My first proper job was in the civil service, in the Cabinet Office in Whitehall in the late 70s just about the time Mrs Thatcher was elected as Prime Minister.

A few doors away from my office there was a lovely lady who used to come into my office for tea and a gossip a couple of times a day. She was from Guyana and basically white though she had a Guyanese accent( I am trying to describe her , not being racist ). She was a personal secretary to a senior civil servant, an actual "Sir" ( His son is a senior Conservative MP), and about 20 years older than me.

One of her first jobs was as a personal secretary to Lord Hailsham ( then Quintin Hogg) who was then a Minister of State in the early 60s.She often used to relate a story of how another senior civil servant had made some huge error and was going to see the Minister to explain himself, and said " I'd better pad up" indicating that he was putting something down his trousers. She used to tell this story and do the motions of "padding up" A big turn on.

She often used to relate this story , so I imagine she was a closet spanking enthusiast. I was tempted to give her lovely bottom a smack many times but never dared to. A very beautiful lady whose sister was Miss Guyana in the late 50s and took part in Miss Universe in Los Angeles.

A great story, Declan, and direct from the fabled 'Corridors of Power'! I've only one question. What on earth are you doing up at 02:03? That's a time when normally in the UK only Lurkers and their ilk are afoot!

Not sure why I am up at this time. Never mind. There was another girl, junior to me in the same office, and I did give her bottom a smack once, well a few times. Her response to one of these smacks was " That was corporal punishment"

Both her and the lovely Guyanese lady lived in Streatham not far from that madam whose name escapes me, she was jailed for running a brothel.

Hi Declan, you say:

not far from that madam whose name escapes me, she was jailed for running a brothel.

Ah, that would be the famous 'Luncheon Vouchers' case, Cynthia Payne, sent down for 6 months in 1980.

Not a case of superior memory, I'm sad to say! A quick google of streatham madame brothel jailed led me to this 2003 article in the Independent, where you'll find the reference about half way down.

I seem to recall that Ms Payne had special terms for OAPs and used a ticket queueing system to ensure that her disorderly house wasn't.

You are either a very lucky man Declan, or, more likely, you possess that vital 'something' in the spanking field that I lack. I had substantial numbers of very attractive young women working for me at various stages in my career, some of whom would certainly have merited a spanking on disciplinary grounds alone, but I can be absolutely sure what would have become of said career if I'd so much as patted one of them on the bottom!

A_L

I have always found it difficult to decide whether or not to smack the female bottom, but I am sure my judgment has almost always been correct. Only yesterday I came across a lovely barmaid from my local in Boot's, and was sorely tempted to give her bottom a smack,as she was bending over, but decided not to. She was with her 10 year old sister, and it would have been inappropriate. I gave her a tap on the shoulder instead, but I hope to give her a smack whilst she is at the pub.She wears the tightest black trousers and has an amazing behind.

The younger girl from Streatham I mentioned once said that she had received " leg slaps" at school. These consisted of having her skirt pulled up and getting a smacking on her thigh. Sounds very painful. The Guyanese lady, who was awarded the MBE when she retired, told us of her husband getting the strap at school , but not of her own experiences of CP.

My friend from Aberdeen has sent me a very abusive message, albeit in jest,as I have failed to post my photo on Facebook as I promised. I think I will send her a message threatening a good spanking.

Hi Declan. Your judgement in matters of smacking the female posterior must certainly have been immaculate, or you'd have been arrested by now! The barmaid with the tight black trousers seems to bear a charmed life, but doubtless retribution, or rather the palm of your hand, will overtake her one day. Just make sure that she hasn't got a large and aggressive husband or boyfriend first though. As one of the few active contributors here at present it would be very sad to lose you!

You say:

The younger girl from Streatham I mentioned once said that she had received "leg slaps" at school. These consisted of having her skirt pulled up and getting a smacking on her thigh. Sounds very painful.
It certainly was as a little lad of seven, when I was quite mortified to get the same treatment from a young lady teacher in front of a class of older children. No skirts involved though - little lads all wore rather baggy shorts in those days which permitted pretty much the same technique.

And you also say:

My friend from Aberdeen has sent me a very abusive message, albeit in jest,as I have failed to post my photo on Facebook as I promised. I think I will send her a message threatening a good spanking.

