Paddles are much cheaper and easier than councillors. Just whack the kid and don't worry about WHY he/she is acting out.

Also, I can't wait to read your TWP post about camera's in the classroom. This should be interesting.


 
 
American Way

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

March 26 2010, 5:29 PM 

Bob: T. An absolutists position I respect and people may look back and say that the days of SCP were not our finest hour in the history of classroom management but tell me in the mean time are they doing more harm than good in the classroom and in fostering the aim of their blog site? their blog? If you had your druthers and opportunity would you let others know where they taught? Inquisitive American Way,

 
 
American Way

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

March 26 2010, 6:13 PM 

Renee: It would be good to remind partakers that your site is named teacherS. Am I right in assuming that you are the oldest? happy.gif With what I assume to be soon less than 200,000 paddlings (not kids paddled) so would it be safe to say that in their firsts ten years of teaching there are 100's and not 1000's that are paddling students. Consider the fact that paddling is delegated more and more often outside the classroom to the office? Would it be safe to say those numbers will decrease with the aging of the teaching population? My point? How long do you think the practice will last without the growing number of bans and not the rise of them? Do you feel like dinosaurs? Did you anticipate the vitriolic opposition or in fact you did and wanted to respond in a corrective manner?

Inquisitive (I hope not annoying) American Way. I hope some of these questions raised and addressed in a more focus and systematic way in sunsequent postings on your blog site. Most of these matters have been dealt with but be putting the questions in this form may make it easier for the reader. As you well know a good teacher (the nuns weren't in this regard) sad.gif doesn't tire easily when a student asks a question dealt with in an earlier class or earlier blog.

Lastly when your colleagues return from spring break (less bacchanal since graduation I hope) wink.gif would you care to respond to Dr Dominum's broken cane farewell Valente Pueri? Your response I'm sure will enrich our estimable Forum.

 
 

Bob T

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

March 26 2010, 8:23 PM 

American Way; If by "they" you mean the four teachers fromTWP then no I can't say they are doing more harm than good. But they are only four teachers and since they are proponants of scp they must be lumped in with the others. Some of them are abusers. That is the main reason they are on the losing side of this issue.

I don't care where they are located and I would not wish them to be mobbed by the anti CP zealots. The problem is they are a small microcosm even in their own school district. I would be willing to bet that we could find an abuser in their school district. Somebody who hits too hard and hits too often.

I know a lot of parents want cp in the schools. I am in GA this week and I just finished talking to a woman who is having trouble with her 13 daughter at school. She said she had signed papers for all her older kids to be paddled at school but they have banned it now so she is having to jump through hoops because now she has deal with councillors and even family services are involved. Her husband died last year and she believes it has had an effect on her d aughter. She wishes they would bring back the paddle. Is she right? I don't think so and I didn't have the courage ask if she ever got paddled at school. You see I have found the strongest advocates for scp were never paddled at school themselves. Those who got their own butts blistered are not so quick to say go ahead and paddle them. It's usually the ones who got a few spankings with a belt or a switch at home who say "well it never did me any harm". Well  it is not the same getting a spanking from a loving parent as it is getting a paddling from some cold hearted Principal who thinks your butt is good batting practice.


 
 
Renee (TWP Editor)

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

March 27 2010, 3:36 AM 

Hello y'all:

Bob T., you said "...her big brother came and told the teacher that if his father had to take off work to straighten this out there was going to be trouble. These were both really big guys."

That was stupid, Bob.

If someone came to me like that, I would have instructed said person to tell their father to make an appointment with the principal and me. The next day, there would have been a fourth person in the conference: A sheriff deputy! That deputy would have simply reminded the "angry father" that threats against employees of a school district is a crime and to take complaints to the central office or school board instead if unwilling to meet civilly with school staff.

Understand me, Bob: I think those teachers you had WERE abusive but please be careful what you say online because there are real NUT-CASES out there and teachers have been attacked and seriously injured.

Prof. N., you made an interesting observation. Today's young people are going to have to take responsibility for their own academics and behavior. If they think the "learning curve" is steep now -Wait until they reach adulthood. In that sense, the only matrix from a boss is "Do it MY way or the highway..."

A W, you said "would you care to respond to Dr Dominum's broken cane farewell Valente Pueri?" I am clueless what you are taking about. Please fill me in. As to your questions, maybe TWP will address them in a future FAQ segment.

Our newest post is about to be published.

All the Best,
Renee

 
 
American Way

Broken Canes and Broken Sticks

March 27 2010, 12:38 PM 

Renee: Dr Dominum had been teaching since 1957. That was the year when my second grade teacher who also served as a principal had me bend over a desk and brought one boy to tears and I conjured up an image (Dad' name/rank/serial number scenarion) of a Nazi and didn't cry through many more strokes than he did. Had we confessed we didn't do what the teacher asked us to do we wouldn't be punished. Of coutse it was done by forgetfulness but how tormenting it was to watch 50 students be called up to receive their papers and find out that I was going to get the stick. PA's (possibly state of the art in 1957) was used to broadccast the sounds with the preface being: "this is what happens when you don't put you're name on the paper".

She had several sticks with different diameters. The joke among the boys was the girls got one grade less in diameter than the boys like the Malaysian rotan. My Dad went to the same school and received similar experiences abd I was the youngest of fout and the only one that got the stick. Dad told me his horror stories and said I was more like him than my siblings but there were 52 kids in the class and that I should try not to be the joker.

When I saw the broken cane I remembered sixth grade. We had no auditorium or cafeteria (bag lunches in the classroom) making a PA system a necessity. Thankfully the new Principal in sixth grade broke all the sticks over her knee in front of all the pupils watching on the staicase. She said sticks were made to train animals but children have reason and free will and won't be beaten. I don't think the girls got the stick because one said I don't like Sister she doesn't like animals.

Long and short is having gone through that and knowing that CP is a given why I think your asserting the reasonable use of the paddle worthwhile. From these experiences my concerns with fairness and moderation stem but I don't peg them on all teachers. Bob T in all likely is right that some teachers are abusers and some good teachers make wrong decisions. The nature of denial is black and white (visceral by nature of a nuns habit). Every circumstance involves some degree of self exculpation (try controlling 52 kids while being principal) and the afflicted (try behaving alike when God made us so different) and the list can go on and on.

You may have parents or grandparents with these experiences that might use a broader stroke than me but these vignettes from yore may help you understand better the vehemence of the zealotry that I think unfavorably placed upon you. You did welcome people to share their anecdotes on your website and for that you should be commended. It helps people understand where there is mutual enlightenment.

I'm sorry if some of this is repetitive but I can't restrain myself and refrain from commenting. I don't believe in grammar and spell checks so pardon that as well.

 
 

Bob T

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

March 27 2010, 2:13 PM 

Renee; My elementary school was even smaller than yours. I think there were about 18 kids per grade K-6. So 126 kids in the school. After the Principal quit we had a roving principal. He covered 3 schools I think. Secondly, the town in which my school was located had a population of about 350. Plus this was 1969. Things like this were handled differently. Had my male teacher called the Police he would have never lived it down. He would simply be a laughing stock anywhere he went. Besides, she didn't really do anything wrong other than argue with the teacher. He didn't have a very good reason to paddle her.

 
 

Doctor Dominum

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

March 27 2010, 2:17 PM 

Dr Dominum had been teaching since 1957.

People are making me feel even older than I am!

I began teaching in 1959. In 1957 I was still working on my BSc.

AW, I suspect this is a case of people assuming everybody on this forum reads everything on this forum, something that has happened before. There are some people who only read the occasional thread, or particular threads and so should not be assumed to be aware of everything else being posted here.

 
 

Bob T

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

March 28 2010, 7:59 PM 

I don't think TWP has a very good idea about what it was like to be a teacher in the 1960's.

First, teachers could do no wrong. They were the ones who gave all the stay at home moms time to do whatever they wanted as long as they were home in time for the school bus to arrive. So if you did happen to call my mom and say you were going to paddle me for whatever reason she would say go ahead. In fact give him/her an extra swat. It'll toughen him/her up. Almost all moms were stay at home moms. You teachers were a God send.

Second, the civil rights movement was in full swing at the time. MLK was still alive and doing his thing. Racism was rampant at my little school in southern IL. Black people were referred to as "colored" or worse. "Ladies" used the word "negras" in the plural form. They couldn't bring themselves to pronounce the word Negro's. We couldn't talk about any of it at school. Up until the 5th grade the black kids always played sports with us like baseball and basketball. They stayed away starting in the 5th grade. I don't think it was the teacher even though he was the abuser from hell. It was a very sensitive subject that all teachers had to deal with. If you had to paddle a black kid you better find a reason paddle a white kid at the same time or there would be a riot at the school. But generally the black moms loved teachers too.

It was a different time. All of those parents had lived through the depression and WWII. They thought kids needed toughening up.

It was unheard of to involve the police in anything to do with the school. That's why the Principal got away with what he did to my brother. My dad wanted the police and lawyers and Dr.'s but my mom wouldn't spend the money. She was tighter than bark on a tree. She could make ol' George yell uncle.
It was why the girl in my class got away with refusing cp. The teacher wasn't going to call the police. People just did not call the police on each other back then.

