On both these questions there are a variety of answers in school policies in handbooks where CP is still used. For the cane it's a matter of headmaster or teacher and for the paddle here one of principal or teacher. The maximum swats are usually printed in the handbooks.
I'm sure this estimable Forum has addressed both issues through the years but I'm not sure if it has done so under one thread or it would be of any benefit? I would imagine teachers POV and students POV both on the giving and receiving end would prove informative and interesting.

My opinions are far from written in stone but I think it might be a good place to start the discussion. It should be the principal that administers it to assure uniformity and not interfere with teacher/student ensuing relationship. "Free passes" should given on a parental across the board exemption renewable annually and not case by case and students should be given equally severe consequences to choose from so as not to have to awkwardly restrain an unwilling student in administering corporal punishment. The rules have to be clearly stated, fairly administered and the rules attainable so they don't prove insurmountable for students who have the must difficulty behaving. Even with that caveat it would be reasonable for a teacher to encourage a parent of a child who makes the effort but falls short of abiding by the rules to seek counseling and perhaps even home schooling. Not all students are capable of conforming situationally (counseling) or essentially (home schooling). Children have a keen sense of equality and would resent exceptions and not fully understand the situation.

Five paddle swats seem to be the maximum judging by most school districts found in the last 25 years in student handbooks so that would be what their parents remembered. I don't know if five swats is equivalent to six of the best and I don't intend to be a guinea pig!!!

In the UK for slipper or cane. But perhaps some schools had other specific limits?

I believe that so long as the person administering the punishment stuck within that limit, they were reasonably safe from the accusation of "excessive" punishment until the time came when the courts began to take a dim view of any corporal punishment that left its mark.

I can recall reading accounts of several court cases when judges seemed happy with such punishment the last one involving Barry Tavner, a 13 year old who was given five of the best with the cane having been threatened with 10 of the best, which certainly left its mark (look on corpun.com for graphic evidence if so minded).

I was at school (early 1970s) with a boy who received 12 of the best (as 6+6 15 minutes apart) at the age of 13, he did not complain even though he fainted during the second punishment, something which even then would probably have been one for the courts if he or more likely his parents complained, but then he did nearly burn down his school!

Scotty

One factor often overlooked when trying to regulate the severity of corporal punishment is the size and physique of the recipient. Large beefy buttocks are very much better able to absorb energy without injury than small bony. Then there is the psychological capacity to accept corporal punishment. It seems that boys in general may be less likely to suffer psychological harm than girls. So what of gender equality? Regulating who may administer CP and with what, and limiting the number of swats or strokes is not enough.

With reference to strokes and swats the psychological differences can be mitigated by having gender consideration in the administration of CP as required in most policy found in USA student handbooks. Were those gender considerations involved when CP was legal in other countries as they are most often now? The force applied as well as the shape or length (paddle or cane), and width of the implement can be adjusted accordingly for size and physique. It should be proportional to plano or pleno and platypal differences but like physics it is often all Greek to me. This URL may prove both informative and amusing to some in this regard.
http://www.wordinfo.info/words/index/info/view_unit/1807/1/?spage=&letter=

My opinions are far from written in stone but I think it might be a good place to start the discussion. It should be the principal that administers it to assure uniformity and not interfere with teacher/student ensuing relationship.

In a situation where the Principal (or Headmaster) is not a teacher, this might have some logic behind it I suppose. But in my school, the Headmaster is a teacher, and so am I as Deputy Headmaster. We have reduced teaching loads (the Headmaster more than myself) to allow for our other duties, but we are teachers, and in my case, I still have a teaching load that has me in the classroom for quite a few periods a week. I have to say, I've never really understood the model of school leadership which is based around the idea that you're required to show yourself to be a really good teacher in order to be promoted into a position where you are no longer teaching - in my view, either Principals/Headmasters should still be doing a reasonable amount of teaching, or we should stop worrying about them being teachers at all, and simply train people right from the start to run schools. Competent, experienced teachers being turned into non-teaching, inexperienced bureaucrats, seems a horrible waste and rather a risk.

But if the person is still a teacher, then they have to preserve their teacher/student relationships as well. My role in my school requires me to be the primary disciplinarian, but it also requires me to continue to teach and that means maintaining the rapport a teacher needs to do that. I think you can manage that without damaging it, even if you do administer corporal punishment on occasion, and so I don't see any particular reason why you need to avoid that problem.

But even if it was desirable, I'd recommend another way of doing it. Some independent schools here used to have School Sergeants (a few still do, but their role has changed a bit). The School Sergeant's primary role was to handle discipline - in some schools, he really wasn't much more than a designated hitter (if I may borrow that term). It's not a model I particularly approve of, but if people really think their needs to be somebody responsible for all incidents of corporal punishment, I think it's a better model than putting that role in the hands of a teacher who is no longer supposed to teach.

Your other point is uniformity - I suppose my question is, why does corporal punishment necessarily need to be uniform? Children aren't uniform - why should corporal punishment be? Why should any form of discipline need to be uniform. When I give a boy a detention, what I expect him to do in it differs from what some other teachers do. When I cane him, it might differ a bit from if another teacher caned him. Yes, you do need a reasonable level of consistency in a school - but consistency doesn't require uniformity, nor does it require that non-identical students are treated in identical ways. Somewhere along the line an idea seems to have developed - and in a sense, I feel it's a rather American idea - that school discipline needs to be handled in a quasi-judicial way. Because we have set laws and sentences for courts and criminal justice, we should have them for schools as well... that this is somehow better. It rather ignores the fact that the purpose of discipline in school is - or at least should be - rather different from the purpose behind a criminal justice system. When I am punishing a boy, I want to be free to do what I need to do in his best interests - without worrying about whether that's the same thing that was in the best interests of the boy who committed a similar offence a month ago. You can't completely avoid looking for parity, but you don't need to obsess about it, and you certainly don't need to fix your policies in place around it as a primary concern.