Yep, that sounds like a good response! Should elicit some feed-back from her if she does have an interest in the subject of this estimable Forum! On a more serious note I'm sure that you're careful what you put on Facebook if it is under your own name. Many employers and other agencies, especially the media, routinely check for Facebook entries if they are looking for information on someone.

A_L

I do have a fairly good idea of when to spank or not to spank. As a drunken teenager I may have made a couple of misjudgments but only once at work did I smack a bottom which was unwelcome, and even she was laughing about it the following day.

I did have to discipline two girls once for making false claims for flexi time. They were switching their cards between them and gaining about 30 minutes a day. One of the girls was very upset about it as I ordered her to make up the time by in effect, giving her a detention. She was in tears for ages and it was fortunate that the other girl confirmed to the others in the office that I had not done anything to really upset her. It would have been easier to slipper them, but not the thing for 25 year old married women!

I have yet to contact the Aberdeen lady again , but as you say you have to be careful about what you put on Facebook. She puts the daftest things on there, and with frequent spelling errors. Her pupils can see everything she writes. I am always very careful about this and hardly ever use the site.

My old school friend has been on and the good news is that she is organising a reunion. We are meeting up in a couple of days at the pub with the barmaid with the sensationaly tightly trousered bottom.I won't be smacking her bottom that day.

Great win for Forest today, though I guess you are not a Footie fan. At least I support the club of my home town unlike others on this site.( smiley face )

DECLAN

I think you should have given both those girls a sound spanking.

I'm sure, if flexi-cards were involved, it might have been some while before political correctness stopped it being suitable.

Oh & the footie-I was actually born equidistant in Camberwell from Millwall(for whom one of Mum's cousins played), Charlton or Crystal Palace. So who the hell should I choose?

And, the first match I ever saw was on Saturday 17 March 1956, a belated 4th birthday treat.

Arsenal v Man U at Highbury. When my Dad told his mate Utd had a lot of teenagers in their team, I thought that teddy boys with flick-knives wouldn't go down too well with the ref, refs always being associated with PC Plod in Noddy by yours truly, and teenagers with the teddy boys you always saw on street corners round Camberwell Green.

So, when not one spotty-faced weedy little runt emerged in all-white with red trim(change colours), I was surprised.

And when the 14-stone 5' 11" number 6 entered, I was awestruck. Because he was a teenager, too, just-DUNCAN EDWARDS.

Now, I want to know where A_L played at rugby. Hooker or scrum-half is my guess!

I will mention the one and only time I spanked someone at work on a work-related issue in due course once I check something first!

Steve M

Hi Steve. It is not very often that you are wrong in this estimable Forum, but sadly this is one such instance. Left prop I'm afraid, big, strong and brutal, but not terribly fast! I wasn't particularly good at the game, nor very fond of it, or any other team game for that matter, and I gave it up when I left school in favour of 'individual' sports.

Hi Declan. I'm with Steve, I think you should have given both the flexi-time manipulating young ladies a good spanking. After all, unlike the 'detention' you imposed it would have been over and done with quickly and no hard feelings! Seriously though, I never found disciplining the fair sex at work very easy. I only had to be instrumental in sacking two women, but in both cases if one of my colleagues had offered to do the dismissal interview for me for 3 months salary they'd probably have had a deal!

Going back to flexi-time, that brings back happy memories! In my job at the time it came in, with on-call liabilities, and a need to stop at work until problems were sorted, we'd always operated a sort of 'honour' system of time management, which tended to very much favour our employer, because nobody bothered to claim for every odd minute at work. We didn't want flexi-time, but it was imposed on us, against the will of our direct line management.

Annoyed, we worked to rule. Within a very short time everyone had so much flexi-time accrued that they had to take days off under the flexi-time rules, with the result that vital work didn't get done. Our users then exerted pressure in the appropriate quarter, and very quickly a compromise was agreed. We 'clocked in and out' when we remembered, to give admin some flexi-time records to file, but nobody took any notice of the results, and we went back to the 'honour' system of time management, which allowed us to accrue much bigger blocks of time off, to be taken when we wanted, subject to the requirements of the job, which only we really understood.

Your reunion sounds fun. I hope you have better luck than me though. I can absolutely guarantee that in my case that would be the occasion the sensationally tightly trousered barmaid would present the perfect, once in a lifetime, never to be repeated opportunity for a smack! Let us hope that you are not faced with that dilemma!

