At the risk of suffering spousal abuse for not doing so, I apologize for sharing the disciplined feminists site in the target of our CP intentions thread. I know it is too late to change matters but it is an adult fetish site and I do not want this forum and I'm sure my kindred spirits would agree that this esteem Forum should and with the quality of our posters will never degenerate to be used as a portal for pornography. The fact that it wasnt was the very reason why I became attracted to this site and now look at what I just did.

I find the article so well written I would feel remiss if I didn't copy and paste and share. In spite of the plethora of feminine pseudonyms its refreshing to read an unconventional woman's view. Sexualizing corporal punishment for weal or for woe has been very much apart of culture and more so the West as seen by our literature, scholarly abstracts and editorials. Albeit longer than a DD posting I found it worth reading and I thought it was worth starting another thread as well. Although I prefaced the first posting with a caveat my wife did not think it was wise that I linked it at all. DD now you can read this without entering this site. A discussion ensued among the women in her office that watched the Principal Office program that has been shown in repeats on what use to be called Court TV and is now called Tru Tv. I hope this thread does not die on the vine like others I've started but because it touches on many issues I would argue were on topic. I'm sure, given the long history of this esteem Forum these issues have been raised but not within the context of a USA school paddling by a man and a 16 year old girl and as of last month became I'm sure the most famous graduate of Booneville High School in Arkansas Class of 2009.

The Courage to Submit: An Unlikely Role Model

Okay, after several articles exploring all the serious psychology behind DD (domestic discipline) it seems time to lighten things up a bit.

Note that this article will make much more sense if you first CLICK HERE to view the video that inspired it.

Of course, I enjoyed this clip immensely. For starters, it's a rare example of the sort of thing we women who are DD-inclined spend a lot of time fantasizing about: a real-life example of a young, attractive woman being spanked by a nurturing but stern older man.

But beyond the erotic power of this video being about a real person in a real disciplinary situation, this video caught my attention in another, even more compelling, way. The more I watched it, the more I realized that Nancy, the "star" of the video, was in many ways, the person I aspire to be both in life and in DD/disciplinary situations.

For starters, Nancy is attractive and very feminine. She is, we learn, a beauty queen -- Miss Booneville 2008. By definition, an archetype of femininity. That her excuse for her repeated lateness to school involves being a "lady" who needs extra time to get ready further reinforces this archetype. I'm reminded of John F. Kennedy's remark about Jackie's lateness to a social event: "Mrs. Kennedy is organizing herself. She takes longer than we do, but then again, she looks better than we do when she's finished." Powerful iconic images of femininity are invoked here. This is a young woman who, consciously or not, taps into many women's most deeply-cherished images of what it means to be female.

Nancy's dilemma re: the extra inconvenience of being female is mirrored sympathetically by Principal Halter, who sympathizes with a smile that "he's spent half of his life waiting for women to get ready." Relieved, Nancy believes she's going to avoid a punishment because she has used her feminine wiles to charm her would-be disciplinarian. This is fantasy fulfillment, too, of course -- we often long for our disciplinarian to understand and forgive us our transgression because we are so charming, rather than holding us accountable.

But deep down, most of us also realize that if we were to be forgiven without punishment, a big part of us would feel let down, unsafe, incomplete. Justice must be done for us to feel balanced. Nancy herself acknowledges with a small smile that even though half the student body is female, presumably with the same necessity to get ready that she has, "they're not late." She is admitting here her need for justice and fairness. In an indirect way, she is asking to be punished and admitting that she deserves it.

It's clear that Nancy is nervous about what's to come, of course. Her body language and nervous smiles and winces make it fairly clear that she knows she's not going to get out of being punished. And yet when Principal Halter offers her the choice of a paddling or a half day's detention, she keeps her cool. Instead of flinching, panicking or begging for mercy, she does something that I, at least, found surprisingly courageous and adventurous for a 16-year old teenage beauty queen facing what is apparently her first paddling. She asks to see the paddle.

How brave, how empowered this is! How inspirational, really, for Nancy to keep her cool in this most embarrassing situation enough to have the presence of mind to inspect the implement of her humiliation before making her decision. This is real-life girl power in action. It's clear that Principal Halter is also taken aback and perhaps even impressed by her chutzpah. His smile as he tells her to "have at it" and indicates the paddle on his desk seems to reflect at least a little admiration.

But Nancy doesn't just "see" the paddle. She picks it up and tests its weight, obviously imagining how it will feel on her bottom. Then she experimentally swings it in a mock swat. In picking up the paddle and swinging it, she becomes an active, rather than a passive, participant in her punishment. In this moment, she empowers herself and shifts from victim to willing partner in her punishment.

"Wow," she says as she holds the paddle, "I actually have your paddle in my hands." she jokes, with apparent genuine delight. Despite the seriousness of the situation, she finds humor and the self-confidence to see the fun of the situation. As Principal Halter laughs, she is able to share a moment of companionship with her "executioner." To take matters further, she is even able to come up with a pun: "This is disciplinary action," she says as she swings the paddle. Here is a girl who can laugh as she faces the chopping block - a modern heroine in the spirit of Mary of Scots telling her executioner that she hopes he has good aim.

While still holding the paddle, Nancy announces that she will take the three swats and the half day of detention to "get it over with." That she does this while still holding the paddle feels especially empowered -- she makes her decision while holding the symbol of that decision -- claiming, in a sense, her pain. And notice the confidence with which she makes that choice. She never, not once, tries to negotiate for more leniency or plead her way out of her punishment.

In addition, I was struck by the clear, confident way in which she says potentially embarrassing words like "paddle" or "three licks." She doesn't seem to feel there's anything shameful and degrading about discussing this subject. Instead, the whole attitude surrounding being paddled feels matter-of-fact and respectful.

This is perhaps an issue unique to me, but even after years of discussing these things with my partner and writing about them on the blog, I still have difficulty saying words like "paddle," "discipline," "punishment" and "swats" out loud, feeling that somehow in doing so, I am debasing myself. This reluctance is a source of frustration to both myself and my partner, because it's difficult to have an actual, adult conversation about what I need and want without an awful lot of hesitation and stuttering and vague euphemisms. But here is a 16-year old girl who can say these words without hesitation or apparent shame. (Later on, she adds with equal confidence that she'll just have to "take her punishment.")

Having been told that she has until Friday to decide for sure whether she'll choose the paddle or a full day of detention, Nancy smiles and genuinely, even happily says, "thank you" to the principal for offering her the choice as to how she wants to be disciplined. There doesn't seem to be any irony or petulance in her thank you. She seems genuinely grateful and appreciative of his time and energy in meting out punishment. And she seems more relaxed and confident on her way out the door than she did on her way in -- despite the fact that she's facing a certain punishment.

Friday comes, and Nancy is back along with about six other students to receive her paddling. Although she smiles nervously upon entering the office and it's clear she's scared, she is consistently courageous and in charge of her own decision to take the swats. Even when Principal Halter gives her another chance to get out of it, she doesn't back out, although the look on her face suggests clearly that she's scared. And indeed, she does express doubt as to the wisdom of her decision.

Nancy is the only girl to have selected a paddling instead of day-long detention. Waiting outside the principal's office along with the boys for her turn to be paddled, she is now in a situation where she will be pressured to act as courageously as the boys who are in for the same punishment. To get over her fear, she seems to find strength in her femininity. In an alternate take from the same documentary (CLICK HERE TO SEE IT), she offers comfort and support to a boy also waiting to be paddled -- putting her own fears aside to offer nurturing to him.

When Principal Halter opens the door and asks her if she's ready, she pauses a moment to gather her courage and silently enters the office -- the picture of courage in the face of doubt, fear and impending pain and embarrassment. Nancy maintains her dignity and self-respect in a situation in which one might expect anyone, much less a 16-year old girl who's never been paddled before, to fall apart completely.

Once Nancy enters the principal's office, we don't see what happens, but we get to hear the swats being administered. Although the swats sound pretty severe, other than a small "ouch," she takes her punishment bravely and apparently obediently.

Walking out of the office after her paddling, Nancy even manages a small smile for the camera. I can't help but feel that while this is partly to cover her embarrassment, there's also an element here of pride in her having overcome her fears and going through with the paddling -- one of the few kids in the clip with the courage to do so.

Although we do see her rubbing her bottom as she walks away, Nancy tells the interviewer that the paddling wasn't as bad as she thought it would be She has discovered that the fear of the unknown is worse than the actual object of fear itself.

Most importantly, throughout the clip, it seems clear to me that Nancy in no way associates submitting to justly-earned punishment with a loss of self-respect or self-worth. In fact, it seems the opposite is true -- in submitting to discipline with dignity and courage, she has affirmed her self-worth and her identity as someone who can survive an embarrassing or painful situation and come out stronger on the other side.

Nancy is, for me, the model of how to take a punishment and come out the other side a stronger, better, more attractive and feminine person than she was before. Her example is one that I would like to keep in mind and emulate in similar situations in my own life -- both literally when facing a spanking, and throughout my life when facing difficult or embarrassing situations.

PS -- By the way, it probably shouldn't go without saying that Principal Halter does a terrific job in his role as disciplinarian. He's kind, sympathetic and nurturing -- but it's also clear from the get-go that there's no way he's going to let her out of her punishment or give her less than he feels she's got coming. And while this could be a very humiliating experience for Nancy, he consistently shows her with respect by including her as a partner in her own punishment rather than treating her like a passive victim. His matter-of-fact approach to inflicting the paddling, I suspect, does much to contribute to Nancy's ability to come out of the experience more empowered than when she went in.

June 8 at 6:04 under USA Student Handbook Spanking my link showed the efforts of a school to prevent forgery. Parents can opt out of CP for their child and this kid's mother didn't. An interesting discussion ensues on this very topic. I liked the best answer the kids chose. What would you do if you were 15 under the same circumstances? IMHO A more painful lesson will be in store if she gets away twice with cheating. For her own good I hope learn that cheaters never prosper while the consequences are relatively mild. They've seen a side of her that at 15 is not too old to fix. I'm glad her peers are directing her in the right direction and hope like Nancy she will find the courage to submit.

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090424113135AAPSEu6

I do not believe a 16 year old girl has the experience to make a decision such as that. Assuming that you believe that she has then she should have insisted a female teacher administer the paddling with perhaps another female teacher to witness same.

http://www.wafb.com/Global/story.asp?S=10498148

The parents are well awate of whatever gender considerations are put into play and that should factor into their decison. So that really is a moot issue. The anti CP zealots are hoping to get their way in Louisianam (above link). As usual while the state legislators, supposedly more enlightened, are trying to assert their will upon the "yokel locals".

The local professional feelings are evident in this April 2008 story that appeared in Corpun 20128,

Good new. Hot off the press from Louisiana.

www.2theadvocate.com/news/48214842.html

Louisiana rejected the law it end school corporal punishment on Tuesday, June 16 and Im not surprised given the reaction of professionals. Even though only 1 out 60 students is paddled it is 5th in the nation percentage wise with 17,080 students on the receiving end. Can that many teachers be wrong? I think not. I wonder how many valuable class hours of schooling would have been lost. OTOH I think coming to school on Saturday is a good alternative to corporal punishment if need be. Kids do have jobs; extra curricular activity, family trips on weekends so it makes sense to have that option.

This girl sounds like she is minimizing her offense. She seems self righteous. She is a gambler but not an honest one. Unlike Nancy who thinks she should be treated like everyone else. You would think she was the only one who dreads pain. Her sense of entitlement doesnt set well with me. She is 15 and is too young to quit. We have a daughter and I would like to think that mine would be more like Nancy. I would rather have a daughter who didnt get up on time over a cheat and more so if she was a forger and trying to make a fool out of her parents!!! She would be grounded for months. Wouldnt you do the same? If you ask me she wrote knowing that most readers had never been on the receiving end and could get sympathy. If you were 15 would you even think about forging your signature and as a parent how would you react if the school called you asking you if you signed? I think she forged it? I dont think she will muster up the courage to submit. What do you think?

Should I forge my mom's signature?
I am 15 and a sophomore in high school in Louisiana. I am (for context, not to brag) a good kid--never in trouble, on the honor roll, a class officer, play soccer, homecoming court etc etc. One of my best friends was really struggling with math, so today I helped her cheat on a test. I have never done anything like this before, and feel quite bad about it. I also should be clear that I, myself, did not cheat (I helped her cheat).

We got caught and both got 0's on the test. My teacher also sent me home with a corporal punishment consent form. My mom is NOT a super traditonal, conservative parent.....BUT she is really really big on supporting the school, and has always been clear that if I ever were to get in trouble and I knew the rules ahead of time, I would have noone but myself to blame and she would back the school up. Rather or not ya'll agree with her (beside the point) I know she will/would sign the form. Meanwhile, I TRULY already feel bad for what I did, and I really really really don't want to be paddled (I'm a total wimp about pain and have never been in big trouble at school).