"Free passes" should given on a parental across the board exemption renewable annually and not case by case and students should be given equally severe consequences to choose from so as not to have to awkwardly restrain an unwilling student in administering corporal punishment.

I am reasonably in favour of the idea of parentally-requested exemption being allowed within government school systems, if corporal punishment is available. I am not particularly supportive of the idea when it comes to independent schools, where there are plenty of other schools available as a choice. The education we offer is a package deal, not a menu people get to pick and choose from. I suppose a school like that could be set up - and that would be fine - but it's not what we do, and it's not what the majority of our parents want. Parental requests should be taken seriously - but in the end, if you don't want what we offer, choose a different school.

The issue of given students a choice of punishments is complicated, in this country at least, by laws concerning informed consent. In simple terms, I'm not generally allowed to offer a boy a choice of corporal punishment or some other punishment. The law requires a decision to administer corporal punishment to be made by a person legally competent to make the decision - and the law does not consider a child to be competent in that way (with boys aged 16 and over, I am allowed to assume competence unless, in my judgement, the boy has not reached that stage, with boys under 16, theoretically I can decide they are competent in unusual cases, but I need to be prepared to stand up in court, if ever called on it, to prove my judgement - not an easy thing to do). The law is quite convoluted -I am allowed to offer a boy who is facing the cane, the alternative of a detention - but I am not equally allowed to offer a boy who is facing a detention, the alternative of the caning. You may well ask what is the difference - I have asked that question - well, in law, there is a difference, and it isn't always easy to deal with. In the end, I have to be very careful in offering a boy a choice in cases where caning is an option, and really the only generally safe way for me to do it is to inform him he is going to be caned, and then offer him an alternative, and that's a methodology I find troubling and overly complex.

Because the law does not allow me to physically force a boy to accept a caning (I have no real desire to do so, although again, the law seems somewhat incongruous - I'm allowed to hit him with a reasonable degree of force, but can't use even a minimum of force to restrain him so he can be hit - but I could use reasonable force to restrain him in other circumstances), he does, in a realistic, if not a purely legal sense, have the ability to refuse, in which case he'd normally face suspension, if not expulsion. These are generally regarded as more severe sanctions.

The rules have to be clearly stated, fairly administered and the rules attainable so they don't prove insurmountable for students who have the must difficulty behaving.

Some of our rules are clearly stated, but many are not. They are common sense rules, you can reasonably expect to be understood. Once again, this is not a criminal justice system - it's a system that should be working towards what is in the best interests of the child, and if a boy knows he's done the wrong thing, and punishment is appropriate for that, you really don't need rules that are written down precisely. This system does require us to be reasonable and accept the possibility that in some cases a boy may truly not have understood what he was doing wasn't acceptable even if that's hard to an adult mind to comprehend - but most of the time, there's no real disconnect.

ven with that caveat it would be reasonable for a teacher to encourage a parent of a child who makes the effort but falls short of abiding by the rules to seek counseling and perhaps even home schooling. Not all students are capable of conforming situationally (counseling) or essentially (home schooling).

I certainly have no problem with homeschooling. I'm a great supporter of it in cases where parents want that for their child, and are willing to do what is needed to make it work. But I don't like the idea of any child being forced into homeschooling, because a school placement can't be found that meets their needs. There are probably some cases where, regrettably, that does happen - but that represents a failure on the part of the schools. Homeschooling should be a choice - not a compulsion.

Children have a keen sense of equality and would resent exceptions and not fully understand the situation.

I find that boys accept the exemptions and exceptions we have at our school, because they know we only do them for good reason, and they therefore trust that there is a good reason where they arise. I don't think children always need to understand the situation fully - they do need to be confident that it is being handled properly, even if they don't know the details.

Five paddle swats seem to be the maximum judging by most school districts found in the last 25 years in student handbooks so that would be what their parents remembered. I don't know if five swats is equivalent to six of the best and I don't intend to be a guinea pig!!!

I wouldn't want to either. My school does, today, limit canings to six strokes, and when I began teaching that was the limit for all 'normal' canings, but there was provision for it to be exceeded in exceptional circumstances. The same applied when I was at school. My teachers very rarely exceeded it, and I very rarely exceeded it, when it was an option - and I really don't think there's any real need to do so. Six of the best is a very significant penalty for any boy - you don't need more than that. I don't necessarily believe that any more is completely beyond the pale, but it's not needed in my view, and my experience.

Were those gender considerations involved when CP was legal in other countries as they are most often now?

In Australia, as I've said before, every state had different rules when it came to corporal punishment in its government schools. Some states allowed girls to be physically punished, others didn't allow it at all. Where they did, they took a range of approaches to 'gender differences'.

Victoria did not officially allow girls to be physically punished in state schools at all in the twentieth century (before anybody speaks up, yes, I know it happened sometimes anyway but it was not supposed to happen). Therefore, there were no rules on what was meant to occur if a girl was physically punished. Roughly the same applied in Queensland.

New South Wales, the Australian Capital Territory, and Western Australia, allowed primary aged girls to be physically punished, but not secondary school aged girls. NSW and the ACT set no special rules on how primary aged girls were to be punished, Western Australia explicitly required such punishment to be administered by a female teacher.

Tasmania and South Australia are interesting. Both states allowed the corporal punishment of girls - South Australia on a theoretically equal basis with boys, Tasmania only in very exceptional circumstances. Both states deliberately limited the use of corporal punishment to a small number of appointed teachers in a school. In many, many schools, these appointed teachers were likely to all be male (there was nothing to prevent a female being appointed - but a Principal who anticipated 99% or more of all corporal punishment would be administered to boys, and who could only appoint two other teachers, would often appoint two male staff members). What this could mean was that on the rare occasions a girl was physically punished (and it was supposed to be rare in Tasmania, and, in practice, was rare in most of SA) it was very possible the punishment would be administered by a man.