As you say, I am not a football supporter. I've only ever been to one football match anywhere in my entire life, and that was a youth international, England v Germany I think it was, at Wembly when I was about 11. I do enjoy watching bits of football when I happen to see then on friends' TVs, but only really the goals, some of which seem almost supernaturally skilful to me. I also have to keep myself acquainted as best I can with the progress of Manchester United, whom two very good friends support. I don't want to phone if they are deep in mourning!

And finally, you say, (smiley face). You may not wish to have the Network54 genuine article, but if you do, try the effect of colon right parenthesis (and indeed colon left parenthesis, which could come in handy if the barmaid performs as I predict! ) Substituting semi-colon for colon will give you a wink. More interesting stuff can be found by clicking on the '(Huh?)' link you'll see at the bottom of the posting form.

Steve M,

No one is prepared to edit out the vulgarity contained in your messages any longer and consequently the entire post is deleted.

Not sure whar Steve M has done to upset the powers that be. I would, though like to hear his story of a work related spanking.

As regards spanking barmaids, and the tight trousered young lady has yet to feel the palm of my hand,this is a tale from some years ago. In a pub in central London, I was sitting with some mates, and the barmaid, who I knew reasonably well, spilt a drink over the table I was at and I jokingly said " You need a spanking" To my surprise and delight she turned round and bent over, in effect inviting me to spank her.I gave her a gentle tap which she seemed to enjoy.

There was another pub in the same area at which the landlord handed out smacked bottoms to both barmaids and customers on a daily basis. More details to follow if desired.

Considering there wasn't one single vulgarity in the entire post, there's no point whatever in me staying on this forum.


Steve M

Perhaps if someone in authority, such as Big Rays old mum could inform us as to which words are not acceptable it would save a bit of consternation?

If Steve M leaves I leave too. I was relying on his ludicrous attempts at deception to keep me laughing throughout the duration of the Credit Crunch.

Not so very long ago I said my goodbyes to this estimable Forum over a deleted post. I later realised on reflection that the post wasn't quite as acceptable as I'd intended it to be, and that, coupled with the expressed hope that I'd relent by one or two people, including Steve, brought me back into the fold.

I very much hope that Steve will find it possible to reconsider and carry on posting. I for one shall miss him greatly if he doesn't. He gave me a lot of encouragement when I first posted here, for which I was very grateful, and we've had many excellent interchanges since. We've had our differences recently over some of the rather polarising issues which have come up of late, but that sort of thing happens in internet forums just as it does in RL.

Steve, if you can find it possible to change your mind, please do, even if it means you abiding by conventions that you don't necessarily support 100%. On a humorous note, perhaps not quite appropriate in the circumstances, but you know me well enough to accept that there's no malice involved: You really don't want to leave me the unopposed position as Lotta's greatest fan if she ever returns, now do you?

Hi Declan. I too would like to hear Steve's account of administering a spanking at work. I presume that this was during his Civil Service days. I was a civil servant myself for a time, but somehow I missed out on the spanking related episodes which seem to have enlivened the careers of yourself and Steve!

I'd also like to hear about your spanking landlord. Sounds like excellent pub entertainment! I used to drink in a pub very close to work where over the bar hung a miniature US school type paddle. This was decorated with a cartoon picture of a rather delicate and feminine looking deer walking though some trees followed by a grizzly bear and bore the legend 'For the little deer with the bear behind'. I knew what it was, but I'm pretty sure my colleagues didn't, and nor, I suspect, did the then staff or the regulars. I don't think most people even noticed it and certainly I never saw it deployed, or even joked about, nor did it ever appear to have been lifted down. Probably a legacy from a previous landlord with a CP interest. Must go back some time and see if it's still there!

Well, I can't keep Laughing_Boy frowning can I?

You should know, as a Man U fan, I reserve the right to smash corner flags to pieces in a strop after collecting a red card. This one was completely undeserved, as I've simply stopped using industrial language at all, rather than just sticking the ****'s in for them.

Let's just say, after a tiring day yesterday trimming a buddlea, I was less than gruntled to tune in this morning & get RA 2's message. The post took nearly 40 mins to put together, because it brought back bad memories, as I think now more than then I should never have done it-the spanking, not the flipping post!!! I spent another 10 mins ensuring nothing in there would offend the censors, too!