What I'm asking is, would it be HORRIBLE of me to sign her name to the form (checking no instead of yes), take my two detentions instead of the paddling, learn my lesson, and move on? If I was a bad kid who gets in trouble I'd say that the consequences I knew about based on school rules of cheating need to happen, but I've never even had detention---I already feel bad about what I did. So what is the point of being embarrased and (more importantly) getting a paddling??

I empathise both generally and personally with the theme of this posting.


I am struck nowadays by the attempts to 'keep young adults ( often boys as well as girls), children until 17 years and 364 days old'. Surely the growth to adulthood takes place through a process of maturation , over a number of years. , not overnight. Our society seems to draw a dividing line during that last 24 hours of childhood. One side you are not responsible : the other side and you are. There are illogicalities of course, joining the army before you are allowed to smoke or drink ; and those who would argue for the vote at 16, help select a government , but you will not be fully accountable under the laws they pass, until 18.

However it seems to me that accepting responsibility for what you do, and for any punishment that goes with it certainly used to be seen as part of that process. As I have written elsewhere ( and I won't repeat all the gory details), I was about 14/15 or so when I first became aware that in my school ( UK Independent ; boys day and boarding) there was a 'no cane' list. I soon understood that I was 'on it' , Firstly because I was right at the top of the A stream ; and the top 10 or so academic stars in the A stream were always 'protected' in this way, and secondly because I was from a single parent family (my father had died young) and the school found women' more difficult to deal with over these issues ( translation : might withdraw the child if he were caned. ; doubly problematic if he was bright).I was really enraged.

Not that I had any desire to be caned, the opposite was true, particularly , because only the senior staff caned , and this meant it was done 'properly' as our friend Dr. D might see it , ., but because it seemed iniquitous, that such a decision should be taken without any discussion or negotiation with the person most intimately concerned. Moreover as you grew older in the school , and hadn't been tested by the fire of caning, you began to believe the more outlandish 'school stories' of how terrible it was, which reinforced your commitment to on the one hand remaining privileged , but being classified , on the other hand , as a total wimp

I spoke to everyone, form master, house master, the lot, no help, indeed some even denied the existence of a list. It was only when a new female deputy head ( Miss F ) was drafted in ( from our sister girls school they had the luxury of two deputy posts) to cover the long term illness of the incumbent , that I discovered the truth. She simply showed me my name in her so called staff 'blue book' ( a student listing with annotations, one of which was to identify students who were not to be caned ). As this was England in the 70's it was actually green , not blue!!!!
.
I knew this lady , as I had been learning the guitar as extra curricula study with her for some time, and , whilst we got on really well, she had told me a couple of times I really should 'toughen up' a bit if I wanted to succeed. . She had taught in the US for a while , - south of the Mason Dixon, and had no hang ups about corporal punishment. Any girls at the sister school needing caning were dealt with by her, and she had no worries in the other direction about equal opportunities! Indeed her reputation in my school was soon established as an accurate and very hard caner. Moreover she had studied adolescent psychology at post graduate level , gaining a doctorate , and was therefore more than a match for the Head and the school establishment. She listened to me, and took up my case, having satisfied herself there was no underlying psychological or other reason why I should not be caned.. In fact she seemed the only one who understood why I didn't want to be 'different'.

In the end I was caned by her, ( no one else who was authorised , would , I think have taken the 'risk') and , as , I assume empirically it apparently did no harm , indeed afterwards I was told my general attitude in and towards the school improved markedly, I was removed, very reluctantly , by the Head from the safety of the' no cane' list.

Interestingly , well at least in retrospect, the Head never actually saw me to discuss this, I simply got the message from Miss F ( If you were wondering of course it SHOULD have been ~Doctor F....but it never was...a little residual male chauvinism ...I wonder...) as deputy that, as I had requested, my days of 'protection' were well and truly over.

My form master was livid, and told me I had 'selfishly' exposed my academic peers to the possibility that the whole policy of exempting 'top performing' students might be reviewed. A caning may not have broken you lad, was his view , but it might not be so easy for some on the list . Actually, he was way off the mark, it had hurt me considerably, no very considerably more than I anticipated, and , to be fair Miss F warned me that she intended it would, ( you just can't know the unknown ), but I was , yes, proud that I got through it without breaking. She also seemed quite pleased with me , or at least relieved! She must have been , later that year she trusted me enough to let me date her only daughter! With Miss F's reputation, this, if they needed any further proof, convinced my old wimpish friends I was completely mad as a hatter.!

The important issue in this regard is that throughout the interview and punishment ( which was for a series of 'minor' infractions , plus that 'golden oldie' that never dates- 'General Attitude' ) she made it clear it was my choice to go ahead...at any time I could have aborted the punishment. Of course I didn't , amongst many other reasons I respected her too much to challenge her decision. But getting through that caning was a significant step for me. It changed my social experience of school , I left what she would have called my wimpish friends behind and ultimately became quite 'cool' having a much more fulfilling life as a consequence, even agreeing to 'board' during part of my latter time at the school , something I would never have dared contemplated in earlier days, and becoming recognised as a school 'politico' ( rather dangerous occupation in those days)

So I do believe that older kids, boys or girls, should have some control or option on their punishments , subject to control and no obvious reason to believe they will be harmed. Yes and it can be the right thing for them to test their mettle in a fairly carefully controlled way. Protection is a parents frequent first response , to protect the child from harm or pain, but the world isn't a forgiving place, and it can be no bad thing to learn that, providing the lesson takes place in a supportive framework. After all a caning or paddling is no great shakes in comparison to what they may face in the army , police or other services, at an age not much greater. School is , in many ways a dry run for life proper.

Wrap them in cotton wool in school and the awakening is all that harder......Give them the option to mess up and face controlled consequences, and they may not mess up when it really matters.

One state that doesn't wrap their in cotton wool is Mississipi in the land of cotton where the last ten years paddlings have modestly decline from 10% to 7.5%. Since my June 8th posting under Southern Handbooks there has been an exchange that ensued on this very issue this past Wednesday and Thursday. I think the state legislature should have a say in the way corporal punishment especially in requiring parental permission in the North Carolina Bill not on whether it be used.

http://www.ncleg.net/sessions/2009/bills/house/pdf/h442v2.pdf

Posted by: Michele2000 on 6/18/09

Regardless of why students choose corporal punishment in the first
place, I have to agree that it works. The district where I went used it
a lot, but I was never faced with the choice until the last semester of
my junior year. I had been in very minor trouble once or twice but had
gotten away with warnings or lunch detentions.

One morning I was running late to school and decided to park in the
teachers' lot, thinking there were extra spaces and it would not be
noticed. However, I got a ticket and a choice between "Saturday School"
and a paddling.

I choose the paddling maimly because of a track meet I was running in on
that Saturday and also because I didn't want my parents to know I had
been in any trouble.

There is something about sitting in the office waiting with everyone
there knowing you are about to get it that is soo scaring and
embarassing that you never want to get in that situation again. Then
when the Vice Principal came out with a large wooden paddled and
motioned me into his office, I wanted to change my mind but I thought it
was too late.

I only got three licks, but they sounded like firecrackers going off and
felt like my butt had been set on fire. Walking back out through the
office afterwards with everyone trying to hide their smiles was even
more embarassment.

There was something about the whole experience that had more of a
deterrent effect that 50 Saturday Schools ever would have. That was
almost ten years ago and I don't think I have parked illegally since!


On 6/17/09, that doesnt quite make sense wrote:
I am a fan of using corporal punishment with younger kids that don't
have the reasoning skills to understand, but do you honestly think
that because the kids choose it, it is the more effective option?
They choose it b/c it is over and done with and they don't have a
long term consequence. They don't want Saturday detention b/c that
would be true inconvenience.

On 6/17/09, Big Beth wrote:
I have taught high school for over 25 years and there is no doubt
that the most effective form of punishment in this age group is a paddling. It doesn't matter the student's race, gender, class
rank, wealth--whatever. It works and it is actually what the
students prefer. We use it for tardies and over 90% choose a
paddling over Saturday detention.

I have heard the argument that the "long term consequences" of
corporal punishment are bad, even if it works in the short run.
The only long term consequences I have observed are a better and
more respectful attitude.

I also am not persuaded that corporal punishment is bad because
students wind up with a sore fanny for a few days. That is
actually the point and partly why it works.

Regardless whether you agree with corporal punishment or not it is completely wrong for a non-female teacher to administer corporal punishment to a girl.


Surely it would be relatively easy to find a female teacher to do it.

Heather: You're spot on and the overwhelming number of schools insists that either a woman paddles the girl or at the very least a woman be present as a witness (Everman Texas on the NEw York Times and CBS . Even those that don't say it in their handbooks insists on the same. There was a famous case Shelley Gasperhson in North Caolina 16 years ago that ended the practice of not having a woman present as a witness. It's a no brainer not to have one and it's a rarity today except in Christisan schools (you figure. A man may be the only one who paddles because it happened to be a man (N.B.) as a principal but great efforts are made often to regulate the size of the paddle and limit the number of those who do it for uniformity reasons. I have said in a previous post that it was possible but hardly probable that a first year teacher at 21 could paddle a senior girl which of course I don't think has happened even with same gender. That would be hard for a parent to swallow and would make national handlines if it did!!! Even if handbooks don't say it like "Everman" with the paddling witnessed in New York Times in reality prohibit it by practice.

I hope the Malaysian model, Kartika Sari Dewi Shukarnor (aka Stella Artois) is indeed caned to encourage the believers to abide by their own takes her punishment Ill commend her as well. To her credit she hasnt lawyered up like the others try to save their hides by endless appeals. The model is 32 years old, married with two children and help support her family by modeling. She has laudably shown more concern with the disgrace she is bringing to her family and trying to put her sinful ways behind her the sooner the better. She give new meaning about hitting bottom in recovery. Her father supports her decision not to appeal while her husband has invoked Islamic law interpretation to let him punish her himself. What else would you expect him to do?

I don't buy for one moment that she will be hit as softly as an errant school girl because this involves expensive time consuming formalities and a reprieve from jail time. Why would the two brothers from 2005 carry on with an appeal and they never spent a day in jail? The logistics of having them detained also applied to them. The Islamic officials are minimizing, rationalizing and justifying for the sake of appeasing the west. For God sake they dont believe in the Ten Commandments, thou shall not kill never mind flay. Like Charlie Pride sang what goes behind close doors. Gentle whippings rank up there with being a little bit pregnant with that lot.

She may soon belong in this thread I dedicated to those noble souls who have the courage to submit and join Nancy Guillen in that exclusive pantheon. Shamefully, no man has measured up as of yet.

Nik Aziz (fox news) for background praised Kartika in New Straits Time latest issue.

http://www.nst.com.my/Current_News/NST/articles/11goog/Article/index_html

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,306658,00.html

Hi American Way You say:

I don't buy for one moment that she will be hit as softly as an errant school girl because this involves expensive time consuming formalities and a reprieve from jail time.

As I've said in the other thread on this subject, in the case of Kartika Sari Dewi Shukarnor the jail time was the alternative to paying the RM5000 fine NOT to the caning.^{Note 1} The six stroke caning seems to be mandatory for this offence under Malaysian Syariah law.^{Note 2}

• Note 1:  In his judgement on Monday, Syariah judge Datuk Abdul Rahman Yunus said that if Kartika Sari Dewi Shukarnor, 32, from Sungai Siput, Perak failed to pay the fine, she would be imprisoned for three years.
  
  
• Note 2:  The sentence for consuming alcohol was made stiffer when the Islamic Religious Administration and Pahang Malay Tradition Enactment 1982 was amended in 1987. Under Section 136 of the enactment, those who were found guilty could be fined up to RM5,000 or jailed a maximum of three years or both, and receive six strokes of Syariah rotan.

You also say:

I hope the Malaysian model, Kartika Sari Dewi Shukarnor (aka Stella Artois) is indeed caned to encourage the believers to abide by their own takes

I am sad to see you say this. Even though I suspect that Ms Shukarnor is quite happy to undergo the caning because of its undoubted publicity value in her modelling activities (see my post at 02:02 on 25 July in the other thread on this subject as linked above) it cannot be right or just to cane an adult woman for simply drinking alcohol whatever religious zealots may say, or indeed to impose a large fine or a prison sentence for such an offence.

I'm sorry you're sad. Different strokes for different folks both in the kind of caning and the law itself. If she sincerely felt the religious custom was unfair I would imagine she was free prior to predicament to jump over the religious wall and work in a Malaysian brewery and be a model like Stella Artois. Her decision not to make her own flogging the precipitating incident for her to abandon her family long held belief is why I speak of her courage to submit. I think that is why she is being praised and why her father agrees with her decision not to appeal.

I laud those who have the courage not to submit to oppressive regimes as our Founding Fathers did after they had the wisdom to flee from their native countries. I'm against all forms of public CP regardless of gender as are southern handbooks with the notable OTT exception in Memphis Charter School. And as far as adults are concerned I believe in the principle of in loco parentis and as far as religion goes I think the USA has it right Church/State wise. The state has every right to prohibit CP in private schools and some exercise that right and maybe more sure. I hope this clarification will make you less disappointed in me.