 
 
Renee (TWP Editor)

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

March 28 2010, 10:22 PM 

Bob T., you said:

"People just did not call the police on each other back then."



And people didn't make explicit or implicit threats against teachers back then...except the few "nut-cases".

Bob, your "ancient history lessons" need to be on another thread because it has NO bearing on us at TWP. What happened back then in scp was a LOT harsher than anything we would consider. So stop trying the "guilt by association" b.s. because what happened to you occurred before I was even born.

I invite you to read one of our most popular posts below from Sept. 2008. This saga is from a teacher who did receive an abusive paddling in high school. But if you read the whole post, you will be surprised at her conclusions.

http://teacherswhopaddle.wordpress.com/2008/09/page/2/

The title is A TEACHER'S PADDLING: THE OTHER END.

Like the times of any era, the world cannot always be seen in just "black and white" -Except for old b&w film clips. (But I AM thankful that segregation was ended years ago and that America is a more civil and just society.)

Regards,
Renee

 
 

Another_Lurker

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

March 29 2010, 2:05 AM 

This is the 300th post in this long-running and recently very active thread. Whilst American Way and I have not always seen eye to eye of late I hope that he will accept this little touch of colour to celebrate the success of his thread in the spirit in which it is offered.

I can't display any pictures I'm afraid, but at least the very significant achievement of 300 posts will not pass unmarked. My congratulations to TWP (in the person of Renee), Bob T, Prof. n and everyone else who has participated, and of course to American Way himself! Long may the debate continue!

 
 
American Way

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

March 29 2010, 2:49 AM 

I loved the colors. I am a proud to be an American. Color me human.

Bob T: I posted earlier a letter written by a teacher on the difficulties of incorporating racial parity in CP. Some whites are loathing paddling blacks. For example if a white child misbehaves and is given a free pass and the black child isn't whatever the extenuating circumstances it causes problems. My very unpopular matrix (uneasy thread) makes me seem cold and inflexible but unfairness for everyone triggers emotions and engenders thoughts that are hard to stem. Does that mean every black child be exempt from paddling? No. No one is as color blind as they (all colors) claim and race discord has riddled this country everywhere but without demonizing the south it should be remembered that the Secret Service discouraged our President to campaign against his secretary of state in the very states where paddling abounds with the exception of FL where the primaries really didnt matter.

The statistical skew for black paddlings has a lot to do with bad behavior from absent fathers. IMHO this is seen in the judicial system as well. When the economy was better affirmative action gave a compensatory benefit for they were treated. Free lunch (it's hard to study on an empty stomach) and Head Start pre-school education (it's hard to read when your parents are functionally illiterate) programs target the entire disadvantage that are predominately black. It's not a matter of handing out grades or money but giving the disadvantaged an equal opportunity.

It was academic merit scholarships and not economic opportunity loans that gave me the opportunity to succeed. Practically the only black students were basketball players. But I graduated from college (1971) the age of your professors and blacks had to be steered away from southern white faculty members teaching in my northeastern college

I grew up in a small urban city in the northeast where everyone thought there was no racism. I'm sure it was there when you were living in northern IL but it was more subtle. A cousin from the "white" side of the family told my prom date that I was colored. She went ballistic for me not telling her. I explained that color didn't matter and if I were black I would be proud of it. I called her a bigot and she said she was only thinking about the burdens placed upon a biracial child.

senior proms


School is the one place kids have an opportunity to break from their color groupings even if it is only during the 180 days of the school year. Our attorney general said as much workdays.

nation of cowards

This ranting and raving was from my stepping on a minefield that Renee didnt plant but l by telling me Nashias and Amys color look what has been wrought? I dont want to know TWP color. Color me human. American Way.



 
 
American Way

Fact check

March 29 2010, 3:11 AM 

I meant to say disproportionately and not predominately black. Bob T and I have shared a lot of history both good and bad. And we are not your fiercest critics on this estimable Forum. Bob T enlighten if otherwise.

Harry Truman was president when I was born and I'm pretty sure Bob T and Truman said:

The only thing new in this world is the history that you don't know

respect your elders happy.gifhappy.gifhappy.gif

 
 

Bob T

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

March 31 2010, 8:00 PM 

I've noticed the girls over at TWP haven't been posting lately. Either they are very busy right now or I/we have managed to hurt their feelings with our comments.

 
 
American Way

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

March 31 2010, 8:26 PM 

Bob T: By BY WE I hope you don't mean ME. I'm on TWP side more often than not. I am critical but I'm not where the decisions are made and I may only be Monday morning quarterbacking. They are entitled to a break. That is commendable and worth noting. Thanks TWP from the American Way.

 
 

Bob T

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

March 31 2010, 9:06 PM 

AW, You remind me of a rat that deserts a ship that isn't even sinking. I don't know how you ever got in trouble at school. You seem like the "teachers pet" who always brought an apple to school for the teacher.

 
 
American Way

Does anyone folow my mind?

March 31 2010, 10:30 PM 

Bob T: Touchee. I was a teacher pest not a teacher pet. I came close to getting the stick in my sophomore year. The teacher was out of the room and I couldn't smell her coming. She caught two boys and a girl. I was ready to be Tom Sawyer and spare the girl from the stick but was I relieved when she changed her mind and pointed at the girls and said don't think I wouldn't. I was unpopular enough without fessing up that I caused the commotion by sticking the point of my compass on her bottom. Two boys were hit about a half dozen times. They were holding back tears. I was thanking my lucky stars. One came back and became principal (gentle sort wouldn't swat a fly) of the school where there were fewer and fewer nuns. Soon after they clsoed the school for lack of cheap labor. The other went to the Peace Corps to avoid the draft. If you turned 18 before you entered college in September you became eligible. Again I thanked my lucky stars as did the boy who became principal.

I did get hit in my juniior year as in slapped in the face. The professed nuns wore tings so it left a mark. She chaperoned debate trips and drove us to visit her mother who spoke with a German accent. She was on my case because I gave a speech for an American Legion contests saying it took as much patriotism not to go to Vietnam and suffer the consequences than to go there. She was a big fan of LBJ. We all had to say who how hero in history and why. I said Winston Churchill and the class dummy looked to me for help so I said Adolph Hitler. She asked why and I whispered for him to repeat because he killed so many Jews. He did repeat. He had coke bottle glasses but everyone fell into that category were considered of dumb. She knew of course it was me so she belted my but not having been hit since I hit back in eighth grade I struck back verbally. I dug in my heels looked her in her eyes and said you learned to hit from yout German mother.

She apologized several decades later. I was going to say I desreved it but she was already under the influence. Years later she could count the kids she hit and I was the best behave that she did. happy.gif

As for jumping ship I'm in no one's amen corner. Thank you may I have another. I thought originally you were an absolutists until CP with choice for secondary school. We're on the same page on that one. As far as the rats my son met Peter Singer at Princeton and now feels a oneness with rats. I was afraid it was from me.

Does anyone follow my mind?

 
 

Bob T

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

March 31 2010, 10:55 PM 

I just got around to reading "A Teachers Paddling: The Other End." An amusing choice of words. But it's not amusing what happened to "Courtney". But you at TWP try to make a story like this sound unusual or rare. It is not. Especially in places like Texas or Arkansas. Really any small rural school dist. is likely to have this sort of thing going on. That is why I feel the girls at TWP have such an up hill battle going on. All it takes is one Mr/MRS. Hard Paddler like "Coach B" to destroy everything you are working for.

I will always oppose scp but if I had to accept it I would want the girls from TWP in charge. Although I do have serious reservation about Renee after reading about her two handed paddling. That is way over the top. If you want to "get your point across" so to speak, there are other ways of doing it. You obviously don't know the tricks of the trade or wouldn't have to use two hands.

(I can't believe I am giving paddling tips to an assistant principal) First tip, If you make them actually bend over instead of putting their hands on the wall it will hurt much more. Why? Because if they are bending over far enough they can't clench their buttocks or move slightly at the moment of impact thus lessening the force of the swat. The farther you make them bend over the more it hurts, yet there is no more bruising than if their hands were on the wall. You can take my word for it, I know from experience. If I was told to just "bend over" I usually just complied. I knew it wasn't going be that bad. If I was told to bend over and grab ankles, I started trying to negotiate right away. I usually talked my way out of 5 swats down to 3. Those touch toes or grab ankle paddlings are to be avoided.
Another "trick" is to wait 15 or 20 seconds after the first swat for the full effect to sink in then give the second swat. That makes a more effective two or three swat paddling.

The most effective (painful) paddling is the touching toes, knees straight, 5 non stop swats. The secondary burn from the first swat gets there at about the same time as the 5th swat and that is what makes it something you don't want to get.

I dare you girls at TWP to try that with your husbands.

 
 
Renee (TWP Editor)

TIPS(?)

April 1 2010, 2:45 AM 

Hello y'all:

Bob T.: Don't flatter yourself -I read more vile comments directed at TWP in a single day than this thread gets posts in a month.

A W, We at TWP ARE busy: Trying to educate the next generation. The closer to the end of school year we get, the harder it gets (And I am not talking scp!)