Still, as I have tonight invented a new identity for Sarah on Ebay & even got compliments slips printed, I am in a bit of a better mood. I still don't appreciate being treated like a 14 year old when I don't act like one(well not too often anyway ), but there you go.

As I WAS saying last night, A_L, I was a 2nd row forward. 6 foot & 15 stone & 14 of that was flab, I'm afraid.

I would like to have been the sort of footballing inside forward who could move "like a lizard slipping through the grass" as Jimmy Greaves was once described. Unfortunately, I was more like a ruddy brontosaurus in navy blue(the MGS reserve strip), touching the ball about once per 80 mins of rugby.

Anyhow, I'll get on to posting re the Civil service unofficial disciplinary code in 1986 shortly, maybe tonight, maybe tomorrow.


Steve M

Good to see that you've relented Steve. I didn't see the post in question before it got snipped. You and I must have been pretty much of a size at school. At 16 I made the 15 stone, but not quite the 6 foot, I was only 5'11½". When I started cycle racing at uni I eventually got the weight down to just under 11 stone. Sadly it's nearly all gone back on now. Of course, I put it down entirely to extra arm and upper body muscle due to the climbing - I'm an expert in self-delusion!

A_L

Spooky!

I slimmed down to 10 stone 3 at 18 after leaving school & never went beyond 11 stone 7 until I met Sarah(1987).

Now, somewhere between 14 & 15 stone!!

I'll post the Civil Service story tomorrow-I've decided I ought to let others decide if I was bang out of order reacting as I did back then. It is embarassing to recall it, but I expect others here have occasionally made a complete plonker of themselves and realised it straight after they did it.


Steve M

Hi Steve Weight-wise, spooky indeed! However, I don't feel quite so bad about putting it back on now - must be a characteristic of the body type since you've experienced the same thing.

You say:

I expect others here have occasionally made a complete plonker of themselves and realised it straight after they did it.

Too many times to count, but then I do have an extra 10 years worth to look back on!

OMG A L this is so spooky and I am sure I have written about this before! I recal a shop in Southend on mud that sold spanking paddles with the same writng and depiction on them. Circa 1960 something?
I guess big Rays old mum is imbibing the port and lemon in Limehouse and is too busy to comment.

13 1/2 stone in 1990, the same today. But 11 1/2 stone in 1984. How? A project visit to India!

Right, regarding that Civil Service affair, at the time I had 8 staff & ran a file registry, just as we were going from a manual card index to a computer database.

I had 6 AOs & 2 AAs, one of whom was Martita, the cause of this-all names are changed here, by the way.

Martita's work was OK in that she'd do the minimum required well, but not a jot more. She was 19 and had an attitude-which stunk!

All was well until I found out from my boss that Mary, one of my AO's, was regularly phoning relatives in her dinner hour. Had these been her relatives in Edmonton, fine, but these were the folks back home-in Nigeria!

I got hauled over the coals for not knowing about it, and got vexed with Martita, when she casually told me she'd known about it, but said nothing. She first of all said because she thought I'd go loco, but that just wasn't my way. Then, she simply said she couldn't be bothered telling me.

Now, both she & Steve, the other AA, had already had a couple of run-ins with Tony, a team leader in one part of the admin structure. He often wanted dozens of files at a moment's notice, and was both inflexible and rude about deadlines to them.

I told Tony I wasn't having my staff talked to like rubbish and if it occurred again, I'd take it further.

Now, one Thursday evening, a miracle-Martita decided to work late. Next day, I was regaled with the details of another row with Tony. More rudeness and he'd made a half-hearted pass at her.

So, yours truly was off up the corridor to see Tony forthwith.

I'll pause here to allow RA2 to check a shorter pair of posts, so we DON'T get any more deletions.


Steve M

OK, the rest.

A second miracle now occurred-yours truly thinking before he acted. There were no witnesses to this allegation, so going at Tony would achieve nothing.

I simply asked Tony if he'd been OK with the files. He said sorry that he'd not been able to see anyone last night, as there were a few needed, but nothing too urgent. It then transpired Tony had shot off early(for him) & guess what, no Martita in residence.

A quick question to a couple of other regular late-requesters confirmed it. Martita was out of the office and gone before 4.30, let alone either the 5pm Tony had gone to the registery or the 5:30 it was alleged the pass had been made.