Oh dear, if there's one thing I dislike more than getting into scraps over religion, its over religion and the state.....but I really can't let this go by , without a short ( well for prof n) post !!!!

I hope we all agree on this site about the crucial role the Enlightenment played in the development of our state institutions, moreover how it laid the basis for the separation of church and state and thus moved towards the creation of a more free humane society. .but it is an unpalatable fact that ,whether we like it or not, in a pluralist society the relations of power and domination are exhibited both in the state proper ; but also outside, around, beside and under it....in other words the social , religious and political processes of power flow around and within the state on a minute and everyday level.

Unless these power relations reflect the organisation of the state per se, they impute differentiated loci of power in the totality of the social itself.

Yes I'm sorry its my old friend Foucault again,and his discourse on discipline and social regulation. But this analysis has a profound effect on what can be seen as progressive and regressive models of state power and legal intervention. .

Just as , for example physicists needed a certain freedom from religious intervention to develop effective theories about our physical world, and chemists had to be free to develop the logical elegance of the periodic table , free from the imposition of alchemist philosophy, so effective law requires freedom form arbitrary edicts concerning the social framework which must , by its nature include freedom form religious dogma. If the law is to protect religion , it cannot, at the same time be entrapped by religion

If a society has any fundamental laws the first one must be equivalence under the law with a universal penal code over the citizens of each state , ( yes that allows social differentiation in a federal arrangement , providing the federal arrangements are subordinate in general principal to the founding principals of the state.

Naturally you can have States where those founding principals are contaminated with social mores and religious principle to the extent that equality is undermined, but we should then be very careful what perceive as law from social custom at a level of international jurisprudence. We should also look at equality of male and female , racial and other distinct groupings within a given society. This is not an easy process, but ultimately defends us from accepting lazily and at face value all legal judgements or interventions as legitimate.

Now to turn to non state non universalistic courts. I suppose that in theory you could adopt a voluntaristic code, in which all members of a given community, religious, social or political, can be self policing in respect of those activities they find unacceptable....but we saw the result in graphic horror with Jim Jones, Waco ( Branch Davidian) and others. For adults you may assume a certain level of voluntary permission, but this can , in extremis lead to accusations of brain washing, 'cultism' etc. For children and the vulnerable one must be more careful. Even loco parentis is probably not sufficient and exhaustive following both the child abuse and murderous intent of some of these 'nut jobs'..

The Muslim religion , as a major world belief system, is , of course , far more complex and sophisticated, but equally difficult to compartmentalise because of the strong political exhortations contained within its scripture, and the elemental debate about these matters within the faith's branches . It is beyond the scope of the post to explore the myriad of versions from Sunni and Shi'ite to the overt political manifestos , such as professed the Muslim Brotherhood, Nevertheless it is , I would submit , difficult for a Western web site to support or decry the decision of one women embroiled in a court system which has no basis in our professed philosophies.......based on a few translated snatches and some fairly political footage of activities well without our own legal principles. Moreover this raises the issue of religious and social pressure in the legal process elsewhere .where elementary human rights issues enter the equation.......

American Way may go where others fear to tread....but I trust he will do so lightly. And with a certain caution where motives are complex and actions must be interpreted skilfully within the given social nexus .

Of course my reluctance to judge systems with a different world view might be just as easily dismissed as culturally bound ethnocentrism...........probably so , but then I, like everyone, am a product of a specific cultural ethnography and social anthropology............

prof n you are always a fountainhead of information and I so look forward to your postings. I will tread lightly and step out an a limb and share my thinking on this brouhaha surrounding the caning. It is mere speculation but I trust not that much of an unreasonable surmise. Gleaned from this ongoing story are these facts, Katrika's father is mentioned by name and he sides with the conservatives or strict constructionists and her husband's name is kept private because he may pay a price for his dissent although I am amused by his willingness to take the law (cane) into his own hands. The judge may be controversial but less so than Judge Garza of Texas for his definition of the laws applicable to truancy which is different because the alternative to the fine are swats and not incarceration as I initially misunderstood. The Malaysian judge became famous in June 2005 when the same behavior merited the same penalty involved two brothers and not a woman. She has shown a courage to submit (crucial Islamic word) by adhereing to her family standards even at 32 and I'm sure modeling modestly. The difference between secular rule (Malaysia 2nd girl) and religious rule (1st girl Saudi Arabia) is best seen through the eyes of their beauty queen contest than their penal codes. I apologize for filling this estimable Forum with pictures that only by a stretch of the imagination can be considered relevant.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article6244354.ece

Miss Malaysia (2007).

http://www.google.com/profiles/deborah.henry.favourite.places

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBp1Zjcj13M

If you rread my earlier post apologies......


I'm always saying I'm not a finisher....it is true , not flase modesty.The idea enthuses, and writing confuses......

So before someone else points it out .........

'The PRINCIPAL clown had better ensure that next time he writes for this forum , he checks that he can tell the difference between himself as the PRINCIPAL and the PRINCIPLES he holds dear, such as not insulting the English language......OK?'

200 times!!!!!

Sorry mea culpa.

Hi prof.n. As regards your post above I think you will find that one of the strong points of this estimable Forum is that you will normally be forgiven without comment for any usage or spelling (and indeed grammatical) errors unless they alter the meaning of your post in a significant or humorous way, when someone may point it out. I personally have never been able to spell for toffee (is that how you spell toffee?) but as far as I recall no one here has ever taken me to task for it.

One of the early stalwarts of the Forum, Sarajane (whom some believe metamorphosed into another stalwart, Lotta Nonsense) set out what seems to be the general opinion on the matter in the first part of this post in June, 2002.

If Katrika escapes the cane she still belongs in this thread. She cried and I'm sure it wasn't over $1400 and she is willing to buck up and accept the consequences of her action so as to be true to her beliefs. She married at 17 and we don't know how old her two daughters are but she wanted to be an example for the young and in my book she is whether she gets flogged or not.

The brouhaha brings shame and infamy enough so IMHO for what's she has gone through the flogging need not be public but she fought the law and the law won. I'm more comfortable with judicial punishment than religious ones.

Aren't you?

http://www.straitstimes.com/Breaking%2BNews/SE%2BAsia/Story/STIStory_407021.html

http://www.straitstimes.com/Breaking%2BNews/Singapore/Story/STIStory_408593.html?vgnmr=1

At 13:01 on 29 July 2009 in the Teachers Who Paddle thread American Way wrote of a series of pictures I had posted:

Would it be too difficult to place the apprehension photo with the latest Katrika photo taken from from yesterday's link and posting them on the courage to submit thread?

Another_Lurker is always happy to assist Honourary Life Members of this estimable Forum and is only too pleased to oblige!

Nancy Guillen, Miss Booneville 2008 While a student at Booneville High School Nancy opted for a 3 swat paddling in lieu of a half day Saturday detention for tardiness. Administered by Principal Steve Halter, the paddling featured in the 2008 US TV series 'The Principal's Office'. Nancy's very feminine demeanor and cheerful and courageous acceptance of her punishment greatly impressed the proprietor of 'The Disciplined Feminist' website who wrote an essay about Nancy entitled 'The Courage to Submit: An Unlikely Role Model' which gave this thread, originated by American Way, its name. Kartika Sari Dewi Shukarno Ms Shukarno, 32, married with 2 children, a Singaporean hospital worker and part time model, was caught by Islamic religious police drinking beer in a Malaysian hotel nightclub bar. Sentenced by an Islamic Syariah court to a fine of 5000 ringgit (US $1400) with 3 years prison in default and additionally to a 6 stroke caning she wept in court but later paid the fine and decided not to appeal the caning, saying: I will accept this earthly punishment; let Allah decide my punishment in the hereafter. The court has yet to tell me when the sentence will be carried out, so I would like to ask them to hasten it. I truly respect the court's decision. I admit that it's my offence and not that of others, it's not the offence of my parents, not the offence of my other family members. She has a few days left in which to change her mind about an appeal, but if she does not do so she may become the first woman in Malaysia to undergo a caning under Syariah law. Her fortitude and determination to pay the full price demanded by her religion for her very minor transgression caused American Way to say of her in one of his posts above: She may soon belong in this thread I dedicated to those noble souls who have the courage to submit and join Nancy Guillen in that exclusive pantheon. Shamefully, no man has measured up as of yet. His last sentence refers to the fact that so far all the men sentenced to Syariah caning, plus the only other woman so sentenced, have very sensibly registered appeals, thus postponing the punishment for some years if not indefinitely!

In my shoes I would do the same as you but I'm no profile in courage. Looks like a deer caught in headlights. Would she look that way of the flogging is going to be mild?

The first link shows a man standing receiving forty strokes. He fainted after seven. Both male and female victims look like they're getting it on the back. Why would one kneel and the other stand? Does comfort make that much of a difference considering what they are going through? Katrika's drinking offense could have carried a penalty of forty strokes. The Malaysian media played the model angle and it made for a more sensational headline. It's easy to forget that she is a hospital worker with two children and married for fifteen years and she is only 32.

There are also may be a little demonizing going on here because outside of her father saying she was a hospital worker we might have been led to believe that she was still modeling (hardly a noble calling in their eyes). Traditionally the penalty calls for it to be public. I hope they don't cheer. They should give the woman some privacy. I wouldn't be surprised of someone you tubes it but maybe not forthey're stingy with the news and her flogging may have some political stakes. I don't rule out a power play.

The woman's rotan shown is lighter than the male shown being flogged in the New York Times. How is that different from a school cane? Colin Farrel has an extract of that article but I thought it was worth reading in full considering the politics that surrounds this issue in 2009. It's peculiar that they may have to incarcerate her for a day to have a trained prison employee on hand to flog her. I guess it's all in a day's work. Will he wear that ridiculous ninja costume so popular here on Halloween? Saddam Hussein must be sipping his Johnny Walker Black with all those virgins. My luck when it's my time they will all be Nuns.

The waiting must be torture for her. She will be in the news until it's done and over. Maybe her father is moving strings but only tome will tell. The husband said it's his wife and he wants to handle it. He'll flog her with a licorice tawse. We always say a wet needle here.


http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2006/08/01/world/01indo_CA2.ready.htm

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/apr/02/taliban-pakistan-justice-women-flogging IMHO the two minute video shouldnt be put on the nightly news but I dont think the subscription manager should find this OTT but she is of school age and it makes you wonder what goes on in the classroom. Sure it is a shocking glimpse and maybe not fitting for the nightly new but forewarned is forearmed. The text is below for those who dont want to see the video. What the men did is bad but it gives is a picture of vigilante justice that is tolerated by the Taliban and what our noble men and women in harms way are up against. I hope I havent crossed a boundary or pushed the envelope too far. You can always omit the URL but I think the text is worth viewing. This is where the Human Rights Commission rightly belong and not in the USA classrooms. Maybe you are already familiar with this where it appeared in Guardian UK. Im glad were over there in that area (Pakistan/Afghanistan) and were getting out of Iraq.

WARNING: This video contains images some people may find disturbi
A video showing a teenage girl being flogged by Taliban fighters has emerged from the Swat Valley in Pakistan, offering a shocking glimpse of militant brutality in the once-peaceful district, and a sign of Taliban influence spreading deeper into the country.
The two-minute video, shot using a mobile phone, shows a burka-clad woman face down on the ground. Two men hold her arms and feet while a third, a black-turbaned fighter with a flowing beard, whips her repeatedly.
"Please stop it," she begs, alternately whimpering or screaming in pain with each blow to the backside. "Either kill me or stop it now."
A crowd of men stands by, watching silently. Off camera a voice issues instructions. "Hold her legs tightly," he says as she squirms and yelps.
After 34 lashes the punishment stops and the wailing woman is led into a stone building, trailed by a Kalashnikov-carrying militant.
Reached by phone, Taliban spokesman Muslim Khan claimed responsibility for the flogging. "She came out of her house with another guy who was not her husband, so we must punish her. There are boundaries you cannot cross," he said. He defended the Taliban's right to thrash women shoppers who were inappropriately dressed, saying it was permitted under Islamic law.
The Guardian received the video through Samar Minallah, a Pashtun documentary maker and anthropologist who lived in Swat for two years in the late 1990s. It has been passed between Swat residents by mobile phones.
Ms Minallah said the punishment had been inflicted within the last 10 days, following the signing of a controversial peace deal under which the provincial government ceded control of the valley's judicial system to the militants.