Bob, as to technique: We use the brace with hands against the wall but with bending over as well. The student is slightly leaning forwards with knees bent a little. The student cannot throw hands back w/o falling forwards -That is why we almost always use this method.

As to Courtney, the morale of her saga is that despite the abuse she endured from that idiot coach, she did NOT become an unhinged anti c.p. zealot. Rather, she separated what happened to herself from the legitimate use of moderate scp.

Finally, it would be tempting for me to paddle my hubby John instead of nagging him to work on that back porch roof leak but he is just too big for me to pull off the recliner. Especially during "March Madness".

All the Best,
Renee

 
 

Bob T

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

April 1 2010, 6:33 AM 

Renee; I am crushed! Gutted! I can't believe you think I am unhinged. Or a Zealot! We are not that far apart on our views.

You think you should hit the little kids and I think you should hit the older kids if they have a choice. 

You want cameras in the schools. So do I.  I think we just differ on how they should be used. But I don't know for sure because you won't comment on my thread about the subject.

I think any teacher who uses a paddle should have to be paddled themselves first. You must not totally disagree because you gave it a half hearted attempt with your husband. But I'm sure the suggestion goes over like a lead balloon with the other teachers.

I think it is really just wrong to begin with and it is impossible to eliminate abuse. You think it's not impossible.

 

Finally, sneak up on your husband and whack him good because I can tell you from experience that putting off roof repairs for even a little while becomes very costly very quickly. This is no joke. You better motivate him on that roof repair.


 
 
Renee (TWP Editor)

Unhinged?

April 3 2010, 8:00 PM 

Hello y'all:

Bob T., I think you are WAY too hypersensitive! I NEVER called you "unhinged" but too many of the anti- c.p. zealots ARE.

As to scp, we at TWP disfavor it in the upper grade levels -Although we do not want ANY new laws passed to that effect. The politicians have done enough damage ALREADY! Check out our post from August 2008.

http://teacherswhopaddle.wordpress.com/2008/08/

But unless parents out out, the elementary child can be paddled as a last resort -In that case, the child has no more a vote than at home. Remember, we the teachers and the parents work together for the benefit of the child.

On the "leaking patio roof" -Success! I managed to convince John in my own way to "get to work"! (Don't bother asking because I'm not telling! Giggle)

Have a great Easter, everyone,
Renee

 
 

Bob T

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

April 3 2010, 8:25 PM 

My advice to your husband. "You can be right or you can be happy. You choose". This is time tested advice.

 
 

Bob T

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

April 3 2010, 10:18 PM 

"But unless parents out out, the elementary child can be paddled as a last resort -In that case, the child has no more a vote than at home. Remember, we the teachers and the parents work together for the benefit of the child."

You see, you placate and reasure the parents with words like those (even I was almost convinced) and then you hire Mr/Mrs. Paddle Hard or just some paddle happy abuser who has just been given "Carte Blanche" to paddle away on our children. And then when he gets caught you close ranks like the Catholic Church and protect "one of your own".  That's the part that just makes me sick to think I might turn my child over to someone like you.  

You seem sincere and fair, but then somebody gets a black eye and you use two handed swats. So you are just a good Spin Dr. like the rest.

And another thing that rubs me the wrong way is , you don't want to be painted with the "guilt by association" paint brush but you are perfectly willing to do it to your students. I read it in your Feb. 2008 blog post. You warn kids not to hang out with the class clowns or trouble makers because they will be considered one of them. Well, guess what? You hire and work with Mr./Mrs. Paddle Hard the abusers and you look like one of them.


 
 
Renee (TWP Editor)

Feb. 2008?

April 4 2010, 1:55 AM 

Hey Bob T.:

What the HECK are you muttering about? TWP did not even EXIST in Feb. 2008.

As for your anti- c.p., that's fine -Just don't pretend to be "middle of the road" because you're not.

Again, NO child has been or will be paddled by us if the parent says "NO".

GETIT?

This bunny has some last minute eggs to color for the Easter Egg Hunt tomorrow so I better be hopping along.

May everyone have a Blessed Easter,
Renee

 
 

Bob T

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

April 4 2010, 4:12 PM 

I can see it is useless trying to have a meaningful discussion or debate with you.  Just keep your head in the sand and your fingers in your ears and you won't ever have to see or hear any reasons to stop hitting our little ones.

 
 
Renee (TWP Editor)

Meaningful Discussion?

April 5 2010, 3:45 AM 

Hey Bob T.;

Exactly how do you define "Meaningful Discussion"? Is it "I'm right and you're wrong?"

As I see it -You are anti-c.p. and I am not -Although I am a lot MORE restrictive on it than you give me credit for. If you don't believe that, just read and research ALL of TWP'S archives.

Until then, we will just have to agree to disagree.

One other point: I am all FOR cameras in the classroom. I'd like nothing better than to show some overprotective and overbearing parents how their "darling sweet angels" REALLY behave in school. Might change some parental attitudes.

Regards,
Renee

 
 

Bob T

OMG! Hell Must have froze over!

April 5 2010, 2:36 PM 

Renee and I agree on something. You could knock me over with a feather. Just when I had given up all hope of ever finding any common ground.  If you have cameras in the classroom you could eleminate almost all abuse.  I might be willing to take a "lets see how this works attitude". But you and I both know the teachers unions would never agree.

As a show of good faith, I might know some place you can get custom made paddles that is not a fetish web site. The man is retired so I will have to ask before I send you his address. That is if you are still looking for a place. Let me know. 


 
 
Renee (TWP Editor)

Yess, but...

April 5 2010, 7:52 PM 

Hello again, Bob T.:

I'm glad we agree on something but I must concur on one point.

Bob, you mentioned the teacher unions NOT agreeing to cameras in the classroom. That is true so far as evaluating teacher performance: The teacher's union (or association as we call it) would have to agree to cameras focused ON TEACHERS -I understand because I was an "association teacher" one year (Think of a union shop steward) at the elementary school where I taught. My camera idea iss to focus exclusively on the kids in the classroom by placing the camera in front or back at a wide angle. The teacher in front of the class would not appear unless they stood next to a student. The biggest problem would be the A.C.L.U. which would ague about "right to privacy" -Go figure that one out.

The camera for recording scp would be only in the designated place where a paddling was administered. See TWP's post on cameras a couple weeks ago for more details.

Regards,
Renee

 
 
prof.n

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

April 5 2010, 9:00 PM 

I don't know the legislative arrangements in the US which, I guess, will vary from State to State, but here in the UK the position on closed cctv is very complicated. About five years ago the apartment block i live in determined to install cctv in the communal area and grounds, approach drives etc., as a precaution after a criminal incident at another block in the area.

I am Chairperson of our management committee, and we had the necessary meetings with potential installation companies / monitoring services, and eventually chose an all singing , all dancing computer controlled digital system . It cost an arm and a leg!!!! The bureaucracy was crazy!!

For example the police told us we required notices at ALL the entrances to the property indicating to the public that cctv images were being taken : why they were being taken ( resident security) and where these images could be viewed ( freedom of information). Moreover we must direct the external cameras so that they photographed our property, gates, doors etc. , but not the public highway!

A couple of months after the system was installed, the police arrived at my door. Was is possible to view the cctv recordings, because there had been a near fatal accident at the neighboring crossroads and they wondered what we had recorded of it. Naturally, as I suspected, given the installers had followed police advice the answer was a big fat ' zilch'!

We have had two other incidents.

In one a thief unwisely cut across our grounds after a local burglary,he was apprehended and convicted.

The only direct damage to our property,which involved nuisance vandalism, was a confrontation between a resident and a group of kids from the local High School. This remains unresolved. The Principal burned a disk of the incident fully recorded in color, but felt unable to act because the group, who could be clearly identified alibied each other, and the incident occurred during school hours. The kids should have been on the school premises, but record keeping of their attendance was 'inconclusive'. Of course, as to the confrontation with the resident, the cctv doesn't record sound!

In any case he informed us were the issue proven . his only appropriate sanction would be suspension , which would just let them legally out on the streets!

Big expenditure little return , and plenty of bureaucratic frustration sums up our experience.....better luck in your schools, but with the world awash with lawyers , don't hold your breath!


 
 

Bob T

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

April 5 2010, 9:21 PM 

Renee; I guess you overlooked the thread I started on your "Why The Anti's are Afraid of Cameras" blog post. We've been talking about it since you went on spring break. I thought you were ignoring it on purpose.

I agree you would have opposition from both sides. The teachers unions and the ACLU. It's a good idea but too 1984 for now.


 
 
American Way

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

April 5 2010, 9:46 PM 

I'm sick of bad brushing of lawyers and coaches second only to priests and popes. GETIT.

 
 

Another_Lurker

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

April 5 2010, 11:00 PM 

Hi Bob T. You say above:

Renee; I guess you overlooked the thread I started on your "Why The Anti's are Afraid of Cameras" blog post. We've been talking about it since you went on spring break. I thought you were ignoring it on purpose.

I have suspected for some time that Renee simply has a link to this thread and is unaware of the rest of the 'School Corporal Punishment' Forum.