Independent schools in each state, as always, made their own policies. Until the coming of Equal Opportunities laws in the 1980s, it was not uncommon for girls schools that used corporal punishment to explicitly limit such punishment to female teachers. Boys schools put equivalent policies in place less often, but they were by no means unknown. Independent co-ed schools were fairly rare, but many of these did limit corporal punishment to teachers of the same sex, especially in the case of girls. There was no requirement for this to happen, but many schools did set such policies.

When we had girls in our school as 'guests' in the early 1970s for senior subjects not offered at our senior school, I - and I do regret this - insisted as a condition of having girls in my senior science classes that they would be subjected to the same laboratory rules as the boys I taught - which meant safety violations would lead to the cane. I did cane a very small number of girls in that situation, and it was a situation was accepted - although it was accepted as a fairly unusual one, not something that would have been considered indicative of a normal policy or practice.

Dr Dominum, archival material would suggest that public school policy of forbidding girls over the age of 12 were in place for half a century in the Queensland. I know you value personal experience more than scholarly opinion but sometimes history beyond our personal experience should be carefully considered. There is nothing magical about the age of 12 but female hygiene issues, due to sanitary napkins, indisputably more then and less now, or pregnancy issues (the sins of the mother!!!), in spite of contraception, arguably less then and more now.

http://www.archivessearch.qld.gov.au/Search/SeriesSearchResults.aspx

Corporal punishment registers were kept by the Head Teacher of each school, and record all corporal punishment administered by the Head Teacher or an assistant [authorised by the Minister]. The corporal punishment register contains the following information for each entry: the date, the name of the pupil or pupils receiving corporal punishment, the fault or incident requiring punishment and the kind and extent of punishment. Historical Note: Corporal punishment was to be administered not for trivial breaches of school discipline but rather only as a last resort when the student had committed offences against morality, gross impertinence, and/or wilful and persistent disobedience. Girls over the age of twelve were not to receive corporal punishment.

http://books.google.com/books?id=TnQYAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA88&lpg=PA88&dq=corporal+punishment+record+keeping&source

Back to my gainfully employed work related research, legal matters are within the domain of my job description.

Our schools and courtrooms are beginning to look alike. At 17 names are put in the paper of those arrested and I know a second grade teacher who does not need a crystal ball who can predict ten years into the future who they will be. Their parents are not in the least bit cooperative and their child's, "you can't make me attitude", is finally addressed when they face a judge who can. While the lack of respect and structure begins in the home and often ends in the courtroom the classroom should be the place where respect and rules are inculcated. Our schools are becoming more ruled by the law of the jungle with bullying of peers and disrespect for authority so it shouldnt be surprising that we have the highest incarceration rate in the world. As Dr Dominum has correctly observed our SCP policies look like JCP policies with mandatory sentence, due process and even a student making a last statement before bending over and taking his or her licks. The policies are approved by lawyers that fear litigation and are written accordingly. Paddling is not a panacea but it can be an alternative to suspension from a classroom putting the student at risk outside the classroom. Making our schools safer for learning will make our streets safer for living.

I've located the Queensland regulations in question - and from 1934, the corporal punishment of girls was banned in Queensland state schools (Regulation 89 1934). From 1902 until 1934, it was restricted to girls under 12 (Regulation 111 1902, Regulation 113 1908, Regulation 117 1914).

It looks to me as if the historical note mentioned was in fact based on the 1902, 1908, and 1914 regulations.

Regulation 89 - 1934

(a) Head teachers may administer corporal punishment in their schools, but to boys only. Corporal punishment shall not be inflicted for trivial breaches of school discipline, for minor offences, or for the failure or inability to learn, but may be employed - and only as a last resource - for offences against morality, gross impertinence, or wilful and persistent disobedience. All forms of irregular, degrading, injurious, and unnecessarily severe punishment are strictly prohibited.
Female pupils and members of Infant Sections or Departments shall not be subjected to corporal punishment
(b) A head teacher may, with the approval of the Minister, delegate to an assistant the power to administer corporal punishment, but the head teacher shall nevertheless be held responsible for the nature and extent of the punishment inflicted.
(c) In making application under (b) hereof, a head teacher shall give the names of those members of his staff to whom this power has already been delegated.
(d) In every case where corporal punishment is inflicted the full particulars shall be recorded at the time in the Punishment Register.
(e) Junior teachers in all cases, and assistants other than those authorised by the Minister are strictly forbidden to inflict corporal punishment.
(f) Only one school cane may be kept. This, and the Punishment Register shall be under the control of the head teacher.

Historical source below link.

http://education.qld.gov.au/library/edhistory/topics/corporal/extracts.html

http://teachers.net/states/ar/topic497/5.28.07.21.16.36.html

The swat versus the stroke is somewhat addressed from the paddling point of view. I know Dr Dominum you avoid certain videos but this sample paddling gives you an idea how CP is used among younger children who seemingly prefer it to detention as shown in the below URL. It's from CBS network and was a subject of a front page New York Times newspaper so it is safe viewing. Obviously not given in the manner administered to older students as the above URL written by Melissa attests to. The Booneville paddling was reality TV and not as reliable as the CBS Everman documentary so I won't repeat the link nor encourage Dr Dominum to watch it as I do the above video. I don't think people understand that Australian and Southerner teachers are not sadistic as a rule because thry cane or paddle, obviously there are exceptions and if they were abusive caning and paddling would not be considered a big deal; I can understand those who have not encountered CP in a generation would find it troubling and make a big deal of it.

http://cbs11tv.com/video/?id=13331@ktvt.dayport.com

Mr. Anthony Price, the middle school principal, also said corporal punishment worked. He arrived at the school two years ago, hired, he said, to turn around an institution that was rife with fights, students cursing teachers and gang activity.