"This video is being widely circulated because the Taliban want people to see it. They want to give the message that this is taking place after the peace deal because this is something they ideologically believe in," she said.
Local sources including journalists and human rights workers, some of whom declined to be identified, confirmed the video was recent, although estimates of its timing varied between one and three weeks ago. The Taliban spokesman said it predated the peace deal.
Sher Muhammad Khan, an official in Swat with the Human Rights Commission of Pakistan, said: "They have committed so many atrocities since the peace deal. They have taken entire control of the district. There is nobody to control them; they decide disputes according to their whims."
Since the 15 February deal, a hybrid of traditional and Islamic law has been operational in Mingora, the largest city in Swat district. The qazi courts, as they are known, are not operated by the Taliban but by a related political movement. They have a murky legal status because the changes have yet to be signed into law.
Floggings and other physical punishments have not been imposed in Mingora, where some residents have praised the system's efficiency. However, in outlying districts, where government writ has been entirely crushed, a crude form of gun justice prevails.
The woman in the video, named as Chaand and believed to be aged 17, was punished in Matta, a district further up the Swat Valley.
Minallah and other sources said the girl was punished on suspicion of having had an illicit relationship with a married man. She did not receive a trial. "The whole case is based on the suspicions of one neighbour," said Minallah.
The woman's brother is among the men pinning her down, she added. "It's symbolic that he does it with his own hands. It gives him honour in local society, that he has done it for the sake of religion."
The Swat Valley is controlled by Maulana Fazlullah, a charismatic preacher who initially gained popularity through radio broadcasts, then seized control through gun battles, suicide attacks and intimidation of the local population.
Since the peace deal, women have been beaten for shopping unaccompanied in Mingora's main market and dozens of girls' schools remain closed, many of them bombed.
Fazlullah has sworn loyalty to Baitullah Mehsud, the overall Taliban leader from South Waziristan who claimed responsibility for last Monday's eight-hour assault on a police centre in Lahore and has vowed to mount attacks in Washington.
On Wednesday a presumed American drone fired rockets at a compound controlled by his network, killing at least 14 people.
The effective surrender of government authority in Swat has caused great alarm across Pakistan and among western allies.Minallah said she feared Talibanisation would spread across Pakistan. "I have distributed this video because I feel people are in denial. They don't want to believe what is happening."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/apr/02/taliban-pakistan-justice-women-flogging

Flogging a 17 year old and blowing up girls schools just 100 mile from Pakistan's capitol Islamabad. It's a tug a war now and I sure hope our efforts there will turn things around. It's dicey.

Malala Yousafzai

Courage Not To Submit

Hi American Way. I'm not sure why you posted the cut down picture of the woman being caned in Aceh Province, Indonesia rather than the full version. However, the following two pictures show a little better the procedure used there (punishment administered in public, often outside a Mosque after Friday prayers) and the posture (kneeling, siting back on heels) that the female victims are required to adopt to be caned. The pictures, and videos of the process, are available on the excellent Corpun.com site and are linked from my 02:02 post on 25 July 2009 in the Corporal punishment in Malaysia thread in this estimable Forum.

Aceh Province, Indonesia, 2008. A woman is publicly caned under Sharia law. Aceh Province, Indonesia. An earlier Sharia caning in 2007.

It is interesting to note that the dress imposed on the victim, and that adopted by the man carrying out the punishment, are similar in the two instances. The later, whose identity is supposed to remain secret, hence what American Way terms 'that ridiculous ninja costume', appears to have a nylon stocking or similar obscuring his upper face in the top picture. The Sharia policewomen who escort women to be caned seem to have different uniforms in the two pictures, possibly because the religious police are organised on a local level. In each of the pictures what appears to be a civil policewoman or female soldier is speaking into a microphone, possibly giving a commentary on the proceedings.

It is noteworthy, if somewhat unpleasant, that the tourism authorities in Indonesia's Aceh province seem to hope that this practice of Sharia or Islamic law will attract visitors.

We invite international tourists to visit Aceh to observe how an Islamic community lives and how the Islamic code of Sharia is applied

said Cipta Hunai, an Aceh tourism official, in an interview with Adnkronos International (AKI). He said that Sharia law in Aceh was a tourist attraction because it allowed foreigners to see a reality, that perhaps, they did not already know.

Here the tourists can visit many mosques and see how a community lives under laws based on the Koran

he said.

Yes, well, 'nuff said!

It should be noted that according to all available information this public caning is NOT the procedure to which the Malaysian woman Kartika Sari Dewi Shukarno would be subjected if indeed she is caned. The Malaysian Islamic Syariah law requires the caning punishment to be administered privately in a prison, hence the possible requirement, mentioned above by American Way, for her to be incarcerated for a day for her caning to be carried out. For Kartika Sari Dewi Shukarno the posture she would be required to assume, her dress, and the limitation that the caner cannot raise his arm above shoulder level appear likely to be very similar to the method of punishment shown in the Indonesian pictures, but the Malaysian Syariah law limits the punishment for her offence to six strokes and does not require the humiliation of a public caning. I think the possible maximum of 40 strokes, claimed by American Way above, is the general Muslim legal opinion for drinking alcohol but does not apply in Malaysian Syariah law.

American Way says above:

Both male and female victims look like they're getting it on the back. Why would one kneel and the other stand? Does comfort make that much of a difference considering what they are going through?

Some Islamic legal thinking seems to indicate that, subject to a few limitations, the cane strokes can be to any part of the body. However, as the diagram suggests, I think that, presumably for anatomical reasons, in practise the object is that in the case of women being caned the strokes should not fall lower than on the upper buttocks, hence the sitting on heels position. For men the same anatomical considerations do not apply and they therefore stand with the buttocks fully exposed to the cane. I doubt that questions of offender comfort infuence the posture required. In reality, as American Way notes, the restrictions imposed on the caner's arm movement seem to limit accuracy and in the case of the Indonesian canings both sexes seem to receive as many strokes on the lower back as on the buttocks.

We have not heard from American Way for a day or two so he may be on holiday. If he was here he would be quite entitled to say 'told you so' to me. As a gentleman I'm sure he would not do anything of the sort, but since it seems he was right I thought I'd better update his story for him in his absence.

The unfortunate and foolish 32 year old Singapore hospital worker and part time model Kartika Sari Dewi Shukarno, who was sentenced to 6 strokes of the cane under Malaysia's Muslim Syariah law after being caught drinking beer and who foolishly declined to appeal and thus postpone her sentence indefinitely, is to be caned next week. Featured extensively in this thread and in the 'Corporal punishment in Malaysia' thread here she will thus become the first woman to be caned in Malaysia.

The court has set a period of one week from 24 August for the sentence to be carried out at the Kajang Women's Prison, Selangor. She must surrender to the prison on Monday and will then be held until the punishment has been carried out. The court has apparently ordered that the caning be administered by the prison's female governor. In a gesture typical of her somewhat strange conduct over the affair to date Ms Shukarno is reported by some sources to have requested that the caning be carried out publicly, but Syariah law experts apparently said this was not necessary as long as the offender learnt her lesson.

I was convinced that the Malaysian civil law authorities would find some way to bury this rather unfortunate episode. American Way took a rather strong contrary view! I think that had she appealed nothing more would have been heard of it. The young waitress also sentenced to be caned who did appeal has disappeared from the news, whereas Ms Shukarno has been in the press more or less continuously since being charged, and now apparently gets her wish, expressed immediately after sentence, for the punishment to be carried out. Amongst a vast number of other papers it's in the online Daily Telegraph here so it must be true!

You're one classy dame. You're a Stella Artois and not a Pabst Blue Ribbon Beer but not so your drinking mates. To the authorities who treat this as all pain and no shame I ask, why would she have to go in for a physical so much ahead of time? Are they torturing her by making her wait? Let's get on with it. The guv must be practicing her strokes. There has to be a first time. What a farce!!! I'm sure there are other girls in her jail she would prefer to be flogging and much more deserving to boot.

Hi American Way. Good to see you back!

You have associated Kartika Sari Dewi Shukarno with Stella Artois and also mentioned Pabst Blue Ribbon beer. Now that the unfortunate, and in my opinion foolish (unless of course she is a closet spanko seeking the ultimate experience!) young lady is apparently about to be caned a more appropriate alcoholic beverage to associate her with might be Red Stripe Beer. Especially so if your prognostications about the severity of the punishment come to pass, which I hope for her sake they don't!

You ask:

Why would she have to go in for a physical so much ahead of time? Are they torturing her by making her wait?

No, I suspect they are trying to keep the whole thing as low key as possible. With the publicity she has managed to generate since her sentence, culminating in requests to be punished in public or to have the press admitted to see her punished in prison, I think the prison authorities will not want to announce a specific day for the punishment least the prison be besieged by the media!

And in confirmation of my comment regarding the media above, there is a large crop of new articles on Ms Kartika Sari Dewi Shukarno tonight, including several new photographs. Indeed, at first sight I thought she had been included in complex.com's list of the 10 hottest Muslim women, but it turned out they were only mentioning her to show what a tough time Muslim models have!

I've tried very hard to feel sorry for Ms Shukarno, whose actions I feel must be motivated by something other than a desire to be a good Muslim. I suspect that being not only the first woman to be caned in Malaysia, but also the first person, man or woman, to be caned there under the religious Syariah law (everybody else so sentenced appealed) will not harm her modelling career.

However, my heart softened a little on reading that when caught by the religious police it was only the second time she had ever drunk alcohol in her life, and she had only had 3 glasses of beer before being apprehended. Not bad intake though, for someone's second time ever drinking alcohol! Sadly, as a result of the publicity, (largely self generated it has to be said) she has been forced to resign from her Singapore hospital job and now has only the modelling to turn an honest penny.

The good news is that she has confirmation that she will not be a proper prisoner during her stay in prison prior to being caned, more of a guest really. Also, as predicted here by Another_Lurker, she will be fully clothed at the time of the caning and kneeling down sitting back on her heels to be struck on the upper backside with a small thin cane used with moderate force. So no need for the prison governor to be spending several days practising then, American Way! In addition it looks likely that 4 close relatives, including her father and sister (though not apparently her husband, who seems to have washed his hands of the whole thing once she refused to appeal) will be allowed to witness the punishment. Two of the many new articles will be found here and here.

I don't trust the Muslims when it comes to that whipping. It serves their best interests to downplay this. The husband wanted to do the whipping. But can you blame him? She is out clubing late at night. After three beers I hope she wasn't driving my car. I forget woman aren't allow driv but then again he's no prize and maybe I can't blame her for partying. My wife is watching this story and I told her after three beers that I wouldn't trust her. She would fall asleep and I would only hope in my bed. They make it sound like it's a trip to a certain Australian DHM office for propaganda purposes. It's all about the shame and not the pain. Right. Talk about adding insult to injury.

Katrika reminds me of a blind date I had from the not so renowned but not notorious Barbizon School of Modeling. Maybe she had good looking fingers but I'll never know. At 32 she may need enhancements or at least heels to elevate the diminishing charms that come from age. As I referenced in another thread in case you're interested you can Yahoo UK.com and look for Chrystel under video in the safe mode. Regardless of their propaganda to the contrary I would rather be in Crystel's slacks than in Katrika's clothes. Like Crystel my blind date was in the bottom of her class academically from the way she talked but for the record I didn't role play the part of the school's principal. She must have modeled gloves. A shame to cover what may have been her only asset.

I don't think she wanted to promote her career but to suffer for what she thought she desreved for betraying her religious values. She is to be commended as a profile in courage to submit to be an example to her children and to the people of her beliefs. Paddling in the South is based somewhat on biblical values that likewise should not go ridiculed. Professional teachers in the public schools are not doing it because the bible tells them so but are benfitting it from at what times they ca use as a disciplinary tool and don't for a minute there are more than say they would like to have the same in areas where they have been banned. That being said parents are more open to paddling in school because of their biblical values as practiced at home. The greatest danger of all is where church and state come together if you have not been following my postings on how I feel about Eucon and just posted Chamberlain Hunt.

On a unrelated matter during my two weeks away the only thing I read that pertained to this forum was through a newspaper keeping as far away from technolgy. I was a little disappointed that I received so few suggestions about the USA Handbook but amazed that by my mentioneing the four caned girls at Rodney the way that thread took off and my lessons in physics. This estimable Forum never ceases to amaze me.

Jimmy Snazzbox, thank you for the link with the interview. Will the flogging be on Monday? Time will tell. Probably it will take a few days for her to pass the physical and the governor has taken a few practice swings!!!

My apology to Katrika is in order for I just watched the video posted under Malaysia and she is an attractive young woman not at all like my blind date from the modeling school. Upon her arrest her reaction was similar to Nancy being held accountable for her tardies. Katrika and Nancy felt it was unfair and were shocked at the consequence but Nancy acquiesced as apart of her culturally entrenched tradition or as she put it her duty as a citizen and Katrika as a Muslim. Subjecting themselves to what others from other parts of the world would be considered violations of their bodies a la Paula Flowe. No one seems as concern about the lower member of the species of our gender who continues the appeal. What a wimp!!! He gets a thicker cane fully on the bottom and may win his appeal along with the ten year younger female nurse. There is a bit of Nancy's let's get it over aspect in Katrika but their courage should be lauded nonetheless. Both are unlikely role models for punctuality and sobriety. Like Nancy as a beauty queen her position as an attractive (now that I've seen the video) model generates more interests. They make it sound like she is being flogged with a wet noodle.