In case that is so, Renee, here's a link to Bob T's thread on CCTV in the classroom and here's a link to the current index page of the Forum. In the many threads available on that and the 42 preceding index pages there is much to learnt about school CP! happy.gif

 
 
American Way

I BUCKED UP

April 6 2010, 5:29 AM 

Lawyers like some come in handy just as Dr Dominium found out when falsely accused. Everything supposedly confidential leaks even with the best of security and ends up on youtube. I do believe some teachers have privately instructed new teachers although teacher chatboard expunged the entire thread.

That certainly is a hell of a lot easier to believe than a video. I should have saved that thread and let our savvy readers of this estimable Forum opine on that matter. And that goes for some (I need not mention) knot heads who won't change their mind and fess up. My mind after talking to a very unlike ACLU lawyer friend has convinced me that cameras don't belong at any angle in the classroom. My wife is a coach amd my friend is a lawyer. And on their behalf as well as reflecting my low tolerance for INAUTHENTICITY teachers and principals (real or imagined) should be not be given more respect because of scurrilous stereotyped lawyers and coaches. sad.gifsad.gifsad.gifsad.gifsad.gifsad.gifsad.gifsad.gifsad.gifsad.gifsad.gifsad.gifsad.gifsad.gifsad.gifsad.gifsad.gifsad.gif

Quite frankly my best friend feels a professional witness would be less likely to get off on it. Children are minors and due to the sexual proclivities they could be exploited. Everything should not be kept like on a permanent record in perpetuity. like punishment books or carved names in paddles. As an employer I wouldn't want a paddled high school senior for some of their offense that might be repeated over so soon to the date he or she would enter the workforce.

Besides people have different definitions of brutality and different reactions to pain. Like rate, medium rare or well done roasted rumps for brutality scale. I was taught it wasn't a pretty site to watch someone cry. I wouldn't want my son or daughter to become Shorty and Nancy of Trutv. I wouldn't want my son to be Shorty period. I gained faced while bent over by a nazi nun however graded stick broadcasted over the public annoucement system at the expense of my ass. Mercifully she didn't put it through the who school's sound system. I BUCKED UP.

 
 
prof.n

Alabama mass paddling or joke?

April 6 2010, 3:48 PM 

I was alerted to this news story below which I thought might be of interest to this esteemed forum:


Here are a sample of reports and comments. Others abound.Health warning .Is it genuine or an April fools joke (look at the date of the story!) ??

Run the video on the first and see what you think. Friends of mine in the States have split opinions.

http://www.wpbf.com/news/23025672/detail.html

http://annistonstar.com/view/full_story/6892751/article-What-not-to-wear-?instance=home_lead_story

http://www.doublex.com/blog/xxfactor/getting-spanked-prom


Should it be true , seems if you want to dress slutty , take Dylans advice and

.. never goin down to Oxford Town.

If the story IS genuine does this mean back to the future is alive and well in Alabama?

 
 
prof.n

Alabama further comments.

April 6 2010, 4:02 PM 



Try this blog....as you will see this has not only gemnerated comment a plenty but the video has now got onto CNN.

http://jezebel.com/5508055/your-revealing-prom-dress-will-get-you-paddled

 
 

Bob T

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

April 6 2010, 4:48 PM 

It's things like this that make scp a bad idea. You never hear about what a wonderful experience a kid had growing up in a school that paddles. But you do hear about things like this quite often.

And I think it bears repeating that the strongest proponents of scp are people who were never paddled at school themselves.

 
 
willyeckaslike

teachers who paddle

April 6 2010, 5:49 PM 

Re Prom Dress

I cannot see what Erica is complaining about. To me the dress looks ok, she looks a very nice young lady in it. I can understand there is a dispute over whether it is suitable or not, But I do not make the school rules, the school does, so you either obey the rules or not. I cannot see what she is whinging on about seniors being given a choice for acting up. She was given a choice. Either being paddled or 3 days suspension, or of course, quite probably the unthinkable, to leave the prom. She chose 3 days suspension. If 17 other girls chose to be paddled I cannot see that it would be a particularly severe punishment, I think it would be more in the way of a warning

 
 
Renee (TWP Editor)

CAMERAS AND PROM DRESSES

April 6 2010, 9:39 PM 

Hello y'all:

One last point on cameras: Many school districts HAVE them on school buses -And student behavior on these buses has improved greatly. The A.C.L.U. must have backed off on that.

On Oxford, Alabama and the Prom Dress controversy, we at TWP are looking into it and will comment at our next post -Stay tuned!

Best Wishes,
Renee

 
 

Another_Lurker

Re: Alabama mass paddling or joke?

April 6 2010, 10:37 PM 

Nothing that happens in the US or in US schools surprises me. The paddling element gives the current case of an inappropriate prom dress a link to this estimable Forum if it is indeed (as it may well be) true.

However, this sort of nonsense is nothing new. Back in 2008 an unfortunate young lady was arrested and taken off campus in handcuffs for wearing the wrong type of dress to a Texas school prom. See this ABC news report and a ton more if you Google 'girl arrested for prom dress'. Although a mere male should never comment on feminine fashion except to be complimentary, I have to say that IMHO this girl was pushing the limits just a teeny touch! happy.gif

 
 
American Way

Sweet and Sour

April 6 2010, 11:10 PM 

A sweet story from American Way. It was in 1968 and the girls were wearing spaghetti strap prom gowns. It was the custom for the boys to drive their girl and visit the convent so the Sisters could ooh and aah about how handsome or beatiful we look. Some girls brought shawls to cover their bare shoulders only for the convent visit. The boy bought the ticket, rented a tuxedo and a bought a corsage. The idea being her dress would cost a king's ransom. Her parents snapped pictures of house when I came to pick her up. The prom ended on a sour note of involving my race described previously.

Our daughter collected prom dresses (rarely used after the event) and had an undocumented Latino who made money making alterations under the table recycle them for next year's prom for those who couldn't afford something other than off the rack Walmarts. We are proud to say that her initiative has become a tradition so scores of girls have benfited in subsequent years. Totally off topic but is the American Way to be proud.

 
 
prof.n

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

April 7 2010, 10:48 PM 

Hi Steve ,

I believe the original link was :

http://annistonstar.com/view/full_story/6892751/article-What-not-to-wear-?instance=home_lead_story

This is what I first was sent from the States which led to my earlier posts on the TWP link

 
 

Bob T

TWP's Latest Blog Post

April 10 2010, 4:29 PM 

Renee; there seems to be recurring theme with you paddlings. You get a hug after every paddling.

Not only did I get a lot of paddlings, I wittnessed quite a few also. Nobody (and I mean nobody) ever hugged the teacher or Principal afterward. Nor did I feel like hugging a teacher or anybody after being paddled. Almost without exception every kid I saw paddled was angry and in pain afterward.

Does your paddle have (Hug Me) stenciled on the side? Maybe you wear tight sweaters when you paddle. 

Oh, don't let me forget to ask, Do you take your high heels off before you swing the paddle?


 
 

Bob T

Talking?

April 10 2010, 5:44 PM 

One other thing I would like to ask Ms. Renee. What is with the talking between swats?  That was something you just did not do when I was at school. You were expected to bend over and take your licks and you better not move or you would get an extra swat. And there was no cuddling afterwards.

Teachers and especially Principals were more stern and maintained an air of personal detachment. Kind of like Doctors when they say "this might hurt a little" just before they do something that hurts like hell.

I think "Barbie" and "Cindy" might tell somewhat different accounts.


 
 
Renee (TWP Editor)

Come on, y'all

April 10 2010, 6:45 PM 

Hey Bob T.:

Whats with the high heels and sweater reference?

High heels? With as much time as I spend on my feet -Are you kidding?

As to my attire: Lets just say it is professional and I could easily pass for a bank loan officer. So, stop letting your imagination go haywire.

On hugs, not every paddling I have ever given ended with one. But I do make every effort to make sure the student I paddled has no hard feelings. I believe that has make a difference in my experiences.

Your own experiences have NO relevance as to how I carry out scp. (What happened to you occurred before I was even born!)

Regards,
Renee

 
 

Bob T

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

April 10 2010, 8:39 PM 

Rene; We have new member here at SCP "Will" is his name. He recounted a paddling he wittnessed and the teacher took off her heels before she swung her paddle.

You don't get my sense of humor obviously. BTW, where do you girls hang your halo's at night? You and the other girls make your paddlings sound so... benign! So full of love and kindness. Gag me with a spoon! Your stories fly in the face of every paddling I ever got and every story I was told about or wittnessed. I wonder if the girls you paddled feel the same way you do? I know how the one girl feels, she feels betrayed by her parents for Ok ing the swats.

And another thing. The one girl "Sharia?" of the two handed swats fame got 5 hard swats for fighting and you let these girls off with 3 moderate swats. What gives? Cheerleaders get special treatment?  Also, tell our new boy "Will" that Cheerleaders wear shorts under their cheerleader skirts. Not panties.

I know you have the zealot's like "the talking chair" breathing down your neck but really, you are spinning these accounts way out of preportion. I mean even the pro SCP brigade would have trouble believing the benignness of your paddling stories.