Not until months after he arrived, Mr. Price said, did a parent tell him that corporal punishment was used at the high school. He got permission to reinstate it in the middle school, too, and began with the 2005-6 school year, during which 150 of the schools 685 students were paddled.

This Christian School allows a maximum of 10 swats (referred to as strokes) at the discretion of the person administering the punishment. The school appears to be mixed, so presumably that number applies to both boys and girls. Depending on the size and weight of the paddle used, and the force of the blows, 10 swats could result in a very sore bottom indeed. I wonder how many other schools allow this many swats?

http://www.rcffellowship.org/Eagle%20Hand%20Book.htm

I'm writing this purely as a historical account, from my diary. Given we are talking in the 1970's it will have little bearing on the situation today, but I thought it might be of antiquarian interest if only because I may be one of a very few people who had the ' empirical experience' in their teenage years of 'experimentially' comparing six of the best in Public School (UK), and swats from a paddle , administered by a VP from South of the Mason Dixon.. ( Perhaps this explains why I generally find an anti empiricist, anti experimental , stance in life and social science alike, so attractive.....???!!)

I have posted previously about the lady who 'acted' as deputy head at my school during the serious illness of the incumbent , and who was responsible for my first caning. At I have said openly I cannot fairly assess her performance as a teacher, because in my case I already knew her through teaching me country guitar , subsequently playing in her country rock band for many years, and for sometime dating her only daughter..But she had come from teaching/administrating in the US where she had achieved the post of VP in High School

This led to a rather ambiguous relationship at school, for which neither of us was responsible in that it could never have been envisaged that she would have taught me in main school curriculum, let alone been responsible for my academic progress and discipline. However it did cause some hilarity in class when from time to time, accidentally I would call her by her Christian name instead of the Ma'am she preferred, and she would respond in kind , most embarrassingly by calling me either by my shortened Christian name ( which has stuck forever with students and staff alike ) in a strictly surname only school, or worse, as 'young cat/ number one cat ' which was what the band members had christened me!

At home she told me not to treat her a teacher , let alone my deputy head, - her only requirement being her house : her rules. She gave me typical open Southern hospitality, and told me to treat her house as mine., which in the 70's England was quite unusual .As was her huge collection of vinyl from Dylan to Velvet Underground, great library, and a 25inch colour TV plus a huge fridge which you were welcome to raid ( provided you put the stuff in the dishwasher)!

Always the psychologist, she knew , for example , that if she thought I ought to have read a given book ( Hemingway Kerouac or even F. Scott Fitzgerald ) the thing to do was to drop it somewhere for me to 'discover' and read as my 'find' , not her suggestion! Despite not being my 'teacher' when at home from time to time she looked at our preparation, and would frequently tell us both, much to our chagrin , ' you can do much better, don't rush, you are not trying, .or ..scrap that rubbish and start again !',

Unfortunately ( for me ) she had one red line. Absolutely no tobacco in the house Zero tolerance. .I didn't smoke but my girlfriend did, and one day meeting after school she had persuaded me to buy her a packet of distinctive French cigarettes (cool!) from the local newsagent. I had forgotten , but I was still in school uniform, and the newsagent had been requested to report any boys buying cigarettes in uniform, and what's more he knew who I was.( dubious morality; he reported it but took the money as well!). Miss F took the call , and sure enough when I went round that evening we both faced the Spanish inquisition.

Basically she had found the cigarettes and had told her daughter she would paddle her- I had two choices- see her at school after assembly next morning , and take the mandatory six of the best in line with the school rules , or face a paddling, which after some thought she announced would be not more than twelve licks .I was ,fairly , allowed to examine her paddle so I made an 'informed' choice!!!! No point in arguing the toss, she ran a pure consequence based regime, don't do the crime if you can't do the time!

I took the paddling as the 'unknown' quantity, because the reports of her sixes were the stuff of nightmares, and four had been quite enough for me. She gave us ten swats each .( Before anyone shouts abuse , cruelty, or whatever..... remember it was the 70's and look up the number of students paddled in Texas alone at that time!!! The estimated figures!!).

We were given the licks in the brace position against the wall legs a couple of feet apart, back straight, with a typical 16x 3 inch or so half inch paddle with- I counted 8 bevelled holes, to those immortal words from the Deep South ' Stick that butt right out' .

How did it compare to the cane? Well the pain is qualitatively different, being overwhelmingly blunt and bruising , with initial sting, rather than the biting, fiery, intense , deeper pain of a 'best' stroke of the cane ( I guess its all to do with kinetic energy , surface area, elasticity , and so on ....) . she took the swats from below the shoulder with , if anything, somewhat less force than when she used the cane. Afterwards my butt was bright red, but not badly bruised, certainly not as bad as I thought it might have been.

Years ;later , when we were able to laugh about it , she did say comparing the two methods, she considered one stroke of the best equivalent to two 'normal' licks with the paddle. A normal stroke of the senior cane would be more painful that one swat, but two swats much more than one stroke of the senior . She said in her view that night I chose sensibly. I didn't break down , although I did use expletives several times, but most boys she caned would have been in tears after six of the best You would also have had a nice crop of markings......

Why was this the case., Well initially there may not be much difference between one stroke and one swat or lick, but the cane is cumulative over the minute or so of a caning, , whereas in time the paddle actually ( to me ) eventually numbs your backside. She had claimed that when she had caned me the last stroke (of four) had been 'the best' and certainly it seemed to sting far more than the other three combined , and was the one to which I reacted, both with a cry of surprise and involuntarily almost breaking position. On the other hand that stroke had 'gated ' the other three....Certainly the cane marks were more impressive , and those after I did get six of the best two years later, even more so...