Funny, if she is interviewed and says it didn't hurt then the deterrence factor goes by the wayside and if she says it did others will holler. How free is ahe in terms of a male oriented world does her father have the final say? Did she just say she wanted it public knowing it wouldn't happen but would show her fealty to her family traditions? Did she say this so to move on with her life? Will there be a second chapter like Sara Palin or will she be glad to fade from the spotlight? The the theme song so far for this thread would be I am Woman from Helen Reddy but I'm sure a man will make it to the pantheon. Any nominations?

Katrika Interviewed

Sometimes I think you do this deliberately American Way, knowing that I won't be able to stop myself from responding!

Your link at the end of your post above, entitled 'Katrika Interviewed' is actually a link to a blog about something called 'The Mississippi Teacher Corps' whatever that may be.

Another_Lurker Hint No. 437:

• When you've entered your post in the message text box, use the 'Preview' button to inspect it AND test any links before you press the 'Respond' button!

And, for clarification and the avoidance of doubt, as we say in this estimable Forum, the name of the unfortunate and foolish young lady who is just possibly about to be caned is Kartika and not Katrika as you are consistently spelling it. If the poor woman really is going to be the first Malaysian of either sex to feel the rattan as a result of the Malaysian Syariah laws, the least we can do is spell her name correctly!

As American Way has noted elsewhere the Religious Police department van transporting Ms Kartika Sari Dewi Shukarno to prison for her long awaited caning turned around half an hour into the four hour journey and took her back to her father's house. All credit to Ms Shukarno, she refused to get out of the van until she was given official notification of what was happening!

The official story is that religious authorities have decided that the caning cannot be performed during the holy month of Ramadan and it is therefore postponed until some time in September. Personally I believe that the Malaysian civil authorities, alarmed at the phenomenal interest in the story and its effect on the reputation of Malaysia, have come to their senses and twisted someone's arm hard enough to hurt to make them find a reason to abort the caning. Ramadan hasn't suddenly happened. It occurs every year at the same time and was originally discussed as being no barrier to the caning taking place. Over 1400 media articles on Kartika round the world today alone have clearly had an effect!

It will now be found that it was illegal for Kartika to be sentenced to a week in prison for the caning to take place because, having paid her fine, the only prison time in her original sentence was nullified. The caning can only take place if she is subject to prison time, so it can't happen. The religious authorities will be quietly told to get their act together and stop sentencing women to caning, the whole story will quietly fade away and everyone will live happily ever after. Except of course poor Kartika - as she said herself, she was so looking forward to that caning!

Contrast this picture with her sister after Kartika lodged police report to pre-empt potential accusations with her picture enroute to her caning. If the purpose was to shame her it certainly didn't work. Check the number of hits on you tube. A public flogging would be off the charts. Despite protestations to the contrary this caning I don't think will be like that of a naughty school boy (even a Dr Dominum one) and I do think it will go on after the fasting where they're saying over and over again it's just a postponement. But I hope for her sake it doesn't go on and on beyond that. To cancel so abruptly when Ramadan was no surprise does sound strange but the whole think has a Kafka look. She indeed has become the number one member of this pantheon. She looks so sad after her reprieve. You're better than that whole lot!!!

Buck Up Kartika

To quote:

• Pahang puts caning on hold
• Sentence seen as too harsh, says KL minister
• An Islamic court on Tuesday suspended indefinitely the caning of a Muslim woman
• senior government officials spoke up against the harsh punishment
• chief judge of the Pahang Syariah Court ordered the punishment of Kartika Sari Dewi Shukarno to be deferred
• Home Minister Hishammuddin Hussein said that the caning could not go ahead until the prisons department had the expertise to carry it out
• Prime Minister Najib Razak earlier on Tuesday said Kartika should appeal and not just resign herself to the punishment.
• she was urged by Mr Najib to file for a judicial review.
• The court's caning order has caused serious damage to Malaysia's international image as a moderate Muslim nation.

Sadly, according to the Straits Times at 07:58 today, Malaysian time, things don't look good for poor Kartika as the caning she'd set her heart on recedes rapidly into the dustbin of political and economic reality, where the dustbin lid will be clanged firmly down on it as soon as religious niceties permit.

Home Minister Datuk Seri Hishammuddin Hussein.

"I have to admit we do not have experience in this case. From the aspect of responsibility, I understand that under the country's laws, we (the Home Ministry) are responsible; but I cannot allow it if we do not have the expertise [and] the skills, and do not follow the ways set, Prisons Department did not have a person to cane the syariah way, as all this while there has been no requirement for that position to be created.
"As long as the Home Ministry is not ready, the sentence will not be carried out. To me, if we do not have the person to do this, how are we to carry out the sentence fairly?
"Islam says that we are to carry it out according to law and be fair. If we can have one [person to do the caning] in a day, I am ready tomorrow [to carry out the sentence]," he said.

http://thenutgraph.com/kartika-sentence-postponed-until-caning-syariah-way

Hmm, I don't know if it's my system American Way, or if that nutgraph site goes off-line at times or what, but I'm darned if I can get either the main site, or your page on the site to open! Other Malaysian links are a tad slower than normal but they are opening.

The Pan-Malaysian Islamic party (PAS), part of the Malaysian opposition alliance, seem to be putting up a fight about keeping Syariah caning of women, but the clever money is betting that they lose.

Syriah Caning Class 101

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n1-5AbAmaxk

http://paullongsramblings.blogspot.com/

My heart goes out to the habitués of this estimable Forum. I myself am so overcome with emotion that I am not even going to complain about the fact that one of American way's links above doesn't work! After all it is the same one that didn't work in his previous post either.

But we must be strong and stand firmly together, back to back or side by side, or whatever other configuration floats our individual boats. Already we have managed to survive the dreadful revelations that:

Part-time model Kartika Sri Dewi Shukarnor, 32, a mother of 2, drank beer and has been sentenced to be caned!

Kartika is not just a part-time model but a hospital worker too!

She's not just a 'hospital worker', but a fully trained nurse!

She actually wants to be caned, and in public!

She can't be caned after all!

And now comes the final devastating blow!

Kartika is in fact 'a divorced mother of 2'!

The Jakarta Globe here says so, so it must be true! That may explain why her (presumably ex) husband said he'd like to carry out the caning himself!

Another_Lurker hopes that there are no more twists to this apparently never ending saga 'cos he's run out of font sizes!

She can't be caned after all! Is that definite? I'm not so sure.

I repeated the link purposely so that you would give it another chance. There is many ways of skinning a cat so the other two links should have proved sifficient. The Malaysian Bar newspaper is closely following events and I was amused that the severity or lack thereof is still an ongoing discussion.

I believe her wanting it to be public is for the letter of their law to be fulfilled so she can duly atone and not for perverse or self promotion or any desire to lighten the lashes through public exposure. Can you blame her for wanting to get away from him? She married him when she was 17 and she started having children ten years after getting a nursing degree. He probably had her followed. You're better than that whole lot.

Hi American Way. One of us will be proved right eventually. It may well be you, in which case I shall do as I did on 20 August when it appeared that Kartika was actually going to be caned and admit that I was wrong.

Meantime, something of a mystery. You say:

she started having children ten years after getting a nursing degree.

Kartika is said to be 32.

Her eldest child Muhammad is said to be 8.

Even allowing for birthdays at different times of the year she cannot have been older than 25 when she gave birth to Muhammad.

If that was 10 years after getting her nursing degree she obtained her nursing degree by the time she was 15 or 16.

Doesn't seem terribly likely to me!

As regards your link to 'Syriah Caning Class 101' I still can't open it. I am not trying to make a point here. If I have a problem unique to me I prefer to know about it so that I can investigate it. I would therefore be grateful to know if anyone else (preferably someone who empties their browser cache at regular intervals) can get into the page.

Hmm, American Way, I wonder if this has anything to do with my problems with your 'The Nutgraph' link, aka 'Syriah Caning Class 101'. The report here says, under the heading 'The Nut Graph in a jam' that as of 05 August 2009 the Nut Graph investors had pulled out and the site was desperately looking for cash from other sources to stay on-line. Methinks they probably failed to find it!

If you can still see the page I suggest you clear your browser cache and then see what happens. Security-wise it's always a good idea to do this after every session anyway.

If you are still having a hard time getting through Nut Graph may I suggest you simply Google: Kartika sentence postponed "until caning can be done the syariah way". Let me correct the nursing school timeline (seven years not ten years). She married him when she was 17 and she started having children seven years later if their boy is 8. She would have plenty of time to receive her nursing degree. OTOH she could be going to school contemporaneously with working full time, modeling part time and mothering two special needs kids. Thats enough to drive anyone to drink.

There is no law saying you cant carry out a sentence during the Ramadan or the lack of caning expertise is a canard for the man from Aceh Province post pictured above could be brought in to instruct the prison governor. New Straits Times is spot on in my book in its explanation for the postponement. Its the only one that makes sense to me. It does not seem like a Gordian knot but a glitch. I say they will sort this out and she will be whipped come late September or early October but perhaps with less fanfare. It is peculiar that she would rush to the police station after the postponement to make sure no one would accuse her of evading the sentence. Maybe she is afraid of getting a long jail sentence? Maybe she doesn't want her people to think she is a coward and that the postponement was her idea?

Kartika dont worry about that on my account youll always be a profile in courage for you have the courage to submit. I'm sorry Kartika I can't take your lashes I already celebrated my 50th. You're kind of cute but we'll have to do something about side facial profile. I like book you're in one your you tube video that I checked out and it was deeply spiritual just like me. It's a good thing it didn't work out with him (you're better than that lot). Make sure you get a restraining order on him you don't want to suffer double jeapardy if he comes at you with a whip or Allah help him if I get my hands on him. OMG she is reading my posts and she's tracking me down. Not my wife but Kartika or it would be double jeopardy for me. Excerpts from the NST: Double Jeapordy

Despite the provisions of the Syariah criminal code allowing punishment for whipping upon a Muslim woman without having to be sentenced to imprisonment, it is a state law.

Federal regulations have a different view on this. According to the Prison Regulations of 2000, a woman is exempted from whipping, as well as a man of 50 years and above. In addition, the Prison Regulations of 2005 also prohibit any whipping punishment to be carried out on an offender who is not sentenced to jail.

The main reason Kartika's case is unconstitutional is that the order issued by the same judge on Aug 18 seems to be double jeopardy under Article 7(2) of the Federal Constitution. How could the same judge issue a warrant on the same offence after he has passed sentence on July 20?

The syariah deputy public prosecutor had not advised the judge that this approach was wrong.


DOUBLE JEOPARDY

Her father is hoping for good news. Shukarno Abdul Mutalib is relieved to see that his daughter Kartika Sari Dewi's behaviour has changed for the better ever since the whipping sentence imposed on her was highlighted by the local and international media.


Dad is hoping for good news

Thank goodness you posted American Way! In my eagerness to get to grips with other things tonight I had forgotten that I owe you an apology which I very much hope you will accept.

You are indeed correct that the Nut Graph site works perfectly. Since you were adamant that it did I did something I would never normally do and accessed an unknown site on my 'business machine' which at the moment happens to be the only one I have running a current operating system. It won't surprise you to know that I got straight in!

This is the first time ever in my, although I say it myself, not inconsiderable experience, that a site has simply failed to even respond to a non-current operating system at all, causing a 'site does not exist' message to be returned. Occasionally a site will tell you you can't come in because you are using an old system, and usually it can be fooled into letting you in, but total non-response, that is a completely new one on me, and I really can't see why, because they don't appear to be using anything out of the ordinary once you do get in.

As a penance for the above mistake I shall refrain from saying 'told you so' after your post above. It isn't quite appropriate anyway - yet!

It's hard to believe that it is the first anniversary of Nancy debut in the Principal's Office show and Tru Tv is still abuzz over this episode as opposed to the others. It's interesting that among the many writers are the Brits. Letters have been written right up to a few months ago. There is even speculation of what college she is attending considering her accomplishments in her senior year that some accredit to her paddling. I wouldn't go that far.

I think the program hit a chord because the majority of the 300,000,000 people here have not had any experience since the late seventies when the decline began. The Southeastern portion of our nation doesn't get the attention that the media centers of LA and NYC do so the only exposure the kids of school age today have are from their grandparents and not their parents. Thirty years is a long time in terms of the oral tradition as historians can attest. There was even one respondent who wrote about a Catholic School with sixty children (mine with just over fifty) in a classroom. In college my two encountered youngsters from almost all 50 states so they heard first hand stories from their peers from both public schools and from Christian schools (albeit in the lower grades for lack of Christian High Schools). By their high school years they have to start thinking about public or affordable colleges. Not surprisingly it was from Texan boys that my son heard it from with 40,000 paddlings in that state. My son played sports and my daughter is a bit of a book worm and introvert so she had no stories plus three times as many boys are paddled than girls with a few exceptions.

PS Reality check? Does this Pam character in the link below sound for real. She is amusing in any event.