I said to her on my return I'd stay late with her tonight, just in case. She started to turn distinctly ashen at this point. At this point, incidentally, I just wanted to ask her privately what she was playing at.

Anyway, 5pm came & it was soon apparent no-one else in the building was staying late. So, I took her into the small file-room off the main office & locked the door.

I asked her what she was playing at and told her what the facts seemed to be. I'm afraid red mist started to descend as she started the shoulder-shrugging routine again.

Right, part 3 in a minute-sorry RA2, but this will at least mean 3 shorter checks for ya & not one enormour post on a Bank Hol!


Steve M

Right, last bit!

Steam rapidly rising from my head, I asked Martita did she realise she could have got Tony the bullet with a complete pack of lies? She sealed her fate with another shoulder shrug & "So What?"-use your imagination re the adjectival dressing on the day.

Now, I swear the only reason we were standing was the chairs that usually sat in the file-room were round the back of it & not by the desk. I suppose I was so livid I wasn't observing the normal conventions of politeness from the start.

Anyway, I now grabbed her, threw her over the desk on which we piled the files we pulled and spanked her. I gave her 15 or 16 wallops by hand and I have to say they were full pelt and in anger. Poor girl was crying her eyes out very quickly.

I told her if she ever got up to this sort of thing again, SHE'D be out the door. I was off home & she could clear up for once, instead of me having to clean up the mess her lies caused.

Before you sit in judgement, she became a reformed character. Still cheeky & chirpy, but that chip-on-the-shoulder attitude had changed. 6 months later, she got promoted & by the time I left, she was an EO, too.

However, I still view that with shame. I was brought up that you never ever struck a woman in anger, and what the hell had I just done but that, and quite a few times over?

Good job, too, she really wasn't a truly rotten sort, or I'd have been through the door quicker than you could say Jack Robinson!



Steve M

An most excellent account Steve. Ah, the joys of managing teams - it all comes flooding back to me! Your reaction was well merited I'm sure, but certainly not part of the Disciplinary Code as contained in the manuals, or at least it certainly wasn't in the manuals in my bit of the Civil Service!

I think you were a very lucky man indeed that there were no serious repercussions! It almost suggests that the young lady was well aware of her shortcomings and wasn't too surprised (or indeed disappointed) at your reaction. I imagine though that you were somewhat apprehensive each time you received a summons from your boss over the next few days!

I certainly can't match the Civil Service corporal punishment experiences of Steve and Declan, as sadly in my fairly brief career as a Civil Servant I only encountered one instance of CP, and that was strictly MM. However, it is technically more or less on topic, so here goes!

At one stage I and other colleagues were dropped into an existing computer centre rather abruptly to take over the shift manager posts. I was content to listen to and learn from my new staff until I got the feel of things, but one of my colleagues rapidly got a reputation for being a bit too hands on with the operating console (we'd all had a brief operating course on the machine in question). This greatly annoyed his staff, who had the responsibility for getting the work through and who would have had to sort things out if he'd made a mistake.

I arrived one day to take over from my colleague with the itchy fingers, and observed him in the computer room standing behind the lad operating the console. As I entered the computer room my colleague suddenly stepped forward and reached towards the bank of control switches on the console. Hardly glancing round from what he was doing the console operator picked up a ruler, smacked my colleague over the knuckles with it and carried on with what he was doing as though nothing had happened. My colleague jumped backwards, and rapidly beat a retreat. To my amazement absolutely nothing was said on either side!

Diplomatically I effected not to have seen the incident and it wasn't mentioned during the handover. My staff subsequently reported that the other shift were no longer complaining about my colleague's operating efforts, and indeed he seemed to develop quite an aversion to even entering the computer room! Those of you who've been in the civil service will appreciate what a non-standard environment we had when I say that my colleague was an HEO and the lad who rapped his knuckles was a substantive MO (Machine Operator) three grades below HEO, temporarily acting SMO (Senior Machine Operator) two grades lower!

My apologies, in the above post for 'effected' please read 'affected'. My apologies to everyone for committing such dreadful abuse of the English language!

Hi Mimi. It would have been around the mid 1970s when I used to visit the pub with the paddle. A google of the relevant phrase throws up several references to such a paddle. There is even one rather grandly referring to the picture as 'a fawn pursued by an ursine'! Another claims that such a paddle was either sold by Disney or appeared in a Disney film - I can't quite make out which. They seem to have been sold as souveniers rather than for serious use, both here and in the US.