What did her daughter think of the swats? Well I never got a printable reply, for some reason. Despite having asked for the bxxxxy cigarettes in the first place she seemed to rewrite history for her other friends, so as to blame 'the Brit boyfriend '(me!) for the whole episode.....

Anyway hope it has amused you even if it doesn't help solve the question...........!!!!

Thank you. I experienced neither. I value all your posts. Ten swats are excessive by todays standards. Corpun mentioned a public school that gave seven swats. Three is often the limit but five is almost universal and if properly applied should accomplish its purpose. But the fundamentalists drum to a different beat and gave ten. What a goofy beat from that school in Nebraska. The pastors and the principal (eucon international college) can do it in the name of Jesus and justify it in the end. I was disappointed in his negative response about spanking wives I was hoping that would get me into heaven. Ther is a Christian pastor who justified it. I think his name was Rev Armstrong. If I find the sermon I'll put it under the Jesus thread.

My sixth grade teacher, a retired lay teacher, the only one who was not a sister, never laid a finger on a child. They used pointers and not paddles being of Irish ancestry on the buttocks and a ruler like the parody above. Two times I succumbed to peer pressure and didn't live under her rules and she gave me a warning then the second time a choice of memorizing the Memorare (a long prayer) on my own time or to stay after school to do chores. If you didn't stay after school your parents wouldn't know and in my case I couldn't stay after because I had to pick up papers for my route. She believed that an idle mind was a devils playground so you would never have to just sit through detention. I recently donated to a scholarship on her memory.

prof n. Apropos to the bevelled holes in this link. It may be a think of the past.

http://teachers.net/states/ar/topic497/8.02.09.12.28.17.html

Hi American Way,


You might be right , but I'm still looking for a logic.......

As Alice said 'curiouser and curiouser'.

When in the Deep South in a few weeks time I really must make enquiries, because I do not understand the 'hysteria' that surrounds a few bevelled holes. The argument about the 'ghost of slavery's ships ', I can understand in an anthropological /sociological context.. As one of our esteemed contributors has said the paddle with holes might have made a frightening difference on naked flesh, particularly when used for full blooded punishment beatings- but then as I say any paddle is potentially a serious and dangerous weapon, if you are undisciplined enough to use it that way!

However here we are not talking of a full power beating by a slave master , but reasonable strength swats given by staff over jeans in an educational context, where , if reasonable rules are followed , the consequences are unpleasant yes- but not disproportionately so.....or is it that in the last thirty years there have been a lot of disproportionate punishments? I doubt it , and holes don't seem to have ever figured significantly in court cases....

I suppose what really bugs me about this one, is that I know I am no hero nor am I Indiana Jones !.I was a normal school kid, if anything a bit more frightened than some. Certainly as my American friend freely admits she saw me as far 'softer' than the 'confederate' kids she dealt with 'back home'. She's probably right because until a little while before this incident been scared rigid by the thought of having to take a caning, let alone be tortured by this , what I believe the antis claim as an apparent instrument of terror from Tomas de Torquemada's tool kit !This is the hyperbole of the 'antis' in an 'alternative' teaching instruction manual :-



Furthermore, many teachers like corporal punishment because they believe their job is to teach, not manage student behavior. Many prefer to leave the tasks of disciplining and counseling to administrators and counselors. Nonetheless, disciplining children by using corporal techniques produces harmful effects.  When canes, paddles, and belts are used on children, the potential exists for numerous physical injuries, including ruptured blood vessels, nerve and muscle damage, and hemorrhaging. Ears, eyes, and brains can be permanently damaged as a result of paddling (Cryan, 1987).
 
Psychological effects are many and may be just as, if not more, harmful. Children who are beaten lose self-esteem, and any attachment between child and teacher/administrator is weakened. Children who are beaten exhibit increased classroom anxiety and dependency and many feel humiliated as they lose respect for teachers, administrators, and the entire school process. They may lose interest in school and become frequent truants. Some demonstrate self-destructive behaviors, which over a period of time could lead to suicide (Cryan, 1987).
(Extract from the Instructor's Handbook , Florida 1991)



Notice the justification for the entire text relies only on one source for material.....and makes sweeping generalisations without any direct or even anecdotal evidentiary support. . However it would be a diversion to take issue with these here and now, and there are others more qualified to do that.


As I've said before I took ten licks ( Twelve or even more being the maximum allowed in many States at that time.).Of course it hurt, an awful lot....and , whilst I doubtless deserved it , I obviously wish she hadn't done it.....but I wasn't what she called 'broken' by it , which I have little doubt from reports I would have been ,given six of the best with a senior cane ( the alternative)- as her reputation in this regard was formidable. .

She clearly didn't think the two were equivalent as she said to me the day after that I'd definitely been sensible and certainly made, in her mind, the 'right' choice Now today we are talking of five at most , more likely three....or even two ...and , of course at the other end much harder paddlings were being given in those days ( well beyond the norm) , but still legal such as the 50 licks in Florida for making obscene 'phone calls (1977) which I have quoted elsewhere and is referenced in corpun.

Here is some selected evidence to show the then previling attitudes......(All also Corpun ).



"AS SEVEN angry Tennessee parents learned last week, the tune of the hickory stick can still ring -- legally -- through the halls of many American schools. The parents, who demanded assault warrants on behalf of their sons against Principal John Barnes of Bartlett High School, near Memphis, were rebuffed by Judge Willard Dixon, who cited a state supreme-court decision -- similar to rulings in every state -- that in the absence of local statutes to the contrary, teachers may physically punish students because they stand "in loco parentis" (in the place of parents) during school hours. In all, Barnes gave twenty boys (including Travis Cogburn Jr., shown above with his mother and Barnes) seven licks each with a 12-by-3-inch paddle for their part in an attempted boycott of their school's cafeteria. "You should have seen my boy's rear end!" cried one mother. "I have seen my own rear end after similar incidents," the judge replied."