Nancy Update

Inquiring minds want to know. The first two stories have appeared about litigation concerning Halter but I guess he made out like a bandit (last link). He is about 55 having graduated from high school in 1972 and perhaps is ready to retire and he is listed as owning a business with one employee and he lists his sales as $42,000. That's a princely sum for Boonevile AK. The three links worked on the preview but you never know!!!

His business profile: http://www.manta.com/company/mtrdrhs


Halter Suit I

Halter Suit II


Halter Laughs All The Way To The Bank


The District reached a settlement agreement with Steve Halter, former high school principal, on
November 11, 2008. The District will pay Mr. Halter a total of $121,392 in equal monthly installments beginning
December 2008 for 19 months. The District paid Mr. Halters attorneys fees of $10,000. The District will
continue to pay its portion of Mr. Halters health insurance as well as the employer match to the Arkansas
Teacher Retirement System on Mr. Halters monthly installments. Mr. Halter was relieved of all duties with the
District and will resign his employment, effective at the end of the 2009-10 school year.

Hi American Way. You say:

PS Reality check? Does this Pam character in the link below sound for real. She is amusing in any event.

She certainly is amusing, but it is difficult to say if she is real. She has her story very clear in her mind, but that doesn't necessarily mean it is true. There is some strange stuff on that page - at least I assume it is strange for the US, but maybe not. A girl paddled in gym shorts, boys paddled stripped to their underwear. Or perhaps the respective Principals were thinking of coming over to the UK and seeking employment at the Rodney School!

Your Steve Halter research is interesting. I was never absolutely clear why he was pushed out, but if I recall correctly it was nothing to do with the TV series and its repercussions. The company profile doesn't specify a business activity and the implication is that the employee is in fact Mr Halter. He is referred to as 'Principal' in the contacts section. Is this some sort of an income tax device? But surely a man at his level would be earning more than $42k?

A Principal would be making considerably more for a service (teachers' characterization) and it does say sales there. It should say sales and not teaching because he sold Nancy down the river. Her parents may have been less sophisticated than Halter with his degrees. A sixteen year old may not be aware what the scale of tens of millions of people meant but he did. Did she know how rare paddlings were for girls in the USA? Did she even know how cute she was when she was being cute at her age? She knows that swaying her buttocks attracts the boys but does she really know the facts of life. She could have been just another virgin being exploited pure and simple. Halter knew and shame on him and shame on Tru TV. He gave me the creeps by being so avuncular while exculpating himself with his handbook and putting the onus on her for making a choice that made big bucks for others. I wonder if the producers, directors, and television crew would put their daughter through that. We certainly wouldn't put ours. His avuncular way with her and his constantly exculpating himself by quoting the handbook and by saying it's her decision didn't endear me to him. It was all a game and while both were playing a part the adult was not acting like one and a kid was acting like a kid. He gives me the creeps and I'm glad he's out of the business. The paddling fetishists (not the overwhelming majority of teachers as I have often asserted) had a field day. The punishment took a private moment of correction and turned it into a show. Nancy I hope you start college this week because you're better than that whole lot.

Hi American Way. I have to confess that Mr Halter was not a man I would want to be in charge of my daughters, if I had any, which I don't. However, perhaps because I am not attuned to the US school situation I assumed that both sides were acting their socks off for their 15 minutes of fame. The scene with the Halter - Nancy interview in his office when he pontificated about women keeping him waiting and she said 'Oo to think I'm actually handling your paddle' or words to that effect was hilarious - or so I thought. Clearly you didn't see it like that, and as you are far better equipped to appreciate the US cultural nuances I have to respect your opinion.

Is it not the case though that if you have a handbook and a disciplinary matrix you have to abide by them come what may, and that hence they are possibly not such a good idea after all. I'd have much preferred to hear Mr Halter say to Nancy:

Look young lady you're slipping below the standards of punctuality that you can attain and that I expect. You've let me down badly and I'm not happy about that. I could give you Saturday detention, I could paddle you, but in this case I'm just going to tell you to get your act together or next time the world will fall on your head. Do we understand one another?

To which Nancy, suitably chastened, would reply:

Yes sir, sorry sir, it won't happen again.

and it wouldn't!

But of course he couldn't do that because the disciplinary matrix said she had to serve a full day's Saturday detention or take three swats and serve a half day Saturday detention and neither of them had any other choices. They were just puppets enacting a drama which had been written for them by whoever drew up the disciplinary matrix.

Matrices get them ready for the long and much less gentle arm of the law. The fact she wasn't aware of the penalty for the next tardy she may not have known what troble she could be in unless she was feigning inocenence. The handling of the paddle had too much of the sugar and spice factor for me. I would simply have said you'll know soon enough what it will feel like if you choose that option and paddles are not to be toyed with nor am I to be trifled with. I so look forward to my hypothetical job. I would prefer not to have an option like elementary school but their lack of consent (given their maturity that they're not showing) could turn a routine paddling into a wrestling match. Generally kids aren't as compliant as Chamberlain Hunt military school in MS which BTW has an interesting connection with Lee Harvey Oswald. They would have to call in the National Guard to keep me from escaping that school. They're even worse than dealing with Eucon!!!

This POV linked below reminds me of the post in the Corporal Punishment in Malaysia (7/25 at 2:02) and this thread on the same date 3:28 but doesn't confirm their thought process. I agree with the link below the she should be flogged. You play you pay. That being said let's walk me through this. The so-called stunt has cost her a good paying job. It's not always true that all publicity is good publicity. Are these delays just bonuses to revive her career? A gentle whippings sounds like being a little bit pregnant. Do you meant to tell me Crystel (Bottom of the Class Video) walk away less sore than when Kartrika gets hers? There are just too many telling denials for my liking.

"Mild Whipping Big Fuss"

Hi American Way. In your post above on Nancy Guillen's paddling you say:

Matrices get them ready for the long and much less gentle arm of the law.

Now I don't know the situation in the USA, but certainly here in the UK the law, from police officer through magistrate, Crown Prosecution service, Judge and jury, has a great deal of discretion and to an extent can tailor the punishment to suit the offender. Surely an American traffic policeman can decide to give you a good talking to instead of a ticket if he catches you just a little bit over the speed limit? Surely an American Judge can say in a case that this prisoner shows genuine contrition, he's guilty and he admits it but he really has been very unlucky, we'll give him the bottom end of the range of prison terms for the crime?

Now as far as I can see disciplinary matrices don't allow any flexibility, common sense, mercy, call it what you will. Third tardy, half day Saturday detention, or three swats sorry, pops (I know you prefer that term) or whatever the matrix says. That's it, finito, no other outcome is possible, next defendant please!

Not a sensible thing in my opinion. At the simplest level if a student is going to be 5 minutes late and that tardy is going to earn them the paddle they might just as well be half an hour late. It's a tardy just the same and they'll be paddled just the same if that's what the disciplinary matrix says, so why rush.

On a more emotional level, I really cannot see the point of in effect taking human beings and their ability to question, judge and decide on an individual basis out of the loop. However that's effectively what a disciplinary matrix does. What was the point of Halter inerviewing Nancy to see whether she wanted a full day detention or a half day detention and swats if he had no scope to vary the sentence. It was a waste of his time and hers. They might just as well have had a machine somewhere:

If you want swats and a half day detention press button A then bend over with your hands on the bar and your feet on the white sensors.

If you want a full day detention press button B.

Take the red or blue ticket from slot C. Swipe it through the sensor on the detention room door on Saturday. Retain the ticket and swipe it through the internal sensor to open the detention room door and allow one person to exit when your 3 or 6 hours are up.

This transaction is computer logged and failure to comply correctly will invalidate your school pass for 7 days external suspension.

No human intervention - just like a disciplinary matrix!

And it's hi American Way again! With regard to Kartika Sari Dewi Shukarno, in your post above you compare the views in a couple of my posts to those in the Malaysian blog you link. Not quite fair I don't think. The blogger and I both think Kartika won't be caned but that in the unlikely event she is it won't be a severe punishment. We both think Malaysian Syariah law has screwed up, although I can say so and he can't, not quite as bluntly anyway! However there is one big difference. The blogger thinks Kartika should be caned, I don't.

The Malaysian Syariah law is clearly a complete shambles and no two Muslim religious authorities seem to be able to agree with each other on whether drinking alcohol is really prohibited, and if it is prohibited whether any penalty is appropriate, and if a penalty is appropriate what it should be. The caning sentence, with the additional ludicrously high fine, with 3 years in prison if the fine wasn't paid are clearly the work of a Syariah Judge with a law book or two loose as regards this particular issue. He is impartial though. He's given exactly the same sentence to two women and at least two men.

Taking all that into account I'm entitled to say she shouldn't be caned. The blogger is equally entitled to say that she should be. But we are not, as you suggest, saying the same thing!

You say:

The so-called stunt has cost her a good paying job.

This may not be true, although it is what she seems to be suggesting. She worked in a Singapore hospital. Her husband is a Singaporean, she is a Malaysian national. If they are indeed divorced she may not be able to live in Singapore anymore, in which case she couldn't do the hospital job. If the court cases were the cause of the divorce then fine, you are correct. But it isn't clear if that was the case.

You also say:

It's not always true that all publicity is good publicity.

But most of the time it is, especially if you are model - look at Naomi Campbell!

You also say:

A gentle whippings sounds like being a little bit pregnant.

The sentence isn't a whipping it's a caning, although I would agree that if they used a rattan cane such a cane does have certain characteristics in common with a whip. Either punishment can be varied from the very mild to the very severe depending on the implement, how it is used and how many strokes are given. Do you think a nine year old boy being caned in primary school got the same punishment as one of Doctor Dominum's sixth formers receiving 6 of the best? Some authorities do say though that it should indeed be gentle and that only a twisted handkerchief should be used as this is how Mohammed punished his wife on one occasion.

Further you say:

Do you meant to tell me Crystel (Bottom of the Class Video) walk away less sore than when Kartrika gets hers?

I've no idea, the Crystel video wasn't real, it was a posed fetish video. The best guide we have to what will happen to Kartika if she is caned, which I don't think she will be, is the excellent Corpun.com site, and specifically the first video clip on this page. Incidently I don't think that Colin Farrell's written commentary on this video is correct - unless he's watching a different video to me.

Scroll down to the video and watch it again. Note the thickness of the rattan when the caner holds it up to the crowd - about as thick as a little finger. Note the posture of the woman being caned, kneeling sitting back on her heels so that the lower buttocks are protected, and how she is dressed. Note how the caner uses the cane. He's a bit naughty on the last stroke, but for the other strokes a copy of the Koran held in the armpit of his caning arm would indeed not fall, which is supposed to be the requirement. He is not using his full strength or anything like it. Note where the strokes land. Most of them land on the upper buttocks as they are supposed to. Note how distressed the woman is. Not very, although she is being caned in front of a large and not very sympathetic crowd.

Now substitute Kartika for the woman being caned in the video, a woman prison governor for the male caner, a private room in a prison for the stage in front of a mosque and maybe a couple of female prison officials, perhaps a female doctor plus possibly three or four of Kartika's close relatives for the baying crowd and imagine six strokes of the cane. Bingo! You've got it! If it happens - which it won't!

It causing her the loss of a job because she was as a divorcée is possible but I think the religious police might look the other way if she is living under a man's thumb (seemingly her father's). Show me an ad where she's modeling I'll say I'm wrong.

Concerning the severity there was a precautionary clause in one of the student handbooks that one poster here said was not helpful due to its vagueness but I give it more credence than what they're claiming. Pardon me but the need for me to qualify those who say it won't happen to those who say its unlikely happened escaped me. If she isn't caned I'll be the first to admit I'm wrong. They beat the living you know what out of her and the family would fear to say word about it. A you tube whipping unlike her interviews that belie any shame behind the sentence would reveal truths that would not be in the interest of the religious police. What deterrence value would a caning less painful than Crystels have on others and a too severe one would cause other problems? There is an escape clause developing behind the scenes where she has to take her religion class over but it's still a long shot. Who better teach it after his retirement than Dr Dominum? Where else but a movie (mainstream or fetish site available in the safe mode) can an example be drawn upon? They got themselves into this pickle and the loss of face would cost them too much.

When I'm wrong I apologize as I was about Alvin TX for LMAO. H. L. Mencken was known to respond to a woman's critical letter with these words: you may be right. I try not to make rash judgments but reasonable surmises that fall short of beyond a reasonable doubt. I hope that's omission is understood so I won't spend time either qualifying before or clarifying after. I am sure that grows wearisome for both sides of the pond also because of my frequent postings I hope you don't grow weary of my awful grammar and spelling that leads so often my not being able to make myself clear. Let's just say that's my way and not the American Way.

Disciplinary matrices neither preclude common sense nor human intervention. Teachers and administrators are more than machines. There are neither perverts nor devoid of compassion or understanding but are undeservedly treated like that by those too often act in that manner.