I have at least a dozen questions about how you would handle situations that could arise in your position. Maybe I can come up with a hypothetical scenario and see how you would handle it. If you are willing to try. How fair can you be?

 


 
 
prof.n

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

April 10 2010, 10:22 PM 

Hi Renee,

I posted a discursive response to you a little while ago on TWP regarding your new blog. Normally I understood these went via yourselves ,(they always have before), and you posted whcih and what you chose the next week space and taste /editorialpolicy permitting. I notice the one I sent today has posted directly on the blog. Has your system changed? The form appeared to have done so (indeed it had disappeared entirely this week to be replaced by the blue comment logo alone .

If you are making this a straight post non moderated forum please could you let us know ? It does affect the style etc in which I and maybe others would write .....this post for example is far too discursive(almost an essay) to post directly.Is this a policy change or a strange function of the system. If the former of course all the zealots could havbe a field day!

Apologies to this esteemd forum for this technical digression :no intention to break the flow of the thread ,

Thanks
Nev

 
 
prof.n

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

April 11 2010, 9:22 AM 

Hi Renee,

Either the system has returned to normal or you have manually adjusted it .....anyway thanks for whichever.

On the issue of ISS versus swats in High School, you might want to consider the very interesting chart reprinted by our own Dr. Dominum on the 'punishment must fit the crime ' thread , it can be found in an early morning (my time zone) post today (11th). Its obviously either UK or Australian in origin, but I didn't notice a reference, ( though he has referenced it, I think in previous posts). This is set up to illustrate gender differences, but the general points about the different perceptions by students of sanctions are, I feel, quite well made.

As it was produced to illustrate gender differences, it doesn't illustrate the issue of differing perceptions by sub sets within the groups , which of course, is my point. These differences are , generally I believe, typologically distinct, for example, if the student body is viewed using a Jungian type personality framework. Nonetheless the results are interesting.


Thanks again ,

Nev

 
 
Renee (TWP Editor)

Thank You Prof. N. & Bob T.

April 11 2010, 11:35 PM 

Hello y'all:

Thanks to both of you for the "Heads Up" on that sicko "Joe". Y'all are such gentlemen! We thought our settings would catch comments like Joe's -But evidently not. I got the warnings from both of y'all Sunday evening -Hey, we DO have families and lives of our own! As to "Joe", he sounded like he needs to get a life.

Prof. N., TWP WILL work on your I.S.S. questions for next week or the week after, depending on time and space.

Gotta get them hamburgers ready for the grill! (Sunday night cookout at Wendy's)

Regards,
Renee

 
 

Another_Lurker

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

April 12 2010, 12:49 AM 

In view of Prof. n's comments above, here for Renee is a direct link to Doctor Dominum's post containing the diagram of gender differences in attitudes to punishments. It would be interesting to hear how this relates to her own experience in US schools.

 
 
prof.n

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

April 13 2010, 12:30 AM 

Hi Another Lurker

Thanks for posting the link, it was helpful.

I admit I have no real reason for not doing so myself ,just pure laziness and /or technophobia !happy.gif

Actually my excuse was as it was Sunday I was hurrying to get ready to attend our local village Church , use it or lose it is the Church's rather 21st century motto round by us.Anyway I didnt want to keep people waiting as due to my accident we were car sharing, nor make them late. or should on this thread I say tardy? happy.gif

Of course the real answer is to get up earlier!!!!!!


Thanks again!

 
 

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

April 13 2010, 2:50 AM 

This post is in regards to Bob T's high heels and cheerleader undergarment post.

I'm sure the attire worn by teachers today is much different than what was worn in the early 80's when I was in school. Female teachers wore blouses, skirts, hose and heels. Male teachers wore suits or sportcoats, dress slacks and ties.

Again Bob, regarding cheerleader undergaments, at my school, spandex cheer briefs were worn, not shorts. I'm sure that has changed now and shorts are the norm.

Will

 
 

Bob T

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

April 13 2010, 7:13 AM 

Will; I wouldn't know what the norm is now. It was shorts when I was young enough to care what teenage cheerleaders wore.

 
 

Another_Lurker

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

April 13 2010, 10:10 PM 

Hi Prof.n. It struck me that as my previous link for Renee had apparently been helpful it might be useful to link the post you'd mentioned. No problem, as after a long period of extremely bad relations the Network54 search engine and I now appear to be the best of friends. happy.gif

The annoying thing is that for a recent post like that it shouldn't be necessary to use the search engine to get a URL, and certainly not to resort to desperate measures like getting up early to do so! happy.gif It is possible to derive the URL of any individual post from its date and time. However to do this you have to know the time to the second, and Network54 only displays it to the minute. sad.gif

 
 

Bob T

Tommy Toughguy

April 14 2010, 1:43 AM 

Hi Renee;

I know you and the girls at TWP hate using the paddle but aren't there some times when you were happy to sting somebodys bottom?

Let's suppose that a teacher brought a boy to you for bullying other kids. Stealing their money. Taking things away from them. Hitting in places where nobody sees the bruises. Just a generally bad actor. He finally is caught red handed by a teacher. No doubt about it. However, little Tommy Toughguy refuses to admit it. He is unrepentant. Rude to you and the teacher and he is disrespectful. Why? Because he has an opt out form from his parents on file.

So you check his file and lo and behold there is no opt out form in his folder. (Renee, if you don't have a big smile right now you are just not human.) So you go and break the bad news to Tommy T. He gets angry doesn't want to cooperate so you call his parents. They are 100% behind you on whatever you feel should be done.

Now be honest Renee tell me you are just happy as you could be at this point. This kid deserves everything he has coming to him.

Finally, you get him position for his paddling. You deliver the first swat. True to his name, Tommy Toughguy doesn't flinch, he turns around and says "you hit like a girl".

Now, you are only human Renee and you have full support from his parents. What do you do?

Something similar happened at my Military School. It could have gone very hard for Tommy T. but I'll tell you what happened after you tell me how you would handle it. You will get a nice laugh out of it.   


 
 
Renee (TWP Editor)

RE: Tommy Toughguy

April 14 2010, 2:35 AM 

Hello Bob T.:

First thing, as a classroom teacher, my kids were 8 to 9 years old and none of them ever showed me that sort of defiance. But continuous lying to Wendy and her principal cost a 5th grader a hard 5 swat paddling recounted in post WENDY'S WORST(?) PADDLING. The ironic part was that if the 5th grader had only 'fessed up -He would have only missed a few recesses and that Wendy had sought to find another punishment besides paddling although unsuccessfully.

We at TWP have NO pleasure in giving paddling and regard it as a necessary evil. The most I have ever felt was a sense of satisfaction that justice was done. (See 2nd link) But if I ever feel "happy" about it, it will be time for me to look for another line of work.

Hey, these kids that we paddle -We still have to educate them too!

Regards,
Renee

http://teacherswhopaddle.wordpress.com/2008/10/page/2/

http://teacherswhopaddle.wordpress.com/2009/07/

 
 

Bob T

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

April 14 2010, 11:31 AM 

Renee; I had already read Wendy's first paddling post. I guess you really are a sweetheart Renee. I did think you are a middle school assisstant principal now. So you deal with young 12-14 year olds.

The teacher at military school responded," you're right. that was a wimpy swat. I think I want a do over. Bend back over." The rest of the class got a laugh out of it.


 
 

Bob T

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

April 14 2010, 7:30 PM 

Renee; I went back and re-read your response and I noticed you said Wendy's "worst paddling"  rather than "first".

Up until now I have agreed with most of your paddlings. Same stuff they paddled for back when I was in school.

First problem I have with Wendy's "worst" is the word used. ASS is in the Bible. It is short for Jackass. Both meaning Donkey. It is NOT a swear word.

And yes I realise he was paddled for lying not for swearing. But it would never have happened if you weren't so right wing conservative religous zealots.

WHO IN THIS DAY AND AGE SAYS "ASS" IS A SWEAR WORD? My God what is wrong with you people?

If he had said the MF word or added HOLE to ASS then and only then does it become a swear word.

So now the poor kid is so scared he's going to get paddled that he trys to lie his way out of it. He had probably heard that "that's my story and I'm sticking to it "song on the radio and took it to heart.

So first Wendy scares him into lying and then she gives him the worst beating of his life for something she caused.

You people can not be trusted with a paddle in your hands. If she had done that to my son at least three lives would have been ruined because I would have killed her and then my son would no longer have any parents.

You make stupid rules so you can use it as an excuse to use the paddle.

You are a pretty good spin doctor Renee. You should be a political pundit on tv. You almost had me convinced you were OK.


 
 
American Way

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

April 14 2010, 8:35 PM 

Bob T. OTT on your part IMHO. It's like you claim common ground and then slip the carpet underneath them. Face it we've had bad experiences and could enter into a contests. Rarer now then before but how rare is it to be worth keeping as bad pam or Pamela Ann in the tru tv thread. I'll copy and paste her comments if you would like me to. Renee certainly has a reasonable position as bad pam does and both sides are wortgh considering.