And in Ingraham v. Wright (Not guilty):-


"Fourteen-year-old James Ingraham was an eighth grader attending Drew Junior High School in Dade County, Florida. On October 6, 1970, a number of students, including James, were slow in leaving the stage of the school auditorium when asked to do so by a teacher. The school principal, Willie J. Wright, Jr., took James and the other students to his office to be paddled. When James protested, claiming his innocence, Lemmie Deliford, the assistant principal, and Solomon Barnes, an assistant to the principal, were called in.
Q. Do you remember if he told you how many times he was going to beat you?
A. Started off with five, then he went up to twenty. ... "




Finally the recollections of an Eight year old in the 70's :-


"Our playground was a slab of asphalt with a white line down the middle; the girls had one side and the boys had the other. You couldn't cross the line or there would be paddling.

Talking in class? Paddling. Playing with paper footballs? Paddling. Some of the guys got paddled so much, they took to folding up several sheets of paper and putting them in back pockets to absorb the blows.

The teachers had holes drilled in their paddles to make them more aerodynamic. If you were a frequent spankee, you could sign the paddle."





The world was a different place.....in a different time........

Economists might put this clash of perception down to 'adaptive expectations theory' in other words over time people's perception of what is 'acceptable' changes, and new standards become incrementally accepted .Over time this can lead to a significant shift in public perception . This doesn't just work in pure economics, for example as long as thirty years ago minford and Peel used it to provide a model of voter intent which has pretty much stood the test if time. (Minford and Peel NIESR/LUP 1979)

I on the other hand experienced this punishment once and left the market . coming back into the 'market' today , ( to extend the analogy), thirty plus years later, i find it difficult to understand the magnitude of the shift of expectations.

Perhaps its no more than the old schoolmaster's fall back ' Hurt , boy , of course it hurts....it's supposed to....' . That may not have changed over the years , but custom , practice and expectation has. It would be interesting to know whether Dr. Dominum has noticed this trend, in other words a weakening or softening of the boys he deals with, or is it their parents and societal expectation? Maybe its all to do with, as they would say in the Deep South ' grit in your belly and spit in your eye' , or otherwise? Perhaps we put it all down to the decline in school Dodge Ball!....or as Johnny Cash said

' If I'd have known you longer,
you would have been a little stronger, and
maybe you'd shoot straighter than you do....'

Finally one other counter point, whilst the arguments over whether girls should ever receive corporal punishment rage on , it is interesting to see it argued here (AW's link ) that rather more girls (presumably proportionately) over time have opted FOR licks...........is this also because the regime has softened, and if so does this then exacerbate this trend further ?

Thanks prof n. I look forward to your psostings and more so now with the handbook in progress. prof n as always fetishist weigh in on matters just Google paddles with holes and varnish or spanking paddle a multitude of merchants flog their product. High school miscreants dont always wear the clothes that protect them best but that is the way the cookie crumbles. Amber Page (Corpun August 1999). I agree the holes unless the children are scantily clad physically doesnt matter unless its bedtime. It does seem intimidating physics to the contrary.

Ambers school still has CP but parents have a form to fill out annually in the bilingual student handbook online. You shouldnt judge a book by the cover but she looks like a brat when pouting and acted like one on the Friday trying to hide padding to soften her two lick paddling instead of five in most schools. It takes points to become a cheerleader and demerits to be paddled so I'm not moved to tears for her nor the administration. Good for them for not caving.

Beveled holes might not counter the shearing effect that applies to the cane if the student was scantily clad. From the tales of those who have been paddled the holes hurt more and I would imagine that would also apply to the tales of the tails of the tawse. Girls are less likely to wear jeans to school than boys.

Malaysia seems aware of gender concerns by having the boys getting caned on the seat and the girls on the hands. Maybe the boys should get the paddle and the girls the tawse but only if I can track down that BBC training video. That will take away the boredom factor as seen in the Everman Junior High video. IMHO once the parents sign the form the only choice that should matter is whether they choose to behave.

prof n youre preaching to the choir about coddling kids. The you cant make me child is getting his or her own wish at home and at school but not in TWP elementary school. Behavior isnt getting any better but biologically they havent change that much not counting the growing problem of childhood obesity. Keep them coming. We can turn our suggestions over to the girls at TWP for their reaction.

William Michaelian, a contemporary of mine wrote a short essay entitled Board of Education available online. It mentions a paddle with holes. Sorry prof n Im not leaning in that direction. It might be a distraction to fight that battle. IMHO you got too many licks Corpun mentions one school that sets the limit at seven but most five. Its odd that after three the numbers all become odd. Eight is enough. Two, four, six, eight who do you, appreciate?

Hi American Way, thanks for your comments.

Just a couple of points for clarity......

Firstly , I'm not arguing that one ought today to use 'holed ' paddles, even though I have great reservations about the publicity they receive. What I am interested in is understanding the logic of where both the pro and anti cp deviates are going in the States, for with the greatest respect to my American friends it seems to an outsider they are dealing with much of the ephemera of the debate, to the detriment of the main issues,.