A set limit of time turns a tardy into a skipped class and a series of skipped classes become a truancy and progressively punished accordingly. Common sense also applies to the spectrum of explanation to excuse when being assessed by the teacher for an infraction. Unexcused tardy warrants punishment; explanations can cause promises of paddling and excuse exoneration.

If I were a girl I would use the gender card as a trump. For instance I would say I had to tarry in the lavatory because of diarrhea and may I please change my seat so I can be closer to the door. If questioned further I would say it may not sicken you for to me to have to explain but it sickens my mother to hear about that from me. As a teacher I would share or commonality in detail and then ask her to see the nurse. Ill tell her Im sorry if youre sick but if the nurse says youre not you will be the one thats sorry. Wouldnt I make a great principal? Im a better at getting away with things when I feigning troubles when it comes to my lads.

A student can argue his or her case with the teacher but is not given the full protection of due process unless it involves expulsion which is a whole different matter where the state has an obligation to educate. The options are given because schools understandably want no part of paddling an unwilling child. An aborted caning happens at times if the student finds it too painful to bear and then has to endure the alternate consequence. That almost happen in the Megan Lowry fictional essay but she bucked up and found the courage to submit and Megan was almost had all her pops behind her.

I was just thinking for religious reasons a law against drinking alcohol making it immoral in my mind and, punishable in a kind of theocracy. A gentle whipping and a fine, however reprehensible it may seem, falls within their definition of being fair as does suspensions and paddling do here for misbehavior and the most of the rest of the world regrettably feel is unfair. MYOB.

The extent of that theocracy is the drama that's unfolding now and perhaps at the expense of poor Kartika who must endure the hardship of the delay. The secular and religious are by definition in contrast but now are in conflict. He who wins the tug of war gets to do what they want with the rope (cane).

Maybe Kartika did not appeal not only because she wanted to get it behind her but she is a binge drinker who feel she deserves every stroke for saying it was her first drink? Like Nancy said it was her duty as a good citizen to accept her disciplinary sanction for fairness sake but who among us doesn't find relief from guilt from misdeeds that have gone unpunished. It seems like the powers want her to appeal to help sort out this conflict but she is frustrating the whole process by seeking to be caned and showing no shame to boot. A trip to reform school may be the only way she can escape caning and reduce the loss of face all the way around. If that's the case I may be wrong about her getting the cane.

I think I'll stop posting on this matter because it has little to do with school corporal punishment with the exception of Christian schools here. If you have some news over there you might share it here.

I'll stop posting on this matter. Yea sure. I just couldn't resist. This was too good for me to pass up. Can you imagine what is going through that poor girl's mind as they practice caning her with a chair in absentia? It reminded me of Steve Halter's demonstration? Is this more bizarre than any soap opera?

If it won't hurt why do it? If it does hurt why should she be the first? Was her offense the one they most wanted to deter? What's with those four cowards (shame to the male gender) appealing to avoid a not to severe caning? Who ever called women the weaker gender?

The next think we will have is a countdown to September 15th. I'm almost ready to gloat and say I told you so. The second I told you so is when she doesn't get any jobs modeling even gloves. The only gloves she will be wearing will be when she goes back working as a nurse.

Maybe Paula Flowe can be flown in to save the day? Where' Paula when we need her?

Caning Practice for Kartika

Hi American Way. You ask with regard to the Kartika saga:

Is this more bizarre than any soap opera?

Yes, it certainly is!

And you also ask:

why should she be the first?

Because, as you yourself note, the 4 men sentenced for the same offence (plus the young waitress who you don't mention) all had the sense to appeal. If something is totally illogical and has no specific foundation in the doctrines of the religion in whose name it is being promulgated then appealing against it is not cowardice, it is the only way for a sane person to proceed.

You say:

I'm almost ready to gloat and say I told you so.

Never count your Kartikas before they're caned!

And finally you ask:

Where's Paula when we need her?

I'm afraid she's far too busy battling the hordes of 6 foot 4 inch 300 pound High School Principals committing mayhem with their paddles on the buttocks of their young female charges to worry about Kartika!

I'm sure the waitress (I didn't forget her) will be happy if she doesn't get caned but I'm sure she is grateful she will be the second without the attendant publicity. When they were nabbed almost a year ago the waitress acted as if it were her bad karma but for Kartika was it was as if she knew she deserved to be punished to make restitution for failing Allah and shaming her family.

I get the impression there are a lot of people who want Katrika to appeal and win behind the scenes so it's not a done deal but almost so I might not be able to gloat yet. But it's more likely because of this event that just unfolded.

But would you delay if it's no more painful than a spanking and continue to be the center of attention? I'm trying to practice with my bible underneath to restrict my movement. No blood and no tears!!!

If the powers to be were smart (which would be surprising at this point) they would sneak her away and keep the media from knowing when they will give her thise six strokes (2 for each Pabst Blue Ribbon Beer or as someone from this estimable Forum said Red Stripe beer). I don't think it was her first drink at 32 as a divorcee, a nurse and model.

Tut tut American Way. You really can't ascribe almost saintly virtues to her - courage to submit etc., and then accuse her of lying about how many drinks she'd had. It's simply not on!

I ascribed saintly qualities not angelic ones? So don't be so quick to agree with me that she is lying. It's OK for me because she's become like family now that I know how to spell her name. Katrika is courageous but not suicidal. SO WHAT maybe she is minimizing and rationalizing but who are we to judge?

Aren't we always hoping that there is someone setting the bar low and hopefully at the bar a drink ahead of us and thirstier even if we have buy the old bloke a drink. Seriously, it could have been her first drink in public but I doubt it was her first drink. Tell me there are no closet drinkers among the religious police? Katrika you're better than that whole lot.

I am obssessing aren't I? Shame on me. This is the 60th post and with a quick count 35 of them have been mine. TMTOMH.

Hi American Way. I think you are winding me up yet again! You say:

It's OK for me because she's become like family now that I know how to spell her name. Katrika is courageous but not suicidal.

Well, you did know how to spell it, but you've forgotten again! Her name is Kartika!

Hi American Way. I didn't want you to miss this article. The author seems to go even further than you! He thinks Kartika is the saviour of Malaysia - or something pretty close!

Last Call.




Kartika's Monkey Bar

She is no plaster saint as the above article implied but a nurse out clubing in the premiere bar seeking the comfort and companionship and not I hope monkey business to further supplement her income. I would have bought her a Stella Artois and not a Pabst Blue Ribbon Beer.

They're bringing back corporal punishment in Malaysia for girls due to a rise of indiscipline with the red palms but such delicacies don't matter the American Way.

I'm now a fountain of knowledge that I know how to do fonts

Hi American Way. I am pleased to see that your HTML education continues apace, with italics, bold and underline now mastered. You'll be setting up your own website to publicise that Student Handbook before very long! All domain name variants of everyman-high and everyman-junior-high appear to be available for purchase, and the world recession has caused prices to crash, so the way to fame and fortune on the WWW is open for you!

However, enough of these off-topic ramblings! Contributions to this estimable Forum seem to have dried up a bit today, so I have no hesitation in posting this link which indicates that our favourite about to be caned (allegedly) young lady may in fact be Malaysian Nobility no less! So the question hanging over this momentous event must be rephrased. Not just will they actually cane a woman, but will they actually cane a noblewoman?

To be or not to be? To be caned or not to be caned? To be a model or not to be a model? To be a nurse or not to be a nurse. To be a wife or not to be a wife? To be divorcee or not to be divorcee? To be a Muslim or not to be a Muslim? To be a Citizen or not to be a Citizen? Inquiring minds want to know?

She listed her blood lines not to brag but to debunk the blogosphere. Their words not mine. I wonder if she reads this estimable Forum? The journalists from Malaysia stole a page from my playbook with that bit about being a profile in courage. Kartika (note the date) I said it first. But that's OK she is more likely to read Malaysia Today than Network 54.

I have a solution. If she wants to be caned publicly why not at a mosque like the penitents in the church? There was a lot of perverted monks (pedophiles of their day) flagellating young nuns for their sins. Better them being beaten than me being beaten solely for the salvation of my soul and for the glory of God in Our Lady of Corporal Punishment School in the sixties.

I'll need help with that handbook. I like the way Winona MO does their discipline chart which graphically is beyond my capacities. For the life of me I couldn't shorten the her image link maybe some one from computer corner can help me? I keep getting a red linked image and that is like a red flag to a bull to someone who shared how much that annoyed him. I hope my link isn't so long that it stretches the view. She looks too fetching for me not to share it. At 32 I wouldn't kick her out of my bed for eating crackers. The one who shared to top ten models made me dream of spending heaven with the nubile virgins who saved themselves for me. My luck the only virgins that will come my way are the Nuns.


Who Is Kartika?

http://www.wptv.com/Photo.aspx?content_id=828fb0b0-b4d6-41e9-bf85-8ee6c14ba289

Hi American Way. You say:

For the life of me I couldn't shorten the her image link maybe some one from computer corner can help me? I keep getting a red linked image

I'm not sure what the problem was. The link you have provided is, technically, not to the image but to a page containing a small version of the image, which in turn links to a larger version.

The big image can be directly linked with a shortened form link like this:

A link to a nice picture of Kartika

Or posted like this:

Kartika Sari Dewi Shukarno

And you also say:

I like the way Winona MO does their discipline chart which graphically is beyond my capacities.

If they can do it you can probably do it. Post a link to the Winona discipline chart so that I can have a look at it and I'll see if I can help.

The emotional and psychological damage may have accomplished the purpose of these religious thugs who thought it would be more painful or at least as painful as Aceh Province. I'm not backing off totally from my prediction but by next week they will have run out of excuses. I've noticed how the world court of opinion has quieted down a bit since they have made the caning sound less draconian. I don't buy into that for one moment. I don't trust the likes of them. If the goal was to reform her they might call the whole thing off. OTOH if their goal is to show their muscles then the show must go on. I was virtually certain she would be caned but since this article I'm not as much. How does a mild whipping make the female prison guard? She is an Islamic sister who must share some outrage against her sin. Do you think she'll gently whip her to atone for her sin. She leave crying because of the dubious distinction of suffering such ignominious fate and bringing shame to her noble family. She won't be leaving laughing for sure but she should hold her head up high because she's better than that whole lot even if she has the blood of commoners flowing through her veins.

SHE MAY NOT BE CANED AFTER ALL

The Civic Advocator, a Signapore paper, back on in July 21 has given me second thoughts about the severity of the caning. If she doesn't get caned or only spanked she is no less a profile in courage. She faced her tormentors and did not blink. She didn't shrink from the consequences and was even willing to suffer them publically for the sake of the Islamic commonweal. As Nancy accepted her paddling as all part of a being a good citizen.

Who knows in college Nancy may become an opponent of CP or at least for tardies perfectly acceptable in a free society. Katrika may do as will but they respect the law and accept the consequences for the now. I've searched the internet to see if she made any comments immediately after her arrest. I wouldn't be surprised if she like Nancy in a petulant manner more typical of the fairer gender may have protested the unfairness of the law. Why me I'm not that bad a person but this world would be a better place if there were more courageous people willing to take their medicine and returner sooner than later as prodigals.

I initially thought this had nothing to do with School Corporal Punishment but the fact that married high school students are not exempt and college students may being paddled for the Christian faith at Eucon college (previously mentioned) it may not that off topic.

Who am I ro question the wisdom of the natives? The argument proposed to dismiss the whipping altogether in this article found in the Civic Advocator an anonymous commentator wrote:

She knew the risk she was taking when she decided to have that beer. I think the $1400 fine is really more severe than the caning. These types of canings are meant to be more humiliating and embarrassing than painful. It will be a mild caning that is more of a symbolic gesture than a real punishment. She will be lashed across her fully clothed buttocks with a shorter and lighter cane. It might sting a little and leave some welts that should heal rather quickly. The soreness that she will experience afterwards won't last an hour. She's lucky she is not going to have to experience a "real caning" and even luckier to be getting off with a "spanking" instead of a lengthy prison sentence.

I'll admit, all of that is pretty harsh for drinking a beer. But she knows what is required of the Muslim faith and choose to disobey. Now she must pay the price with her dignity and some mild discomfort to her fanny. But she'll become a world wide celebrity and probably make a lot of money from telling her story.

Things are really hotting up on the Kartika Sari Dewi Shukarno front! According to this report Kartika is now threatening to take legal action against anyone, government official, civil servant, old uncle Tom Cobley and all, who approaches her or her family. She has:

received advice from several civil and syariah lawyers on the carrying out of the sentence and was satisfied with the advice given.

and also

appointed several civil and syariah lawyers from the legal firm of Adham and Associates in Ipoh to look after the interests of herself and her family.

Wow! Unless Malaysian lawyers are a lot cheaper than UK lawyers that sounds like big big money! I wonder if she's received a down-payment from some media agency for the inside story on the caning - or non-caning as the case may be.

It is also stated in this press report that the 22 year old waitress Noorazah Baharuddin sentenced to be caned by the same judge, and who very sensibly appealed, was arrested for serving beer to Kartika. I don't think that was what was said at the time of the court case, but it seems that in the Kartika story it is now a case of anything goes if it makes a good story!