Bob T TWP learned by their mistakes. They wrongly paddled a child and rectified it as best they could and changed the way they assessed hearsay. It's a conscience call if due deliberation is exercised when administering any kind of punishment but corporal punishment you cannot take back. In sentence hearings there is a fine line between vengeance and serving justice. It's easier to say it didn't play a part than to keep it from playing a part if we're human. Bob T you and I have more in common then those who have only been in their mind rightly paddled who haven't experienced the sight of a teacher who enjoyed more than a sense of justice being served. Revenge is a dish best served cold. I've been taken to task for using a more juridical approach (longest thread in the history of this estimable Forum) Uneasy About Matrices started by Alan Turing who I hold in highest esteem.

The state does have the good sense of delineating between juvenile and adult court but that starts at 17 about second semester junior year by rule of thumb in many states and that's when a child is too old to be paddled IMHO. To have an impact on a child that size (I recognize that's subjective) by nature the severity may approach imprudence even when younger. It'a like how do you spank a porcupine? The closer to an Athenian democracy is when you have an informed elctorate where input is welcomed and valued by all. That doesn't happen at state capitols. That's where Paula Flowe gets more bang for the buck as she does with the media furthest from the situation where her financial base is. Say what you want about paddling where else would you find this kind of discussion? Renee et al are not hiding for no reason.

 
 
American Way

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

April 14 2010, 11:53 PM 

It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried. Winston Churchill

Behind the scene debate on school corporal punishment by local community

 
 
Renee (TWP Editor)

?????????

April 15 2010, 2:35 AM 

Hey Bob T.:

Are you losing it or did some space aliens kidnap your brains?

As to Wendy's "WORST PADDLING", Mike had only to 'fess up and there would be NO paddling. Wendy sought input from our principal and was RELIEVED that "ASS" was not a vulgar word which merited a paddling as 1st resort. When told the consequences would NOT be severe if he owned up, Mike just continued to lie to everyone. As a result, Mike got 5 swats instead of a few recess sit ins from a ticked off Wendy. And even then, when Mike's mom dropped by the next day asking about a red rear end, Wendy could have got Mike into MORE trouble but chose not to. (I believe Mike's mom is an "old school" type parent -If you know what I mean!)

On the WENDY'S MISTAKE paddling, that nearly cost us a very good teacher because Wendy almost left teaching altogether over it. She will always hurt a little over that and asks me about Shad, a middle schooler, almost every other week. I think she will return to teaching this Fall after finishing maternity leave but I'm not 100%.

Actually, the only people who need "fear" Wendy are bullies and liars. In our next post, Wendy will talk about herself and her growing up experiences. Don't miss it!

Regards,
Renee

 
 

Bob T

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

April 15 2010, 3:22 AM 

Good find AW. Chalk another one up for the good guys. Paddles should have been abolished along with slavery back in 1862-63. They are the most vicious impliment ever invented for corporal punishment. Not even the prisons would use them. They used straps until those were outlawed.

I almost lost sight of a very plain and simple fact. Teachers who don't like CP don't use it. Period. They don't own a paddle. I know because even in Military School there were a couple of teachers who did not use it.

If a teacher owns a paddle they plan on using it. Plain and simple. If they really hated using it, they wouldn't even own one. I started buying into Renee's lies about SCP and how things have changed. Well the only reason things have changed is because now SCP use is under scrutiny where as in my school days it was not. If it were not for people like Paula Flowe looking over their shoulder things would be just like they always were. Teacher and Principals would be beating our kids black and blue for things like chewing gum in class or or wearing a hat indoors.

TWP is mostly Propaganda and the rest is for passing along tips on how "not to get caught". They warn each other about how to avoid legal action for what they do and fight against abolishment. They know what they are doing is something any other person would be arrested for. But they hide behind the en loco parentis like cowards and bullies. If I were to beat my son the way "Wendy" did I would be arrested. And all over the word ASS.

What the hell is a BAD WORD anyway. How can a word be good or bad? Some words can be deemed vulgar but it depends on what context they are used in. Wendy never got that far. She was too quick to zero in on something else that she caused and manufactured so she could justify giving this kid a beating he will never forget for the rest of his life.

She scared the hell out of him over the word "ASS" so he lied to try to avoid a beating. So what did she do? She beat the hell out of him for being scared of a teacher who freely admits she has a reputation as a "HARD PADDLER".

The more I think about it the angrier I get. That poor kid will have that nightmare in his memory for the rest of his life. If you don't believe that's true, ask any of the older gentlemen who visit this esteemed forum if they remember getting a dose of SCP in school. They remember it like it was yesterday and it is not a pleasant memory.

Why is it legal for a teacher to beat our kids black and blue for such insignificant BS and anybody else would be thrown in prison?

Doesn't anybody see something wrong with this?

 

If I were King for a day I would order that all teachers and Admins who wanted the option of using CP be required to take 5 swats themselves every September most would thow away their paddles first. We could make a bonfire so big we would need to call out the National Guard to put it out.

They are all a bunch of cowards. They can dish it out but they can't take it.

 When we finally get SCP abolished nation wide I will drink a toast. Something I do not do. Ever.                        


 
 

Bob T

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

April 15 2010, 10:00 AM 

Nice try Renee; The spin won't work this time. Wendy caused that whole thing. The poor kid was so scared he was going to get paddled that he tried to lie his way out of it. So what does she do? She makes his worst nightmare come true.

How do you know those four kids didn't conspire against him? Unlikely, but still possible. But the fact remains the reason he lied was because he was scared. Scared of her and her paddle.

You people make me sick. You will do or say anything to justify beating our kids into submission.

What if he simply refused to answer? That's what my son is instructed to do. I suppose that would make Wendy even madder. I saw she turned into a Nazi Interrogator and when she didn't get what she wanted she beat the hell out of him.

But he knew his goose was cooked the minute she walked over there and those kids pointed a finger at him. They just wanted to see him get in trouble. Kids that age are mean that way. I would have hunted them down one by one after school and made sure they showed up to school with a black eye. It sends a message too. Just like your paddle. After all that is the message you send. If you don't like what somebody does you hit them with a piece of wood. Sounds appropriate to me.

Wendy needs to find a new profession.


 
 
prof.n

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

April 16 2010, 1:32 AM 

Hi Bob,

Well your view on all forms of corporal punishment and the teachers who implement it is plain to see and your reasoning, but one thing I didn't follow :

You say :
What if he simply refused to answer? That's what my son is instructed to do. I suppose that would make Wendy even madder. I saw she turned into a Nazi Interrogator and when she didn't get what she wanted she beat the hell out of him.

Do you mean you would always instruct your son to refuse to answer questions regarding his conduct in general or just if facing a paddling? (I assume not the latter as you would with your views naturally choose education which at all costs avoided the possibility of corporal punishment of any nature).

I dont know what would happen in schools in your area, but I know at my old school , both in my day and indeed the current day the response would be immediate suspension. Even in my day when the cane was available , it would have been suspension followed by expulsion . Why? Because a school runs on the basis of the mutual acceptance of rules of conduct . Central to that is the notion that a student accepts that he/she is answerable to the teachers in the establishment that type of what in my day would have been termed 'dumb insolence' would have been interpreted as refusal to accept the responsibility to account to authority for actions under the aegis of the school, and as such he/she would have been deemed to have voluntarily excluded himself/herself from the school.

Given that in the States matters are more formally regulated through student regulations/ disciplinary codes, I would have thought that this was probably more clearly spelled out there than in Britain. After all the purpose of the student code is surely to define the areas over which the school claims legitimacy.

I couldn't see whether your problem was just that the teacher in this instance might paddle , which obviously you wouldn't accept, but of course a situation which would never occur as you would have 'opted out' ; or is the problem a more general one in which you dont believe the school has any right to expect a child to account for his/her alleged actions? In other words a general rejection of the in loco parentis doctrine.

Also you've said what punishments you see as barbaric in a school, but not which you would favour. for example ISS? or detention,? lines? or positive discipline? Again it would be interesting to know because it would give a rounded picture of your view.Many of these have their own inherent features which, whilst more drawn out can be equally unpleasant as potentially as damaging psychologically every bit as much as cp if used to excess

Finally , I know this is an emotive subject for you , given your history which you've outlined, but I do think the term Nazi applied to Wendy is excessive. I have a particular issue myself about this having lost , long before my birth a number of potentially close family members to the excesses of the Third Reich, and the Second World War , including one member who was working behind enemy lines and was tortured and killed by the Gestapo,( Note I wont say murdered : he knew if caught the consequences of his actions , and chose to go willingly ) .

I therefore believe the word Nazi should be used fairly precisely and specifically to recognise a particular type of state and social organisation and not just general authoritarianism, which I guess is the point you wanted to make.

A state which , of course , would certainly deny this forum the right to exist , and deny you or I, at the very least, the right of free expression.



 
 
American Way

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

April 16 2010, 6:04 AM 

Bob T: If I didn't perceive the nun to be a Nazi (granted OTT) I would not have swallowed my cry thinking only of giving name, rank and serial number. There is no delusional or romantic conceptualization for us as there are in others. A monster is a monster to a child when unfairly and harshly paddled. I don't put Wendy into that category by a long shot. We are not on the scene so in fairness it might be wise to tone down the rhetoric. Soul wounded we look through a prism that should not be dismissed but always considered. More than a few have experienced this and it isn't safe to presume that it is never or even rarely happening.