Sadly I have been unable to find a picture of one exactly as I remember it. However, here is a fairly close approximation, taken from this blog.

Hi Alan Turing. I must book myself a visit to India!

Steve M

Great stuff, I'll get back to you on this one.

A_L

Just a few memories of the spanking landlord.I'm surprised that he did not appear to own that paddle,

As I said you could almost guarantee to witness a bottom smack every time you went in there.This was usually on the barmaids, but often on customers. I recall a group of about 5 attractive girls in there and the landlord, Don, smacked three of them very hard, on tightly jeaned bottoms. The two girls who missed out were very disappointed I suspect.

There were often Aussie girls employed there and one of them wore jeans with the back pocket removed, so presenting a nice target for Don. Once , one of these girls was serving me and got a sharp slap from him and she said to me that's about ten today already.

I never once saw any of the barmaids or customers complain about this, on the contrary they all seemed to enjoy it. He once took a girl over his knee and gave her about three smacks, much to her delight.

A true eccentric, who also used to shout at customers , sometimes in jest , sometimes not.Sadly he moved to the south coast, but may still be in the pub trade.

A further tale from spankings of barmaids.

About five years ago we used to go to a pub next door to the office. We got to know a very attractive Portugese barmaid called Maria. One Friday I was having the afternoon off and after a drink at lunchtime with my mates I decided to have another pint, as they went back to work.

There were very few people there and as Maria walked beside me , I was sitting on a bar stool, I grabbed her and put her over my knee and administered a brief spanking. She was, as usual, wearing tight jeans. She pretended that it hurt and rubbed her bottom with a smile on her face. Some girls from the next office, who must have been having a late lunch, found this very amusing.

A few weeks later we were in there again and someone asked her whether the builders that came in there gave her any bother, and her response was " No not really, but Declan spanked me once, but I didn't mind" Baffled looks from my mates, apart from one of them who knew of my spanking fetish!!

Her father was a very senior Police Officer in Portugal, so another risky one, though I had had a few pints to drink. I went out for a drink with her a few times after this when she moved to a different pub.

I once thought of joining the Civil Service , I obviously choose the wrong profession


Ketta

Hi Declan. Your spanking landlord sounds a splendid character. With so many pubs going to the wall it is to be hoped that he is still in the trade. Even though I've been on the receiving end I always feel that landlords who shout at their customers lend a certain frisson to the drinking experience!

My own most alarming experience in this respect came in a Derbyshire village pub, a real old fashioned establishment, beer served from jugs through a hatch, no bar or similar frivolities. I didn't know this on my first visit, but there were two things that the elderly landlady did not permit. Asking for a shandy and requesting anything other than plain crisps. I stepped gaily up to the hatch and did both in the course of a single sentence! The room instantly fell silent and I was subjected to a dressing down which would have made the most aggressive manager I ever worked for green with envy! I was only saved from having the dog set on me and/or being banned for life by an ex-colleague who was a local and who interceded on my behalf once he managed to stop laughing. In fact he did such a good job that some lemonade was eventually very grudgingly produced and I got my shandy, but I still had to make do with plain crisps like everyone else!

Your spanking exploit with the Portugese barmaid. I can only repeat that you must have superb judgement in these matters or be extremely lucky, most probably both!

A_L

I must thank you for your advice of caution on Facebook. I had thought of sending a message to my Aberdeen lady, suggesting a spanking for sending me an abusive message. Having already sent a message about the tag ( strap), if I mentioned spanking in a subsequent message she might realise I was a bit of a perv and she could put a public message up about this.

To be fair she has not sent anything but kind messages on the public forum and other more personal ones privately. It would be best not to take the risk though.

Another spanking landlord tale.

In Wimbledon there was a temporary manager at a pub, and he very occasionally used to give a barmaid a slap on the behind. Once he produced a spatula and one of the barmaids asked him if he was going to spank her with it. He said yes , and chased her into the kitchen. She came back rubbing her bottom , and the other barmaid asked her whether he had spanked her.She said yes, with a smile on her face.

Another one from the landlord Don. A customer asked him whether the sandwiches were fresh. " No Sir they came out of a tin "