And finally, according to this report the Kuantan Syariah High Court judge Datuk Abdul Rahman who sentenced Kartika, has now passed down his sixth caning sentence for alcohol related offences, on an Indonesian odd-job worker, who also got a year in prison, the first person to be imprisoned for this type offence under Malaysian Syariah law. The Syariah laws apparently apply to all Muslims, not just Malaysians.

It is interesting to note that the Judge's two original caning sentences, passed on two brothers on June 14, 2005 have still not been carried out as their appeals are still pending 4 years and 3 months later!

Thanks for the update. Let's put aside the emotive and OTT politics and religion of the matter and focus on the caning itself. I know Dr Dominum has said he has not been following the story at all but by the postings some of the members of this esteem Forum are.

What's easier to explain Mommies been a bad girl and you know what happens when you're bad? Yes mommy you get a spanking. But mommy you're too big for that. Yes but I've been really bad and had a beer. Don't you ever do that? But how does she explain to her children that the circus has come to town and won't go away. Can you blame her?

She'll be giving free interviews proclaiming Allah's goodness and how fair, salutary and by the book (figuratively and literally) she is not in it for the money. Maybe those who say so are ascribing their motives or make her seem less courageous.

Now let's get back on topic and answer this question. Where would you rather find yourself bent over Dr Dominum lovely chair awaiting his expertise and experience or sitting waiting the Rotan from an amateur? I'll let you be the judge. This is about pain and apprehension and not the gender you prefer!!! Shame on me for ascribing motives.

Hi American Way. You say:

Now let's get back on topic and answer this question. Where would you rather find yourself bent over Dr Dominum lovely chair awaiting his expertise and experience or sitting waiting the Rotan from an amateur? I'll let you be the judge. This is about pain and apprehension and not the gender you prefer!!! Shame on me for ascribing motives.

Not a choice I expect to encounter in real life! There has been little information on the Syariah caning process for males. However, I'll assume that the authorities responsible for Syariah canings are telling the truth about what may happen to Kartika. I'll also assume that the process for males would be similar, with the same restrictions on cane size, arm movement etc., but with a standing posture and a male caner. On that basis it is no contest as far as I can judge. I am certain that 6 strokes from Doctor Dominum, whether 'of the best' or not, would be considerably more painful!

Thankfully Katrika won't be thrown into the can (canned under Malaysia thread) as the judge can or could have as we've been told that the same judge has to a man for drinking alcohol recently. I was amused that that the female prison official has been practicing her strokes by tapping the back of a chair as have native letter writers of Malaysia.

I would hope for the chair sake and Katika's they have not chosen the hardest hitting tennis player to be the caner who has just a few days left of target practice although the state has already determined that she is up to the task. I wonder if they had a counterpart of Dr Dominum to make that judgment.

Someone had to be the first to get it but she wasn't like the girl who appealed and in my eyes is so much less appealing (visually and courage wise and morally) albeit just a waitress and not a model she is ten years younger but nonetheless more culpable for serving beer.

If Kartika was just a few years older she could have in theory felt the bite of Dr Dominum's cane and certainly would for drinking get six of the best. Quite frankly I would take my chances with an elderly lame duck headmaster.

BTW. Perhaps the powers to be who weren't aware until the aborted caning what an unfavorable light it would put them in are also behind her lawyers may she told what to say about desiring privacy which she will likely need more than ever as events seem to be unfolding. I'm sure Kartika has her doubts about the painless caning. Buck up the Ramadah is soon ending. Katrika you're better than that whole lot.

Today is Hari Membuka Puasa -- much feasting -- and then there will be some days for Hari Raya (Aidil Fitri) -- the biggest muslim holiday in Malaysia.

So stay tuned.

Here is an update on Booneville's Nancy. My Space reminds me of pen pals and computer dating. You could never trust the photo the girl sent you. Computer dating (circa 1966) was submitting your data to a service for a fee and getting names of those that were compatible. Were they once in fashion in the UK 40 years ago? Alas they grow up too fast. My Space, Facebook and Tweeter seem all too exhibitionistic for me. Why put your stuff out on the street? Kids will be kids and fossils will be fossils. I'm becoming a dinosaur.


Status: Engaged
Hometown: booneville
Orientation: Straight
Height: 5' 5"
Ethnicity: Latino / Hispanic
Religion: Christian - other
Zodiac Sign: Aquarius
Smoke: No
Education: In college
Occupation: student
Schools
University of Arkansas - Fort Smith
Fort Smith,AR
Graduated: N/A
2009 to Present
Booneville High School
Booneville,AR
Graduated: 2009
Student status: Alumni
2004 to 2009


Nancy faced Saturday school and chose the paddling. Do you have something comparable like this? Saturday School you dont have to report to the OCR data and the students dont lose time in suspension.

http://www.myspace.com/495363621

hollyspringshs.wcpss.net/saturdayschool2.ppt

Kartika may be parlaying a modeling career into an acting one. She won't be the first star that walked from the runway to the silver screen. She has been in the public light before all this happened. She has talent. Is there something wrong with making money? I hope not. It is the American Way.

They're torque because Kartika told them to butt out this is my show. Delaying the flogging was not her idea but it sure has extended her Andy Warhol moment. She is not hogging the headlines they are hogging them to put her in a bad light.

The Malaysians wanted to cast her in bad light by saying she was divorce (she isn't) and unrepentent (she isn't) and remorseless (she isn't). She has this punishment hanging over her and they're torque because they can't do it as hard as they would like to. Kartika: you're better than that whole lot.

My heroes are not saints but flesh and blood human beings. Booneville's Nancy Guillen may have been with child just months after she was paddled so that's was why she was late for her period.

The Principal Office aired in August 2008 and by this picture in January 2009 she may have very well been pregnant but not showing in June when school breaks so I hope she was paddled before then. Sadly, common sense doesnt always prevail when a school knowingly paddles a pregnant girl. Mississippi Corps Teacher (olemiss link) Tiffany Bartlett in 229 footnote Human Rights Watch interview (real name used with consent), Austin, Texas, February 22, 2008 told them I had a pregnant girl get paddled. Corpun 20527 mentioned Tiffany about another incident in the Delta Area of MS. I find no reason to disbelieve her. prof n sagely noted the south has to get its act together policy wise. IMHO this is a school that my fellow citizen and lifetime honorary member should be raising holy hell about that school and should continue to do so with that Memphis Charter (but receiving government money) school for corporally punishing students in the classroom. Unfortunately she consumes her zeal albeit with questionable qualifications in her quixotic quest for banning paddling everywhere. Do you think Renee would paddle Miranda knowingly in that condition? Read the TWP charter when they started. QED (quite enough done)? Dont question my Latin Im Roman Catholic!!!

http://www.hrw.org/en/node/62078/section/7#_ftn229


.
http://www.olemiss.edu/programs/mtc/archives/802



Nancy Pregnant Possibly

Hi American way

The Boonsville Democrat eh!...warning dangerous liberal thinker on the loose..you'll be reading the Huffington Post next week! Or the 'Onion'!!!!!!!

.No seriously , now rifle twirling to music good patriotic stuff- that I got to see.

I did see an impromptu paddle spinning competition whilst in the South . I was challenged - tried and dropped the bxxxdy thing on my foot! First spin! From the bruise next day , I'm sure it weighed more than 200 g....as film buffs will know ....I need lessons from O'Banion.........Perhaps Paula might enlighten us- is paddle spinning against the constitution, just a threat of torture to come , or the true American way ?


You are of course right. The anti's need to concentrate on abuse ., and the sensible majority need to condemn that also. Paddling pregnant girls is hardly going to do anything but score home goals. What part of below the radar don't they understand?

The prolongation of the caning makes her more of a heroine. Think of all the people that encourage her to appeal? I took the liberty of copy and pasting the latest. I love the part about the certificate and the plural officers. What are they going to do alternate strokes or are they convering themselves in case one opts out? It seem like the course was long judging by one the prison official started the practice. I think it will happen soon. There are only so many pages in the Koran.

Wouldn't it be funny if they called the whole thing off? I guess the real question is will this be a precedent and will scores of men and women be whipped? If the whipping is suppose to be a non-event why the enormous publicity from the state monitored media? I don't think the powers to be want to repeat this circus.

The Prisons Department is ready at any time to carry out the punishment meted out on part-time model Kartika Sari Dewi Shukarnor for drinking beer in July last year.

Deputy Home Minister Datuk Wira Abu Seman Yusop said, however, that the punishment could only be executed after the department received the order from the Syariah Court. The department now has trained officers to carry out the whipping and was just waiting for the directive to do so, he told a news conference after a Prisons Management Course certificate presentation here today.

We accept the caning sentence. Kartika is ready to be caned. She has been reading the Quran to give her strength, said her 60-year-old father Shukarno Mutalib. We want to cooperate with the religious authorities. But do it correctly and not the Taliban way, he said, referring to plans to carry out the punishment with only a light cane.

I recently found this quote relish source that some may find of interest.

Kartika Saga Dated

A brief scan of your lat link , American Way , just goes to prove what a three ring circus this is. Whatever else is going on, as I have said on another thread, it 'aint' justice in any shape or form.

Why dont the press , courts and everyone else leave the poor woman alone?What is going on now must rank as cruel and unusual...........

prof n I agree about the delay. Let's get on with it. This demonstration is trying to put a moderate face on it. Will they find a volunteer or will they use a chair? It must be worn out by now.

Call to punish those who question Kartika's caning quoted from this past Saturdays New Strait Times. Maybe they'll do it after the demonstration. They should youtube it to appease their critics.

"We will also hold a seminar on the matter and have a demonstration of how syariah caning is performed with the help of the relevant authorities," said Amidi, who is Abim deputy president."

The seminar, to be held at the state Islamic Religious Department here on Oct 25, will be open to the public, including NGOS and non-Muslims.

Cruel and unusual. Now they're talking about sanctioning those who oppose her caning and can you imagine if Miss Malaysia 2007 above was the demonstration model. Paula wouldn't like that? It's those bathing suit areas again?

Kartika Caning Demonstration

The caning demonstration has been advanced from October 25 to October 15 and a prison official (maybe the same) will be doing it for the benefit (among others) for university students. Oddly enough it is the students who are clamoring for it. While they showing how the lashes are not severe for the world they want to show tham what they're in for if they imbibe. OTOH they are being less cruel and less inhumane by taking on the cause of giving Kartika what she wants. The way it seemd know she will be whipped prior to October 25th or why move the demonstration date up. Two questions: A. Will it be you tubed and B. Will it involved a volunteer.

The demonstration is not only focused on the punishment but other issues as well like Kartikas drinking. Many of our youngsters are involved in more than what Kartika did. Now they will know what the punishment is if they do the same as Kartika. The advocacy group os known as Kelab Sahaba.


Example

My mistake because the October 15th whipping demonstration (presume to have already taken place) won't have the standing of the October 25th demonstration (likely to capture the national media's attention). Some letter writers are saying it still won't happen. The theory is that the wait and the accompanying shame and her repentance means the whipping wouldn't accomplish anything more and the deterrence value will be seen in the whipping.

After Kartika subsequent whippings will not garner as much attention and maybe it will happen less often if indeed they carry through which I believe will happen despite of the growing furor.

It would be a farce if it was a tapping of a chair as one letter writer said. It will have to be at least as severe as the Aceh Province whipping in the square depicted in Corpun (not a walk in the park by any means). IMHO she has been told to be quiet and keep the media away and to say nothing until told what to say after the unannounced sentence is carried out.

There was something about that trip to the police station (her last heavily covered appearance) after her reprieve that spoke volumes about her. She has emerged from obscurity to center stage as a reluctant part time model into a full time (albeit reluctant) profile in courage and more so with the passing of every day.

Hi American Way. Kartika's only worry is that worldwide public opinion might carry the day and cause her caning sentence to fade into history without the caning ever taking place. By far the most sensible outcome. But if that happens she won't get to star in the film of the reconstruction of the event for which she has allegedly signed a lucrative contract, and she'll have to go back to being a housewife and mother, employee and part time model. Rather boring after being at the centre of attention for so long!

The dummy like the goverment are on the throne and it's time to get off the pot. Anyone care to post picture of the mannequin? To submit to authority and without loss of dignoty is no small feat. That's what I mean by the courage to submit. I try to post the picture but to no avail.

Kartika is No Dummy

Hi American Way. You say:

Anyone care to post picture of the mannequin? ......... I tried to post the picture but to no avail

Your every wish is Another_Lurker's command! Here it is, though of course it may disappear without warning if the source objects to my hot linking!

	Azlan Abdul Rahman of the Pahang Mufti Department demonstrating on a mannequin how the caning of Kartika will be carried out - if it is ever carried out!

Having announced that the caning won't really hurt - a bit like a school caning or so they say - the Pahang Syariah authorities have come up with a devious plan to make sure poor Kartika really suffers. She'll have to sit on a freezing cold marble column throughout the punishment!