 
 

Bob T

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

April 16 2010, 2:57 PM 

Prof N and AW; My son is instructed to exercise his 5th ammendment right at all times. He shouls never answer ANY incriminating questions without a an attorney present.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4097602514885833865&hl=en#

Why should teachers who use intimidating interrogation techniques be treated any different than the police? I come from a time when if the Principal was involved you were already convicted weather you said anything or not. That kid was already convicted before he said anything. He knew that. That is why he felt his only chance was to deny everything.  I know exactly how he felt.

Let's not forget we only have one side of the story and TWP is a Propoganda machine for the pro cp brigade.

I know this forum has shifted over to the right. It's too bad we don't hear from more of the ex William Penn students these days.

 


 
 
American Way

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

April 16 2010, 6:59 PM 

Rush to judgment is a big mistake when it comes to an irreversible wrong paddling. Letting students be heard means a lot to anyone who has been paddled just for getting underneath a teachers skin. Justice delayed is better than justice denied. Giving a student a time to appeal and a form to help organize the appeal (repeated for the 4th time if wanted) to a disnterested forum shows the student (win or lose) their side of the story matters. It's that side that's stick with them. The form I provided helps the student act as his or her own advocate.

Lawyers are invited into the school when things like expulsion and long term suspensions are levied due to violations that break both the student code and civil laws. Weapons and drugs and things of this nature included.

Those who have had only favorable experiences worst case scenario is a wait. I for one do not believe that the slate is clean after being punsished. It's gather up the usual suspects. In a trial your previous record is not told to the jury.

 
 
Dean Osborne

Hooray for Temple Texas

April 17 2010, 12:57 AM 

Just ran across this latest new report today on Yahoo News.

Texas city revives paddling as it takes a swat at misbehavior


Texas has bucked a national trend toward eliminating corporal punishment in schools. (Tom Fox/Dallas Morning News)


By Michael Birnbaum
Washington Post Staff Writer
Friday, April 16, 2010

TEMPLE, TEX. -- In an era when students talk back to teachers, skip class and wear ever-more-risque clothing to school, one central Texas city has hit upon a deceptively simple solution: Bring back the paddle.
THIS STORY
In Texas, reviving the paddle as teaching tool
Answer Sheet: Why paddling is a bad idea
User poll: Should paddling be allowed in schools?
View All Items in This Story
Most school districts across the country banned paddling of students long ago. Texas sat that trend out. Nearly a quarter of the estimated 225,000 students who received corporal punishment nationwide in 2006, the latest figures available, were from the Lone Star State.
But even by Texas standards, Temple is unusual. The city, a compact railroad hub of 60,000 people, banned the practice and then revived it at the demand of parents who longed for the orderly schools of yesteryear. Without paddling, "there were no consequences for kids," said Steve Wright, who runs a construction business and is Temple's school board president.
Since paddling was brought back to the city's 14 schools by a unanimous board vote in May, behavior at Temple's single high school has changed dramatically, Wright said, even though only one student in the school system has been paddled.
"The discipline problem is much better than it's been in years," Wright said, something he attributed to the new punishment and to other discipline programs schools are trying. Residents of the city's comfortable homes, most of which sport neighborly, worn chairs out front, praise the change.
"There are times when maybe a good crack might not be a bad idea," said Robert Pippin, a custom home builder who sports a goatee and cowboy boots. His son graduated from Temple schools several years ago.
Corporal punishment remains legal in 20 states, mostly in the South, but its use is diminishing. Ohio ended it last year, and a movement for a federal ban is afoot. A House subcommittee held a hearing on the practice Thursday, and its chairman, Rep. Carolyn McCarthy (D-N.Y.), is gearing up for a push to end the practice once and for all. She plans to introduce legislation within weeks.
"When you look that the federal government has outlawed physical punishment in prisons, I think the time has come that we should do it in schools," she said.
A joint American Civil Liberties Union-Human Rights Watch report last year found that students with disabilities were disproportionately subjected to corporal punishment, sometimes in direct response to behavioral problems that were a result of their disabilities. Many educators and psychologists say that positive tools, such as giving praise for good behavior and withholding it for bad, are far more effective for discouraging misbehavior.
Those techniques "encourage them to behave well in the future," said report author Alice Farmer. Paddling "makes students lose respect for their teachers."
Rules about paddling vary from district to district, but typically only administrators, not teachers, can mete out the punishment, which is done in private. Usually, a long, flat wooden paddle is used to give as many as three blows across the student's clothed rear end, although Farmer found students who had been hit many more times. Boys are overwhelmingly the target.
Not everybody in Texas is gung-ho about paddling. The practice has been banned in the state's big cities, and its use varies from campus to campus in districts that allow it.
In Alvin, a formerly agricultural city of 23,000 that has been swallowed by Houston's suburbs in the past decade, the policy is on the books but not used in many schools.
"I don't think it's that simple anymore," said Terry Constantine, who added that she hasn't swung a paddle in her 16 years as an elementary school principal there. "We look for our parents to work with us now."
At Alvin High School, where the technique is used, Principal Kevon Wells said he had paddled students about six times this school year. If a student continued to misbehave, he said, he wouldn't do it again. "I'm not into beating kids," he said.
But in Temple, a city just outside Fort Hood that shakes with the air horns of the trains that pass through its rail yards, many residents say they hope that the old-fashioned solution can address what they see as rising disrespect among youth. They say their discipline problems aren't different from those in any other school system in the country: students showing up late for class, or violating the dress code, or talking during lessons. Those habits were unheard of in the days when schoolteachers routinely swung a paddle, they say.
"Back then, you wouldn't throw spitballs, because you were afraid of the consequences," said Darr Kuykendall, a worker for a plumbing supply company.
"A lot of kids have tempers," said Abby Jones, a junior at Temple High School. "Those kids that would be paddled would think of it as a threat . . . and maybe would be better."
Parents also pushed for the change because many paddle their children at home and wanted consistent discipline in the classroom, said John Hancock, assistant superintendent of administration for the Temple schools, who has been an educator for more than 40 years.
"We're rural central Texas. We're very well educated, but still there are those core values. Churches are full on Sundays," Hancock said. "This is a tool we'd like in the toolbox for responding to discipline issues."
Hancock, an urbane, sturdily built Colorado native who wears horn-rimmed glasses, said the school system had banned corporal punishment about six years ago because a state law change made what was permissible uncertain. Follow-up made clear that schools could paddle, he said.
Since the policy was changed in May, the school system has paddled only one student, and that was at the request of his parent, Hancock said.
Many districts, including Temple, which is nearly evenly divided among white, black and Hispanic students, require parental consent before the punishment is given. Temple also requires the student's consent, Hancock said, and the punishment is considered equivalent to an out-of-school suspension.
Residents said restoring paddling is less about the punishment and more about the threat.
"It's like speeding," said Bill Woodward, a graphic designer. "Are they going to give you a speeding ticket, or . . . a warning? I'd speed all day if I knew it was going to be a warning."

 
 
Renee (TWP Editor)

Help Needed

April 17 2010, 2:31 AM 

To site manager:

I submitted a lengthy response but on Thursday afternoon. Where is it? When will it be posted?

Thanks in advance,
Renee

 
 
Site Manager

RE: Help Needed

April 17 2010, 5:52 AM 

Hello Renee!

No such response has been received by us. I do hope you will be able to resubmit it.

If you were to acquire a Network54 log-in, as suggested in the 'FAO Renee' thread further down this page, your contributions to our Happy Circle would appear on the board without delay. You would need to send a message entitled 'Test' to the 'FAO Renee' thread for us to be able to set this up.

 
 

Bob T

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

April 17 2010, 3:07 PM 

Hi Renee; We have all lost long passionate replies. Murphy's Law is in full effect. The more passionate and well thought out your response the more likely Network54 is to lose it. Some of my best replies have been lost in cyber space.

If you see your post is going to be long or starts getting long copy it into Word  or someplace where you can copy and paste it if it gets lost. Besides you may want to write a book some day.


 
 

Bob T

Put your money where your mouth is.

April 17 2010, 3:34 PM 

After reading the article posted by Dean Osborne I looked up the phone # for Rep. Carolyn McCarthy (D-N.Y.). I called her office to commend her on her initiative and ended up being cajoled into making a sizable donation to her cause. I really can't think of a better cause to support. If it helps her stay in office then maybe we end this once and for all.

 
 
American Way

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

April 17 2010, 5:27 PM 

REGULAR MEETING OF THE BOARD OF TRUSTEES

TEMPLE INDEPENDENT SCHOOL DISTRICT

September 14, 2009

Paula Flowe Temple Texas Agenda

Mrs. Paula Flowe, San Jose, CA spoke on behalf of the organization The Hitting Stops Here and questioned why the district re-instated corporal punishment in Temple ISD stating we have gone backwards.