Let me indicate what I mean. In the 1970 's , Florida upheld as not excessive 20 and 50 swat paddlings respectively, administered in school. In the case of the 20 swat where the court record are open, in the most horrendous conditions of forced submission ans intimidation. Other cases of the period, also failing to result in convictions elsewhere in the States include a child paddled on the side of the head and needing ER treatment including operation under anaesthesia. There were reports of a whole group of boys given enforced swats in a rest room by a member of staff who appeared out of control..At this time the number of permitted licks varied, many states allowing up to 12 , some less , but some in excess..... ( infinitely flexible in s certsin Counties it appears , where you can be 'sentenced' to five and end up with 20)..I could continue. , but I think the point is well made. Matters were basically unregulated. , and grossly unsatisfactory.

Today the situation looks more acceptable. Most school districts regulate the number of licks, as you say with five seeming to be a maximum, and three or even two more usual.

But what has not changed is that the regulation of HOW the licks(swats pops whatever)are given has not been clarified. . Important issues, like radius of swing, positioning ( hand in the small of the back to prevent excessive force), safety stance for the 'subject' etc have been largely ignored , and this is the problem. For whilst paddling can be done effectively and safely , these criteria have been ignored in favour of issues such as holes, sex of the paddler, etc. which still leaves us in the unsatisfactory position where a 250/300 lb principal can whack almost anyway he likes. Look in the 1970's I could be paddled 10 times which you have said ( by today's standards) would be seen as excessive. Yet I will evidence that it was far less painful than six of the best , which was routinely applied, as I guess Dr. Dominium will confirm , across a wide range of offences in those days.

What I am saying is that it is possible for an irresponsible Principal today to seriously damage a student, purely by brute force .: in many cases without crossing the abuse line in term of regulation or law. Doubtless many 5 lick punishments may be more severe, bruise more , and risk permanent damge , where my 10 licks did not....because of restraint and regualtion , allbeit voluntary.... But a responsible trained paddler doesn't do damage even with giving twice today's 'permitted' swats, if they are applied within the typology or framework suggested by , amongst others TWP.

I don't want to go over old ground but I believe one of the reasons is because of the different skills needed to cane or to paddle.

So my question is why has the obvious been ignored and the esoteric concentrated upon? Why has good practice not spread across the 'red' States, or in many cases even within them ? If you can't do this then the tanks of the abolitionists will come and park on the lawns of your State legislatures, and with good reason , just as the examples of bad practice in the schools of the UK were a gift to STOPP.

I'm not saying you need Spenser paddles, but there seems to have been very little evidence that these caused any more complaints than good ol' hickory boards....but if you don't regulate the administration of paddling it will be like turning the cows out into the corn..I'm not saying you need ten swat punishments to stop kids buying fags ( though , as Miss f said when a year or so later, when , in the sixth form , I was debating against he in support of 'progressive' solutions,' You never bought any more cigarettes did you?' 'No Ma'am!' 'Well there you go... QED!') : but already we see the next ground of abolition by a thousand cuts- the inability to defend paddling in High School, where, as a matter of fact it may do most good.....but only when used as a short sharp reminder, not with danger and humiliation. But that's an argument for another day.......!!!!!.

Para 3 line 3 deviates should read debates....
switched predictive text on in error, thought I had caught all the gremlins...obviously not!

Point well taken about uniformity. All the red states may not be on the same page but conglomerating the counties into one state policy makes sense and allows accontability and enforecablity from the same agency. Maybe the state prisoners instead of making license plates could make uniform paddles, like Bogonor canes and Lochlegy tawses and there are enough to choose from on online to use as a template but I wouldn't want them to access those sites.

I agree the holes are an ancillary and a distracting issue. If all the teachers watched the same video and they police each other defacto by rotating witness and adnministrators that should put everone on the same playing field. Lastly I did like the regulations acted out in the anti CP appropriated video. I'm sure a tape can include safety demonstrations and can even show Congresswoman Bobbi Fiedler showed thirty tears ago already posted here. Fiedler lived closer to San Francisco and served about the same time as Shirley Temple Black did nearer to Los Angelos. Shirley took some on the silver screen but Bobbi for the camera for a pro CP position in a very blue state. She didn't mind taking one for the gipper. I think Pelosi would be a Nancy.

Wow, that really is what I call a long link, American Way!

I asume the above effect wasn't intentional, so in case you are wondering what happened, you missed out that vital HTML tag closing </a> at the end of your short form 'Previously posted' link.

The system eventually inserted it for you, but only at the very end of your post.

Worth perusing on the instruments of correction only. Those schools who have banned corporal punishment are facing a crisis due to todays economy. To be fined or paddled Judge Garza Brownsville Texas deja vu all over. I didn't approve of that "Judge".

First story Instrument of Correction:

Slipper, cane or paddle. Just Google Today April 26 Musings school corporal punishment.

Second story Today's Economy:

Two school board members want parents of high school students who are habitually sent to detention to pay. They said the school district spends $10,000 a year in overtime and maintenance to run detention, and that the students who are there all the time should help to pay.

Ouch that hurts the pocketbook more than the back pocket which you better check if it has a penny in it when you paddle or it will cost you a pretty penny.

BTW. New Jersey was one of the first states to ban CP maybe they should be the first to bring it back. The town is called Nutley.

The last time I referred this site it was not well received from this estimable Forum because of the nature of its content.

I think it is a matter of the proverbial baby and the bath water. I am giving it another try and let you be the judge. Pay attention to that page you don't have to get into the whole site you may find it worthy of perusal. Google: How to strap, paddle and cane and you will find topics discussed here with insights from their unique perspective.

As often with adult sites you can stumble across them simply by searching and in this case cane and paddle and voila. When you enter the site (Chicago Spanking Review) you're right dab in the center of an adult content site. Interestingly enough I am placing it in this thread because among other things it confirms prof n experience when it assess equivalent punishment of one to three strokes to five to ten swats. If it was unfair I think the one on the receiving end would object.