Renee: You will be happy to know Paula Flowe came to Temple TX from San Jose CA to address the proper forum; this is something that I am all in favor of. She didn't pay her airfare to Temple TX and knew corporal punishment was on the agenda. Everywhere one has a say but the final decision should be in the hands of the locals who are more likely to be acting in loco parentis. Any national ban on CP has to go through the Congress and that's the hardest body to pass legislation. Even if it passes it would be appealed up to the Supreme Court. I would have no problem if Supreme Court upheld the ban or maintained the status quo of 1973 decision, sure I would be disappointed, for although my position has evolved to Pamela Ann aka bad pam c.f. tru tv comments on Nancy paddling. Coincidently, the name of the girl I took to the senior prom. If only I was all white but I digress. happy.gif

The people vote for the president; the president nominates the Justice; the Senate with two to each state, voted by the 50 states including those permitting CP, confirms the nominee when 60 vote in favor. Abortion position is high on the list and CP is so low it is too insignificant to be brought up at a confirmation hearing. I noted the last nominee was a product of a time when New York City public schools banned CP while she was subject to CP. Someone was called to the office forty years ago in her Catholic school that she credits for her rise from poverty. She favored the strict discipline but not necessarily the corporal punishment component. This was previously mentioned under the Supreme Court thread but may bear repeating now that another member has resigned.

Bottom line is you hear the word people more and not just the name of the anti-CP zealot top gun, our very own and my only (please enlighten me???) fellow honoree, Paula Flowe. Bob T I don't consider Renee a pro-CP zealot but someone who is fighting to preserve the cultural traditions of the southeast. She doesn't spend her time flying from board meeting to board meeting; thankfully she has the time to respond and bear patiently with her harshest critics. You and Renee have a life and a lively exchange that Renee may understandably stop responding to as I have on occasion has done with people I feel I'm wasting my time on.

 
 
prof.n

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

April 17 2010, 5:48 PM 

Hi Bob T

Many thanks for your reply which made things clear.

The great difference between Britain and the US is simply this . The British law allows schools to act in loco parentis and neither gives 5th amendments rights in the sense you understand them , or allows lawyers access to school grounds and property except with the express permission of the local authorities/ governors or their representatives depending on school type.

In Britain the authority of the teachers and particularly the Head is guarded carefully by both the lea's and the law. In my day , for example there was a notice on the gates of my primary school ' Parents not allowed past this point without an appointment ( by order of the local education authority).' Today that would be modified but, and this is the rub, if you enroll your child in school you are required to accept the authority of the teachers over him/her, which would include effectively ceding your parental rights to them to question him/her.

Unless you were prepared to do this by acceding to the school enrollment requirements your child would probably have to be home educated. . Certainly I don't know a single school Head in England , and I know a fair cross section who would , except in the case of criminal proceedings when different laws apply, agree to having a lawyer present at interview for a school code based offense Maybe others do?

I don't know what Renee's view would be if a lawyer turned up on campus to act for a kid facing a paddling either......although I see you would understand it as his constitutional right Does it ever happen ? I've seen lawyers get involved after punishment , indeed some of you may have seen the free advice offers posted by some education lawyers for the girls at Oxford High, but I'd be interested to know if anyone has got the courts involved at an earlier stage

The other half of my question of course doesn't apply . But as I see it there are downsides and stressors etc involved in ISS, detention , lines, or even positive discipline ( though the negative effects here may often be on other kids in class) . Which is the most effective punishment is a question that can only really be answered in a given case and if you either know the psychological profile , or know the kid well enough as an individual. For example in my own case I was an intelligent and somewhat hyperactive child. I don't know how I would have survived what I understand as ISS. A three hour Saturday detention was absolute purgatory- I used to beg for an essay to relieve the boredom!!!

Finally I'm afraid to disappoint, but I'm far from a right wing conservative. Indeed as those who know me would attest I cut my political teeth on campus protest and occupation .

To describe my philosophical position is easy in Britain, difficult ( as I've found out many times) in the US. In Britain I would be seen as a slightly conservative liberal. That means liberal and quite radical on some social and economic policy with countervailing conservative ethical/moral tendencies. What that makes me Stateside!!!!!!!!!I believe in freedom of choice , but not in the heavy hand of State legislation unless all else fails.

As I've said before of my school and campus days:

'With a soldier's stance I aimed my hand
at the mongrel dogs that teach
fearing not I'd become my enemy in the instant that I preached....
my existence led by confusion boats ,
mutiny from stem to bow
but I was so much older then.
I'm younger than that now'

(My back pages : Bob Dylan)


Luckily in my High School years( to use your terminology )my teachers were a patient bunch, and treated me well ; probably better than I deserved. When they did punish it was controlled and not abusive. They did, however, usually get their point across.

University staff also , to the extent that for my career I was made an offer and joined them .

In that respect I have been just , I guess , very lucky.Which in no way , of course, detracts from the experiences of those who were not .

 
 

Bob T

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

April 18 2010, 12:07 AM 

Thank you ProfN; I understand your position and I am sure I will get a dressing down from Renee as well. However, look at what happened to Martha Stewart. Almost the same thing that happened to Wendy's "victim". They were unable to convict her for insider trading so they convicted her for lying to the police (FBI, SEC,etc.). If she had just refused to answer any questions she would not have gotten her own Paddling so to speak.

So my point is that if they can't get you to make a confession they will paddle for something else like lying. That whole thing was B***S***! The kid used the word ASS. Wendy made a mountain out of a molehill and then gave the kid a beating he will never forget as long as he lives. If you don't believe that you can walk up to any 90 year old man and ask him for he received CP at school and I'll bet he can tell you all the details.

It is something that should never happen to another child ever.

BTW, cp was banned here locally years ago. My son will never be subjected to that brutality. He is a very well behaved and self disciplined kid and nobody ever had to beat him for anything.


 
 
American Way

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

April 18 2010, 12:58 AM 

Bob T: New Jersey does not have corporal punishment but they are vigilant in defending the law. It would be nice if everyone played sports fairly and there was no need for referees. After you tear the diplomas of privileges like doctors, clergy, principals and teachers they are all subject to laws including, of course, lawyers no matter their attire. When Dr Dominum was falsely accused he had recourse to a lawyer a solicitor to represent him. Bob T our memories of the seventies are not romanticized. Some long for a day where the unrestricted authority of the teacher reigns. Too many of them make asses of themselves. How often must child forgive seven times? Forty years ago people could sing "Everything is Beautiful" but let's be real.

http://www.edlawcenter.org/ELCPublic/Publications/PDF/StudentDisciplineRights_Guide.pdf

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7NBfIhToFAI

student stabbed seven time by teacher

 
 

Bob T

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

April 18 2010, 2:07 AM 

Good link AW; Every state should have an agency like ELC. It would put an end to a lot of these stupid rules they use to paddle kids.

 
 
Renee (TWP Editor)

Thank You Prof. N. & HEADS UP!

April 18 2010, 2:50 AM 

Hello y'all:

Thanks a MILLION, Prof. N. for the tip on the Prom Dress story! It proves what we at TWP have akways known: The antis really do not care about honesty in their cause.

Everyone check out our revisions on the most recent post -We do not do that often but had to this time.

Bob T.: You are all "wet" on American History (The Civil War and slavery ended in 1865, not 1862) and flogging has to be 100x worse than any paddling!

As for Wendy, she was RELIVED when the principal told her "ass" was not a paddling offense. If Mike had said nothing, he would have sat out a few recesses but the lying resulted in a paddling.

Finally, up until then, Wendy had paddled 3 boys in her career -All bullies. Bullies are the ones who should "fear" Wendy and rightfully so!

Regards,
Renee


 
 
Renee (TWP Editor)

ADDITIONAL

April 18 2010, 3:06 AM 

One more thing:

Students do NOT have the "right to remain silent" in the school environment -Unlike the U.S. criminal justice system. We educators CAN determine guilt by a student refusing to answer a question.

Since all the other kids fingered Mike AND that Wendy did overhear a "latenight talkshow" word: Mike was already in trouble but to Wendy's relief, no paddling was needed for "ass".

But instead of saying nothing, Mike lied about it and was paddled for LYING.

Bob, I hope you didn't do that on your 1040 tax form. People go to jail for that. Not having a "lying" habit is a good thing.

Regards Again,
Renee

 
 

Bob T

Re: Teachers Who Paddle

April 18 2010, 9:20 AM 

My Dear Renee; History is not your subject. The Emancipation Proclamation was ordered by Lincoln first in Sept. 1862 and again in Jan. 1863. That is why I wrote 1862-1863 in my earlier post.

We can agree that bullies are not to be tolerated. I have a lot of experience with bullies. Not that they bullied me (at least not for more than a minute or two). They bullied my older brother. It was my job to help my brother or I got a whipping when I got home. My brother is two years older. So were his bullies. I got pretty tough after awhile.

However Wendy caused that entire problem. She should have let the word go. It was no big deal. She turned it into a big deal and the poor kid had to take a beating that he will never forget for the rest of his life.

And yes I do believe you would beat a confession out of a kid who remained silent. School paddles were made for threats, fear, and intimidation. And Wendy's rep for being a hard paddler intimidated that kid into lying so he wouldn't get a beating but he was going to get a paddling no matter what.

It concerns me even more that you and especially Wendy are proud of your actions that day. Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.