I guess the American Way is the kinder and gentler way.

prof n I said in the previous post concerning the one to three cane compared to five to ten paddle but that was from reading an adult site. I know full well that the force of the inflictor and the size of the instrument of correction play an unknown factor. For convenience I am placing it in this thread to show equivalency and to take back what I said.

Now having seen the second daily motion caning as referred to as a modern caning similar to Dr Dominum would you still hold to that ratio? Comparing Australia and the southern states by today syandards would you reveise your calculus? Six of one and a half a dozen of another but not an order of magnitude different. Absenting a dolometer I would also say that Crystel's caning in the realistiic thread would correspond to the pain generated from the first dailymotion video. And again they would be hard pressed if asked to choose between the two.

There was a realistic video of twice as many swats that was available and posted here until it was taken down for copyright infringement. Rachel would IMHO would find it just as difficult to sit as the lad in the modern caning below and they would be hard pressed to choose between the cane or the paddle.

I think Nancy Guillen getting three more or Renee's Nashia's five swats would be about the same as six strokes from Dr Dominum today. I know (apples and oranges) but Nancy (by the sounds of it) is not a reenactment. Renee gives a description of her paddling of Nashia in TWP that by her description doesn't seem all that different from Dr Dominum's modern caning. They are the two teachers that legally inflict pain in a measured manner that post on this estimable Forum and they both understandably choose to post under a pseudonym. I think we all agree they're neither inauthentic nor brutal. I'm not sure I would say the same if we were to judge Dr Dominum's earlier years of caning (not the modern caning) compared to today. He swung with the times.

Dr Dominum Contemporary Australian Caning


Steve Halter Contemporary American Paddling

Hi American Way ,


Of course you have a point .

For those who didn't read my piece ( scroll back to June 27th at 5.31 local) I reproduce the controversial bit ;

Years later , when we were able to laugh about it , she did say comparing the two methods, she considered one stroke of the best equivalent to two 'normal' licks with the paddle. A normal stroke of the senior cane would be more painful that one swat, but two swats much more than one stroke of the senior . She said in her view that night I chose sensibly.

This was the 70's. She was saying the MAXIMUM swats allowed in her state at that time (12) were equivalent to six of the best ( old style).IMHO Either was extremely painful. In the event I got 10 swats instead of six of the best, somewhat less. It was obviously painful because I cursed on several licks towards the end.she told me I took it very well, but that wasn't hard in comparison to my partner in crime, her daughter, who started yelling and blubbering BEFORE the first lick fell...........

She has confirmed on many occasions that contrary to my 'belief' about how stoical were all were, most boys getting six of the best were 'in bits' by the end. So when I did get six of the best from the Head, I made things much worse for myself believing the myth that you mustn't show emotion because that was cowardice......I bottled it up, and got out quick....which nonplussed him ,because I wasn't particularly tough...... ah but the power of myth and ideology, plus mind over matter!

The modern caning ( say minimum three strokes maximum six- but not the best even today )looks to me more what she would have called a shot across the bows.......that was three to five with the paddle .

So I would agree with your 'odd' site in that traditionally six of the best was far more painful than six of the paddle, but I guess in modern idiom things are moving 'more to the centre, and this towards equivalence.

If you read my current posting on the 'reality thread, you will see my view on her caning in comparison.

I was not intending to become involved with the matter of equivalence or otherwise between the cane and the paddle, but I think there is an important factor missing from the discussion. It is the nature of the pain experienced.

From my own experience, there is a difference between the pain when you fall on your backside on the ice in a skating rink and the pain when you bang your elbow on the handle of the door; between the pain when you bang your thumb with a hammer and the pain of a paper cut.

The pain caused by a cane is totally different from that caused by a blunt implement such as a paddle. One is intense for a short period, the other gnaws away for longer. It is almost impossible to compare them.

As I have said elsewhere, I favour a short, sharp punishment that is easily understood, quickly over and wipes the slate clean.

Hi HCJ,

Agree entirely, my quote taken from the post referenced above on this very post :

How did it (paddle) compare to the cane? Well the pain is qualitatively different, being overwhelmingly blunt and bruising , with initial sting, rather than the biting, fiery, intense , deeper pain of a 'best' stroke of the cane ( I guess its all to do with kinetic energy , surface area, elasticity , and so on ....)

QED

Re: Paddle vs cane pain thud or sting (twiddly dee and tweedly dum) and with all due respect to my friend prof n one swallow does not a spring make as this article attests from a frequent recipient Kailee to the effects of each instrument of correction. Leave it to the "no spank" web site to turn this article into making every teacher who paddles into a sadistic pervert. I won't have men paddling girls to stop giving them fodder for cartoonists. From what prof n lady friend said many men prefer not to anyway (I wouldn't) and if girls feel awkward about it like a physical or as the Texan girl said it's just not right it makes sense for me to modify the Winona handbook. I will link you to the Denver Newspaper rather than Jeff Charles et al anti CP zealots. Why waste your time on their site when you can go directly to the site of this 2005 story? Megan Lowry fictional essay spoke of the numbing effect but a lot good that did her. Whether she got the accounts from naughty girls or naughty sites one must never gainsay the after effects brought on by sitting on school chairs in public schools or church pews in Christian ones. Maybe punishment shouldn't be just get it over and clean the slate but a gentle or not so gentle reminder may modify behavior by reinforcing the message and isn't that what learning lessons is all about? BTW it explains the signing of the paddles but not the Megan Lowry.

www.westword.com/2005-05-19/music/spanks-for-the-memories/

Agreed, one swallow doesn't . How does the link at 'Any Comments' 3.22 local today compare to your previous views?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dI4vO0w0VLo

Nashia want to trade places? Twiddly dee twiddly dum. Both bottoms - equally sore. Ask Renee?

http://uk.video.yahoo.com/watch/3411212/9527008